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Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 04:59 AM Mar 2014

“No business which depends for existence.........

“No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country.”



“All but the hopelessly reactionary will agree that to conserve our primary resources of man power, government must have some control over maximum hours, minimum wages, the evil of child labor and the exploitation of unorganized labor.”





































(1933, Statement on National Industrial Recovery Act)



(1937, Message to Congress upon introduction of the Fair Labor Standards Act)







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Diclotican

(5,095 posts)
2. Ichingcarpenter
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 06:49 AM
Mar 2014

Ichingcarpenter

80 year after he told it - it is still as true as it was back then - a sad state of affairs I would say

Diclotican

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
3. K&R
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 06:57 AM
Mar 2014

This great man, no doubt, started rolling in his grave about 43 years ago: when Lewis Powell penned his infamous "Powell Memo" in 1971. Thank you, FDR, for standing up for the people of my parents and grandparents generation during the Great Depression. They spoke fondly of you often all through their lives.

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
4. I don't think that "offering very low wages is evil" makes sense.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 06:59 AM
Mar 2014

I originally wrote this post based on the view that that was the position you were putting forward; having reread your post I'm not sure it is, but here's an attack on that philosophy anyhow:



I think that it's based on the fallacy that offering people a job under poor working conditions, *which they are free to take or leave*, is harming them. It's not, it's actively helping them, more than not offering them a job is, it's just not helping them very much.

If someone offers me a job screwing lids onto toothpaste tubes for 20 hours a day for thruppence hapenny, they haven't hurt me in the slightest, because I can just turn them down. A job on less than a "living wage" is still often better than no job at all.



The actual reason a minimum wage is a good idea is not nearly so simplistic, and doesn't make a good slogan.



An economic transaction occurs when, and only when, I have something (in this case labour, but it could be anything) which is worth more to you than to me. You give me an amount of money somewhere between it's value to me, and its value to you, and both of us gain. If you offer less than it's worth to me, I just turn your offer down, and obviously you won't offer more than it's worth to me.

That region between my goods' value to me, and its value to you, is called the "core" of the transaction, and how it gets split is hard for economists to model. The splitting of it determines how much of the benefit of the transaction comes to me, and how much goes to you.

The benefit of a minimum wage is that it ensures that more of the core of an employer-employee transaction goes to the employee, and less to the employer. The potential disadvantage is that if you set it above the value of labour to the employer - that is, outside the core - then they'll stop employing, and both they and their would-be employee suffer from losing out on a potentially mutually beneficial transaction. But while it's inside the core, it's doing good, and empirical evidence suggests that the impact on employment figures of minimum wages is not large.



There's absolutely nothing immoral about offering to employ people in appalling conditions, *provided* they can just turn you down. The argument for a minimum wage is *not* that it's punishing wicked exploitative employers, it's that coercing employers who are already helping the poor a little by offering them jobs on poor terms to help them still more by offering them jobs on less poor terms is a good thing.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
5. If you need to take care of yourself and your family you are *not* in a position
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 07:26 AM
Mar 2014

to turn down any employment.

And there absolutely is something immoral about offering to employ people in appalling conditions. It's right there in your statement, "appalling". CEOs are making so much money and the workers are not even making enough to get by without working more than one job. That is immoral.

CEOs and company owners used to make 42 times as much as workers, now I don't know what it is but it's in the thousands iirc. That is immoral.

Another reason it is immoral is that these same companies are getting subsidies and they are not passing it on to the employees. They won't employ people full time so as to not give them benefits so the tax payers end up paying for their hospital visits. All the while the business is making enormous profits and paying ginormous salaries to the CEOs. That is immoral.

Walmart had a food drive for their employees! That is immoral.

Also, evidence shows that paying a good minimum wage or a living wage is good for all involved. It's not bad for the business since the workers have more to spend.



Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
6. I'm afraid the first part of that makes no sense at all.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 07:32 AM
Mar 2014

If someone is so poor that they're not in a position to turn down employment, then offering them any job - even a poorly paid one - is doing more to help them than not offering them a job.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
7. You aren't taking into account that the companies can well afford to up the pay
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 07:42 AM
Mar 2014

at least 10 fold. So it is immoral for them not to.

Paying people just barely enough to survive, making them work in appalling conditions where they will get sick and live a short life or go bankrupt trying to pay medical bills is a way to keep people too scared to speak out. When people are fighting for work they take what they can get. If you keep the jobs scarce you can dictate how low the pay will be since people are scrambling for the jobs.

Keeping people in survival mode ensures that they will not stand up to you, that they will not organize as they will be in fear of losing their job.

