What the Mainstream Media isn't telling you about the situation in Kiev.

[MattSh]

As an 8+ year resident of Kiev and living about 1.5 miles from the main EuroMaidan protests, I've seen a lot the last few months that I had never expected to see. A lot of what I'm going to say here is going to be controversial, precisely because of the pseudo-coverage these events received in the USA.

In general, I've always had this idea that if people are out in the streets protesting in large numbers, they have a very good reason to do so. But when these protests started, I was having trouble finding exactly what that very good reason was. I mean, come on, you're protesting the failure to accept a trade agreement that would impose Greek style austerity and devastate numerous domestic industries in the process? Seeing that wasn't all that appealing to many, it morphed into a protest against corruption, which is obvious and rampant here and much more appealing to the general population. But many could not overlook a couple of things. One is the fascists leanings of one of the main groups behind the protests, and that the protests were incredibly well organized and well funded and claiming it all came from ordinary Ukrainians didn't compute. I smelled a rat early on, and so have in general been against these protests, though there have been occasions where they almost won me over, to be followed a day or two later by the street doing something so stupid that I could no longer be on their side.

Let me just link to a couple of articles that I believe describes the complexity of the situation the last few months in Kiev.

Debate: Is Ukraine's Opposition a Democratic Movement or a Force of Right-Wing Extremism?

Now, what was that agreement? It would have been an economic catastrophe for Ukraine. I'm not talking about the intellectuals or the people who are well placed, about ordinary Ukrainians. The Ukrainian economy is on the brink of a meltdown. It needed billions of dollars. What did the European Union offer them? The same austerity policies that are ravaging Europe, and nothing more. $600 million. It needed billions and billions.

There's one other thing. If you read the protocols of the European offer to Ukraine, which has been interpreted in the West as just about civilizational change, escaping Russia, economics, democracy, there is a big clause on military cooperation. In effect, by signing this, Ukraine would have had to abide by NATO's military policies. What would that mean? That would mean drawing a new Cold War line, which used to be in Berlin, right through the heart of Slavic civilization, on Russia's borders. So that's where we're at to now.

One other point: These right-wing people, whom Anton thinks are not significant, all reports, and I don't know when he was in Ukraine, maybe it was long ago and things have gone, but the reports that are coming out of Ukraine are the following. One, the moderates, that's the former heavyweight champion boxer, Vitali Klitschko, and others, have lost control of the street. They've asked the people who have been attacking the police with Molotov cocktails, and to vacate the buildings they've occupied, to stop. And the street will not stop, partly because, I'd say largely because, the street in Kiev is now controlled by these right-wing extremists. And that extremism has spread to western Ukraine, where these people are occupying government buildings. So, in fact, you have a political civil war underway.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/1/30/debate_is_ukraines_opposition_a_democratic

Ukraine and the Rebirth of Fascism in Europe

For its part, the United States has strongly come down on the side of the opposition, regardless of its political character. In early December, members of the US ruling establishment such as John McCain and Victoria Nuland were seen at Maidan lending their support to the protesters. However, as the character of the opposition has become apparent in recent days, the US and Western ruling class and its media machine have done little to condemn the fascist upsurge. Instead, their representatives have met with representatives of Right Sector and deemed them to be "no threat." In other words, the US and its allies have given their tacit approval for the continuation and proliferation of the violence in the name of their ultimate goal: regime change.

In an attempt to pry Ukraine out of the Russian sphere of influence, the US-EU-NATO alliance has, not for the first time, allied itself with fascists. Of course, for decades, millions in Latin America were disappeared or murdered by fascist paramilitary forces armed and supported by the United States. The mujahideen of Afghanistan, which later transmogrified into Al Qaeda, also extreme ideological reactionaries, were created and financed by the United States for the purposes of destabilizing Russia. And of course, there is the painful reality of Libya and, most recently Syria, where the United States and its allies finance and support extremist jihadis against a government that has refused to align with the US and Israel. There is a disturbing pattern here that has never been lost on keen political observers: the United States always makes common cause with right wing extremists and fascists for geopolitical gain.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/ukraine-and-the-rebirth-of-fascism-in-europe/5366852


Ukrainian Left-Wing Activists' Appeal to UN, EU, and USA: Don't Back Civil War & Fascist Coup in Ukraine!

