White knights set back equality for the genders

[Harmony Blue]

they come to the aid of women that supposedly can't handle their own situations. True equality is realizing that men and women can grapple with their own conflicts on their own. My definition of equality is that you don't put anyone beneath you or above you.

The reason why equality hasn't progressed with the genders is because we have a segment of the male population that believes that women are inferior but another segment that believes that women do no wrong, and must be put on a pedestal.

[DURHAM D]

1. Wow.

That sounds so mid last century.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

3. it smacks of a Libertarian Philosophy if you ask me.

[DURHAM D]

9. Check this out.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024507789#post141

[geek tragedy]

13. but don't accuse them of objectifying, otherwise

you're either a man-hater (if female) or a white knight (if male).

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. omg. are you fucking kidding me ;;;

[lumberjack_jeff]

2. The flames they volunteer to walk through are those of imaginary dragons.

Sancho! My armor!

[Ohio Joe]

25. Gee... The 'mens' group leader claiming misogyny does not exist...

'Cause... Men are the real oppressed group

[geek tragedy]

36. totally a suprise to see the DU Men's Rights group supporting talking

points from an anti-woman hate site.

[lumberjack_jeff]

47. There's no such thing as a "DU men's rights group".

It's just a windmill, Don.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. Are strawmen the best kind of company?

[Ohio Joe]

58. Then please elaborate...

"The flames they volunteer to walk through are those of imaginary dragons.

Sancho! My armor!"

What exactly is the imaginary dragon?

[lumberjack_jeff]

87. That DU isn't safe enough for "the fairer sex".

and that self-appointed right thinking men like Will "queensbury rules" Pitt must intervene to protect the subset of women who share the sensibilities of those who aren't yet banned from HoF.



Oh, wait... the SI cover was posted by a woman?

[geek tragedy]

101. Warren Stupidity's thread got 168 recs at last count, do all of those people

serve as regulars in HoF?

Maybe it's that a majority of women and men disagree with you and the other chaps who frequent the Hot Celebrity and Porn Appreication user group*.

*Due to your objections, I will not refer to it as the Men's Rights Group.

[lumberjack_jeff]

121. Maybe you should just read what's written.

I find it intriguing and amusing how the rhetoric shifts so seamlessly from "we're oppressed and bullied!" to "No one agrees with you whiny little boys."

It's how I know that I'm right.

[geek tragedy]

127. no, you're spinning the "misogyny is too common here let's stop it" complaint in

equally silly directions.

And, "we're oppressed and bullied" is actually a frequent refrain at the hot celebrity and porn appreciation usergroup. Except there it's sad since it's coming from the privileged group

[Ohio Joe]

106. So... Only members of the oppressed group should fight for their rights?

Equality for all is not a concern outside of that group?

Really?

[lumberjack_jeff]

113. Equality is the only valid destination.

You're not working towards it.

[Ohio Joe]

118. That is a nice catch phrase but is has nothing to do with what I asked

Why avoid what I'm asking? How does all this fit in with your 'imaginary dragon'?

I expect there is a good reason you are just going around and around instead of being clear... Well?

[lumberjack_jeff]

125. It's not a catch phrase, it's an overriding principle.

If you think that women on DU need your help in articulating their arguments because they're women, you're not about equality.

And if we're going to use words like "oppressed" it's necessary to define and quantify.

[Ohio Joe]

126. Who else should I not support? LGBT? AA? The poor? Should I only support white males as you do?

WTF?

[lumberjack_jeff]

131. You don't support issues. You rarely argue issues at all.

You, as you are doing here, attack people personally for disagreeing.

[Ohio Joe]

136. Again... You avoid the question... Who else should not be supported?

I'm not attacking, I'm trying to get you to be clear and open about what you are trying to say. Instead you just keep being coy about it... Don't be afraid, put it out there for everyone to see in plain language.

Who is deserving of support?

[lumberjack_jeff]

144. In general, I try to argue ideas.

I don't try to abstract those ideas onto groups of people that those principles would primarily benefit.

I support workplace safety. I oppose wealth concentration. I support a strong social safety net. I support freedom of choice. I support equal protection under the law.

What you write suggests that you do not. You appear to select a group of people deserving of your support and craft a set of principles that would benefit them.

So, when someone says "Blacks are 6x as likely to be imprisoned as whites", you can be outraged because it violates a set of fairness principles. When someone then says "Men are 11x as likely to be imprisoned as women", you put the fairness principles back in the lock box and pull out the men are inherently violent and suck principles.

I said upthread what I meant about Will and my perception of his "I'd walk through fire and jump off buildings for any woman" post. It is chivalry, a manifestation of protector instinct looking for a reason for martyrdom.

[Ohio Joe]

147. Mixing and matching stats neither proves your point or explains the contradiction of your MRA stance

"Blacks are 6x as likely to be imprisoned as whites" - For the same crime

"Men are 11x as likely to be imprisoned as women" - I don't seem to be able to find anything to back this up... I suspect the reason is that men commit more crimes then women, not that they are more likely to be imprisoned for the same crime... You have evidence to the contrary?

"In general, I try to argue ideas. I don't try to abstract those ideas onto groups of people that those principles would primarily benefit."

Yet... You head up the local men rights group... Sheesh, what a load.

But it still avoids your statement and does not answer... Who else should not be supported, so lets keep it simple... Should I support LGBT rights or should they be on their own?

