Fried Chicken Is Soul Food & Should Be Honored And Embraced As Such

[KittyWampus]

The whole argument against acknowledging fried chicken as representing Soul Food reminds me of the time when many lefties wouldn't use the word "liberal" because a few loud mouths in politics/media decided to make it a dirty word.

Rather than allowing some antiquated, negative attitudes dictate your perception of what fried chicken is or is not in relation to soul food and African American cookery and culture, it's a good idea to LEARN something about it.

How it got onto the Soul Food plate and what it signifies being there.

Food is one part of of my Anthropological interests. What food people eat tells us a lot about them.

Food also has a lot of subconscious "stuff" attached to it. We often eat by habit and find emotions attached to food. So it's kind of easy to stir up a fuss when critically inspecting the food a person or a people eat.

Last month I found a new book in my local library by Adrian Miller entitled "Soul Food". It's a good, interesting read. He has a great writing style. Very engaging.

There is a whole chapter on chickens and fried chicken in his book. It's so interesting. On Amazon you can open the book and read part of the chapter on fried chicken. He also included recipes, by the way.


Here is a short blurb from Miller's website on how one might talk about ANY food being considered as Soul Food-

In Soul Food–really a love letter to African American cooks–I create a representative soul food meal, and I write a separate chapter on each part of the meal. So, there are chapters on fried chicken, greens, black-eyed peas, etc. In an informative and entertaining way, I discuss the history of each food item and answer the following questions:

What is the food item?
How did it get on the soul food plate?
What does the food item mean for African American culture?

[Cha]

1. I started to write several times the other night when

everyone was talking about it but since I'm not Black I don't know how African Americans feel about this. It seems amazing to me.. but, then why is it being apologized for all the time. Could be the context.. Like when racists pass emails with the President eating watermelon to make sure their racist supporters know the President is Black and they're assholes?

I found this.. Adrian Miller's book on Soul Food, too.. I hadn't read the author of your book yet.. I just googled Black History-Soul Food!

Godfather of soul food

Local author traces untold story of underrated cuisine

snip//

By Peter Jones

One can tell a lot about a people and their history by their food – and African American cuisine is no exception.

Just ask Adrian Miller, whose new book Soul Food: The Surprising Story of an American Cuisine, One Plate at a Time charts the history of black American cooking from the shores of west Africa to the urban soul food centers that continue to serve the often-controversial cuisine of American slaves.

“If you really go deeper into the history of soul food, it’s really the food of migrants from the Deep South taken to different parts of the country,” said Miller, a 1987 graduate of Smoky Hill High School in Aurora.

Miller took up the challenge of tracing soul food’s history and launching its spirited defense after realizing the story had never really been told in a comprehensive way.

snip//

His next book will be a history of black cooks in the White House.

During February’s Black History Month, The Villager recently spoke with Miller about the saga of one of America’s least appreciated cuisines.


Adrian Miller wrote what he believes is the first comprehensive book on the history and culture of soul food.



https://www.villagerpublishing.com/godfather-soul-food/

I Liked him on FB. Thanks for your OP, Kitty~

[awoke_in_2003]

21. Chicken greens and cornbread...

food almost everyone could love. Life without fried chicken woud be boring for me.

[Cha]

50. Everybody eats fried chicken.. I use to until I

started a vegan diet for my health. I loved fried chicken and soul-food.. I used to live in Florida.. I have a pic of me and my kids at a picnic scarfing on fried chicken in North Carolina. Good Times!

[awoke_in_2003]

61. That is why I said almost everyone...

I know vegans don't eat chicken, and I respect their choice- even if it isn't for me.

[merrily]

115. Exactly. The context was everything.

And the degree to which that particular meal has been stereotyped.

"Let's honor all African Americans in our Northern California private school by serving what we assume slaves in the South before Emancipation just loved eating."


I'm surprised they didn't think having it served by people dressed as antebellum African American house servants be an appropriate way to celebrate Black History Month, too.


There was a reason that people circulated a photo of the White House with watermelons growing on the lawn and it was not to honor Black History. I wonder how much cornbread the President's mom actually grew up eating. Or, for that matter, his dad. Or his stepdad.

[The_Commonist]

2. I think it's yet another symptom of Outrage Society.

There are people (more and more these days) who simply need to be outraged all the time. And then they get outraged that you don't get as outraged about something as they do. It's gotten really boring. Actually, I think some of those people need to feel outrage or they don't feel anything at all.

I'm done with outrage. But I love fried chicken! With mashed potatoes, collards and black-eyed peas. Yum! I'm not black and I'm not from the south, but I don't care. I loves me some soul food...

[Puzzledtraveller]

186. ^^this^^

You nailed it.

[wandy]

3. I really don't know how I feel about this...........

Yes, the whole fried chicken thing can be intended as an insult. On the other hand, food can be a comfort thing. If it's from you're family background, who's to argue.

Here, a cold and snowy day and the crock pot nicely doing up this....

Pasta fazool
If that ain't Italian Soul Food, I don't know what is.
Hay, me Mudder thought me how to make this.
If somebody else's Mudder thought em to make fried chicken, greens, black-eyed peas........
I'll trade recipes with you.

[Warpy]

10. And there are as many recipes for it as there are cooks

Mine was based on "The Vegetaran Epicure" and remains the best one I've ever tasted, beany and garlicky.

These days the pasta has to be cooked separately and added just before serving, not quite the same, but corn pasta turns into corn mush very quickly.

[wandy]

17. Ahhhhh, so true.........

Although as I have "matured?", meat is more of a seasoning, finely chopped smoked bacon is a requirement. NOT bacon bits!
Small amount when compared to the rest.
Toward the end,remember crock pot, green beans. Fresh is preferable but frozen will do.
Pasta is always cooked separately, with the sauce placed over. That would be a family thing.
Something between regular pasta sauce and soup.
Salt only at the table. Garlic? HA... chop till ya drop!

[Lifelong Protester]

179. I "lost" that cook book somewhere!

I had bought a copy for my mom, and when she passed, I took it, but now I can't find it! I guess I need to see if I can buy a used copy. They had a green bean and sour cream recipe that was superb.

[BainsBane]

4. Is this more of how white people tell black people racism really isn't a problem?

And they just shouldn't be so touchy? Throw in some watermelon too to make it really "soul food," all while telling black folks you're "honoring" their heritage. Throw in a pick up game of basketball for good measure.

For context: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024468868

[KittyWampus]

11. You know, Soul Food is an interesting subject. Why close down that discussion?

So some people can pretend to be an authority?

So some can pose as the ultra-liberal to impress?

So everyone can get outraged some more?

How about stopping for a moment to dig a little deeper and find out some pertinent information regarding:

Soul Food, in general

Fried Chicken, specifically.

I learned a whole lot about Chicken and Fried Chicken as it relates to African American culture.

But of course, others DU'ers are the perennial experts on every topic that is every brought up.

[BainsBane]

13. I do not claim to be an expert

I would suggest the experts in the experience of racism are those who experience it, folks like MrScorpio who wrote the OP to which you seem to be responding.

My concern is that OPs like these send a message to African American members that their concerns are not seen as valid by too many on this site. Large numbers have already left this site feeling continually disrespected. I have an interest in not allowing that to continue to happen. I have an interest in letting them know that not every white person thinks they know more about what is racist than African Americans themselves because an increasingly white website does not represent America or the Democratic Party.

You want to tell folks not to be uptight about stereotypical meals, that is your choice. I'm going to tell you what I think about it. If you don't want to be exposed to contrary ideas, you probably shouldn't post on public message boards.

[JustAnotherGen]

30. I'll have to find MrScorpio's thread

And thank you for at least trying. For me - soul food is fresh killed rabbit stew and venison roast . . . But that's what black folks that owned their own land in Alabama handed down to me. What do I know though.