1. The pretext for organizing the Euromaidan in Kiev was the refusal of the Government and the President of Ukraine to sign an Association Agreement with the EU. We draw your attention to the content of this document, for the sake of which the Parliamentary opposition led people to the Maidan. The heart of the Agreement is the complete loss of Ukraine's sovereignty through the transfer to supranational agencies (the Council of Association and the Committee on Trade) of decision-making authority, placing them juridically above the Constitution and laws of Ukraine. It has been unconditionally proven that this contradicts the Declaration on the National Sovereignty of Ukraine, the Constitution of Ukraine, and decisions of the Constitutional Court of Ukraine. It also contradicts the expression of the will of the people of Ukraine in the referenda of March 17 and December 1, 1991.

Implementation of the Association Agreement with the EU would indisputably lead to the destruction of the country's economy, industry, agriculture, service sector, and science.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/forum/2014/01/ukrainian-left-wing-activists-appeal-un-eu-and-usa-dont-back-civil-war-fascist-coup-uk#sthash.wVZRxuTe.dpuf


Russia Under Attack

In a number of my articles I have explained that the Soviet Union served as a constraint on US power. The Soviet collapse unleashed the neoconservative drive for US world hegemony. Russia under Putin, China, and Iran are the only constraints on the neoconservative agenda.

Russia’s nuclear missiles and military technology make Russia the strongest military obstacle to US hegemony. To neutralize Russia, Washington broke the Reagan-Gorbachev agreements and expanded NATO into former constituent parts of the Soviet Empire and now intends to bring former constituent parts of Russia herself–Georgia and Ukraine–into NATO. Washington withdrew from the treaty that banned anti-ballistic missiles and has established anti-ballistic missile bases on Russia’s frontier. Washington changed its nuclear war doctrine to permit nuclear first strike.

All of this is aimed at degrading Russia’s deterrent, thereby reducing the ability of Russia to resist Washington’s will.

The Russian government (and also the government of Ukraine) foolishly permitted large numbers of US funded NGOs to operate as Washington’s agents under cover of “human rights organizations,” “building democracy,” etc. The “pussy riot” event was an operation designed to put Putin and Russia in a bad light. (The women were useful dupes.) The Western media attacks on the Sochi Olympics are part of the ridiculing and demonizing of Putin and Russia. Washington is determined that Putin and Russia will not be permitted any appearance of success in any area, whether diplomacy, sports, or human rights.

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/02/14/russia-attack-paul-craig-roberts/

[octoberlib]

1. Thanks for the info.

I wonder who's funding them. Putin has accused the US of being behind the protests. I've read The Shock Doctrine , so it wouldn't surprise me.

[MattSh]

21. According to Victoria Nuland, US State Dept

The USA has funneled $5 billion into Ukraine. Presumably this is since independence, not during the last few months, which equates to around $220 million a year, assuming it's spread equally each year.

Not sure if that total includes the approximately $250 million spent on a new embassy compound in Kiev.

Remember too that Ms. Nuland is married to Robert Kagan, of PNAC infamy.

Specific reference beginning at 7 minutes, 25 seconds

[loudsue]

36. The oil sheiks are behind the fascist turn to the right across the globe.

Not just the Arab sheiks, but the ones in the USA as well. (Kochs, Bushes, etc.).

And they've got the money to do it. They make billions of dollars every DAY.

[newthinking]

59. Welcome to the new "Cold War"

As someone with relatives in the Ukraine (that I am concerned for), I can also verify that we are not getting a clear picture of what is happening.

Personally, I *really* want Ukraine in the EU! but I know the full story about what they were offered, the financial crisis, and why the government basically was forced to reject it. No doubt, Putin has muddied the water. But so has the west. What the west *could* have done instead, would have been to offer a more generous financial backing package, say like instead of spending 6 Billion $$ supporting a fairly radical minority, they offered some of that money as a positive incentive to offset the trade war that Russia was threatening? The world bank instead made a smaller offer with the "usual terms" as part of the deal that would have led Ukraine into financial servitude.

This whole campaign is actually hardening much of the population, especially Ukrainians who are ethnic Russians. They know that there is a good chance that if this particular group gets power, they will invite policies that disenfranchise and discriminate against half the country.

There were things that did not make our media during the "Orange Revolution", such as some of the major party players hate speech and the poll rigging that also occurred in the west. But this time it feels like there is much more at risk if the truth, which is much more complicated than what is presented on our TVs, continues to be pushed aside by political aspirations and the modern, heavily financed "tug of (cold) war" that is occurring.

