So I have a day off tomorrow and it's going to be 75. Can I wear my swim suit?

[Cleita]

Last edited Thu Feb 20, 2014, 02:57 AM - Edit history (1)

Apparently according to DU, I will become a sex object. When I go into the ocean to swim my breasts will float up because the water will act sort of like anti-gravity. Oh I won't be paid a nice sum for modeling, nor will it help my career as an actress.

Can we stop this nonsense once and for all?

[elleng]

1. Yes, lets stop the nonsense.

Why post this?

[frazzled]

3. Ba da bing, ba da boom

The OP doesn't understand that she's free to do or wear whatever she wants.

What was objectionable to many women here was posting the swimsuit pictures HERE, in order for all the male posters to publicly oogle over the airbrushed tushies and make lacivious comments.

[Cleita]

6. Well, I'm sorry but those are out everywhere not just here.

It's not a big reveal.

[frazzled]

15. Still don't get it?

This is a progressive web site, and GD is not the lounge. If people want to buy the magazine and jerk off to it in private, that's fine. To post the images here, and invite oogling commentary, is a specific act of objectifying women in the public sphere. That's not fine.

It was not an innocent discussion: it was intended as a group jerk off.

[Cleita]

25. Okay. I guess I'll get in trouble for this. I used to study art

and the most important is the human nude. Now I find we do a different art in our day and age. Those photos aren't to be jerked off to. They are a collaboration of composition, color, lighting and yes enhancements, but they are art and the people who do them are artists. Unfortunately, our market driven society seems to be only able to fund this art as a sales tool. Sad, isn't it.

[Luminous Animal]

34. Boobs are easy. Hands are hard.

[Cleita]

82. Hands aren't that hard.

It's just an excuse.

[Luminous Animal]

89. Oh indeed! Every sketch instruction has a page or two on how to draw boobs.

And none on how to draw hands.

Wait. What?

[Cleita]

90. Well the porn section isn't where you should get your sketch

instructions. In my drawing class, we started with hands and feet. I don't know who was instructing you.

[hunter]

184. I have a funny story about that...

... we had to do "nude" but with hands and feet. No cheating.

I drew myself and modeled for that too.

My hands and feet are much tougher to draw these days than my "naughty bits."

Years later now I'm even more gnarly and scarred, so the difficulty of the assignment would be much greater.

[Cleita]

186. Maybe you should get some aspiring artist to do your

hands for an exercise. Gnarly old hands and feet are so much more interesting to do than smooth, young ones. I too am too arthritic anymore to draw well so I've taken up weaving. It'd difficult but easier to get the result you want than with traditional media.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

140. It's very easy to make boobs --

You just have to show them yours.

[CrispyQ]

167. I don't consider Photoshopped images art,

especially when the bodies are morphed into shapes & forms that real women don't have, unless they starve themselves & sometimes not even then. It's more than just the SI issue. It's the saturation of the objectivity & the unhealthy images that is the problem. As evidenced by the fact that a DUer thought it would be acceptable to present the cover in the manner they presented it, to ogle & drool.

And you're wrong about the cover being jerked off to.

[Cleita]

171. A lot of oil paintings aren't art either but a lot are.

And I never said the cover was being jerked off to. It was a member of the HOF group who called it a "wankfest". Please get your facts right before you make accusations.

[CrispyQ]

187. I did misread your post.

I thought you said the SI issue wasn't being jerked off to, but I think you were actually referring to great works of art? My bad.

However, the HOF member was right - the SI cover is a wankfest & that's the purpose of it. And that was the purpose the OP of the thread intended, as well.

Have a great day at the beach.

[Cleita]

175. A lot of it isn't art like a lot of paintings aren't art, but that's how you finally do create art

by making the effort. It was a HOF member who said it was being jerked off to.

[AgingAmerican]

42. "jerk off to it"

Who's being offensive now?

[Vashta Nerada]

48. Every time I see a woman in a bikini, I can't help but want to whip it out and jerk it.

I also found that comment really, really offensive and I hope it gets hidden.

[edbermac]

53. "Excuse me while I whip this out"

[Fantastic Anarchist]

199. It should stay so he can be embarrassed. n/t

[JI7]

7. yup, and that we should be free to wear bikinis or anything else without certain creepers

giving unwanted attention.

[AgingAmerican]

43. Good luck going out in public in a bikini

...and nobody noticing. Seriously, good luck with that.

[Cleita]

47. Well, in a beach town, they don't.

If you are elsewhere I'm sure they will look. But I look twice at people who are fully clothed at the beach when it's warm. Suspicious!

[AgingAmerican]

51. Indeed

Those might be the dreaded oglers® we've heard so much about of late!

[Squinch]

152. The equivalent to the threads in question would be if you take off the top of that bikini and

walk into your local Democratic political organization office.

Oh, and present your ass as you enter.

Let us know how that goes.

[Mojorabbit]

206. Perfect response. nt

[JI7]

49. people can look and notice without being a creeper giving unwanted attention

[msongs]

95. yes it would be nice if women didnt ogle men who are wearing skimpy swim attire :-) nt

[Vashta Nerada]

38. Link to a comment where men were "publicly oogle(ing) over the airbrushed tushies and make(ing)

lacivious comments".

I can wait.

[AgingAmerican]

45. lol

nt

[Warren DeMontague]

77. Are you kidding? Some people were calling those SI models all kinds of VERY nasty names.

Oh, wait, except those were the people who were angry about the bikinis.

[Vashta Nerada]

86. Exactly.

No man was saying anything derogatory or demeaning about the women in the SI magazine.

But what do I know. All the men do is participate in "wank fests" around here.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

200. I just can't help myself.

I have no self-control. Presented with bikini pictures, I'm doomed to masturbate, apparently.