[BainsBane]

48. I linked to it

In my first post in this thread.

[JustAnotherGen]

120. I found it

His gives whole history. - not food history. Check out post 91 on that thread - it decimates the ops "oh fiddle dee" approach to the subject. But hey! I made my mother in laws "shepherd's pasta" last night with home made orecchiette so my perception of southern food, soul fod, and Sunday dinner is changing.

[Sheldon Cooper]

32. Agreed.

White folks don't get to tell black folks what is racist and what isn't. (I assume the OP is not a POC, but I could be wrong.)

[quinnox]

5. Its political correctness run amok

The fried chicken thing, I love it, and like normal people I don't think of racism when I eat it.

[BainsBane]

6. The outrage machine definitely is in full gear

This for example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024457003

[sweetloukillbot]

29. A friend recently posted pictures of his friends at Roscoe's Chicken & Waffles in LA

They were flashing gang signs. It may be good comfort food (I love going to the local soul food restaurant for fried chicken and cheese grits) but there is definitely a racial context that some people see to soul food.

[gollygee]

33. Did anyone anywhere say eating fried chicken is racist?

The question is whether it's racist to "honor" African Americans with a meal of stereotypical foods.

[Art_from_Ark]

65. Well, I attended an American festival here in Japan recently

and on the menu, there were-- get this-- hot dogs, hamburgers, and even apple pie.

[JI7]

119. those foods are not used against americans in a bigoted way

[Art_from_Ark]

123. Are you sure?

I've been told that the only interesting thing about me is that I prefer land-based meat to seafood.

[whopis01]

156. So would you agree that

using a food that reinforces a bigoted image (such as the only thing interesting about you is that you prefer land-based meat) as a way of "honoring" a racial or ethnic group is, at best, in very poor taste?

[840high]

57. I love it, too. Racist? Nope.

[WinkyDink]

7. I think Whites need to back off the pseudo-"honoring" thing.

[Warpy]

9. Yeah, we just don't get it.

Figgered that out decades ago.

[KittyWampus]

16. So you think Mr. Miller only wants black people to buy or talk about his book

and the book's subject?

[kwassa]

35. I think you are diverting Mr. Scorpio's OP down an irrelevant alley.

The question is not whether fried chicken and watermelon are soul food, but whether the descriptor of them is used in a racist manner. The answer of that is clearly yes.

You are off on some really bullshit tangent, to derail that conversation, in my humble opinion.

[jmowreader]

94. That can definitely backfire on you

The Army celebrates those "heritage" months, like African-American month, Hispanic month, Women's month, Asian and Pacific month...when I was in Berlin from 1986 to 1992 the African-Americans got a full month and everyone else only got a week.

We had a colonel whose career was checkered with minor faux pas. Some of them were pretty entertaining. Anyway, she got the idea to have a Real Native American give a 20-minute speech at the Native American Heritage Week luncheon. He got up and explained, in no uncertain terms, just how fucked the Bureau of Indian Affairs has always been.

[handmade34]

127. ...

[Warpy]

8. It's one of the things my mother, who hated cooking, did well

Fried chicken is one of my favorite things, the only thing I'll cheat with and pay the consequences later with a smile on my face.

Had it been fried chicken, greens, black eyed peas, and the tomatoes and okra I grew to loathe on cafeteria plates, they'd likely be fine. It was the watermelon out of season that did it.

Fortunately, I haven't seen those horrible black folks + watermelon stereotype illustrations in a very long time, not since the early 60s. For black folks of a certain age, the whole thing had to hurt, even though hamfisted young white folks who weren't there thought the meal would be honoring a good culinary tradition instead of upholding a bad social stereotype.

[ScreamingMeemie]

12. Here you go, from less than a month ago.

[KittyWampus]

14. So Americans shouldn't acknowledge, talk about or eat soul food?

Or if we do, we have to do behind closed doors.

All we can do is scour the internet for the stupidest examples who would find some insulting no matter what because that's their juvenile level of behavior?

[JI7]

18. the history of how it's been used in a negative racist way should also be acknowledged

and considered.

i don't think anyone would oppose teaching more about these issues.

[KittyWampus]

151. Where in my OP do even vaguely suggest that negative shouldn't be acknowledged?

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. This stupidest example hit the national newswire...no scouring was needed.

Americans should acknowledge the very real feelings of their fellow Americans and quit telling them how to feel.

Thank you.

[tblue37]

63. You can eat it and talk about --just don't use it as a STEREOTYPE to LABEL African Americans

the way that school did.

And don't try to pretend that it wasn't being used as a stereotype, because it was.

Even if the people who did that did not realize that it was insulting, it still was insulting, because those people did not think it important enough to learn what would and would not be insulting.

[liberalmuse]

83. Thank you.

I'm glad I saw your post before exiting this thread in disgust. Yet more people playing the innocent "non-racist" in order to downplay racism.

WTF do white people discussing soul food or a white person commenting that they eat fried chicken and do not associate that with racism (There is none, because you're WHITE. Context and history is everything in this case) have to do with the demeaning caricature of "a person of color eating fried chicken and watermelon". Nothing. It does not negate or whitewash that caricature, or the fact that there is still one huge problem of racism in America.

Worse, though, is that now, people are trying to look away from it or distract from it by scoffing at how, "politically correct" we've become, as if being mindful of your fellow human beings experience by not saying stupid, insensitive, meaningless, thoughtless garbage were something to sneer at.

[Scootaloo]

116. You're missing the point

Yes, pretty much everyone who has ever put it in their mouths likes soul food (I could pass on the black-eyed peas, personally, but whatever.) Yes, that certainly includes many black people in America.

Where the line is crossed is where a team of white people slap it all together as "this is what black people eat!" Yeah, plenty of them do. Plenty pf them also eat grilled steak, or vegan raw foods, or a fast food diet, or whatever else in the world they want to eat.

That's the problem, where a cuisine is being used as shorthand for racial identity, by people not of that race. Even if well-intentioned it is shallow and can easily be offensive, especially when it is paired with a history of the same iconography being used to disparage those people.

Serving up a soul food menu during Black History month isn't problematic. Lighting the neon sign over it that says "This is how we're recognizing black history month!" is, because of how shallow and brainless it is.

[KittyWampus]

153. So when Leslie Calhoun (the NBC cafeteria's African-American chef) tried to do such a menu

it should be fine then, right?

Except it wasn't.

In February 2010, NBC‘s New York City office cafeteria served a soul food meal to celebrate Black History Month. ?uestlove, an African-American drummer who plays for NBC’s “Late Night with Jimmy Fallon,” took a picture of the soul food menu placard which listed fried chicken, collard greens with smoked turkey, black-eyed peas, white rice and jalapeño cornbread. He tweeted the photo to his million-plus Twitter followers saying “Hmm HR?” NBC soon removed the sign and apologized to anyone who was offended. Ironically, the entire menu was planned by Leslie Calhoun, the cafeteria’s African-American chef who had lobbied NBC’s management for eight years for permission to celebrate Black History Month with a soul food meal. Calhoun publicly defended the menu, and ?uestlove eventually released a statement clarifying that it was a joke gone too far, that he didn’t believe NBC’s management was insensitive and that he was simpatico with what Calhoun was trying to accomplish.

http://zesterdaily.com/cooking/lets-stop-demonizing-fried-chicken/

[frwrfpos]

15. "many lefties"?

sick shit

[Rex]

170. Noticed that too did you?

I have to say, as a white man I would feel extremely uncomfortable telling another race of people what IS and IS NOT part of their culture!