[lumberjack_jeff]

148. I don't care who you support.

If that support isn't based on core philosophical principles, it's all just marketing and politics.

It shouldn't be about who you support, but what.

Looks to me that you pretty much just read whatever I write, then engineer a set of principles that enable you to be against it.

http://www.prisonpolicy.org/articles/notequal.html

[Ohio Joe]

155. As I thought... Number in prison, not commiting crime...

Dishonesty all the way.

Going to address your contradiction of crying about people who support others outside who they are while you do your best to promote mens rights?

I'm sure you can point to where you object to straight people supporting LGBT people... AA? The poor?

oh... It seems to be only women. That explains why you are trying to pass off this bullshit right off the MRA websites... And doing so wickedly weak.

[lumberjack_jeff]

158. The ellipsis don't improve readability. Or logic.

Yeah. Prison. That's what I said.

Why would you say that blacks are so disproportionately imprisoned? Why would you say that men are so disproportionately imprisoned? If you don't have the same answer to both questions, then what stereotype and bias leads you to that conclusion, and how can you reconcile it with your principles?

I don't support LGBT people, racial minorities, the disabled or the poor because they're groups I have affinity for. I support them because they're experiencing injustice with regard to the principles I hold.

Racial minorities get unequal justice. In most states LGBT people aren't afforded equal protection of law. The poor are suffering primarily because the benefits of the economy are being distributed inequitably.

Because I come at things this way, I can easily defend my views and I don't feel a need to construct strawmen or go dog-whistling and alert trolling to get my way.

[Ohio Joe]

160. Ahhh... We get to the heart. Why do you not include women? No injustice there?

You really believe your bullshit about how men are really the oppressed class?

Where does your hatred of women come from? I've heard it is because you are still bitter over a divorce... Is that true?

The rest of your twaddle is a distraction and already disproved bullshit, try to stick to the matter at hand and stop circling back.

"I don't support LGBT people, racial minorities, the disabled or the poor because they're groups I have affinity for. I support them because they're experiencing injustice with regard to the principles I hold."

So now you change your tune... First it was only with those you are a member of... Now it is women are not oppressed... As I first said, you are claiming misogyny does not exist. A shame you don't have the guts to 'man up' and just admit what you are instead of weaseling around like you do.

[lumberjack_jeff]

183. If your only tool is the personal attack...

... it would behoove you to become more proficient with it by doing even the most cursory research.

Why did you decide you were a liberal? It's not obvious that you hold any principles to bring you here. Fairness? Equity? Justice? They're not principles if you dispense with them whenever the words are used in conjunction with men or some other group with which you're unsympathetic.

Why is poor education of men a good thing? Why is a 5:1 ratio of suicide a good thing? Why is a 12:1 ratio of workplace death a good thing? Why is a 5 year shorter lifespan a good thing? Why is more violent victimization of men a good thing?

And you didn't answer my simple question at all, because, of course, you can't. Women < men therefore I need to protect them like I would crippled people or children is the only principle you appear to hold. They have a word for that: sexism.

[Ohio Joe]

189. bwahahahaha... Only being an MRA is liberal... You are funny

"Why did you decide you were a liberal? It's not obvious that you hold any principles to bring you here. Fairness? Equity? Justice? They're not principles if you dispense with them whenever the words are used in conjunction with men or some other group with which you're unsympathetic."

heh, not believing men are oppressed = not believing in equality... How stupid. Yes, this is from someone who think men are more oppressed then women... Shocking

"Why is poor education of men a good thing? Why is a 5:1 ratio of suicide a good thing? Why is a 12:1 ratio of workplace death a good thing? Why is a 5 year shorter lifespan a good thing? Why is more violent victimization of men a good thing?

'Waaaaaaa... The poor oppressed mens'

If you had the slightest bit of integrity you would take a look at the cause of those stats and be honest about them instead of trying to put them out as some type of evidence that men are the real oppressed group.

"And you didn't answer my simple question at all, because, of course, you can't. Women < men therefore I need to protect them like I would crippled people or children is the only principle you appear to hold. They have a word for that: sexism.""

Of course you try to portray what I have said as "women < men", typical MRA bullshit. The reality is that fearful MRA misogynists wish to continue keeping women as second class citizens and will try to pass off whatever bullshit they can come up with to do so... Including trying to portray themselves as the REAL oppressed. That I support equal rights for women does not mean I think they need my help, it means I am not a member of the MRA hate group... You do know the SPLC considers the MRA's a hate group, right?

[lumberjack_jeff]

191. You mean this article?

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/05/15/intelligence-report-article-provokes-outrage-among-mens-rights-activists/

It should be mentioned that the SPLC did not label MRAs as members of a hate movement; nor did our article claim that the grievances they air on their websites – false rape accusations, ruinous divorce settlements and the like – are all without merit.

Although not a fundamental ethical principle, reading doesn't appear to be in your skillset either.

[Ohio Joe]

193. No, some of the others

Men’s Rights Movement Spreads False Claims about Women

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/myths-of-the-manosphere-lying-about-women

Misogyny: The Sites

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites

And all the rest:

http://www.splcenter.org/search/google/mra?query=mra&cx=011869570708919044592%3Agucfjjffq2e&cof=FORID%3A11&sitesearch=

But hey, you found one that says not all of them are hate groups... Good to see you finally admit you are an MRA though... And do the associated cherry picking that goes with it.

