Straight White Male: The Lowest Difficulty Setting There Is

[Warren Stupidity]

I’ve been thinking of a way to explain to straight white men how life works for them, without invoking the dreaded word “privilege,” to which they react like vampires being fed a garlic tart at high noon. It’s not that the word “privilege” is incorrect, it’s that it’s not their word. When confronted with “privilege,” they fiddle with the word itself, and haul out the dictionaries and find every possible way to talk about the word but not any of the things the word signifies.

So, the challenge: how to get across the ideas bound up in the word “privilege,” in a way that your average straight white man will get, without freaking out about it?

Being a white guy who likes women, here’s how I would do it:

Dudes. Imagine life here in the US — or indeed, pretty much anywhere in the Western world — is a massive role playing game, like World of Warcraft except appallingly mundane, where most quests involve the acquisition of money, cell phones and donuts, although not always at the same time. Let’s call it The Real World. You have installed The Real World on your computer and are about to start playing, but first you go to the settings tab to bind your keys, fiddle with your defaults, and choose the difficulty setting for the game. Got it?

Okay: In the role playing game known as The Real World, “Straight White Male” is the lowest difficulty setting there is.

http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/15/straight-white-male-the-lowest-difficulty-setting-there-is/

[jeff47]

1. I'd add "Rich" and "Christian" to get the truly lowest difficulty setting. (nt)

[Xyzse]

107. That is god-mode and cheat code. (nt)

[Dark n Stormy Knight]

187. Lol!

[Xyzse]

225. Seeing you laugh just made me laugh uncontrollaby for a good 3 minutes.

[LostOne4Ever]

208. Main stream Protestant Christian (nt)

[xchrom]

2. du rec.

[LittleBlue]

3. This is just going to anger the white men

who have had rotten luck in life.

Life is not easy for anyone, except maybe the 1%. Difficulty in life is more about wealth and status than race. Privilege and "ease of life" has to be judged at the individual level, there is no setting for an entire race.

[VanillaRhapsody]

15. wrong....if you were a member of another group....you would understand why...

[LittleBlue]

22. Not sure I would

If I were Malia Obama, definitely not.

Life can be easy for anyone, until fortune changes and it's not.

[VanillaRhapsody]

25. You are not Malia Obama...and she is just an exception to the rule...she doesn't prove the rule

wrong...

Exceptions don't change this at all.....

[LittleBlue]

31. The exception proves that

you can't label someone's life easy based on their race.

It's ludicrous.

[VanillaRhapsody]

33. NO it doesn't! If you are born White Male and Heterosexual....YOU are born with

advantages over those who are not....ALL statistics prove that to be true...

Dismissing it means you don't understand the plight of others...



OH and no one said "easy" .....it is "easier" than someone born female, non-white...or non heterosexual...

If you are not one....you hit the life lottery.

[LittleBlue]

47. I'm sorry, that's not persuasive at all

We are not statistics. Many don't fit those statistics.

Fact: "White households earn X% more income than black households"

And from those statistics you've derived such a ludicrous statement as "White people have the easiest difficulty setting".

Post facts, not some tripe about difficulty settings.

[VanillaRhapsody]

50. sorry but it is that simple....

denial is not a river in Egypt..

If you were head to head the same as a woman...or a Black person...or Gay...and you are applying for a job all things equal....YOU a Whilte male is the most likely to get the job...

THAT is a fact.

[LittleBlue]

59. The world is not simple

And to be honest, I'm pretty comfortable seeing life and people as more complex than just the simplistic notion of a difficulty setting. I pity whoever wrote this OP.

[kwassa]

114. I pity the lack of knowledge exemplified by your post.

Statistics do tell the truth, in a general way.

[LittleBlue]

119. Someone else said "all other things being equal"

To determine that, wouldn't we have to know a person's mental health, physical health, beauty, charisma, height, weight, and intelligence? And those are just some things influenced by genetic traits.

What about whether they were sexually abused, physically abused, or emotionally abused by their parents? Suddenly someone with all the favored genetic traits, and let's throw in white skin and a penis to boot, that person's life becomes impossibly difficult. And now introduce that very important element of chance and fortune. After all, one favorable or unfavorable outcome can change a person's life.

My point is that there are so many measures of difficulty in one's life that measuring it for an entire ethnicity is impossible. There is no such thing as "all other things being equal" because of the near-infinite number of permutations.

[kwassa]

127. I think you are very wrong

My point is that there are so many measures of difficulty in one's life that measuring it for an entire ethnicity is impossible.

Then why do we have such massive disparity by ethnicity in this country?

[LittleBlue]

134. Because of racism and our history

and probably a lot of other things that would be too long to write about.

Actually I kind of agree with your other post where the black gentleman describes being black as another problem. It has made his life more difficult, but that doesn't mean it made a white man's life easy. Ease of life isn't a limited quantity that we can possess only at the expense of another.

[Arugula Latte]

150. You seem to have trouble grasping the concept of saying

"lowest difficulty" is not the same as saying "easy."

[LittleBlue]

152. I have a problem quantifying ease or difficulty based solely on skin color

That's all

[AverageJoe90]

171. That makes sense, TBH.

Honestly, I don't think there's many on this site who are in denial about the fact that People of Color generally do have to face more disadvantages, or risk of disadvantage(e.g. not every black or Latino, etc. person will be pulled over for some B.S. reason but they're at greater risk for it than a white guy would be), than white folks.

TBH, the biggest problem seems to be communication of said points.

[brush]

317. And where do you think racism came from . . .

"straight white males", as did sexism, genderism (if that's a word) and all the other "isms" that form discrimination that tilt the playing field and winnow the competition for jobs, opportunist etc. in favor of "straight white males".

It's pretty apparent outside of the prism of blinder-wearing-in-denial-straight-white-maleism".

Fortunately for the country not all "straight white males" wear the blinders. Many are and have been actual progressives who do and did more than wallow in contrarianism for arguments sake, or for who knows what or why, otherwise the country wouldn't have progressed much Jim Crowism and women being the property of blinder-wearing-in-denial-straight-white-males".

I would say enjoy your delusional world but I think you have to know better than what you've presented in these posts, which reminds me of the famous line about another straight white male, George W. Bush:

"He can't help it, he was born on third base and thought he hit a triple."

[WhiteTara]

260. and because things aren't equal admit you are steeped

in white male privilege. No matter how bad things get, men now matter the race or color always have it better than the women of the same.

When you place a man and a woman in a position where there is a reward (top job, accolades, honors, pay raise) it is given to the man so frequently, it can almost be called a rule. On the other hand if presented with a tedious task it is invariably given to the woman.

I find it everywhere. Of course, I've had successes just as I've had failures; but I'm just saying what I have observed in almost 70 years of life on the planet.

[RBStevens]

62. *We* are not statistics? Then who is?

I don't fit a ton of statistics but I do fit a ton more.

[LittleBlue]

76. No one

You can fit a wealth statistic, but you can't fit a difficulty setting statistic. Difficulty is all-encompassing. It involves near infinite possibilities, and on top of that, it's subjective.

Someone with (what the article would deem) a low "difficulty setting" could be diagnosed with a painful, terminal illness tomorrow. His/her difficulty setting could go from easy to impossible in one day. 10,000 people and their families in Sendai had an easy difficulty setting until they were drowned. Some people who appear to have easy lives are tormented by their demons.

People are too complex to be described like a video game setting with such a simplistic notion of difficulty.

[RBStevens]

86. Well first of all, I was adressing you saying that

*we* (presumably people) are not statistics. And yes individually we are not but together based on general commonalities we become statistics.

But since you've changed the focus to difficulty settings - it's an analogy and a pretty apt one.

[kwassa]

116. Nonsense.

As one black gentleman said in a diversity workshop 20 years ago "whatever problem you have in life, being black is just one more thing". It pretty well sums it up. If a white person and a black person have similar problems, the probability is strong that the black person will have additional things to deal with.

[MattBaggins]

211. You are willfully clueless on this topic aren't you?

[brush]

315. The post said "straight while males" have advantages born into our society . . .

Last edited Sat Feb 22, 2014, 02:13 AM - Edit history (1)

not white families v black families.

It seems some, and you seem to be said straight white male, have either observational blind spots, or maybe denial problems.

[bettyellen]

135. And Beyonce proves black women are overpaid!!

Seriously? LOL.

[LittleBlue]

144. Strawman ahoy!

[bettyellen]

148. I know- what idiot thinks Sasha and Malia are average people that prove any point? LoL

[LittleBlue]

151. Someone thought Malia and Sasha were average?

That person should have her head examined.

[bettyellen]

156. yeah, that they are- statiscally- complete outliers should be kind of obvious. I bet there's an

Oprah mention in this thread too, ha ha.

[AngryDem001]

172. "Life can be easy for anyone, until fortune changes and it's not. "

THIS.

How many of those stories have we seen on this board?

Misfortune IGNORES race. It IGNORES gender. It IGNORES sexual orientation.

[uppityperson]

181. Misfortune might ignore that but human behavior does not.

Matthew Shepard. KKK. GTA's violence against women.

Those are not "misfortune" but human caused misery against sexual orientation, race, gender. And the point of the OP.

[brush]

318. Finally someone spells it out so even the in-denial contrarians . . .

can't argue.

"Misfortune might ignore that but human behavior does not."

Short, sweet and to the point.

I love it.

[laundry_queen]

217. Let's spell it out for you

If you have misfortune while you are a white male, it means that you are likely to do better than another person, who is a minority, who is like you who has the SAME MISFORTUNE. It doesn't mean if you are a white male, you won't have ANY misfortune. It means, given that ALL OTHER THINGS are equal, someone who is a minority, or a female will do WORSE than the white male in the EXACT SAME SITUATION. Repeat after me: EXACT. SAME. SITUATION.

Welcome to DU.

[Baitball Blogger]

248. As long as we're speaking in generalities, there are options available

to you that are not available to minorities. Perceptions, alone, can help you out of a bad spell. Let's take depression, for example. If you show the usual symptoms, someone might refer you to a doctor where a good diagnosis is 75% the cure. But a member of a minority group would be seen as lazy.

People will listen to you, while we have to tough things out. You have resources available to you, that we don't have.

Christ, I live in a community where no one expected me to fight back, and now they're trying to figure out where I get my attitude from. Who the hell am I to question their backwater system? That kind of thing. My own in-law tried to figure out why I wouldn't just lay down and take the abuse. He had a theory that I came from an upper class family and was just not use to being roughed up.

What the hell. My parents pulled themselves out of poverty. If it looks like I'm copping an attitude it's because I grew up believing that I am an American, and I thought that meant that nobody has the right to abuse your rights.

But it's a fight I have to be willing to fight everyday.

[Warren Stupidity]

21. We already seem to be pretty angry.

So as a group I'm not terribly concerned about straight white men getting angry.

[RBStevens]

51. Yeah, wouldn't want to speak the truth for fear

of angering the white guys who didn't get everything they were *promised* by the white guys in power.

[Scootaloo]

23. Except within equal wealth strata, the straight white male has more privilege and ease than his peer

Class is important, to be sure, but it doesn't erase the other things. With all else being equal, a white man who likes women will be ahead of everyone else, simply by the privilege afforded him on those bases.

[LittleBlue]

43. "Within equal wealth strata"

Unless of course he has a disability. Or is ugly. Or has a mental disorder. Or was sexually abused as a child and can't cope with life. Or diagnosed with cancer of bowels, like my friend was.