Sorry, but that sort of thinking is basically saying the worker should be grateful for whatever their overlords deem reasonable. That is immoral. The overlords have multiple mansions, yachts, cars... it is immoral to take that much more money than the people who make you what you are.

I may be rambling a bit, it's almost 4am and I really should go to bed.

 

Glitterati

(3,182 posts)
9. Here's why that is incorrect
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 08:30 AM
Mar 2014

Someone who has no job qualifies for assistance such as food stamps and rent assistance. Minimally, they can put food on the table and a roof over their head.

If you give them a job paying them $4.00/hr they lose ALL assistance. Your lousy job means they can't pay rent or buy groceries. If they are lucky, they MIGHT be able to pay the transportation costs to get to and from that lousy job.

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
12. Wage Slavery is what you are talking about?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:17 PM
Mar 2014

Cicero wrote in his De Officiis that

whoever gives his labor for money sells himself and puts himself in the rank of slaves.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_slavery


Doesn't sound like what FDR called a 'living wage'

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
13. Wage slavery is a contradiction in terms.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:49 PM
Mar 2014

Slavery is when you get someone to work for you by threatening to make their life worse if they don't, rather than by offering to make it better if they do.

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
15. The notion of wage slavery, taken reasonably, is actually rather difficult to refute
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 03:50 PM
Mar 2014

. The idea that we are in an entirely different social position to chattel slaves is based upon the assumption of our freedom. But this sense of freedom is an illusion which rests upon the contradiction between law and reality. The law grants us personal liberties, and we therefore have the right to make our own decisions: where to live; who to work for; or whether to work at all. But underlying this veil of freedom are the real, material, physical facts, and they run as such: you can only live where you can afford to live; you can only work for someone who will willingly employ you; and while you are under no legal obligation to work for anyone at all, you will find it a struggle to live while not doing so. The welfare state will be your (miserable) safety net, but only as long as you abide by the contract agreeing to actively seek employment.

Whether we choose the wages system or not, we are in reality bound to it, and within this system we enter into contracts with employers whereby the value we create for them is more than the value we receive in wages, and thus they make a profit through our exploitation. We are not by law bound to a single individual, but, in fact, to the capitalist class as a whole. With the acknowledgment of these simple truths, the illusive veil of freedom is dissolved, and laid bare is the reality in which we are still in chains.

Such a strong feeling of personal aversion to claims of wage slavery no doubt stems from a sense of pride. But this objection to the mere notion of wage-slavery only acts to perpetuate the reality of the condition: people’s misplaced sense of pride paradoxically serves to maintain their humiliating position. Imagine, of those chattel slaves who fought for political emancipation, if they had instead simply denied the existence of slavery. But it’s difficult to express the common sense behind, and the political importance of, the term ‘wage-slavery’ when somebody has already decided that what you’re saying is offensive.


Noam Chomsky: Wage Slavery = Chattle Slavery






According to free market capitalists employment is voluntary. They argue that it is a mutually beneficial free agreement between owner and worker. They argue that employment would only be involuntary if it was the result of direct force. For instance an employer who gave his workers the choice between working in awful conditions or being shot to death by his private security guards would be rightly condemned.Yet we are told that it is not an act of aggression for a capitalist to hire workers and force them to work under awful conditions by giving them a choice between having a job and being unemployed. The result of being unemployed would be poverty and starvation as the worker would lack the income to pay for his survival by buying food. In both examples the worker is given the choice between death and work. In the 1st instance the threat of death is direct and immediate while in the 2nd the threat of death is the indirect and prolonged threat of starvation. Despite these differences the threats are nonetheless similar as the end result is the same. To quote Karl Marx ”He can work only with their permission, hence live only with their permission.”

An advocate of capitalism can respond by crying out “it’s voluntary, the worker can leave whenever he wants”. This argument makes a categorical error when it conflates rights with means. It is true that the worker has the right to leave the job but importantly the worker lacks the means. This is because in order to survive the worker must have an income, from this it follows that the worker labours under these awful conditions only due to the realisation that the alternative is starvation for himself and his family or working for another boss.

Indeed when a free market capitalist responds by arguing that you are free to work for another boss if you dislike your current one they are not arguing for liberty as they falsely proclaim. This is because liberty is not the capacity to choose between masters but is instead the absence of masters, it is autonomy over one’s self. The ability to choose a new master is not freedom but is instead a form of democratic tyranny as rather than being forced to accept the will of one ruler you are given the choice between several different rulers.