[dilby]

19. Not a fan of soul food.

Stuff gives me heartburn and is so unhealthy. Also it really doesn't taste that great and I have tried it all over the United States from New York to North Carolina to Mississippi to where I live in Oregon. The stuff in Oregon is ok but it's that white hipster spin on southern cooking which is like saying PF Changs is Asian.

[JI7]

24. they have a lot of vegetable dishes which are healthy

[Scootaloo]

117. I've come to the conclusion I'm the only person in the northwest who can cook

At least, without "flavor foams" being involves somehow.

Northwesterners can't even cook salmon right, and it's their damn fish! The peopel here put tartar sauce on it, after cooking it to a powdery cake. Bleargh.

[bravenak]

125. Tartar sauce?

On salmon? Gross!

[deutsey]

140. Exactly

[onpatrol98]

190. and it's their damn fish!

"and it's their damn fish!"

[lumberjack_jeff]

22. Fuck it. I like fried chicken and when I go to a soul food restaurant I'll order it.

In fact, if I'm looking for well done fried chicken, a soul restaurant is probably the best place to find it. If the owners of the restaurant felt that it was a racial insult they wouldn't have typed it into their menus.

The ridiculous thing about this conversation is that southern food was largely invented by african american cooks. So long as we call it "southern food" it's okay. If we call it "soul food" that's touchy. If we call it african american ethnic food and serve it on black history day... holy shit.

I get the issue with watermelon. Ever since I had to dispose of a pallet of rotten ones, I don't like it much anyway.

[JI7]

25. is anyone saying not to eat these foods ?

[lumberjack_jeff]

27. No, but they are saying to not associate them with their inventors.

I love fried chicken even more than I love corned beef. It doesn't insult my ethnicity at all to note that some old country irishman gets credit for inventing the latter.

[ScreamingMeemie]

36. Nooooooo... "they" are saying, don't expect to not be called out on it when you serve a lunch of

fried chicken and watermelon (in February no less) in "honor" of Black History month. That's what "they" are saying.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024468868

I do not believe African Americans "invented" the watermelon, but they sure as hell were beaten down with its image.

[HipChick]

23. If you have to ask...

[WillowTree]

26. I think it was the overall stereotypical menu that got to people.

Wasn't it fried chicken and collard greens and cornbread and watermelon? Actually, I think it was the watermelon (in February, no less) that put it over the top. The entirety of it that was kind of tone deaf.

At least I think it might have gone over better if they'd dialed it back some.

[Luminous Animal]

192. To be fair. A peak production (and harvesting) month for watermelons in Mexico is February.

and we import a lot of off-season fresh fruit and vegetables from Mexico into the state of California.

[WillowTree]

193. Well there ya go. Learn something new every day.

[TheDebbieDee]

28. I never really cared for fried chicken til my doctor told me that I should avoid it!

[gollygee]

31. If you're offending the people whose history and culture you're trying to honor,

you're doing it wrong.

When I wonder what's racist, I look to the opinions of African Americans (or whatever specific group of people is involved.) They experience racism and its effects, and they're the experts on it.

[Neoma]

178. Hanging around two (awesome) black women could get me in trouble someday either way I put things.

Me: Do people still use the word mulatto?
Best friend: No, someone decided it was offensive and that killed the word.
Me: Oh...
---
Me: I got in trouble on a political website.
Best friend: What'd you do?!
Me: I said the phrase "black accent."
Best friend: *cracks up laughing*
Me: No seriously, what the fuck do I call it?
Her boyfriend: Well you can call it Ebonics.
Best friend: No she can't! People take offense to that too...
Me: What can I call it then?
Best friend: You can't call it anything, people get offended at everything.
---
Me: Okay, so what do YOU call it?
Friend: "Well, you either call them hood rats or ghetto."
Me: "I can't say that!"
Friend: "Why not?"
Best friend: "No really, she really can't say that since she's white. WE can say it but..."
Friend: But I'm okay with it.
Best friend: That doesn't mean others are.
Friend: Yeah, I guess...
---


Those conversations made me believe that people choose to become offended at things in order to shut down serious discussion. I'm not saying that no one should be offended at the whole chicken and watermelon bullshit, but it has made me do double-takes at people who are offended.

Because people are either REALLY offended, or people just don't want to talk about it and leaves the topic hanging to the point that people claim they really want to get down and dirty and talk out stereotypes and differences with other members of society, but they actually don't and they try their best to shut the entire conversation down with the excuse of being offended. Because that is a good way to shut down an entire conversation that could have been really productive.

[xfundy]

34. I grew up on soul food and love it.

When I cook it, though, I try to make it less full of fat, salt, etc., but still love getting a taste of the "real" stuff.

Slaves in America had to get by on scraps, things "proper" (pffft) slaveholders would give them to try to live on. Still, many of the recipes they concocted were as good or better than the "acceptable" food on the rich's plates. And, not all "whites" in the south were slaveholders, many were dirt poor and food preparation and tasting has a way of getting around no matter how much one group may distrust the other.

Yes, many "whites" in the south succummed to the political memes telling them they were somehow better because at least they weren't "n***ers," while both lived in squalor, but when at times they worked together in the kitchens of the rich, the recipes and methods passed between hands and minds and great cuisines were born. There had to be cooperation at times when people of all "colors" were trying to keep their families from starving as the rich assholes were preoccupied with war or had abandoned their indentured servants to the elements.

Nutritionists discovered many years later that "greens" are among the most beneficial foods one can consume for health.

As for myself, I find no comfort as valuable as blackeye peas, greens and cornbread with pot likker, fried okra and sweet potatoes (which are different from yams). And I prefer my chicken baked for health reasons, but refuse to give up fried catfish.

I used to spend some time in Charlotte, NC on business, frequented a soul food restaurant there, and always felt welcome. Never saw what Billo Reilly feared, "More sweet tea, M*** F***."

[Aerows]

111. Giving up fried catfish

sounds pretty much like giving up all hope in life! I LOVE fried catfish.

[M0rpheus]

37. There is no argument against including fried chicken as soul food!

There is however the stereotype it is a part of. Which you seem to be completely oblivious.

Rather than allowing some antiquated, negative attitudes dictate your perception of what fried chicken is or is not in relation to soul food and African American cookery and culture, it's a good idea to LEARN something about it.

This is NOT the time to try to rehabilitate soul food.

I swear it's like "I found the button to push that pisses them off. I don't know why it pisses them off, sooo... lets just keep pushing it."




Why don't you go back to Mr. Scorpio's thread and read why people are pissed rather than just take it off on your own tone deaf tangent?

[ScreamingMeemie]

39. I have to say...

the reactions to MrScorpio's thread, and the completely disingenuous motives behind starting this one make me ill.

It should be absolutely plain as day to anyone who considers themselves a liberal and a progressive. I don't recognize this place any more.

[X_Digger]

38. Jury Results: 5-1 leave.

On Sun Feb 9, 2014, 07:15 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Fried Chicken Is Soul Food & Should Be Honored And Embraced As Such
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024471031

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

racist and doubling down on the stereotype that all Arican Americans eat is fried chicken. Racist as hell

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Feb 9, 2014, 07:25 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: While black folks eat chicken,it is far from being a"soul food" exclusively.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: One of the most absurd alerts/accusations I've ever seen here.
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Umm, I don't think the alerter actually read the post they alerted on.


<-- Juror #6


eta: And dammit, I've got a crock-pot full of chicken and dumplings waiting to finish cooking. The smell has wafted down to my office and it's KILLING ME!

[ScreamingMeemie]

40. Chicken 'n dumplins in a crockpot.

Heaven help me the day that happens in my kitchen.

Stew the chicken, roll out your dough, cut and lay it on top of the stew for 15 minutes before you remove the dumplings and do the next batch.

