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steve2470

(37,457 posts)
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 04:56 PM Feb 2014

Ukraine says Russia follows pre-Georgia war scenario in Crimea

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/28/ukraine-crisis-turchinov-idUSL6N0LX4JU20140228

Feb 28 (Reuters) - Ukraine's acting president accused Russia of open aggression on Friday and said it was provoking his country in the same way as it had Georgia before going to war in 2008.

Urging President Vladimir Putin to stop "provocations" in Ukraine's Russian-speaking Crimea, Oleksander Turchinov recalled Russia's intervention in Georgia over breakaway Abkhazia and South Ossetia, which have large ethnic Russian populations.

Russia's Black Sea fleet has a base in the Crimean port city of Sevastopol.

"Russia has sent forces into Crimea ... they are working on scenarios which are fully analogous with Abkhazia, when having initiated a military conflict, they started to annex the territory," Turchinov said in televised comments.
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Ukraine says Russia follows pre-Georgia war scenario in Crimea (Original Post) steve2470 Feb 2014 OP
Do we care if Russia takes the Crimea? reformist2 Feb 2014 #1
I doubt anyone will do anything meaningful about it. No one wants war over it, TwilightGardener Feb 2014 #2
I hope we care if any country uses force to take part of another country. pampango Feb 2014 #3
In my view, it's historically Russia's, so they can take it back, imo. reformist2 Feb 2014 #4
Well, then you won't mind losing the American Southwest to Spain, right? TwilightGardener Feb 2014 #5
Mexico, hey we get the roads and the land of the mouse! nadinbrzezinski Feb 2014 #17
Alaska was historically Russia's. Any thoughts on that? n/t pampango Feb 2014 #7
Wow, that's the most WTF argument I've heard in a long time. NT Adrahil Feb 2014 #8
Really? To pretend as if the borders defined in 1918, 1945 or whenever are sacroscanct, is absurd. reformist2 Feb 2014 #14
Russia legally ceded Crimea to Ukraine. Adrahil Feb 2014 #16
Do you live in any part of the United States? 11 Bravo Feb 2014 #11
Hell yes. Despite all the misinformation, Crimea is only 58.3% ethnic Russians, and according to a okaawhatever Feb 2014 #12
If we're going by loyalty to Russia, the present Ukraine ought to break in half. reformist2 Feb 2014 #15
As Democrats, don't we support self-determination? Woodrow Wilson was a notable Democratic President FarCenter Feb 2014 #13
that is a ridiculous question Pretzel_Warrior Feb 2014 #19
depends if we care about treaties. dixiegrrrrl Feb 2014 #21
Perhaps there is a part of Russia that would like to join the Ukraine. kiranon Feb 2014 #6
US involved in Georgia bull crap, Russia did not provoke that fight !!! uponit7771 Feb 2014 #9
WTF? nice revisionist history Pretzel_Warrior Feb 2014 #18
Sounds like a quarrel that the USA would be wise to stay out of. Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2014 #10
We are obligated by treaty to protect Ukraine... Adrahil Feb 2014 #22
Should we honor it? Like we did this one? Tierra_y_Libertad Feb 2014 #24
The Crimea should be able to determine its own fate LittleBlue Feb 2014 #20
Sorry. Jake Stern Feb 2014 #23

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
2. I doubt anyone will do anything meaningful about it. No one wants war over it,
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 05:05 PM
Feb 2014

except maybe Ukraine, and they're not really in that position--plus the population there seems pro-Russian, most of them. Putin appears to be losing the majority of the country to Europe, when he had hoped to make it part of a bloc of Eurasian partners, so the world might let him have it as sort of a consolation prize. We'll see. Not saying it's right, mind you.

pampango

(24,692 posts)
3. I hope we care if any country uses force to take part of another country.
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 05:05 PM
Feb 2014

I hope that the world would care if the US took the Cuban province around Guantanamo.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
17. Mexico, hey we get the roads and the land of the mouse!
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:13 PM
Feb 2014

YEEEHAAWWW!!!!

Yes, that joke is older than most Posters, including me, on this site.

reformist2

(9,841 posts)
14. Really? To pretend as if the borders defined in 1918, 1945 or whenever are sacroscanct, is absurd.
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:05 PM
Feb 2014

Many of the borders as they are defined today are simply wrong - especially in the Slavic part of the world.
 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
16. Russia legally ceded Crimea to Ukraine.
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:10 PM
Feb 2014

To then say they can just take it back because they previously had it is just plain ridiculous. The same argument could apply to Alaska.

11 Bravo

(23,926 posts)
11. Do you live in any part of the United States?
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 05:46 PM
Feb 2014

Because I hate to break it to you, but history did NOT begin 238 years ago.

okaawhatever

(9,462 posts)
12. Hell yes. Despite all the misinformation, Crimea is only 58.3% ethnic Russians, and according to a
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 05:50 PM
Feb 2014

survey in 2011 by Razumkov Center 71.3% consider Ukraine their motherland. 77% speak Russian (many are bilingual) , but the Crimean Tatars speak Russian and their loyalties are definitely not with Russia. IMHO, the Crimean residents are being used as pawns to accomplish Putin's end game of taking Crimea back.