[arely staircase]

184. Most of the HoF women are big Obama supporters (or several high profile ones are)

Which is one of the reasons I hate to get crossways with them on some of these gender issues. I say that to say this: I wonder if that display of chivalry was meant to ingratiate himself after his recent and quite popular Obama bash fest. I skipped the walk through fire op because I knew it would be a bunch of self serving tripe.

[DonCoquixote]

177. and we only get there by

showing solidarity and realizing that the people who would make on group into second class people will make you the same. Different people standing TOGETHER on common ground is what works, and indeed, it is the only thing that ever has. But some will fight for their little bit of privilege because they think it gives them an edge or an ego boost, and those are the ones that will go down the hardest when the Patriarchs of the world start needing more fuel to be shoveled into their furnace for more profit.

[LittleBlue]

138. Results of your Jury Service

n Wed Feb 19, 2014, 01:55 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

That DU isn't safe enough for "the fairer sex".
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4528636

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Just how far is this MRA supporter going to be allowed to go? Is this really acceptable on DU?

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Wed Feb 19, 2014, 02:13 PM, and the Jury voted 2-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Get over yourself.
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: "MRA"? What does that mean?
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I don't see how this post goes over any line. I can only judge this post, not everything the poster has written.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: lumberjack_jeff, needs to reflect on his remarks as they are intended to offend, which seems to lack a thoughtful approach to our DUers.


Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The post is in poor taste, perhaps, but it doesn't rise to the level of an insult requiring removal.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[lumberjack_jeff]

139. I get mail.

I find it interesting when some people complain about alert trolling.

[bravenak]

4. I've never met this White Knight.

If you see this ' White Knight' you must tell him a fair maiden is seeking him out, and requests his presence post haste! I have many and more tasks for a warrior such as he.
He must not shirk his duties to defend and represent us ladies, as we are merely the weaker sex, made to cleave unto our husbands, or live under the benevolent guidance of our fathers.
Oh, but what wouldn't I give for this Knight of Glory, so strong, so brave, so true!
My bosom is bursting with Joy in the knowledge of the existence of this fearsome ' White Knight', I feel my maidenly cheeks aflame, pinked by desire.
Send me my Knight, my dearest White Knight! Let him save me, from loneliness.

[BainsBane]

85. He does exist, bravenak. Really.

Here he is!

[bravenak]

102. Be still my beating heart!! A Knight of yore!

I love chess players, they're so cerebral.

[Whisp]

120. I like Knights in White Satin

[bravenak]

140. That is a lovely song.

I like the Black Knight. He's fearsome.
http://m.

&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DmjEcj8KpuJw

[geek tragedy]

5. heh, the DU MRAs will love this post. anyone who sides with feminists against them is a

white knight.

The anti-feminists here are really clutching at straws.

[redqueen]

7. +1

[Tuesday Afternoon]

20. curled up, cornered, corralled.

[geek tragedy]

22. I dunno, the men's rights creeps seem to be multiplying.

it's as if they feel welcome here or something.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

24. wonder How They got That Idea ....

policies, procedures and protocol of DU3 .... maybe?

[geek tragedy]

32. adverse selection. unless you actively discourage them, they

will invade and take over.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

38. Give 'em an Inch and they'll take a Mile. Yep!

[tblue37]

146. Let the camel get his nose into the tent, and before you know it,

you have camel snot all over everything!

[DURHAM D]

26. So true.

Last night I actually goggled The Real Democratic Underground looking for a website for progressives. Nothin' came up but I will keep checking.

[JoeyT]

179. Not really multiplying,

as much as getting reinforcements. Having never been to any of them, I took a look when someone mentioned one of them was keeping tabs on her. The cave and other stalker websites are all firing up their troll accounts. You'll never guess which side they're on. Never.

[polly7]

6. I can't imagine anything as suffocating as relying on

anyone, of either gender, to handle a situation, conflict or anything else for me ... though I'm sure they would mean well.

[snooper2]

8. This should be a fitting video for this thread

Chivalry Fail

[NuclearDem]

10. Because no man in his right mind would be a feminist

other than wanting to get laid or view women as weaker than him.

[polly7]

16. That's not what was said at all.

Not even close.

[NuclearDem]

23. It's exactly what the whole stupid white knight meme is about.

Shame potential or actual male feminist allies away from the movement by making them think that everyone else will see them as damaging the movement, and convincing them they have no logical reason at all to support feminism. It's the right's "white guilt" bullshit repurposed for gender issues.

That term only appears on MRA blogs, and it's used because it's a lot more palatable than "gender traitor."

[boston bean]

29. perfectly stated. Thank you!!

[polly7]

30. Oh don't even talk to me about "gender traitor" being used here.

I've been called a 'rape apologist' (as a survivor myself and someone who's actually done things to help others who have also in RL), seen the coy little "some women enjoy being oppressed - cause they just don't know what we do!!!!" digs here day after day and watched as women here have been bullied, lied about and called other sickening fucking names because they've dared express differing opinions.

Being concerned over the fact that men (most probably with the best intentions) may in fact, be harming women who see the need to rely on them, isn't MRA anything, it's just plain old common sense and hopefully, something every young woman learns on her road to independence.

[geek tragedy]

37. where have you observed feminists "who see the need to rely" on men? nt

[polly7]

39. Where have you observed I said that 'feminists' need to rely on men? nt.

[geek tragedy]

41. okay where have you observed this alleged phenemenon of white knights? nt

[polly7]

44. 'White knights' ....

