DU needs a national election, pretty damned quick

[demwing]

before we eat each other raw. Or not...

Is DU a place where liberals of every stripe can be a family, tangle with each other respectfully, share our thoughts and inspirations, and learn from others who share as well, or is it not?

I've been here - in one incarnation or another - since 2002-ish. I've seen some pretty nasty infighting, but the great majority of it was always couched in a "my candidate is better than your candidate" context. In the end, we were always able to unite under the common goal of defeating Republicans. Even our worst conflicts were based on who we thought was best able to achieve that goal.

Today, not so much. We can't even agree on women's rights anymore, or on what the definition of a Democrat should be. Much worse than that (or perhaps, "because" of that), we can't seem to keep ourselves from being disgustingly insensitive to each other, sometimes over amazingly innocents posts.

I don't want to spend any time reliving the Top 10 Worst Moments of DU, that's not what this post is about. Beside, if you visit DU regularly, you've seen the types of posts I'm referring to. They are characterized as trollish, mean spirited, completely devoid of empathy and compassion, and insidiously on the increase. These posts are not yet in the majority, but if we come to see them as normal, or as the standard behavior for a liberal internet forum, then these posts will one day define DU.

In my opinion, the jury system has contributed to the spread of such behavior, and has done more to hurt DU than it has to help DU. Today I alerted a post. The alert failed, and one of the responses I got back from a juror dismissed the offending post as a mere generalization, and reflected that if we hid every such generalization, there wouldn't anything left to read.

Should DU be a place where seekers find posts of a high quality (even if the post count is low), or merely a place where you find a high quantity of a trash?

Let's be clear - if you want to read volumes of negative crap, go check out Yahoo News Comments. There's plenty to read there so you'll never be bored, and there's much opportunity for incendiary bullshit.

Maybe DU does need an election pretty damned quick. It helps us focus on our real opponents - the Republicans, Tea Partyists, and Economic Libertarians. In other words, conservatives of every stripe. The problem is that we just had such an election, and the subsequent glow of DU unity faded too quickly. Can we rely on national elections every 2 years to get us through? Not when we're back to reflecting our anger inward in just a few months.

What DU really needs is a little reform. Perhaps a way to hold jurors accountable for upholding the DU terms of service? I'm not sure what the answer is, but the current process just doesn't seem to be making this place a better place.

The slow, advancing creep of the asshats will kill DU eventually, unless DUers do something to stop it.

[MineralMan]

1. There's one on the horizon. Here in Minnesota, we've

already had our precinct caucuses, and district conventions are just two weeks away. Election season is already upon us, and those who are interested are already beginning election activism for 2014.

GOTV 2014 and Beyond!

[Egalitarian Thug]

2. If there were any will to do as you say, and there's none, the first and easiest thing to do

would be to limit the number of times a person can make an OP in a single day.

One of the biggest reasons it is sometimes hard to find anything but dreck here are the dozen or so that post the same thing over and over (There's perfect example on the first page of GD right now), or that feel every thought that pops into their head deserves its own thread.

One OP per day, and I suspect you might find a dramatic rise in the quality of OPs.

[demwing]

7. You're idea is much better

than my juror twist. You limitation on OPs is preventative, not palliative (though I would either up the number to two, or limit to 1 per forum).

and yeah, I know there's no will...

[Egalitarian Thug]

8. Yeah, the clusterfuck generates clicks, lots of them. n/t

[kcr]

35. Welcome to Sockpuppet Underground.

The mass influx of socks created to get around that would probably shut the servers down. If you're going set limitations up to that extreme, then why is moderation such a bad idea?

[Coyotl]

3. The amount of trolling is a function of election proximity.

Divisiveness should be ignored for what it is.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. "Differences of opinion are what make horse races." Mark Twain

What I see here is a discussion of issues, some important, some not. Unless you think that politics is only about Party, we need to discuss the issues no matter how "divisive", "inconvenient", or "irritating" they may be. Or, even, how badly presented they may be.

When I serve on a jury, I'm always extremely reluctant to kill a post unless it's egregiously personal or ridiculous.

I've been here since 2001 and have never alerted on a post.

[demwing]

6. Let the differences over issue fly!

I would just love to see more such debates, and less of the style that dismiss politeness as secondary to policy.

Respect should be one of our fundamental policies. All of our other issues are can be linked to that single issue.

