General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAbout that cross at Ground Zero...
The cross that is currently being discussed and which some claim was not found "in situ" but was actually fashioned out of wreckage is NOT the one shown in the below photo as some have claimed.
Original Photo in the wreckage:
Afterwards:
Oh, and as for it not being a religious symbol, just a piece of debris that "tells the story":
hack89
(39,171 posts)The cross was part of the Ground zero landscape for nearly a decade and became part of the 911 story. It belongs at the memorial.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)He also says don't post photos of it in the wreckage to "prove" that that is what it was originally like when you are actually posting a photo of some other piece of debris.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)It gives millions of people comfort and I fail to see the harm it causes someone like you.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I happen to know (from personal experience) that seeing a cross in a public space makes some people feel isolated at best and threatened at worst.
That doesn't seem to be something in your experience, so I guess you should listen to people who DO have it in their experience.
I mean, you don't want people to feel ostracized and threatened by religious symbols near 9/11, do you?
I mean, you DO know that religion is what was behind it, right? And that the whole Christian VS> Muslim thing is sort of the cause of lots of murder and death-dealing, right? And that its continuation at the site of a religiously inspired terrorist act might be a problem for some not of that faith, right?
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)I am glad it is staying. It gives millions hope. What a great tribute.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It would give even MORE hope.
I was just being snarky.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)I got it. No rational discussion possible. If a cross/menorah/ Islamic crescent in a public space makes people feel isolated, then it seems the people that feel isolated should talk to someone. This symbol gives tens of millions of Americans comfort. Good enough for me to keep it there.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It's routine even on DU.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)But the joyless existence of certain atheists who can't seem to help themselves and be seen as rational, empathic people is something I am continuously surprised by. Sometimes you have to compromise to get people to see that you aren't the bad guys. And I can't think of an easier goal for atheists than the allow this to happen without protest. I swear they are their own worst enemy sometimes.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)how is that even remotely an attack? That is a factual observation backed by quite a few posts in this thread alone.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Analyst of what, exactly? It must not be anything pertaining to mathematics.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)and the Middle East
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Religion only breeds happiness as evidenced by Flagellants...
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)gives me peace and love and tolerance of others (even humorless atheists) and a desire for all people to get along. Jesus Christ is my savior and all is love. YMMV.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Are you really just pulling my leg?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Which is funny as hell..
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)isn't it?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)But your routine could use a little polishing, you went a bit far over the top.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)agreeing or disagreeing with me has nothing to do with it.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Doctor Phil would be jealous.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)just the joyless ones. They are easy to spot, they want to tear down a symbol that gives comfort to tens and tens of millions of people because they don't like it. Kinda easy to spot the joyless ones.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)This whole argument is over adding a plaque to honor those of other religions and no religion who also died on 9/11.
When the atheist group was ignored in their request for a plaque they launched this lawsuit and now they are getting attention.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)of course I care about the people of other faiths who died, but the OP hurled a grenade in here and is surprised there is push back. That is all I care about right this second.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)If we are going to argue, why can't it be about documented facts?
The two pictures showed different pieces of metal shaped like a religious symbol.
The first one had been smugly posted as *the* cross as found in situ. Evidently it wasn't.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)could care less what the OP thought, they wanted to cause trouble, so I give two shits what their original point was. Being a bomb thrower leads to people being less than friendly.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Matthew 5:44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)for everyone, even the joyless bomb throwers. That doesn't mean I have to be polite to disruptors however.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)But you've been busted..
LostOne4Ever
(9,290 posts)-Matthew 7:12
Soooo you want us to be rude to you and accuse you of being joyless?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)treestar
(82,383 posts)The Washington Monument makes me feel "isolated" so let's take it down.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Emotions don't have points, they are unconscious reactions to stimuli.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Why put up any monuments at all? Somebody will feel bad.
If it is not the government, then Christians can put monuments up too. Why feed into their already absurd sense of persecution?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)The atheist group wished to pay their own money to put a plaque honoring the non-Christian victims on 9/11, they weren't even denied, they were ignored.
One side wants inclusiveness and the other side is Hell-Bent on remaining exclusive, their position is that Christians are the only ones who were emotionally harmed on 9/11 and the only group even needing anything to help them deal with the tragedy.