And, in regard to the votes to leave:

The alerter should have referred jurists to the rather yicky comments made by the OP in the other thread... that spawned this piece of Ugh.

[X_Digger]

42. I cheat- canned biscuits, 30 minutes before dinner time.

Start with a packet of thighs, cut away the gristle and skin and cut into smallish chunks, dump into crock pot, along with a large container of cream of chicken, a small container of cream of chicken, couple cloves of garlic, pepper, thyme, and fill to the rim with chicken stock.

5 hours later, take a cheap can of biscuits (don't use those 'grands' they puff up too much), roll them out and use a pizza wheel to cut into strips. Lay across the top of the chicken, put the lid back on, wait another 30-45 minutes.

YUM!

[ScreamingMeemie]

43. That's chicken 'n biscuits.

[X_Digger]

44. I know, I know.. but it's soooo goood. (As I'm blowing on a forkful.)

One thing that I really really miss.. my grandma used to make blackberry dumplings- real dumplings with blackberries we picked from her berry patch.

I dream about that dessert, every so often- with a scoop of homemade vanilla ice cream on top.

[ScreamingMeemie]

45. Now I'm starving for some blackberries

[Kurska]

41. Lovely soul food place near me

They serve all kinds of wonderful soul food dishes, their shrimp is fantastic. They also serve fried chicken and watermelon.

Will be sure to tell them they are racist next time I go.

[M0rpheus]

46. What the hell is wrong with you people?

Because anytime there is an issue in which black people have an explicitly negative reaction on this site, you people act like you have no clue what we're speaking of. I have about had it with your basic, obtuse bullshit. Should you go to that soul food restaurant and tell them that they're racist for serving fried chicken, I sincerely hope they put you in your place.

What was even the point of this comment at all?

Sometimes I wonder why you people are even on this damned site if you can't figure out the basics of listening.

[Kurska]

53. Woah man

I know you you know everything there possibly is to know about me based on a single post I made. Heck, I'm clearly the perfect representative of some class of poster you clearly despise. I gotta be some massive racist who completely downplays all concerns of black people, because I think it is silly how everyone is flipping out of fried chicken.

But you think you could tone down the invective, you know for my feelings sake and all.

Next time I hear people wailing and nashing their teeth over fried chicken, I'll be 100% sure to jump on the outrage wagon. Clearly the concerns of posters on this website represent the pulse of the African American community. I mean you're perfectly qualified to speak for the entire African American community, how dare I not be outraged at you personally are outraged at.

Oh and that restaurants advertises itself as "Authenticate black soulfood", I fail to see the difference between serving fried chicken there and at a black history month celebration. Both are advertising the food as part of African American culture and cuisine, one didn't get in the newspapers though. I don't really see the difference between bringing matzo to a Jewish History celebration (I'm jewish) and bringing fried chicken to an African American one (you do realize fried chicken originated in Africa and is a originally African dish right?).

[M0rpheus]

56. Had there not been many many posts explaining the issue, I might be more conciliatory.

The chicken may have been the original issue, but here on DU it became, "who gives a fuck about the reasons they're upset? doesn't make any fucking sense to me. don't really care and let me be toss in the pithy comment in the process."

Dismissive and condescending. But hey, it's not like it matters much, right? It's only chicken.

I will concede that yours was just the one that set me off, because there wasn't even a point to it.

[Kurska]

59. First post I've ever made about this topic

Sounds like you're mad about the reaction of some people's reaction to the story. Not really the story itself.

May I suggest that most people on DU are making flippant responses as a joke, not because they hate anyone or don't consider social justice issues important?

[M0rpheus]

60. You may suggest it. Not that it makes it any better.

It's not as if this is the only instance, but hey, it's DU what else should we expect.

[Kurska]

64. DU is incredibly receptive to social justice issues

Especially moreso than the general population.

[M0rpheus]

66. LOL! We'll just let today be the example that I find very close to the norm...

And, I'm gonna just let that statement lay there to die a dignified death.

[ScreamingMeemie]

68. My 15-year-old son is more receptive to social justice issues than a lot

of my fellow DUers are these days.

The feigned ignorance, even in the face of education, is astounding.

[BainsBane]

76. Perhaps if one lives in Alabama or Arizona

but certainly not in comparison to liberal parts of the country. My city and neighborhood are far more diverse and far more welcoming of difference than much of what I see here. I can't imagine anyone I know pretending that serving chicken and watermelon wasn't an obvious racist insult. I can't imagine anyone I know attacking a survivor of child rape as "an abuser" for speaking out about her assault. Morpheus is angry with good reason. It is difficult to imagine that people can truly be so clueless. One starts to wonder if some of this is not a deliberate effort to drive people from this site.

[Kurska]

84. "pretending that serving chicken and watermelon wasn't an obvious racist insult."

So, do you think that soulfood place I mentioned is intentionally racially insulting their predominately black customers? Should I inform them that the great Bainsbane has decided that should chicken and watermelon ever come together that it is a horrible racial insult?

DU is incredibly liberal on social issues and social justice issues. To say otherwise just demonstrates a complete disregard for reality. I mean at best places have maybe 60ish or 70ish percent support for gay marriage. On du it is probably near 99%. I'm sure if we polled things like affirmative action or gender pay equality laws the support for DU would be higher than the average population.

[gollygee]

130. Oh, why don't you try doing a poll on affirmative action

and see the train wreck that causes. You're deluded, really.

[Kurska]

166. Um, we're comparing against the general population

First poll I found says only 45% of Americans think it is needed. Other polls show 67% opposed (gallup so take it a grain of salt) I bet there is at least a slight majority on DU.

If you really think DU is more conservative than the average american on social issues I don't even know what to say. It is such a ridiculous statement to say it is.

[gollygee]

172. There might be a slight majority

but I bet it's slight, and that's not much better than the general population. I never said DU is more conservative, but it isn't that much more liberal, at least not on issues of race and gender.

[Kurska]

185. More conservative seemed to be the assertion I was responding to originally.

Which frankly I found absolutely ridiculous.

[LanternWaste]

165. I'm beginning to wonder if 'context' is a quite recent invention

"So, do you think that soulfood (sic) place I mentioned is intentionally..."

I'm beginning to wonder if the obvious and self-evident concept of 'context' is a quite recent invention given that more than a handful of posters appear to be rather ignorant of it (or more likely, merely ignoring it) in this scenario...

Maybe that form of linear thought, lacking dimension and context, is simply too convenient and tempting when contrasted with critical thought-- based on relevant background, history and relation, becomes just too difficult for lazy thinkers pretending to be clever...

[cyberswede]

167. +1

It's mind-boggling.

[Kurska]

168. So tell me

Why exactly is advertising your food as "Authentic African American Soulfood" when it is fried chicken not a racist insult, but serving it as part of African American culture in a pride celebration an insult.

Explain to me the difference. They are both claiming the food as part of African American culture.

What is the context that I'm missing here.

[BainsBane]

74. It is perfectly in keeping with your posts on other issues having to do with diversity

Whether race or gender.

[Kurska]

88. You don't know a thing about me.

I don't have a racist bone in my body. I don't have a sexist bone in my body.

I'm not surprised I don't pass your purity tests though. I mean I've disagreed with you in the past, such an unforgivable sin.

Glad to know you're keeping a watchful eye on my post history though.

[kwassa]

77. You don't understand the historical context, and you don't care that you don't know.

It is not about the food, but how the association with the food was used to denigrate people.

It isn't about fried chicken and watermelon, it was how they were symbolically used to denigrate a group of people as inferior.

You don't get that. Many white posters here don't get that. It is a matter of historical illiteracy more than anything else.

What really is disturbing is that you don't care that you don't know.

[Kurska]

81. Actually as a Jewish person I completely understand food being used to denigrate people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_libel

Used to be rather common for people to say that Jews used blood to make their matzo.