Ukraine needs change, no doubt about it, but plunging Ukraine into civil war while misrepresenting groups that actually represent a small portion of the population is not the way to go about it.

[greytdemocrat]

2. Smells like the BFEE...

[uponit7771]

3. Once McCain got involved I knew something was wrong

[Berlum]

4. "Smirk. Sneer" - Johnny McC (RepugliCrank)

[kenny blankenship]

32. McCaincer standing next to NeoNazi leader Oleh Tyahnybok

You know you got a Nazi problem when even Bidniss publications like BusinessInsider start to notice it.



U.S. Senator John McCain, center, speaks as Democratic senator from the state of Connecticut, Chris Murphy, second left, and Opposition leader Oleh Tyahnybok, right, stand around him during a Pro-European Union rally in Independence Square in Kiev, Ukraine, Sunday, Dec. 15, 2013.

"Nowadays Svoboda (which means freedom in Ukrainian) is one of those reconstructed modern European far right parties — it is aligned with the British National Party and the French National Front, for example — and it has gained some kind of electoral legitimacy, winning 10 percent of the seats in Ukraine's parliament in 2010."

"However, the party's past is seriously murky. When it was founded in 1995, the party called itself the Social-National Party of Ukraine (SNPU), and it had a swastika-like logo. While it eventually split from its more right wing members, the party remained focused on celebrating Ukrainian ethnic identity in opposition to Russia and Communism."

"Tyahnybok himself was expelled from the Our Ukraine parliamentary faction in 2004 after giving a speech demanding that Ukrainians fight against a "Muscovite-Jewish mafia" (he later clarified this by saying that he actually had Jewish friends and was only against to "a group of Jewish oligarchs who control Ukraine and against Jewish-Bolsheviks [in the past]&quot . In 2005 he wrote open letters demanding Ukraine do more to halt "criminal activities" of "organized Jewry," and, even now, Svoboda openly calls for Ukrainian citizens to have their ethnicity printed onto their passports."

[2naSalit]

53. When I saw that as a news source

last night, I wondered about that too. This info makes more sense. Shock Doctrine stuff is the usual suspect in this sort of thing. TBTP usually depend on our lack of knowledge about other countries and cultures to spin their BS before we have a chance to learn the truth.

[freshwest]

37. Yep, that's always been a dead give away for me as well. n/t

[Puzzledtraveller]

5. k&r

[Bluenorthwest]

6. Paul Craig Roberts, co creator of Reanomics and Alex Jones Show guest....

Sorry if I don't care for you sources. Skipped the thing after seeing the source.

[cali]

14. had exactly the that impact on me.

[okaawhatever]

43. Agreed. For one, there's an analysis of what joining the EU does to the country, but not a

contrasting opinion of what joining the Russia trade council does. The protests weren't just over not signing with the EU but the very quick 180 and subsequent quick acceptance of Russia. I have always heard that was more at issue.

[Are_grits_groceries]

7. Paul Craig Roberts writes for Rense and

Global Research isn't exactly a great source either.

I know there are difficulties with accepting any EU ties with it's austerity message. However, you seem to be painting the Russian government and Yanukovich as a better alternative.

There are bad bargains all around with no easy answer.
I understand you live there, but that doesn't mean you have no agenda or that you aren't seeing this from a narrow point of view.
It's an impossible situation to untangle and it's not easy for any of us but especially for you who live in the middle of it.

We are too far away to judge with great accuracy and yet ironically, you may be too close.

[malaise]

8. Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Great OP

[kenny blankenship]

33. Exactly! Sssh! this is a Democratic site!

We don't discuss how our government is stoking a civil war on the European mainland, which at best will result in a UN Charter violating partition of a sovereign nation, which will likely result in ethnic cleansing and maybe a good old fashioned pogrom, with avowed Fascist parties taking power in a coup against a democratically elected government, and which could even possibly culminate in a great power conventional/nuclear stand-off, because the ulterior motive of the whole fucking thing from the US-western Oceania side is to spread destabilization right into the heart of our old rival, Eurasia.

[pampango]

9. Don't polls show that a plurality of Ukrainians prefer a closer association with the EU rather than

with Russia?