People are individuals, not data points in different wealth strata. That's why the OP is stupid. We are people with a near infinitely different set of circumstances.

[Codeine]

56. We are people with a near infinitely different set of circumstances

That's a very good way of putting it.

[Scootaloo]

84. Good to know racism, sexism, and homophobia are non-issues

I was in the dark about the good news all this time!

[Inkfreak]

97. All due respect, I don't think the poster said that at all.

I think the poster is just saying more nuance could be used in these types of discussions. ymmv.

[AverageJoe90]

158. Seconded x1,000. nt

[LittleBlue]

98. Surely there are better strawmen than that

Your heart isn't in it.

[MattBaggins]

215. Perhaps they should use one of yours

[Inkfreak]

87. This is a valid point.

The OP is phrased poorly. White people undoubtly have benifited in our society over minorities. But being told our "difficulty setting" is on easy is a poor choice of wording to anyone who has encountered hardships in life.

Yet I am capable of realizing that a black person has many hardships in a white dominated society. This OP has played out many times here. And it's always the same back & forth.

I believe the overall concern in today's America is wealth disparity. Raising up everyone's economic status and education for all at an affordable cost will iron out these racial disparities. Eventually. I gotta believe. But..I'm an optimist. I believe my generation and the ones following are less likely to carry on racial prejudices.

[LittleBlue]

102. I believe the same

Wealth is power and influence in this world, and ever more so as the years go on.

Rather than labeling, it's more accurate to say that blacks are at a socioeconomic disadvantage on average. Or perhaps to shift thinking into how we can lessen the burden on all people who are socioeconomically disadvantaged, and close that gap, because that should be the goal.

But a headline like that would generate far fewer hits. Setting disadvantaged people against one another will drive hits for the site and attention to the writer, which is good for him but ultimately counterproductive.

[brush]

320. Sound like contrarianism for the sake of it. The OP is spot on to most on this site.

Of course people have differences, but they have more commonalities than differences. Especially those in the same gender and race.

[AverageJoe90]

48. That makes more sense when you think about it.

TBH, we can still use "privilege" to describe economic & social affluence amongst individuals, and even small groups, such as families, organizations, etc.; most people will understand this a lot better, and it will not affect our ability to point out that People of Color still do face disadvantages.

As I said, the original intent behind the crafting of "white privilege" was noble, I'm sure. But sadly, it has not been effective in informing the general public and so really should be discarded for something more straightforward. I realize this may be hard to accept for a few folks on here, but I'm afraid we have no other choice at this point.

[Warpy]

58. This isn't about money

This is about comfort in your own skin, something denied to anyone who isn't a white male.

[RBStevens]

65. +1

[boston bean]

85. Do rich white men feel the racism that rich black men feel.

probably fucking not. Money does not trump the prejudices or discrimination.

[hughee99]

139. Who has it better, a Straight White Male West Virginia Coal Miner, or Oprah?

All other factors being equal, certainly the SWM has it far easier, but don't discount the effect money has on things.

[boston bean]

153. Has that straight white male west virginia coal miner

ever felt racism? Maybe you think Oprah is racist against him cause she's got money.

[AverageJoe90]

159. It's rare, but still possible.

Maybe not *institutional* racism, true, but perhaps this hypothetical person may still be the victim of interpersonal racism, even a hate crime.....yes, even us white people can be victims of hate crimes.

[boston bean]

165. We aren't talking rarity.

The rarity doesn't erase the reality.

[AverageJoe90]

169. I'm not sure by what you mean.....or if you understood my point.

No offense meant, though.

[boston bean]

170. I got what you meant. I don't agree with your premise

or that is somehow negates privilege.

[AverageJoe90]

174. It doesn't negate *disadvantages* faced by PoC, no.

But use of the term "privilege" remains *rather* problematic; people outside our little echo chamber are getting the wrong impression and that isn't what we need right now. Even people here are having issues with it........that should tell us something.....that something needs to change. More specifically, our terminology.

[boston bean]

177. Well, the people who seem to be offended here, are the usual persons

who respond with hostility to basic feminist principles. Sorry, not putting much stock in their reactions.

[hughee99]

272. My apologies, I didn't realize this discussion was about who had felt racism.

I thought it was about who has it easier. I suggested that enough money can more than make up for someone's race, gender or sexual orientation, and provided an extreme example.

I have no idea why you would suggest that I think Oprah is a racist.

[lumberjack_jeff]

194. Do black women feel the racism that black men feel?

Let's ask Trayvon Martin and his sister.

Sadly, only one of them is still around to ask.

[boston bean]

195. of course. what a ridiculous question.

[malokvale77]

249. ^^^this^^^

Well stated.

[uppityperson]

198. I used to think that way and then realized that what is behind wealth and status is racism, and sexi

sexism and homophobia.

Who is wealthy and powerful, how did they get that way? Overall by a huge amount, the basis for wealth and power is based on racism, sexism, homophobia.

[eridani]

259. The analogy works very well--difficulty setting is not the only initial setting

You have to roll for charisma, wealth, etc. If you have lousy outcomes there, you still have the lowest difficulty setting, even though it doesn't do you much good.

[cali]

4. over broad generalizations. I'd rather be born a half jewish half black

physically disabled woman with good loving parents than a white male with abusive ones.

If you're abused as a child odds are great that you will not go cruising through life on the lowest difficulty setting.

What happens in your childhood- poverty, abuse, privilege, kindness, cruelty etc, has a huge impact on those settings.

[LanternWaste]

8. I think the premise implies an 'all other things being equal' qualifier.

I think the premise implies an 'all other things being equal' qualifier.

"If you're abused as a child odds are great that you will not go cruising through life on the lowest difficulty setting..."
E.g., qualify that statement with "abused as a black child..." then "abused as a black female child...", then even"abused as a lesbian black female child..." Granted, they all suck, but the degrees become more and more pronounced.

[cali]

9. I disagree. Growing up with abusive parents with power and money

How does a kid fight that? and the system won't bother either.

I think it all depends on so many different factors, but the bottom line is that children who grow up loved and in a secure environment have an easier time in life than those who grow up in an abusive setting.

[VanillaRhapsody]

16. Yes Affluenza is such a debilitating disease!

why it cripples you and you will NEVER make anything of yourself!

[cali]

30. so you don't think that a child raped and beaten by a parent is deserving of

compassion or understanding because that child was born into a wealthy family.

that's disgusting, 'nilla.

[CreekDog]

112. what you're saying is that being black is such a disadvantage that the only way it's an advantage...

is if it's compared to a white person living as an ongoing victim of child abuse.

congratulations, you made the overall point better than even the OP.

you have proven white privilege exists.

and i give you credit, you thought you were doing the opposite!

[LanternWaste]

95. Most certainly. And the white male child will have an easier time than the black male child

"children who grow up loved and in a secure environment have an easier time..."

Most certainly. And the white male child will have an easier time than the black male child who will himself have an easier time than the black female child, and on and on down through the cultural pecking order.

Again-- necessary qualifier "all other things being equal", then do the cultural maths.

[hfojvt]

12. you don't even need to put deliberate abuse in the picture

growing up with well off college educated parents versus growing up with poor non-educated parents, is going to make a big difference.

[boston bean]

28. That is the wrong way to look at it.

All else being equal, which one has it easier, is the question.

[wandy]

5. Until said Straight White Male gets old. Then even nature changes the difficulty level. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

17. right about the time they have to collect Social Security and Medicare...

[Boom Sound 416]

6. This

Is just stoopid.

[VanillaRhapsody]

19. only some in said group seem to think so...

[Boom Sound 416]

27. Oh please

Be my guest. Take this little 2nd grade analogy that is an embarrassment and hold it as high as you like.

You just think of me when you do. The guy who had it all: skin color, testicles and a desire for boobies. That was the secret of my success and how I waltzed all over your best intentions.

[VanillaRhapsody]

64. Women STILL make $0.77 on the dollar to men

denial is NOT a river in Egypt and any 2nd grader understands this math...

[Boom Sound 416]

77. I'm not disputing income inequality

You're talking to the husband of a executive business woman.

[VanillaRhapsody]

79. that is an exception to the rule....doesn't negate it...

If as a man...you are MORE Likely to make more money than a woman (fact) then you benefit from that privilege...as a man!

You are also more likely to make more money than a Black person.....

Therefore you have White Male Privilege.

[Boom Sound 416]

88. I'm not disputing income inequality

Or sexism in the workplace. I've lived it firsthand (well secondhand) for years.

I dispute the overly broad and overly shallow analogies that are nothing more than chest thumping.

We all know the friggin problem. Castigating white heterosexual men will not help the situation.

It's not a solution. It's not a contribution.

[VanillaRhapsody]

90. THEN you just proved that you accept White Male Privilege exists...

denying it exists changes NOTHING.

[LanternWaste]

99. You appear to be confusing "castigating" with "contrast and compare".

"Castigating white heterosexual men will not help the situation..."

You appear to be confusing "castigating" with "contrast and compare". They are two wholly separate concepts, and compare & contrast are in fact, tools to assist one in finding and then defining solutions.

[Boom Sound 416]

110. I'm sorry I'm not following

[kwassa]

118. No one is castigating.

Understand?

[Boom Sound 416]

121. Well,

1. to criticize or reprimand severely.
2. to punish in order to correct.
---

That's the way I took it. Maybe that's just me. But, I doubt it.


Thanks for the clarification

[kwassa]

125. I think the OPs intent was simply to clarify a point.

[VanillaRhapsody]

129. He seems to think by merely pointing out that he has advantages...its some kind of punishment!

[Boom Sound 416]

145. Ok, but I don't.

It's all to common especially given the current state of DU

[VanillaRhapsody]

128. You are being punished just by having the facts placed before you?

how is that punishing you?

Or are you saying that trying to make things equal means YOU lose something....that is an argument that the Right makes regarding Zero Sum games...

[Boom Sound 416]

140. See 138

[VanillaRhapsody]

143. How are you being punished by knowing the truth?

does the truth hurt you?

[Boom Sound 416]

147. ...

[Codeine]

7. Not since they issued the White Trash patch.

My game defaulted to Trailer Park when I started and it pretty thoroughly messed up the settings for me.

[bettyellen]

10. yet someone could put you in a suit and a bus ticket and you'd fare better than

that woman or black guy who have identical resumes once you were all being interviewed at Anyjob, USA.
That is the premise.

[Codeine]

13. Understood.

I'm just saying that dismissing all discussion of class in favor of race isn't in line with any sort of useful Leftist theory in my estimation.

[VanillaRhapsody]

20. Its not JUST race....its gender too....

you have fewer obstacles in life than someone in the same circumstances than you that are either not male or not white..

that is the point.

[Codeine]

32. Of course.

I really don't think we have as much disagreement as you imagine here. I'm just trying to point out the there are degrees of privilege, and Poor White Trash is not a breeze.

Given my druthers, I'd have chosen to be a black kid raised by college-educated parents than a white kid raised in a trailer park by low-lifes, surrounded by other low-lifes. Acknowledging the class distinctions at work doesn't invalidate the race distinctions, which are acute and often overwhelming.

And gender is a whole other layer of privilege, obviously. I'm quite glad I was born male -- girls with my background usually fare far, far worse than boys. I shudder to imagine what being a girl in that sort of predatory shithole must have been like.