As a jew, I'd be pissed off if other jews allowed hate speech and stereotypes to destroy our association with our culinary traditions.

Fried chicken has deep and broad roots in both the African American community and in Africa itself, where it was first cooked with Palm oil. Soul food is delicious and testament to the ingenuity of African Americans that they were able to make such delicious food from what others considered throw away parts.

I perfectly understand, I just don't think that racial stereotypes should dictate our cultural culinary traditions.

[kwassa]

188. Racial stereotypes don't dictate our culturul culinary traditions.

and they never have. I don't know how you think this is an issue.

Black people eat watermelon and fried chicken and many other food traditions and enjoy them.

Fried chicken isn't remotely unique to the United States; cultures the world over eat variations on fried chicken. It is the use of fried chicken and watermelon as a surrogate descriptor for being backwards and ignorant that is the issue.

[BainsBane]

73. Some of it is deliberately disrespectful

That seems clear to me. They treat feminist issues with the same scorn. Opposition to racism, is being PC and "too sensitive" but if someone refers to DUers as "malcontents," all hell breaks lost and the offender must be pilloried. It's a stunning demonstration of privilege and intolerance, which is becoming more blatant by the day.

[M0rpheus]

78. I know this, and 99 days out of 100 I avoid the bait.

Today, it was just a bit too much. The simple concept of mutual respect is lost on many here these days.

As you mentioned earlier, this is the very reason we have so few AA posters here.

[Nye Bevan]

85. How do I access the breakdown of DUers by race? (nt)

[bravenak]

89. Do you doubt the veracity of his claim that there are very few AA DUers?

It's like a tea party rally around here demographically. Really.
I expected there to be more of us here, but nobody wants us around.

[M0rpheus]

99. Don't even bother with that one. He's just trolling. nt

[bravenak]

104. I know.

Boys will be boys.

[Number23]

108. "It's like a tea party rally around here demographically." More than just "demographically"

MMmmmm hmmmmm (as the old church ladies with the MLK fans would say)

I am becoming such a huge fan of your posts. You have such a hilarious and forthright way with words

[bravenak]

109. I try to be funny so I don't cry.

I have noticed that you guys in AA or BOG or HOF are the only ones who usually laugh at my jokes.

I'm glad somebody else has noticed how hypocritical is is to make fun of the TEA party for being old and uncolored, when it looks the same around here. It makes me laugh everyday. Oblivious people are funny.

[M0rpheus]

91. I suppose it would be surprising to you to know that there's an AA group.

And that we speak to each other.

Now, run off and bait someone else, like a good boy.

[Nye Bevan]

93. Ironic that you referred to me as "boy" (nt)

[M0rpheus]

95. Knowing your history, I could call you much worse.

But alas, that would be playing your game.
Bye Nye.

[Nye Bevan]

96. Back atcha!

[merrily]

114. Or maybe not ironic at all.

[BainsBane]

90. You were right to challenge it

That shit has to be called out.

[Number23]

98. M0rpheus

[M0rpheus]

100. Sigh...

[Number23]

102. It's going to be all right. Just be damn glad you don't have to live with these people

My favorite was the post upthread which seems to deny that there was racism on DU because DUers support affirmative action and gay marriage in larger numbers than average Americans. I mean, what can you possibly say to shit like that??

[M0rpheus]

105. I'm fairly certain that would result in a loss of freedom for me...

on that post, I just had to let that one die. There was no point for any further response there.

[Nye Bevan]

134. "Fairly certain that would result in a loss of freedom for me...."

Because some issues are just so highly charged that physical violence, leading to prison time, is inevitable?

Well, allow me to give you a pertinent quote:

The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral,
begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy.
Instead of diminishing evil, it multiplies it.
Through violence you may murder the liar,
but you cannot murder the lie, nor establish the truth.
Through violence you may murder the hater,
but you do not murder hate.
In fact, violence merely increases hate.
So it goes.
Returning violence for violence multiplies violence,
adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness:
only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

[bravenak]

136. So, since he's black a loss of freedom must mean he's going to commit a violent felony??

That is some foul crap full of racist connotations. You should delete what you just posted.

If that's not what you meant you should explain it. Otherwise it will be taken as delivered. Racist stereotyping gone wrong.

That was a nasty post you just threw out there and it's offensive to suggest that that poster meant that he would commit an act of violence if he lived in a community full of idiots. It was wrong of you to suggest and since you are grown I know you know that. And nice touch using a black civil rights leader to deliver your nastiness. By nice touch I mean it's disgusting.

[Nye Bevan]

137. Well, what do you think he meant by the "loss of freedom" comment?

I do note that you do not offer an alternative, more benign interpretation. I was not able to think of one either.

[bravenak]

142. There are many types of freedom as you know very well I think.

Last edited Mon Feb 10, 2014, 11:21 AM - Edit history (1)

Freedom of expression comes to mind. Freedom of movement. Freedom of thought. Freedom to persue happiness. Freedom from racism.Stop playing games. It's obvious what you are doing.
Do you need any more examples of types of freedom, or are you ready to ask yourself why your mind jumped to violent felonies immediately? Maybe you should ask yourself, " why did I immediately think that poster meant they would be imprisoned for committing violent felonies?". And " if the poster were a white guy, would 'freedom' have meant something else or would I have automatically assumed that they meant they would assault/kill someone"

You are playing in to violent black fantasy stereotypes and it's very apparent what you are doing. It's very shameful. Shameful indeed. You have my sympathy.

[Nye Bevan]

143. OK, but when someone talks about "losing their freedom", without any qualifier,

they don't usually mean "losing their freedom of expression" or "losing their freedom to pursue happiness". Let's see whether the poster clarifies.

[bravenak]

144. Did you ask for a clarification?

No you didn't. You made a nasty accusation instead. You should be the one making clarifications if anyone should. He said living around people like that would mean a loss of freedom for him. That makes perfect sense without dragging the violent black male stereotypes into the discussion.
Living around people like that would mean a loss of freedom to me too, in a serious way. Do you think I mean I would end up in jail?

Stop acting brand new.
That's my phrase of the day.
It applies to you in this discussion.
If you need a translation so that you know I don't mean i intend to murder anyone, please let me know. It should be obvious but, since you're determined to act brand new I'll translate if I must.

[Nye Bevan]

145. Actually I did. The first sentence of that post was a question.

Not an assertion, nor an accusation. Did you not see the question mark?

[bravenak]

146. No it wasn't a request for clarification.

It was used as an accusation and you know that. Playing pretend is fun!!! You know about that though.

He never said he would lose his freedom. He said it would mean a loss of freedom. Two different things that you attempted, I admit poorly, to conflate. Then you brought in the black male stereotypes negating any attempt at clarifycation, and bringing insults into the discussion. And I feel bad for you, with you trying to pretend you didn't mean what you clearly said. It must be hard to twist oneself up into pretzels like that. It's kind of sorry, and I feel sad for you.

I'm probably more likely to commit an act of violence than Morpheus. I'm a nose breaking pro.

[Nye Bevan]

147. "I'm a nose-breaking pro".

Ummmmmmmm.... OK.

This has been illuminating.

[bravenak]

154. Yep. It sad that all you got from my post. Pitiful, really.

Learned in self defense class after I was raped. I'm explaining to you that it's wrong to assume violence would come from Morpheus. It was wrong for you to make that assumption. It was wrong for you to assume he meant he'd commit a violent felony. You were wrong to assume that's what he meant. You are the one who was wrong. You. Were. Wrong. To. Make. That. Assumption. You.

Nye Bevan seems to assume that when a black person says loss of freedom they immediately mean prison. I'm sorry that you don't know that that plays into racial stereotypes.

