Men and suicide. Chewed up and spit out.

[Bonobo]

Last edited Sun Feb 23, 2014, 11:39 PM - Edit history (1)

I have lost family and multiple friends to suicide. All have been men and the suicide statistics show that men represent the majority of suicide victims.

How do we continue to ignore the significance of this fact? When combined with the imbalance in incarceration rates, it is difficult to not conclude that men as a whole are chewed up and spit out in a way that reflects a large social problem.

Both men and women face struggles unique to their gender (I am not referring to suicide here btw). Paying attention to one does not mean we cannot or should not also pay attention to the other.

[NuclearDem]

1. I'm not ignoring it.

[ismnotwasm]

2. Men are not supported emotionally

They are also constrained by false masculinities----such as admitting and seeking help for depression. This may be slowly changing, but far too many men feel they lose manliness by admitting perfectly normal emotions such as fear, or shame, or profound sadness. It's very destructive. Society hasn't changed expectations for men either.
L
I'd have to look but it seems there are studies showing that men tend to isolate emotionally

[mike_c]

5. agreed....

Emotional isolation leads many of us to loss of empathy to the point of tunnel vision. Development of interpersonal empathy should be as important a developmental goal as education generally, IMO.

[YoungDemCA]

39. Interpersonal empathy should be a major part of education

[YoungDemCA]

28. +1000

The amount of pressure men put on themselves-and each other-is unbearable, and so many refuse to seek the help they need for fear of being "weak" or "emotional."

[Neoma]

171. Damn those Ancient Greeks.

If they weren't so obsessed with reason vs. emotion maybe things would be different in western society today.

[democratisphere]

3. Men need to have a 'purpose' which is most often manifested in their job.

Taking away their job, takes away their 'purpose'. Just one more reason we need to put this country back to work.

[hunter]

7. Just "Men???"

I think not.

Fortunately in my life I've never been short of "purpose." (Of means, yes, sometimes...)

I was a stay at home dad. My adult kids are excellent, thanks. Success!

But I don't think there's any difference between men and women in that we all want to contribute to a community however we can. Humans are social creatures. In that respect paid jobs, raising kids, LGBT activism and other civil rights work, whatever contributes to a community of humans, we are all the same.

The only outsiders are the sociopaths, the racists, the misogynists, the fundamentalists, the whole lot of them. It's a bloody damned shame so many of them rise to positions of political power in the society we now suffer.

[laundry_queen]

4. I looked it up.

Women have a higher rate of attempted suicide and a higher rate of suicidal thoughts. Men are more likely to (I can't believe they use this euphemism) "complete" a suicide because they generally use different methods. Men are more likely to use a firearm whereas women are more likely to use pills (which are less lethal).

Suicide is an issue for everyone...it should not be used to drive a wedge between genders.

[pinboy3niner]

6. That was my thought, too

Suicide is hardly an issue exclusive to men just because they have higher "completion" rates.

[LumosMaxima]

8. This is what I was going to say . . . thanks. nt

[Bonobo]

16. I cannot see how my OP could be accused of

"Driving a wedge".

Is it "driving a wedge" when body image issues in girls are brought up?

[YoungDemCA]

29. False equivalence is false

nt

[ismnotwasm]

32. I don't think you are trying to do that

Last edited Mon Feb 24, 2014, 12:44 AM - Edit history (1)

This not a men vs. women issue. There are differences.

This article is a couple of years old, and not an in- depth look, but it does address certain factors

The Gender Inequality Of Suicide: Why Are Men At Such High Risk?

Though mental health issues are less taboo than they were in the past, and certainly more people are getting treated for them (at least pharmaceutically), the suicide rate is still high – especially for men. The World Health Organization estimates that about one million people take their own lives each year, and this is not counting those who attempt it but are not “successful.” In just about every country, men commit suicide more frequently than women, which is intriguing since women typically have higher (at least, reported) rates of mental health disorders like depression. A new study looked at the factors that might explain why certain groups of men are so much more likely than women to take their own lives.
Certainly suicide is linked to mental health problems like depression and anxiety – it almost has to occur in their presence – but there are other factors involved. And it is these external factors that, according to the researchers, need some attention. The new study was commissioned by the organization Samaritans, and carried out by a team of researchers in Great Britain.

One of the risk factors for suicide in men seems to be middle age. Historically, younger men were at greater risk than older ones, but this has changed in recent decades. Now, middle-aged men experience the lowest levels of well-being and the highest suicide rates (especially if they are of lower socioeconomic class; more on this later). In fact, well-being for both sexes follows a U-shaped curve, with well-being bottoming out in the middle years.

For middle-aged men today, being in between two very different generations (“the prewar ‘silent’ and the post-war ‘me’ generation”) may make them feel more stuck. “Men currently in their mid-years are the ‘buffer’ generation – caught between the traditional silent, strong, austere masculinity of their fathers and the more progressive, open and individualistic generation of their sons. They do not know which of these ways of life and masculine cultures to follow.”

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwalton/2012/09/24/the-gender-inequality-of-suicide-why-are-men-at-such-high-risk/

[pinboy3niner]

37. The OP casts suicide as a gender issue, when clearly it is not

It states that, for men, suicide is a struggle "unique to their gender." That's where the OP's problem lies.

[Bonobo]

40. No, it does not. Not at all. Nt

[Raine1967]

97. Thank you. eom.

[sibelian]

194. It is.

In that, you know, it tends to succeed.

[lumberjack_jeff]

203. Kernel of truth? Men don't "struggle" with suicide, they just do it.

So, although both men and women may struggle with suicide, 80% of those who succeed are men.

I find it hard to believe that the 7th leading cause of death in men can't be discussed because it risks offending feminists.

[laundry_queen]

43. The history

of your posting matters here. I am perfectly willing to discuss men's issues - there are many of them. The one that irks me the most is education. However, someone once said timing is everything. When one posts about men's issues IN RESPONSE to a large amount of postings on women's issues, then it's a form of invalidation. Invalidation is disrespectful, in my opinion. Someone who truly wanted a discussion on these issues would wait until some of the gender posts died down so that we could have a constructive conversation. At this point, I question your motives and that's where the 'driving a wedge' came from, especially once I did a little research on the topic. Your post came across, to me, as disingenuous. But I might be wrong...wouldn't be the first time. It's just how I perceive it.

[closeupready]

100. +1, from a man.

[pinboy3niner]

109. +2. nt

[joshcryer]

148. "invalidation"

Thanks. I've been struggling to figure out how to nail down these "rebuttal" responses to the ongoing GD thing (which I've mostly stayed out of). Invalidation is precisely what it feels like. It's not relevant to the discussion.

I have a friend who has bad cramps once a month and we joke about this sort of thing and she jokes about wanting to be a guy and I pointed out we die younger, have higher rates of suicide, etc, and she joked back "worth it!" It just made me appreciate, in the joking banter, that I really can't understand the "woman experience" any more than the reverse, so such statistics, used in debate, are irrelevant. Immaterial deflections, invalidation.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

62. From looking up your posts, you appear to enjoy attempting to create wedges

But that might be my interpretation of your posts.

[lumberjack_jeff]

127. Maybe you should spend more effort arguing points than researching posters. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

129. I do both. It's very informative to look up post history. I've seen yours.

It told me everything I needed to know, from the horse's own mouth, so to speak.

[lumberjack_jeff]

132. I'm happy for you that the google has told you everything you needed to know.

I have always had higher aspirations. C'est la vie.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

134. Look, I have to trust that your words describe what you think. And so I do.

You don't have a different opinion each day, do you? Nope, I think you don't.

[sabrina 1]

206. I was told today that my opinion as a woman doesn't belong here. Would you call

that 'driving a wedge'? I, as a feminist, although I know that term has been appropriated as the sole property of those who claim to speak for women on DU, welcome all opinions and if someone appears to be 'deceptive' which is subjective imo, maybe there's a reason why they feel the need to point out things they feel are important? I prefer to acknowledge that sometimes in our zeal to promote our own issues, we may be stepping on others which might explain why women's issues are rarely discussed rationally here on DU and most women, except for a few like me who do believe I have a right to my OWN opinions, don't bother anymore.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

207. What was the context?

Who said that?

[Ohio Joe]

23. Our 'mens' Group will stoop to any depths to try and prove they are oppressed

Being deceptive about about something like suicide is par for them.

[Bonobo]

27. Ugly accusation.

I lost a good friend a few months ago and your response is very ugly.

[YoungDemCA]

30. I'm sorry for your loss.

[Ohio Joe]

44. That is a shame...

I've lost friends to suicide as well... A few years back, I posted the story about a girl I knew who committed suicide... I think I put it in the lounge. About a year and a half ago, one of my best friends laid down in front of a train... I'm pretty sure I posted about that as well when it happened. So I feel your pain.

I don't think it changes that the way you put up the statistics is deceptive... And it is not the first time I've seen the 'mens' Group use this (as well as others) deceptive statistic to try and show men are the truly oppressed. I find THAT ugly.

[Bonobo]

45. I am an individual.

Please treat me as such.

[Ohio Joe]

50. You are the company you keep...

If you don't like the association perhaps you should not associate.

[Bonobo]

53. You have to justify poor behavior?

Sorry but that is not right.

[Ohio Joe]

60. I'm not justifying anything... I'm giving you the fact

You want to run with the 'men' that are so desperately trying to show they are oppressed, you will be lumped in with them.

IMO, being deceptive in an effort to keep women from gaining equality is both 'poor behavior' and 'not right'.

[Violet_Crumble]

153. I used to see the same smearing by association aimed at HoF...

Back when I was a host there, I lost count of the folk who'd attack anyone who'd posted in there and associate them with Iverglas as though we were all the one person with the same opinion. I don't like seeing you do the exact same thing now to anyone who posts in the Men's Group. I've posted in there a few times, mainly in the one thread, and as a DUer I quite like told me a few days ago, I have a non-antagonistic relationship with regulars in that group. I know from reading every now and again that there's at least two DUers I think very highly of who post in there reasonably regularly.

If posting a few times in the Men's Group means I'm going to be broadbrushed in the same way I was when I was a host of HoF, then by all means, call me a misogynist or MRA or whatever, because I don't mind having been associated with either group and I'll post in whatever group I want to (and am welcome in) without worrying about folks who want to try to guilt people into not participating in certain groups...

[Ohio Joe]

173. I think when two Hosts try to make the same bullshit claim...

It is ok to associate them. And looking and what I sadi:

"I don't think it changes that the way you put up the statistics is deceptive... And it is not the first time I've seen the 'mens' Group use this (as well as others) deceptive statistic to try and show men are the truly oppressed. I find THAT ugly."