[CreekDog]

208. i find it ironic that you complained more about the alert of an offensive post than the post itself.

as for claiming ignorance of what's been happening on DU, you were all over those related threads. the idea that you don't know...not credible.

[Vashta Nerada]

209. You haven't been looking hard enough.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024534235#post25

[Scruffy Rumbler]

180. Not this male poster..... thanks nt

[dipsydoodle]

141. Happy Birthday tomorrow.

Or this today ? I'm on GMT.

[elleng]

165. Thanks, dipsy!

Was a few weeks ago, but I appreciate the sentiment!

[rufus dog]

2. Wait, WUT?

What is going to be 75%?

[Cleita]

4. 75 degrees. There seems to be no key for degrees. % is as close as it gets. n/t

[edbermac]

8. Go to eHow, lots of good stuff

http://www.ehow.com/how_6155247_make-degree-symbol-computer.html

edit: On my MAC it's SHIFT OPTION 8 = 75°

[Cleita]

14. Thanks.

I learned something useful today. I used to come to DU to learn but it's getting harder these days. so thanks. I have a mac by option do you mean that option is typed?

[Art_from_Ark]

21. On Macs, there is a key that is called "Option"

Also called the "alt" key. Press the Shift key, the Option key, and the 8 key at the same time to get the symbol for degrees.°

[Cleita]

26. Okay. thanks.

[edbermac]

27. Hit the SHIFT key, the ALT/OPTION key and */8 key simultaneously

And you get this °

[hobbit709]

147. Alt 0176 will do it °

[Jim Lane]

182. That didn't work for me until I went to the link and saw you had to have NUM LOCK on.

A bonus that eHow missed, for the 17 people out there who, like me, still use WordPerfect: You get into the symbols menus with Ctrl+W (that is, hold down the Control key and type W). Then you type 6,36 in the Number field and select "Insert and close" (or just "Insert" if you want to add more symbols).

[hobbit709]

183. I almost always use the numeric pad.

[edbermac]

5. Yes and please post pictures.

Hubba hubba.

[Cleita]

10. I'm 74 and wear a bikini.

Enjoy.

I'll even post pictures of my 70+ friends. When you get to this age, you really don't care what others think.

[1000words]

12. Nothing wrong with a mature woman

Still a woman, and like many things of beauty, they get better with time.

[Cleita]

20. Well thank you. That's nice. n/t

[Fantastic Anarchist]

201. Quit hitting on her.

And to some, you may be considered to be "oogling" ... and you may even wank off, too!! Have you no decency!

[1000words]

211. Quit harshing my perv!

I'm going to post a link because apparently, the image is offensive. You have been warned:

http://www.celebuzz.com/photos/bikini-bodies-of-all-ages/helen-mirren/

[Fantastic Anarchist]

221. None of that is offensive.

And if it is, then I'd like to be offended more often.

[treestar]

18. ROFL

You don't even count! No man cares about you wearing a bikini!

Really? You are taking this line at age 74? Irrelevant! Men themselves don't want you to wear the bikini!

[Cleita]

19. I know. that's the point.

If you don't get it, I can't explain.

[treestar]

23. Why bother then?

Are you trying to frighten the young men?

[Cleita]

33. Oh, if only they were frightened.

[polly7]

44. Wow.

No need to be cruel, is there?

[treestar]

157. I could hardly do better than the men who see the 74 year old in the bikini

You'd subject yourself to some rude stares and comments. Plus, I couldn't wear one either (at 54), so I can talk.

[polly7]

158. I wear whatever the hell I want.

As should every 74, 54 or 34 y/o be able to without other women telling her such ugly, demeaning things.

That was just a bullshit, mean post .... but completely typical.

[treestar]

159. But how would you protest the men who would do that?

And they would - without sounding like a feminist?

[polly7]

160. YOU did that.

While sounding like a fucking asshole.

And, speaking of fucked up juries:

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Thu Feb 20, 2014, 01:47 AM, and voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: The OP kicked off the thread as a light-hearted spoof of some recent DU threads - I'm giving the poster the benefit of the doubt and assume she/he is responding in the same vein.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Insensitive. People can wear what they want and are beautiful.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Damn, that's rude...

Thank you.

How long do you think a dreaded man, or one of the women you all hate so much here would last posting sexist, ageist, sickening garbage like you did?

[treestar]

162. poor deflection

how would you call out a man who insulted a less than perfect woman in a bikini or anything other revealing? You think there are no men who would do that? You went to a lot of trouble just to avoid that question.

You pretended to take my post literally. I explained I am not an attractive woman. The point was about the men who would make the ageists comments. Why can't you deal with that issue?

[polly7]

163. A man didn't insult her for what she would be seen as in a bikini.

YOU did. There were no men involved.

Reminds me of being accused of being one of the 'naughty-word police' after objecting to the use of the word *toilet here to describe women ...... because that's just what 'men' think.

I didn't pretend to take your post literally - I did, and it made my stomach churn to see that kind of cruelty towards another woman. Pathetic, and nice try at your attempt to deflect it onto some invisible man.

[Luminous Animal]

54. 74, eh? It's is all starting to make sense.

[pintobean]

189. But, will your body type meet the approval

of our would-be censors?

[Cleita]

191. Probably not mine although I do diet and work out.

However, I have an 83 year old friend whose been athletic her whole life. She still goes skiing and swims every day in a bikini and frankly she looks terrific, better than a lot of women half her age. I'm sure she would be accused by some of causing those awful men to jerk off.

[1000words]

9. Oh ... just go to The Olive Garden and breast feed your pit bull

And I mean that in the most gender-neutral way.

[Cleita]

11. Too old and shriveled to breast feed.

Poor pitty is just gonna have to chew on the ankle of some pervert who tries to manhandle me.