I notice that you won't admit that you made a jacked up assumption, but you're all over the fact that I'm a nose breaking pro. Too bad I had to learn to breaks noses to escape from an attacker. If men would stop raping women like me, then women like me wouldn't have to become nose breaking pros.
It's a mans world, I just live here.
Yes. This discussion has been illuminating, just not in the way you think. You have my deepest sympathy.

[M0rpheus]

183. "The choice is not between violence and nonviolence but between nonviolence and nonexistence."-MLK

I don't need your MLK quote as, there's nothing you could do, other than threaten my immediate safety, that would drive me to violence. In my life, I've been driven into some very dark places, by people like you... The "Devil's advocate", the obtuse observer. I continue to exist and thrive.

Were I surrounded by people like yourself, who seem to have no other goal than to deny my truth and existence, I don't know how I'd come out of the other end. I can assure you that I'd make it out, with my physical freedom intact. No matter what you do, that's one freedom you will not strip from me.

Twist that how you will...

[Number23]

191. You are absolutely ridiculous.

Because some issues are just so highly charged that physical violence leading to prison time, is inevitable?

The fact that you CHOSE to leap to such a stupid, absurd, nauseating conclusion says so much about YOU than it it ever will about the person you posted that in response to.

Stop trying to goad M0rpheus into responding to your idiocy. How in the world you leapt to the "conclusion" that he was talking about engaging in physical violence on a freaking WEB SITE (how does one even do that?? How do you get violent on a WEB SITE??!) is just about one of the stupidest things I've ever seen here. And the fact that you know good and damn well that the person you are responding to is black makes it even more disgusting.

[bravenak]

159. Someone thinks that when you said loss of freedom you meant you would commit a violent felony.

And go to prison. Because that's what loss of freedom means when 'we' say it.
I think it's because you're 'different'. Are you violent? I never got that impression from you at all. You don't sound like the type of person in to commit a violent felony and go to prison.

[M0rpheus]

162. 'Twas a specifically crafted sentence...

I've never been violent towards anyone, and I don't intend to start now. There are other ways to be denied freedom that I consider much worse than prison.

No need to justify my statement past that, particularly in response to that poster. He's just here to stir the pot.

[bravenak]

163. I know.

I find it a shameful display of ignorance. Pathetic really. Poor guy.

[badtoworse]

47. We celebrate all kinds of ethnic cuisines. Why not soul food?

[kwassa]

49. You completely miss the point.

Here is the point. New references.







Old references.

[KittyWampus]

51. Yes, and????? So we shouldn't talk about Soul Food, because of the ignorant?

There's a history there to be learned about food. It's interesting. It's enlightening.

It goes beyond the stereotypes.

It includes individuals but encompasses a culture.

But apparently we shouldn't talk about it or acknowledge it?

You post those hurtful images and totally ignore the information available about soul food, chicken and fried chicken and it's role in history.

BTW, I didn't mention watermelon once in my post and yet you threw an image into your post.

[kwassa]

54. You are busy denying the racist connection.

I don't know why you are working so hard to do this.

Fried chicken is food eaten worldwide, by many different cultures. Watermelon, too. Only in America is it used as a pejorative against black people as a symbol of backwardness and ignorance.

[struggle4progress]

52. It would be better not to assume any particular food item has any particular meaning for

a subculture

"Soul food" can mean many different things -- but among other things, one meaning might be: "This is what we ate when we had to eat real cheap," stuff like ham hocks, pig ears, tripe, and chitterlings

Producing a safe and flavorful meal from something like chitterlings takes some work: first, you have to get them really clean, so you aren't literally feeding folk pigshit

It's probably true lots of folk who ate "soul food" liked chicken. Chicken is, in fact, still a very popular popular food today, across the US. But chicken, until fairly recently, was an expensive high-status food. Fried chicken is very labor-intensive to produce from scratch: you've got to kill the chicken, pluck it, disassemble it, bread it, and fry it. Since your hens might be giving you eggs, you aren't going to slaughter them if you're poor. And anything you feed the chickens, like crushed dry corn, is something you might instead have put on your own table. When you're really poor, your table scraps and left-overs go back into stew to eat later

The people who lived in the original "soul food" cultures, as slaves or share-croppers, didn't eat a lot of fried chicken: somebody who fed you fried chicken was really being nice to you

[KittyWampus]

55. Adrien Miller talks about the Sunday Chicken- it being reserved for Sundays and best pieces of meat

being given to visiting preachers.

“Sunday fried chicken in the rural South preserved and transmitted some important cultural values: reverence for God by observing the Sabbath, respect for the preacher as God’s representative, the feast as an acknowledgement of God’s continued blessings, and the importance of family and community.”

[DBoon]

58. Personally, I prefer Seoul food

[scarletwoman]

62. Well, bless your heart.

You are surely a credit to your race.

[Jenoch]

67. I'm not quite certain I understand the point you wish to make.

Sure, fried chicken can be 'soul food'. That does not mean that all fried chicken is sould food.

My mother made great pna-fried chicken, milk gravy, and mashed potatoes. I was a scrawny kid and would not eat the gravy when I was young. (I was a moron.) She taught me how to cook her fried chicken, mashed potatoes and gravy. I make it for my widowed father about once a year. We have never considered it to be 'soul food'. Our 'soul food' is a few eastern European dishes.

[FarCenter]

69. Sometimes fried chicken is just fried chicken

We would get about 100 rooster chicks each spring. These would grow big enough to eat by late June or so.

In the hot summer months, chicken was eaten because you can catch, behead, pluck, eviscerate, butcher, and fry a chicken in fairly quick order. It is also a small animal, so that it can be eaten before it goes bad.

Of course, once a freezer became available, pork and beef could be had during the summer. Otherwise, those meats were only available as heavily salted and cured or canned meats.

[bravenak]

70. No thank you!!

I'm not honoring the scraps left over for us as 'soul food'. It's not soul food. It's the crap that we were allowed to have, we took it and made it delicious because there was no other choice. It replaced the culture and foods stolen from us, and helped us become diabetics, keeps our blood pressure up and we have enjoyed and epidemic of obesity for decades as a result of the crappy food we were allowed to have.

Many Africans stolen from Africa were Muslim and were forced to eat scraps of pork and other unclean foods against their religion, and I'm certain those poor dead souls would not consider it soul food.

I think telling us we need to learn about it is very condescending of you. We have learned about it. We live it everyday.

I think you may need to learn more about the history of slavery and read some first hand accounts of former slaves. They are free on amazon.http://www.amazon.com/Slave-Narratives-History-Interviews-Mississippi-ebook/dp/B004UKCEXC/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1392006006&sr=1-1&keywords=slave+narratives

The former slaves talk about food a lot, I have read most of the books available for download.
It will help give you some insight about black people and our history in America and it will give you some clues as to why we hate for white people to tell us how we should feel about things and see things and speak of things. It's rude to tell someone how they should see things.

[ScreamingMeemie]

71. Thank you!

For the link and the perspective. Downloaded, and I look forward to reading it.

[bravenak]

72. You're welcome.

They are great reading materials. It's nice to read some first hand accounts so that we don't forget how it really was. No nostalgia for me.

[Kurska]

92. Soulfood is delicious

The fact that when I eat it I'm generally supporting a proud local African American entrepreneur is just a bonus ontop of the delicious food.

Man if this isn't an example of historical baggage letting people ruin things, I don't know what is.

In fact, I'm going to go back to this local place tomorrow.

And I'm going to leave a nice fat tip.

[bravenak]

97. Good for you.

Are you telling me this because you know I'm black and you want me to know that my historical baggage isn't ruining the food for you? If so, that normal around here.


I have no problem with you eating at and supporting a local business that you love.

