Women in the Military:Is it wrong to say that women (on average) are physically weaker than males?

[BrentWil]

This article, caught my attention.

http://www.standard-journal.com/news/news_ap/article_dc0ed90b-3e12-5f74-aa97-adba1c66b969.html

Basically, the USMC is delaying a standard for women because only 45 percent of the women can meet the standard.

Let me first say, I think that any time one expands their base of possible workers, they greatly expand their chances to gain intellectual capital. I think the addition of female workers to every aspect of the American economy over the last 75 years is one of the driving forces behind the driving economic growth that defined the last 75 years. However, with certain jobs in the military, it seems to have become politically incorrect to state a basic fact of nature. Males, on average, are stronger than females.

I would not argue that for most military jobs, one does not need an extremely high physical standard. However, the linked story above is about a stand of doing 3 pull ups. There are jobs in the military where doing 3 pullups (or harder physical standards) should be required. For example, the Ranger Regiment. I believe the absolute minimum to be in a Ranger unit is to pass a PT test with an 80 percent score on each event , do 6 pull ups, do a 12 mile ruck march in 3 hours and do a five mile run in 40 min. Very few females will be able to meet this standard and I am sure the military will eventually be forced to lower the standards or there will be virtually no females in these units. Is this good for national security? If elite units are forced to drop standards, is that okay? On the other side, if they don't and there are very few females in these units, is the low number number of females a problem? Will they be isolated?

[Jackpine Radical]

1. What do the Israelis do? They've had female combat troops forever.

And other countries with female combatants?

[BrentWil]

3. Actually, they largerly don't server in combat roles in the Israeli Army

And not all jobs are open.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/26/world/middleeast/looking-to-israel-for-clues-on-women-in-combat.html

While more than 92 percent of I.D.F. jobs are now open to women — they are fighter pilots, infantry officers, naval captains and Humvee drivers — just 3 percent serve in combat roles.

I would assume that 8 percent are the more "elite" units.

[Kurska]

2. ...

[Dash87]

7. Nom nom nom

[img][/img]

[yuiyoshida]

26. me too...

[LionsTigersRedWings]

95. do you think the USMC should lower standards to accept more?

or should they keep their requirements the same and those who can't meet the requirements are not allowed to serve?

[Kurska]

98. I think I like delicious popcorn and threads where people yell at each other.

[pinboy3niner]

99. Just for that we're promoting you to Kernel

[Kurska]

100. +1 n/t

[LionsTigersRedWings]

102. oh, haha.

[bobclark86]

4. I can't tell...

How many men can't pass the standard? I need data to decide if women are weaker than men (or the other way around).

BTW, this standard is for a Marine grunt. Not just any paper-pusher in one of those wussy services like the Air Force (I say this as a grandson of a Korean-era Paris Island parachute drill instructor). Paper-pushers have different job descriptions, and different standards. This is for a specific role: a Marine rifleman (rifleperson).

But overall, here is the job of a Marine grunt:
--Kill people that aren't wearing the same outfit as you.
--Don't die.
--Help your co-workers not die.

All of those things require strength. The best way to determine strength is a standard test for everyone. If you clear the bar (no pun intended), you can continue. If not, regardless of gender, you don't.

If you can't do three pullups, and you want to be a Marine grunt, you have two choices: Hit the gym for a month so you can do pullups, or go do something that doesn't involve being able to pull your own weight (again, no pun intended), like flying drones.

[rudolph the red]

5. In the Marines, the ethos is that every Marine is a rifleman,

thus we are all held to the same standard, regardless of MOS. If you can't meet the standard, GTFO.

[BrentWil]

8. THe USMC had different standards for Males and females, currently.

As does the Army.

[rudolph the red]

11. That's a good point,

I guess it's the fact that female Marines weren't previously allowed in infantry positions that makes it so hard for me to wrap my mind around.

[MADem]

107. This is not entirely true, of course, even though it's touted.

There are a few softies on general staffs, who are smart and do their jobs well, and who wrestle themselves into their tummy girdles when they have to stand the odd inspection.

I know, I've worked with them in the past.

I will concede that the enlisted personnel are held to a higher and more unforgiving standard than the officers.