Didn't both candidates in the final round of the presidential election in 2012 campaign in support of closer ties with the EU? (I don't know whether the candidates really believed that policy or were just politicians saying what they thought people wanted to hear. In either case it is interesting that neither campaigned for closer ties with Russia.)

If you are arguing that polls, campaigns and elections don't matter, because we understand the global forces at work and Ukrainians should just go home, sit down and shut up, we disagree. Massive sustained protest movements - whether in Tienanmen Square, Zuccotti Park or in Independence Square - are not inherently right wing or fascist.

Thousands of people protesting and living in tents for months through a Ukrainian winter genuinely believe they are there for an important reason. Tea party protests in the US are much shorter, less well attended and weather dependent than what has happened in Kiev or what happens in the Occupy movement.

[MattSh]

15. It's about 50/50

Poll: More Ukrainians disapprove of EuroMaidan protests than approve of it

About 45% of Ukrainians support the demonstrations in favor of Ukraine's closer relations with Europe, known as Euromaidan, while 48% do not support them and 7% are undecided, a poll of 2,600 respondents conducted in Ukraine on January 17-30 has shown.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/more-ukrainians-disapprove-of-euromaidan-protests-than-approve-of-it-poll-336461.html

One of the main driving force behind the protests, some would say the main one is Svoboda. Svoboda has often been accused of anti-semitism, anti-gay, and racism. See especially the Criticism section at the following link...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

[pampango]

24. "A poll conducted October 2-15, 2013 by GfK Ukraine showed three times as many Ukrainians favoring

the association agreement with the European Union as supporting the Russian-led Customs Union:"

45% favored the EU agreement, 14% the Customs Union with Russia, 15% join neither and 26% had no answer.



http://www.brookings.edu/blogs/up-front/posts/2013/11/18-viktor-yanukovych-losing-europe-ukrainian-public-pifer-thoburn

Also, young people favor a closer association with Europe so that will be Ukraine's future whether Yanukovych and Putin like it or not.

[JackRiddler]

65. How about you present the numbers without the spin?

Read without your slanted commentary, the poll (which was in October 2013, four months ago and before the "uprising" led by the extreme rightwing party) shows that almost 45% of respondents at the time were for the EU agreement (remember: with all polls it is respondents), almost 30% were against (i.e., for the Customs Union, or against both agreements) and more than 30% were unsure. Hardly the 3-to-1 slam-dunk that you have falsely presented, pampango. And, of course, a fluid situation: what people (including the young) thought before fascist mobs supported by U.S. government money started burning Kiev may not be what they think today.

[pampango]

66. The "3-to-1 slam-dunk" I presented clearly compared those favoring an EU agreement (44%) to those

favoring a Customs Union with Russia (14%).

A poll conducted October 2-15, 2013 by GfK Ukraine showed three times as many Ukrainians favoring the association agreement with the European Union as supporting the Russian-led Customs Union:

45% favored the EU agreement, 14% the Customs Union with Russia, 15% join neither and 26% had no answer.

You could (and did) lump the 15% who want Ukraine to join neither with those who support the Customs Union and say that 30% are against the EU agreement. Fair enough. Of course, I could just as easily combine that 15% who want neither, add it to those who support the EU agreement and say that 60% oppose the Customs Union idea.

It is indeed a fluid situation, but I think that acknowledging attitudes that existed before it started is relevant even if subsequent events may have changed them one way or the other.

[JackRiddler]

69. You're deflecting.

You presented the 3:1 of EU:Customs Union as though it were an indicator of overwhelming popular support for EU. It was not. Which is all I said (as a non-supporter of the CU). Support for EU, according to that poll (which gives only respondents, of course) was at 45% in October, definite anti-EU was at 30%, uncertain was at over 30%, and that's all the poll showed.

[pampango]

72. That's your interpretation. I posted the actual poll results which shows that less than 50% support

an EU agreement. If I were interesting in promoting a mirage of "overwhelming popular support for EU", I would not included the poll results that prove I am wrong in the same post.

Not a very effective salesman, am I? A real salesman would have just presented the 'spin' and left our the actual poll numbers.

As you say, "definite anti-EU as at 30%" - granted. And the "definite anti-Customs Union" was at 60%. What did Yanukovych do? He signed up to the Customs Union. I see less than 'overwhelming popular support' for that decision.

[JackRiddler]

75. Same deflection, second time.

Repeat ad infinitum, I presume?