2banon
(7,321 posts)that's why it's impossible to have a rational discussion regarding anything based on religious beliefs.
To that point, this entire discussion should be in the religious forum imo.
Lost_Count
(555 posts)We wouldn't want to have something in public that could potentially cause someone anxiety...
However shall they survive?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Why? Precisely because it would cause anxiety.
Now, you may next say that you WOULD advocate for such a symbol. And that may or may not be an honest portrayal of your opinion, BUT many would be against it for the same reasons you pooh-pooh.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)No I would not advocate a symbol of the faith that made 9/11 happen. Strawman argument denied
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)tolerance of others and my own moral compass. But I do like the modified Godwin's law..........
HE SAID SOMETHING WE DISAGREE WITH, HE IS EVIL.....
Please keep showing your intolerance and how my initial judgement of you was correct.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)I have no talking points. I have my faith and my love for humanity through Christ. That is all.
But again keep using that modified Godwin's.....it proves my point about humorless intolerance.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)people who were Muslims. That is not in dispute unless you are a loose change nut job and then we can stop talking right now.
Islam is not to blame, 19 Muslims are to blame however. Well a lot more than 19 Muslims, but 19 Muslims carried out the attack.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)IOW, you said "Islam made 9/11 happen."
Precisely the kind of "tolerance" that makes some of us puke.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)True Story.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Do you think we're stupid? You blamed 9/11 on Islam. Have a little courage in your conviction for once and just own what you said.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)But keep trying.
I have explained what I said, but you want to try and pummel me with your interpretation of my words. Good luck with that.
Marr
(20,317 posts)You plainly blamed the attacks on Islam. C'mon.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)As a testimony to your disgusting xenophobia.
uppityperson
(115,679 posts)Marr
(20,317 posts)I was a little concerned that it might be viewed as a symbol of religious war, but hearing you support it for just that reason removes all doubt.
I mean, you do realize the attackers would say that *Christianity* caused that attack, right? I'm not saying I agree with them, only that many of us, most of us, I suspect, don't care to participate in a new crusade. If you do, fantastic-- but keep it out of the public space.
Lost_Count
(555 posts)... That was both dedicated to the reason the buildings were brought down and was also inspiring to the masses to the point where it is recognized 13 years later.
treestar
(82,383 posts)And not a reason to not have any crosses out there publicly. If everyone's sensibilities were checked in this matter, nothing could be out in the public. Somebody can be upset by just about anything.
There was a big chair in Central Park and it may still be there. It was painted red. That might have reminded some people of upsetting times.
The Mona Lisa might be upsetting to somebody.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)I've lived all over the world and been exposed to many religions. I don't feel threatened by them at all. I find some interesting, some amusing, some a bit irritating...but they don't make me feel "isolated" even if I'm the only one in the room who doesn't know the players without a scorecard.
I guess that has something to do with being raised by folks who taught me to be respectful of others, even if their views differed from mine, and to be interested in learning about differences rather than fearful of them.
And if you can feel "ostracized and threatened" by religious symbols, you've got issues. Do black cats and ladders have a similar effect? Boy/Girl Scout badges? Kiwanis Club tie tacks? Moose Lodge hats? Basically, religions are just clubs. No one's forcing you to join, even if you like to pretend they are.
And you don't have a "right" to go through life un-offended. Personally, I find ostentatious, complicated memorials offensive. That's a minority view in this situation, so I'm gonna put on my Big Kid Pants and suck it up, and not berate people who like the concept and find something worthy in it. Different strokes, and all that. Not everything in the world is designed to suit meeeeeeeeee!! I know how to solve my problem, and that's avoid the location. You could do likewise, or simply avert your gaze when you come across that awful thing that disturbs you so.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)symbols..
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It seems redundant.
Yes, you don't know about me but now you're going to share YOUR personal viewpoint? Okay.... sure. But don't you understand that nobody knows nothing about nobody? That's why it is called a personal viewpoint aka opinion.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Although I admit it goes well with your shrug smilie.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)mean it as an affront to you, if that's what you're thinking.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Now me sad...and jealous.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It's enough to make me want to move back to America.
My retirement plan is smoking and gardening and listening to music.