[rudolph the red]

108. Very true

[BrentWil]

6. The general biological differences between males and females are well documented.

For example:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/human-biology/men-vs-women-upper-body-strength.htm

Women's lower body strength tends to be more closely matched to men's, while their upper body strength is often just half that of men's upper body strength. In a 1993 study exploring gender differences in muscle makeup, female participants exhibited 52 percent of men's upper body strength, which the researchers partially attributed to their smaller muscles and a higher concentration of fatty tissues in the top half of the female body [source: Miller et al]. Another study published in 1999 similarly found women had 40 percent less upper body skeletal muscle [source: Janssen]. Even controlling for athletic aptitude doesn't tip the upper body strength scales in favor of the female; an experiment comparing the hand grip strength of non-athletic male participants versus elite women athletes still revealed a muscle power disparity in favor of the menfolk [source: Leyk et al].

I guess the follow question would be, are you okay if the standards stay the same and there are no women in these units?

[bobclark86]

13. I don't give a crap who is in them...

But based on test results, there would still be women there, so your question makes no sense. Standards could stay the same and there would be women -- about half of those who try, but no report if those women who failed were sent to the gym or just sent right home -- in those units. If NO woman (or, say, only 1 in every 10 or so) could pass, this would be a different discussion.

[BrentWil]

15. The article attached...

The story attached stated that below 50 percent of woman could do 3 pull ups during basic training (when you are being worked on day in and day out physically). Thus it was dropped as a standard for graduation (meaning a requirement at the end of basic training) I think it is fair to say that it is a decent assumption that fewer woman could pass the standards of something like the Ranger Regiment. I think it is fair to say that number would look like none to 10 percent.

[LuvLoogie]

14. Just don't call that A-10 pilot a wuss

while he's taking out that tank unit that found your platoon.

[BrentWil]

21. If the AF keeps the A-10 NT

[bobclark86]

23. He's got like 3 inches of titanium armor and a gun...

the size of a Volkswagen. Give him an M4 and a LAW and see how well he does



(Sincerely, the cousin of an A-10 driver)

[jmowreader]

85. Hes also got a cable backup system for his control surfaces...

in case his hydraulics fail. Many, many pushups are required to use this, because if your hydraulics fail there are a shitload of holes in your airplane.

There's a fairly infamous A-10 driver from Poppy Bush's excursion into Iraq who brought the thing home with half a wing shot off and no hydraulics.

[LuvLoogie]

9. If you can't pull your own body weight

up out of a bad spot, you're dead. Or you endanger the colleagues required to assist you.

[BrentWil]

10. Then that is a basic problem for females

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/10/25/why-women-cant-do-pull-ups/

[mythology]

111. I know a woman who started a pull up regimin because of that article

She's capable of doing 7-9 pull ups after a 2 hour workout and got a number of her students (she's a coach) to do so as well. So the article, is to put it charitably, a pile of horse shit linkbait.

It's a matter of training the right muscles to do a pull up. Any reasonable female gymnast can do pull ups for example. If the military isn't able to do that, they should probably look at how they are training. If need be, specifically train with pull up bars, starting with working the negative and building up to doing regular pull ups. But there are far more efficient ways to get over a wall than a pull up under normal circumstances. I'm a guy and if I wanted to climb a wall above my head, I'd run up it as in parkour long before I'd do a straight pull up because the run up uses your legs which are naturally more powerful than the upper body.

My guess would be the biggest problem is that the military has been so used to training with men in mind that they haven't yet figured out that women have different physiology and so would need to be trained differently. Military commands are notoriously slow and resistant to change. Particularly in a case where many of them are likely to have ideas that women aren't as capable and so want to "protect" them from being in war both in that it's a man's world (look at the resistance to women on naval ships) and that women aren't capable of dealing with death/killing.

[BrentWil]

112. Many females can do pull-ups

That isn't what is at issue.

[BainsBane]

47. Unless it's possible to get out of that spot

using the lower body. I wonder if that hasn't been explored because men often have weaker lower bodies than women? I don't know, but it's something to consider.

[Marr]

105. Men don't have weaker lower bodies than women.

The difference in lower body strength between men and women is much less the difference in their upper body strength, but men tend to be stronger in the lower body as well.

[Yo_Mama]

12. No, it's a fact

It can't be wrong to state a fact.