[okaawhatever]

5. I don't for one second believe that those causing the most friction are Democrats or are here to

further the Democratic party. The troll factor is much higher than some are willing to admit, IMHO.

The other side would love to see people become so frustrated they leave and never come back. They would love for us all to turn on one another over issues like gender and race.

I think part of the problem with the jury is the same. Trolls not blocking their troll friends.

One of the things that make this very obvious to me is the unnaturally high number of posts on certain issues. If you look at the national polls on what concerns democrats and compare that to the number of posts about certain subjects they're greatly skewed. Ditto the subjects you see appear on other Democratic sites and forums. At some point you have to give up the idea that the obsession with certain issues is organic. Some issues here are being artificially inflated.

[demwing]

15. I agree, there are trolls in place

with an agenda

[Bobbie Jo]

21. This. nt

[pipi_k]

28. Your opinion...

I think part of the problem with the jury is the same. Trolls not blocking their troll friends.

is wrong, according to Skinner, who has addressed this issue enough times...


and from a personal aspect, I resent being accused of being a "troll not blocking my troll friends" if I don't vote the way someone else thinks I should.

Number one, I don't have any "friends" here, troll or otherwise. I'm friendly with some people, but we are not friends.

Number two, if I'm called upon to adjudicate a post where the alerter claims to know the person is a "troll" but the post itself is OK, I will NOT vote to hide. I don't hide or keep posts based on who makes them. I vote according to whether or not the post itself is offensive to Community Standards...and I would bet that the majority of DUers feel the same way.

So please, don't call us trolls.

[demwing]

32. If DU never had a troll

then no one would ever have been tombstoned.

[wocaonimabi]

9. The problem you described is a reflection of the Democratic Party and who we are today

Is the Democratic Party a Corporate party as it pretty much is today or is it a peoples party? There is NO Third Way or Moderate or Middle of the road way anymore people need to pick a side.

DU is reflecting the current schism in the party but here on the internet the fight can publically occur and one side will win and another will lose on the internet. The people have always been ahead of the politicians but in todays day and age of basically instant news and information the people can react much fast then the politicians creating a gap that is fill by sites like DU.

Few will admit it but as I see it the Democratic Party is heading for a big spit and it is going to happen in the next 2 years and it is going to be public and ugly.

[demwing]

14. The Conservatives will break before we do

Moderate Republicans are peeling off and joining the Democratic Party, pushing us always to the right, causing the infighting we've seen here first. Eventually, we'll end up creating a far left party (or just joining up with the Greens) and America will be a 3 Party country: Tea Party, Democratic/Republican Party, and Green Party.

I can see that being a good thing...

[wocaonimabi]

17. As much as I would like to see multiple parties the implementation of our current

form of government only works with 2 parties. Can and should it change, yes it needs to or it will fail or if we stay on the current track America will become a fascist governemnt with nukes. Yeah team.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. One major flaw with your post.

Perhaps a way to hold jurors accountable for upholding the DU terms of service?

Juries are not responsible for TOS, only community standards (CS). Confusing, huh? I asked Skinner about this a looooong time ago in the now defunct Meta. This is how it breaks down:

Hosts are responsible for SOP violations/concerns.
Juries are responsible for CS issues.
The administrators are responsible for TOS issues.

I do agree, the jury system is a mess and there are changes need to be looked into in order to, well, restore some order.

[demwing]

16. And if the Admins take a hands off approach

then the hosts and juries run the place

[davidpdx]

11. An election or a frontal lobtotomy

[Katashi_itto]

12. I stopped taking DU seriously a while back. It's now a cesspool for a few special interest groups

to rant and bully others about the purity of that group's views.

[demwing]

13. Despite it all, I have always taken DU seriously

It has great potential as a center for grass-roots organizing.

[bemildred]

36. I take DU seriously, but not as an organizing tool.

For that you need access control, and we only do that after the fact, and to obvious cases.

You want grass roots organizing, you need something else, your own web site. There are many issue and organizing forums here, they work fine, but remain what they are. People are not attracted here to organize, they come here for news and to argue and discuss. If we were an organizing tool, we'd be infiltrated and discredited. It's tried all the time, but it it doesn't work because that is not what we are here, DU isn't something you can infiltrate or discredit, because we don't try to keep anybody out and our institutional goals are all cliches.