I don't actually assign them a gender - people who feel they should 'manage' or 'handle' any part of my life I should be fully capable of controlling myself. Sorry, not playing your 'MRA' game.

Don't twist what I've said, k?

[The Straight Story]

89. i would say white knights are those folks trying to save others from things - like SI covers

Because they believe the rest of us are weaker/dumber/etc and so, without even asking, they step in to 'help us'.

They are just holding open the door of knowledge....

[nomorenomore08]

150. Which is why I tend to stay out of those kinds of discussions. Or have recently anyhow.

Not really interested in joining in a pile-on or echo chamber of any kind. People can speak their piece without my help.

[NuclearDem]

46. So then what do you suggest male feminist allies do?

Where do you suggest we go, or what do you suggest we say? A lot of allies (myself included) see feminism as one of the most effective movements for taking down gender stereotypes, something which benefits men as well.

And we've made it abundantly clear that we have no intent on hijacking the movement or demanding a seat at the leadership table. We know it's a women's movement, and all we care about is showing the same solidarity we would with the LGBT, AA, Hispanic, Muslim, poor, and labor movements and learning how to be better advocates for equality in our circles and communities.

[polly7]

49. Sorry, I stopped calling myself a feminist a long time ago after seeing all the

bullying, uglier than ugly tactics here to shut up other women, so I really have no concern with what you do as a male feminist ally. I think you should do as you please. Just don't pretend you're an ally to ALL women .... because I've never seen you 'come to the aid' of any of us who've been treated like shit here by 'feminists'.

[NuclearDem]

60. Wait, I'm terribly confused.

So if I actively support the feminist movement as a man, I'm making it hard for women to learn to rely on themselves and not on men, but if I don't jump in to defend a woman, I'm not an ally?

[polly7]

74. I've never said a word about 'supporting the feminist movement as a man',

except that you should do as you please, as I've really got no interest in it anymore. I believe all humans should treat each other equally and with respect, and that divisiveness, shaming, ugly name-calling day after day does nothing for anyone ..... of course though, feminists here probably don't represent real feminism at all, but that's beside the point as I really couldn't care less.

How can you claim to be a feminist ally though watching certain women be treated like crap and supporting those that do it? Does feminism just naturally exclude the rights of some women in your eyes?

[Old and In the Way]

178. That's what this all boils down to...

"Does feminism just naturally exclude the rights of some women in your eyes? "

Who gets to define the term feminism? Seems like HofF owns the franchise here on DU...all other women don't get to use the label, unless approved by the HoF membership. From my perspective, I'd say a majority of DU women don't meet the HoF standard of feminism. Which isn't a bad thing, IMHO.

[boston bean]

51. This is how they get men to not vocally support feminist issues.

Believe it or not, there are a hell of a lot of female MRA's.

[polly7]

53. Looking in a mirror are you boston bean? nt.

[boston bean]

54. No, I'm typing on a progressive democratic discussion board.

You?

[polly7]

56. No, you're stating there are women 'MRA' supporters here.

Either name them, or STFU, sick of your winky, winky crap.

[boston bean]

61. me,winky winky crap...never...

Are there female MRA's, my, there are.

factual statement. What you read into it is of your own making.

[polly7]

67. Always.

Name them.

It's not like you haven't got experience naming and trying to shame other women here. Go for it.

[boston bean]

68. I don't have to name them..

They stick out like a sore thumb.

Even still, I wasn't talking exclusively about DU.

[polly7]

78. Do they?

I haven't seen one. Maybe you should help me out here.

[Sheldon Cooper]

83. LOL

[polly7]

86. Wow, I didn't know you were an MRA supporter. Fuck. That's surprising. nt.

[Sheldon Cooper]

92. Yes polly, you finally exposed me.

Sheldon Cooper - MRA devotee. How come I don't see you at the meetings anymore?

[polly7]

98. Well glad to meet ya Sheldon Cooper, MRA devotee.

Sorry, I don't belong to any group whose purpose is to demean and hurt others, male or female.

What are you ....... president, secretary, treasurer?

[boston bean]

95. here is one:

[polly7]

99. There are crazy people all over the world.

You were whining about them 'here'. Why so shy?

[boston bean]

104. You think I'm shy?

Oh stop it!

[polly7]

109. No, just totally, completely dishonest and totally invested

in maligning and shaming people here without the courage to back it up.

[boston bean]

111. That would be your opinion and interpretation.

Which you are entitled to of course. Once you stop trying to order me around, maybe we can talk.

[polly7]

112. LMAO!

If you don't have the courage to back up your allegations, why would I care to talk to you? Ordering you around ........ awwies.

[boston bean]

114. What allegations? I said there were female MRA's in a post to someone other than you.

You took all offense. Not sure why, but you did. Your problem not mine.

[polly7]

119. I guess because I've seen you attack (brutally) other women for a long time here,

in one case, so much it actually made someone physically ill. You're a fucking expert at making these snide little accusations and then running away playing innocent. I take offense at dishonesty and shaming.

[boston bean]

124. OMG, do you not see in yourself what you accuse others of.

I'm done with this ridiculousness. Proceed if you must, but I'm not participating any longer.

[polly7]

128. Same old line every time you can't back up your mean, nasty accusations, boston bean.

[boston bean]

132. What mean and nasty accusations?

That female MRA's exist. That's not mean, it's a fact.

