White Knight

[boston bean]

There is a movement out there that will try to convince you that any male who is a feminist ally, is actually a traitor to the male gender. Or is one who is just trying to ingratiate themselves with women.

This obviously is a bunch of bunk. But it has found a place in the hearts of some. And it is used to try to shame male feminists or allies, with the hopes that this framing will keep them from speaking up.

Don't fall for it.

I appreciate Will Pitt and Warren Stupidity's posting. They are not white knights. They are feminists or feminist allies who happen to get it and don't hate feminists. Remember the MRA movement blames and hates feminism for everything from fighting for equal pay to how the military is structured. It's a bunch of bullshit.

I just saw a post from someone stating that Wills thread was chivalry pretending to be feminism. This type of thinking and framing is so dangerous for women. It is why you will see a lot of feminists on DU pointing out these things out. For some reason these types of thoughts are making it to the mainstream, and they must be combatted.

Here is a link to one of the most popular MRA sites on the web concerning this subject. It will make you sick. When reading please try to extrapolate those articles to instances of it that you may find here.

The White Knight Problem

This is all aggravated by the unfortunate continued public denial of the legal and social elevation of women and the denigration of men in our culture. Everyone is aware of this problem, but most people – including men, and especially White Knights, are busy rationalizing, denying and pretending it’s not there. White knights are traditionalists, and heroes, and within western culture, they are a toxin. These are men who practice chivalry. White knights are males who defend women, but not because women are people – which might be noble. Rather, they defend women only because they are women. This almost always encompasses a willful blindness to the behavior and utterance of the women so defended.

http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/chivalry/the-white-knight-problem/

You can also read this one. This one should make you want to puke. All in their justification that feminists are an enemy to be dealt with and any male who sees it the way a feminist or woman might is a traitor to their gender:

I am glad that I put up my own video about the Lara Logan rape, because it gave me some valuable insight into the work that needs to be done in order to set men on the correct path to their own empowerment. The reactions revealed to me that many “MRA’s” don’t fully understand what the concept of gender war is all about and what it fully entails.

In the video I said that if I were to see a woman being raped I would continue on as if nothing ever happened. And I still stand by that statement without apology. I assert that I am 100% justified in this line of thought.

The fact that I said this must have triggered some innate male protector instinct in many MRA’s that the rest of us who actually understand what gender war is all about eschewed a long time ago. Their main argument is that I’m promoting violence against the entire female gender by saying that I wouldn’t risk my life to protect a woman from violence unless she was a member of my family.

I think the problem here is that maybe men have not yet started to consider that when women and society at large decided to burden men with the job of selflessly saving women from violence, that this was, in and of itself, an act of violence against the entire male sex.

http://www.avoiceformen.com/misandry/chivalry/a-message-for-white-knights/

Funny, I thought helping someone in need to the best of your ability was the human thing to do.

[snooper2]

1. pretending to be a feminist to ingratiate with women is WAAAAYYYYY to much work-

Now, on the other hand---

[boston bean]

2. What does this mean?

I'm going to ask before I make an assumption.

[snooper2]

4. Well, you have to put it together with this video

By the Greatness that is Garfunkel and Oates!!!!

Pregnant Women are Smug
Everyone knows it
Nobody says it
because they are pregnant

[boston bean]

8. nope, don't get the connection.

[snooper2]

12. Bruce Lee?

[Glitterati]

3. OMG. Let. It. Go.

Have you not turned DU into an unpleasant environment for long enough?

Must this stupid ass war continue? For how long? Perhaps you can give us all a heads up how long you're going to keep this obnoxious bellyaching ongoing so that those of us who are sick of trashing all your stupid threads (on both sides) can just take a sabbatical from DU.

I am a woman. I am a feminist. I am sick of being painted with your militant feminism.

Let. It. Go.

[boston bean]

6. So, you are in agreement with the MRA articles? I'm just asking,

Cause I'm not really sure how you feel about it, since you didn't address it at all, and only decided to berate me. How is pointing this out militant? It's fricken feminism 101.

It's truly astounding that your first thought is to make personal attacks on me when I point out this very serious issue.

[Glitterati]

9. I guess I will make myself more clear

This kind of BS on DU is simply uncalled for. You have your own feminism forum, yet you feel it necessary to come to GD to make it unpleasant and continue your stupid wars over and over and over and over.

I am a lone woman; a widow, raising a daughter. In the years since my husband's death, I have purchased a home, I have raised a daughter who is so self confident and intelligent, who graduated from HS a year early as class valedictorian, and moved into a management position as a 16 yr. old in her job. I am a feminist and I've raised a feminist.

But, neither of us run around making life unpleasant for all those around us by SCREECHING feminism over and over and over and over and over and over.

You behave like you're at the local swimming pool and have one goal - to point out anti-feminism even to the toddlers who are just there to enjoy a swim.

It's old.

It's tired.

It's unpleasant.

And, most importantly, it's winning no converts!!!!!!!

You are turning even your allies away from your cause.

If you search hard enough for the ugly side of life, you'll find it. But, quite frankly, I'm tired of seeing your ugly side constantly.

Take a moment to smell the roses and find something to be HAPPY about.

[boston bean]

13. Showing support for feminist male allies and providing information

is something you have an issue with?

Also, you got anything besides personal attacks?

[Glitterati]

15. Not a personal attack. Just the truth.

You turned Will Pitt's supportive post into nothing but another war.

You flung so much garbage all over it with this post, you made it ugly.

You went from I support all women to I wouldn't stop a rape I witnessed.

That's from support---->ugly.

In one fell swoop, because you had some asinine point you wanted to make so you could continue this useless war on GD.

You FOUND ugly and tossed it all over Will Pitt's support.

[geek tragedy]

14. "screeching feminism"

for a 'feminist', you have an interesting way of saying things

I recommend you use "trash thread" instead of complaining.

[Glitterati]

16. Oh, believe me, I have

My trash is overflowing with this garbage.

But, it's way time to use my feminist voice to call a stop to it.

Clearly, ignoring it hasn't done any good.

[geek tragedy]

19. funny that you reserve the use of your 'feminist voice' to characterize other

women as 'screeching' and not to, oh, I dunno, talk about stuff that matters to feminists.

If this is your 'feminist voice' I would certainly not want to see your non-feminist voice.

[Glitterati]

20. Oh, I see....

You're only qualified to be a feminist if you agree with the people who set out to destroy it.

OK, whatever you say.......

[geek tragedy]

23. well, no, most people do not define 'feminism' as 'telling uppity women to STFU'

perhaps if you had shown an interest in feminist issues here before appointing yourself censor the claim would carry more weight.

anyone can claim to be a feminist.

[Glitterati]

28. Never said STFU

Just pointing out that these wars on DU GD are being perpetuated for one reason and one reason only.

I said take it where it belongs.

I live feminism every day.

I breath feminism every day.

I don't find a need to shove my feminism in the face of every human being I find on the planet.

I happen to think we lead by example.

And, quite frankly, I find this GD WAR to be a horrid example of the feminism I believe in.

[geek tragedy]

30. the only time, as far as can be determined, you've uttered the word 'feminism'

is an effort to tell feminists to shut up, which is what you're doing in this threadjacking of yours.

why not lead by example and stop telling women to shut up?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

161. They will NEVER accurately represent what you say to make their arguments.

Everything is based on reducing words to meaningless gibberish so that it can be reconstructed as an indictment of whoever displeases them at the moment. You can't win because the game is rigged.

[treestar]

191. that's exactly what you said

you find these subjects "unpleasant" and therefore, the rest of us should stop posting about them.

[Squinch]

64. Aren't you requiring that people do what you want in this argument? You don't want

to hear it, and therefore others shouldn't talk about it?

As you say you have "called a stop to it."

I have heard your call. I disagree with you.

[boston bean]

26. I know you have had the "white knight"

accusation slung at you here on DU?

So, it's not something that hasn't or doesn't happen. I don't get the posters problem with my pointing out how MRAs who exist on this website frame issues in order to further a really disgusting agenda.

[Glitterati]

29. Repeating

I live feminism every day.

I breath feminism every day.