[stevenleser]

215. She would have to be eating chicken while she did that!

[kcr]

13. Yep, all those posts saying no one can wear swimsuits.

Oh, wait. No one was saying that. Never mind.

[Cleita]

17. Oh but they did because the models shouldn't wear swimsuits because

all kinda of horrible things will result. Really, those women aren't allowed to wear swimsuits to do their job which is to pose professionally in fashion.

[VanillaRhapsody]

29. Nope they didn't....you missed the point entirely....

it wasn't about the models...it was about the posting of it ON DU specifically so that the Wankfest could be shared...

[Cleita]

35. Really? You have proof that there was a wankfest

going on? Skype maybe? NSA spyware? What's wrong with wanking anyway?

[VanillaRhapsody]

36. Were you reading it? There seems to be some more females on this thread that thought so besides me..

are we all wrong?

[Cleita]

37. I can imagine.

There is nothing wrong with wanking. Those girls know they will be appreciated and they involved themselves willingly.

[VanillaRhapsody]

39. NOBODY is talking about THOSE girls....

no one cares that they model for a living!

You missed the point entirely....

[Cleita]

40. Okay. I missed the point. I have to move on. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

41. Please do.....

you are out of your element.....

[Orrex]

193. Ah, yes. Another woman being attacked for failing to fall in line

Nicely done.

[redqueen]

202. Sorry, did someone tell her to "fuck off"? No? She did say that to another woman here.

The jury didn't hide it, so it's real easy to find.

She isn't being attacked, she's being criticized for mocking feminist issues. She has the gall to admit feminist work isn't done, then turns around and mocks and insults the women who are still fighting to change things for the better.

And meanwhile she's also attacking feminists whose battles she mocks and minimizes.

Still straining at gnats...

[Vashta Nerada]

55. Yes, because men can't help but participate in "wankfests" online.

Point out one post where a man was participating in a "wankfest" in the original thread.

I can wait.

You're just as offensive as the other poster above.

FYI, the original SI swimsuit thread WAS STARTED BY A WOMAN!

[VanillaRhapsody]

56. Well we witnessed it didn't we? Or are we not believing our lying eyes...

[Vashta Nerada]

57. Link to a "wankfest".

I can wait.

[VanillaRhapsody]

66. Right I have to prove anyone was actually jerking-off right?

this stuff never gets old!

"objectification" and what it does to the psyche of women.....

[Vashta Nerada]

85. You made the assertion a big "wank fest" was going on.

The burden of proof is on you.

Point me to a post where a bunch of men from DU were oogling the women and talking about how they were going to participate in a "wank fest" together over the photos.

I can wait.

[Warren DeMontague]

122. Here is actual footage, timestamped 15 seconds after the SI thread was posted!!!!!

[Vashta Nerada]

164. Heh. I don't expect a reply from VR.

She knows here assertions are false.

[mythology]

212. If you're going to accuse men of being awful for participating in a "wankfest"

then yes you should have to prove it. Otherwise, you're really just making things up. Which does sort of make it hard to believe you. Perhaps you've heard the one about the boy who cried wolf.

[LanternWaste]

185. So the "urges" are or are not controllable?

"because men can't help but participate in "wankfests" online...."

So the "urges" often used to rationalize vulgar behavior are or are not controllable?

[Vashta Nerada]

203. Not according to VanillaRhapsody.

All men do is whip it out and participate in wankfests when images of nude or bikini-clad women come up on our computer monitors.

[kcr]

31. I find if you hand wash them

They last longer. Rinse them out immediately, especially if you've been swimming in a pool. So far, no horrible swim suit problems for me.

[Scootaloo]

65. Nobody said anything of the sort n/t

[cui bono]

73. No one said that at all. Not even close.

It's not about the models. It's about posting it and ogling over them in a public place and creating a hostile environment for women.
You at least realize that women are discriminated against and objectified, right?

[treestar]

16. Straw man or straw swimsuit?

Really? 75% what?

No, if you'd like to be an object, fine, yet I wonder if you really will be. Do tell us if you get any wolf whistles or cat calls and tell us how they validate your existence.

[R B Garr]

22. You're going to swim in the ocean? But there are.....

those s-word things out there! In the water. I don't think I could ever swim in the ocean again.

[Cleita]

32. Yeah, they are there but we get warnings.

I don't got that far out these days, anyway.

[Fumesucker]

70. Submarines are scary, I don't blame you

[R B Garr]

91. lol, actually I've seen a couple youtube type videos of surfers with underwater cameras

and those things are lurking pretty close. In one video, the shark was really close and checking him out back and forth for awhile. They are out there! Stuff of nightmares. I used to love ocean swimming.

[cherokeeprogressive]

24. Wear whatever you like, Doll.

If you like it, I like it.

[Cleita]

30. Thank you. I do.

If in a year, I live to 75, I'm getting a tattoo that says I lived that long.

[Bobbie Jo]

28. Huh?

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Luminous Animal]

46. Nope. According to your warped interpretation to objectification, you will be a sex object.

As a bonus, I will give you this... ° or this ˚.

I know, I know. Key commands are so h-a-a-a-rd.

[Cleita]

81. I'm a sex object. How awful. All the girls at the senior center are

going to be so jealous.

[Luminous Animal]

87. By your warped interpretation of objectification.

FYI, a google search of "old ladies bikinis" reveals the vast majority of people do not want to see you in one.

THAT IS OBJECTIFICATION!!!!! That you, yourself, are comfortable in eschewing societal objectification does not mean it doesn't exist and the pressures to conform are not real.

To be relevant, perhaps you should check out the twitter hash tag #everydaysexism or @everydaysexism to understand what your younger sisters think about this issue.

[Cleita]

88. FYI most people would rather not see an old person whether in a bikini or in

a snow suit. We are old and in the way. So fuck you. I will wear or not wear what I want until you or someone like you decides to stick a pillow over my face to shut me up.