[VanillaRhapsody]

37. and then you agree....lowest degree of difficulty....

and stop denying it...

exceptions to the rule do not negate the rule...

[Warren Stupidity]

24. I'm not dismissing "all discussion of class".

I'm trying to find ways to discuss privilege without angry white men going off the rails.

I'll keep searching, obviously this isn't working either.

[Codeine]

40. I don't see angry white guys going off the rails here.

I think it's a fairly decent analogy, but like most analogies it smacks people as being overly broad. I wouldn't presume to assume that all black men or Asian women have the same experiences or opportunities, so it's going to rankle folks on an individual level when we do so for white dudes, even if we can acknowledge that on a general level that yeah, being a white person with testicles does take a bit of pressure off, all things considered.

[AverageJoe90]

162. A decent, solid response, TBH.

[Boom Sound 416]

49. Think on why it's not working

Rather than the appropriate analogy

[VanillaRhapsody]

67. do women make the same salary as men?

do Black people make the same money as Whites?

Answer YES to both questions....this means men have a lower degree of diffictulty...

[Boom Sound 416]

81. Maybe you should re-read your statement.

Because I'm confused by your assertion.

But not by the straw man

[VanillaRhapsody]

82. Its not straw...it is FACT!

quantifiable...


Women make $0.77 for every dollar a man makes...You also will likely make more money than Black people...

Thus you have an example of White Male Privilege...

[Boom Sound 416]

92. I'm union

My bothers and sisters make the same as me

[VanillaRhapsody]

93. I don't care...YOUR anecdotal experience doesn't change the facts....

Women make less money than a man....that IS the fact.

[Boom Sound 416]

108. My anecdotal experience?

No, that's a real world example. And just because it doesn't fit into your little box doesn't mean it's not real and multiplied.

[Democracyinkind]

124. "Anecdotal" and "real world" are not opposites... nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

126. NO that is JUST yours and YOURS alone...

just because it is not the norm....doesn't mean the norm doesn't exist.

Even though YOU are not paid more than a woman


Doesn't mean that women as a whole are NOT paid less than men...YOUR personal truth doesn't extrapolate to the whole populace does it?

[Boom Sound 416]

138. That was not my point

You're off topic and I'm on to something else

[VanillaRhapsody]

141. No I am not...and NO that was your point....as others in this thread have also pointed out to you...

[Boom Sound 416]

146. Others

You mean 1

That's like using 'some' as a plural when it means at least one.


I'm out

[linuxman]

199. I find that difficult to believe

Which jobs do men and women occupy in this country where men are by default paid more than women for the same work? I don't know of any. Every study I've seen demonstrates that the statistic you quote takes aggregate earning from across all job fields (men tend to take on riskier/higher paying occupations), thereby ignoring that within the same industries, separate factors account for wage discrepancies (willingness to relocate, overtime, etc, a man's tendency to negotiate for higher wages...)


I want you to answer this question. If women were actually paid 0.77 for every dollar a man earns for the same work, wouldn't companies employ women exclusively (or at least try to...)? I keep hearing this same story about the wage gap, but nobody examines the meat of it. Talking points which ignore objective reality are so much more palatable, I suppose...

[VanillaRhapsody]

219. You guys don't KNOW this? ...Serious....

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/gender-wage-gap_n_3941180.html

In 2012, the median earnings of American women working full time year-round were $37,791. American men earned a median income of $49,398. The gender wage gap has hovered at about 77 cents on the dollar since 2007.

Women are also lagging behind men in terms of re-employment after the recession. The number of men working full time year-round increased by 1 million between 2011 and 2012, while the number of full-time working women remained close to the same.

Within some minority groups, the wage gap is even worse: African-American women earn 69 cents for every dollar paid to African-American men, and Latinas earn just 58 cents on the dollar compared to Latino men. The disparity grows wider when these women are compared to non-Hispanic white men.

How can you hang around DU and be in denial about the Wage gaps? Unreal

[linuxman]

227. Because I understand basic math.

Below it where the issue is for me.

In 2012, the median earnings of American women working full time year-round were $37,791. American men earned a median income of $49,398. The gender wage gap has hovered at about 77 cents on the dollar since 2007.

As I already stated, women aren't being paid differently based on sex for the same jobs (except in regard to overtime and positions of negotiated salary, in which men prevail.).

Presenting this as "women are by default underpaid due to circumstances out of their hands" is BS. It's called averages. Men tend to seek work in higher paying fields, work more overtime, and aggressively pursue a higher negotiated salary. In the end it will average out to them making more as a group. I still don't know of any business that pays women less than men for the exact same positions.

Again, why would businesses not just hire all female staffs?

Which businesses pay women less for the same work?

[VanillaRhapsody]

246. Goodyear did.....ask Lilly Ledbetter!

[Orrex]

252. According to your own reply #93, that's an anecdote

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4536475

Care to try again?

[VanillaRhapsody]

254. No you asked for an example and I gave you one...AND it is SOOO pervasive that the FIRST

thing Pres. Obama enacted was the Lilly Ledbetter ACT as a result of her tireless work....

You better try again....


You want to know HOW bad that was....not only was she denied pay for many years....she also retired BEFORE the Lilly Ledbetter act...her retirement was contingent to what her salary was on retirement day...ALSO so is her Social Security.....

we are talkiing thousands and thousands of dollars this poor woman was discriminated out of!

The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act of 2009 (Pub.L. 111–2, S. 181) is a federal statute in the United States that was the first bill signed into law by President Barack Obama on January 29, 2009. The Act amends the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The new act states that the 180-day statute of limitations for filing an equal-pay lawsuit regarding pay discrimination resets with each new paycheck affected by that discriminatory action. The law directly addressed Ledbetter v. Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co., 550 U.S. 618 (2007), a U.S. Supreme Court decision that the statute of limitations for presenting an equal-pay lawsuit begins on the date that the employer makes the initial discriminatory wage decision, not at the date of the most recent paycheck.

[Orrex]

257. I didn't ask for it, but I used it to point out your hypocrisy

Why is one person's example--from her own life experience--invalid, while your example is to be accepted as gospel truth?

[VanillaRhapsody]

258. It is NOT Hypocrisy...only a White guy will deny it...

In 2012, the median earnings of American women working full time year-round were $37,791. American men earned a median income of $49,398. The gender wage gap has hovered at about 77 cents on the dollar since 2007.

Women are also lagging behind men in terms of re-employment after the recession. The number of men working full time year-round increased by 1 million between 2011 and 2012, while the number of full-time working women remained close to the same.

Within some minority groups, the wage gap is even worse: African-American women earn 69 cents for every dollar paid to African-American men, and Latinas earn just 58 cents on the dollar compared to Latino men. The disparity grows wider when these women are compared to non-Hispanic white men.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/gender-wage-gap_n_3941180.html

You can deny all you wont....I ain't buying...

And here discusses why you deny it:
http://www.psychologicalscience.org/index.php/news/minds-business/dissecting-white-male-privilege-at-work.html

[Orrex]

261. I can't tell--are you trying to race-bait me? Good luck with that.

You still haven't addressed the methodology by which the median incomes are calculated. I'll ask again:

Do those figures represent direct one-to-one wage comparisons between men and women working the same hours for the same jobs for the same companies in the same industries? We also need to know if the men and women have equal tenure at all of these jobs.

Or are these figures instead culled indiscriminately from the entire employment spectrum, without factoring in the number of hours worked, the types of jobs worked, or the companies and industries of employment?


If you're not comparing apples to apples--and it really appears that you are not--then you're basically just making shit up, no matter how many times you quote that HuffPo article.

[VanillaRhapsody]

263. Nope I am a White female..

http://www.buzzfeed.com/michaelblackmon/17-harrowing-examples-of-white-privilege-9hu9

[Orrex]

264. Then you were gender-baiting me. Got it. And why do you capitalize "White?"

Presumably, you'd be ok if I were to reply "Only a White female would try such a thing," right?

Sauce for the gander, after all.

[VanillaRhapsody]

265. truth knows no gender....

in fact it borders on racism and misogyny to deny those obvious truths....

if you are white and have a penis brand genitals....you won't be held back in life BECAUSE of those properties...

Not so true if you are female or a minority.....

[Orrex]

266. Well, you're hardly the arbiter of truth.

You can't even seem to understand the basic math, even when it's been explained to you repeatedly.

[VanillaRhapsody]

268. In this case I definitely am....you mean math like women make 77 cents on the dollar to men?

THAT math?

Because that is easily quantifiable

and then this link is for you...

http://amptoons.com/blog/files/mcintosh.html#daily

1. I can if I wish arrange to be in the company of people of my race most of the time.

2. I can avoid spending time with people whom I was trained to mistrust and who have learned to mistrust my kind or me.

3. If I should need to move, I can be pretty sure of renting or purchasing housing in an area which I can afford and in which I would want to live.

4. I can be pretty sure that my neighbors in such a location will be neutral or pleasant to me.

5. I can go shopping alone most of the time, pretty well assured that I will not be followed or harassed.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

7. When I am told about our national heritage or about "civilization," I am shown that people of my color made it what it is.

8. I can be sure that my children will be given curricular materials that testify to the existence of their race.

9. If I want to, I can be pretty sure of finding a publisher for this piece on white privilege.

10. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

11. I can be casual about whether or not to listen to another person's voice in a group in which s/he is the only member of his/her race.

12. I can go into a music shop and count on finding the music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit with my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

13. Whether I use checks, credit cards or cash, I can count on my skin color not to work against the appearance of financial reliability.

14. I can arrange to protect my children most of the time from people who might not like them.

15. I do not have to educate my children to be aware of systemic racism for their own daily physical protection.

16. I can be pretty sure that my children's teachers and employers will tolerate them if they fit school and workplace norms; my chief worries about them do not concern others' attitudes toward their race.

17. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down to my color.

18. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty or the illiteracy of my race.

19. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

20. I can do well in a challenging situation without being called a credit to my race.

21. I am never asked to speak for all the people of my racial group.

22. I can remain oblivious of the language and customs of persons of color who constitute the world's majority without feeling in my culture any penalty for such oblivion.

23. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behavior without being seen as a cultural outsider.

24. I can be pretty sure that if I ask to talk to the "person in charge", I will be facing a person of my race.

25. If a traffic cop pulls me over or if the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

26. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

27. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out-of-place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

28. I can be pretty sure that an argument with a colleague of another race is more likely to jeopardize her/his chances for advancement than to jeopardize mine.

29. I can be pretty sure that if I argue for the promotion of a person of another race, or a program centering on race, this is not likely to cost me heavily within my present setting, even if my colleagues disagree with me.

30. If I declare there is a racial issue at hand, or there isn't a racial issue at hand, my race will lend me more credibility for either position than a person of color will have.

31. I can choose to ignore developments in minority writing and minority activist programs, or disparage them, or learn from them, but in any case, I can find ways to be more or less protected from negative consequences of any of these choices.

32. My culture gives me little fear about ignoring the perspectives and powers of people of other races.

33. I am not made acutely aware that my shape, bearing or body odor will be taken as a reflection on my race.

34. I can worry about racism without being seen as self-interested or self-seeking.

35. I can take a job with an affirmative action employer without having my co-workers on the job suspect that I got it because of my race.

36. If my day, week or year is going badly, I need not ask of each negative episode or situation whether it had racial overtones.

37. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps, professionally.

38. I can think over many options, social, political, imaginative or professional, without asking whether a person of my race would be accepted or allowed to do what I want to do.

39. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

40. I can choose public accommodation without fearing that people of my race cannot get in or will be mistreated in the places I have chosen.

41. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

42. I can arrange my activities so that I will never have to experience feelings of rejection owing to my race.

43. If I have low credibility as a leader I can be sure that my race is not the problem.

44. I can easily find academic courses and institutions which give attention only to people of my race.

45. I can expect figurative language and imagery in all of the arts to testify to experiences of my race.

46. I can chose blemish cover or bandages in "flesh" color and have them more or less match my skin.

47. I can travel alone or with my spouse without expecting embarrassment or hostility in those who deal with us.

48. I have no difficulty finding neighborhoods where people approve of our household.

49. My children are given texts and classes which implicitly support our kind of family unit and do not turn them against my choice of domestic partnership.

50. I will feel welcomed and "normal" in the usual walks of public life, institutional and social.



and THAT is just everyday stuff....even if you wish to pretend you don't probably make more money than Black people or women!

[Orrex]

286. You're the arbiter of truth? That's some impressive hubris. And you should rethink that list.

First of all, you need to show your math regarding the $0.77 claim. You've been asked this repeatedly, and you haven't ever responded.

Do women earn 23% less than men in the same jobs working the same hours for the same companies in the same industries? Or are you saying that women earn 23% less on average--across all jobs, hours, companies and industries--than men?

If the former, then you should abandon that point because it's incorrect and therefore doesn't support your argument.
If the latter, then you should abandon that point because even if it's correct, it doesn't support your argument.


And that list of 50 goodies that you posted? Nearly every single one of them applies equally to you (being a White women--your capitalization, not mine) as they do to white men. In essence, you're saying "Being a white female, I don't receive quite as many benefits for being white and female as a white male receives for being white and male, so I'm the real victim here."


You're quite adept at finding the mote in the white man's eye, I'll give you that much.

[VanillaRhapsody]

297. There is no arbiter of truth....there just IS .....most experts of the NON Conservative bent...

will absolutely tell you that Women make....$0.77 for every $1 a man makes....FACT


Much like Climate Change...YOU don't get to have your own TRUTH!

Put THIS in your pipe and smoke it:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/03/07/the-wage-gap-between-men-and-women-has-grown-during-the-recovery/

[Orrex]

299. Either you don't grasp the question, or you don't have an answer

Do women make 23% less than men when they work the same hours at the same job for the same company in the same industry as men?

Or do women make 23% less than men when averaged over the entire workforce across all industries?


Please tell me that you understand the difference, because so far you've demonstrated no awareness of this very basic concept.

[VanillaRhapsody]

300. YES....if you would read an article you would KNOW the answer...that is what I have been telling you

You don't get your own truth.....

I have proof on my side....you just have your malarkey theory that you have not even bothered to research...


You seem to think that women don't work AS Hard or for as many hours....or with real SKILLS....I guess to you women DESERVE to make less....because YOU think they are just less valuable then men. THAT is YOUR bias right there...

[Orrex]

303. From the article:

(The study didn't evaluate men and women's earnings in comparable jobs or life choices, and it excluded part-time jobs.)

and

"Job growth in the last year has been in retail, catering, and minimum-wage jobs where women are more likely to be at minimum wage," she says, noting that higher-paying retail jobs like car sales are dominated by men.

In other words, they're not making a direct comparison of equivalent jobs. They're averaging statistics over the entire workforce. If you want to examine why women are disproportionately represented in these lower-wage jobs, I say go for it. But it's not as simple as crying "White male privilege" as you've done (capitalization yours, not mine).

All along you've been implying that women are earning less because they are women, when in fact they are earning less because they are working different jobs, as is shown by your cited article. Well no shit. I make less than the manager of my department, and she makes less than the owner of the company. Is that because she's a woman, or because she works a different job?

[VanillaRhapsody]

304. read my next post .....You are wrong!

you are twisting the facts to fit your narrative....By the way...Women have actually LOST ground. Before 2011 we were only making 82 to 1.00.....it has since DROPPED to 77!

Your theory is FLAWWED!

[Orrex]

307. This is my last post on the subject. You're the chess-playing pigeon.

The fact that women's wages have "LOST ground" (emphasis yours) since 2011 is not proof of wage discrimination; it is as readily explained by a loss of hours, greater representation in lower-wage jobs, etc.

You are the hammer who sees every problem as a nail. If women face a problem, in your view, it must be due to the gender privilege of the White male (emphasis yours, not mine).


I'm done dancing around with you on this. No facts, evidence, or analysis will persuade you. You are now free to shit on the chessboard and flutter off to claim victory.

[VanillaRhapsody]

312. Last post because you have been proven WRONG ...I provided LOTS of facts...

I actually LINKED AND provided text....

YOU have your flawwed theory that women must DESERVE to make less than YOU....


it's pretty sick when you start to think about it...

Equal pay is a family issue. Women make up nearly half of the U.S. labor force and are a growing number of breadwinners in their families. More women are also working in positions and fields that have been traditionally occupied by men. When women are not paid fairly, not only do they suffer, but so do their families.

[VanillaRhapsody]

302. And the Whitehouse agrees with me too...

Despite passage of the Equal Pay Act of 1963, which requires that men and women in the same work place be given equal pay for equal work, the "gender gap" in pay persists. Full-time women workers’ earnings are only about 77 percent of their male counterparts’ earnings. The pay gap is even greater for African-American and Latina women, with African-American women earning 64 cents and Latina women earning 56 cents for every dollar earned by a Caucasian man. Decades of research shows that no matter how you evaluate the data, there remains a pay gap — even after factoring in the kind of work people do, or qualifications such as education and experience — and there is good evidence that discrimination contributes to the persistent pay disparity between men and women. In other words, pay discrimination is a real and persistent problem that continues to shortchange American women and their families.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/issues/equal-pay#top

[Orrex]

305. Now you're shifting the goalposts.

We were comparing the wages of women vs. men, as you've been arguing all along. Now, when you realize that your point has been refuted from top to bottom, you're shifting the goalposts.

Your citation is pretty weak on specifics and cites no sources, stating that "there is good evidence that discrimination contributes to the persistent pay disparity." Contributes. Not "is the proximate cause of" or "a major factor in" the pay disparity. Contributes.


What's the pay gap between African-American or Latina women and white women like yourself, by the way? How are you campaigning to eliminate that disparity? Or are you simply accusing people of being Conservative White men? (emphasis yours, not mine.)

[VanillaRhapsody]

306. No I am not...I even underlined the relevant sentence....EVEN after factoring for type of work

education and experience!

How am I?

I am doing it right now....by schooling your ass. Thats how we get this fixed.....by making sure people like YOU even freaking realize this disparity exists!!!!

First thing you gotta do is make sure all the Liberal.....know this is even a problem....apparently there are some that still need some brochures or something...

[VanillaRhapsody]

298. Yes...I have the advantages of being a White Woman...but I am still not a man..

and by the way....if you bothered to actual read an article you will see that ALL of those contingencies were consider....Women make $.077 on the dollar...EVEN doing the EXACT same job with the EXACT same qualifications....THAT'S A FACT Jack!

EVEN college educated women....though it is not quite as stark...STILL make less than men doing the EXACT same job...


You should educate yourself BEFORE you add your 2 cents...

[brush]

321. Pls don't belabor the obvious point. She's got you on this, and most people on this site know it. nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

220. furthermore....

The gender wage gap can be attributed to several factors: Women make up a majority of workers in the 10 most common jobs that pay less than $10.10 an hour, and they tend to be under-represented in high-earning fields. Bloomberg Businessweek reported in 2012 that the only occupation in which women out-earn men is personal care and service work, including butlers, valets, shoe shiners and house sitters.

But studies show women are paid less even when they are in the same job and have the same experience as their male counterparts. The 2012 report by the American Association of University Women found that after controlling for occupation, college major, hours worked, employment sector and other factors related to a person's pay, the gender wage gap shrunk but did not entirely disappear.

"About one-third of the gap cannot be explained by any of the factors commonly understood to affect earnings, indicating that other factors that are more difficult to identify -- and likely more difficult to measure -- contribute to the pay gap," that report said.

[linuxman]

232. Vague report is vague

Show me a document from a business which outlines the authorized staring salaries for men and women, along with the gap.

Many positions that pay on a system outside of the per/hr. system use negotiated salaries. Men are more aggressive negotiators. Most people men don't even realize that this is still a thing, so it goes unnoticed when things like the pay gap are brought up.


I don't deny that on average the female component of our workforce makes less than the male component. I'm just stating that I sincerely doubt that sexism or unequal treatment is the reason for the disparity.

Personally, I think more women should pursue STEM degrees. You'd see a closing of the gap for sure. Ignoring the difference in occupations while talking about the wage gap ignores the real root causes and discredits the message, IMO.


If any of that came of as catty, it wasn't my intent.

[Adam051188]

235. mrowr

[VanillaRhapsody]

239. that is NOT vague at ALL....

You think businesses would KEEP documents lke that....you are delusional!


got two words for you....

Lilly Ledbetter!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilly_Ledbetter

that is just ONE documented case that it DOES happen...

Lilly Ledbetter was a supervisor at Goodyear Tire and Rubber’s plant in Gadsden, Alabama, from 1979 until her retirement in 1998. For most of those years, she worked as an area manager, a position largely occupied by men. Initially, Ledbetter’s salary was in line with the salaries of men performing substantially similar work. Over time, however, her pay slipped in comparison to the pay of male area managers with equal or less seniority. By the end of 1997, Ledbetter was the only woman working as an area manager and the pay discrepancy between Ledbetter and her 15 male counterparts was stark: Ledbetter was paid $3,727 per month; the lowest paid male area manager received $4,286 per month, the highest paid, $5,236.[8]

[Orrex]

78. One suggestion

Don't assume that asking a question or articulating an alternate viewpoint implies anger or equates to "going off the rails."

[AverageJoe90]

163. This, x1,000. EOM

[VanillaRhapsody]

247. what "alternative viewpoint"?

there isn't one....this is like Republican speak...."there are always 2 sides to the truth"!

[Orrex]

250. That's cultish absolutism.

When it was pointed out to you--correctly--that class is also a factor, you wrote it off as the ramblings of "angry white men going off the rails." You went out of your way to be insulting while dismissing outright an entirely legitimate alternative viewpoint.

Of course, you didn't actually address that alternative, and you certainly didn't refute it. You simply dismissed it as a tantrum.


The fact that you accept no possibility of alternatives is exactly the kind of cultish absolutism that leads self-described feminists to attack women on DU (and, presumably, elsewhere) for failing to march in lockstep.

[VanillaRhapsody]

251. No its NOT.... only a White Male would even say that....

if you are born in the U.S. and you have a penis and White skin....you have a head start in life...because:

In 2012, the median earnings of American women working full time year-round were $37,791. American men earned a median income of $49,398. The gender wage gap has hovered at about 77 cents on the dollar since 2007.

Women are also lagging behind men in terms of re-employment after the recession. The number of men working full time year-round increased by 1 million between 2011 and 2012, while the number of full-time working women remained close to the same.

Within some minority groups, the wage gap is even worse: African-American women earn 69 cents for every dollar paid to African-American men, and Latinas earn just 58 cents on the dollar compared to Latino men. The disparity grows wider when these women are compared to non-Hispanic white men.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/17/gender-wage-gap_n_3941180.html

[Orrex]

255. That's an adhominem, rather than a rebuttal

And you can keep re-citing that HuffPo article, but until you understand the basic underlying math--as it was clearly explained to you upthread--you can't really use that data to support your claim.