I didn't say anything about Yanukovych or the Customs Union.

[pampango]

80. Deflection is apparently a two-way street. You're not contradicting anything I posted.

You presented your interpretation: "shows that almost 45% of respondents at the time were for the EU agreement ..., almost 30% were against." And I presented mine. We both used the poll results to back up our respective arguments. How is one a 'deflection' and the other is not?

I didn't say anything about Yanukovych or the Customs Union.

Perhaps you should have. After all Yanukovych opting for the Customs Union has a lot to do with why Kiev is where it is today, so it would seem to be kind of important. While there was not "overwhelming popular support" for the EU (45%), there was a whole lot less support (14%) for the policy that Yanukovych chose. If you wish not to discuss that, I understand.

[joshcryer]

56. Yes, but at this point it is against the anti-protest law.

The majority of protesters are protesting against the law, not for EU integration.

There are also ethnic Ukrainians who haven't forgotten what the Soviets did to them so there's that long held resentment toward Ukrainian ethnic Russians, who, unsurprisingly support Putin and his policies.

[geek tragedy]

10. Paul Craig Roberts is a batshit crazy bigot.

So his carrying water for Putin makes sense.


Thread trashed.

[freshwest]

38. But, clocks! And I rec'd it for the part prior to the Father of Reaganomics there... n/t

[Tommy_Carcetti]

11. This is pure bullshit.

Anyone who wants to boil the events in Ukraine as either some sort of proxy war between the EU and Russia, or claim that it's nothing more than a bunch of neo-Nazi rabble rousers, are extremely naïve to what's actually going on.

What's actually going on is the boiling over of a lot of anger from the Ukrainian people about the ongoing corruption and suppression of human rights from the Ukrainian government. And when Yanukovych cut the deal with the Russians, it was viewed as a last straw by many. Not necessarily because the Ukrainians were so emotionally invested in the EU, but because of the centuries long mistrust that Ukrainians have had with Russian due to the subjugation of Ukraine by Russian in a variety of forms, from the Russian Empire to the Soviet Union.

This article presents a much better picture of what the unrest in Ukraine is all about than some of your dubious claims:

http://www.businessinsider.com/understanding-euromaidan-2014-1

[Fred Sanders]

12. Quite frankly, if you want to argue against someone who is arguing that a protest is fascist

supported it would be better to not link to an article from a vehemently capitalist publication.

The link also points out that the focus of the protests is the democratically elected President Viktor Yanukovych. Not the EU agreement. Viktor Yanukovych legitimately beat his main opponent — the world-famous woman and former Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko.

And the author's angle about Ukraine having to essentially join NATO and extend the sphere of military influence of the West right into the heart of Russia if the Ukraine were to sign the EU trade and political agreement is something of importance to consider.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

16. With Yanukovych, anything legitimate is suspect.

How quickly people have forgotten the 2004 elections and resulting Orange Revolution.

[MattSh]

17. Of course, they're not exactly MY claims.

The claims are the claims of the respective authors.

Plus there's a number of dubious claims in the link you cite too.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

22. You have to understand I have family members who have been involved in the protests.

And for anyone to insinuate that my own family members are merely patsies for either neo-Nazi nationalists or some sort of geopolitical Western hegemonistic interest is frankly insulting.

The reasons for the protests are pretty clear on the wall. The Ukrainian people are tired of governmental corruption, and any move toward Russia is going meet serious resistance for long standing historical reasons that long predate the EU and the current Russian Republic.

That people who might have interest in EU or Russian alignments, or people who might identify themselves as radical neo-Nazi nationalists, might see a certain value in getting involved in the situation, is not denied. However, it is light years from the big picture and you cannot deny that at the heart, this is a homegrown Ukrainian movement.

[Fred Sanders]

27. Thailand, Venezuela and Ukraine protestors ALL cite "corruption" to overthrow recently elected

democratic governments, you don't see the pattern?

Not to mention Egypt, where it was used to successfully reinstall a military/fascist government, just like the good old days, over another democratically elected government.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

28. Corruption in the Ukrainian government is very well-documented.

From both inside and outside Ukraine.

[Fred Sanders]

29. Exactly my point. It is also well documented in Thailand and Venezuela and in Egypt, but the

point is to use legal means to overthrow a democratically elected government, not violence.