[Luminous Animal]

97. What a weird life you must lead. In my sphere; family, friends, neighbors...

old people (and very young people) are just people to hang out with and have fun. We all see each other no matter the age,

[Cleita]

98. Good. I was getting worried about any old people who are

dependent on you.

[In_The_Wind]

123. AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service ... 4:44 AM

4:44 AM
Automated Message

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

On Thu Feb 20, 2014, 09:00 AM an alert was sent on the following post:

FYI most people would rather not see an old person whether in a bikini or in
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4532674

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

" So fuck you"

Yep, over the line.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu Feb 20, 2014, 09:44 AM, and the Jury voted 3-3 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: "you or someone like you decides to stick a pillow over my face to shut me up" goes too far as well. Suggesting another DUer wants them dead is unacceptable. The 2 may be having an argument, but there should be limits.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Bah! I like cleita and i am an old fart! Wear you want girl, this old man not gainsay ya! perhaps tone the F to a S tho....
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[seaglass]

148. Prime example of jury fail. The difference between "who the fuck are you" and "fuck you" is whether

a juror likes you or not.

Thanks for posting the results ITW. I hope all the jurors who voted to leave it are ashamed.

[In_The_Wind]

150. Your statement is true "whether a juror likes you or not."

Is should be about right and wrong but sometimes it isn't.

[KitSileya]

103. Everyday sexism

Katy 2013-11-10 23:50
I work in a tearoom. The other day an old man and his wife came in. As the wife was on the other side of the room, looking at the cake trolley, the husband asked me "what have you got to offer me today then?" In the moment I took to pause and think about the menu, he answered his own question with "sex?" I always thought I'd respond aggressively in a situation like that, but I was too flustered and embarrassed for the wife, so said nothing.


#55031. 2013-11-10 22:23
Me, a 19 year old girl and my female friend were walking down the street in the evening, in the dark.. A group of 30-40 year old men shouted "shall we make two girls feel really uncomfortable?" and proceeded to shout rape at the top of their voices repeatedly and howling with laughter. This not only is extremely sexist and shows the pleasure men get from feeling like they are in control.. But it also shows the disregard they have for such a serious horrible act that millions of people have suffered from. Absolutely disgraceful..


#55030J 2013-11-10 20:24
Walking home from the train station along dead quiet streets and a man going past says 'hello, good morning' (this was at 7pm!) and then goes 'you are so sexy', despite me being all wrapped up in a jumper, jeans, and coat. After walking away thinking nothing of it, I realised he was now following me. Panicked and almost ran into a restaurant to feel safe. Could not have felt better the minute I arrived home.


#55029aily 2013-11-10 19:17
i was walking home from college and had a pencil thrown at me accompanied by the term of endearment "slut" from a passing car full of teenage boys.


#55028Marissa 2013-11-10 18:22
A guy volunteered to walk me home after a party. As we walked, he kept using the word "faggot" which grossed me out. And then when we finally got to my house, he wanted to hug me goodbye, during which he grabbed my ass with both hands and pulled me toward him. I felt so violated.


#55027elle 2013-11-10 14:23
When I was about 13/14 I was volunteering in a charity shop, working at the till, and an elderly man approached me with a pair of binoculars and said "these would be great for standing outside you room at night". I was horrified but my co-worker (also an older man), instead of sticking up for me, laughed. I felt so embarrassed and I went to hide in the back of the shop, but because my co-worker hadn't stood up for me I thought it was my fault for not being able to take a joke


#55026P 2013-11-10 13:58
Last night I was waiting in line to order a drink at a bar (it was probably only around 10.00pm so it was quite early) there was a guy stood next to me. He kept bumping into me on purpose and I said nothing- at the time I didn't think too much about it. But, then he started using the back of one of his hands to rub against one of my breasts. I could see him winking. Again I said nothing. I was so angry instead of making it clear that, that kind of behaviour is completely inappropriate I pathetically ordered a double vodka and coke and then ran back to my friend. I think what was worse was seeing his friends smirking and eyeing me up and down as I was walking away with my drink. At that moment I felt uncomfortable and very unattractive. Next time an incident occurs like that again I hope I have the confidence to stand up for myself and say no. Unfortunately, too many of us don't react because we fear that no one will believe us or take the incident seriously.


#55025Sophia 2013-11-10 13:30
On the tube a man around 40 starts chatting up two 16 year old girls. One of them turns round and asks him "Are you too insecure to chat up women your own age?" Fantastic response.


#55024Edith 2013-11-10 12:03
I'm an older woman in her 50's. When I went to art college back in the 80's. I was laughed at and put down because I didn't know how to use a hammer properly. In one tutorial my art was described as decorative and therefore dismissed. I was told by one tutor, with whom I was sharing a taxi with that he'd 'fuck' me if I did not have a skin disease. As Germane Greer says...Women just don't realise how much men hate them. At this age you have the experience of realising that is often the case. So my advice is to always visualise men in short trousers to guard your good self and to remember they do not experience the world as you do. So often they are clueless and desensitised.


#55023SK 2013-11-10 10:46
While working as a kitchen hand, I had the sexist male waiter hitting on me and telling me his dick inside me would make me more relaxed. When I retaliated he would have to find it first, he threatened to remove my nipples with a pair of pliers and then made the motion in the direction of my chest. The head chef threw him out for making me angry and disrupting the kitchen.


#55022R.H. 2013-11-10 10:25
I went to a meeting because I was concerned about workplace bullying and in an attempt to make me feel better the manager gave an example where one of her collages makes fairly derogatory comments about women on a regular basis but she just 'laughs it off because that's the way he is'. The shocking part is people thought I was overreacting by being offended by this.