I did leave out the word 'Hosts'... Which is what I meant. I had this exact same bad argument used the other day by another Host... Who tries to do it again with me down thread, and that is what I was referring to... What I should have (and thought I did) type was:

I don't think it changes that the way you put up the statistics is deceptive... And it is not the first time I've seen the 'mens' Group Hosts use this (as well as others) deceptive statistic to try and show men are the truly oppressed. I find THAT ugly.

Bottom line, you are correct... associating people because they post in them same Group is wrong. I do think associating people who make the same deceptive claim to be fine though. I will leave my post above un-edited, anyone bothering to read that far will also see this post.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

66. Then your post clearly needed to be about that loss, not one to invent a gender issue

I suggest you re-read your original posts in advance and check for attempts to create gender issues in them, then remove those attempts, and re-write the posts before you actually click on "POST." It might help you avoid being accused of such things, if that's not your intent at all. Check yourself.

[lumberjack_jeff]

76. It's an issue that transcends an anecdote...

... even if most of us men can point to examples of other men we know.

In my case, I knew two 8th graders who killed themselves last year.

If a disruptive poster feels such a great compulsion to be an asshole that he's willing to denigrate the problem of suicide, there's little that can be done to slow him down.

By a factor of five, suicide is a male problem.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

101. Once again, you're discussing actual success of suicide, NOT attempts.

Women attempt suicide far more than men do. Again, men use different, more violent methods. Again, women do not use such violent methods of suicide. The original poster is (once again) attempting to create a gender issue out of something which isn't.

[lumberjack_jeff]

103. I think the graph I posted makes it a pretty unambiguously gendered issue. n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

110. Again, the discussion is suicide. Suicide is attempted more by women.

No matter how much you'd like to whine about how women have it better, more women attempt suicide than men. I suggest you cease and desist attempting to make this a gender issue (as usual).

[lumberjack_jeff]

114. Your suggestion is noted.

And rejected.

And as far as "whining" goes... the social mores that your choice of words are demonstrative of is one of the reasons that suicide is primarily a phenomenon affecting men.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

115. Then carry on with your right-wing-based disdain for women. I've noted your ID

And am aware of your posts and what your true ideology really is.

[lumberjack_jeff]

122. Be sure to include this in my dossier

[Sarah Ibarruri]

124. LOL! Your right wing attitude is all-pervasive. nt

[Major Nikon]

172. Sometimes the wind blows in farts from the left

Not sayin' you, but just sayin'

[Sarah Ibarruri]

179. Actually, no. And the list of right wingers in here is very clear to too many of us.

Too many.

[Major Nikon]

191. One is too many

There are plenty of those here on DU that don't walk lock step with me ideologically. That doesn't mean I think they are right wing. The only thing required of DUers is that they vote for Democrats. I'm pretty sure Jeff does. If you have evidence he doesn't you should offer it. If not, it appears as if you are engaging in petty defammation in a veiled attempt to somehow win an argument over facts, as if such a thing were even possible.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

209. Fine, but there are definitely right wingers in here, and I had ample proof of that

Names, posts, websites, etc. And they were quite active posting in DU. If someone consistently is behaving in a way or expressing him/herself in a way that appears right wing, I don't care how many lib hats that person might put on, that person is right wing. There's no such thing as a right wing lib.

[lumberjack_jeff]

210. Then provide a link.

Since I'm the one you're accusing of being a right wing mole, I'd appreciate your evidence.

The kind of accusations you're tossing about are already a callout, so you can't hide behind that.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

211. I did this research on my own a few years ago when I suspected this

If you're interested, do your own research. I'm not your assistant, your secretary, or your personal valet. As I posted before, there's no such thing as a right wing lib. These days I have made it considerably easier for myself than having to do research: If you talk the talk and walk the walk of a right winger, you are a right winger.

[lumberjack_jeff]

213. You're not my secretary, you're my accuser.

Put up or shut up.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

220. Prove you're not. nt

[NCTraveler]

229. Results of alert

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

Sarah is accusing Jeff of being a right wing troll with a history of posting on right wing message boards. She refuses to provide evidence or retract the accusation. This kind of behavior makes DU suck.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Mon Feb 24, 2014, 07:51 PM, and the Jury voted 1-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Doesn't take a huge leap in logic to see where Sarah is coming from.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Are you kidding me? This poster is responding to someone who just said: "You're not my secretary, you're my accuser.

Put up or shut up." and this post is the one alerted. I intend to alert on the alerter. Shame
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I probably get this a lot, but I am always happy to prove I am not. Not that any sort of proof will be sufficient for some.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

[Sarah Ibarruri]

233. Thank you. I figured he'd take it there. nt

[TDale313]

149. More women attempt suicide than men.

As has been repeatedly pointed out. So clearly it is *not* an issue that primarily or solely affects men. It's a huge issue for both men and women- unless you want to claim that attempting suicide doesn't indicate something being seriously wrong? Or that somehow it doesn't matter because the person didn't actually succeed in killing themselves?

It seems like this is one issue we should be able to set aside the gender wars and focus on getting as many people as we can as much help as possible? Or is that asking too much?

[Major Nikon]

175. If men are more successful at it by a 5-1 margin, then the effect is disparate

Which makes it a gender issue and is why it's studied as a gender issue. If men are dying at 5 times the rate, the claim that it doesn't primarily affect men is a real head scratcher. Nobody is claiming it solely affects men.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide

[Soundman]

180. Got any proof to go with the claim? N/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

181. Sure! It's on the Internet. What's surprising is that you haven't googled it yet. nt

[Soundman]

182. Why? I know all about suicide.

I have had two unsuccessful attempts and truly hope the third time will be the charm. Actually I don't know any woman personally who have committed suicide or attempted it. Oops, take that back. I heard that a gal I used to know did. But I don't know if it's true. I have known several (more than several) men who have committed suicide. As a matter of fact, we just lost another one about a month ago.

Anyway, I didn't make the claim. I have seen solid info to back up the op, but haven't seen any from you.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

183. I'm sorry, Soundman. I don't know what your situation is, and I'm very sorry that you have

gone through so much. I had a (female) friend in Spain who committed suicide by jumping out of a window. It was seen later that she had been trying to collect tranquilizers, and could not collect enough. It's beyond awful.

Honestly, I doubt this is the venue for you - a discussion on who attempts suicide more, and who is most successful or not, and I'm sorry to say that to you, because I know you're suffering.

That said, are you getting any help, or are you completely closed off and shut down on receiving any help at all?

[Soundman]

186. Actually I believe it is the

Feminist "the radicals" not the had working era types that many owe more than they care to acknowledge. It's a long, long story. But my mother was a man hating woman who adressed me as the little bastard for most of my life. She let unspeakable things happen to me at a young age when I was too young to know any better. Her mother was much the same way. I watched my mother put three men in the grave while I was growing up. So I guess I have never bought into the woman as the weaker sex crap, just not my experience.

My earliest memory of my dad is him (for lack of a better term) ass fucking me. I was probably 4 or 5. I can't remember for sure, but I know we moved when I was six and it only happened once after we moved. He later committed suicide himself, well maybe he did. I will never know. I was shuffled out of a bedroom window in the middle of the night and the next day I was told he was dead. The rest of my family hated me because I would never divulge that I was abused. Perhaps if they would have told me what abuse was I might have been better able to explain it to them. But the weirdest thing about it is. He told me he loved me the whole time. He didn't bend me over and tell me take it. He was somewhat gental even during my screams from pain he never raised his voice or threatened me. So to say the least, I didn't make a good witness.

Anyway I digress. Talking about suicide doesn't really affect me. And my present reasoning has nothing to do with the aforementioned. If you weren't really close to me and you found out I'd did, you would be gobsmacked. I just don't present that way to the uninformed. I seen very happy and am probably blessed to be above average in most ways one would measure another. I smile a lot, and I am very considerate of others in person. I go out of my way to help those less fortunate. And in general try to leave the smallest wake possible in life. But sometimes I do suffer from anger issues at times, and most likely they are deeply rooted and caused by triggers.

On a high note though. I have finally found the ignore feature here and added 15 or so people to it today and one group. I quickly noticed this became a much better place for me.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

202. Hi again Soundman

I can’t imagine how mentally disturbed your father must’ve been, and how it must've affected you, even if he wasn’t beating you. I often think of all those kids who through unfortunate circumstances, found themselves in horrible situations. It’s unfair that some children in life are exposed to some of the most horrific situations imaginable. The very idea that anyone at all can have children without permission, and that children are placed just about anywhere without permission, is something that makes my skin crawl. Regardless of whether or not your father did this while beating you, or while being "nice," is less important than how it affected you subconsciously. I hope you find something to quiet and soothe your soul. I hope there are many things that thrill you – music, people, etc., so that you can focus on those and maybe keep at bay whatever it is that comes out once in a while and makes you rage. Blessings to you, and be kind to others.

That said, I *am* without a doubt one of those radical feminists you talk about. I’m Latin, white, the grandchild of 4 grandparents born in Spain. Was a teacher and am now a paralegal. I’ve been married (and divorced) 4 times - 3 to the same guy. I still have a friendship with my first ex. My second husband passed away. His death crushed my soul, and depressed me for a very long time. I have no kids because I wanted no kids. I just couldn’t see myself raising kids, when there is so much (too much) to do in life. Even though I chose not to have kids, my greatest passion is my family – my mom and dad of blessed memory (who just passed in November 2013 and whom I’m mourning even now), my sister and brother, and all extended family. They are part of my heart and I made sure and make sure to keep in contact with them as much as possible. Friends are friends, but nothing beats family (for me). Second to family, is my focus on the suffering of the poor and the homeless, and fighting against the disdain with which right wingers treat them and refer to them. I love alternative rock, punk rock, and an eclectic selection of international music. I adore art (am doing a pastel now – quite badly), hate working out but do it anyway so I don’t end up overweight, and nothing to me feels better than sitting with someone at Starbucks having a regular decaf and talking about everything in life. Why do I say these things? Because I want you to realize that I'm a human being, and I do NOT have feminist horns on my head. However, when I say I do NOT like someone flashing in my face pictures of naked females degrading themselves, I do mean it. However, it doesn’t mean I’m a dragon in a lair, ready to bite someone's head off. I’m simply a human being fighting for the respect for women (of which I am one), and to my last breath I’ll never stop doing that.

Make sense?

[Soundman]

240. Hello to you again,

Thanks for taking the time and thought to reply and open up about your own situation. Trust me, what my father did was nothing compared to my mother. Imagine growing up in a house where you never ever heard the words I love you. I heard I wish you were dead a lot, little bastard a lot. I had absolutely no parental direction or parental education. Most of the education I learned came from men's bathrooms at the bars where I was more or less raised. Which has led to some really hard times for me as an adult. Anyway I was pretty much left to fend for myself. You will probably find this hard to believe but my mom accused me of having fleas and giving them to her beloved dogs. So she fumigated my bed, didn't tell me and it almost killed me. This happened in a nice neat new house that didn't reveal even a smidge of the truth.