I just don't call it soul food because of the negative way it started. I'll call it the crap that we made delicious since we would have starved otherwise since there was no damn way the massa was going to let us eat the same things they got since we were not even considered human. You can call it soul food.
There's a lot of historical baggage that goes along with soul food, like diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, and obesity that has been leading to the higher rates of these diseases in our community and helping us into early graves. I hope that doesn't ruin it for you. I ruins it for me though, since I'm probably more likely to die from these things than you are. You should do as you please, and I think a double triple tip is in order.

[Kurska]

103. I'm saying it, because I don't think it should ruin it for you.

If you don't want to eat it or call it soulfood that is your choice. Frankly, I can't think of a good equivalent for me, so maybe I'm just not capable of fully understanding your position.

I do recognize that it is the result of African Americans being given parts of food they others rejected. I see it as a testament to their ingenuity that they made such good tasting food from it;.

[bravenak]

107. It's killing us. It tastes delicious. Eaten every day it will kill you.

I can cook it, but I'm not feeding my kids that stuff. I want them to be healthy and live long lives.
My family is full of peach cobbler eating diabetics, my cousing just had a double organ transplant because of kidney failure due to complications of diabetes. He also had a toe removed.
My uncle had to get his leg chopped off below the knee.
Another relative reached 700+ pounds and he was not able to be saved.
My aunt has high blood pressure and has had two heart attacks, she still eats it everyday since that's all she knows how to cook. I give her a few years before she's dead.
I reached 215 pounds while pregnant with my youngest, I can cook my ass off. I'm 5'1". That's morbidly obese.
I am 140 now and I have 10 to go. That's my problem with soul food. It tastes so good that you kill yourself with it.
Enjoy your meal.

[KittyWampus]

150. Well, the author cited in the OP differentiates between three different "periods" in the making of

what is today called "Soul Food".

And acknowledges the challenges in modernizing it and moving it forward.

And it's strange… did you EVER post about this topic before in the context of serving Soul Food meals to honor Black History Month?
Other than to say the obvious, that the offensive images are hurtful?

Or is this now your way of asserting authority and or shut down any discussion of what Soul Food is and how it came to be?

Why is that the topic of Soul Food comes up and it isn't until my post, which discusses THE HISTORY/EVOLUTION, that you decide to chime in?

[bravenak]

155. Oh, am I not allowed to chime in on 'your' thread?

No I didn't ever post about soul food in the context of black history month. Have you done this before and I just missed it?? I joined last year and during that time of black history month I wasn't participating on a frequent basis. That's okay with you, right?

I don't need to shut down discussion as this is a topic that I want discussed.
You posted this stupid thread after Mr.Scorpio posted his and it seemed odd and insensitive. Ive noticed a lot of insensitivity toward black people around here and i wanted you to know what you sounded like. Maybe you were unaware of how you come off. Now I think that you are aware and just don't care. That's fine with me as long as you keep it real.

I can chime in whenever I feel like chiming in, just as you are free to do. And if you're going to try to educate us black folks on soul food I figure it might help if you knew what the heck you were taking about. Just cause you read a book by some AA man who wants to sell more books, doesn't mean you understand the history of soul food. By soul food, I mean the crap the plantation masters allowed us to have that wasn't given to the animals as feed. You know, the food that's killing us.


But I'm sure after all of these years cooking soul food and reading up on my black history, you know far far more than I could ever know about soul food. I mean, you read a book, so you're an expert now. My bad.

[Skip Intro]

75. Fried Chicken is Southern Cooking.

A staple of Sunday dinners, and fine for supper any night.

Fried Chicken, some form of potatoes, rice and gravy, greens for those that want 'em, biscuits - cake or pie for dessert.

That's Southern cooking.

[Trillo]

110. Yeah, that's what I thought.

Southern food. Fried chicken, fritters, biscuits and gravy, peas and corn. Black eyed peas and rice, too.

I never associated it with black people, just people.

[Trillo]

112. Grits, too.

Them's hominy grits.

[Scootaloo]

118. There's many regional variants there...

I'm from the gulf coast. What the hell is a "fritter"? Why no okra or collards? And most importantly where's the shrimp?! Can't have southern food without shrimp. It's impossible. They're practically a vegetable where I'm from, you serve 'em with everything.

[fishwax]

79. It's *also* fodder for offensive stereotypes, and should be addressed and critiqued as such.

That is something that Adrian Miller, the author of Soul Food, points out repeatedly. His perspective is complex, containing both a recognition of the history behind decades of food being used to demean African Americans and position them as other on the one hand, and a desire to celebrate the resourcefulness of African Americans to develop a notable food culture from the limited resources they were allowed on the other. Your simplification of that position to "it should be celebrated" does Miller--and the discussion itself--a great disservice. (Pairing that oversimplification with the implication that those not quite ready to embrace chicken and watermelon as an ideal lunch special for black history month are just ignorant of history pushes that even further.)

"African Americans," Miller says, "should share the stereotype’s history, explain why it hurts and show how we all have a collective responsibility to refrain from denigrating others through the use of their traditional foods. We should then celebrate fried chicken as a source of pride in the African-American experience."

I find it pretty odd that your response to people doing the former has been to keep hammering on Miller's book as a reason why they shouldn't be doing just that. Of course, not everyone will agree with Miller that a fried chicken dinner is a fine way to celebrate Martin Luther King Day or Black History Month, and that's fine. Not being African American myself, my impulse is primarily to watch and learn from that discussion--and to provide comfort and a ready ear to the hurt and frustrated--rather than trying to jump into the fray and tell people how they ought to feel about the deployment of such baggage-laden devices. And certainly, I would never want to deny the complexity of such an issue, nor to dismiss the pain people feel in order to focus on the pride someone else thinks they ought to feel.

And all of this, it's worth noting, relates to the use of fried chicken only. Throwing in watermelon changes things entirely, because those two stereotypes have been used so forcefully against African Americans for decades. As Miller said (in reference to a different controversy), whenever "the words 'chicken' and 'watermelon' are in any sentence that references African-Americans, whatever their motivation, the speaker is just asking for trouble."

[M0rpheus]

80. !!!!!

[bravenak]

87. Thank you.NT

[etherealtruth]

126. "It's *also* fodder for offensive stereotypes, and should be addressed and critiqued as such"

Not understanding that, is willful ignorance. I am saddened to read comments dismissing this (with feigned ignorance)

[MerryBlooms]

132. Yes. Very well said, ty. n/t

[KittyWampus]

148. And yet how many DU'ers repeatedly "hammer" those offensive stereotypes and totally IGNORE

the rich and interesting history?

Hmmm?

Why is that?

Just because I didn't post the hurtful and offensive stereotypes means I am just ignoring them?

Or denying them>

As I said elsewheres, that so many can't stand the discussion moving in any other direction that pointing out the ugly images says more about them than me.

[Gormy Cuss]

82. But fried chicken AND WATERMELON is just an ugly stereotype.

The high school administration had the good sense to say that it was racially insensitive to offer such a menu during Black History month.

[Major Nikon]

106. NBC also had to apologize for a menu that included fried chicken and collard greens

It was a menu selected by Chef Leslie Calhoun, who happens to be black. This was her response:

http://thegrio.com/2010/02/04/nbc-cook-defends-fried-chicken-choice-for-black-history-month/

[Gormy Cuss]

173. It wasn't the menu, it was the sign that caused the stir.

The chef obviously thought people would consider it an honor rather than an insult. Her miscalculation.

[Major Nikon]

187. The controversy started with a tweet

The person who sent the tweet realized they screwed up after they learned all the facts.

[TreasonousBastard]

86. Sure, it should be...

just like every other ethnic and regional food we gulp down and write about.