In response it may be argued that market competition will result in employers treating their workers better in order to attract more and better workers. This however completely misses the point. The issue is not whether your master is nice or nasty, the issue is that you have a master in the first place. We would not attempt to justify chattel slavery by arguing that market pressures to improve productivity would result in the slave master giving his slaves a better diet and living quarters. Likewise we cannot justify wage slavery by arguing for the benevolent capitalist. To quote ‘Tolstoy, “the liberal capitalist is like a kind donkey owner. He will do everything for the donkey — care for it, feed it, wash it. Everything except get off its back!”. Thus the worker’s freedom is freedom only to rent himself out to an employer or freedom to starve to death.

To quote Alexander Berkman at length

“The law says your employer does not steal anything from you, because it is done with your consent. You have agreed to work for your boss for certain pay, he to have all that you produce …

But did you really consent?

When the highway man holds his gun to your head, you turn your valuables over to him. You ‘consent’ all right, but you do so because you cannot help yourself, because you are compelled by his gun.

“Are you not compelled to work for an employer? Your need compels you just as the highwayman’s gun. You must live … You can’t work for yourself … The factories, machinery, and tools belong to the employing class, so you must hire yourself out to that class in order to work and live. Whatever you work at, whoever your employer may be, it always comes to the same: you must workfor him. You can’t help yourself. You are compelled.”


A free market capitalist can respond by arguing that if the threat of starvation makes working for a boss involuntary then it follows that choosing to eat is an involuntary action as you eat only to avoid starvation and malnutrition. If we accept that eating food does not inhibit our freedom despite being involuntary it follows that working for a capitalist does not inhibits our freedom either.

This argument is, however, absurd as it does not compare like with like. This is because discussions of freedom are only concerned with what humans are capable of doing. For instance an individual lacking the ability to grow wings and fly does not inhibit his freedom as he is not biologically capable of performing this action. His freedom would only be inhibited if he was capable of growing wings and flying but not allowed to do so. Therefore, while eating food is involuntary (as we do not have a choice in the matter unless we have suicidal tendencies) it does not inhibit our freedom as we are not capable of not eating food and continuing to survive. The same cannot be said of working for a boss. This is because wage slavery is not rooted in the biology of human beings but is instead the result of the private ownership of the means of production. The social relationship between employers and employees, unlike our biologically need for nutrients, is something which can be changed and abolished. Indeed many societies have operated without such a relationship. For instance during the Spanish Revolution of 1936-39 wage slavery was abolished and anarcho-syndicalism was put into practise. Therefore, the apparent choice workers make when they work for a boss is both involuntary and an inhibitor of freedom.

Stargazer99

(2,599 posts)
8. You have never been in the "lower classes" permanently
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 08:26 AM
Mar 2014

To tolerate a system that destroys the human spirit is evil

Stargazer99

(2,599 posts)
10. What makes you think paying an employee not enough to live is moral?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 08:44 AM
Mar 2014

slavery paid just enough to survive physically and that is what is happening to many
Apparently human suffering is fine as long as it is paid enough to breathe
And poor people suffer

Donald Ian Rankin

(13,598 posts)
11. What makes you think not employing someone at all is moral?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 08:56 AM
Mar 2014

If you are starving, and one person offers you a crap job and the other doesn't offer you a job, the former is doing more to help you than the latter - yet, by your logic, the former is acting immorally and the latter is not.

The obligation to offer charity to those who need it is nothing to do with whether or not you employ them. The moral obligation employers have towards their employees is the same obligation everyone has to everyone else: 1) to pay taxes that will go to fund unemployment benefit if they choose not to work, and 2) to abide by the law, including minimum wage laws, in their dealings.

cui bono

(19,926 posts)
14. That's a false choice. Giving them no job or giving them a shitty job.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 03:39 PM
Mar 2014

The third and moral choice is giving them a job that pays well with benefits and that doesn't kill them physically.

Your wording of "taxes that will go to fund unemployment benefit if they choose not to work" speaks volumes and says you think anyone who is unemployed "chooses" not to work. So they "choose" to get unemployment or food stamps. In some circles people who feel that way call the unfortunate people who find themselves unemployed "takers".

The real "takers" are the ones who refuse to pay a living wage even when they themselves make multi-millions per year.

Also what you speak of in your last statement is the legal obligation. That is no where near the moral obligation. That's why many people are trying to pass a minimum wage law. Because it's the moral thing to do.

onethatcares

(16,185 posts)
16. somewhere I read, or heard
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 05:21 PM
Mar 2014

that the only reason an employer will pay the minimum wage is because he can't get away with paying less.

After over 40 years trodding out the grist, I find that to be true.

Employers don't hire someone out of charity, the only reason is that they have too much demand and are

too lazy to pitch in and get their hands dirty.

When you have a group of employers that will rig the game, keep wages low and not bargain or destroy unions, you

have a conspiracy of greed. When you have a government that goes along with that, you have fascism.

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