Somewhere around 14 or 15 I discovered drugs and that has brought about another set of issues. I have been a weed smoker since childhood. I'm not a blaze all day to keep the evil thoughts away kinda person. More like toke and reflect on what makes people tick kinda person. Of course that has led to a life as a second class citizen. Yeah, I have gone long periods as an adult and not smoked and those were the worst years of my adult life. My last time was about ten years ago, I quit for almost 60 days to pass a pre employment physical. Since I can't really use a public restroom. I drank almost a gallon of water to be sure I would have to go no matter what. Well I got detained for longer than I thought I would at my future employers office getting fitted for my uniform. When I got to the place I had to go so bad I was pacing the floor and asking if I could just get the test over with. Finally I couldn't wait anymore and had to go, so I went just enough to relieve the pain. And if you are a guy (at least for me) it is almost impossible to just go a little, but somehow I managed. Anyway, my result came back dilute, so my employer terminated me before I started as they stated they viewed that the same as a positive. A quick check and sure enough ohio law doesn't say they can't see it that way. So I have been self employed ever since. I do okay but I'm only living up to about ten percent of my potential.

Any way I could go on and on. About the poor pitiful me thing. I'm fine, really. I just don't love life. If there were a switch on the wall that said it's over. I wouldn't hesitate to walk over and flip it.

I can only relate a little about losing a spouse. A year ago my wife was diagnosed with what we thought at the time was going to be terminal cancer. Thankfully, hmm maybe that's a misnomer, we found out that she had been misdiagnosed for years and the cancer was not nearly as fast growing as they thought. She is presently, Neod. It's been a long year and the treatments have brought about a whole other set of life changes.

Okay if you managed to wade through that pile of dung. The feminist thing. When I was young orgies were a pretty common part of my life. When I was a practicing musician sex came pretty easy. Then came the world of sexual harassment. I didn't have any problem adapting to it at all. And had particular disdain for a fellow employee who regularly harassed our receptionist. Of course all the while I was being hit on by my superior. Almost seven years of being sexually harassed by my gay coworker/supervisor, lol. Oh, the stories I could tell! Anyway, I never had issue with the we had sex yesterday but not today or ever again type thing. No means no and all that. As I said earlier, I had a fuck with me I will murder you mother and grandmother and I'm not speaking figuratively, I mean litterally. So I have never seen women as a weaker sex, far from it. But the mixed messages I see regularly do perplex me. Let me tell you one of probably a thousand stories regarding this perplexing thing. At a show about two months ago, I'm standing at a table during break and comment that the crowd was good looking. And the person next to me says yeah and I would fuck them all. You might think it was a guy that would say something like that, but it was a band members wife, go figure. So for some reason I am not sure why. I get upset when over the top in your face sort of people (feminists or not) get in my face and tell me how to live when there is a whole set of people saying something completely different. I guess until I see a united front from the female side of the issue I will continue to feel the way I do, confused. When it comes to equal rights I get the feeling that the heavy lifting has been done, the dam has been built. I get sick and tired of hearing people complain that the water down stream from the dam isn't drying up fast enough. Stupid analogy I know, but it is the best one that comes to mind at this time.

Again thanks for the reply and my best wishes to you and yours now, and in the future.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

243. Blessings coming your way

From reading what you wrote, it’s clear to me that your parents were mentally ill. So scary to think of you growing up with parents that seriously needed to be in a mental institution or in the least, heavily medicated, and you there, trying to cope with it all as a child. I’m surprised you turned out well enough to express yourself so articulately, and to be so insightful. There must’ve been great strength in you, or perhaps you met someone really good along your path in life who helped you some way. You should do some writing, start a blog or something, maybe about precisely the sort of things you wrote here about, so others could benefit and perhaps participate. Some way to release your demons and get your angels in action, you know? We all need that, you know.

Aerobic exercise helps too. I find that when I do aerobic exercise (not too strenuous) it makes me feel better somehow.

Weed? That’s not altogether bad, and I think it need to be legalized. I’m not so sure that I’d give it to a child, but I know that the autistic community is pushing hard to get it legalized because it has some qualities that benefit autistic children.

That’s terrible about your wife having been diagnosed, but luckily it wasn’t what they had wrongly predicted.

Blessings to you.

[renate]

251. there aren't words for me to express how sorry I am that you had to endure that

Love and security are what children want and need more than anything else besides food and water... I can't imagine how painful your childhood was. It breaks my heart just to read about it; how indescribably awful it must have been to endure it and live it for years with no escape. There just aren't words for how much I wish I could take that pain away. It makes me so sad and so angry to think of a child being treated that way, especially by the people who should have protected you, and to realize that you are still living with that pain and those memories as an adult. I'm so sorry.

[myrna minx]

208. I can't even imagine what you've been through.

I'm so sorry that any of what you've had to endure has happened to you.

[HappyMe]

184. ....

Last week my husband got word that 2 of his male high school classmates had killed themselves.

[Soundman]

188. Two? Wow

Was it related in any way? Did they hive a reason? We just lost a family friend to suicide very recently. It was what I would call a situational suicide. The poor guy made a mistake and decided he needed to pay with his life. The sad part about suicide is it always leaves people with unanswered questions and guilt. In this case I am hoping it doesn't claim another life as the person who bailed them out feels responsible.

[HappyMe]

189. They weren't related in any way.

One was because his wife cheated and wanted a divorce. The other guy - nobody knows.

My husband was pretty shocked at the news. Since there were only 80 kids in his graduating class (super small town in WI) everybody knew everybody.

It's very sad. I can understand how deep and dark that hole feels when you are in it. I have never considered it though.

People left behind feel bad and terrible because you always think that there's something that they could have done to prevent it. Maybe, maybe not.

I hope the person that bailed him out has some support.

[sibelian]

192. Whining, huh?

These People are DEAD, Sarah.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

205. The living ones whining about how men are more successful at doing it

and how it's so so awful that men are more successful at it, are not dead at all, so spare us the BS.

[HappyMe]

212. So you don't consider it awful that men are more successful

at killing themselves? Guys being in such a horrible, dark place that they see death as the only solution - that's not awful?

You consider this issue a dead body type contest?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

222. Women being in such a horrible, dark place that they see death as the only solution - that's not

awful?

Stop making it a contest. But since you do, AGAIN (for the millionth time) women attempt suicide at a FAR HIGHER RATE than men.

[HappyMe]

226. I never said that that it wasn't awful.

I am not making it a contest. I am amazed however, that no matter the issue at hand, people will show up and turn it into a gender war.

Why is it required that in a thread about men's suicide, somebody has to show up and scream about women's suicide rates? Nobody is denying that. Instead of discussing causes and the mental health situation it turns into this arguing.

I'm sure there are people here that have male family and friends that have killed themselves. Maybe those people would have liked to share their experiences but didn't for fear of being verbally smacked upside the head with 'but women attempt it at a FAR HIGHER RATE'. Suicide for either gender is shattering to those left behind. I believe it can be discussed, but apparently not on DU.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

228. This doesn't belong being turned into a: men have it worse, women have it better bs

But since it was brought up that way, then of course I'm going to point out that women attempt suicide far more than men, the difference being that women and men choose different methods, and women's less proficient methods fail more often. It's no coincidence that the OP is the same one that creates oh, 90% of the "gender war" posts.

[HappyMe]

231. It shouldn't be turned into a

a 'my owie is worse than your owie' no matter the gender. I clicked this OP because my husband got word of the suicide of 2 of his male classmates. I have a couple of sons, a husband, uncles..... so I wanted to read about this issue.

I usually trashcan gender threads. No discussion, plenty of shit flinging.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

232. I agree. However, there are a few in here that do this sort of thing daily

And while I'm at it...

the degraded gender in this society (which is the one I live in) is not the male gender, so if any gender needs to be standing up against degradation, it's the female gender.

[HappyMe]

236. I am a woman.

Frankly, those discussions alway turn into insult fests and passive aggressive snark, which degrades everybody. People get angry, feelings are hurt and nothing is really accomplished.

[sibelian]

239. Well, Sara...

.... perhaps one day you will have an emotional reaction to the news of the death of someone to whom you are not personally close that is wholesome and ordinary.

Until then, I "suggest" that instead of using threads on the Internet to strike attitudes at the bereaved you go and find some counselling, as you are clearly borderline sociopathic.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

244. No, actually, I'm not the one with the little problem

Further, you need to read more carefully what is being said, so that you'll understand what's in a post and not have a knee-jerk reaction.

[treestar]

164. Common tactic to use something like that

to avoid being challenged. It's a layer of protective armor - we can't challenge because it would be mean because of something personal.

[The Straight Story]

78. I'm a progressive - I tend to see us all being oppressed to some degree

For a variety of reasons and many different ways.

Maybe the game now is to see who can show they are the most victimized by how the world is ran and tell others they aren't.

[Ohio Joe]

89. heh... It is certainly the game the 'mens' Group plays

You don't even consider women to be still trying to achieve equality but rather spend your time trying to prove it is women who oppress men.

Sheesh... Talk about games.

[lumberjack_jeff]

95. We ALL get that you have a hard-on about the men's group.

Can you please stop shitting on an important issue in a self-serving attempt to demonstrate what a truly progressive guy you are?

Surely, even you can summon the decency to allow the grownups to talk about suicide without you derailing it into your personal crusade.

[Ohio Joe]

102. If the OP was meant to be about suicide, it would not have been done deceptively

Instead, it tries to make suicide strictly an issue for men, when it is no such thing. The lack of decency is not in pointing this out but rather in trying to do it in the first place.

A conversation between adults starts at a place of honesty, not bullshit.

[lumberjack_jeff]

108. By a factor of FIVE-TO-ONE it is a men's issue.

It is the seventh leading cause of death among men. It's not among the top 10 for women.

[Ohio Joe]

113. So suicide is only an issue if the person attempting it succeeds?

Or do you like to keep the focus on those who do because your numbers simply don't hold up otherwise?

[lumberjack_jeff]

117. Yes, actually.

Suicide is an issue of more importance than simply thinking about it. In fact, the only value in understanding and treating suicidal ideation is to prevent people from succeeding at it.

[Ohio Joe]

125. What a shock.... 'suicide is only important if it succeeds'

You dismiss and deny anything that does not fit the MRA story line... And since going with a focus on trying to get more people to fail at suicide rather then actually trying to prevent suicidal tendencies appears to be the only way you can do it, you dismiss and deny the real problem.