Give me a wood stove and a deep bath and I will be as happy as a pig in shit.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)I am assuming it's not no easy to get an 1/8th there.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Small island.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)Scruffy Rumbler
(961 posts)It is a little post traumatic stress trigger after all the crap I and others have had to suffer at the hands of the faithful. I also have a problem with all the crosses people put up where someone has died from an accident. How long do we need crosses and plastic flowers every where?
Thanks for stating it so clearly!
DefenseLawyer
(11,101 posts)And doesn't harm anyone else? Just curious. It would seem to me that allowing the state to endorse Christianity any time it "gives comfort" to someone is not much of a barrier.
Warpy
(111,339 posts)They're creating a hostile memorial to all the Jews and Muslims who died that day and both groups were heavily represented.
They need to put that thing on its side, maybe, to defuse the religious symbolism. The problem is that too many Christians in this country think they're the only ones here.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)n/t
Marr
(20,317 posts)NoGOPZone
(2,971 posts)as long as its mounting position is inverted. No one should mind since its not a religious symbol.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Nay
(12,051 posts)and see just exactly how many Christians still think everything's fine and it's 'only a piece of wreckage.'
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)uppityperson
(115,679 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)And therefore that it belongs in the memorial museum.
What the atheists miss is that context is everything. It is not going to be displayed with a banner reading "Our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God"; it is going to be displayed with a description of what it is and how it comforted many people in the aftermath of the tragedy. If anyone is made "uncomfortable" by this, the problem is with them, not with the display.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)Atheists don't need to man the ramparts for every single issue. It gives millions comfort, it harms no one, and it is seen as a symbol from a disaster......Other than offending a very small group who can't seem to find joy in something that inspired millions, I can't see the problem.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Your continual ignoring of the point makes your agenda more apparent.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)It prove, in anything, it is controversial. I just find it totally stupid. I am not offended by christian idolatry, in general, but really dislike when it is sanctioned at any government level. And, it is much worse when done at the exclusive of other religions or religious symbols.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)It was quite prominent and visible from Church Street from the first days after the attack, through the demolition and after that. For everyone that is uncomfortable with it (like you), there are probably thousands for whom it brings comfort. In a situation like that, I would think that a sensitive and caring minority would stand aside and let the majority take what comfort they can.
840high
(17,196 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)They are not the same.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Same metal maybe but not original.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Was this monument/debris/cross something "pulled miraculously" from the wreckage or was it created?
Does it matter? Yes. I am against it either way, but some here have defended it by suggesting that it was not cut into that shape but was spontaneously created as is. They posted the photos to prove it so and so I am debunking that defense.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)You appear to have posted the wrong photo. Which explains the difference.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)This is the cross beam which was used for the display
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It makes no difference to me, though, whether it was found as is or not.
It was something chosen from among tens of thousands of other debris because it was shaped like a cross.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)It's that other religious or non-religious displays are not being allowed in.
There is however a question of historical importance. If the cross was on display at the sight for a long time, and many people did take comfort in it and saw it as symbolic of the tragedy, then it is no longer simply a religious symbol. It has contemporary historical significance to the tragedy.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,290 posts)be a part of the continuing evolution of the history of the event?
On (insert whatever day or month of 2014) nonbelievers posted a plaque honoring their dead and wounded from 9/11 so as to have a symbol from which to take comfort.
uppityperson
(115,679 posts)make it into as Fundamentalism is the problem. No matter the creed or sect.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)I worked there until June 2008 and I saw the cross almost every day. The cross in the pictures looks like the real cross to me, but in any case, the real cross belongs at the memorial.
If there is a bona fide question as to the authenticity of the cross at the memorial, that should resolved. As to whether the 9/11 cross belongs there, that question is not open to debate, at least not in my mind.
On edit, the two crosses are not the same. The second picture looks like the cross that stood for years at the pit. Given the amount of wreckage that was there, it's entirely possible that more than fragment of structural steel was found that was in the shape of a cross. There is no question, however, that a cross made of structural steel from the WTC stood at the site for years. That cross belongs at the memorial.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)badtoworse
(5,957 posts)In that context, my personal beliefs are no more relevant than those of the atheist who, for purely selfish reasons, would object to the cross being at the memorial.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Especially if the argument is that many people took comfort in the symbol following the attacks. Who actually took comfort in it? Was it a body of Christians because that doesn't counter the argument that it's a religious symbol.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)The web of the vertical I-beam is oriented 90 degrees away from the horizontal I-beam in one picture and parallel to the horizontal I-beam in the other picture.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Whether found or created, it was chosen, by Christians, because it reminded them of something that is an icon in THEIR religion. The ritual attention they give it is THEIR issue. It is a religious issue. Go. Find comfort. But do it in a church.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)When in actuality you simply posted the wrong photo by mistake. If you have another argument, it was auxiliary to the point of the OP. So it does make a difference.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)A DUer arguing for the cross remaining..