[Shankapotomus]

16. This is largely irrelavent

If a male infantry soldier can't physically do something they have the option of calling for assistance from either fellow soldiers or even machines designed to take over a specific task. Women should be afforded that same luxury.

[BrentWil]

19. Really?

One should look at what the basic combat load is for the average infantry solider. No one has the "luxury" of getting assistance from others to carry that are do basic tasks. Your post lacks any connection with reality.

Linked study to show what someone in the infantry must simply carry.

http://thedonovan.com/archives/modernwarriorload/ModernWarriorsCombatLoadReport.pdf

[Shankapotomus]

69. And who was the model for what that combat load would be?

Men. The military would not equip it's male soldiers with more than they could carry based on the general capabilities of their body type. When that standard was instituted the medium acceptable average combat load was set based on an all male army. Therefore it is biased against women. That figure needs to be reset for an army of both male and female.

[BrentWil]

71. Well I would assume...

There is some practical need to carry more. More ammo, for example, would provide a benefit in combat. If it is life and dealth, ability to go further and carry more does matter.

[Shankapotomus]

73. Right, and based on that mean

some men will live up to it and some men will fail. Notice they are allowed to try under the confines of a parameter built for their gender. The idea being it is not too difficult that most men won't be turned away. But women are discouraged and/or required to qualify on a standard clearly created for an all male army.

[treestar]

91. That doesn't end the argument so much as bring up another one

How have they not come up with a better way than to load soldiers down like that? Any, male or female.

[former9thward]

22. Combat is not a dinner party.

Very often those "options" are not available.

[Marr]

106. You've got to be kidding me.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

17. It is a historical fact that almost every ground battle in the

ENTIRE history of war has been won by the side who could do the most chin-ups.

For example, the famous battle won by Napoleon in Greece, known to local historians as the ulnar-radial war, would have been an utter disaster but for napoleon's general staff demonstrating one handed pull ups.

In the Americas, many battles against the pagan Indian tribes of Pennsylvania and Florida were due to several officers completing a dozen chin-ups while wearing all of their equipment, including their muzzle loading rifles.

During the war between the states, confederate soldiers were handicapped by their inability to beat Custer drunken one man, one armed, one hundred reverse chin ups. With each arm.

[Sheldon Cooper]

18. ...

[BrentWil]

20. Physical fitness has been an important factor in many battles...

Forced marches, carrying a combat load, etc. This requires a certain level of physical strength.

[FBaggins]

33. And that's the distinction that isn't looked at enough.

The question is whether the test is a measure of overall fitness or a test of a required ability.

In other words... if it's expected that a person in the position is likely to have to use those muscles to that extent as part of the job... then it needs to be a requirement that you must pass in order to get the job. If, on the other hand, the test is a proxy for overall fitness - then it should not be a requirement if it is also true that people can be VERY fit and still be unable to pass the test.

I'd say that both cases apply here depending on what role is being filled.

[BrentWil]

37. I mentioned unit type in the OP.. however,

If you are going to do this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointe_du_Hoc

Upper body strength may be important.

[treestar]

92. lol

that about says it all!

[AngryAmish]

24. why not just give steroids to females that can't pass the test?

Test at beginning of boot camp, those who cant pass get steroids and weight training, then test again at end of boot camp. Kinda luke the fat folks get out on soecial diets.

[BrentWil]

25. Because that would be illegal, expansive and hurt people. NT

[AngryAmish]

28. drug laws don't apply to the military

Nothing is safe in the military. This is the Marine Corp.

[BrentWil]

29. Yes they do

Plus you wouldn't want the behavior changes.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

31. Are you talking about the military that routinely prescribes

Uppers for pilots on long flights, downers after the debrief, and uppers for their next flight? Or how both allies and axis forces chewed meth before battles. Or how . . . Never mind. Ignorance can be bliss.

[yuiyoshida]

30. I know you will hate this but a photo is worth.... a thousand words...

And no, she doesn't use steroids.

[1000words]

34. heh

[yuiyoshida]

35. Hello!

So, Seriously though, there are a lot of women bodybuilders who decided not to use Steroids. When you look at them, are you really going to tell me women don't have upper body strength, when most of them could lift weights better than the average guy? Come on...

[1000words]

39. I have no doubt she could drop me like a sack of dirt ...

and I'm a 6', 185 lb rock climber.

She has amazing definition for being natural. Lots of hard work and discipline there.

