Should a national ID, similar to Finland. be issued?

[Snake Alchemist]

Not talking about voting at all. Voter fraud is so minor that requiring ID for that is not going to do anything useful and in instances where voter fraud actually occurs in any meaningful amount it is usually sussed out fairly quickly.

I'm talking about things like picking up prescription medication, buying wine, buying spray paint, and getting on a plane. And that's just to name a few. Seems like a free National ID w/ picture given to every citizen would go a long way to giving people access to these things and more.

[DeadEyeDyck]

1. No!!!

[Snake Alchemist]

2. You've made a lot of salient points. nt

[CBGLuthier]

3. Why not. Never understood the reluctance

For that matter lets just issue every citizen over the age of two passports. Let the babies fend for themselves.

[Snake Alchemist]

4. The passport idea is great.

I had one stolen a few years ago and to have it replaced was a pain. Not to mention costly.

[annabanana]

5. Sure. "If you're not doing anything wrong '. .

[TheWraith]

6. No. Why would we want to?

First off, every state already has driver's licenses and multiple other forms of photo ID if you really want some. Many of those are required by state law to be free. Implementing another form is not just redundant, but actually increases the risk of fraud in the short term by requiring the creation and organization of 300,000,000+ pieces of ID, each of which is expected to be legally valid. If one tenth of one percent get issued to the wrong person, that would still be 300,000 potentially stolen identities which wouldn't have happened without the new ID cards.

Not to mention the cost would be staggering, running to tens of billions of dollars if not more.

[Snake Alchemist]

11. There is a whole underclass in the US who do not have licenses.

Many just doesn't work. It has to be ALL.

Somehow many other countries make it work.

[TheWraith]

19. WHY does it have to be "all"?

Sure, there's a lot of people who don't have licenses. Generally in a lot of cases because they don't own or have access to a car. But every state as far as I'm aware also offers things like Sheriff's IDs, which are photo IDs issued free of charge for people who don't need to actually drive. So if you don't drive, don't need an ID to vote, and Social Security Number is sufficient for getting a job, then what, exactly, is the pressing need for photo ID? So you can buy booze?

[Snake Alchemist]

21. Prescriptions? nt

[TheWraith]

23. Not a bad point, but I still don't see the value.

There are still many other forms of ID available that are considered valid for proving your identity when you need to, weighed against the staggering cost of trying to photograph and ID every person in the US. And even then you'll still have millions who don't have a card, either because they're here illegally, or because they're paranoid about government ID, or just because they don't care enough to show up for a photo.

[Snake Alchemist]

24. Perhaps, but the state ID system is garbage.

I took friends from out of state out to dinner the other night and they both were asked for ID when they ordered cocktails even though both were well over the legal limit. Their ID's were from NC and when the waitress saw them she informed us that the manager would have to review them because they don't always serve to out of state ID's. I was floored.

[TheWraith]

30. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy booze.

I just don't think that it's necessarily a very good reason for a federal ID card.

Also, I suspect that your waitress was indulging in polite euphemism: they probably don't always serve to out-of-state IDs because those are likely popular targets for forging by people too young to drink. Why forge a state ID, which anyone will know what it should look like, when you can forge one from a different state where mistakes might not be noticed?

[Snake Alchemist]

32. Who doesn't? :)

I could just see the same bogus argument being used for prescriptions, etc.

The things had embedded holograms in them so either my friends were the greatest ID forgers in history or they were just from out of state.

[TheWraith]

34. True enough, but that's probably why out of state IDs get more scrutiny. nt

[hunter]

7. I like the idea so much I'll take a dozen.

The amazing thing about identification schemes is that they decrease security. All you need is identification, real or fake, and you get a pass. Mr. Secret Policeman is who he says he is. Look, his national ID says he's a regular Joe.

Those who control the making of identity documents can create or delete identities at will.

Real people can be turned into non-persons, and fake identities can be created at will.

Sure, we'd use a national ID against undocumented people, but our masters would also use them against us.

[Snake Alchemist]

12. We already are required to have ID's just to have freedom of movement.

Making it simpler and universal will not change this.

[hunter]

26. I move all over the place without ID.

It's my normal state.

I don't identify with the person in my wallet, so I usually leave it on my desk.

[cbayer]

36. Well, you don't fly or take an Amtrak train or buy alcohol in a lot of places, then.

And you certainly don't cross the border into Mexico or Canada.

And you probably don't drive (although you might get away with this if you do in fact have a license).

The requests for state issued identification have escalated dramatically since 9/11. You may choose to go all over without one, but there are less things you can do.

[libtodeath]

8. No

it is not needed and would just be abused by the racist right.

[cbayer]

9. Until we have addressed and resolved the issue of undocumented people in this

country, I would give it a big no.

Undocumented people already can't get on a plane or a train. They can't drive. They can't buy a bottle of wine at Target.

They live in fear and under the radar. Many of these are good people who have been caught up in a system from which they can not escape.

A national ID would only compound their problems.

[Snake Alchemist]

14. We already have a citizenship program?

How do countries like Canada handle it?

[FarCenter]

10. Yes

Anyone who has had a security clearance is already "in the system", so I don't see any reason for not issuing an ID.

[Stephanie Kopf]

13. Maybe

It might be useful and if it's free, all the better!

[SoCalDem]

15. At age 18 ALL US citizens should be issued a passport..free of charge

No problems voting ,which should also be automatic at age 18..

The automatic voter registration would be as an independent, and the voter would identify with a party in the first primary they chose to participate in,.. It's SO simple

no problems traveling or providing true identification whenever needed for employment/schooling/marriage/whatever.