[polly7]

137. You implied they exist here. If that's a fact, you should have no problem naming and shaming.

It's not exactly like you have no practice at it or don't enjoy it.

[Harmony Blue]

181. GWW wants to return to the old paradigm of society

I personally don't want to return to that world. I am happy with having my freedom.

Feminism has been the greatest gift to both men and women finding personal freedom.

[opiate69]

142. Seriously... are you lot getting paid to post that acronym or something?

MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA
MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA
MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA MRA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


There.. that should be good for a couple bucks.

[hlthe2b]

180. The MRA has been cited as a hate group by Southern Poverty Law Center... yet, that has not prevented

some here from repeating their memes--perhaps "innocently", perhaps NOT.

I can not imagine you would in any way, wish to promote a group dedicated to blatant hate.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2012/05/15/intelligence-report-article-provokes-outrage-among-mens-rights-activists/
http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/a-war-on-women

[opiate69]

185. "THE" MRA? And, no, they didn't.

It should be mentioned that the SPLC did not label MRAs as members of a hate movement; nor did our article claim that the grievances they air on their websites – false rape accusations, ruinous divorce settlements and the like – are all without merit. But we did call out specific examples of misogyny and the threat, overt or implicit, of violence

And that is directly from the SPLC. . In fact, it's from the same damned link you posted. Maybe if you would read beyond the parts that reinforce your preconceived biases, you would have seen it. It doesn't seem to stop you lot from continually misrepresenting what they actually said, though, now does it?

[hlthe2b]

186. And doesn't stop you from parroting the message.

Uggh... At least DUers arre starting to wake up to this.

[opiate69]

187. Where, exactly, have I "parroted" anything?

All I've done is pointed out your parroting of previously debunked misinformation. In fact, that passage had been posted here at DU so many times, it is safe to say that anyone who makes the claim that "the SPLC has deemed MRA as hate group" can only reasonably be considered as intentionally propagating lies.

[hlthe2b]

188. Not worth the time... Those who follow you have seen the posts and the memes. n/t

[opiate69]

192. Ah, how typical..throw out an accusation, then when called on it,

Act like you're somehow just toooooo damned put upon to bother to back it up. You are right about one thing, though.. people around here are really starting to see through the shit.

[hlthe2b]

194. Nope.. You want a jury hide from those who call you on your history.I'm not going to give it to you.

All anyone need do is peruse your posts via a simple search to see what I mean.

[opiate69]

196. Your mind reading powers need recalibration...

[Orrex]

52. ^^That.

[lumberjack_jeff]

48. No man has permission to be a feminist.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125514945

[boston bean]

64. I invite all to read the thread. I hope they do!

Thanks for your repetitious posting, Jeff!

[lumberjack_jeff]

69. You're welcome.

I respect people that stand behind what they say.

When you say that men can't be feminists I don't want to be accused of putting words in your mouth.

[boston bean]

70. I hope they all click the link and read the thread. Thanks

[idendoit]

149. No man needs permission to be a feminist.

[Maedhros]

11. I believe in people helping each other.

It's a behavior that has served humanity well throughout our history.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. yep. around here some appear to like the bootstrap method.

just saying.

[quinnox]

12. That is an interesting angle, good post

I have to agree, these men who seem to see themselves as "noble defenders/protectors" to the militant feminists probably do more harm than good in the long run. I can understand the impulse to be a "knight", it probably is a nice ego massage, among other things, but your post makes sense re: the drawbacks.

[geek tragedy]

15. there are no such men like that at DU. So, not sure where you're getting this fairy tale

of men supposedly feeling obliged to protect the women that are decried as mean old bullies by the anti-feminist crowd.

[Maedhros]

28. WTF are you even talking about?

Agreeing with feminist viewpoints does harm? To whom? Men, i.e. the historical beneficiaries of lopsided gender dynamics? I think we can stand to take a few shots, given that we've dished out our share over the years.

[quinnox]

34. I'm agreeing with the OP, it doesn't sound like you even read it

because that is not what the OP means. At least, that wasn't my take on it.

[Maedhros]

66. "White Knight" is a term generally associated with MRA groups.

Perhaps the OP wasn't aware of this, so I won't hold that against him.

However, that raises the question: what, exactly, does the OP mean by "White Knights?" From the context of the post and the current gender kerfluffle on DU, it seems that the OP is taking aim at men who have voiced opinions in support of the feminist perspective.

This bit:

The reason why equality hasn't progressed with the genders is because we have a segment of the male population that believes that women are inferior but another segment that believes that women do no wrong, and must be put on a pedestal.

is essentially meaningless without some examples, because there is a huge excluded middle to be considered.

Perhaps you could expand on what you think the OP says, and why you agree?

[quinnox]

76. I can't speak for the OP. All I can do is post my reaction to it. About the term, "white knight",

that has a long term historical meaning all its own, and way beyond what "MRA" or whatever fringe groups have used it for.

I don't know anything about "MRA", except they seem to be brought up as some sort of boogey-man most of the time.

Just because some group most people have never heard of uses a term, does not mean that term is forever co-opted or needed to change the usual common and well understood meaning of the term.

[Maedhros]

80. OK. What about this?

The reason why equality hasn't progressed with the genders is because we have a segment of the male population that believes that women are inferior but another segment that believes that women do no wrong, and must be put on a pedestal.

This is essentially meaningless without some examples, because there is a huge excluded middle to be considered.