[yuiyoshida]

42. People are always complaining that women

ARE mostly fat and over weight. But there has been a huge trend for fitness in this country. During the winter, the gyms fill up with women who want a lean muscular physique and some say, the hell with that.. lets go all out and get some nice muscle tone. There is a website on line devoted not to women bodybuilders, but to average women who want more than a peaking bicep.

And they are all American women who put some time into the gym several times a week, and love to work out and look strong. My girlfriend is one of these:

[1000words]

48. Working one's body and seeing results ...

is wonderful for self-esteem and builds confidence, too.

Your girlfriend is gorgeous, btw.

[yuiyoshida]

64. She is a keeper!

[BrentWil]

46. As I stated in the OP

On average. Even at this level, there are differences. For example the world record for bench press for males is 1102.0 lbs. The record for females is 600 lb. Biology still plays a role, even at the highest level.

[yuiyoshida]

52. I know you said On average...

LATELY those averages have changed...more women are hitting the gym especially in winter time. The Sport of Women's bodybuilding has changed, with more women working out and not using steroids and competing. These women stand as inspiration for others to want to go to the gym and put on a bit of muscle. As I stated, there is website of American women who want more than a peaking bicep and will show of their hard earned results from the gym and its just not five or six of them, its in the thousands.

[BrentWil]

70. The average will never be equal

Because it is biology.

[yuiyoshida]

74. Okay...

If you take a male bodybuilder and stick him on steroids you come out with someone like Arnold schwarzenegger. If you take a female bodybuilder and pump her up with steroids she will never look as huge as Arnold. But... she will be stronger than the average guy in the gym. No a woman will never be equal...we do live longer than you guys... MAYBE that is a win for us, don't you think?

I still wonder how Japanese men and women live to be over 100 years old in Japan. They say its a simple diet of fish and rice but that must not be true any longer. Recently they have discovered that fish pills no longer do anything for the body. And yet.... there are still some 102 year old Japanese men and Women.

[1000words]

75. Weight to strength ratio

You are correct if the measure is weight to strength ratio. Children are actually far stronger than both men and women, in that regard.

Otherwise, pure brute strength belongs to men.

[yuiyoshida]

77. yeah but come on...

I wish you guys lived as long as us...but oh well. Strength does not matter in the end. Its longevity. Those who live best live well and win.

[LionsTigersRedWings]

96. how come those women don't sign up?

[yuiyoshida]

97. Thats a good question ..

Just a thought, most people who can afford to go to the gym, probably have jobs. Those who don't have jobs end up serving their country.. which is a job. I guess after bootcamp, they will time to use a gym.

[BrentWil]

41. Women can clearly become world class athletics

But even at that level, there are clear differences. Look at track and field world records and compare male and female records, for example.

[pnwmom]

44. You believe her that she doesn't use steroids. I don't.

And there are other possibilities, too.

[yuiyoshida]

49. There has been a trend in the sport of bodybuilding where

Some women do not want to use steroids. I know some men can not wrap their brains around the idea that woman can simply not only look strong but can beat the average guy in arm wrestling or weight lifting, but its true. I don't know if you fit into that category or not, but it doesn't matter. There are women who are hitting the gym, and working out hard with the help of their fellow gym mates, or professional trainers and getting strong. Believe it or not, a woman working out can get as strong or stronger than the average guy on the street.



She is one of them.

[pnwmom]

53. Of course a woman working out can get stronger than the average guy

on the street -- who most likely isn't working out.

But I still doubt that that woman isn't using something extra to get that physique. Body builders, both men and women, are notorious for that.

And, by the way, what is the name of the woman in the photo? Do you know?

[yuiyoshida]

55. The female bodybuilder is

Denise Masio.

[pnwmom]

57. You might be interested in this article about women who use

steroids for body building and those who don't.

http://www.naturallyintense.net/blog/bodybuilding/female-bodybuilders-what-do-they-look-like-when-they-dont-use-drugs/

[yuiyoshida]

62. Thanks and yes,

I am aware of the differences. The thing is the trends are changing. There are ton of women hitting the gyms now. I don't know why a woman would join the Marine corps if she was not fit, when they know that is part of the criteria. Despite that, most American women are hitting the gyms and fitness centers. Even during times when employment was bad, there were people in California out running blocks and finding ways to stay fit. Running on the beaches, going to places like VENICE BEACH where there is gym equipment at the beach to use. There are places to do chin ups, and weights that can be rented. People in California know about fitness..and been doing it for years.