#55021Melanie 2013-11-10 10:15
a father jeered on his 8 year old son to call me 'sexy' on public transport. I was shocked and said that i didn't think it was appropriate. He thought it was funny and told me to lighten up. 'what was I going to do when his son was older and had more things to say'

Anyone who thinks that we object to the wearing of swimsuits and not to how those women in swimsuits are treated, really have a problem with their reading comprehension.

[Cleita]

105. I grew up along the beach and wearing swimsuits were a lot of my life.

We never put up with bad treatment from "objectifiers" and most of those turkeys were pretty much ostracized from the social scene not to mention the scene. It depends on your lifestyle and my younger days were pretty much spent at the beach when I wasn't at school or working. So I was in a swim suit a lot as were my friends and classmates. You are only a sex object when you allow it to happen to you.

Honestly! Grow up.

[KitSileya]

110. "You are only a sex object when you allow it to happen to you"

So women who encounter this kind of behavior should blame themselves if it bothers them, is that what you are saying? When your boss makes jokes about 'hitting dat ass' and your colleagues laugh along with him, when guys tell you they want to start groping you at the bus stop and follows you home, when guys touch your boobs at a bar without your permission - all of that is is only harmful to you if you let it, and if you are more "grown up", you'd be perfectly fine with it, or at least able to fight it.

That's a load of victim-blaming tripe, Cleita.

[Cleita]

112. Only if you see it that way.

I have never been victimized like you seem to think all women who put on a swim suit or make-up or a short skirt are. I think you people are sick. Sure there are the usual jerks who are out of line. Usually, someone brings them into line, quickly. I don't know what awful misogynist world you live in unless it's in some religious compound somewhere. Magazines are just that pictures and stories on paper. Really, what sick world do you live in?

[KitSileya]

114. I live in reality, where the things I described has happened to me.

I didn't include the rape at 10, the flashing at 12, the comments at all ages. Women on DU have posted on it many times, describing how street harassment started as soon as they neared puberty, how many of us have been raped, molested, harassed. The sick world I live in is reality, where women are conditioned through harassment, a world I am trying to change. When you say that what is wrong isn't how I and other women were and are treated, but how we react to it - well, that tells me everything I need to know about you.

Would you say the same to others who are treated badly? Children who are bullied, minorities who are discriminated against, is the main problem how they react to their treatment rather than how they are treated? Should they grow up too?

[Cleita]

115. I'm sorry all that happened to you and you are justified in feeling

victimized. But much of this, here on DU, isn't about that. It's about a certain tribe trying to hurt everyone else who doesn't agree with them. You have my sympathy, but I don't think a stupid magazine causes all the ills of the world or a skimpy bathing dress. I was watching the pretty girls skating on the Olympics tonight in skimpy tight costumes. Do you think they are inspiring guys to wank off? Maybe some perverts are. That's a given, but should everyone be denied this appreciation of awesome skill and art because of some perverts?

About bullies and discrimination, oh yes I'm all for ending it, but will we really get rid of our jock culture to end it? I doubt it. People will still want to watch sports and they should be able to.

[KitSileya]

120. The magazine isn't the cause, it's the symptom, and a reinforcement.

Challenging the magazine, or rather the posting of it here, where it is inappropriate, is an opportunity to educate people on the effects of these pictures, on both men and women. SI has had 66 covers with female athletes, and 50 of models in bikinis in the last 50 years. You think that supports the idea that women are awesome athletes? When every other picture you see of women (and that is a serious under-estimation) are of them sub-dressed, showing cleavage or in sexy poses -in many cases all three - what does that do to our view of women? You don't think that has any effect on equality?

The example you bring up of figure skating I don't find very effective, simply because female figure skaters are agents, subjects, not things to be ogled. They go out on the ice and do stuff, and their costumes aren't skimpy as much as aerodynamic, even if they do simulate showing skin by using flesh-colored parts of their costume. No one can deny that these women are awesome athletes - but then they do much more than stick their butt out, look over their shoulders with a come-hither look, and stand stock still while everyone looks at them.

[KitSileya]

117. Just to illuminate those lucky enough to be ignorant...

http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/resources/statistics/
[link:|
[link:|

[JTFrog]

116. Because it's all about you isn't it?

It's all roses and sunshine in your world is it? Is misogyny just a made up word to you? Not that it really matters. We wouldn't want you to waste your beautiful mind thinking about the victims of a "sick world" you've never had to deal with.

[Cleita]

118. Boy, you have no idea what misogyny I put up with in my life.

I'm seventy four years old. I went through the forties, fifties, sixties, and seventies when the real women's rights fights went on. I'm on my own right now, an old woman with a cat and a computer, wondering how to make my Social Security stretch out. Nobody helps me or coddles me. A lot of the privileges women enjoy today is because my generation fought for them. It wasn't enough, I know, but we did our best, with no union representation, no organizations giving a shit and no help from the establishment. I fought off unwelcome attention when I couldn't complain to the boss about it. I would have been considered a whiner or worse, it would have been my fault for enticing the attention.

It never stopped me from wearing what I wanted, going where I wanted and standing up to jerks who insulted me anymore than I'm going to put up with it here from you and your ilk. Take your roses and sunshine and stick them up where no sun shines.

[JTFrog]

124. Don't tell me you "fought for them" just to tell them to shut the fuck up when they are taking

their turn to fight. You say "It wasn't enough, I know", yet here you are in the face of those who fought that same fight and those that are fighting the fight of their generation.

"It never stopped me"

Well lucky you. Wish I could say the same. Me and my ilk. Yea, us women who have been beaten, raped and left for dead really ought to just give up and just leave it at "It wasn't enough". Like I said, don't waste your precious mind on me and my ilk and the "sick world" we have barely survived. Just keep telling us how it's all about you.

[redqueen]

207. [phone]

[notadmblnd]

204. .....