Perhaps you could expand on what you think the OP says, and why you agree?

[quinnox]

93. I have to go now, but my quick impression of what the OP meant by that is

men who treat women like they are queens without flaws, and meekly nod their heads in approval at whatever arguments these women make, are not helping the cause. And that makes sense to me. It is important to challenge all philosophies and arguments, vigorously, because that is how we learn and get to the heart of things. IMHO.

[Maedhros]

103. "men who treat women like they are queens without flaws, and meekly nod their heads in approval

at whatever arguments these women make" is pretty much a straw man.

I assume you are referring to discourse on DU. In order for me to take you seriously, you would need to find and present examples of:

1. Posters who "treat women as queens without flaws"
2. Show that they "meekly nod their heads in approval of whatever arguments these women make."

I just don't see these posters anywhere on DU.

I see some strong language on either side of the debate, but no meek acquiescence to feminist arguments.

If you disagree with a feminist argument, present your own rather than attack the messenger as a "White Knight."

[Harmony Blue]

165. Yeah I am pro science

and to dismiss evolution or our origins as a species has to be challenged. On this point I can say DU was united because what mattered more was the ideas more so than drawing imaginary lines in the sand.

Personally I do not see the value of the SI swimsuit cover photo being posted or Kate Upton. I am glad Skinner stepped in and locked that thread because it doesn't belong in the general forum. With that said the idea that women of DU need the DU of men to come to their aid sounds like chivalry.

Based on my observations, ideas like chivalry, courtship, and marriage are fleeting and archaic ideas that hurt equality long term.

[BainsBane]

117. What could be worse than a man with a political conscience?

and a commitment to social justice and equality? That must be rooted out at all costs. All that matters is the self, what a man can take for himself. Caring about society and the world around you is for suckers. Viva Ayn Rand!

[Harmony Blue]

162. Most feminists I know and professors in women studies

look down on males coming "to save the day"

Adults should be able to handle their own affairs as that is the defining trait of being an adult. Many of the posters in this thread are older and stuck with the traditional mindset that men must help out women (this is an outdated construct as well as marriage and courtship).

If a human being asks for my help... I help. But beyond that, I do not assume someone needs help because that would be invading their personal space and also their individual freedom. If I see an old lady struggling I will ask if she needs help but I do not assume she needs help because she is a female and old. One time I asked an old lady if she needed help and she said that she wants to do it on her own and takes great pride being able to walk at the age of 98. Who am I to say otherwise? I respect people's boundaries and treat them as equals.

I argue and counter argue ideas and to me having a man come to the aid of DU woman because sensibilities were hurt sounds something straight of Jane Austin's "Pride and Prejudice".

I didn't realize DU was stuck in the Regency Era but apparently so....

P.S. I don't understand why people compare Fifty Shades of Gray to Pride and Prejudice as they are completely different in every single fashion.

[seaglass]

14. Did you think that up all by yourself? n/t

[geek tragedy]

19. no, they get it from the big anti-woman hate site avoiceformen.org

http://www.bing.com/search?q=white+knights+a+voice+for+men&src=IE-SearchBox&FORM=IE8SRC&adlt=strict

that's where this talking point comes from.

men who support equality don't whine about 'white knights' who agree with feminists. it's misogynist creeps who talk like that.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

42. why is this crap even allowed on a Democratic, liberal, progessive website?

People have conflated the terms Liberal with Libertarian/Libertine.

[geek tragedy]

43. because DU is infested with misogynists and ergo this stuff never gets hidden.

many misogynist trolls have been banned for misogyny by earl or skinner without any posts being hidden

[Tuesday Afternoon]

45. OK. rest of this reply is self-censored due to Doors. n/t

[DURHAM D]

65. I don't think "many" is the operative word. nt

[1awake]

18. Disagree

Personally... I rather like women beneath me or above me!


Jokes aside... I don't view courtesy or protection of those you love as bad. But what Im talking about has nothing to do with anyone being lesser than the other either.

[cali]

27. codswallop. straight people shouldn't come to the aid of LGBT people

christians shouldn't come to the aid of muslims

etc

[seaglass]

40. + 1000

[nomorenomore08]

152. We should all help each other out where we can. We're mammals, not reptiles.

[HERVEPA]

31. Yup, everyone can always handle her/his situation by themselves. No need to help each other.

What a load of claptrap.

[Scootaloo]

33. Your input is noted

and duly dismissed.

Thank you for your participation!

[boston bean]

35. LOL

MRA shit posted right here in an OP. This white knight BS is exclusively MRA talking points.

[CFLDem]

130. Sorry Boston

But white knighting is a grave ill in modern society. Especially since white knights do so selfishly at worst, and ignorantly at best, thinking it'll help 'em get laid.

But it usually doesn't work since most women want men and not doormats.

[HangOnKids]

153. Word Salad Without Nutrition

You might want to try again.

[CFLDem]

156. Weak sauce

Not that I was expecting any better.

[HangOnKids]

157. It is hard I know

You just need to give it more of a fighting chance! I'm sure your parents are rooting for you!

[CFLDem]

159. And I'm sure

your many cats are rooting for you as well.

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[HangOnKids]

161. Wrong dear dont have any cats

But the smell of a litter box happened when you arrived on the scene.

[CFLDem]

163. Well I am drowning

in *****.

👯 👯

Lol more like 🐈🐆🐈 🐈🐆🐈

[HangOnKids]

164. PSST you aren't fooling anybody

But please keep going it is quite amusing.