Simply sick.

[lumberjack_jeff]

126. "the real problem" is dead people - not your creds. n/t

[Ohio Joe]

143. Non-sense. You only want to make suicide a 'mens' issue, you don't actually care about it

That you work so hard to ignore the reality makes that clear.

Why is it you are so afraid of equality?

What is it that drives you to feel so threatened by it?

[rustydog]

235. This is pretty simplistic

How about the problem is your "dead people" thought suicide was the only option available?

The problem is more serious than you allude and the answer is not in graphs depicting numbers of attempts.

[rustydog]

215. Getting them to realize there are other options OTHER than ending their lives is so important

I Personally know about a dozen suicide attempts. most have been female. the men shot themselves. they all "survived."

have you seen what a 7mm Remington magnum round does to the face when discharged under the chin?

Have you seen what a 12 gauge pump shotgun does to the face when you discharge it under the chin but it slips at the last second removing half of the face?

Have you held an intentional overdose as the charcoal is administered? (I actually got a thank you note from her months later)

have you grabbed onto someone who just FUCKING JUMPED from 5 stories up?

Have you had the holy SHIT kicked out of you as you try to prevent someone from fleeing to kill themselves.

These are people who see NO WAY OUT of their "situation" except to die. Many suicidal people believe they had no other way out. They could not control the chaos in their life, but this, their life, they could control...and then they fail in that attempt, how successful, how competent do you think they feel then?


I disagree with your statement that we prevent them from succeeding in their attempts. We need to be able to get them to discount attempting suicide as an option.

[sibelian]

242. OK I am now fully satsified that you have nothing to contribute to my life.

I you still cannot understand the purpose of the Men's Group I have a question for you to consider. You needn't respond as I already know the answer.

What is the nature of the actual DECEPTION that you are accusing Bonobo of? In what way do you suppose he is being misleading? Do you think he is describing men? Or AVOIDING describing WOMEN? And what persuades of your conclusion that a member of DU's MEN'S GROUP is being deceptive in describing the experience of MEN?

Goodbye, Ohio Joe. It has not been pleasant.

[Ohio Joe]

249. Gee... That breaks my heart

"I you still cannot understand the purpose of the Men's Group I have a question for you to consider. You needn't respond as I already know the answer."

I completely understand the purpose of the 'mens' Group... Anyone who reads through it can see it clearly. The purpose is to attack feminists on DU and attempt to portray men as second class citizens... You know, typical MRA non-sense.

"What is the nature of the actual DECEPTION that you are accusing Bonobo of?"

Bonobo is trying to portray suicide as being strictly a mens issue when it is not.

"In what way do you suppose he is being misleading?"

He is being misleading by only using one statistic in a complex issue while ignoring and denying the rest of the statistics required to get a full picture.

"Do you think he is describing men? Or AVOIDING describing WOMEN?"

Neither... He is trying to portray men as victims.

"And what persuades of your conclusion that a member of DU's MEN'S GROUP is being deceptive in describing the experience of MEN?"

When one uses only a part of the facts to try and lead people to an incorrect conclusion, they are being deceptive.

"Goodbye, Ohio Joe. It has not been pleasant."

umm... Bye.

[lumberjack_jeff]

73. Suicidal thoughts <> suicide

http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/statistics/rates02.html



From a public health perspective, it doesn't matter very much how often someone thinks about it. It isn't just that they use different methods, it's that they use methods which they know will work.

[Gravitycollapse]

80. Suicidal ideation and the act of suicide are manifestations of the same issue.

So it is important to consider suicidal ideation when talking about issues of suicide.

[lumberjack_jeff]

82. With the obvious distinction that one creates a dead person.

If suicidal ideation in women causes them to seek help, and suicidal ideation in men causes them to kill themselves, that's an important difference.

[Gravitycollapse]

88. On that we agree.

[laundry_queen]

112. That's absolutely a problem.

My teenage daughter and I were discussing this the other day. First we talked about the differences in how different genders are allowed to express feelings. In both genders, there is repression or invalidation of feelings encouraged in our society, but the method is different. When women have strong feelings, they are called 'crazy, hysterical' and so on. Men, OTOH, are shamed and invalidated at a young age and encouraged to 'put on a brave face' at all times. Both methods encourage both genders to supress feelings. This is not healthy. For many different reasons however, men are not encouraged to seek help while women are. Is this because men have been taught they must be stoic? Or taught that they must always be the protectors/providers and thus can't be the one in need? Or taught that the only acceptable emotion is anger? I don't know. Any of those societal pressures on men with regards to expression of feelings could result in a lower likelihood of men to seek help.

I posted in another thread about my brother's friend and hockey teammate that nearly died from anorexia. Many people waited a long time to get him help because he was very good at acting stoic until the point he collapsed. And, likely, there were people (this was 20-something years ago) who were in denial about eating disorders existing in males. I do think if he would have been female, help would've been forthcoming much sooner. I was good friends with his sister and she told me that when they went through intensive family therapy, it was discovered that the father was very strict when his son was younger with regards to showing feelings. My friend was one of those people who was almost overly emotional in public, and it was almost like in their family, the girls were encouraged too much to show emotion and the boys were expected to show none. And so, when my friend or her mother or sister would show a lot of emotion, the father would reiterate that women were crazy and when his son would get upset he would say things like, "you don't want to be crazy like your mother and sisters, do you?" And yet, too, it was okay for the women to get help (my friend went to the school counsellor a lot, while people like me who were taught to repress just sucked it up) but not the men (the dad was an alcoholic and refused to get help and his wife left him around the time after the son was in hospital).

I don't know where I'm going with that anecdote - just that societal gender roles with regards to feelings can have such an extreme impact on men that it's difficult to get them help when they need it most. This is one thing in society that definitely has to change. Both genders need to be able to have a health expression of feelings free of invalidation, shaming, ridiculing or name-calling.

[lumberjack_jeff]

120. Or told to "stop whining".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4554322

[laundry_queen]

131. Probably not the best choice of words.

However, the OP itself is a form of invalidation and is a passive aggressive way of saying the same thing to women. Just because the words weren't said doesn't mean the sentiment isn't there.

When my 6yo is complaining, say about wanting some sugary soda before bed, I make sure I validate her feelings about how she really wants the pop because it tastes good, and everyone likes food that tastes good but I reiterate that we don't eat sugar before bed and that the pop is not for her and it will give her cavities and I know that makes her upset. I will repeat the validation many times but honestly after 20 minutes of this, I do tell her to stop whining. Everyone has their breaking point when it comes to validating feelings. And that's okay too, because it teaches my daughter that she has to respect my feelings in return.

[TM99]

142. Herein lies one of the major problems

right now at DU with conflict resolution amongst specific groups of individuals.

Because a conflict may have occurred in the past, the assumption, and yes, it is a gross assumption, is that it is and must be ongoing.

However, the OP itself is a form of invalidation and is a passive aggressive way of saying the same thing to women. Just because the words weren't said doesn't mean the sentiment isn't there.

If the words are not there, particularly on an anonymous forum where you can not even see body language, you are imagining the 'sentiment' to be there. You are speculating that it is 'invalidating' and 'passive aggressive'.

In CBT, this is called mind-reading. It is a subtype of "Jumping to conclusions" where an individual reaches preliminary conclusions - almost always negative - from little or no evidence in the current communication. In mind reading, you infer another's possible or probable (again usually negative) thoughts from their behavior or their verbal and/or non-verbal communication. You then take precautions against the worst possible suspected case, do not ask the person directly, and respond in a defensive or aggressive manner in return. (John Tagg - Cognitive Distortions)

These cognitive distortions help to perpetuate ongoing and unresolved conflicts. Marital counselors see these daily.

Do you want to perpetuate this seemingly ongoing 'gender' conflict at DU?

Do you not see intrinsic value in the OP itself stripped away of your possible 'negative meaning' and assumptions?

Is not possible that indeed there are difference issues that require different solutions for both men and women?

If we take the OP at face value, the impetus for the discussion is the suicide death of a friend and his emotional response. Why must your feelings be respected? Why is it now about you or any other woman? Are you and other women in this thread now 'whining'? Perhaps projection is occurring here, and you need to take your own advice that you have given your daughter?

[laundry_queen]

146. Well the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior

One does not need body language to understand that 2 things happened along with this post: it was posted while feelings were still raw from all the other gender disagreements, and the statistics were disingenuous. That is evidence. There is no 'lack of evidence' here. At best, it was poor judgement, at worst, a jab.

I find it interesting you are the one, in your last paragraph, to resort to insults after the wordy lecture about conflict resolution immediately preceding it. The veil slips.

[TM99]

157. Your rationalizations for mind-reading and

continuing the conflict are duly noted.

Even pure historical data in the most scientific sense of the word does not always predict future events with absolute certainty. And your personal view as described here from instinct or experience alone has even lower odds.

Insulting? Hardly.

I asked blunt questions based on what you actually wrote, which I note you chose to ignore answering?

You communicated acceptance of another female member stating that a man or men in this thread were 'whining'. You justified it with a story about how when you little girl does such a thing, you get sick of validating her feelings, and instruct her to stop whining and respect your feelings.

If a man in a thread had done the same thing - communicated that it was OK to tell a female member that she was 'bitching' and then justified it by saying that he does the same after becoming frustrating with his little boy's or girl's 'bitching' - you would likely feel insulted and act accordingly such as alerting on the post.

So, again, bluntly, the only one being insulting is you. That does not help to end the 'gender war' on DU.

[laundry_queen]

159. Ah, irony is a poster accusing you of stuff they are actively doing in the exact same post. nt

[TM99]

160. You just keep telling yourself that.

[laundry_queen]

161. Meh. It's there for everyone to see. nt

[TM99]

162. Indeed it is.

You never once addressed what was communicated to you.

You made previous assumptions and mind-reading. You continue to do so when I address your actual written words. You communicate insults and then claim to be insulted when someone criticizes your actions.

I have communicated what I have wanted to say directly, politely, and cleanly. I will defer to you getting the last word.

Sadly, I am beginning to see why there is a push-back and growing frustration on DU with certain female members claiming to be 'Feminists' and the 'gender wars'. Until the wood is burned, the flames will continue.

[laundry_queen]

166. what was communicated to me?

This is what I heard: you were wrong to assume the OP had ulterior motives, you are speculating, you have cognitive distortion, you think you are a mind reader, you are perpetuating the gender wars, you are being narcissistic, you are projecting and maybe should take your own advice on whining

And you say you weren't insulting? What questions would you like an answer to?

And please don't insult my intelligence by saying you are just being 'blunt'...it's like using 'I'm JUST saying' as a preface to an insult.