[gollygee]

119. OK so here you admit it happens

"The usual jerks who get out of line."

Yes, they're always there. The usual jerks.

And, "Usually, someone brings them into line, quickly."

Usually, but not always. And if someone has to bring them into line, then you know that they do get out of line.

[JTFrog]

125. And what is really telling is that she is getting away

with telling others "fuck you" and "shove it where no sun shines".

But hey, the jury system and community standards make DU the #1 progressive site on the net these days.


NOT.

[Cleita]

126. So should we all wear burkas so they don't get out of line? News flash, they get out of line anyway

because the ones who are pigs will be pigs no matter what, so you need to shove them back in their place. I was a bartender for ten years and I was accosted with a lot of misogynist bull shit and I made them behave or leave. Most bullies are cowards and once you face them they really do back off. I also had back-up but isn't this what it's about?

I still really see nothing wrong with the SI cover. It was more suggestion than actual flesh. I don't think most guys get into a mood looking at it or Playboy. Here at DU most of them will tell you that.

[gollygee]

128. Of course we shouldn't wear burkas

and the problem with the SI cover is that GD isn't the place for it. The Kate Upton thing was intentionally put up to provoke people. Sometimes people post this stuff intentionally as misogynist bullshit. And some of the women here are telling them to behave, and they're getting backup.

But of course guys "get into a mood" looking at it, and Playboy. That's the point of it. But I don't care if guys get aroused. People keep saying that we're complaining about sexuality and that isn't the case. The issue is that people keep posting stuff intentionally to create a hostile atmosphere. I'm not sure the SI cover was posted for that reason, though I do think it's a Lounge post and not a GD post, but the Kate Upton thing absolutely was posted intentionally to make GD hostile. And that is some of that misogynist bullshit you're talking about.

[Cleita]

129. I don't know what you are complaining about then.

If I were behind the bar, I would tell any guy who was getting out of line with a woman to cut it out or leave. But this is cyberspace and a message board. If you feel they are posting things to create a hostile atmosphere then confront them about it instead of whining. The only Kate Upton post I saw was the one Will Pitt posted and I didn't consider it hostile but I didn't follow it. Boring. But what do I know.

[KitSileya]

133. And telling them that we felt it was inappropriate isn't confronting them?

It seems you automatically equate women stating their opinions on feminist matters such as the SI cover as whining. In that case, we can't win for losing, can we.

[eShirl]

143. OK, what, in your mind, constitutes confronting them as opposed to whining?

[Cleita]

170. Point out what they are doing isn't right and then expect to get a bunch of

snarky posts like I'm getting here. Then use your ignore button and move on. IGNORE is your friend if you are offended.

[KitSileya]

130. I see that we still cannot get across our meaning.

The SI cover isn't wrong in and of itself, what is wrong is that women are pretty much always portrayed in that way. That affects our girls and boys, in the wrong way. These kinds of pictures are overwhelmingly what girls see portrayed in media - women dressed skimpily/inappropriately/provocatively, or only female body parts, even. We want covers with female athletes, politicians, scientists, teachers, actresses. Did you see the Esquire covers of Bill Clinton and Halle Berry?

[IMG][/IMG]

Why is Halle Berry half-naked, without a pair of pants and a shirt? Do you deny that this is typical?

And it was the wrong place to post it - this is a place where men and women gather to discuss politics. If you wouldn't get out the issue in the middle of a co-ed gathering in your own home, at work, or at a Democratic party meeting, and start commenting on the 'beauty' of the models, why would you do it on a Democratic message board? Especially after many women who post here said that it made them feel uncomfortable?

[Cleita]

135. That's because your meaning has no meaning other than being mean.

I have always know that DU is a tough venue. It doesn't matter where you are going here, it a tough slog. So I feel uncomfortable a lot, but I don't expect people to change because of me. Also, since you guys have your own forums to feel comfortable in why do you want to come somewhere to be uncomfortable? I don't understand.

[KitSileya]

138. Wow. NT

[gollygee]

139. GD isn't a boys' club

It isn't that HOF is an area for women to feel comfortable, and GD is for men to feel comfortable, and if it's a "tough venue" and a "tough slog" just go where you're comfortable. That is the very definition of a hostile environment. GD should not be a hostile environment.

[eShirl]

144. "GD should not be a hostile environment."

This.

[JTFrog]

146. She won't be happy til we're all back of the bus and shit.

I swear this is some weird bizzaro version of DU I've logged into.

[Cleita]

168. I don't find it hostile, but if you do then maybe you shouldn't be here.

I find it tough because you are expected to have your facts right not because all those mean guys are picking on me.

[gollygee]

176. Creating an environment where women are expected to deal or leave

Is creating a hostile environment, once again.

[Cleita]

177. You are just a perpetual victim, aren't you?

Look in the mirror. You are creating the hostile environment for yourself. To accuse other DUers of picking on you when they disagree with you is unfair to them and you.

[gollygee]

178. I have thankfully never been a victim

But lots of women - and men - here at DU have been. It's nothing to be flippant about.

And there were well over a hundred people agreeing that these posts create a hostile environment. It isn't just me.

[Cleita]

179. In real life silly, not on a message board.

For one thing, I know that if you were being verbally sexually harassed, for real, the offending poster would find themselves kicked off this website. I have seen it happen in the past. Anything else is in your head and I think a psychologist would agree.

[gollygee]

181. The concept of "hostile environment" is well established

And not in my imagination, and psychologists are well aware of it.

[redqueen]

188. And: "I'm a sex object. How awful. All the girls at the senior center are going to be so jealous"

The popularity of this kind of stupid bullshit is why we are still fighting these battles.

[JTFrog]

194. Yep. n/t

[Squinch]

198. "You are only a sex object when you allow it to happen to you" is possibly the most ignorant

statement I have ever seen on DU. And that's saying something.