[joshcryer]

55. Um, it didn't become violent until they passed the anti-protest law.

Basically rendering them unable to protest.

So they should've just went home?

[El_Johns]

47. It's documented in the US government too. Tell me a government that doesn't have well documented

corruption.

[JackRiddler]

76. So? This is true of most governments.

Does it justify a violent overthrow by a movement that includes neo-Nazis at its head?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

77. At its head?

You really think all those people in Maidan Square are neo-nazis?

[JackRiddler]

81. Do you read English?

Apparently not. What's puzzling is that you can write it. Not a good combo.

In other matters, is it true that you like to drown little kittens just when they're at their cutest? Why?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

82. And you clearly are ever so versed in charm and interpersonal skills.

If your actual personality is anything like your online persona, you must be a real joy to be around.

You claimed the Ukrainian opposition movement had Neo-nazis "at its head," implying that the movement was being lead by fascist ultranationalists. While I'm not saying that element isn't completely absent from the large swath of protesters, to claim that it is being lead by such people is quite a charge.

Don't try to backtrack now from your own words.

[JackRiddler]

83. I wrote what I wrote...

It's right here, and much shorter than your attempts at exegesis:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4535719

People can read what I wrote in my words, as opposed to yours. Your second attempt to spin what I said is slightly more accurate than your first, or at least contains more words actually attributable to me, though still presented with hostility and distortion.

But I'm sure at some point you'll get there. Good effort.

As for your personalizing this: Whatever, it's out of an old handbook. If you say something stupid, I point it out as such. No varnish, and nothing personal. It's typical of those who have no defense to then get all sanctimonious: Oh boo hoo, I'm being bullied by elitists who speak language! Halp!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

84. You are quite possibly the most insufferable (jerk) I have met in all my years at DU.

And that can be gleaned solely from this one particular exchange. Good lord.

When you say someone is "at the head" of something, you denote that that person or persons is leading the charge.

You know what you said.

[freshwest]

40. Shoot. I can't get it to load. Don't know what's wrong. Is it for subscribers only? n/t

[Tommy_Carcetti]

68. Should work. Try again. nt

[Demeter]

18. I smelled a rat when the EU terms came out.

Nobody in their right mind would give away their everything for that!

You and your family, stay safe, Matt. You know you have friends here, if needed, although what safety lies in the land of the unfree and cowardly, I'm not sure. Still, it's a big place, easy to hide, even now, if one wants to.

[mountain grammy]

19. Thank you for some much needed information and for the other posts on this thread..

We were trying to talk about this situation over dinner last night and came to the conclusion we know nothing. Bookmarking this tread so I can have a better understanding of what's going on over there.

[JDPriestly]

26. I'm with you, mountain grammy. This situation is incomprehensible.

Can't take sides. I don't trust the McCain crowd. They usually want war with Russia or anyone just to have some kind of war to make money from. But I certainly don't trust the other side either. The Russians would love to have the Ukraine to exploit as the Soviet Union exploited most of Eastern Europe. Neither side inspires my confidence and I really don't know what is going on except what I see and read here. So I can't form an opinion. Maybe some third choice will come up?

[redqueen]

20. Thanks for this post.

Frankly anytime the western mainstream media reports on protesters without framing them as lawless malcontents, I start taking a longer look at the reports about the situation.

[JVS]

34. +1

[stillwaiting]

45. I think that is a very wise way to begin assessing things these days. nt

[El_Johns]

48. +1. The only protesters who aren't 1) ignored or 2) framed as lawless malcontents are the ones the

US government supports.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

67. Maybe they aren't actually lawless malcontents. nt

[PatrynXX]

23. I've already read about this BS

The main reason they are protesting is corruption. But the President here is no saint. and his loyalty is with Russia. Plain and simple.

As for the Opposition. I really don't wish to take the leaders side but the protestors are different...

[quadrature]

25. tell this BS to the Baltic peoples.

then tell it to,
Poland,
(former)East Germans,
Romanians,
etc etc etc etc

[Adrahil]

30. And then there is this...

"Later, local journalists managed to establish which organizations have been tapped to make up this “Ukrainian front.” The fight club “Oplot” (“Stronghold”) declared itself an enemy of the Euromaidan, with the group’s leader, Yevhen Jylin, declaring, “I was born in the USSR and I am ready to make war for that state. Men, be ready to die; women, put on your black kerchiefs. The war is already started. Our enemies should know that before we pass them to police, we can break off their legs or hands or knock out their eyes and it will be absolutely legal. Nobody will be punished for that. The law is on our side.” And on the Oplot website, one can read messages such as: “Yesterday we caught a protester and cut his ear.”"