[CFLDem]

166. Lol I am pretty amusing :)

Ok here's something equally amusing:

Q: How many men does it take to open a beer?

[HangOnKids]

167. 3 hides keep going

Thanks!

[CFLDem]

168. Hah

Almost had you there.

[HangOnKids]

169. Keep Going

I know you can't help yourself, big talker.

[CFLDem]

170. Stop it

you're making me sweat in my new Armani suit.

[HangOnKids]

171. WalMart doesn't sell Armani

[CFLDem]

172. Hey these Pimp suits

are high maintenance.

Besides Walmart is where I find most of my gal pals.

Yep it's tough out here for a p.i.m.p.

[HangOnKids]

173. You are beyond ridiculous now

Please don't quit your job. But keep posting it is dreck with flair.

[CFLDem]

174. I like you too

[Gormy Cuss]

50. After skimming all of the "white knight" threads here, do you also understand

that the phrase is an MRA dog whistle? Because that's the undercurrent of the use here.

Yes, men assuming women are incapable of handling their own situations is harmful, sexist twaddle. That's not the aspect of "white knight" syndrome under discussion here.

[boston bean]

57. Also, he's got it all wrong

many males are feminists or feminist allies. They are not doing anything that OP says. They are being supportive.

This type of framing is an attempt to shame men into not voicing support for feminist issues. Confuse, make them afraid. Make them think feminists will think they are trying to control.

It's a mind fuck, that's for sure.

[Gormy Cuss]

71. Yes, good point.

Men supportive of feminism should not be labelled as "white knights."

[lumberjack_jeff]

63. "Yes, men assuming women are incapable of handling their own situations is harmful, sexist twaddle."

I'm glad that we can agree on this much.

[Gormy Cuss]

73. Feminists think that way. n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. Presumptuous and frequently untrue. n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

100. Nope, true.

Feminists do think that way. I didn't write "all feminists" which is apparently the way you interpreted it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

108. Using that logical standard then it's accurate to say that feminists believe in the tooth fairy.

What? I didn't say "all feminists".

[Gormy Cuss]

129. Now you know what it feels like to read your "facts" on subjects like IPV.

[lumberjack_jeff]

133. Fail. n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

135. Win. n/t

[BainsBane]

79. He got it somewhere, didn't he?

[BainsBane]

59. So true

What we need most in the world is men who whine constantly about how oppressed they are and do everything they can to make sure women remain disempowered. Opposing the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is really for our own good. Women need to learn to stand up on our own two feet without the nanny state telling us we have the right to equal access to jobs. And prosecution for rape. Pshaw. Who needs a White Knight state to tell women their lives have any value whatsoever. The worst thing for a man to do is to stand up for social justice. The only way to help women is to make them understand they are completely and utterly worthless, and that they deserve no rights, no protection by the state, and that there are no men on this planet who want anything but to see them subjugated.


Some men speak out because they care about social justice. They know that what enables injustice and violence to occur is for good people to do nothing. To fail to act or to fail to speak out is to allow the subjugation of half of the human race. To shame men who stand up for what is right shows one's own hostility to inequality.

You've made your views clear on women multiple times. This in particular stands out:

it is no wonder males are opting out of participating in our society and going their own way as a whole. The risks have become too high for males to associate with females now, such that, it has reached a tragic level. . . .We are letting down our young males in our society by telling them any affection or empathy is wrong, and that makes my stomach churn.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4175836

Let's dissect this: It is unacceptable to tell boys "affection or empathy is wrong." Only the case you refer to was one of repeated non-consensual physical contact with a girl, against her expressed wishes. So it's wrong to tell boys they shouldn't touch a girl after she has said no. And it is also wrong for men to stand up in favor of equality. So what is it right for men and boys to do? Force themselves on girls and women after they say no? Shame men who stand up for equality and support laws passed decades ago prohibiting a hostile environment? Men who stand up for justice and equality should be shamed, whereas boys who touch girls against their will should be told they are "affectionate and empathetic." Got it.

And people claim we're on the same side. You're not in the same century with me.

[geek tragedy]

84. heh, the excerpted part is boilerplate crap from the MGTOW movement.

Their discussion boards are quite lovely--every other word is the c-bomb.

[Sheldon Cooper]

88. The 'men going their own way' sounds like a great thing.

Unfortunately, I have yet to see any of them actually do it.

[geek tragedy]

94. their dating advice discussions are a hoot. nt

[BainsBane]

96. Hold on. If they are "going they own way"

why are they dating?

[geek tragedy]

105. they're trying to date. unsuccessfully, for unimaginable reasons nt

[BainsBane]

110. How unfortunate

It sounded so promising that men who have serious issues with women would simply go their own way.

[BainsBane]

90. Who says there is nothing to be greateful for anymore?

[DURHAM D]

97. Opposing the ERA amendment by the White Knights was also for the GOOD OF WOMEN.

While lobbying my state legislature for passage every man who voted NO said it was their duty to protect women. This is why I flashed on the OP as mid last century drivel and the Madonna vs. Whore construct.

[BainsBane]

107. A lot of what's been posted around here lately

is mid-century drivel. I have been mulling around a theory that there exists a restorationist worldview among some on this site who would like to go back to the early 1960s. I posted that in the thread about whether DU was liberal and people descended on me: "Why do you hate the 1960s. It was the best ever. Everything since then has made society worse, etc..." Theory confirmed.