[Aerows]

213. If it isn't the most ignorant

it's pretty damn close. It is like saying "it's only homophobia if you allow it to happen to you", or "it's only racism if you allow it to happen to you". Maybe a kid that gets the shit beaten out of them is only being bullied because they allowed it to happen? Jesus.

I didn't weigh in on the other threads because I don't like to get into these types of arguments on DU, but that particular comment stood out in stark relief as an example of how detached some folks can be from the reality that exists for other people.

[Luminous Animal]

108. Yep.

[MannyGoldstein]

50. You OBVIOUSLY don't understand the difference between

objectification and obfuscation.

And you mock bathing suits!

[Cleita]

52. Yes, I'd rather not wear one at all, but the lifeguards have issues about that. n/t

[TDale313]

58. ...

[Autumn]

59. Hell yes you can. I will be upset but go on and do it anyway.

Just ignore the fact that I'm sitting here by the fire while the wind and snow is blowing like a ...... . I will just pout and whimper all day.

[Cleita]

60. Actually wish we could trade.

I would send you sun in exchange for the snow/water we so need here in California.

[Autumn]

61. This drought has been horrible and I am very grateful for

the moisture we have been getting. I wish I could share it with you.

[SheilaT]

62. WHAT is going to be 75%??

Your question makes no sense at all.

[Cleita]

63. 75 degrees. Sorry, I will change it to degrees when I'm at a computer that has the

keys I need. The percentage thing was close to but not.

[SheilaT]

64. The little high circle that is the degree sign

is not the same as the percentage sign.

If the symbol isn't available, why not write out the words?

added on edit:

Why would the temperature outside matter? If you want to wear a bathing suit, wear one.

[Cleita]

67. I just edited out the sign. People can guess what the number means. n/t

[cui bono]

68. Oh FFS.

What a stupid OP.

You are completely unaware of the issue, obviously. And this is exactly why women speaking out about the objectification and oppression can not and will not stop.

Would you post something this snide about racism or homophobia?

How backward DU is these days. Astounding.

And guess what? I think you've inspired me to write an OP about it since it's so obviously needed.

[Cleita]

69. Actually, I'm pretty aware of stupidity, which is what this OP

is about. So glad you caught it.

[cui bono]

71. You are unaware, you've made that perfectly clear.

[LeftyMom]

72. You're far too old to pretend to misunderstand women to get headpats from men.

Playing dumb is far less dignified than a septugenarian in a bikini.

[Cleita]

75. Dignity?

I haven't been told to be dignified since Sister Mary Margaret told me to close my legs and pull my skirt down.

[grahamhgreen]

74. You don't need anyone here's permission:) Great post.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

76. Manny? Is that you?

[Luminous Animal]

78. I am surprised that, at age 74, you do not understand the grammatical distinction between

can and may.

[Cleita]

80. That's very rude.

Only my third grade teacher was allowed to correct me about that. However, who appointed you the grammar police here?

[Luminous Animal]

92. Just surprised, at your age,you didn't know. My daughter at age 24 knows and appreciates utilizing

that knowledge in everyday discourse.

[Cleita]

93. I do know, but sometimes I like to do vernacular in the way

people talk when speaking casually. I also say ain't when it suits me. Your poor daughter.

[Luminous Animal]

99. Ain't and isn't are equivalent. May and can are not.

[Cleita]

100. Is this a test?

[Luminous Animal]

104. Nah. Just me advocating the nuance of may.

I still mourn the loss of shall that has been usurped by will.

[Cleita]

106. Look. I write stuff and I understand the need to edit every word when

you seriously might be published. But otherwise, nah. It becomes a burden.

[Soundman]

156. How do you know you have won an argument?

When they start picking apart your grammar. Btw, I like your style... We need more of it around here.

[Warren DeMontague]

79. I support the right of people to make their own damn decisions about their own bodies.

Which is why I get called 'libertarian poopy face' and other clever names.

[nomorenomore08]

217. So do I. But simple principles aren't always adequate to a complex world.

I'm not arguing with you, just raising the point.

[Warren DeMontague]

219. No, they're not.

But as a baseline philosophical starting point, I think that one works just fine.

If we don't own our own bodies, liberty is a bad joke, an empty shell, a phantom in a house of fire.

We got, so to speak, nothin'.

[nomorenomore08]

220. Absolutely. Individual rights/freedoms are just as important as broader human rights

and you can't trample on one without trampling on the other.

[Adsos Letter]

83. No, you may not wear your swimsuit tomorrow...

...but you can come help me pull weeds in the yard.

Spring's a'comin'

[Cleita]

84. ...

[bravenak]

94. You don't have to ask.

Be like Nike and Just Do It.

[Cleita]

96. Thank you.

[Vashta Nerada]

101. It's very telling about the ugly responses you're getting in this thread.

It's sad, really.

I hope you have fun in the water tomorrow. It was 39 in MN today and it felt like 60. I would love to go swimming.

[Cleita]

102. Thank you.

I'll think of you while I play in the waves.

I agree that there is some meanness here. But it's not the real DU.

[MADem]

107. You could always try on one of these...

Might satisfy some folks.

I've actually seen these in use, as it were.


http://prelive.goldcoast.com.au/article/2009/09/30/142491_gold-coast-news.html

[Cleita]

109. Looks that would be more your style.

I'm sure it's lovely on you, but I'll pass.

[MADem]

113. Well, I thought you were looking for something that met with the censors' approval.

That would do the trick.

I fear that wouldn't suit me, though.

[Riftaxe]

111. I do believe the phrase is pictures!

Other then assuming you not sexy outside of swimsuit, may i say well done! The day DU looks at white bearded old men with the ginned up lust the gender wars have caused, i am gonna be Flagrant!