But, the appreciation of "soul food" whatever that actually is, has been poisoned by that irrational hate for slave descendants, or anyone who might remind the racists of slave descendants, and those signs and statuettes of Sambo slobbering over a watermelon weren't all that long ago.

Bagels, pasta carbonara, corned beef, dim sum, tostadas... All brought here by people who were for a short time despised and made fun of, but those stereotypes faded away while the stigma of fried chicken and watermelon still exists, and no doubt causes some hurt in some quarters.

I love fried chicken and watermelon myself, but my aging white ass remembers all too well those insulting caricatures, and those memories won't go away soon. Nor will the caricatures.

[demosincebirth]

101. Is it racist to serve Tacos and Tamales to celebrate Cinco de Mayo?

[JI7]

122. depends on how it's done, but it hasn't been used in the bigoted way against mexicans

the way watermelon and fried chicken have against blacks.

[merrily]

113. First, not all African Americans have their roots in the old US South.

Only descendants of slaves. After all the marvelous accomplishments of African Americans, both before and after Emancipation, that you are going to honor all African Americans by serving them THE most stereotypical menu possible is a problem.


I can live without corn bread, but I enjoy watermelon and fried chicken as much as anyone of any heritage, but I would not dream of taking THE most stereotypical menu possible and serving as an alleged honor to African Americans during Black History Month.

Anyone of any heritage who has trouble seeing that just doesn't get it.

[etherealtruth]

124. Anyone of any heritage who has trouble seeing that just doesn't get it.

Sadly, I think it is a willful choice not to "get it" ... and am only left to wonder why that choice has been made.

[handmade34]

129. "Anyone...who has trouble seeing that just doesn't get it"

I am dismayed that so many 'just don't get it'

[etherealtruth]

189. I fear they actually "get it"

... they just don't think it is a big deal ... because it isn't a big deal to them (which raises a whole host of other questions about them!)

[liberal N proud]

128. Irregardless if it is called soul food or not, I love fried chicken

And I grew up in the north and I am white.

Fried chicken done in that southern style will melt in your mouth.

[Arcanetrance]

131. The problem I see with honoring black history month with the meal they chose

Is that they made an entire race one monolithic block that all has the same tastes. I have a couple friends who are black who for various reasons dislike fried chicken one cause he's sensitive to grease to much makes him sick and the other just dislikes the taste of chicken. That's not including the friends I have who are from Jamaica and Haiti who are black and don't consider that soul food or comfort food . I think the school in question would have been better off not trying to serve a single meal. But that's my thoughts

[MrScorpio]

139. I can't stand much of what passes for soul food myself

And you're right, Blacks aren't monolithic when it comes to food.

Frankly, I think that assigning it in such a way to all Black people is quite short sighted.

[CFLDem]

133. All I know is

that I love that chicken from Popeyes!

🍗🍗🍖🍗🍯🍯🍯🍟🍟🍺🍺

[JustAnotherGen]

135. Well Fiddle Dee!

You told me!

[MrScorpio]

138. When racist whites stop using soul food as a negative stereotype against blacks...

It will be then when we can have a conversation about fried chicken and watermelon without any stigma attached to them.

[JustAnotherGen]

157. Throw the mic MrScorpio!

And look at what Steve Leser wrote below - who knew? We eat the least amount of watermelon. And I don't eat black eyed peas or chitlins either - that's nasty.

[Capt. Obvious]

141. So, people were just honoring Obama's heritage with this image?

[chrisa]

149. I love soul food, but it doesn't love me.

Too bad what's good for your soul isn't so good for your cholesterol. Lol

There's nothing like good cornbread, though. It's my guilty pleasure, along with some spicy jambalaya or collared greens.

[stevenleser]

152. What I think people are missing is that when this recently happened, the Black Student Union at

the school protested specifically the watermelon being part of that menu. They did not protest the fried chicken and cornbread.

Studies show that African Americans are actually consume the least amount of watermelon so not only is this an ugly stereotype, it isn't at all borne out by statistics.

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Controversy-Surrounds-Lunch-Menu-at-Concord-High-School-243851091.html

.
.
.
Several students told NBC Bay Area that Libby talked to members of the Black Student Union on campus, and the students suggested that the watermelon be taken off the menu.

Libby agreed to make that change, they said. She also said in a letter to the school community that they will remove fried chicken and cornbread from the menu.

[Xyzse]

158. This guy I worked with, would go to a place he calls soul food.

He would bring in some collard greens, chicken... and this amazing AMAZING breaded pork chop.

Ok, damn, now I'm hungry.

[Vashta Nerada]

160. Yay racial stereotypes!

[Oilwellian]

161. This is probably one of the more disgusting titles I've seen on DU

How embarrassing.

[Puzzledtraveller]

164. kickin for Chicken and soul food!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

169. Fried chicken for the soul

[Rex]

171. As a white man

I would feel extremely uncomfortable telling another race of people what IS and IS NOT part of their culture! I don't think I am qualified in the least bit to make that call.

[el_bryanto]

175. What do you think about White Food Historians or Anthropologists?

But then again, I don't tend towards wanting to see a list of "authentic" dishes myself, for any culture. There's certainly often iconic dishes for each culture and sub culture - but I favor an approach that looks how all dishes, even those that seem very phony or mass produced, fit into the history of a cuisine.

Bryant

[Rex]

176. Yes I was thinking a cultural anthropologist might have some legitimacy to discuss it.

Or an expert in cuisine.

[el_bryanto]

174. Planet Taco - A Global History of Mexican Food by Jeffrey M. Pilcher

Great book if you are interested in that subject.

Bryant

[Blue_Tires]

177. I'm going to be as brief as I can and spell it out...

1. If a school cafeteria wanted to have a "soul food" day, there are much better, more uniquely African-American options than the generic chicken-watermelon-cornbread menu, which smacks of cheap stereotypes...

2. *UNLESS* the school wanted to use it as a teaching moment with discussion on just how those foods historically came to be associated with us and why some of us view that association as racially insensitive to this day...If the school just did it as some generic, this-is-what-black-people-eat day without any further discussion, then it *IS* wrong and shame on them; and shame one anyone trying to defend this bullshit...

[Quantess]

181. I like your idea about it being used as a teaching moment.

One of the teaching moments could be:

1. Here's your delicious meal of fried chicken, cornbread, and watermelon. Unfortunately this meal has historically been, and still is today, a cheap stereotype of what black americans eat.
2. Not only that, there are racial prejudices involved, and here is why .....
3. Also, some clearly racist incidents have revolved around these stereotypes of what black people eat, including....
4. However, there is no shame in eating these delicious foods just because they are racially loaded stereotypes.

What do you think?

[Blue_Tires]

182. Yeah, something like that...

And you can go back to the origins themselves during the era of slavery...Or mention other things like lobster (the early New England fishermen didn't value lobster and saw it as cheap bycatch, so they gave it to the African servants by the bushel -- Only years later did it become a delicacy)

[Quantess]

184. Learn something new every day! I did not know that.

I have never been all that interested in the history of food, anyway. I'm not a foodie (obviously not black, either), so I never read up on this stuff. That is very interesting, though.

But unfortunately... this is the kind of information that racist RWers (was that redundant?) could use against you. Slaves got treated good! They got lobster! Oh, well. I think that the more information is out there, the less ignorance.

[Arkana]

180. I never thought of it as anything different.

Who said it was? Soul food to me has always been a Southern thing, not a black or white thing. Now, I'm well aware of the racial stereotypes, but why does it matter if fried chicken is part of soul food or not?

[cinnabonbon]

194. I think the Soul Food argument is misplaced, imho

The question we should be asking is "if black people say they are offended by it, are we really honoring a tradition of theirs or are we doing it to make ourselves feel good?"