Are you asserting that men are paid more than women across the board for the same hours and the same jobs for the same companies in the same industries? Or are you saying that, on average across all industries and all hours and all jobs and all companies, men take home more than women?

If you're claiming the former, then you're simply incorrect, and you should really abandon that point because it doesn't support your argument.

If you're claiming the latter, then you're not incorrect, but you should really abandon that point because it doesn't support your argument.

[Spider Jerusalem]

39. Race is usually a proxy for class in the USA, though.

Especially for the "underclass". I remember having a discussion with someone here about how the working class were duped into thinking themselves "middle class"...and they described a childhood with factory-worker parents, and said "but I didn't know anyone 'working class', unless you count the housing projects on the other side of town where the poor people lived"

[bettyellen]

66. Understood, but your "estimation" is from the POV of someone unaffected by race and sexism. So, it

matters to you less, quite naturally. Perhaps you can keep in mind others of us can juggle both issues, instead of focusing only on what is important to you?

[gollygee]

14. White men with a criminal record

have a better chance of getting a job than black men without criminal records.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/17/nyregion/17felons.html?_r=0

Even white people who have had trouble in life have advantages.

[AverageJoe90]

160. I'd personally argue the point that it's not so much that white ex-cons are "advantaged"............

more that ex-cons of color are DISadvantaged, which makes loads more sense when you think about it.

[Baitball Blogger]

11. And if they're conservative, they still have to cheat to stay ahead.

[MineralMan]

18. Pretty much, yes.

I try to remember that as I go through life.

[seveneyes]

26. Should the difficulty setting be raised?

[LostOne4Ever]

212. or should difficulty setting of the other options be lowered?

Better to make life easier for everyone than making it more difficult for one group. To borrow from WoW terms, the game is overtuned.

[Warren Stupidity]

291. How about starting with acknowledging what the settings are?

[seveneyes]

292. How about getting the guilty parties to stop their administering of privilege?

[Brickbat]

29. A better way to describe privilege is "generally getting the benefit of the doubt."

As we see in the threads discussing it, white people get it more than black people. In some cases, men get it more than women. In others, women more than men. Calling it "privilege" for some reason raises hackles and inspires people to find exceptions, as in this thread.

[AverageJoe90]

161. Really, I myself have found that a better way to describe......

the disadvantages suffered by People of Color, is not to use the arcane "white privilege" language of days past, but to just come out and go straight to the point, that literally, "People of Color suffer more difficulties than white folks on the whole". I realize that it's kind of unwieldy though, so we really do need to try to brainstorm a new term that's easy for the Average American to understand but that also sums up the problem; and sadly, "white privilege" just doesn't cut it. It may be a preferred catharsis for some frustrated individuals, and that I understand. But it still needs to be replaced as an educational term, because it just isn't working right now.

[Nye Bevan]

34. FINALLY this issue is being addressed on DU.

THANK YOU for this thread. All straight white people need to accept just how damned easy they have it.

[1awake]

36. You forgot the sarcasm tag. n/t

[boston bean]

41. I sure as hell know I got it better

in many ways than LGBT. I can get married, I don't have to worry about stigmatization or violence in society because of my straightness.

Geebus...

[VanillaRhapsody]

70. I understand your frustration....sigh....

[1awake]

35. This is very interesting,

I'm not all that certain I have ever seen (up close) this straight white male privilege thing. I keep being told I had it.. even have it, but for the life of me I can't seem to locate it. Seems like it would be a handy thing to have?

Truthfully, I think it does exist, but requires several other labels added on to amount to much in today's world.

[VanillaRhapsody]

42. You can't tell because you cannot walk a mile in the shoes of someone who isn't one of those...

[1awake]

46. You havent walked a mile in mine so please dont act like you have. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

61. Yes but I AM walking in the shoes of a Female.....so I DO know that females make 20% less than

men holding the same jobs...

so YOUR premise that I cannot know...epic fail

[1awake]

69. lol.. epic over reach.

Last I heard females make almost 30% less then men... but thats another issue.

The only way you can reach your conclusion is to lump every straight white male into one single easy life category and go from there.... with is ridiculous. It makes no sense, scientifically impossible, and is offensive. I don't care who or what you are... your not me so stop trying to act like you know what I've experienced or seen. You haven't. I in no way stated that it doesnt exist... I said it required a few more labels to make it accurate. You being a female is irrelevant.

[VanillaRhapsody]

72. females make $0.77 for ever $1.0 that men make...

that means that their whole lives to this point...for every dollar I have made...a man in the same position just make made $1.23! Over a lifetime that REALLY adds up

That is an advantage....


Epic truth!

[1awake]

80. Your not getting what Im saying

and your explaining something I've already said to you. I NEVER said there's no such thing as Straight white privilege. But it requires more labels, because not EVERY straight white guy in this entire would received said privilege. That doesnt take away from other's being treated badly, or worse than many straight white guys.

People should not group all of anyone into a group because it's impossible to be true. Also, if you want to be honest, it wasn't until the last 100 years or so that I was even considered white lol.

[kwassa]

120. actually, every straight white male does recieve that privilege.

it does not mean that this privilege will overcome all things in life, however.

[1awake]

149. Sorry, can not agree

It's the "every" part I have issue with. It's completely impossible for pretty much any group or any argument.

[kwassa]

200. No, it isn't, actually.

[1awake]

218. Okay. n/t

[Comrade Grumpy]

73. I hope those are sensible shoes you're walking in.

[VanillaRhapsody]

74. Especially when I march for equal rights!

[AverageJoe90]

38. To be honest, there's some good stuff here, but yes, "privilege" IS incorrect when applied.....

in an American setting. It's a fact, and some people need to realize that.
And yes, I know full well the original intention behind the crafting of the term all those years ago. And it was a noble effort. Unfortunately, however, it does not make any practical sense when all real-world factors are applied, partly because the term still comes across as way too literal. It also does not take into account the disadvantages that some individual white folks have to face as well, whether they be disability-related, economic, or even social, etc., or that some individual People of Color do in fact have economic, etc. advantages. But perhaps most importantly, the term as it is now used, unfortunately also even reinforces the illusion that some white men have that they were once *all* on top and that some conspiratorial force is taking their rights and earnings away from them.(and that in turn becomes cannon fodder for Limbaugh, Breitbart, the Drudge Report, and all the other right-wing agitprop organs.)

To make a long story short, the disadvantages suffered by People of Color compared to "whites" in this country are very real. The "Privilege" theory, however, isn't working out for us; it's not at all hard to see if you take the time to observe the facts on the ground, as I & others have. And no amount of denial is going to be able to change that.

We need to come up with a better definition of the problem, if we want to truly reach out to the public at large. Because then, and only then, can we finally make a truly extraordinary, and lasting difference.

[VanillaRhapsody]

44. And there is this...out of 500....

There are six Black CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, accounting for 1.2 percent of all Fortune 500 CEOs. Merck & Co. is No. 12 in The 2013 DiversityInc Top 50 Companies for Diversity and TIAA-CREF is No. 41. CEOs in the DiversityInc Top 50 total 4 percent Black.

Kenneth C. Frazier, Merck & Co.
Roger W. Ferguson Jr., TIAA-CREF
Kenneth I. Chenault, American Express
Don Thompson, McDonald’s
Ursula M. Burns, Xerox Corporation
Clarence Otis Jr., Darden Restaurants, Inc.
There are nine Asian CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, accounting for 1.8 percent of all Fortune 500 CEOs. Microsoft is No. 44 in the DiversityInc Top 50, Medtronic is No. 17 and MasterCard is No. 5. CEOs in the DiversityInc Top 50 are 8 percent Asian.

Satya Nadella, Microsoft
Indra K. Nooyi, PepsiCo
Richard Hamada, Avnet
Omar Ishrak, Medtronic
Kevin M. Murai, Synnex
Ajay Banga, MasterCard Worldwide
Francisco D’Souza, Cognizant Technology Solutions
Ravi Saligram, OfficeMax
Sanjay Mehrotra, SanDisk
There are eight Latino CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, accounting for 1.6 percent of all Fortune 500 CEOs. ADP is No. 27 in the Fortune 500. CEOs in the DiversityInc Top 50 are 4 percent Latino.

George Paz, Express Scripts
Josue Robles, United Services Automobile Association (USAA)
Carlos Rodriguez, ADP
J. Paul Raines, GameStop
Joseph Alvarado, Commercial Metals
Robert E. Sanchez, Ryder System

Paul J. Diaz, Kindred Healthcare
Joseph Molina, Molina Healthcare
There are 23 women CEOs of Fortune 500 companies, accounting for 4.6 percent of all Fortune 500 CEOs. IBM is No. 24 in the DiversityInc Top 50. CEOs in the DiversityInc Top 50 total 2 percent women.

Mary T. Barra, General Motors
Margaret C. Whitman, HP
Virginia M. Rometty, IBM
Patricia A. Woertz, Archer Daniels Midland
Indra K. Nooyi, PepsiCo
Marillyn A. Hewson, Lockheed Martin
Ellen J. Kullman, DuPont
Irene B. Rosenfeld, Mondelez International
Phebe N. Novakovic, General Dynamics
Carol M. Meyrowitz, TJX
Ursula M. Burns, Xerox
Lynn Good, Duke Energy
Deanna M. Mulligan, Guardian Life Insurance
Sherilyn S. McCoy, Avon Products
Debra L. Reed, Sempra Energy
Denise M. Morrison, Campbell Soup
Heather Bresch, Mylan
Ilene S. Gordon, Ingredion
Jacqueline Hinman, CH2M Hill
Kathleen M. Mazzarella, Graybar Electric
Gracia C. Martore, Gannett
Maggie A. Wilderotter, Frontier Communications
Marissa A. Mayer, Yahoo!
You can also access all our lists at www.DiversityInc.com/top50.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. Tho' I'm a straight, white, male and wouldn't call my life easy...homeless and hungry poor as a kid,

I'll readily admit that it would have been a helluva lot more difficult if I was black or gay.

[VanillaRhapsody]

54. or a woman....

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

60. Yep.

[VanillaRhapsody]

63. thanks for being one of the Good Guys!

[AverageJoe90]

109. I've had some poor luck myself.

But I'm also not afraid to admit that if were a Person of Color, or Gay, or Disabled, things would very likely have been even more difficult for me than they are.

[laundry_queen]

224. I'm sorry to hear you've have it tough

but thank you for understanding the concept. I'm not sure why it's so hard for some to understand that, "I had a rough life so white male privilege doesn't exist!" is false. The correct question is: Do you think your life would've been better, worse or the same if you were black, gay or female on top of the hardships you've had to deal with.

[VanillaRhapsody]

52. and this...

Thirty years ago, women held a mere 13% of all state legislative seats in the country, today they hold 24% of 7,383 seats nationwide. Currently, 20 women serve in the US Senate and 78 serve in the US House of Representatives, while 73 women hold statewide elective office including 5 state governorships. Women chair numerous committees, they influence policy and they understand the importance of building bipartisan coalitions to offer solutions to the nation's most pressing concerns and ensure widespread change in both thought and policy on a variety of issues.

Congress:
Women currently hold 18% (78) of the seats in the 113th Congress.