[pnwmom]

63. The woman in the picture looks like a healthy body builder,

from what I can see.

But Denise Masino looks like a steroid user -- as most of the women with her kind of body are.

My son's GF goes to the gym every day and works out alongside him (doing her own thing, of course). And she looks wonderful -- but nothing like Denise.

http://thinksteroids.com/articles/dbol-women-anabolic-steroids/

Now that we’re vaguely on the same page, we can go over some basics regarding female anabolic use. It’s pretty common to hear people say things like “even fitness competitors use a low dose of ‘Var or Winny here and there…maybe some Clenbuterol”. This is absolute bullshit. Competition level doses I’ve seen are actually much higher than people think… basically around 10 mgs of Anavar (never less), stacked with an equal amount of Winstrol, and a bunch of Clenbuterol. I can’t remember the last time I’ve read a female bodybuilder or fitness girl’s drug program and not seen Growth Hormone in it- usually about 2IU’s a day (interestingly, IGF-1 hasn’t really busted onto the female anabolic scene yet, nor has MGF or the other peptides). Thyroid hormone is used in nearly every woman’s precontest phase, and doses can get pretty outrageous here. Proviron is pretty big when they can get it, and most of them take the same dose I do (25-50mgs/day). Some take more. Primobolan, both tabs and injectable, are popular with women, when there’s enough cash around to afford it. Most of the upper level competitors usually don’t have that kind of cash when they first break onto the national scene, though. Why? Because breast implants are expensive- and the last show I went to, there were only four that weren’t fake. And I don’t mean four women, I mean four breasts.

In terms of their off season drug intake, female bodybuilders differ from their figure and fitness sisters. Typically their doses are only slightly higher, but they are much more experimental with compounds they will use. Testosterone propionate, Trenbolone Acetate, Oral Turinabol, Deca-Durabolin, and occasionally Equipoise are used by female bodybuilders. I need to be totally honest, and say that if the woman didn’t start off as exceptionally pretty, these drugs, in the dosages commonly used by top level female bodybuilders, will not win them any beauty contests. Still, even at the top levels of competition or in photo shoots, when their make-up and hair is done, there are a lot of beautiful female bodybuilders, who haven’t lost their looks. However, what’s typically seen in the lower levels is a different story. Girls who are trying to break into the professional ranks, who haven’t done it after several tries, typically turn to much higher drug intakes, and sometimes ruin their femininity.

SNIP

It’s my hope that this article has shed some light on a somewhat taboo subject, and maybe even helped to provide a warning and some safety for women considering the plunge into the world of anabolics. They can be safely used, and I’ve seen them produce incredible results in many women…but I’ve also seen psychological compulsion drive their use to the upper limits and coaches who serve to convince their clients to use them far too haphazardly, without thought to the consequences. And that’s something I hope to see change, maybe just a bit, by writing an article like this. Women run a far greater risk from the use of anabolic use than men do, and seeing the way it’s escalated in the past few years (on the women’s side of things) makes me cringe. A sensible approach needs to be undertaken; with caution replacing the current mindset of random experimentation and listening to “gurus” or even worse, internet personas and message-board-experts…I truly hope that I’ve contributed to a future shift in thinking about women and anabolics, in at least some small way.

[yuiyoshida]

65. As I have said there have been many women

in the sport of bodybuilding who have decided that steroids was not the way to go. Many of them have stated publicly they are no longer using steroid or have chosen not to use them at all. They have formed an organization with the hopes of publicly educating people about steroid use and showing that they need not take the drugs. This of course does not mean that all women competing in bodybuilding championships are not using them. Of course they are.

In sports such as Major League Baseball steroid use is illegal. We know this about Sami Sosa and Mark Mcgwire during their home run streak they were on steroids. The same could be said obviously with San Francisco Giant Barry Bonds.

The sport of Bodybuilding seems to be slow in curtailing steroid use, though I think its starting to catch on with some wanting to have contestants tested.

[pnwmom]

68. Right. But that photo of Denise Masino didn't prove your point. I accidentally

clicked on a googled piece about her -- not knowing I was about to see more than I ever wanted to see. She's either using steroids or something . . .