I don't find a need to shove my feminism in the face of every human being I find on the planet.

I happen to think we lead by example.

And, quite frankly, I find this GD WAR to be a horrid example of the feminism I believe in.

My last post on this stupid thread as I add it to my overflowing trash bin.

[boston bean]

31. good for you.

[one_voice]

40. You're wasting your time...

it doesn't matter how much you do to further the cause. How hard you work, how many lives you've changed.

How many minds you've changed.

NONE of that matters because you disagreed.

Under the bus you go. I have never seen women so intent on trying to demean, humiliate, and ostracize, the very people that are working for the same things.

I said it before if you get down do nuts and bolts we probably agree more than disagree. Some of the differences are generational, some are personal experiences.

In the end we all want all people treated with equal respect and consideration.

[Squinch]

72. That isn't what is going on here.

What doesn't matter is that she has decreed that these things can't be talked about by people who want to talk about them.

She didn't disagree. She ordered that it be stopped.

She was perfectly free to disagree, but that's not what she did. In her words, she "called a stop to it."

[one_voice]

109. That's a valid point...

I'm all for discussion. I missed the previous post. No one should be telling anyone to stop talking about what matters to them.

That being said, I still believe what I wrote to be true.

[geek tragedy]

38. Multiple times, by the kind of 'man' who subscribes to avoiceformen. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

33. garbage ... oh my

doors.

or something.

good lord.

[Old and In the Way]

206. In real life, I've never met a HOF type feminist.

They only seem to exist on progressive anonymous posting boards. Wonder why? If they spent 1/10 their time talking issues that affect all women - reproductive rights, equal pay, and the overall Republican agenda - instead of trying to cleave this board by gender, I'd take their views seriously. What I see is a group effort to drive 95% of the people, who don't play along with their 'world view', off DU.

[pacalo]

230. Neither have I, but I have met the personality types.

Their need to control others & the way they go about doing it is a turn-off to everyone around them -- except for those who perhaps have a need to be dominated.

[pintobean]

18. "I recommend you use "trash thread" instead of complaining."

That advice could have saved a lot of trouble with the SISI thread. It was clearly marked, as to what it was. One didn't even need to click on it, they could have just clicked that little trash can box.

[geek tragedy]

21. As would have been moving it to The Lounge where it belonged in the first place. nt

[pintobean]

25. It hasn't been locked.

I'm guessing the hosts didn't agree with you.

It happens.

[geek tragedy]

32. well, sure, the GD hosts can't even agree on whether to lock threads that

explicitly violate the SOP of GD. Some even whine publicly when such threads get alerted on.

So, it's kind of hard to have respect for a process that makes the jury system look respectable.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

39. Please, Stop Saying that.

it did not belong in the lounge either.

but, fine.

rewrite the lounge SoP and I will stay out of there because those kinds of threads are welcoming to half of DU.

Please read the SoP for the Lounge.

Thank you.

[geek tragedy]

41. the lounge has an SOP? nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

42. straight up, YES ... *omg. am I actually playing this silly game?*

Statement of Purpose

Our social forum. Relax with your friends and talk about off-topic stuff. The Lounge is supposed to be a friendly, welcoming place for EVERYONE. No cliquish behavior. No drama. No political arguments. No whining about DU.

[geek tragedy]

46. "friendly, welcoming place for everyone"

yeah, doesn't work that way on the Internet without strict moderation, something that's been abandoned here.

I wasn't playing a game, I always thought the Lounge was pretty much an 'anything goes' kind of area--more of an internal libertarian paradise within DU.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

49. I hope you realize that this phrase =

libertarian paradise

is an oxymoron.

and that you are being totally ironic.

[geek tragedy]

71. of course. libertarians would have turned the garden of eden

into a toxic wasteland.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

83. uhm ...

of course. libertarians would have turned the garden of eden DU3 into a toxic wasteland.

there, fixed it

Just my opinion.

As usual, YMMV.

[hfojvt]

117. it used to be a place

where some of the ladies of DU would post pictures of their own bodies. Even I once posted a topless picture of myself (gasp, swoon) so I am not sure how an SI thread would not fit.

But there also was a phase where Skinner announced "the fun is over" and that the children of Sombertown would never play again.

I mean, no more sex threads. But those restrictions come and go.

[lumberjack_jeff]

58. The irony of men telling women how not to talk around other women is rich.

What does a chivalrous gentleman do when lady fair is under assault by another?

[geek tragedy]

69. i would have no idea. i am equally abrasive to men and women here.

I was noting that a woman said that she was going to use her 'feminist voice' to tell other women to STFU and leave men alone.

Using classic misogynistic dog whistles like "screeching."

Say, for you men who insist that white knighting is a real thing, what phrase do you use to describe women who tell you what you want to hear in exchange for your approval and appreciation?

[lumberjack_jeff]

77. Friends? People?

Unlike the HoF regulars, we don't have a word for it.

[geek tragedy]

84. Ah, so only men can be gender traitors then , gotcha nt

[tkmorris]

127. That feature would be a handy way to deal with lots of threads

And yet I still see lots of complaining about the things that get posted. I will assume you give EVERYONE this advice, yes? Even those whose point of view is similar to your own?

[geek tragedy]

128. there's lots of stuff i do trash nt

[Scootaloo]

55. "You have your own feminism forum"

Did you... did you just tell Boston Bean to go to the back of the bus?

You behave like you're at the local swimming pool and have one goal - to point out anti-feminism even to the toddlers who are just there to enjoy a swim.

Well, it's not a public pool, it's a politically-oriented messageboard that serves as a stew of progressive ideas exchanged between the patrons of the site. There's going to be discussion of social issues like this in general discussion.

By the way, there's a simpler word for anti-feminism; it's called misogyny.

Take a moment to smell the roses and find something to be HAPPY about.

Humans are sapient beings capable o complex thoughts and multiple states of emotion on varying subjects; I can be happy that I just cooked an awesome breakfast, yet still acknowledge that climate change is going to fuck us all over. Boston Bean is concerned about hte misogynist skewing of this "progressive" website, but that doesn't transalte into some sort of life of unhappiness.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

88. "You have your own feminism forum" reads like Stay in your place!!!!!

and who are the control freaks again?

so confusing.

not.

[RC]

116. I agree with you.

The only place I seem to have a problem with "feminists" is here on DU.
And it is always the same ones and their enablers. All they are doing is turning people off of DU.

My ex packed a suit case one day and walked off down the street one day and left me with our two kids. Girls, ages 3 and 5, at the time. I raised them, mostly by myself. School functions, parent teachers conferences, the whole 9 yards. Both are fine, Liberal women in their early 30's now. The youngest is a graduate engineering student at the Universal of Colorado. Or a dirt engineer, as she calls herself. She also teaches, besides going to classes. A real wiz at math too.
Raising these kids and holding down a job gave me real insight in what is involved in child rearing. I was called Mr. Mom at the time.
I ask each of them which parent they wanted to live with when they turned 16. Both chose me, citing me as the better parent. I parented them. I did not spoil them or try to turn them against their mother. Their mother did a good job of that herself by trying to spoil them. They were smart enough recognized what was happening.
I doubt either one would recognize many of those that call themselves "feminist" here. Or even understand the name they gave their increasingly exclusive group. Disrespectful bullies, would be closer to the truth.

[pacalo]

234. You did a great job with your daughters, RC.

I would assume by having read many of your opinions that your parenting approach was full of encouragement & positive direction. And I like very much the fact that you didn't badmouth their mother; you stood back & allowed her own behavior to speak for itself.

[RC]

235. Thank you.

I'm proud of them. The oldest one moved down here from North Dakota, a year or so ago, to be with her then new boyfriend. So I get to see her again.

[RC]

147. +10

It's old.

It's tired.

It's unpleasant.

And, most importantly, it's winning no converts!!!!!!!

You are turning even your allies away from your cause.

If you search hard enough for the ugly side of life, you'll find it. But, quite frankly, I'm tired of seeing your ugly side constantly.