[berni_mccoy]

62. True equality doesn't presume a white knight is a man.

[El_Johns]

72. don't help anyone.

[Starry Messenger]

75. Too bad you guys aren't brave enough to say what you're really thinking.

If this were the 50's you'd be hauling out "n-word lover" for white allies of African Americans.

[Squinch]

82. Exactly!

[DURHAM D]

115. True this.

[BainsBane]

134. They make themeselves clear enough

I certainly have no doubt about what they think. Especially if you look at their posts over a period of time. A picture comes into focus.

[Whisp]

141. one white knight threatened a woman here on DU with physical violence

it is recorded, but unpopular to bring it up. In fact you can get juried if you bring it up.

that is why I have just a wee bit o trouble with ones who proclaim themselves saviours to all women when they can't even save a woman from their own bad selves.

[Harmony Blue]

182. I don't want to return to that era

feminism has taken off the shackles for millions of women and men.

As a man I no longer am labeled a pedophile or wierdo because I am confirmed bachelor over the age of 30 like it was common in the 1950s.

[Lizzie Poppet]

77. Not all PEOPLE can "handle their own situations."

It depends, obviously, on both the person and the situation. The concept that (all) women need a protector from physical threat has produced some horrible sociological ramifications...but it also derived from some general truths about physics and biology. Generally speaking, smaller, physically weaker people are vulnerable to aggression from larger, stronger ones. Also generally speaking, women tend to be smaller and weaker than men...that's undeniable biological truth. Unless the smaller, weaker person has some method of neutralizing that advantage on their own (such as a weapon and the expertise to use it), they legitimately can't "handle their own situation." They need assistance...and that assistance is one reason social species like H. sapiens are so successful.

The solution isn't to repudiate the idea of people sometimes needing protection and assistance, it's to recognize that such situations are situational and that that need does not apply elsewhere (and should not be allowed an inappropriate influence on how society is structured).

[nomorenomore08]

151. You're totally right. Unfortunately, I don't know how many people can handle that kind of nuance.

I often wonder why people are so either/or in their thinking, and I have to admit I think it's partly due to mere simplemindedness.

[Harmony Blue]

175. I am not looking at it from an evolutionary point of view

but in the context of the present day it is difficult for some men to let go of the idea that they must treat women like they are on a pedestal.

Your argument that smaller is weaker and more vulnerable is true in some aspects yes, but in others no. Yes, women are vulnerable when pregnant so it made sense for men to protect pregnant women when our ancestors had to live in caves and avoid sabretooth tigers for example, that could snatch you by your skull within seconds killing you (two puncture wounds at the top of the cranium is often the way big cats kill and sabretooth is no exception we have evidence and death traps).

But we as mammals started off small and vulnerable but the dinosaurs were big and large and they ruled till the KT extinction event. Anything weighing over 50 KG though perished so being small at that point in geologic time was advantageous from an evolutionary point of view. As the dinosaurs perished we as mammals took over all their niches in the ecosystems. Also animals tend to be larger in colder climate while near the tropics they tend to be slimmer so you have to consider environment as well. Don't think of it as bigger/stronger = "better" think of it from the point of view of positive and negative aspects associated with such traits.

[Squinch]

81. This really isn't working for you... maybe you could get a hobby or something?..

[DonCoquixote]

116. Solidarity is NOT White Knighthood

One of the great enablers of evil is the idea that people should be silent as it goes on. When I speak out against things I see, I am NOT at all saying the women cannot fight, indeed, the fights of several inspired me to do so. However, bullies act in numbers, because they are weak, and until people learn to work in SOLIDARITY, as one, with a common interest, then the bad guys win.

And while I would never say that I understand women's issues the way a woman does, my mother raised me to be smart enough to know one thing: the people who try to dominate others will sooner or later try to dominate YOU. With rare exceptions, the same people who attack the feminists are very often the same people that accuse minorities of "whining." They are the same folk that whine about how they were robbed, because the world was supposed to revolve around them. Sorry boys, those of us on the left were warning you that the big boys you admired never intended for you to have a place at the table, so that makes all the times you sold out your integrity worthless. That truth is something men and women can see, but not the overgrown boys that pounce in the shadows hoping to attack people who say the truth.

[DonCoquixote]

123. and to point to a thread that says my point better than I do

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024528423#post45

[MadrasT]

143. Thank you. God some people are thick around here. n/t

[fizzgig]

122. yeah, my dad is a real misogynist

how dare he offer financial assistance while my husband was out of work! surely that offer was made because i'm just a helpless girl and not because i was trying to support two people on $1100 a month.

no one should ever help anyone else out, right? we should all just sink or swim on our own because offering to help just means you think the other person is incapable of handling it on their own. yeah, there are men and women who think some are incapable of handling situations because they are XXX, but not all offers of aid come from that place.

[Warren DeMontague]

145. Are you kidding?

I loved that movie!

[Hippo_Tron]

176. This is quite possibly the dumbest thing I've ever read on DU

And I've been here over 10 years. I award you no points and may god have mercy on your soul...

[Sheldon Cooper]

195. hahaha!

[pnwmom]

190. Are you saying that men who are feminists set back equality for the genders?

Is agreeing that the sexes should be equal tantamount to "aiding" women, or putting them on pedestals?

I have no idea what you mean by "white knight" because I've seen different definitions here.