[yuiyoshida]

79. I kind of know her..

We have been in touch on and off though the years. If she says she is not using than am I to call her a liar? Hmmm..

[pnwmom]

81. google her name (Masino, not Masio) and "steroids."

You might see the picture I saw. . . . but you might not want to, if you might run into her again. It's a picture that would be hard to "un-see."

[PlanetaryOrbit]

54. Maybe because steroids have seriously harmful medical side effects?

Plus, if some steroids can make people go into a rage, you don't want those people near machine guns.

[AngryAmish]

66. many, many military types use sterois

Same with law enforcement.

[valerief]

27. I didn't know the military had to box. nt

[dipsydoodle]

32. Assuming US Marines to be the equivalent of UK Paratroopers

then they have "milling". These days I think they wear gloves : they didn't in the sixities.

Its one minute of straight punching - no ducking, diving, weaving whtatever just standing your ground.

[rrneck]

61. A friend of mine used to kick box for his regiment in the 82nd.

When we sparred I hated to see that right foot coming. It was like getting hit with a tree trunk.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

36. Is it wrong to say women are smarter?

Is it wrong to say women are more crucial to continuation of human species than men?

[karadax]

38. Army has done some studies on relationship of gender and injuries

High injury rates among female army trainees: a function of gender?

BACKGROUND: Studies suggest that women are at greater risk than men for sports and training injuries. This study investigated the association between gender and risk of exercise-related injuries among Army basic trainees while controlling for physical fitness and demographics.

METHODS: Eight hundred and sixty-one trainees were followed during their 8-week basic training course. Demographic characteristics, body composition, and physical fitness were measured at the beginning of training. Physical fitness measures were taken again at the end of training. Multivariate logistic regression analysis was used to evaluate the association between gender and risk of injury while controlling for potential confounders.

RESULTS: Women experienced twice as many injuries as men (relative risk [RR] = 2.1, 1.78-2.5) and experienced serious time-loss injuries almost 2.5 times more often than men (RR = 2.4, 1. 92-3.05). Women entered training at significantly lower levels of physical fitness than men, but made much greater improvements in fitness over the training period.In multivariate analyses, where demographics, body composition, and initial physical fitness were controlled, female gender was no longer a significant predictor of injuries (RR = 1.14, 0.48-2.72). Physical fitness, particularly aerobic fitness, remained significant.

CONCLUSIONS: The key risk factor for training injuries appears to be physical fitness, particularly cardiovascular fitness. The significant improvement in endurance attained by women suggests that women enter training less physically fit relative to their own fitness potential, as well as to men. Remedial training for less fit soldiers is likely to reduce injuries and decrease the gender differential in risk of injuries.

This seems to say that women can do it, they just need a longer time period to properly train to that level without sustaining injury.

[pnwmom]

43. They have less muscle mass, in general. But saying they're "weaker"

depends on your definition.

Their hearts, for example, tend to be stronger, at least till past menopause.

And how many men have ever managed to push a baby out through a tiny hole between their legs?

[BainsBane]

45. If the USMC believes that an important standard

It needs to apply to everyone. If half of women can't pass the marine corps test, they can enlist in the army where pull ups aren't necessary. However, the marine corps might also consider if there are other means of doing whatever they think is necessary that requires upper body strength. Women often have greater lower body strength then men. So is there a way to use the lower body to extricate oneself from a situation that would require a pull up type action?

[BrentWil]

51. Males are still stronger in the lower body than females, on average.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8477683

iber areas and type were determined from needle biopsies and muscle areas by computerized tomographical scanning. The women were approximately 52% and 66% as strong as the men in the upper and lower body respectively.

[BainsBane]

82. Hips give women more stability

Do you know that trick where you put a chair sideways against the wall and ask both men and women to bend over and pick it up? Men aren't able to but women are. It has to do with the distribution of body mass, or something. Anyway, hips are supposedly the determining factor.

[EvilAL]

83. That doesn't change how strong they are.

Some people can't stand with their toes and nose touching the wall and lift their heels up without falling over.

well, falling backwards off balance.... it's not an automatic ass-plant.. heheh

[rrneck]

59. I think it would be difficult to make those distinctions.

There may be lots of places in the armed services where the physical demands are not as great, but active duty soldiers engaged with an enemy need to be able to carry at least one third of their body weight and up to seventy percent of their body weight to be combat effective. The equipment all weighs the same, so there are certain size and strength requirements that cannot be avoided. A one hundred pound person simply cannot carry a fifty pound load out as well as a two hundred pound person.