Some of us can separate DU from the real world, some apparently can't.
Your words tells me you are one of those that can see the real world as it is. DU was never set up to reflect the real world. It was set up as a place for Liberals, progressives and Center and Left of center Democrats would have a place to come together and talk. A traid mark of Center and Left of center Democrats, is empathy. I am having trouble seeing much empathy from this noisy group that call themselves "feminists"
DU should not be a place to be bullied under the guise of what some call "Feminism", but really isn't. The DU brand of "feminism" is counter productive and makes the work of real feminist here that much harder.

[treestar]

190. Feminism makes life unpleasant?

For who?

[HangOnKids]

205. A 16 year old in a management position?

Really? Care to tell us where? The rest of your screed is ludicrous.

[pacalo]

232. Way to twist Glitterati's words!

So, you are in agreement with the MRA articles?

This one tactic is done over & over by the most argumentative HoF members & it usually begins with, "So..." It does nothing to enhance your credibility.

Glitterati was spot-on in expressing how others feel about the constant whining:

Have you not turned DU into an unpleasant environment for long enough?

Must this stupid ass war continue? For how long? Perhaps you can give us all a heads up how long you're going to keep this obnoxious bellyaching ongoing so that those of us who are sick of trashing all your stupid threads (on both sides) can just take a sabbatical from DU.

I am a woman. I am a feminist. I am sick of being painted with your militant feminism.

Let. It. Go.

[MattBaggins]

7. What she said is in no way militant

These women do not have to shut up to please you.

You didn't have to post in this thread now did you?

I am a man. I see no militant feminism.

Keep. Rocking. On.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

85. I see a very vocal minority turning DU into a hostile place

For no reason except that people on both sides of the issue want to count coup on their enemy.

[geek tragedy]

89. yet you never, ever, ever criticize anyone but the feminists

you may as well drop the 'both sides' phraseology since it's pretty clear only one side bothers you.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

95. You choose to hear what you want to hear. I was going after

Straight Story on another thread and spoke out very directly against the airborn soft porn thread.

And because I know you are wrong on this in my case, I can point out how no one is really listening to one another. It's just one round after another of hurt feelings, umbrage, yada yada.

It is because I was seeing the lunacy on both sides that I typed my OP wishing the gender wars would cease.

[geek tragedy]

99. if I have mischaracterized your behavior, I apologize nt

[Marr]

97. I don't often agree with you, but here I do.

It feels like two opposing cliques just decided to move their shouting match into the library so people would have to pay attention to them, and it's tedious as hell.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

101. Thank you! I do like it that we at DU can be

Open enough to admit we agree
With someone else on a topic even when we disagree on 80% of other topics argued about here.

[Scootaloo]

98. Well, it comes down to the very simple proposition of DU iself

This is a liberal space. If you call your half-baked lieralism "progressivism" well that's okay too. But we all come here with the understanding that DU, as a whole, is not a place to be hostile to liberal / progressive notions.

Of which, feminism is most definitely one, and has been for over a century.

If feminist perspective makes DU feel hostile to you, well...

[Pretzel_Warrior]

106. That is not the issue at all

As echoed by others of both genders on this thread. Sometimes the third parties see 2 people beating each other over the head and speak up to ask them to stop.

The way I know it's not just gender issues and an unwillingness to give feminists appropriate consideration on DU is one of the leading posters about feminist issues is again blocked from posting due to over the top language. People aren't giving each other enough credit or respect. Judging other DU'ers as people based on one topic on a message board is a difficult proposition. Especially when their views on a wide range of other issues don't raise alarms.

That being said, I was really pissed at the men who've spent the last couple of days purposefully goading women and others who have stated their feelings clearly. That is no way to act.

[boston bean]

112. Really?

"People aren't giving each other enough credit or respect" ??

you "RECOMMENDED", this:

3. OMG. Let. It. Go.

Have you not turned DU into an unpleasant environment for long enough?

Must this stupid ass war continue? For how long? Perhaps you can give us all a heads up how long you're going to keep this obnoxious bellyaching ongoing so that those of us who are sick of trashing all your stupid threads (on both sides) can just take a sabbatical from DU.

I am a woman. I am a feminist. I am sick of being painted with your militant feminism.

Let. It. Go.

Sorry, I just can't take you seriously when the evidence shows something completely different.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

122. I agree because it is a pointless war

Where people on both sides spend thread after thread saying the same things over and over again--often in rude language.

I respect your opinions and right to express them but you are clearly getting a critical mass who wish this gender-based arguing would be tabled at DU for awhile.

It is amazing that midterm elections, Ukraine violence, Olympics--nothing is big enough to dissuade people from rehashing the minutiae of this issue.

[boston bean]

123. the problems still exist even if I didn't say a damned thing.

Everything remains the same.

I'll continue on. Thank you!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

126. Your choice. I have expressed my opinion as have others

We'll see where this goes.

[Scootaloo]

120. Ever heard the term "bystander"?

I know it's no popular to say so - everyone on the internet is of course a hero and a scholar, according to themselves - but there really are people who get involved, but have no fucking idea what's going on.

So saying "peopel of oth genders think so!" really is immaterial. Having chromosomes doesn't actually make you informed.

The way I know it's not just gender issues and an unwillingness to give feminists appropriate consideration on DU is one of the leading posters about feminist issues is again blocked from posting due to over the top language.

"Over the top language" means she used the word "fuck." Do you know how much I use that word? I'm practically fucking "fuck," that's how much I use that fucking word.

[CFLDem]

129. Absolutely

1) Equal rights for women = feminism

2) Equal rights for women, except to choose being valued as a sex symbol = regressive oppressive Victorian prudery.

3) Constantly screeching about #2 = extreme paranoia

#1 is the only progressive position, of which I have yet to see anyone on DU contradict.

[Scootaloo]

135. Nice straw man there, the old "You hate sex!" argument

While some are indeed judging the models' choices to, well, be models, that isn't the impetus here -and those people deserve criticism for doing so.

Rather the impetus is to examine and discuss the impact that use of a woman's body as an object has on society as a whole.

So yes, the model does choose as she will. I know models, they're not naive and of course have a wide variety of opinions (interestingly I've seen many of their "defenders" characterize them as idle rich bimbos - Opiate did this with Kate Upton, apparently because she's a model she's too dumb to know when she's having a medical issue.)

But what choice does the 14 year old girl make, when the society around here decides to judge her by the standards of photoshopped models?

What choice is made when her brother grows up surrounded by the image of women as sex objects that exist for his whims?

There's nothing wrong with being a model. There's nothing wrong with posing sexually. Nothing wrong with being an exotic dancer or porn actor, either. It's not personal judgement against those appearing on the prints an on the screen.

It's an examination of the context of those media in total and their impact on the society at large.

I'm not going to demonize, say, Kari Byron for her spread in FHM - she's sexy and knows it and I can't blame her for showing it, if that's what she wants to do. But I have no problem with seeing that magazine, as a whole enterprise, as a fairly crude reduction of women into props.

[CFLDem]

169. So it's ok for individuals to make the prints

but not for those prints to appear in public spaces because some already insecure people might feel bad?

That tells me right there the issue is with the offended and not with the 'offense'.

[Scootaloo]

170. Do you want to take a correspondence course?

'Cause really, my time isn't free, and I'm kinda operating on the assumption that DU posters have at least the basics of social theory down.

[CFLDem]

183. Where's the dissonance with social theory?

I concurred that photoshopped images have an effect on individuals.

Acknowledging the effect and reacting to it are two separate issues. I propose that removing such images to avoid damaging individuals is doing them a disservice by ill-preparing them for the reality that not everyone is model material.

[nomorenomore08]

212. But you seem to be conflating any and all criticism with calls for censorship.

If someone were to demand the government step in and prevent the SI swimsuit issue from being published, I would dismiss them as lunatics too. But who, exactly, has done that here? All I've seen are posts questioning the effect of such imagery on people, society, as a whole - young girls in particular - and perhaps a suggestion that others think critically about these issues as well.

Where in there do you see anyone screeching for censorship?

[JTFrog]

111. Says one of the most vocal.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

118. Lol. Not on that issue.

[JTFrog]

188. Yet you're still skating on thin ice. n/t

[Pretzel_Warrior]

192. what does that mean? and who are you?

discussion boards tend to have some who are vocal on issues. otherwise it pretty much ceases to be a discussion board and it turns into a silently post linkgs board.

what opinions do you have on any issue? I don't recall.