[TM99]

170. OK, I'll bite because I feel it is important to communicate what I am attempting to do with you.

What you heard and what was actually written are two different things. What you 'hear' means how you interrupt what was said. And, yes, that is a choice.

1) "you were wrong to assume the OP had ulterior motives"

I never made a value judgement of it being 'right' or 'wrong'. You can read my exact words so I will not reiterate. If you want to know my direct thoughts then, they are that assumptions, speculations, projections, and the purposeful perpetuation of conflict is not useful.

2) "you are speculating"

Correct. You are doing so.

3) "you have cognitive distortion"

Doing such behavior is an example of cognitive distortion. You are not the only one who has or ever will do so. It again is not a value judgement.

4) "you think you are a mind reader"

You verbally stated what you believed the intent of the OP's post was about despite the OP clearly stating why he posted it and even edited it for absolute clarity. So yes, that was an example of mind reading and apparently a failed one.

5) "you are perpetuating the gender wars"

If you are doing such actions with those you perceive yourself to be having ongoing conflict with and are unwilling to even be mindful that you are doing these things, then yes, sadly, you are helping to keep the conflict going. You are certainly not de-escalating it.

6) "you are being narcissistic"

I suspect this is why you are believing that I have insulted you. That is your interpretation of what was said but not what I said. I do not throw around the narcissism word lightly.

One can be unaware, unempathetic, and projective in one specific instance and hardly be a full blown clinical Narcissist. Sadly, all of us do that when we are caught up in 'things' especially a nice juicy conflict that has wood to burn.

7) "you are projecting"

Telling another individual that it is OK for them to be called whining and that the OP is being 'insensitive to a specific group of women's feelings' when that was not their stated intention thereby making it about yours and the other woman's frustrating is projection. You are making it about your feelings when it was clearly not about you.

8) "and maybe should take your own advice on whining"

Again, you are interpreting and not reading what I wrote. I never once told you stop whining. That is not what you communicated you 'taught' your daughter. And I quote, "...because it teaches my daughter that she has to respect my feelings in return." Are you demanding others respect your feelings, when your communication concerning this OP does not respect his intention, reasons, and feelings for posting such a topic? That is what I clearly mean by stating that perhaps, "you need to take your own advice that you have given your daughter?"

I never once insulted you or your intelligence. In fact, I have a hope and an expectation that because of your intelligence that you might take what I have written and consider what you communicated and how that does seem to be perpetuating ongoing conflict between several men and women on this site.

Finally, my questions were very clearly denoted in my post with spaces between most if not all of them and question marks, however, for the sake of absolutely clear communication, here they are again:

1) Do you want to perpetuate this seemingly ongoing 'gender' conflict at DU?

2) Do you not see intrinsic value in the OP itself stripped away of your possible 'negative meaning' and assumptions?

3) Is not possible that indeed there are difference issues that require different solutions for both men and women?

4) Why must your feelings be respected?
5) Why is it now about you or any other woman?
6) Are you and other women in this thread now 'whining'?

I have lumped these three together because they are interconnected. If the topic is not about you, is not about women, and is emotionally important to men (and women as well as evidenced by replies), why are you using the thread as another attempt to perpetuate a conflict between two groups and several men and women on DU?

[laundry_queen]

178. And I think a lot of your questions are like 'push polls'

And that you are falsely equivocating many things. The whole list is disingenuous and I feel like you are trying to 'therapy' me (yes it's a verb) in a manipulative manner. I had a whole post that I just deleted because as I answered the questions, I could see that you are trying to paint a particular picture with your narrative. You were also ascribing things to me, personally, that I have never said, yet at the same time you tell me the topic is not about me, and then you go on attack at the end accusing me of something that you had just asked me a question about. So the question was never about you genuinely wanting to know, as you have already made up your mind. Therefore, I'm done.
ETA: I'm sure you're response will be 'aha, I knew it! you want to generate conflict!' but I don't even care anymore. Have at it.

[TM99]

204. I don't 'therapize' strangers,

yet I don't leave the skills I have learned about communication, conflict, and the psyche at home either.

You refuse to see that even now you are assuming I am being manipulative. You are assuming that I am 'painting a picture with my narrative'. Naturally you will have to make one up now as I certainly never expressed one. I quoted your exact words. My questions go to the very heart of them and despite your imaginings, yes, I actually did want to know the answers to those questions.

And even your last assumption about me is incorrect. I simply observe that you do not see me as anything other than an object of projection from your own subjective mind. My words or feelings whether expressed or not are irrelevant to someone who already believes they know what I am thinking, feeling, intending, going to say instead of what I do or did say, or do. THAT is objectification. Men and women do it every time they ascribe their own psychic scripts to a real person outside of their subjective imaginings. Tits & ass and money & power are the surface. That is sadly the depths.

I may be a gadfly. I am not sadistic. I am finished discussing this with you.

[lumberjack_jeff]

197. This is the best post I've read all month.

Thank you.

[TM99]

200. I appreciate your saying so

though I don't think I would go that far.

Thank you all the same.

[lumberjack_jeff]

201. In fairness, the competition wasn't all that impressive.

[DanTex]

86. "it's that they use methods which they know will work."

Are you just saying that, or is this based on some kind of evidence? According to the last poster, women attempt suicide more often than men. Do public health professionals believe that women are intentionally choosing methods (i.e. pills) because they know are they not as likely to work?

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. From the NIH

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001554.htm

Suicide and suicidal behaviors usually occur in people with one or more of the following:

Bipolar disorder
Borderline personality disorder
Depression
Drug or alcohol dependence
Schizophrenia
Stressful life issues, such as serious financial or relationship problems
People who try to commit suicide are often trying to get away from a life situation that seems impossible to deal with. Many who make a suicide attempt are seeking relief from:

Feeling ashamed, guilty, or like a burden to others
Feeling like a victim
Feelings of rejection, loss, or loneliness
Suicidal behaviors may occur when there is a situation or event that the person finds overwhelming, such as:

Aging (the elderly have the highest rate of suicide)
Death of a loved one
Dependence on drugs or alcohol
Emotional trauma
Serious physical illness
Unemployment or money problems
Risk factors for suicide in teenagers include:

Access to guns
Family member who committed suicide
History of hurting themselves on purpose
History of being neglected or abused
Living in communities where there have been recent outbreaks of suicide in young people
Romantic breakup
Most suicide attempts do not result in death. Many of these attempts are done in a way that makes rescue possible. These attempts are often a cry for help.

Some people attempt suicide in a way that is less likely to be fatal, such as poisoning or overdose. Males, especially elderly men, are more likely to choose violent methods, such as shooting themselves. As a result, suicide attempts by males are more likely to result in death.

[DanTex]

94. That's far from conclusive.

It says that men are more likely to use violent methods. It doesn't say that the reason women don't chose violent methods is because they aren't really trying to kill themselves. It could easily be the case that, for example, men are more likely to own or shoot guns than women, or that women dislike violence more than men so they are more likely to attempt in non-violent ways.

[lumberjack_jeff]

98. If you have a better source than the National Institute of Health, please share.

Men are socialized that there's no help to be had. If a meaningful safety net were perceived to be available to men, we might see less lethal methods chosen.

[DanTex]

106. It's not a question of a better source. It's that NIH doesn't say what you claim it does.

You want to believe that men choose guns and women pills because women don't actually want suicide attempts to succeed, but that's not what the NIH says. NIH says that men choose more violent means. It doesn't say why.

You are the one making an assertion about why men and women choose different methods, but your assertion is without evidence.

It's fine to speculate about why men choose more violent means (i.e. safety net, the way men are socialized), but don't pretend that it's anything more than speculation.

[lumberjack_jeff]

111. I posted the text verbatim.

Most suicide attempts do not result in death. Many of these attempts are done in a way that makes rescue possible. These attempts are often a cry for help.

So... your argument is that the NIH didn't really mean to say that.

[DanTex]

116. Notice that neither "men" nor "women" are mentioned in that sentence.

The only part that mentions men is this:

Some people attempt suicide in a way that is less likely to be fatal, such as poisoning or overdose. Males, especially elderly men, are more likely to choose violent methods, such as shooting themselves. As a result, suicide attempts by males are more likely to result in death.

Conspicuously missing is any explanation of why men choose more violent methods. That is pure speculation on your part.

You would like to believe it's because of the way society treats men. But it is just as likely that it is because men are more likely to use violence to solve problems of any kind. In this case, that proclivity towards violence -- and not the fact that women who attempt suicide are just crying for help -- is the reason for the differential in actual suicides versus suicide attempts.

In fact, NIH lists access to guns as a suicide risk, and we know that men are more likely than women to own guns.

[westerebus]

84. Twenty times as many attempted suicides that completed suicides.

That would be across the genders with women having a higher rate of attempted suicide.

Everyone should have access to mental health care. And encouraged to seek help.

[lumberjack_jeff]

130. The OP isn't driving a wedge, it's an attempt to remove it.

The idea that suicide and thinking about suicide are somehow equivalent was invented to obfuscate the point that the OP is making.

Suicide is the seventh leading cause of death among males, but not among the top 10 for women.

[laundry_queen]

136. You are manipulating the statistics.

Women don't just think about suicide - they attempt it (reported attempts by hospitals, not just some 'survey') in far larger numbers than men do. That's serious and that you ignore the 'attempt' word and focus on the 'think about it' part shows you are being intentionally disingenuous.

Your statistics don't prove any of your assertions.

[Cali_Democrat]

9. It seems like you're saying male suicide is ignored by society

What is your evidence of this?

[treestar]

165. If anything, society probably worries more about it

And does more to try to prevent it.

[Bjorn Against]

10. Suicide is not unique to men, please don't dismiss the women who have died to suicide

[Bonobo]

11. Please do not put words in my mouth nt

[Bjorn Against]

14. I did not put words in your mouth here are your exact words...

"Both men and women face struggles unique to their gender."

Those are your words, but the fact is that suicide is not a problem unique to the male gender. When your post does not even acknowledge the women who die of suicide it does come off as dismissive of them.

[Bonobo]

17. That, sir, is a needlessly aggressive reading. nt

[Bjorn Against]

18. No it is reading the words that you wrote

If you recognize that it is not unique to gender then just edit your post to acknowledge all victims of suicide.

[Bonobo]

21. No, you have indeed misinterpreted. nt

[YoungDemCA]

35. +1

[sibelian]

190. Saying how things "come off" IS putting words in people's mouths.

Why do you think anyone would suppose otherwise?

[hfojvt]

230. you do realize

what happens when an issue is posted about women

and men jump in the thread and say "but the same thing happens to men".