Senate - women hold 20% (20) of the 100 seats in the U.S. Senate.
House - women hold 17.9% (78) of the 435 seats in the U.S. House of Representatives.
Statewide Elective Offices:
Women hold 23.4% (76) of the 320 statewide elected executive offices across the country.

Governors - 5
Lieutenant Governors - 11
Attorneys General - 8
Secretaries of State - 12
State Legislatures:
Currently 24.2% (1,788) if of the 7,383 state legislators in the nation are women. Since 1971, the number of women serving in the state legislatures has more than quintupled!

Women hold 20.8% (411) of the 1,972 state senate seats.
Women hold 25.4% (1,377) of the 5,411 state house seats.
Municipal Offices:
The number of women serving as mayors, on city councils, and as county commissioners and supervisors is on the rise. As a result of the large number of offices held at the local level, data is still being compiled, however key statistics include:

Among the 100 largest cities in the country, 12 have women mayors.
Of the 252 mayors of U.S. cities with populations of 100,000 and over, 17.6% (44) are women.
Of the 1,248 mayors of U.S. cities with populations of 30,000 and above, 17.4% (217) are women.
* This research was conducted by the Center for American Women and Politics, Eagleton Institute of Politics, Rutgers University.

[Egalitarian Thug]

53. If that's the scale, being born into money is the god-mode cheat. n/t

[VanillaRhapsody]

55. well generally White males are born into White families...

[VanillaRhapsody]

57. Yes....the George W Bush factor....

he succeeds even when he fails...

[cbdo2007]

68. True, but this doesn't mean we don't get to complain about stupid shit just like everybody else.

[Comrade Grumpy]

71. Let's say I'm in complete agreement with you. So, what?

Is there a point to this? Am I supposed to go around thinking about how privileged I am now? What is it that is desired?

[VanillaRhapsody]

75. No but the rest of us get to work harder....

I for example as a woman will make $0.77 for every dollar you do....you don't have to think about MY circumstances at all....

But I DO think of those who don't have the advantages I HAVE!

[Comrade Grumpy]

137. I was already capable of thinking about people that don't have the same advantages I do.

As well as thinking about those who have advantages I don't.

Where, oh, where, do I fit in on the privilege matrix? Such a conundrum.

[VanillaRhapsody]

154. If you are a White Male then you have the lowest difficulty setting....

just as the OP said...

if you are one...you are most likely to make more money than a Black person or a female with the exact same circumstances you have...

[The2ndWheel]

184. And the average straight white male is supposed to do what with that?

Is acknowledgement enough? Does that give women the extra 30 cents an hour? Does that make up for the history of black people in this country? Should the white guy not apply for whatever job? Turn down the offer?

[VanillaRhapsody]

310. First thing? Accept that it exists....that is a damn nice start....

How about after you accept that it exist....then you might actually help us find some answers and end this problem.....that would be a great start right there...

But first we gotta stop seeing all the denial....that is not helping

[Eleanors38]

309. What is the purpose of this thread? What are white males

supposed to do with this knowledge? Who do they admit this truth to? In what forum? In what manner? To what end?

[VanillaRhapsody]

311. First....notice how many are denying it exists at all? Well first we need more like some of the men

on DU that have been thanked profusely just for accepting the fact that the problem exists and ask to work to help solve it....but that can't happen if you just refuse to accept that it even is real...


This thread alone proves that we haven't finished the Twelve Steps first step which is admit you have a problem...

[Inkfreak]

106. Tear your clothes clothes and scream to the heavens, Comrade.

Or. Acknowledge that black people have disadvantages in our society and wonder how we can overcome that. I think erasing the massive wealth disparity in our country could really move us forward. As I suspect you do too. Cheers!

[jeff47]

133. All it's supposed to do is make you think.

When a woman complains about something that you think is "not a big deal", you might be wrong.
When a black person complains about something that you think is "not a big deal", you might be wrong.
And so on.

[Comrade Grumpy]

294. It did make me think--the first time I heard the idea about 30 years ago.

[Warren Stupidity]

285. Well let's start with you don't agree.

You are blind to the reality you live in.

[Comrade Grumpy]

295. Did I say that? No. Do you think you're telling me something new?

Maybe if it was 1974.

[Javaman]

83. I would think the 1% have the lowest difficulty level of easy...

the rest of us are on the sliding scale of hard to impossible.

[Waiting For Everyman]

89. A simplistic and useless fallacy.

I don't even want to hear "all other things being equal" because that makes it exactly meaningless, that is the point it pretends to make but expressly doesn't -- it does not address difficulty in life. Because those "other things" greatly affect difficulty, those "other things" make it definitely UNequal. Which is what the point is about. Duh. So it fails.

Not only that, it is dismissive of people, which I don't approve of.

Besides, it's an old point so why is it coming back now?

[VanillaRhapsody]

91. Only "simple" if you are White and Male...

[kwassa]

122. well, if you try to stack the argument that way, of course you win!

You don't want to hear what you don't want to hear about.

I think the fail is on your part.

[Exultant Democracy]

94. Of course born rich beat everything hands down it is the ultimate cheat code.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

96. What if that straight white male is disabled

Or morbidly obese or over 50 in the job market?

I take that person's point, but it is broad brush.

[VanillaRhapsody]

130. those are subgroups....Some women make more then men....

doesn't change the facts that women make less money then men does it?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

132. It's more complicated than "white straight males got it easy"

[VanillaRhapsody]

136. NO one is saying ALL White males have it easy....EASIER than other groups....

all things equal....

Some women make more than a man does for the same job (it could happen occasionally) but it doesn't change the fact that Women make less than men does it?

If you are a White male in hardship....Blacks and Women in the same circumstances would have it even harder.

[AverageJoe90]

168. I'm sure that's not the intent.....but unfortunately, that's how it often comes across. nt

[VanillaRhapsody]

221. Then it is just willful ignorance...

[AverageJoe90]

234. I'm afraid not.

There has been a real problem with people abusing the term "white privilege" lately. Yes, even here on DU on occasion. And that's a large part of the reason why some folks on here have issues sometimes.

[VanillaRhapsody]

237. Not abused...its a FACT!

Facts are not abused.....they just ARE.

[AverageJoe90]

240. I'm sorry to say that you missed my point.

Yes, People of Color *are* disadvantaged in this country compared to whites overall, by and large. That *is* a fact, and nobody here is denying that.

However, the term "white privilege" is, unfortunately, not working well as an educational tool. I've been "on the ground" as it were, and I've seen the results, and it's not looking too good. We need to change the terminology, and it's as simple as that.

[VanillaRhapsody]

241. NO it isn't....it IS a fact....White males are more ADVANTAGED....than any other group...

period...end of story....

there is NO denying it...

[AverageJoe90]

243. Missed the point again.

For your benefit, let me re-post what I wrote again.

Yes, People of Color *are* disadvantaged in this country compared to whites overall, by and large. That *is* a fact, and nobody here is denying that.

Which means we're basically in agreement about the core facts, btw(as in, white males do typically have the least disadvantages to have to deal with, etc.). Just not the terminology, that's all.

[VanillaRhapsody]

245. You don't have a point....

Women are disadvantaged to men TOO...

therefore White Male privilege....

[AverageJoe90]

256. "Women are disadvantaged to men TOO... " Okay, and? Doesn't disprove my point. nt

[Recursion]

274. Both of those conditions are less difficult as a straight white male

Remember, it's not "easy", just the easiest possible seeing.

[whopis01]

288. What race, gender and sexuality combination

would make life easier for that disabled or morbidly obese, or over 50 person?

[11 Bravo]

100. Today I agree with you. I might have differed the day I got my draft notice.

Had I not been a straight male, my tender young ass would never have visited the scenic A Shau Valley. However, as I said, today your statement is axiomatic.

[Rex]

101. Almost. The lowest difficulty setting is

Rich straight white male that inherited their money and never had to earn a dime. Homeless straight white male is set at high difficulty.

[Vashta Nerada]

103. It seems to me that the game setting is already on hard for poor and working class families.

Regardless of race. The only difference between the "hard" setting is the scale of hardness between poor white families and poor minority families.

The lowest difficult setting is for those born into rich families (e.g. Dubya, Rockefellers, Romneys, etc).

[CFLDem]

104. What's really sad

is that even the easiest setting ain't that easy anymore...

[Gore1FL]

105. I thought it was being a 1%er.

Not sure that as a straight White Male, I have life easier than:

Rachel Maddow
Elton John
Albert Pujols
Will.I.am

Please advise.

[NobodyHere]

111. Race and Gender baiting in one thread...

Good Job

[Harmony Blue]

117. Poor white males are always an easy target

to kick down. Meanwhile the 1% are pushing TPP and Keystone but that doesn't matter apparently....

[Sheldon Cooper]

210. How true!

For the love of god, will NO ONE think of the straight white men?? O the humanity!

[NobodyHere]

242. At least you enjoy gender and race baiting

Someone has to

[DirtyDawg]

113. Is that...

...the same thing as being born on third base and assuming you got a triple?

[Arkana]

115. So "Black Gay Female" is the hardest?

I dunno...Black Gay Female got totally nerfed in patch 2.0.

[JustAnotherGen]

123. I get it

Unfortunately - the concept is too personal for this crowd.

Laugh, give them a pat on the back, and say no offense. If I had a dollar for every time that's happened to me - or people made asshole statements to my husband not realizing he's married to a black woman -

We'd be in the 1% instead of the 4%.

[Loaded Liberal Dem]

131. HA!

Enthusiastic KR

[AngryDem001]

142. Bullshit!

This is one of the stupidest things that I have ever read! So, just because I am a pasty white guy who likes women, I automatically have the lowest difficulty setting? REALLY??

Let's see, I had a shitty childhood that came about at the hands of a drug-addicted mother, I struggle with anxiety and PTSD because of that childhood. I sometimes experience panic attacks for no reason at all.

I struggle with awkward social skills due to the aforementioned anxiety and constantly second-guess everything I say and do in unfamiliar situations.

So don't tell me I have it easy just because I am of certain race and sexual orientation!

[uppityperson]

157. Let's pretend you were black, with all the same otherwise. Would you have an easier or more difficul

difficult time overall?

Let's pretend the only difference was your sexual orientation. Or gender. Everything else was the same. Same shitty childhood, etc.

Perhaps you missed the point of this thread which was if everything else were the same, being male, hetero, and white gives you a lot more positive possibilities overall.

Welcome to DU.

[AngryDem001]

164. Are you saying that I should just shut up?

Are you saying that I should just push my shitty childhood aside and revel in the fact that I am a straight, white male?

Thanks. That makes me feel A LOT better!

[AverageJoe90]

166. I'm not really sure that that's what she meant, TBH. nt

[uppityperson]

178. No, I am not telling you to shut up. I am asking you to use your imagination and try to understand

what the Op is about.

I am asking you to imagine someone with your same shitty childhood and emotional issues you wrote about. Imagine they were black, gay, or female. Would they have an easier or more difficult time than you do, overall?

[laundry_queen]

226. No one told you to shut up

but if that's how you're going to take every disagreement, maybe DU isn't for you.

[Chathamization]

213. One could also say rich is the easiest, all else being equal, or being a US citizen is the easiest

all else being equal. I trust you can imagine the problem with a white US citizen saying to an African American US citizen, "I can admit that I'm going through life on the easiest setting by being a US citizen, why's it so hard for you to admit the same? You need to accept your privilege. Sure, you may face racism, but your life would be much more difficult if you were a undocumented black individual. We're talking about if all else is equal."