 

FarCenter

(19,429 posts)
13. As Democrats, don't we support self-determination? Woodrow Wilson was a notable Democratic President
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 05:53 PM
Feb 2014

So if a majority of the population of Crimea want to disassociate from Ukraine and either be independent or associate with Russia, we should support them.

Same for the Flemings, Scots, Basques, Catalonians, etc.

What point is served by keeping people who don't want to be together in the same country? The Czechs and Slovaks did the split the right way. Denmark, Norway and Sweden seem happier than they were as fewer countries. The Serbs and Croats are amiable in their own countries, while Bosnia is still miserable.

dixiegrrrrl

(60,010 posts)
21. depends if we care about treaties.
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:38 PM
Feb 2014

DU's Pampango posted this:
In 1994 Russia, the US and the UK guaranteed Ukraine's "existing borders, sovereignty

THIS, most importantly:

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024581758

So there is one reason to care.
Not to mention it is a key country in the on-going Grand Chessboard of oil/currency wars.

kiranon

(1,727 posts)
6. Perhaps there is a part of Russia that would like to join the Ukraine.
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 05:22 PM
Feb 2014

They could swap land. Like that could happen. Sarcasm alert. It is an armed takeover clear and simple of an ethnically Russian area. Austria was a German speaking and culturally Germanic area when Germany took it over in a so called arrangement. Won't go to war over it but US and NATO should do something - remove Russia from something. Immediately bring the Ukraine into the EU or other trade group. Something that will make the Russians reconsider their actions.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
22. We are obligated by treaty to protect Ukraine...
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:42 PM
Feb 2014

... as part of a treaty whereby agreed Ukraine to give up it's old Soviet Nukes.

 

Tierra_y_Libertad

(50,414 posts)
24. Should we honor it? Like we did this one?
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 09:53 PM
Feb 2014
https://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/pentagon4/ps11.htm

Legal Memorandum Prepared by Leonard C. Meeker, State Department Legal Advisor, for Submission to the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, March 4, 1966, "The Legality of United States Participation in the Defense of Viet-Nam"; Department of State Bulletin, March 28, 1966, pp. 15-16

* * *

"V. CONCLUSION

"South Viet-Nam is being subjected to armed attack by Communist North Viet-Nam, through the infiltration of armed personnel, military equipment, and
regular combat units. International law recognizes the right of individual and collective self-defense against armed attack. South Viet-Nam, and the United States upon the request of South Viet-Nam, are engaged in such collective defense of the South. Their actions are in conformity with international law and with the Charter of the United Nations. The fact that South Viet-Nam has been precluded by Soviet veto from becoming a member of the United Nations and the fact that South Viet-Nam is a zone of a temporarily divided state in no way diminish the right of collective defense of South Viet-Nam.

"The United States has commitments to assist South Viet-Nam in defending itself against Communist aggression from the North. The United States gave undertakings to this effect at the conclusion of the Geneva conference in 1954. Later that year the United States undertook an international obligation in the SEATO treaty to defend South Viet-Nam against Communist armed aggression. And during the past decade the United States has given additional assurances to the South Vietnamese Government.

"The Geneva accords of 1954 provided for a cease-fire and regroupment of contending forces, a division of Viet-Nam into two zones, and a prohibition on the use of either zone for the resumption of hostilities or to 'further an aggressive policy.' From the beginning, North Viet-Nam violated the Geneva accords through a systematic effort to gain control of South Viet-Nam by force. In the light of these progressive North Vietnamese violations, the introduction into South Viet-Nam beginning in late 1961 of substantial United States military equipment and personnel, to assist in the defense of the South, was fully justified; substantial breach of an international agreement by one side permits the other side to suspend performance of corresponding obligations under the agreement. South Viet-Nam was justified in refusing to implement the provisions of the Geneva accords calling for reunification through free elections throughout Viet-Nam since the Communist regime in North Viet-Nam created conditions in the North that made free elections entirely impossible.

"The President of the United States has full authority to commit United States forces in the collective defense of South Viet-Nam. This authority stems from the constitutional powers of the President. However, it is not necessary to rely on the Constitution alone as the source of the President's authority, since the SEATO treaty-advised and consented to by the Senate and forming part of the law of the land-sets forth a United States commitment to defend South Viet-Nam against armed attack, and since the Congress--in the joint resolution of August 10, 1964, and in authorization and appropriations acts for support of the U.S. military effort in Viet-Nam--has given its approval and support to the President's actions. United States actions in Viet-Nam, taken by the President and approved by the Congress, do not require any declaration of war, as shown by a long line of precedents for the use of United States armed forces abroad in the absence of any congressional declaration of war."
 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
20. The Crimea should be able to determine its own fate
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:20 PM
Feb 2014

Self-determinism is most important here. If it wants to be part of Russia, that's fine with me.

Jake Stern

(3,145 posts)
23. Sorry.
Fri Feb 28, 2014, 07:25 PM
Feb 2014

I can't sympathize with hard rightists who overthrew a president that balked at the EU's demands for "reforms" (read: austerity) and then packed the cabinet with members of a far right party founded by Neo-Nazis.

The EU has a perverse fetish for austerity so I can understand turning toward Russia.






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