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It doesn't matter if the cross was found or created. It was chosen to be given ritual attention because it was a cross, a religious symbol for a majority of people in the US.
Having said that, it is at a sight where religious symbols are PARTICULARLY DANGEROUS AND INFLAMMATORY since religion was behind the terrorist act.
The long war between the Christians and the Muslim was the cause of the deaths of many who want nothing to do with that silliness.
Jews, Muslims, Hindus and others who were victims on that day should not have to pay for the upkeep of a religious symbol not should they have it thrust in their face. It belongs in a church or possibly a museum.
That is my argument.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Are we now not going to be able to say the religion of those who died?
I am in favor of commissioning some sort of committee to create religious memorials for all relevant religions and non-religious entities.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Sure, why not. I'm not against that, I guess. Except I worry about the "relevant" religion part.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)and should be displayed. If anyone is so bothered by the sight of an inanimate object commonly seen every day in our society I would suggest counseling as they have some serious issues. Part of life is ignoring what you don't like or what you dont believe in. nowadays many people think they have the right not to be offended, it just doesn't exist. Live and let live makes life so much better.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Should those who don't like seeing swastikas get "counseling"?
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Some people find it offensive for some strange reason despite the fact it's common.
Should they get counseling?
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Every day objects that aren't symbols of white supremacy..... you kniw exactly what I mean.... some streets have a church on every block.....
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Everywhere you go there's the evidence of Christan supremacy..
You'll never get it.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)in church I have never seen or heard hate. You everyday Christian isn't a supremacist...fact is most of the congregation of the church I go to isn't white. ...every mass is attended by a diverse group.
I am done..thus isn't going anywhere.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)And then are miffed when I call you on them.
Some people who use the cross as a symbol of their ethos are hateful toward anyone not of their particular philosophical bent, not everyone can divorce their feelings about the hate those people spread from the symbol they use.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)just like not all Muslims are terrorists not all Christians are hateful in fact most of the people that go to in my congregation? They're all Democrats with the big capital D.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)On every other subject here on DU it's the job of the majority to understand and accept the feelings of the minority as being legitimate.
Why is that so difficult for this subject?
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)that doesn't mean things should be decided by the minority.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)stevil
(1,537 posts)See previous post.
stevil
(1,537 posts)See my next post.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Anyone who will be extremely upset by the sight of something that is part of the history of whatever a museum is memorializing should probably stay away from that museum.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)stevil
(1,537 posts)What does that have to do with any of this?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Please try to keep up.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)and is a part of the history of the aftermath of 9/11.
The role of the museum is to include any historically significant items irrespective of how people viewed these items.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)No one not playing a role could miss the obvious so blatantly.
Is the crucifix so offensive. Keep me up to date.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)according to the lawsuit filed by the atheists.
http://m.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2014/March/Group-Fights-WTC-Cross-Atheists-Died-Here-Too/
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)for most of those problems.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)end up prescribed to the believers, not the nons.
http://www.addictiontreatmentmagazine.com/prescription-drug-addiction/prescription-drug-abuse-in-christians/
Also, Utah Mormons have the highest antidepressant prescription and usage rate in the US.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)Why are you making this about religion? I was merely stating that many of those symptoms can be cleared up with medication, the same applies to Christians and atheists.....WTF!
defacto7
(13,485 posts)What the Fuck? It's an honest statement.
You "merely" say nothing. I'm not making anything, I am stating some pertinent facts in the spirit of your posts and the rancor of your demeanor which adds a great deal of justification to atheists seeing Christians in action. You are really not believable, and I don't personally think that was merely what you wanted to say.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)have a huge steel swastika in front of the museum?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Was such a thing ever built, discovered, or displayed?