Every Marine is a rifleman, which is to say they expect the cook to be able to gear up and move out if he has to. It would be very difficult to have women in the Marines.

[VanillaRhapsody]

60. RARELY do women body builders get calf implants....but the men do...

women's legs are naturally more muscular than mens....they have stronger lower body's BUT it is theorized that one day...women long distance runners will pass men...as a few more generations pass and the cream of the crop of running ability rises from the ranks...women also carry more water...they dehydrate slower and that will also play a role in the increase.

[alphafemale]

50. The ability to scale a wall should be the test.

Most women would scale a wall by throwing an ankle up.

If you can't climb up and over a twelve foot wall in a blur of seconds?

You are not meant for the infantry.

Period.

[karadax]

58. Don't forget the 50 lbs of equipment in your rucksack plus 40 of optional armor.

I don't know if marines wear much of the body armor so we can omit that. It might be doable if it's just slinging yourself over a wall. You + 50 lbs is a completely different experience.

[alphafemale]

84. You have to be able to physically DO the job.

There should be no waivers or compromises. I don't know that three pull-ups is an accurate evaluation of someone's ability in real life.

But I do agree that certain physical standards should not be lowered for elite fighting units.

You can't have a weak link.

[mike_c]

56. it is correct to say that physical strength is proportional to the cross section of skeletal muscles

All other things being equal, individuals with larger skeletal muscles are generally stronger than individuals with similar, but smaller muscles, regardless of gender. The qualifying "generally stronger" comes from some of the other factors that can influence "strength." Measured solely as the force of contraction, larger skeletal muscles can exert more pull than smaller muscles. But measured as something like "lifting ability," "kinetic speed," or "striking force application," things are not always so simple. There is more to biomechanics than cross sectional muscle strength.

[Orsino]

67. Pull-ups are not a combat task.

When Marines are ordered to take or defend turf, they don't do it with a pull-up bar.

Military reliance on simple physical tests of questionable relevance is not news to anyone who has ever served. It's a time- and money-saver, but doesn't directly measure what troops are expected to do in what the military likes to claim are its most vital activities, toward which all training is allegedly bent.

[BrentWil]

72. Well it is difficult to simulate combat, physical standards do matter.

Ability to ruck, upper body strength, etc are important standards. As anyone who has been in a combat arms units knows.

[Orsino]

86. Difficult to standardize, maybe.

But rucking up and completing some sort of obstacle course doesn't sound complex, once such complicated courses could be designed and built.

[CTyankee]

76. Yet, ANOTHER post on this story...my goodness, why is that???

[Feral Child]

104. GENDER WARS!

The DU/GD Reality-Show.

This time it's the Studlies Vs the Frails.....

[Nine]

109. What are you talking about?

DUers have ALWAYS been this interested in the number of pullups Marine recruits have to perform. Don't you remember the numerous threads this topic has always generated over the years?

[Deep13]

78. I'd agree, but I'm afraid my wife will beat me up.

[haele]

80. Well - no and yes.

Women may be physically weaker than men in upper body strength, but there are some types of activities that require leverage, balance, and flexibility rather than strength that women on average do better than men on average.

With training and practice, the average woman can get to the point that she can accomplish the same strength requirements tasking that the average man can do - using different physical maneuvers that the man would do. I've done it myself, when my billet required me to be able to physically unhook, remove, and carry pieces of equipment (that could weigh up to 150 lbs) 80 yards and one deck away while underway to get them to the test bench and back by myself - because even though they could require a two-man lift, they needed to be fixed and re-installed within a couple hours and I was the not only the work center lead petty officer, I was the only tech on shift. There was no one to call in time to help. Like all the other female techs, I managed.

Now the question becomes, does a 0311 MOS (Marine Infantry) want their Marines coming out of boot camp and basic infantry training just shy of the physical capabilities that Special Forces requires.

If that's the case, it will take much longer - probably closer to 24 weeks - for the average woman to get into the shape needed to meet the 0311 requirements.