[JTFrog]

193. Oh, I just meant you were one of those skating on the border of

of the hidden post dilemma. And you probably don't recall me because it takes a lot to get me going and I lurk far more than I post. In fact I used to like your posts. But things have gotten pretty fucked up around here lately.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

194. oh. well, I don't know. I don't try to hide who I am. what you see is what you get

for the most part. I guess you could say I have been "skating on thin ice" but I think I'm figuring out how to navigate some of the more emotionally charged issues.

[Scootaloo]

44. That's fucking funny

"Militant feminism"?

Do you even know what the word "militant" means?

[Glitterati]

56. Oh, but I do

Perhaps you need some help understanding it.

mil·i·tant
ˈmilətənt/
adjective
adjective: militant

1. combative and aggressive in support of a political or social cause, and typically favoring extreme, violent, or confrontational methods.

---------------
And, like I said, this OP had one purpose.....to take Will Pitt's support thread and throw garbage all over it to create yet another confrontation in GD over this subject.

Some people simply don't know when to stop. Obviously.

[Scootaloo]

66. So... you don't

extreme, violent, or confrontational methods.

It's like A Tribe Called Quest, you say the whole thing.

[nomorenomore08]

213. +1

And who exactly has been "extreme" or "violent" around here? A few folks may have finally lashed out after being strawmanned and misrepresented over and over again, but I can't entirely blame them for that...

[redqueen]

67. If she perceives the feminist discourse she's reading as "SCREECHING",

then that means it's "militant"?




I'm getting pretty sick of that code word - militant. We are all militant about various progressive issues on DU, it's only feminism which seems to pose a problem for certain types of people.

[Scootaloo]

80. Do you read the use of "militant feminist" as "feminazi," too?

'Cause that's how it looks on my dog-whistle radar.

[redqueen]

94. Yep.

Funny how people somehow don't realize that they're tipping their hand when they let loose with certain terms.

[Scootaloo]

103. And will come back demanding "exact quotes" when you call 'em on it

I sometimes wonder if people understand that literacy, as a concept, goes beyond being able to verbalize text, and includes an understanding of intent and context, theme and agenda.

[nomorenomore08]

214. They probably understand that, but pretend otherwise. Or so my instincts tell me...

[Pretzel_Warrior]

78. RECOMMENDED!

[lumberjack_jeff]

81. +1 n/t

[Marr]

93. +1

I'm sick of this cool-kid-gang-fight as well. It's turned General Discussion into little more than a dump full of trollbait posts designed for ego stroking and "gimmee attention" bullshit.

[1000words]

107. +1

Thanks for saying it.

[Sheldon Cooper]

125. You seem a bit unhinged by this.

Perhaps a break from DU is in order?

[OilemFirchen]

198. Can you envision her clutching her pearls?

Do you think a fainting couch is in order?

[quinnox]

162. Thanks for posting!

I know you probably knew you would be attacked for disagreeing by the usual gang, but you spoke up anyway. Sometimes I get the feeling that the feminists who are like you, are trying to be silenced and intimidated by bullying attempts from the "militants", as you call them. They seem to be able to get pretty aggressive, in my opinion anyway.

[Glitterati]

168. Of course I did

But, I also had a couple of larger points I wanted that gang to make for me:

1. That Skinner should probably step in and get GD back under control for a little bit, anyway. Lots of folks are just done with this war.

2. Despite their belief that they are "feminists" the usual gang can't avoid acting like catty, petty women when one of "their own" dares to disagree with them. Which is EXACTLY why I have never participated in a feminism discussion on DU - one look at the HoF forum tells you all you need to know on this subject.

3. That there is a great deal of swarm activity where a conspiracy to disrupt DU, especially GD, is going on.

And, most of all, that even when support is offered and given, the gang feels it necessary to fling more garbage.

[quinnox]

173. Awesome post

I agree with you 100%!

And swarming is right, that is a routine tactic used by this gang. I can see the "bombardment" starting already, as far as general discussion goes. It has happened many times before, they carpet bomb general discussion to try and force people to swallow their viewpoints.

[Old and In the Way]

209. I'd sign up for a gender baiting thread moratorium.

But that would make approximately 20 people here very unhappy.

[nomorenomore08]

218. I would too. If it were applied equally to all "sides," that is.

[Old and In the Way]

226. Certainly!

And if those posters persist on posting divisive flamebait , give them the boot. I'd offer up the Men's Forum and HoF as 2 worthy groups to dismantle.

[nomorenomore08]

229. Yet I, personally, see value in both, even if I don't 100% always agree with either.

Doing away with them might make DU slightly less divisive as a whole, but I don't think the loss of thought-provoking discussion would really be worth it. Just my opinion, though.

[pacalo]

237. I agree.

At this point, it's all about 'flinging poo' -- a reason that separate forums were created for hot-button topics.

[nomorenomore08]

216. But that's a fallacy in itself, dividing social justice activists into "acceptable" (i.e. polite

and conciliatory, in one person's opinion) and "unacceptable" categories. Which frankly reminds me of how society, for centuries, has divided women into "good" and "bad" based solely on their sexual behavior and/or sociopolitical attitudes.

Does "aggressive" equal "uppity"? I certainly hope not, but certain posts do leave that impression...

[Union Scribe]

166. very good post. nt

[treestar]

189. WTF?

Why can't these subjects be discussed? How is it more unpleasant than any other issue?

[Aerows]

201. You wonder

It has enough fucked up elements as it stands.

Feminism isn't an excuse to despise everyone that is male anymore than racism is an excuse to despise everyone that is white. And for heterosexuals to despise gays.

Lines.

They are there for a reason.

[11 Bravo]

5. I guess I'm more of a Gray Knight. I will take to the barricades in defense of ...

the right to choose, access to contraception, equal pay for equal work, and the Violence Against Women Act; just to name a few causes which I fervently support.

But I simply can't get too worked up over an annual swimsuit issue in some magazine.

[redqueen]

91. Did you get "worked up" over the watermelon and fried chicken lunch?

How about undocumented immigrants being referred to as "illegals"?

Just curious.

[11 Bravo]

124. Yes I did. And I don't know a single African-American or undocumented imigrant ...

who did not share my umbrage. On the other hand, I know dozens of women who don't give a flip about models in swimsuits.
I have no desire to belittle someone else's sensitivities; but your analogy, comparing terms which are widely accepted to be pejoratives with an activity which is not so universally decried, is tenuous at best.

[redqueen]

132. You minimize objectification by calling it "models in bikinis".

And the reason so many women don't give a flip about objectification is because women participate in their own oppression like no other group ever has or will.

Do you know many ethnic minorities raise their own children to believe that they don't need equal rights? That they shouldn't be treated fairly? Yet we see this all the time with women.

We see religious and rightwing women telling their daughters that they should be submissive to their husbands. We see women of all ideological stripes telling their own daughters that certain kinds of women who dress in certain ways are "asking for it" (whether "it" is rape, harassment, or even attention).

Objectification is not a joke. It isn't something you get to just brush off because some women don't get it and dont care to.

[pintobean]

143. "women participate in their own oppression"

That right there is the problem. You think you get to decide who is oppressed. It doesn't matter what they think. What you see as oppression, most see as freedom. They see you as the oppressor.

[polly7]

146. Plus a *'ing bazillion!!! Well said, pintobean. nt.

[pintobean]

155. I think she has me on ignore.

It's a shame; I was really hoping she would respond to this.

[polly7]

156. LOL. ... I hadn't seen that.

I'm guessing if you're not on ignore, you still won't get a reply.

[Old and In the Way]

211. That was absolutely eye-opening.

Kind of makes you question this poster's veracity on the subject of objectification.

[RiffRandell]

199. Stop making sense!

It's way too simple!

[Old and In the Way]

210. Finally...that's it in a nutshell.

I don't get how a very small minority gets to define what is oppressive. Very undemocratic. Reminds me of Republican fundie type males who want to set the standards of what is acceptable social behaviour for everyone else.