The thing is, you can take any hardship and say that not having it is the easy setting, all else being equal. Naturally, people that have other hardships will be offended, because all else is not equal. Saying that their hardship doesn't matter as much as someone else's based on an arbitrary decision will naturally bother some.

This is particularly bad when a well-off person like Scalzi dismisses economic concerns (like the white person in my example dismissing the concerns of racism brought up by the African American person). Actually, what Scalzi does is even more offensive. Scalzi: "But speaking as someone who has been at both the bottom and the top of the wealth and class spectrum here in the US, I think I have enough personal knowledge on the matter to say it belongs where I put it."

Perhaps Scalzi faced enormous poverty in his life, but he apparently went to an expensive private school for high school (The Webb Schools), which makes me doubt he was ever at the bottom. It's like the white person in the example saying, "look, I've experienced racism so I have enough personal experience to know where it belongs, and we shouldn't use it to say whether or not life is easy."

[spin]

155. One major drawback to being a straight white male is that I can't make excuses for why ...

I failed.

So I don't.

[Eleanors38]

313. Damn it, Spin. Totally inexcusable.

[WatermelonRat]

167. I usually describe it to others as being simply "the absence of discrimination"

The reason many react so strongly to the word privilege is that the academic definition and the layman's definition are frequently conflated, and the layman's definition has strong connotations of "spoiled rich kid". People who've struggled in life aren't going to take kindly to something that seems to minimize their accomplishments and ridicule their struggles. It doesn't help when they recount their troubles and receive sarcastically responses of "it's hard being a white male, isn't it?"

The video game metaphor is a good way of explaining it to a degree, but still has some flaws. If a person is at their low point in life, do you think they're going to react well to being told that they failed on easy mode?

I know that it is a popular strain of thought to scoff at any offense white people might take to the term, but remember that the reason the concept is emphasized so much is for the sake of promoting understanding.

[AverageJoe90]

176. Good points here.

A hat tip to you, fellow DUer.

[MrScorpio]

173. PIE YOW!!!! nt

[Seeking Serenity]

175. OK, let's say all straight white men acknowledge what the OP is setting out.

Then what?

[MrModerate]

180. Reduced resentment? n/t

[Seeking Serenity]

182. Reduced resentment?

On who's part?

[MrModerate]

186. On the part of straight white males . . .

Who might experience an "aha!" moment that leads them to change their point of view.

[Seeking Serenity]

189. Change what point of view?

That they are on top as compared to all others? My post/question already presumed that.

[MrModerate]

228. That they have a 'resentment entitlement' n/t

[MrModerate]

179. I still think 'privilege' is a valid concept . . .

But yours might be a bit more effective as a communication tool. Kudos.

[Captain Stern]

183. I think that's a great example.

I'm a straight, white, male and I get that I've got an advantage because of that.

I work hard (most of the time), and I've ended up being good at what I do. My parents weren't financially rich, so I pretty much had a lower middle class upbringing. I'm definitely not one of the 1%...not even close, but I'm happy with how my life has turned out. But I understand that there are plenty of folks out there that have my same work ethic and/or abilities who's lives are harder than mine for no other reason than that they aren't white or straight or male.

The video game analogy works for me. For lots of folks, there's not a chance to play the game of life on the easiest setting there is.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

185. Piece of Cake....

[Spitfire of ATJ]

188. Even better...

[Marr]

190. Then why do they have the highest suicide rate?

While I wouldn't deny that straight, white whiles enjoy certain advantages in our society, the fact that they kill themselves more often than other groups suggests that something not so great comes with it as well.

What do you suppose that is?

[lumberjack_jeff]

193. Partly because of messages like the OP's

If you're not driving a fancy car and living in a fancy house with all the advantages you have then you must really be a useless eater.

[lumberjack_jeff]

191. It's so easy that they're killing themselves due to boredom.

Straight, white privilege is real. Male privilege is not. The problem with philosophy that fits on a bumper sticker is that it's usually, this most definitely included, stupid.


Age 10-24


Age 25-64


65 and over

[dilby]

196. Probably because society put an expectation on them to be successful.

I mean life is so easy for them that if they fail society looks at them as absolute failures.

[lumberjack_jeff]

197. "Society" exemplified by moronic slogans like "straight male is the lowest difficulty setting" n/t

[Ohio Joe]

209. Suicide rate disproves male privilege? What a stupid idea...

MRA's will just pull anything out of their ass to try and prove how oppressed they are... Simply sad.

[lumberjack_jeff]

236. Apparently even being dead doesn't mitigate men's position of privilege.

I would think a guy with such a low opinion of men would have trouble with self-respect.

Or is this shtick a put-on? Performance art? Is your real name Tony Clifton?

[Ohio Joe]

244. oh please... Lets hear the explanation for this load...

How exactly does the suicide rate have any bearing on male privilege?

"I would think a guy with such a low opinion of men would have trouble with self-respect."

I don't have a low opinion of men, just MRA's... And they don't qualify as men.

[ChaoticSilly]

192. Gee, thanks for calling me a loser.

I can't manage to be a successful player on the easiest difficulty setting. I might as well just quit playing.

[linuxman]

201. What the fuck is wrong with you!!!

We put it on baby-mode and you STILL can't win!

I'd expect just a little success from someone so clearly advantaged!

Shit, man. Get it together. Take yourself down to First National Bank of Old-boys and get your check already. Then go get a job at the hetero factory (guaranteed employment for those that qualify). What could go wrong, you privileged idiot!

[HangOnKids]

238. Ouch that must have hurt you

Because it is obvious you understood the message. Boo hoo for you.

[TomClash]

202. One of the dumbest threads in the history of DU

Also racist, sexist and devoid of a hint of class analysis. Fail.

[kenny blankenship]

301. This is what is known as "outreach" and "coalition building" in today's Democratic Party

And then they wonder why they can't build durable majorities.

If I were a Republican, I would certainly bookmark this thread, or one of its many clones on this site, and come back to them whenever I was feeling down and in need of an instant pickmeup.

[indie9197]

203. In this game I assume that winning means

building a multi-million dollar fortune, having multiple vacation homes, a powerful executive position, etc.

Let's say you made another game where winning was measured by your overall happiness. Which to me means positive relationships with spouse, family, and friends, job satisfaction, decent income, good health, and fun hobbies.

I would think race would be less of an issue in this game, but this is coming from a white hetero man that sucks at your game.

[TalkingDog]

204. Here is the .gif I always attach to this essay for those that need a visual.

[LostOne4Ever]

214. I'm stealing that (nt)

[cherokeeprogressive]

205. People like you keep SLAPPING me with what I've done wrong...

>My Cherokee Grandfather married into a Caucasian family.

>I was born with a penis.

>I was born with an affinity for the opposite sex.

These are bad things. I fucking know. You don't think I fucking know? Here's how I fucking know: I've heard it ALL before, a thousand times.

Here's MY problem with your pronouncements... I can't figure out whether they're meant to shame me, or change my behavior. You see, people like you never fucking tell me what it is you want me to DO about these transgressions I've committed. You simply SLAP me with them time after time, in every different way you can come up with. You use every imaginable metaphor you can come up with to convince me I've somehow committed some kind of wrong for being born who I am. Then you neglect to tell me what you want me to do to make it better.

So today, the shameful metaphor meant to describe my life is that it's a video game, set at the lowest difficulty setting. Did that make the trash truck I drove all fucking day any easier to drive? Does that mean every dealing I have with a law enforcement officer doesn't begin, continue, and end with "Yes Sir, No Sir, Thank You Sir? Because I'll tell you this, EVERY DEALING I've ever had with a law enforcement officer has begun, continued, and ended that way. Why? Because I'm afraid of law enforcement officers. Does that mean I don't have to say "Excuse me Miss/Sir" when I need the attention of a Sales Associate in a department store or that I need to tell them Please or Thank You? Because I never fail to do that.

Keep slapping me with who I am. I doesn't even hurt any longer. My skin is thick and leathery thanks to being slapped with who I am. But for fucking goodness' sake... would you at some point PLEASE tell what it is you want me to do to right these wrongs I committed by being born who I am?

[Abq_Sarah]

269. My suggestion would be:

Don't play the game. You owe nothing to people who judge you on anything other than the content of your character. They don't know you, they don't have to live in your skin and they are in no position to claim any understanding of your life.

[lumberjack_jeff]

271. Righteous. n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

278. interesting reading. actually you did everything right.

[Puzzledtraveller]

284. ^^this^^

[Hippo_Tron]

206. Upper middle-class straight white male is a low difficulty setting, yes...

Dirt poor straight white male is a relatively high difficulty setting. Not as high as dirt poor gay black female, but still high.

White privilege and male privilege are real things. But it's hard to take anyone seriously who talks about "difficulty settings" without bringing class into the discussion.

[Warren DeMontague]

207. Not true, there are even easier settings.

Try straight, white, and dashingly good-looking.

Oh, and uh.... still with hair.

P'chow! Take that, Scalz!

[hrmjustin]

216. Lol you certainly got responses on this one Warren.

K&R

[Warren Stupidity]

222. obviously this was not a non threatening way to discuss privilege.

I'll keep searching. There must be some way to get through the defense mechanisms.

[hrmjustin]

223. Well it is an important discussion and I think you did just fine.

[cherokeeprogressive]

229. What is the point of discussing it if you're not going to discuss how you plan to correct the wrongs

you see coming from it?

[Warren Stupidity]

279. step one would be to admit that there is a problem.

[ismnotwasm]

230. They'd have to acknowledge privilege first

This is what I read here once "everybody has privilege, it's a question of what, and how much." I've opened a few closed minds in RL with that statement.

Other than that, thank you for trying

[Seeking Serenity]

233. And then what?

OK, so he acknowledges it. Then what? How does that acknowledgement help anyone not in his position?

[ismnotwasm]

253. Well, one would hope acknowledging privilege exists

Would help those so privileged to acknowledge responsibility to those who are oppressed, suffering from institutional racism, or are unfortunate in some way.

This happens all the time, only we call it charity. It's a beautiful, but superficial response in the context of what is being discussed.

A white coal miner isn't going to acknowledge white privilege to a well off black executive-- and this is part of the problem. We think too small or use anecdotal individual cases, missing the forest for the trees as it were.

What I meant merely was an opening for a dialogue that helps when you get knee-jerk bullshit responses when regarding race. Knowing the history of racism is helpful too, I know a bit because I have taken a few college courses. But I'm no expert. The expert in racism is the one who experiences it.

You have the ones who won't hear, won't listen, deliberately miss the point, think it's not a problem some of those responses are in this thread. Are they beyond reaching? Maybe. But starting somewhere, removing the self indulgent 'guilt' and saying " yeah you don't have as much as X, but your kids don't get followed in the shopping mall, or just a plain store for being black now do they? And go from there. Actual Conversations can happen.

[Adam051188]

231. this is one of the most hilariously provocative straw man OPs I've seen on this site.

Alright, I'm trying to keep an open mind here while a sizable portion of my mind screams that his is absolute bullshit because class is everything in our society. EVERYTHING. some people in our country are born with houses already paid for in their names, and they are not all straight white males believe it or not.

being a straight(some might argue this point) white male myself(if you haven't already figured this out, lol), i'll agree that i've had it easier than someone who had to grow up as a minority in our society. I've gotten away with things without getting arrested or punished severely that, statistically, a black or Hispanic male teen may have been arrested or expelled from school for. MAY HAVE BEEN is the key phrase in that sentence. the expectation of racism is as ugly as racism. the expectation of sexism is as ugly as sexism. it can very easily turn into a self fulfilling prophecy in my opinion.