You get kicked out here for misbehaving, not for hanging around to watch the show. We aren't secret, we aren't even confidential. So we are also not a place to plot strategy or tactics, even if you are completely honest, you don't want your opponents knowing what you are up to.

We have had issues many times with little groups here who felt the need to set up separate "safe" places for them to discuss issues or plot strategy to influence us here, and that is because you will NOT control the debate here, and you can't make plans with all that noise. We have a few taboos, but there is damn little I have not seen posted here, esp. when it comes to politics.

And that is why we have minders here. They basically try to influence what we talk about, the acceptable terms of debate, in various ways.

[nilesobek]

18. DU is the greatest.

I'm pretty new here and had a post hidden in a 4-2 vote. Welly welly well. After some reflection and self criticism, I decided that I shouldn't be running anything and that it was a correct decision by the jury. After all, its everyone's board and my post got voted down.

I totally agree with some points of the OP. We've got to stick together, help each other and get as many Democratic victories in 2014 as we can. The Democratic Party is on a nice roll right now and if we let wedge issues interfere with our solidarity then the Republicans will smell blood in the water.

[demwing]

24. and a big welcome to DU, nilesobek! /nt

[bemildred]

19. Free speech is not about playing pattycake together.

It's about duking it out. We have rules, but not many, and that is why the place rocks. You need a hide like a rhinocerous and an active interest in what going on in the world and the nation to survive and prosper on DU. But if you do, you will become expert at recognizing bullshit when you see it, and you will hear every opinion there is.

[demwing]

23. And free speech is not a license to be assinine

I think that the reason DU rocks, when it does, is because of the quality of the people and ideas found here. The detractors and the trolls are in the minority, but on the rise.

Duking it out is one thing, getting personal is another.

[bemildred]

26. Yeah, that is exactly what it is, a license to ignore name calling and say what you think. nt

[oldhippie]

20. Election? What is a national election?

Never heard of such a thing.

Do you believe DU is a democracy?

[demwing]

22. I'm sorry, did you read past the Subject Line?

I clearly mentioned that DU pulls together during times of a national election

[oldhippie]

29. That's what I thought, you didn't get it.

There is no such thing as a "national election" in the US. They are all State or local govt elections. All of the elections to federal offices are state elections, including that for President. Each state elects a set of Electors to send to the Electoral College.

Yes, it's a nit. But it is one of my pet peeves about the poor civics education in this country. We have no Natioal Elections.

[demwing]

31. Yeah, that's picking nits... :)

Really, when we talk about "National Elections," we're talking about elections for national office...US House, US Senate, and US President.

[cyberswede]

25. We need to survive primary season first...

I remember last time...

(otherwise, I like your post)

[demwing]

33. cheers!

[stevenleser]

34. And we can already see it's going to be bloody.

No one is emerging to challenge Hillary. But that won't stop some here from fighting and screaming bloody murder right up until election day. And the day after she is elected, they will start complaining about every decision she makes.

This is not a hard prediction to make, given what we have seen since the day after election day in 2008.

[JustAnotherGen]

27. I don't know

Are they trolls - or they really the 'new left'? I.E. Former Republican aging white men who want to smoke pot in privacy (absolute privacy). Someone up thread said two years -

I say 10. And it's not going to just be at DU. I think DU is a 'symptom' - regardless of what national polls say. First the Republican Party implodes. Then the Democratic. And whose going to come after the 'others' from the Democratic Party? Republicans.

I think we are at the beginning of a huge political shift in America. I was always an outsider and an 'other' to the enemy. But when the enemy is within -and I can see how their mind works and the language they use to influence? I need to see DU for the wondrous gift it is. If I understand how they think - I can combat them when they fully finally turn on me.

And turn on me - and others like me - they most certainly will . . .

[rrneck]

30. Don't sweat it.

Watching sausage being made is always icky. DU is sort of an unofficial think tank. People are going to butt heads here, that's just how it works. Everybody wants the same thing, but we differ on how to go about getting it.

[woo me with science]

37. No, the real enemy, the most dangerous and malignant enemy we face,

is corporatism. Corporatism has infested both major political parties, which is why the battle is no longer as simple as we are urged to believe.

If we have learned anything the past five years, it is that simply electing Democrats is not enough. We must fight the the cancer of corporate power and money, corporate lies, and corporate propaganda driving policy and affecting elections in our own party as well as in the Republican party.

[Iggo]

38. lol...you ain't kiddin'.