[pacalo]

239. Damn, I didn't know how oppressed I was...

I'm not wringing my hands enough to cause everyone around me to feel as though they were walking on eggshells?

I'm not badgering people to act according to my own personal specifications?

I'm not getting on the proverbial soapbox every day to dictate my likes & dislikes to other adults?

I'm not doing the double-standard "do as I say, not as I do" schtick?

Must be why I'm more worried about what the Republicans have in mind for women than about badgering the people around me about their choice of words or pictures of women in swimsuits or doors being opened for me. Got to get my priorities in the proper order.

[RBStevens]

145. Objectification is absolutely no joke

when I see a grown man ogling my 13 yo daughter , the full up and down thing, as she walks past him into the freaking public library I don't think that's funny. At all. Why? because I know what that man is thinking and it's not anything along the lines of - oh she's so pretty.

[redqueen]

149. Thank you.

It is tragic that all over the world men are conditioned by these constant portrayals to see women (and girls, as you described) as sex objects ... and many women are conditioned to perceive it as complimentary.

The dearth of women in leadership positions in media, business, government, etc. is partly a result of this form of oppression. I had such hope after Miss Representation came out. I thought it'd be a watershed moment. Was I overly optimistic or what.

[RBStevens]

153. Miss representation was great -

but unfortunately it looks like it's another fabulous piece that ends up being just more *preaching to the choir*

Btw, ran across this earlier today:

"Women Still Underrepresented in Film and TV, Study Says"

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/women-still-underrepresented-film-tv-681485

[redqueen]

157. Thanks for that link, here's one for you!

Old but good.
http://reelgirl.com/2012/03/females-51-of-population-but-minority-in-imaginary-characters-and-real-life-power-poitions/


It's interesting... I don't think I would feel better if I ignored all this information and only ever smelled the roses and found things to be HAPPY about rather than looking for things that need to be changed in order to make the world a better place. I can smell the roses and look ar funny stuff anytime. I come on du to talk politics. Feminism is political. Even the feminism that makes so many people so ridiculously upset.

[RBStevens]

167. Oh wow! Feminism is politics?!

Yeah it sure is and it seems strange that many people don't understand that.

Thanks for the link

[Petrushka]

179. "The object of my affection.....can change my complexion.....from white to rosy red..... --->

A top hit of the 30s:

&list=RDN3TP8aPD0bA


And . . .

As Grandma used to say: "Monkey see, monkey do."

[opiate69]

10. It seems some of your own compadres have "fallen for it" as well...

I guess they're"MRA"s too?

Posted by Misstee on June 4, 2012, 4:28 pm, in reply to "Let's talk about Steve Lecher for a minute"

I find male "feminists" to be extremely creepy, in general. The only thing I ever think of when I encounter one - especially one that is a loud supporter of sex positive nonsense - is that thinks he has figured out a way to get into more women's pants

http://members.boardhost.com/duckies/msg/1338841708.html

[loli phabay]

11. this is a vibe i get from some too, not all just some

it seems that some want some sort of validation from other groups.

[1awake]

17. So wait....

If I support feminism I may be creepy... and if I don't I'm sexist? I'm sort of lost.

[loli phabay]

22. nah, not you per se but there are people who support all causes for reasons of trying to get some

sort of validation from groups pertaining to it. also there are arguments about what feminism we are talkng about, there seems to be so many different personal views on it that you have people who consider themselves feminists being attacked due to their not adhering to some rigid standards.

[JVS]

61. There is nothing you can do to change what you are.

It's like brother Mark says.

[geek tragedy]

34. so you endorse the 'white knight' concept as offered by the avoiceformen crowd then. nt

[loli phabay]

36. why not read what i wrote, unlike yourself i dont read avoiceformen

but you are in denial if you dont know that people have a multitude of reasons for supporting any cause some good some bad.

[geek tragedy]

47. so you would say the same about white people in the NAACP? nt

[loli phabay]

57. no doubt there are some who are there for reasons that you would not find pure

humans have a mriad of reasons for stuff that they ally to. to think otherwise is to not understand human nature.

[geek tragedy]

59. would you also agree that there are women who seek approval from men by telling

men what they want to hear?

[loli phabay]

60. hence my use of the words people and humans, its part of us all

[maddezmom]

70. I know you didn't ask me the question but my answer would be I am sure there are in some cases

Yet in other cases maybe some women and some feminists actually have opinions that line up with some men that other feminists don't agree with completely. Does that mean we are less than other feminists or not true feminists? I don't think so, just think we disagree. Just like I think men can be feminists but others on DU, not so much.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/125514945

Doesn't mean they are wrong just means I have a different opinion.

[boston bean]

76. No, it doesn't but if you line yourself up with MRA's and

their talking points against feminism, I guess that's a different story.

They exist to bash feminist. Blame feminists for all the evil in society. Trick is, is to discuss feminism, from a feminist perspective, not an MRA one.

[geek tragedy]

79. part of that depends on how one characterizes feminism.

is it a movement, a general set of goals, or an ideology?

If it's an ideology, sure a man can be a feminist. ditto if it's a general set of goals.

if it's a movement, then it's their movement and we men are allies.

my wife, for instance, was really puzzled when I raised the question of whether men can be femininsts, since she views it as an ideology--why wouldn't a man be able to have that ideology? was her response.

[Scootaloo]

75. I think you're missing the point

Here, let's have Tatsuya Ishida, writer of the comic strip "Sinfest" explain it to you:



DU has its clutch of these guys too. They lurk on porn threads, mostly.

[opiate69]

86. I'm very familiar with that ignorant little comic...

In fact, it's usually posted by "feminists" here who also have the habit of turning around and claiming that they would never deign to claim that there is no such thing as a "true feminist (tm)"

[nomorenomore08]

220. But to declare who is or isn't a "real" feminist is to claim an authority no individual really has.

Just saying...

[Scootaloo]

236. I would argue the point

Feminism is an ideology, it can be adopted, it can be abandoned, it can be altered or what have you. it is NOT an identity, it isn't an indelible part of a person. If your rhetoric and positions conflict with the baic outlines of the ideology, yet you still claim it, you're either lying or confused.

[nomorenomore08]

238. Well yes, if your ideas are mostly the opposite of what you claim they are, then that's hypocrisy

at the least, if not outright deliberate dishonesty. But there's enough disagreement about what even constitutes "feminism" - or "socialism," or "freedom" - in the first place, that people can differ (even strongly) on specific issues and still reasonably claim a similar ideology, even if some issues - like reproductive freedom - are or should be non-negotiable.

[cinnabonbon]

160. I noticed that she wrote "feminists" not feminists

And that is a valid criticism. Some men will pretend to be feminists while still trying to be sexist jerks. Some even write about wanting to kill their ex girlfriends and oh, 'how they've changed now, how terrible they were!" Or they write about how women should like having guys come on their face, because they're only familiar with third-way sex positive feminism.

Real male feminists don't do that. Real male feminists are allies when it's sorely needed. "Feminists" on the other hand, use the labels to try to get away with being creeps.

[NuclearDem]

24. It's the "white guilt" of gender.

No man/white person would have any reason to support women/AAs other than to get laid/seek validation/assuage guilt.

[boston bean]

27. Look at the first post to the OP.

on edit, or just look right above your post.

[redqueen]

96. Well said.

Not that there aren't valid discussions to be had about other manifestations of these concepts (i.emen who seek to rescue women because they perceive women as incompetent / helpless, or demand to take charge of feminist groups; white people who show extreme sympathy with ethnic minorities on visible / marketed issues, but fail to care about or even notice other insidious forms of racism)... But you can tell easily based on the way these terms are used and by who's using them whether they're valid or bullshit.

[Iggo]

35. I'm immune to their consultations.

[bemildred]

37. They remind me of you guys when you get all worked up, to be honest.

Although not near as good at it. I think they are attempting to copy feminists, or what they see as feminist's methods.

I would say that some men protect women just like they would a weaker man, because it's a duty that comes with size, to protect those weaker than you, as the better educated should protect the ignorant, the smarter the dumb. And we all need it from time to time. Part of the problem with our ENTIRE culture is that it does not protect you, we are all fair game, all this horseshit about growth and competition, like that was not what is ruining the planet.