As for the isolation issue - much of the personal safety has to do with how the command views women doing "a man's job". My division underway had two good Chiefs and a great DO. They made sure that everyone knew that we were a team, the work needed to get done, and the work didn't care if the tech doing it had a dick or boobs. If any of the crew was messed with, it didn't matter who did it, the hammer came down. So my division, at least, experienced little to no sexual harassment in a department where there were 48 men and 4 women. It helped that the departmental slackers and goofs were all men.

But one thing that is never really pointed out, and I don't think it's changed that much since 1979 when I got to my ship. In the military, when working the traditional "Man Jobs" (security and engineering), because they were usually smaller and appeared to be softer, if not weaker, women always had to work half again as hard and show more dedication to the quality of their work than the average man did to get the same respect.

Haele

[pipi_k]

87. On average, and perhaps

taking random people off the street, equal number of men and women and having them do strength tests, then yes...I would guess that men ARE stronger than women.

If, however, a woman had strength training and went up against a random guy, she might be stronger. Or not. I don't know.

I'm a pretty big female, but in all my years I have never been able to outdo a man in the strength department. I just do not have the required muscle mass to compete.

[etherealtruth]

88. No

Is it wrong to say that the military requires more than upper body strength?

Is it wrong to say that in our most recent wars, that there has been no such thing as "front lines" ... that most of the the troops stationed in these war zones ... are de facto combat troops?

Is it wrong to say I no more want my daughter, than my sons to fight in these crazed unnecessary wars?

[treestar]

89. Depends.

There are different areas of strength. Somehow the ones that favor males have come to mean "strong."

[firsttimer]

90. Combat plays on your mind as well as the body

If a woman can survive both , no reason why she shouldn't be able to fight .

If she's okay with no hot water or shower for a week , carrying 80 pounds on her back not including rifle .

Let her have at it.

Reality is a slap in the face sometimes .For men and women who enlist in infantry

[LanternWaste]

93. no more, nor no less wrong than to point out the achievements and successes of tens of thousands of

no more, nor no less wrong than to point out the achievements and successes of tens of thousands of women in combat roles in the Soviet Union during WW2. (Heller, Utopia in Power)

From ace snipers, to guerrillas, to ace tank commanders, to ace pilot to the common infantry unit holding the line during the German Moscow Offensive, female combat personally were critical to many tactical successes and arguably, critical to the larger strategic victory (Kennedy, Rise and Fall of the Great Powers).

[stevenleser]

94. I don't know about who is stronger, but the services should determine requirements

for jobs that reflect what a person will be required to do in that job and then anyone who wants that job should be required to pass.

I don't know who would be stronger if both sexes were raised the same way and so the question about "which sex is physically stronger" is not one I feel able to answer.

[anasv]

101. which way

My understanding is that in terms of "brute strength" men are stronger ON AVERAGE, but in terms of endurance, women are stronger ON AVERAGE. No one should be denied an opportunity to qualify for a position because of some average for the group they are in.

[3catwoman3]

103. Slightly off topic perhaps...

...but here is an observation that has long intrigued me. The differences in male and female upper body strength are pretty clear, although there are individual exceptions for assorted reasons.

For many years, any number of careers were regarded as unsuitable for women because of physical strength requirements, real or perceived - "Oh, no, little lady. You can't be a telephone repair person because you can't possibly handle a 30 pound tool belt.".

I came of age in the late 60s-early 70s, when many of those careers were finally being opened to us - fire fighter, telephone repair, etc, etc.

I'm a nurse (peds nurse practitioner, to be specific). No one ever told a 5 foot, 90 pound woman that she couldn't go into nursing because she might have to log roll an obese stroke patient all by herself.

[Adam-Bomb]

110. As an ex-infantryman, I have to chime in

As much as I dearly love and respect women, I cannot in true conscience
say that ladies would be able to hack it being grunts.

It is an ass-kicking life in peacetime, much less in war time. Grunts aren't
body builders, they are all "bone and gristle." Too much weight, even muscle,
makes one a straggler, not an asset. So what you would have would be skinny women,
which would work out to, what, 100 to 120 pounds soaking wet, at best. That's not enough
to tote all the crap a grunt's got to tote.

I don't question that women have the proper spirit and mind set; look how well the females
already in the military perform. I just don't believe they could physically perform in the
Infantry, sorry.