They get pilloried for daring to think that THEY are in any way important.

As for the words "Both men and women face struggles unique to their gender."


That seems like less of a "female suicide is not worth talking about" than it is a pre-emptive "I know I am talking about a male issue, can it please NOT start another gender war?"

[RainDog]

12. I'm not trying to be mean

but I just wanted to point out that you entirely misread the post.

within the context of people here who don't like one another, I'm sure his post could be taken as an extension of that. However, if you choose to respond to the issue of suicide, you will not participate in another flame session.

At least that's my opinion.

[Bjorn Against]

15. All I am asking is that he does not claim suicide to be unique to men

Because the fact is that it is not unique to men, it is a problem that effects a lot of people and we should not limit our discussion of it to one sex.

[Bonobo]

19. I did not intend to suggest that.

1. The fact that I said men commit suicide more often implies directly that women do so as well.

2. My "unique issues" was not referring to suicide but rather to other issues that are indeed specific to their gender.

[Bjorn Against]

24. Then you should edit your post to make it more clear

Because when your post is about suicide and then you refer to issues unique to a gender people are going to assume it is the issue you were just talking about rather than an issue you never mentioned.

[Bonobo]

25. I disagree.

I explained myself and would appreciate if you could ease back a little.

If you don't want to address the OP, that's fine but please discontinue with relaying a false implication about my intentions. Thank you.

[Bjorn Against]

31. I did address the OP, all I am asking is that you remove the phrase about an issue unique to men

I would agree that suicide is a serious issue, but it a serious issue for all people and I think it is important to acknowledge the women who have died as well. Is that really too much to ask?

[Bonobo]

42. I will edit nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. Yes. Roughly one out of every five suicide victims is female.

http://www.who.int/mental_health/media/unitstates.pdf

If that observation is what it takes to bring attention to the other four, so be it.

[LostOne4Ever]

13. If I remember my psych 101 course

A large factor in suicide in general is that one is more likely to succeed the smaller the social safety net supporting that person.

Similarly our society tends to reinforce the gender roles/stereotypes that women are more social and men are more stoic which makes for a bad formula when it comes to male suicide.

Also, iirc on average the methods men and women use to commit suicide differ. When a man attempts suicide it is more usually in a more extravagant manner. Men tend to prefer the use of firearms or making a large show of their suicide by hanging themselves in a public manner. Women, conversely, tend to attempt suicide by employing more modest means. They tend to prefer pills or filling up a bathtub with water and slitting their wrists.

Put another way, when a man attempts suicide the damage done to the person is so extreme that the odds of saving them if found are extremely low.

[YoungDemCA]

34. Good post

This makes a lot of sense.

[davidpdx]

104. Very good point

I'm trying to remember about the recent case that was discuss on DU within the last week about someone killing themselves. I only remember the way they did it was just awful and unusual. I'm probably blocking it out, which is a good thing.

I have to wonder how much personality plays into how someone kills themselves. For instance, even if I owned a gun and felt hopeless I could never go out that way. It's just too grizzly and frankly I wouldn't have the guts to do it. Some men have more of a feminine side (I was raised by my mother) and I think would be less likely to choose a violent or extravagant way of suicide.

[Fumesucker]

225. Nail gun applied repeatedly to the torso, limbs and head

Extra points for originality, I don't think I've heard of that particular method before.

[davidpdx]

247. Oh, that's right

Ewww

[dawg]

20. Men *are* struggling on a number of fronts.

We are still a privileged class, but unless we are plutocrats, we all face serious challenges. To some extent, the gender roles that help to hold women down, turn out to be harmful to men as well.

[Bonobo]

22. Without a doubt. nt

[YoungDemCA]

33. The funny thing is: men could change this

Why they (we) don't seems puzzling, until you realize that there are a lot of benefits that men get from the unequal power relations regarding gender roles, as well.

[dawg]

41. There's only so much that one person can do to change things.

Treating people like the unique individuals they are, regardless of gender, is a start.

I do think men are changing, although the pace of change can sometimes seem glacial to those who are eager to see real change. And some people are never going to change. That's just the nature of some people.

[YoungDemCA]

52. I think that's a noble goal

However, too often I see the individualistic approach being used as cover to reinforce social hierarchies by opponents of equality.

Not saying you are one of those though-just something to be aware of .

[RBStevens]

26. It is becoming more and more common for men to *commit* suicide

*by cop* by perpetrating a violent crime like shooting up a school, a mall or other public space. Then there is also murder-suicide that seems to be very much on the rise wherein the man kills his ex/estranged wife/girlfriend and often their children as well before he kills himself.

[jimlup]

36. As you point out: "one does mean we cannot or should not also pay attention to the other..." !

Absolutely

Another male problem that most are not even aware of has to do with young men in the academic world. As a high school teacher I am very aware of this. I'm not sure that our society as a whole is though. Young men are failing to achieve the academic standards and are falling far short of their female contemporaries. So much so that some institutions have been forced to institute "affirmative action" for males to keep the gender balance from becoming absurd.

We can work to solve this problem but we have to understand that it exists first. I fear that the (poorly named) "gender wars" which occur here and elsewhere blind us to such issues and prevent us from dealing with them in a rational way.

[BainsBane]

38. Because too many view gun rights as more important than human lives

and insist suicides "don't count" in the tally of victims of gun violence. Those who aren't heavily invested in gun rights don't care enough to hold politicians accountable for their votes on gun measures.

Suicide by gun has a 95% rate of lethality. No other method approaches that. Guns don't cause suicide, but they make it very easy for people to kill themselves.

[Prophet 451]

47. While that's true

Isn't it also addressing the tool rather than the problem?

[BainsBane]

83. The tool makes a treatable disease lethal

The vast majority of suicides are caused by mental illness, people in so much psychic pain they just want it to stop. Medical science doesn't have a way to cure mental illnesses, but they can be treated. Suicidal ideation and even attempts are symptoms of mood disorders and some thought disorders. A gun makes it far more likely that a person will attempt to kill themselves and carries a 95% probability that the attempt will succeed. Absent a gun, it's actually not that easy to kill yourself. People will say if a person really wants to, they will kill themselves anyway. Absolutely true, except most suicide attempts aren't carefully planned. They are impulsive. If a person takes pills, they have a good chance of surviving. Psychiatric units in hospitals are filled with people who have attempted suicide. But if the person uses a gun, chances of surviving are slim. They are gone, and treatment is no longer an option.

I also think there is an absence of sympathy toward suicide victims. There is the sense that people who kill themselves deserve what they get. They don't see it as a lethal consequence of a life threatening illness. Some of that stems from the stigma surrounding mental illness.

[Prophet 451]

91. I'm suffering from mental illness myself

If you'll excuse teh jargon, I had MDD, GAD, "visions" and voices along with a bunch of lesser phobias such as answering the phone or bathing. The only way I can deasl with the world is via my monitor, where I can keep an emotional distance. Like a lot of depressives, I have multiple mental suicide plans, mostly centred on my knowledge of homebrewed drugs (handguns are banned here and my illness would mean I'd be rejected for a longarms license).

I know the stigma all too well. I can feel people's eyes on me when I collect my medication or visit my shrink. Here, it's also tied up wth the outright hate campaign our media is running against anyone claiming welfare.

[Bonobo]

48. You are so right.

Here in Japan however, there are no guns but a high suicide rate nevertheless. Hanging and pills are common.

[BainsBane]

58. I have heard that about Japan

Of course the lack of treatment for mental illness and stigma against seeking treatment is a central factor in this country, and I expect in many other countries as well.

[davidpdx]

96. That's not exactly correct

There are guns in Japan, but they are so heavily regulated that getting one is next to impossible. I saw a news report about an American living there who owns a gun. He had to go through something like three psych evaluations, buy a gun safe, and report exactly where his gun was kept.

Here in Korea it is impossible unless you are either military or police.

[davidpdx]

92. Absoutely

You are right that suicides by gun need to be included in gun violence totals.

I had a friend who (before I met her) attempted suicide with a gun. She survived, but ended up blind. I'm not sure how old she was when it happened, I knew her around the time she was 17 or 18.

[Spider Jerusalem]

46. Bullshit, sorry

Men who attempt suicide are more likely to use a gun, or a rope. Women are more likely to overdose, or slash their wrists, or stick their heads in a gas oven. More women attempt suicide than men; more men succeed.

And the difference in incarceration rates? Testosterone and aggression.

[Bonobo]

51. Unsuccessful attempts I have heard

May in some cases be a call for help.

[Gravitycollapse]

57. Or it could be that more men own guns or other effective tools of death.

And are better conditioned to use them on human beings.

Which makes sense given the violent characteristics of normative masculinity.

[Gravitycollapse]

56. The difference in incarceration has nothing to do with testosterone.

That truly is a misandrist argument.

[Spider Jerusalem]

72. "Misandrist"? Hahaha.

http://scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=testosterone+and+aggression&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart&sa=X&ei=5sUKU6GlJ6eb0QX9v4A4&ved=0CCsQgQMwAA

And, violent crime *arrest* rates:

[Gravitycollapse]

74. You've done nothing to disprove my point. Saying testosterone causes crime is stupid.

And, in this instance, misandry. It is an essentialist argument against men.

The issue of violence and its domination by men is an issue of normative masculinity, a social creation, not something essential to the male body.

Your data only shows an actuality. It doesn't explain it.

[Spider Jerusalem]

81. Saying testosterone and aggression have nothing to do with violent crime is stupid.

There's a well-understood link between testosterone and aggression and dominance in non-human animals. It's nothing more than arrogance to presume that humans are in any way somehow special or different to other animals in the motivations for their behaviour and the consequences of things like neurology and hormones. Male violence and aggression are decidedly not "social creations".

[Gravitycollapse]

87. Essentialist nonsense. Your claims are not backed by data or theory.

Testosterone does not cause violence. Violence itself is a learned object. The physical body is applied to what is learned and the result is physical violence. Linguistically, nothing has meaning until it possesses identity and nothing possesses identity until it is established in consciousness. Which is a method of experiencing also known as learning.

Male violence and aggression are decidedly not "social creations".

An absurd claim even by most standards of absurdity.