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/18/ukraine-erupts-in-new-violence.html

[pscot]

31. Valuable perspective

Thanks for posting.

[libdem4life]

35. informative thread. I have another viewpoint to share because I know nothing about this situation.

But I do know that every little country the US invades, liberates, controls, ends up with a military base or two, an embassy or two, and gigantic price tag we pay, and pretty much nothing else changes. The people mostly go back to their regular lives, corruption just changes hands a bit, and all of our "good works" being concluded, life remains essentially the same...except for one more token on the Risk Board for the US. We don't change cultures...occupying troops never do.

I do not want an absolute American Empire, which is sadly the only place this leads to, other than some cataclysm. Manifest Destiny has been re-directed to the entire globe. This country has a well-functioning Kleptocracy...thievery with "permission"...corruption aplenty and governmental social control of our own. The Christie situation is the norm, not the exception. His hubris outreached his clever political machine.

Imagine the 1%'s glee when we own the whole globe...where this logically ends, without some cataclysm. Just like ambulance chasers, they'll be along in a jiffy. Imagine the tax burden when we have bases, soldiers, support services, huge "green zones", vehicles, gasoline guzzlers at 4 miles to the gallon, all over the world. (Remember, the 1% pay little or no taxes) We're Number One...in being taxed to death. Minimum wage? Sorry. Social Security? Going to have to work longer. Food Stamps...got to feed our soldiers and the rest of the world, sorry. Pensions? (crickets).

There were many reasons the Roman Empire collapsed...and it wasn't a military collapse. It was in a large way, the above situation. The Citizens could no longer fund the Empire.

Does that make me heartless when North Korea and other countries act inhumanely? Does that make me ignorant that many countries have corrupt political systems? But do I want to pay to "not fix it"? No.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Without an opposition axis...regardless of how evil or inhuman or, possibly misrepresented, the American Empire marches on? Imagine our current crop of Republicans/DINOs et all ruling the globe. Sobering.

Here's a link I post every now and then...as a reality check... http://academic.evergreen.edu/g/grossmaz/interventions.html It was mostly black and brown countries, but now we seem to be going for the Slavs/Balkans, as well.

After we concluded killing our own, we started on the rest of the globe.

[El_Johns]

50. No -- sometimes things get worse. Witness Iraq; witness the mafia state of Kosovo; etc.

In some cases it absolutely seems that the purpose is to make things worse.

[libdem4life]

73. Indeed. In fact most of the time. I was trying not to be hyperbolic.

[factsarenotfair]

51. "Manifest Destiny has been re-directed to the entire globe."

That explains a lot.

[MadrasT]

39. Thanks for sharing your perspective.

*This* is why I still come to DU.

[Quantess]

41. Interesting. Thanks. (no text)

[Xolodno]

42. There is a lot of mis information out there...

But here is the rundown.

Half the country supports closer ties with Russia and siding with the EU means being USA/EU's bitch...which is fueled by American Imperialism, seeing what Greece went through, seeing how Georgia was nothing more than pawn, etc. The other half supports closer ties with the EU and siding with Russia means being Putin's bitch...which is fueled by history of old world Russia and soviet union domination.

Another problem...Ukraine is broke. EU's package isn't that good...and they are loathe to risk anything more due to corruption in all the political groups. The USA wants the EU to venture more of their cash...hey...its not the USA's money! Because they want a foothold at Russia's doorstep since they lost Georgia and former Georgian President "Sackashit-vili" couldn't get the job done and ran to the USA for a cushy University job.

Now with the specter of economic problems...you would think everyone would jump on board with Russia's package...but...well...let me show an example...see those who vote Republican against their own best interest. It seems many think accepting the EU's package = virtual EU Membership...when in reality...just a first step in a long and painful process. They point to the Baltic nations as an example...but the Baltic nations forged agreements with the EU and Russia and refused to be anyone's Bitch....that's how they became successful and didn't get caught in-between. But the powers that be, have made it a choice between on or the other.

Ukraine's sin being a country that borders east vs. west and having "opportunistic" politicians.