Some of the things they say are very funny, like both excerpts you posted up there. I feel so denigrated and toxic.

[boston bean]

45. absolutely ridiculous, and something I really never thought

I'd see here. But hey knock yourself out with identifying with that agenda, in whatever way you want.

[geek tragedy]

63. well, here's the funny thing

the last people on DU that I would suspect need protection and defending are boston bean and redqueen and the women in HoF.

[bemildred]

102. Everybody needs protection sometimes.

When you are young, when you are old, when you sleep, when you behave stupidly. And that's why prudent people avoid making enemies. You never know when it's going to bite you in the ass.

But yeah, you have to learn to defend yourself around here. Not that I mind though, the infowars keep things lively here.

[geek tragedy]

105. well, sure everyone needs protection, wasn't disputing that. nt

[The Straight Story]

43. There is a movement on DU to convince others many of us hate women and feminism

And it rages on and on and on.

Plenty are on the side of feminism, just not on the side of some feminists here.

Men here just want to 'mark their territory' or 'whack off', are creeps, misogynists, we want a white male space and to let women know they are not welcome here, we just want to belittle women, we are for white male supremacy, and the list goes on and on.

[geek tragedy]

50. you forgot the perfunctory reference to opening doors nt

[boston bean]

52. you'll see it right below, don't fret!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

54. ! DOORS !

Last edited Wed Feb 19, 2014, 01:31 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018576493

[Tuesday Afternoon]

53. got it covered below

[Tuesday Afternoon]

51. not all men but, hey if the shoe fits ... or yanno

Doors.

Doors.

Doors.

I can't wait to open the door for an Asian Woodcarver entering The Olive Garden.

[pintobean]

62. Doors

[Tuesday Afternoon]

130. Knock knock

[pintobean]

139. Excellent reply.

[one_voice]

131. Could you tell me...

what are the 'doors' comments are in reference to. I don't get it.

[pintobean]

137. Benevolent sexism.

About a year ago, someone said that men holding doors open for women was an example of "benevolent sexism". I think it was seabeyond, but I'm not sure. It naturally caused a shit-storm.

[one_voice]

144. Oh ok. Yeah I remember...

that thread. Thanks!

[NuclearDem]

110. Only if she's breast feeding though!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

113. while talking on her cellphone!

[Scootaloo]

87. Don't you need to make another OP where you pretend to be persecuted?

I haven't seen one from you for about ten hours, you must be jonesing petty bad.

[The Straight Story]

90. I might make an op, Others make a group of it (nt)

[lumberjack_jeff]

136. +1 n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. It IS chivalry 2.0.

Last edited Wed Feb 19, 2014, 02:08 PM - Edit history (3)

For a group of people who don't have a problem seeing the sexism in a held-open door, I'm surprised that you don't reject the pedestal that the... let's call 'em "white knights" since you're familiar with the terminology... are putting "their women" upon.

No, actually, I'm not surprised. The pedestal looks like high ground and feels like a position of moral superiority, and one can pretend that you got there all by yourself.

At least a door is easier to hold for someone with greater upper body strength. Online, there's no advantage at all.

And yes, there is an innate male protector instinct (I'd walk through fire!!! I'd walk through it both ways!! For realz!), and you're keenly aware of and working it.

This is all aggravated by the unfortunate continued public denial of the legal and social elevation of women and the denigration of men in our culture. Everyone is aware of this problem, but most people – including men, and especially White Knights, are busy rationalizing, denying and pretending it’s not there. White knights are traditionalists, and heroes, and within western culture, they are a toxin. These are men who practice chivalry. White knights are males who defend women, but not because women are people – which might be noble. Rather, they defend women only because they are women. This almost always encompasses a willful blindness to the behavior and utterance of the women so defended.

Thanks for posting this. I read it, and it didn't make me sick. So I reposted it and it still didn't make me sick. I conclude it must be a bug of some sort going around Boston.

If feminism is even passingly interested in equality, then white knights are not feminist allies.

And since these guys are not even officially welcome in the club, it's more than a little tragic and sad.

They'd walk through fire, but just don't suggest that it's the fire of imaginary dragons.

[Starry Messenger]

65. Looks like the hit dogs yelped here in this thread.

[whatchamacallit]

68. Calling bullshit

While I agree with WP's sentiment (and would do the same for my daughter and son), if someone less popular and influential, like myself for instance, had posted that OP it would have been instantly derided as benevolent sexism. Just sayin'

[Vashta Nerada]

82. Yep.

[geek tragedy]

92. that's not true. hostile environment is a very well known and vigorously enforced

concept in virtually every workplace in the country.

it's not a controversial notion to say that DU shouldn't be more permissive to a hostile environment than the front office of Wal-mart.

[whatchamacallit]

100. There should be no hostile environments for women anywhere

I just remember the threads where women (rightfully) rejected the notion that they wanted or needed a man's protection. I understand WP's sentiment, but I would say it fits that notion. You can't have it both ways.

[geek tragedy]

104. No it doesn't, though. allowing a hostile environment is considerered discrimination

under federal law for employers.

opposing discrimination and hostile atmosphere is not being sexist towards women.

[whatchamacallit]

108. Again, his slightly hyperbolic oath

went way further than simply opposing discrimination. If it doesn't qualify as 'benevolent sexism' what does?

[geek tragedy]

114. oh wait, we're talking about Will Pitt not Warren?

My mistake, sorry!

Didn't care for Pitt's piece to be honest--more about his feelings than anything else.

[whatchamacallit]

115. Cool, glad we cleared that up.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

121. I agree but, I rec'd it anyway because it was (I think)

a light bulb moment for Will and I wanted more exposure in case it would turn on more light bulb moments.

[boston bean]

134. The sentiment was in support of feminism.

Not against it.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

138. I understand that ...

in my opinion it was badly worded and phrased but, for Will Pitt, it was excellent.

complete disclosure ... I rec Very Few WP threads.

Shows how high is my regard for What he did say and, I am not quibbling about How he said it.

Just observing is all.

[boston bean]

140. I understand. My post was in support of yours.

sorry if it didn't come off that way.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

141. oh lordy me!

[boston bean]

142. .

[Major Nikon]

148. It's not controversial, it's just wrong

For one thing, DU is not a work environment nor is it intended to even remotely resemble a place of work. Nobody has to stay here for a set length of time as a condition of employment. People tell other people to go fuck themselves. Vulgar language is used. Sometimes threats of violence are used (even against other DUers it seems). All sorts of things happen on DU that would never happen (at least for very long) in any work place. So if you want DU to remotely resemble a work environment, the SI swimsuit edition is going to be the least of your problems.

But let's just ignore all the realities that make this a moot point anyway and pretend for the sake of argument that DU was a work environment and we are all employees who are compelled to stay here. Now let's say there's one room in our building and inside this room is a copy of the SI's swimsuit edition. The only purpose of this room is for viewing the SI's swimsuit edition and perhaps discussing the swimsuit edition with other people who happened to be in the room. Nobody is compelled to enter this room and nobody is compelled to view the magazine. Anyone who enters this room knows the swimsuit edition is in there because there's a sign on the door that says, "SI Swimsuit Edition viewing room". In fact, anyone who was even remotely disturbed by the presence of the magazine within a 50' radius could press a magic button on their desk that would insure they would never so much as ever have to see the door of this room ever again. So now someone files an EEOC complaint alleging sexual harassment (hostile work environment). What do you think the outcome will be? I'm pretty sure I know the answer based on over a decade of HR experience. The answer is the case would be dismissed at the very early stages by the EEOC for not coming within a cab ride of meeting prima facie for a hostile work environment.

[geek tragedy]

150. hoo boy, you're wondering if having a room dedicated for men to gawk at women in bikinis

at an office would raise hostile work environment issues?

why stop there? why not have a room dedicated for the watching of hardcore rape-themed pornography at this office place? By your reasoning, that wouldn't be hostile work environment either. Because, you know, the women can just decide to not go in there. Heck,

No, the reality is that when you start making any part of an office a hostile work environment, you open yourself up to liability.