[JI7]

262. "the expectation of racism is as ugly as racism. the expectation of sexism is as ugly as sexism"

that sounds like some victim blaming to me.

[NuclearDem]

267. Nope! Try again.

[malokvale77]

270. It's probably already been said...

but I'll say it again.

Born into wealth is the lowest difficulty.

They start on top and stay on top. That is privilege!

[JoeyT]

273. I heard there was a non-white person that had lots of money somewhere.

I think we can all agree your OP is debunked and you should hang your head in shame.

Oh some of these responses. Not sure what drives people to make silly-assed comparisons, but as you head down the rabbit hole it gets funnier and funnier in a not very funny at all way. OK! What if you have a white straight guy, but he's born in Texas, has one leg, sixteen missing teeth, nine fingers, three balls, a raging scat pornography addiction, and he wanted to be a Pokemon trainer when he grew up? Is HE privileged compared to Michael Jordan? I REST MY CASE!

You'd think "All else being equal, a white person is going to have an easier time in almost every situation than a black person." (Insert man/woman, straight/LGBT, etc where appropriate.) would be a pretty simple concept to grab hold of. I guess not.

[gollygee]

281. Oprah!

So far I've seen Oprah and the Obamas given as evidence that there is no white male privilege. Waiting for a post about Beyonce.

[Warren Stupidity]

293. The level of denial is amazing.

[Zynx]

275. All other things being equal, yes, this one variable makes things easier.

However, being a straight white male doesn't immediately give you a path to becoming a millionaire with a loving family and three houses.

[deathrind]

276. This thread is simply amazing...

and is a shockin example of stereotyping. But everyone is free to choose the type of lens they view the world thru.

[Zynx]

280. I disagree with that to a point. You don't have the complete freedom to do that.

I can't truly put myself in the shoes of an African American young woman who grew up in Philadelphia's economically distressed areas. I can imagine it, but I'm incapable as a white man growing up in suburban Wisconsin of truly knowing what that lens is like.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

277. Easy: talk about obstacles they *don't* face.

I think that the word "privilege" is misapplied when talking about "straight" or "white" - it's far more accurate to say that society artificially disadvantages people who aren't straight or white than to say that it artificially privileges people who are.

Make a list of the things that you think of as straight privilege or white privilege.

Now go back and look at your list. Unless you've read ahead to this next paragraph, I'm willing to bet that nearly everything on your list has a "don't" or a "without" or a similar reversal on it - bad things that don't happen to straight white people that do happen to others, not good things that do.

In a society without prejudice, straight white people wouldn't notice any difference; everyone else would, I think.

Incidentally, note that I've omitted "male" from the above list; that's intentional. I think there are a number of active positive things that do happen to men that wouldn't happen in a discrimination-free society (such as it being much easier to find a spouse willing to do more than 50% of the childcare and housework). So there, I think "privilege" is the right word. But when talking about race or orientation, "privilege" is misleading; what we see is more accurately described as e.g. non-white disprivilege.

[Iggo]

282. That's the fact, Jack.

[Puzzledtraveller]

283. yawn

[Omnith]

287. Some people complicate life.

[KamaAina]

289. Actually, it's "Straight White Male Without a Disability"

[Demeter]

290. And that's why women are angry...they are sick of seeing these men screw up

and worse yet, screw up and get rewarded for it.

[Rilgin]

296. Self Defeating Thread

I believe that a thread like this which tries to connect a concept of "white privilege" with individuals reading the thread is actually destructive to any discussion of trying to find a solution to societies problems. It is not about language or trying to find the right words to get this admission. These threads seem to want individuals to "admit" something about themselves individually because they are a member of a group without recognizing that everyone of all races and genders mostly identify with themselves as individuals and resist groups identifications. The threads make a second mistake by inherently asserting there is something wrong with such group or that such group (and thereby the individuals in the group) and that individuals in this group somehow are the source of society's problems.

These threads do no look at conscious or actual racists but actually directly address others who do not identify themselves as racist or lead pretty race free lifes. The threads try to get these other individuals to identify with a group based on their race or gender when their personal philosophies are likely to be seeking ways to not look at individuals as defined by their group.

I believe seeking such an admission from an individual to agree to a group stereotype of some other individual or group is inherently self defeating. It is not a question of finding the right words. My suggestion is that we progress more by focusing on shared human experience. This causes people to come together rather than be forced or requested or required to admit a difference that the other person seems to identify as a problem. We need to address racism sexism and problems in society but getting admissions from all members of one race or gender to self identify with negative stereotypes is as unlikely to solve our problems as trying to get minorities and women to agree to negative stereotypes that do not apply to them as well..

The rest of this post will provide a different analogy and also a personal anecdote which might help people recognize that individuals personal experiences are all different but in some ways similar and may help to understand each other's individuals issues. Ultimately, my issue is class and not race or gender and I think the solution to creating a good society is to look forward to a race and gender neutral economic system which works for all people and does not reward only 1% of us rather than look backwards to what has separated people over time.

Everything I really have to say is in the above paragraphs but I still hope you read the rest of this post.

An alternate analogy for this thread and the original post is there are 100 people in a boat. One overseer with a whip. Lets call him Donald Mitt Koch. The other 99 are rowing the boat. They are arranged in the rowing lines by a physical characteristic they were born with height. Tall people are nearer the boat sides, shorter on the aisle. Arranging by height rows the boat better for Donald Mitt Koch. The tall people get whipped but less often and less hard since they are at the end of the whip only. It is totally true that on this boat it would be better to be tall than short but threads from short people trying to get tall people to admit privilege seems pretty rediculous. The situation will not change by the 99% fighting amongst themselves and trying to find differences between their situations that cause one to be more favored. The real point should be that they are all in the boat and Donald Mitt Koch is whipping them all. Attempts to solve this situation by trying to get the tall people in this boat to say they are "privileged" misses this point.

I use tall and short above because studies also prove that Tall people are actually advantaged in society by all the factors the OP has placed in white privilege. "All things being equal" Tall people do better than short people but tall people do not think nor should they that somehow their tallness is the main problem in society.. Physical characteristics are group characteristics and do not apply to individuals who rarely self identify with group stereotypes. The concept of relative privileges, advantages and differences between people in a society that is not functioning for anyone separates people from real solutions.

Turning to racism and the problems of racism in society, it clearly can exist and is a problem we have to deal with. Like everyone else, I have seen racist people and overheard purely racist conversations but even here I think the issue is complex. I have been in group conversations of whites that dissed minorities but have also been in groups of minorities that dissed white people and Jews in particular, not knowing that I was Jewish. Racism clearly exists and is a problem and also the main problems with it are one directional in most effects against minorities but such racism is lessening amongst the younger generation. Further, focus on Racism unless obvious can itself cause problems unless it is done with understanding of complexity and without adding reverse stereotypes to the conversation which can lead to a backlash as can be seen in this thread.

At that point in this argument, people like me who fight the assumptions of this post sometimes hear an argument that "white people" or males cannot understand what minorities go through or the experience of growing up minority in America. I suggest that I can understand some of the things that are mostly included in this argument. To take one point, I sometimes hear the argument that I can never experience the fear of walking down the street as a minority. Again I dispute that based on my individualized history. I have similar experiendes. Note I say similar rather than identical. Everyone is different but I have experiences that are similar enough to give me a sense of these fears and I suspect I am not the only person to have similar experiences.

Growing up I lived in NYC. From the age of 10 to 13, I was held up on the street at knife and gunpoint about 10 times walking the streets near my home. All by older African American kids targeting the white kids. This was not police obviously so there is some difference, but my fear of the streets and awareness of risk, exactly matches every description put out by African Americans who discuss nervousness going out. Walking home, I was always hyper-aware of my surroundings and had underlying fear that bad things could and did happen to me sometimes. The targeting of me was purely racial and I was aware of that issue at the time. I was white. My being a target somewhat relates to concepts in this thread of identifying my skin color with "privilege" meaning money or something else which gave kids of one race notions they could lump all white people together. It also illustrates one of the continued problems of continuing with the notion of lumping white people with rich or dominant or privileged. If a white kid is privileged it was probably less problematic to the older mugger to target him for such crime.

My problems on the street pretty much ended when I was 14 which was lucky. However, it clearly affected my life but as a conscious philosophical matter, the main lesson I took was to object to threads which posit one race/gender as "clean" and the other as privileged or to focus on racism or sexism as a one directional problem.

As an adult, I do not have the same fears walking the streets because I am not really at much risk. It has not caused societal problems or caused me to fear African Americans in society. I am over 50 and have children so my friends pool has shrank but over time it has been pretty race neutral and my main hobbies were basketball and is playing poker which are the most racism free activities on the planet. I play with all races and colors. Color is not the main barrier that is broken. My regular game has Palestinians and Jews and there are lots of friendships. Poker tables are actually pretty interesting in that way in the development of friends of all ethnic backgrounds.

I also will note that since the age of 14, there are only two groups of people who caused the same type of street fears and both are white groups. I lived for a few weeks in a building opposite the Hells Angels in NYC. At all times walking that block home, I was hyper aware of my surroundings and had the same type of fears. The other group of people are white skin head types with aryan or nazi tattoos. Last, to some extent, I become more aware of teen-agers black or white but usually will not change my walking pattern as I will with the other groups.

My point of these anecdotes is to add to the above discussions and maybe make people who think that discussing relative disadvantages based on race in a rigged economic system is the wrong focus or that our experiences are so different that we can not understand each other. Second, I would suggest that thinking that race or sex problems are one directional or that white males do not encounter some of the same issues depending on where they are does not understand the complexity of life and race nor are they working in the right direction to bring people together in a society that treats people as individuals.

Last, I suggest that threads like this, are directed at the wrong people. I am not sure what threads like this one are trying to accomplish. Somehow, it is to get leftists to agree that racism and sexism is only one races problems and to get people who believe that class and economics are the real issues to somehow admit that some other people have it harder than themselves. Then the thread dies out as to what this admission is supposed to accomplish. The leftists in this thread are not really the oppressors of anyone and are facing their own problems dealing with an American System and Society that has gone off the tracks.

[Bonobo]

319. Best post of the thread. nt

[Politicub]

308. Garlic Tart is an awesome band name

[Eleanors38]

314. Well, Warren this argument has bern going on for generations...

and my observation has been the same approach (that you think needs challenging) had been taken since at least the 60s. Had the approach worked? If not, why not? What "challenging" ideas do you have? To what end? What will fall into place?

[Kurska]

316. Dumb, as a gay man I feel like I've had a fairly blessed life.

I grew up with money and with loving and supportive parents. I don't have any major physical or mental impairments either. Trying to break people down into a sum total of 3 variables is idiotic.

I still worked very hard and feel like I've been incredibly successful. I had no idea my homosexuality was such an albatross holding me back from achieving potential that would be possible if I had played on this "straight white male" level of difficulty.

Dumb dumb dumb dumb and I have to say an incredibly self-defeating mindset. I've faced hate and oppression, I overcame it and I became a stronger person. I'm not a perpetual victim of anything and It will never hold me back, because I won't allow any homophobic jerk to hold me back.