[El_Johns]

44. Thank you for the backgrounder.

[MysticHuman]

46. Well done...

Great information to keep abreast of the situation.

[nadinbrzezinski]

49. Matt I do hope you do not mind I copy paste, for reading at leisure

and stay safe. IMHO what we are seeing is a revolution, with echoes to the 1917 revolution at least in process.

[MattSh]

60. I'm not sure I would classify it as a revolution, not in the classical sense...

A real revolution would trash the current system for something different. This is not that. The opposition want some cosmetic changes in the current system, specifically removing certain powers from the president and giving it to parliament. Most of the time after independence, the President was at the top of the political system. This changed for Yushchenko after the Orange Revolution, becoming more of a parliamentary system, but Yushchenko often acted like he still had those powers, with little complaint from parliament. More power went back to the president officially in 2010. The opposition now says they do not want the president to have these powers, but should they take over the government, my guess is that they'll be singing a different song.

Many cynics over here now describe the Orange Revolution as a time when power was transferred from one group of gangsters to another group of gangsters. None of the three main opposition leaders inspire much confidence in me.

Oh, share as you see fit.

[Bennyboy]

52. Kicked and rec'd

seems to me though it is a larger anti this guy kind of thing as well...

[MattSh]

61. Oh, there's definitely a strong anti-Yanukovich thing going on...

that's true. I just wanted to fill in parts of the story the MSM refused to touch.

[Bennyboy]

62. Excellent work thanks

Things I did not know or would I ever know if not for this thread.

[2naSalit]

54. Thanks for sharing

I appreciate your time and interest in explaining this.

[Progressive dog]

57. One thing is missing from this, the truth that

the President of the USA is not a dictator like the soviet leaders were. We do not have satellite states like the soviets did, like the Ukraine that Putin wants back. The trade agreement is with the EU, not with the USA, not with NATO.

[sabrina 1]

58. Thank you, another one of our and our Western Imperial Allies' 'proxy wars'. Hillary explained it

after the shame of Libya, now a destroyed state also. We don't put OUR armies on the ground due to our unpopularity regarding 'bringing democracy' to places who are left wondering about the difference between Democracy and Dictatorship, (see Iraq and Afghanistan eg).

[Bennyboy]

63. From CNN and please read the comments

especially the long one...



http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/18/world/europe/ukraine-protests-explainer/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

[Spider Jerusalem]

64. You're ignoring the elephant in the room of ethnic Ukranian nationalism.

This is probably what lies at the heart of the conflict, more than anything. This map tells the story:



See also here: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/01/140129-protests-ukraine-russia-geography-history/

The best longterm solution would probably be partition.

[JackRiddler]

71. Yeah, because partition works so well, see Yugoslavia.

What about the majority-minority blocks within the minority-majority areas? Partition is a great long-term solution a) if you are a very naive liberal humanitarian who's barely conscious of the ineherent imperialism in your proposal; or b) if you are CIA looking to plunge Ukraine, and Russia, and Europe, into a decade of ethnic cleansing and proxy war based on obtuse categories taken from the irrational and outdated handbook of traditional beliefs. What about all the people who don't identify strongly either way, or, e.g., who think of themselves as Russian-speaking Ukrainians, or global citizens, or whatever? I suppose they can just be given the same choices as those who in 1991 thought of themselves as Yugoslavians, and believed they had escaped the old ethno-religious matrices: join, run, or die.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

70. People without the proper context are misreading the EU issue.

The reason many Ukrainians were so upset by Yanukoych's decision to snub the EU in favor of Russia wasn't so much because Ukrainians wanted to be part of the EU, but because it was a move towards Russia which infuriates many of them.

Eight years in Ukraine is nothing compared to centuries of tension and antipathy between Ukraine and Russia.

[Blue_Tires]

74. I think ultimately there is no ONE reason people are getting involved, and

there are people with legitimately good intentions in their hearts and downright evil shit-stirrers with ulterior motives exploiting the situation on BOTH sides...

The only unanswered question is what is the "percentage split?"

[gwheezie]

78. Thanks for this thread

I was on one side because of an emotional reaction to brutality and the meager news reports initially, now I admit to not knowing enough about either side. I took some time to look at the links and find some more information about the situation over there. What is clear to me is this is very complex and deserves more than a knee jerk reaction.

[truebrit71]

79. +1

I too have been interested in finding out more about this situation and this thread has been very helpful...