But, given your rather naked hostility towards the person who came up with the concept of hostile workplace harassment, not a surprise to see you willfully misinterpret it. I mean, it's bad enough you have to (on paper anyways) enforce her ideas.

[Major Nikon]

159. You obviously have no knowledge and experience on the subject

The only purpose of Title VII is a means of redress for employees who have suffered sexual harassment. The burden of proving impact to them personally is on the complainant. That's what prima facia is all about. If there is no impact, there is no redress, and there is no case. There's plenty of case law on this. I suggest you find and read it, or simply continue proving what little you know about the subject. Also noted was how you completely skipped over the first paragraph of my reply.

But, given your rather naked hostility towards the person who came up with the concept of hostile workplace harassment, not a surprise to see you willfully misinterpret it. I mean, it's bad enough you have to (on paper anyways) enforce her ideas.

Your words are forming almost grammatically correct sentences, but I can derive no meaning from them.

[geek tragedy]

163. well of course you see no impact, not like you ever see things from the perspective of women

just in case you're being honest about not understanding it:

you have repeatedly expressed hostility towards the person and philosophy that created the concept of hostile environment harassment under Title VII. Therefore, it's not surprising to see you misapply it as it is the product of an ideology/philosphy/movement that is anathema to you.

[Major Nikon]

172. Either you are speaking gibberish, or I'm too stupid to understand your words

No one person created "the concept of hostile environment harassment under Title VII". It was a product of many people working many years to produce and I can assure you I have tremendous respect for the people who were instrumental in the laws passage and have said so many times here and in other settings regardless of whatever "person and philosophy" you are referring. Furthermore I'm quite instrumental for my company in the enforcement of both the spirit and letter of the law and several people who have found themselves on the wrong side of it have my signature on their walking papers as a testament. Besides anonymous abstract rants on an internet discussion board, what has been your effort on this front exactly?

So certainly you can keep alleging whatever it is you are alleging, but I find you wholly unconvincing, especially since you are only interested in speaking abstractly about concepts only you seem to be able to decode any meaning.

[geek tragedy]

178. Oh dear. This is going to hurt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritor_Savings_Bank_v._Vinson

The Court held that Title VII was "not limited to 'economic' or 'tangible' discrimination," finding that the intention of Congress was "'to strike at the entire spectrum of disparate treatment of men and women' in employment. . ." The Court pointed out that guidelines issued by the EEOC specified that sexual harassment leading to noneconomic injury was a form of sex discrimination prohibited by Title VII. The Court recognized that plaintiffs could establish violations of the Act "by proving that discrimination based on sex has created a hostile or abusive work environment."

Catharine MacKinnon, author of Towards a Feminist Theory of the State, was co-counsel for the respondent Mechelle Vinson, and wrote the respondent's brief.

You see, whenever you do anything that enforces rules re: hostile work environment, you're enforcing Catharine MacKinnon's ideology.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catherine_McKinnon_(feminist)#Sexual_harassment

In 1977, MacKinnon graduated from Yale Law School after having written a paper on sexual harassment for Professor Thomas I. Emerson. Two years later, MacKinnon published "Sexual Harassment of Working Women", arguing that sexual harassment is a form of sex discrimination under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and any other sex discrimination prohibition. While working on "Sexual Harassment", MacKinnon shared draft copies with attorneys litigating early sexual harassment cases, including Nadine Taub, who represented Yale undergraduates in Alexander v. Yale, the first test case of MacKinnon's legal theory.[13][14]

In her book, MacKinnon argued that sexual harassment is sex discrimination because the act reinforces the social inequality of women to men (see, for example, pp. 116–18, 174). She distinguishes between two types of sexual harassment (see pp. 32–42): 1) "quid pro quo", meaning sexual harassment "in which sexual compliance is exchanged, or proposed to be exchanged, for an employment opportunity (p. 32)" and 2) the type of harassment that "arises when sexual harassment is a persistent condition of work (p. 32)." In 1980, the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission followed MacKinnon's framework in adopting guidelines prohibiting sexual harassment by prohibiting both quid pro quo harassment and hostile work environment harassment (see 29 C.F.R. § 1604.11(a)).

In 1986, the Supreme Court held in Meritor Savings Bank v. Vinson that sexual harassment may violate laws against sex discrimination. In Meritor, the Court also recognized the distinction between quid pro quo sexual harassment and hostile workplace harassment. In a 2002 article, MacKinnon wrote: "'Without question,' then-Justice Rehnquist wrote for a unanimous Court, 'when a supervisor sexually harasses a subordinate because of the subordinate's sex, that supervisor "discriminate[s]" on the basis of sex.' The D.C. Circuit, and women, had won. A new common law rule was established."[15]

[Major Nikon]

181. No, it's not

For one thing, I'm not enforcing her "ideology" or "philosophy", I'm enforcing the statute from which MacKinnon certainly did have a role to play in the development of relevant case law. I have no interest in hunting down the post(s) for you, but I can assure you that I've certainly acknowledged and respected MacKinnon's efforts on Title VII, even if I don't agree with all of her views. There's also other subject areas in which I'm in complete agreement with her. Believe it or not, it's entirely possible to agree with someone some of the time yet completely disagree with them at other times. It wouldn't surprise me if there's been times when I've been on the same side as Scalia. That doesn't mean I have to accept the whole of his "ideology".

[redqueen]

151. A politically oriented company that has a "SI Swimsuit Edition viewing room"?

And you don't think an EEOC complaint would be taken seriously?

[Major Nikon]

152. Among a nearly infinite number of other rooms with more being added each day

It would be taken seriously just as all complaints are taken seriously, then it would be summarily dismissed after investigation (assuming it even made it that far which is a stretch to begin with), and yes I'm quite sure of it because I've seen a considerable number of better cases dismissed. This one is a no brainer to anyone who understands the burden of proof required for sexual harassment.

Also noted was how you completely ignored the first paragraph, but then I had no expectations of you attempting to discuss the issue in good faith to begin with.

[redqueen]

154. LOL

Keep on keepin on.

[Major Nikon]

164. I will

Much to your chagrin everyone here is allowed to express an opinion. Some are just more relevant than others and some are incapable of coping with the reality that they might be wrong at least part of the time. So you may very well be right and I may very well be wrong, but I'm reasonably certain I have more experience in this subject than most here having dealt with these issues on a daily basis. So I suppose it's possible I have no idea what I'm talking about, but if that's true at least I've been able to convince my employer otherwise who pays me a considerable sum for my knowledge, ability, and experience in this realm. YMMV.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

119. if you reread your own post you will understand why it is not -

... (and would do the same for my daughter and son), if someone less popular and influential, like myself for instance, had posted that OP it would have been instantly derided as benevolent sexism....

Humans helping humans to live with dignity.

Feminism is a Human Dignity Issue.

Human knows no gender.

Equality for all genders (no matter the sexual orientation) all races, all colors, all creeds.

Helping one another is what it is all about.

Peace.

[nomorenomore08]

224. Precisely. I've never seen this as being "men versus women" or anything equally childish.

Sometimes the truth hurts, and sometimes unpleasant discussions are necessary to illuminate certain issues. Civility has its place, but why should anyone have to be "civil" to those who've relentlessly mocked them and reduced them to strawmen?

[Blue_Tires]

73. +1

On other, less mature message boards than this (imagine that), I've had that white knight accusation thrown at me a couple of times....

[Pretzel_Warrior]

74. You spin me right round baby right round

[ismnotwasm]

133. God I can't stand that site

The most egregious crap floats in there. I read it off and on just to make sure.

"White Knight"; yeah, I'm just a damsel in distress. No I don't see that in feminist men or allies.

I do see it in sexists dinosaurs who miss the point about, well everything. A certain thread on benign sexism comes to mind-- that one was filled with White Knights obsessing over door opening. Strange, so very, very strange.

[nomorenomore08]

225. Maybe they reduce a complex discussion to something small and trivial because that's the only way

they know of brushing aside things that may make them uncomfortable. To which I say, chill out guys, there's really nothing to be scared of here!

[bravenak]

158. I have recently put in a request for this 'White Knight'. No response.

I'll try again.