It's a no-brainer.

citizenship is what it is, and a passport just provides proof...no one is forced to travel or vote, but they have the undeniable proof if they choose to use it.

even an expired passport proves citizenship

Voting in a governor/senate/presidential race should be an option so people did not have to have "correct street address" updated. Polling places should have ballots that did not allow for local/congressional issues, in case someone has a passport, but no proof of current street address.

People move a lot these days, and all that should be required to vote in local/congressional election should be a cell phone bill, a water bill, a letter..anything addressed and delivered to them should do the trick,,,alongside a passport..expired or current.

[Snake Alchemist]

18. That would definitely eliminate a big restriction on travel. nt

[SoCalDem]

22. and it would become a routine thing..like males having to register at 18

even though there is no more draft..

It would become a rite of passage.

People who have previously voted should be grandfathered in and issued passports as well.

The obvious act of voting (where citizenship is required) should be taken as proof-positive that their citizenship has been accepted. The passport is just a fail-safe measure for future voting, and to negate the possibility of future right wing meddling.

[geardaddy]

16. How about a tattoo?

[Snake Alchemist]

20. I hear that's what they do in Finland and Germany. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

17. Western nations all have some form of nationally recognized ID

Its use is mandated.

[VenusRising]

25. Only if we can get their healthcare system, too. n/t

[LanternWaste]

27. ACLU's arguments against:

ACLU's arguments against: http://www.aclu.org/technology-and-liberty/5-problems-national-id-cards

Additionally, it begs the question: what are the precise and consistent (non-aberrations and non-anecdotal) problems that it would solve not currently and specifically addressed by state issued ID?

I see no reason to predicate instituting a national ID system and database simply because another country has one.

[Snake Alchemist]

33. I addressed just one issue in post 24.

I think we should try to emulate what most functioning states do. Our descending banana republic sure isn't working out.

[COLGATE4]

28. We already have a national ID in place

Ever notice how many times and how many places you have to give out your Social Security #?

[suffragette]

29. Looks like it's voluntary in Finland and there has been some controversy about it in the last year

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/New+identity+cards+introduced+from+beginning+of+June/1135266558130

Identity cards are not mandatory in Finland.
Foreigners who live in Finland can use their national passports, and EU citizens can use their national ID cards as travel documents.
Driving licences are also accepted as identification for most purposes.

http://euobserver.com/851/32431
Anti-racism campaigners slam Finnish colour-coded ID cards

[Snake Alchemist]

31. Well, if you are not a citizen of Finland I would not expect an ID to be required. Doesn't seem

like anything unusual.

[suffragette]

38. Not required for citizens of Finland either

and looks like it has not gone over well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_identity_card

Possession of an ID card or any ID document is non-compulsory in Finland, though interactions with officials and companies, like voting, picking up a parcel from Itella offices or buying alcohol when a salesperson suspects buyer to be under 18 or 20 years old, can be difficult or impossible without an ID card, a passport or a driving licence.

~~~

It was initially planned as a general network authentication device for both public and private sector strong authentication needs. In 2009, however, the card was viewed by a government committee as a failure. There has been less than 300000 cards around by 2011 out of population of 5.3 million. The rationale to apply for a card has mostly been traveling abroad. Only few dozen government services have adopted it, and only one bank adopted it as login card to their netbank. All banks in Finland use a national standard called TUPAS, which uses one-time passwords. Banks also provide TUPAS authentication to other Internet-enabled businesses. Since TUPAS requires no dedicated hardware, cost of a card reader and card itself have been main causes in the failure of the eID card.

~~~

In domestic non-electronic identification the driving licence has remained in a leading position, since most of the population have to have a licence anyway, and a driving licence is valid for almost every situation where non-electronic personal identification is needed.

[Snake Alchemist]

39. Don't forget about the National ID #

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identification_number#Finland

Similar to the US in this instance:
"Possession of an ID card or any ID document is non-compulsory in Finland, though interactions with officials and companies, like voting, picking up a parcel from Itella offices or buying alcohol when a salesperson suspects buyer to be under 18 or 20 years old, can be difficult or impossible without an ID card, a passport or a driving licence. "

[suffragette]

42. Looks like they handle voter registration very differently than here (and National ID card

and register id are separate items/issues). Maybe you confused them in posting about national ID cards being "issued" when they have to be bought (and it appears most aren't getting them).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_registration#Finland

Finland

Voter registration in Finland is automatic and based on a national population register. Each citizen is assigned a register ID at birth which contains a six digit date of birth, a century marker, and four other characters to make the ID unique which are mostly random, but one of which also indicates the person's sex. Permanent residents appear in this register even if they are not citizens, but this information is marked on the register. People in the register are legally obliged to notify the register keeper of changes of address. Changing the address in the register automatically notifies all other public bodies (for example the tax district for local taxation and the social security authorities) and certain trusted private ones (e.g. banks and insurance companies) making the process of moving residence very simple. Close to election time a notification is mailed to registered persons informing them of the election and where and when to cast their votes. Only citizens may vote in national elections but all residents can vote in local elections.

[crazyjoe]

35. spray paint ?

[Snake Alchemist]

37. Stupid Home Depot. nt

[cynatnite]

40. It should be voluntary and free of charge...

It should also be an acceptable form of ID everywhere and updating the photo and change of address should also be free. It should also have easy access for everyone who wants one.

on edit: No one should be penalized for not having one either.

[annabanana]

41. Well in THAT case . fine,no prob. . . . .n/t

[Ian David]

43. How about a barcode on our foreheads or the back of our hand? Something with a 666 prefix. n/t