[TM99]

137. You are so wrong it is actually quite disturbing.

It is far more complex and you have reduced it all to a simplistic causation not recognizing a more likely two-way correlation instead with the final jury still out.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/12/091208132241.htm

New scientific evidence refutes the preconception that testosterone causes aggressive, egocentric, and risky behavior. A study with more than 120 experimental subjects has shown that the sexual hormone with the poor reputation can encourage fair behaviors if this serves to ensure one's own status.

http://bio.sunyorange.edu/updated2/THINKING_EVOLUTION/disorders/web/aggression.htm

STRESS
Testosterone decreases the activity of the HPA axis. Lower levels of cortisol are associated with increased aggression and enhanced social rank in animals. Responding to angry facial expressions is associated with increased testosterone and decreased cortisol (Hermans, 2008). This reduction in cortisol secretion can be observed in children and may thus be a predictor of aggressive behavior. Adolescent girls with conduct disorder typically have higher levels of testosterone and lower levels of cortisol (Pajer, 2006). In animals, chronic stress and elevated corticosteroid levels decrease aggression while abnormally low function of glucocorticoids increased aggression (Nelson, 2006; Ramirez, 2003). Interestingly, there seems to be an interaction between culture and cortisol levels. For example, differences in the rise of cortisol levels after experiencing insult have been observed between adolescents raised in the Northern U.S. compared to the Southern U.S. (Ramirez, 2003).

http://www.medicine.mcgill.ca/mjm/v06n01/v06p032/v06p032.pdf

It is thought that testosterone and its metabolites sensitize an androgen-responsive system, while estrogenic metabolites establish the capacity to fight in response to estrogenic stimulation later in life. Despite this, testosterone is only one of a myriad of factors that influence aggression and the effects of previous experience and environmental stimuli have at times been found to correlate more strongly.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/strange-but-true-testosterone-alone-doesnt-cause-violence/

No one really knows the answer, but a growing body of evidence suggests that testosterone is as much the result of violence as its cause. Indeed, both winning a sporting match and beating an opponent at chess can boost testosterone levels. (On the other hand, losing a sporting match, growing old and becoming obese all reduce levels of testosterone.)

[Gravitycollapse]

147. You will notice they never came back.

Probably because they had a moment of clarity. Or maybe they did a simple Google search.

[lumberjack_jeff]

99. Four out of every five people that commit suicide are men.

What's bullshit is diminishing the magnitude of the problem "because women think about it too, you know".

[laundry_queen]

121. Women aren't just thinking about it, they are attempting it in greater numbers. nt

[sibelian]

193. "Testosterone and aggression"

Gender essentialism.

[Orrex]

49. Didn't take long for people to start beating up on you, that's for sure.

k/r

[Bonobo]

55. Indeed.

This illustrates the difficulty in having a dialog.

[Warren DeMontague]

69. I was going to suggest a drinking game based upon how often the word "whining" is thrown out

that's where my mind goes.

[lumberjack_jeff]

199. Not a very fun game, but one worth participating in anyway. n/t

[HappyMe]

198. Yes. It makes me sad.

This shouldn't turn into a dead body count contest. Guys who are so deeply depressed that think this is the only way out shouldn't have been turned in yet another gender war. People are DEAD, ffs.

[Gravitycollapse]

54. This is often, but not always, the case...

The way our society functions is a conflict between the masculine and the feminine. And the masculine is elevated to an irredeemably unhealthy perspective. Men are seen as necessary oppressors. Not just by the oppressed but by the oppressors themselves. This celebration of the stereotypical masculine, with all of its violence and idiocy, produces a body of psychologically and emotionally stunted men. Men who don't possess the coping skills necessary to successfully navigate adversity.

When you are constantly being beaten down, when you're at the bottom, you learn to live with or fight against the oppressive forces. When you're at the top of the hierarchy, you learn how to live a coddled existence.

The second part of this disaster involves the abjectification of femininity. It becomes antithetical to success and shameful for men to display, let alone possess any sort of feminine identity. Be it something as trivial as performing poorly in violent sports all the way to being sexually attracted to other men.

ANY deviation from the standard narrative of heteronormative masculinity is subject to extreme backlash. The goal is to either pull this individual back in line or drive him out of the pool of men.

This produces two likely outcomes. The first is that many men deviate just a little, are ridiculed horrifically and fall back in line (often becoming hyper-masculine and violent to prove their credentials). The second is that many other men, not possessing proper coping skills, having only the desire to conform but the inability to really fully understand what that means, choose to destroy themselves.



The master/slave dichotomy is often discussed in this circumstance. More importantly, deconstructing this dichotomy shows us the root of the problem. To own is to be owned by your status over others. The slave, possessing no status at all, has nothing more to lose. To be a master is to be a slave to the master status. To lose that status is devastating.



Of course, this is all a general rule of thumb, not the case with ALL suicides, attempted suicides or suicidal ideation.

[RBStevens]

68. +1

[laundry_queen]

123. Good post. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

59. men are just more successful at carrying out suicides

because they tend to opt for things that cannot be easily reversed, like a gun shot.

[Gravitycollapse]

63. It's obviously not an accident that men choose more effective means.

Men aren't just more successful at carrying out suicide.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

64. to be effective to prevent male suicides, we might want to have a talk around guns.

but whenever the issue of guns are brought up, its never a good time to discuss them

[westerebus]

119. Some states will pull concealed carry permits if restraining orders are in effect.

I haven't heard of "protective custody" for the actual firearms, but it might be the way to go.

Given there is no control of illegal firearms, I don't know what the answer is.

The argument will be made it's prejudicial. Unconstitutional.

Maybe the court could ask they be surrendered voluntarily?

Still that's an other set of concerns.

We do a lousy job when it comes to divorce in this country.

[JVS]

156. Japan has very tight gun laws and high suicide rates.

I think a more effective approach would be to examine comparative access to social services.

[LeftyMom]

71. Methods for attacking others are also highly gendered.

Poisoners are disproportionately female, arsonists are disproportionately male. Of course self-harm is also gendered.

In suicide attempts women tend to choose methods which will not leave a mess, men tend to opt for methods which are perceived as irrevocable. Socialization effects everything.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

61. I believe you're incorrect. Women attempt it more. Men are more successful.

Men also employ more extreme methods. I believe that women use pills. Men tend to use more violent methods.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

65. that is correct. nt

[amuse bouche]

67. Isn't it true that may more men

take down other family members with them?

[Warpy]

70. More women than men attempt suicide. More men than women succeed

mostly because of the difference in exit choices. Men tend to use firearms, jump from high places, or hang themselves. Women try to do it with poison, something that is more complicated than most think.

I'd say we're all being chewed up and spit out these days. Men have the additional burden of the masculinity construct that says they always have to be strong, silent breadwinners and to identify more with their jobs than women do.

What should be causing this country to panic are the suicides of military people of both sexes. Whatever is wrong with us in the civilian world, it's magnified in the military world.

In any case, this is a pretty sick culture where people are overworked and underpaid and with very little leisure. Any sense of self worth is falling with the family's purchasing power. Most of us are drained and not able to recharge our batteries. Depression is rampant and that is what fuels suicide.

[TDale313]

152. Very well put. Thank you.

[Shankapotomus]

75. Is it possible

suicide stats are higher for men because many more are invested in a high risk cultural ethos than women? Traditionally, masculinity has been treated as something to be proven and defended and when under a severe test, defended and proven by extreme, and in a lot of cases, violent behavior. Femininity, not so much.

I understand there is a great deal of cultural and social pressure for men to behave like "men" but perhaps if more men marched to the beat of a more peaceful and less demanding drummer, regardless of what society expected from them, more might not find themselves in situations where they are contemplating suicide.

I don't know how anyone can buy into such phony male posturing anyway or even want to be an "alpha male." Trying to prove something to their narcissistic and sociopathic fathers? Too many cowboy movies? I don't know.

All I know is I don't buy into it myself and I've never been depressed. You don't risk disappointment with yourself over an ideal you've never bought into in the first place.

[Gravitycollapse]

77. You don't consciously buy into socialization.

The foundation for social expectation is laid at an early age. Long before someone possesses the ability to doubt the conditions to which they are subjected.

[closeupready]

105. Also, Hollywood validates existing gender stereotypes.

Not perhaps 100% across the board - for example, any gay or transgender entertainment personalities.

Nonetheless, the mainstream entertainment industry does NOT reward gender nonconformity.

[Smarmie Doofus]

118. ^ This.^ n/t

[Shankapotomus]

133. True

You have to sense your way out of it, if you haven't been encouraged as part of that socialization to question authority. And the case can be made that early on there are lessons that imbue us with at least a rudimentary awareness of the value of original thinking and challenging authority or the perceived wisdom of the day. The 13 colonies throwing off the yoke of British rule is one. Books depicting the struggles of the First Nations peoples against European and American authority from their perspective is another avenue that is openly available to any middle or high school student within reach of a library self. Feminist and Civil Rights literature is yet another. And of course there are countless popular movies where the lessons and failures of hyper masculinity are repeatedly on display: The Color Purple, A Few Good Men, Taps, on and on. So, even in our culture, there are ample opportunities to figure it all out.

[Gravitycollapse]

140. Very little good feminist literature exists anywhere, let alone in middle and high school libraries.

[lupinella]

79. CN: Suicide & attempted suicide.

Anecdotal* personal facts:
My immediate family: 1 (woman) committed suicide, 2 others (1 woman, 1 man) attempted.
My personal attempts were a cry for help the first few times, but after that I was deadly serious. I simply would have preferred death to living in my abusive family.

Of my friends who've attempted suicide, the vast majority were women. Literally only known one guy who has told me he attempted. Slightly more of my friends are guys, & we talk about such things. Don't know how many were 'cries for help', but when we've talked about that subject they've never expressed that fact - even when I did. Most tried pills the first time, which could be the reason they survived. (Most were trapped in abuse.)
In my high school, the only suicide I recall was a young woman. (Again, abusive family.)

*No, the plural of anecdote is not anecdata, but this is simply my frame of reference.

[westerebus]

138. Welcome to DU.

[lupinella]

139. Thanks, but

I've been around here since 2008 - I tend to rec more than comment, but I'm on here just about every day!

[westerebus]

141. Good on ya then.

I didn't check your ? stats. lol

I didn't want you to be left out in the cold so to speak given your post.

[lupinella]

145. Cheers!

and Thanks!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

93. Too many men spend their lives dreaming of "making it"....

Then they hit their mid-50s and realize they aren't going to.

That's also the age when they often have to undergo their first surgery. Could be their first kidney or gall stone.

[laundry_queen]

135. While I was doing research I found that

suicide rates for men are highest in the age 75+ category. I wonder if that's because it's the age where they become more dependent on others?

[davidpdx]

107. Mental health issues need to be taken more seriously in the US

Both genders and children. With children if an issue is identified and treated early I think we as a society can avoid a lot of problems down the road.

[lupinella]

144. Agreed

I've been in therapy off/on for years. (Currently CBT because it MAKES you work at coping skills.)