[In_The_Wind]

121. Yes, don't forget to apply sunscreen.

If it was 75° I would wear a swimsuit to the beach. Hell yeah.

[img][/img] [img][/img]

[JTFrog]

127. Of course.

Is it made out of straw like your OP?

That would be cute.

[Cleita]

131. Actually, maybe I'll go to Pirates Cove.

It's our local nude beach. I'll take pictures if you like.

[JTFrog]

134. You should take the suit along anyway.

Straw makes good kindling for a nice night time bonfire.

[Cleita]

136. Drift wood is better.

It will remind me of your brain.

[JTFrog]

142. You are sincerely a piece of work.

You post a ridiculous strawman OP. You rant back and forth about misogyny. You claim to have encountered a plethora of it and have been fighting it all your life, but discount any "reality" where others might have encountered it except in some sick world they[i/] live in. You pretend that this is about the dangers of you putting on a bathing suit and becoming a sex object and not about the fight against the misogyny and objectification that is harming females young and old in our society. You literally tell other posters "fuck you" and "shove it where the sun don't shine". Do you really think your behavior here makes you a bad ass? Cuz quite frankly, I think it makes you the exact opposite of a bad ass.

[MattBaggins]

155. For 74 she has a lot of growing up to do.

[madokie]

132. It was 72 here last Sunday

and I had my mostly old white ass in shorts and no shirt on while raking the damn sweet gum tree balls into piles in our yard.
the last thing I was feeling was sexy, course I never feel that. Mostly just pissed that I didn't cut these fucking trees down when we first purchased this place 11 years ago and replaced them with any other kind of tree.

[Cleita]

137. Aww.

[sufrommich]

145. I note the lack of "not this shit again" posts

for this OP......again.

[Evergreen Emerald]

149. If you truly don't know the difference

We are in more trouble than we realize.

[ananda]

151. Swim naked for all I care.

Do any damn thing you well please.

Put sexism on ignore.

[MattBaggins]

153. Apparently we can not since you had to post BS

Create a mocking post on a perfetly legitimate topic and than ask if if we can move on?

[liberal N proud]

154. You can do whatever you would like

Just remember while it is 75 and you dip into the cold water, that there are some of us where it is still just COLD.

Hope you enjoy the warm weather, swimsuit or not!

[Rex]

161. Well if you live your life according to what people say on a public forum

you might end up looking like this;

[Beacool]

166. I hate you!!!!

75????? It's not nice to brag how good the weather is where you live.




As for the bathing suit, meh, what's the problem?

[Cleita]

192. Hope you get nicer weather soon and that we get rain.

I will gladly trade my day at the beach for rain.

[Beacool]

216. Oh, you're in CA.

You guys are going trough a terrible drought and we got more snow and ice that we can handle. Maybe we should trade.

I hope that it starts raining soon in your state.

[Sheldon Cooper]

169. LOL

[Warren DeMontague]

190. Right, no one wants to tell anyone what to do.

I mean, not this week, at least.

[laundry_queen]

197. HAHA! pretty much! Or this

[URL=https://imageshack.com/i/nbpointvb2g][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Sheldon Cooper]

205. Hahahah!!

Good one!

[LittleBlue]

172. These nifty Islamic swimsuits help you keep your modesty

Nigella wears one!

(Actually they look pretty useful in avoiding skin damage)

[Cleita]

173. Well, why don't you send that to Sports Illustrated. Evidently that is what would be

an acceptable item for a swimsuit edition according to a certain element here.

[LittleBlue]

174. That might be an acceptable compromise

To keep the peace and all.

By the way, have a good swim! I'm a bit envious as it's currently damp and cold here.

[NCTraveler]

195. Please show me where one duer

has said that swimming in a swimsuit makes you a sex object?

When you get into your swimsuit, and a guy stares at you, you might figure something out about the image that the SI issue is promoting that is sexist. never mind, you still won't get it. Just taking another dump in GD. Hope it is worth it for you. Please re-read your op. Read it from your adult intellect side. Then forgive yourself for being so childish.


"Can we stop this nonsense once and for all?"

Clearly you don't have the willpower.

[nomorenomore08]

218. So much straw flung around recently... We need a strawman clean-up crew or something...

[Hekate]

196. Enjoy. Just don't rub frozen Easterners' noses in your sunshiny day!

[yuiyoshida]

210. I had to look up Arroyo Grande, California

That's Just north of Santa Barbara not far from Pismo Beach. I used to live in Santa Barbara for a few years. I loved going to Goleta Beach...


But mostly hung out at Hendry's beach in Santa Barbara.


It was far better than those other tourists spots near downtown Santa Barbara and the Pier. They had a decent little snak place there as well. I miss those Santa Barbara days, I only left because the prices were too high to live there. Lots of Celebrities lived near Santa Barbara..
and they were often visiting the town for events like Fiesta;Old Spanish Days.

[idendoit]

214. No swim suits until Memorial Day!

Fashion faux pas.

[MineralMan]

222. Nobody cares what you decide to wear, Cleita.

And that's not what any of this is about. You know that. You, and everyone else, is free to select his or her own attire. Wearing a bathing suit does not objectify you in any way. You know that, as well.

Your choice of attire, or anyone's choice of attire has not been the topic of conversation in any of the recent threads. You know that, as well.

The objectification of women has nothing to do with your choice of swimwear on a 75 degree day in California. It never has. The discussion is about something completely different. You know that, too.

I'm afraid this post is an embarrassing one for you. It doesn't say what you think it says about you.

[hlthe2b]

223. ^^Yes, she knows quite well^^^

what it says to me about her attitude towards women who have worked so hard to ensure the freedom, rights, and expectations she has today and to the young women fighting to ensure progress continues, is "I got mine. To hell with YOU".

If that is the portrayal she was seeking, I guess she's succeeded rather well.