I've never met this White Knight.

If you see this ' White Knight' you must tell him a fair maiden is seeking him out, and requests his presence post haste! I have many and more tasks for a warrior such as he.
He must not shirk his duties to defend and represent us ladies, as we are merely the weaker sex, made to cleave unto our husbands, or live under the benevolent guidance of our fathers or a strong manly relative.
Oh, but what wouldn't I give for this Knight of Glory, so strong, so brave, so true!
My bosom is bursting with Joy in the knowledge of the existence of this fearsome ' White Knight', I feel my maidenly cheeks aflame, pinked by desire.
Send me my Knight, my dearest White Knight! Let him save me, from loneliness.
Let him use his Sword to tear through all those who mock me, to shelter mine ears from the foulness that pours forth from vulgar mouths. Save me from those who would seek to ravish me. To open my car door, as my weakened feminine arms cannot pull the door, my soft hands finding no purchase on my door handle. And let him yell at idiots in my place as my soft voice cannot be heard above the din of male beast braying madly. Oh White Knight! So brave, so true, so very mine.

[Old and In the Way]

217. Sorry, but this appears to be an Objectification of 'White Knights".

You have lost valuable HoF points on this post.

[bravenak]

219. White knights don't exist.

It's a fantasy. A made up thing. A straw man. A diversion. A fraud. Phony. A figment of the imaginations of bullshit artists.

Calling somebody a white knight is like calling someone a ni@@@ lover.
It's like calling someone a captain save a ___.

Whenever I hear white knights I think to myself ni--r lover. And I don't take the person who said it seriously, hence the daydreaming.

[Old and In the Way]

221. Well, I certainly agree!

Especially when it comes to sharing concepts derived from RW blog sites. But what better diversion than tying up Du with a gender war that keeps both genders from discussing the real issues that affect us all?

[cinnabonbon]

165. White knighting =/= being an ally

Being an ally means speaking up when you see that the situation is getting too much for the weaker party. Being a white knight is speaking over said party without them wanting you to.

I'd say white knighting is only done for the themselves. It makes them feel good in the moment, but it leaves the person you're supposed to help even more helpless.

Being an ally on the other hand is tedious and often unrewarding work. It means being visible. It means having to listen a lot. A man helping a woman CAN be motivated by benevolent sexism, sure. However, an ally would help them no matter what gender they are. Benevolent sexism has its basis in men only seeing women as their gender, so of course they'd need saving. An ally would look at the situation and step in if the person needed it. Not because a woman needed it.

[boston bean]

171. Agreed, but we are speaking about the MRA definition of a white knight.

Which is decidedly different than what you posted above.

[cinnabonbon]

176. That is true. The MRA version is seriously toxic

because they're just trying to silence people who try to help others. Their complete disregard for other's well-being is also seriously creepy.

In the video I said that if I were to see a woman being raped I would continue on as if nothing ever happened. And I still stand by that statement without apology. I assert that I am 100% justified in this line of thought.

Shudder.

[nomorenomore08]

227. They're basically sociopaths. A lot of stuff falls into place when you realize this.

I'm not talking about DU'ers - and frankly I think some of the "MRA" accusations around here are a bit much - I'm talking about the slimy bastards all over the Internet who fancy themselves spokesmen for the entire male gender. And they may try to couch their soullessness in concern about "misandry" and so forth, but comments like the one you quoted are really the tell. They don't just not give a shit about "lowly" women, they don't give a shit about anyone, ultimately - the "men's rights" thing is mostly a convenient pose.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

174. So if I see this guy getting the TAR beat out of him...

I am 100% justified not to call the cops?

[boston bean]

175. I would hope you would at least call the cops.

Do what you could do to help.

[Lady Freedom Returns]

177. Of course.

But it does beg the question. Would he expect someone who could help to do so?

[ismnotwasm]

180. Of course

What is your point?

[Lady Freedom Returns]

182. My point is that he would expect someone who could help to do so.

Yet he would not do the same. He admits to believing in letting a person get hurt. Yet, dollars to donuts, he would call a person that did the same when they saw him in trouble a monster.

[ismnotwasm]

185. I'm a little confused., sorry

I thought this was a hypothetical situation. I avoid these threads generally. What did I miss?

[Lady Freedom Returns]

186. It is just those MRA Crackpots.

I should have never went to the sites. Things they preach is just awful!

[DonCoquixote]

184. the site you mentioned

was one of the more vile sites ever seen. I wonder how many black men go to that site and realize the same language they use on women was the same language used on blacks (especially the affirmative action rants?)

[nomorenomore08]

228. If they're the same ones who get all offended by "gay rights are civil rights" and the like

then no, I don't think they have a sufficient degree of self-awareness to ever realize that.

This may be a sweeping generalization, but I'm only talking about overtly homophobic black men, not black men as a whole...

[LostOne4Ever]

187. They wouldn't do anything?

The MRA just gets stupider and stupider.

The "white knight" label not only is dangerous to equality, but is insulting to men in general. It is basically saying that it is not POSSIBLE for men to actually care about equality or the rights of women. That it is just another way for men to pick up women.

It debases both genders.

[Vinnie From Indy]

195. Did you ever consider that some of the men here do not dislike feminists or their struggle

they just dislike you?

[boston bean]

196. So, we can infer that because they don't like me

they rail against feminism?

[Vinnie From Indy]

200. Why would you infer that?

Much of the resistance you encounter could very well be because some here think you are an insufferable ass. These folks that may feel that way might be ardent supporters of feminism and feminist causes but they object to your specific definitions and conclusions as well as your style of argument.

[boston bean]

204. Because you just said so??

What was my error, here. How was I being an "insufferable ass", as you put it?

[Vinnie From Indy]

208. I never accused you of being an insufferable ass

I was simply posing the possibility that some of the resistance you encounter here may be due to some disliking you and your style of debate. Simply because one may feel you are a bully and appear to enjoy bullying does not automatically make those people anti-feminist or anti-feminist issues. It might very well be that they simply dislike you and your presentation of feminist issues. I guess you could be offended if you confuse your views as being last and only word on feminism.

[nomorenomore08]

233. If it's only one person's opinion, then why the defensiveness, the need to get so worked up?

I mean posters in general, not you personally. And I would be inclined to agree with your conclusions, if folks didn't play the same game they accuse others of - namely dividing everyone up into "good" and "bad" feminists or whatever. Not to mention that those who complain about "tone" are frequently quite nasty and unpleasant themselves.

Look, I'm a guy, I have no right to dictate what "true feminism" is or isn't - not that you've claimed that right either, but some on here have, at least implicitly. There are those who've insinuated that the only true feminists are the "sex-positive" (whatever that really means) ones, and that they personally are also qualified to decide what "sex-positive" means or doesn't mean. So that anyone who, for instance, objects to particularly violent or abusive porn, is "sex-negative" and a prude and blah blah.

Not trying to have the last word, mind you, just offering my own perspective on this...

[Aerows]

197. Women can be White Knights

The day we lay down our lives for other women in Solidarity is the day it needs to be done.

[Vinnie From Indy]

202. I hope you are keeping an eye out for raccoons!

How is the nosebleed?

[Aerows]

203. Not good

Better than last night, but still bad. Thanks for caring .

[mstinamotorcity2]

207. Remember some people

can't un-learn stupidity!!!

[stevenleser]

215. "White Knight" is actually the nicer sounding of two terms that MRA's use.

Mangina being the more ugly and disgusting.

Did someone use either term here?

[NuclearDem]

222. I've been called one, and geek tragedy has been called one at least once just this week.

[NuclearDem]

223. If anyone pushed any other stupid fucking meme from a hate site

They would've been shamed, shouted down, and TS'd damn near instantly.

But push a stupid fucking meme tantamount to the gender equivalent of race traitor from AVFM, people rec it and the admins give you your own fucking group.

What the fuck is wrong here?!

[btrflykng9]

231. That quote from the video and the excerpt from the website are disturbing to say the least

Treating people well shouldn't be stigmatized as a sign of weakness...

[Warren Stupidity]

240. M'lady, doth thou require rescuing?

Always at your service,

Sir Stupidity.