Have on three occasions had to call my therapist to have her talk to a friend/co-worker in crisis mode. None of those people are currently seeing a therapist because they either feel as if therapy is pointless or have been talked OUT of seeing someone by their partner or friends. Which is ludicrous, because they keep repeating their patterns.
(Am not saying therapy is a cure-all, but to be pressured by society in general & your loved ones in particular to drop it as a tool for you to utilize - that's screwed up.)

My last suicide attempt occurred at the age of twelve, & I will always remember that when my principal saw me right after I was out of the hospital his comment was, "You must not really be a Christian, because no real Christian would attempt suicide."* The joy of religious schooling in the '80s.

The idea that simply looking for help with ANY medical condition could be considered as proof that you are weak....
We have some seriously messed up priorities.

*and I did become an atheist/humanist, so he may have been onto... nah, he was just lacking empathy.

[davidpdx]

150. Thanks for sharing your experience

I'm American and living in South Korea. The suicide rate here is high. Students are under so much pressure. Once they get into middle and high school they essentially go to school all day and all evening (public school and then private institutes in the afternoon and evening). I thought high school was hard, but it just pales in comparison to what kids here are put through.

[Violet_Crumble]

151. Suicide isn't a gender issue...

As someone who's suffered from depression and been in a dark place where I did seriously think about suicide, I'd say it's a depression issue....

[Behind the Aegis]

154. True. However, it is how one is perceived that becomes a real issue.

Last edited Mon Feb 24, 2014, 04:49 AM - Edit history (1)

I don't know what it is like in Australia, but there is a serious stigma for those with mental health issues in the US, but it is even worse for men. I just re-watched an episode of "The Simpsons" and Marge was upset and Homer asked, "Why are you crying? Are you in physical pain? It's the only pain men understand." Something along those lines. It was one of those jokes which reflect the reality of men in the US (and likely other places). We are considered "weak" and "unmanly" if we have issues with depression. While some of the same nasty things are said about people who complete suicide, men seem to be more targeted with the nastiness.

Like you, I have been down that dark road. It is hard to explain to anyone who has not. It is like explaining the taste of cheddar to someone who has never eaten it. 12 years ago (and two months), I laid out my bills, including my insurance papers, and made it appear I was in the process of paying bills. There had been an ice storm the night before. The bridge going to town, above a small river, was always a pain, but when it was icy, it was very dangerous. For some reason, my seatbelt was already buckled on the driver's side and I couldn't get it unhooked to put it on. I couldn't even slip into it. My plan was shot to shit. By the next day, someone noticed something was terribly wrong, probably because I had branded my hand, and then I was off to the doctor's office. Of course, 2 months later, he came into my life (you sent us a puppy), and here I am. Then, while looking for a new job, well, let's just say someone illegally disclosed that event, and I was blacklisted.

I agree it isn't a "gender issue" per se, but the way people address, deal with, and understand suicide is different when it comes to men.

[Violet_Crumble]

155. You've got a point there, and it's the same, probably worse here...

We've got this culture where men are seen as weak if they cry or show any emotion that's not seen as being blokey*. I think it might be even worse than it is in the US, but I'm just assuming as I've never lived there.

Y'know, I'm really glad someone did notice something was wrong and go you to the doctor. I never got past the thinking about it stage, and though I've had occasional bouts of depression since then, I've never gotten to that stage again.

One thing that gets me with all these gender threads that have been happening is I've seen a few posts that dismiss men's issues as not being as bad as *point at something else* or not happening enough to bother with. It's like some people see it as a competition where to admit that there are legitimate issues that men face is to be conceding defeat in some cyber flamewar. It's stupid, imo




* For a look at the bloke stereotype, this song gives an idea. btw, the Tuggeranong he talks about in the intro is where I lived for about 15 years, and there are a few guys out there that are pretty much how they portray blokes in the song...

[lumberjack_jeff]

196. +1 n/t

[polly7]

158. My Dad committed suicide when he got suddenly and seriously ill for the first time in his life.

He'd spent 78 years providing for, taking care of and being an inspiration to a wife and 9 kids. Occasionally, he was out of work but he'd always find a farmer to help or some way to support us, he was an amazing man who worked from the time the sun came up until it set. Even after we'd all grown up, if there was something to be fixed, or moved, or any of us or his grandchildren needed him for anything at all ... he was there. When he got ill, his biggest fear was being a burden to all of us.

Your OP is good, Bonobo.

To add: when I see calls for an end to the only Group on here available to men to discuss their own issues, it makes me sick. If my Dad had had someone else to talk to besides those of us he was so worried about his life possibly wouldn't have ended the way it did. If one man finds comfort or guidance in one single issue affecting him that he doesn't feel comfortable sharing elsewhere, that group is well worth having .... as well as having a place to relate, let off steam or whatever else they choose to discuss. I honestly can't understand how some here demand for themselves a place they feel welcome and supported in, while wanting to deny any other.

[rrneck]

185. Very well said. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

195. Thank you for this. n/t

[CFLDem]

245. Thank you

Very eloquently stated

[treestar]

163. Probably because of the pressure to succeed

Because they are given a higher chance to succeed they are harsher judges on themselves if they don't. Thus giving them an interest in doing away with patriarchy - so actually your point supports feminism rather than supporting the idea that no need for feminism exists.

[whatthehey]

167. One potentially relevant difference not yet considered

is the unspoken assumption that suicide is always a failure of mental or emotional health. If instead one can accept that a life of pain, want, and suffering is inferior to a quick and essentially pain-free death and that the latter is a logical solution to irrevocable problems, then the gender difference may spring from the difference in personal problem solving approaches which has been repeatedly tested in psychology, noted in couples counselling and joked about in sitcoms. While women are not irrational and men are not without feelings either universally or individually, the sterotypical, for a reason, male approach to solving personal problems is more individual, dispassionate and objective as opposed to the female group-based, emotional and subjective. Please note that none of these terms is pejorative.

Approaching a choice of, say, five bed-ridden years with agonizing incurable bone cancer and a tenth of a second with a shotgun, any reasonable person facing this in isolation as a discrete dilemma would choose the latter. The complications come in only when you start considering things like the emotional impact on survivors, the idea, silly as it may be, of sin, and the value, or lack of it, of personal support networks to help you cope. Since male problem solving techniques taken as a generalization but a well established one will devalue things such as emotional impact and group sympathy as a response to insoluble difficulties, they are more likely to use detached logic to say that a brief life of useless agony is less beneficial to both self and others than a quick painless release.

[westerebus]

250. Very true. n/t

[geek tragedy]

168. this would be a manifestation of the patriarchy that those feminists

have been decrying for generations.

it does exist, and it hurts men and it hurts women.

it hurts men by placing false expectations on their behavior and even on their internal emotions and thoughts

[Whisp]

169. Find them, feel them, fuck them, forget them.

When I was in grade school that is what the boys used to say, and laugh and giggle. I guess it is what their dads and uncles and male relatives and friends passed onto them.

A 'female' was nothing more than an object to be put on a guy's penis, then thrown away.

I wonder about those boys sometimes, how their lives were when they grew up, maybe married. I guess this was a way for them to be 'toughtened up', the way the men in their lives taught them. I find that so tragically sad to have to act that out to prove yourself - I think that would make a person really angry eventually.

Men suicide because of madness, women because of sadness.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

177. variation of the one that was rampant with the Chappaquiddick fiasco -

Wine 'em, dine 'em, dick 'em and dunk 'em. That was a huge republican meme back in the day.

and they wonder why we suspect them to be ... uhm ...

bending to the right toward libertarian/republican ideals.

This is why.

[polly7]

218. Meh ....... I've known plenty of women who've said similar things.

Some people are just crude and rude, eh? What's it supposed to prove, with regard to Bonobo's OP?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

223. excuse me ... this is what I have to say to the OP

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4555979

[lumberjack_jeff]

216. Did you really just suggest that men commit suicide because they can't live with themselves...

...for being the substandard humans they are?

[Whisp]

219. I don't think it's natural to hate.

I don't think it is good for boys to be told to hate women and treat them like shit (or anyone to be taught to hate anyone else) - and I think somewhere along the line they may realize that, even subconsciously, and don't know what to do with all that bad 'training' they had.

Just giving my opinion here, no need to get defensive.

[DanTex]

217. A lot of boys who say that kind of stuff are doing it to impress other boys.

I don't think it's necessarily about their dads and male relatives. That doesn't make it any better, of course, but I think it comes more from the general culture rather than the family.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

174. I am sorry for your loss. My condolences to you, your family and your friends.

Suicide is devastating to the survivors. There are help groups available in your area, I am sure. Please contact one for support if you feel the need.

[HappyMe]

176. Mental health issues need to be seriously addressed.

The stigma of seeking treatment, and for men being labeled 'weak' for doing so HAS TO STOP.

[MicaelS]

187. Men get killed in the On The Job Accidents far more than women, too.

Ratio for the last few years is 92% men vs 8% women. Roughly 5,000 OTJ deaths per year.

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfch0009.pdf

[bettyellen]

214. a lot of people feel chewed up and spit out. I wonder about the shift towards younger suicides

Why do people feel so very hopeless at a much younger age compared to 50 years ago? Some combination of economics and changing social roles?

[Zorra]

221. Can you describe what being chewed up and spit out feels like?

[lumberjack_jeff]

224. The trick is learning how to be too tough to chew. n/t

[Zorra]

237. Maybe not being capable of learning how to do that is a major factor in male suicide.

Hopefully someday we will create a society where no one, male or female, has that expectation forced upon them.

What does it feel like to be chewed up and spit out?

[lumberjack_jeff]

238. It feels validating.

Anything worth saying is controversial.

[Gormy Cuss]

227. Paying attention to struggles unique to women is sorely lacking around here lately.

With that framework of intolerance towards women, it's no wonder that it's hard to put a focus on issues unique to men.

It's a shame really. Why men choose more effective means of suicide should be an appropriate discussion topic on DU.

[sibelian]

234. I attempted suicide myself, once, in my twenties.

I took an extremely large number of aspirin tablets. I had satisfied myself that they were sufficient to end my life. Further discussion with my GP after the event was over confirmed that it would have worked.

I had thought it through very carefully. I knew I didn't want to live anymore.

I'm only here now because a friend phoned up out of the blue saying they'd had this weird urge to phone me and didn't know why.

[Liberal_in_LA]

241. kick

[etherealtruth]

246. Suicide is horrific

[idendoit]

248. Too simplistic. Check out the CDC stats.

Especially the confidence interval, which plays into the assumption that there even was a suicide. Much higher for women. Check out areas of the country, too.

cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6217a1.htm?s_cid=mm6217a1_w#tab2

[lumberjack_jeff]

252. The link you (sorta) posted is limited to people 35 and over.

Despite that limitation, it still shows that even among this cherry-picked demographic, 70% of suicides are men.