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)don't believe you could even count the number of huge steel swastikas which were lying around. And the swastika is more a part (horrible part) of the Holocaust much more than two I-beams joined at 90 degrees is a part of 9/11.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)or does not display swastikas of a sufficient size, you are more than welcome to take it up with them.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)I don't have a problem with a museum - any museum, Holocaust, WTC, Metropolitan, Guggenheim - exhibiting artifacts that have some historical significance. My problem is with the WTC museum placing a Christian Cross prominently outside the museum. As such it ceases to be a museum exhibit and instead becomes an endorsement of a given religion. And, since the WTC is public property, its exhibition in this fashion violates the separation of church and state. Which is why I oppose it.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I really don't get the significance of whether they decide to place this item inside or outside. Either way it is part of the exhibits collection.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)exhibit. If it were, it would never have been tampered with and cut and shaped to make it look as it does today. It's sole reason for being is to propogate the Christian faith and as such has no place in either.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)ditrected) was about discussing the point of whether people should be outraged because swastikas are displayed inside the Holocaust Museum. If this object were to be displayed in the museum rather than outside it I would agree. But it isn't. It's not being shown for the purpose suggested but rather as a religious display which is not permissible under 1st Amendment law.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I love it when "nice guys" sneak in cowardly passively aggressive attacks.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)But if a person is so bothered by an object in open sight that is common place in this society then there are serious underlying issues that could be addressed to counseling. Not being mean just being completely honest
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Confederate flags on certain state flags for instance or just Confederate flags in general ..
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)A cross is a common sight. In a church, it will surely cause no disturbance.
Displayed prominently during a state of the union speech would be a different issue.
You agree?
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)a cross in front of a church or a cross behind the president although I think is that a state of the union would not appropriate unless it's the 911 cross.
in this day in age we have forgotten in about live and let live.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)No offense. I literally could not understand it. Perhaps you should edit it.
mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)blow-up doll to it?
If religious people are so keen to shove God and Jesus down our throats (and pants), I say we have a little fun with it. Turn their symbols against them. Have a cross? Put an ad for nails below it. Or a picture of Dr. McCoy saying "He's dead, Jim." I think this would be a lot more effective as a way to fight, kind of like how the Comic-con dudes made fun of Westboro.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Historic NY
(37,453 posts)for those families who don't have a shard to put in the ground elsewhere. Portions of the steel from the building were sent around the country. Our local cemetery has a cross from the steel along with several memorials elsewhere. Citizens from our county died down there from cops to fireman and average everyday people. 9/11 is still raw in the survivors memories.
JI7
(89,264 posts)Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)Man I love performance art pieces
Historic NY
(37,453 posts)htt p://
WhaTHellsgoingonhere
(5,252 posts)These threads are flaming!!
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Literally. My stomach heaved.
Not because a cross of iron settled in the wreckage of the Towers. And not because someone garbed in the cloth of faith sprayed anointed water on it.
Because you posted this to start trouble.
Yeah, you did.
You are combining a pair of deeply emotional issues - 9-11, and religion - into one nifty bombastic post.
You might as well lob a Molotov Cocktail into the middle of GD.
I see you.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)This harms no one and gives comfort to millions of Americans. The only controversy is that some people who are too selfish for their own good want to take comfort away from the vast majority. I could care less if the symbol was Christian, Jewish, or Martian, it COMFORTS people, far far more than it could ever offend.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)I already appreciate you for your art, no need to continue. You have me sold, you are a genius in the performance category.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)They were Islamic, Jewish, atheist, pagans, etc. Either have all religious symbols or none.
What's with xtians using the crucifix as a masturbatory aid?
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)but when I masturbate I like pictures of Salma Hayek and Eva Green. As for the crucifix.....yeah, how weird that a symbol of the faith is used to express emotion about that faith. That never happens
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)as the person I was responding to.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)...fueled by religious hatred and led by merciless fanatics on both sides. It will be guerilla warfare on a global scale, with no front lines and no identifiable enemy."
sibelian
(7,804 posts)who died on 9/11 WOULD agree with that, with the possible exception of a small number of non-xtians who would feel it appropriate to take offense, from beyond the grave, at a symbol commemorating their passing that isn't the right shape.
I am unsure how to ameliorate this sense of exclusion, as these people are excluded from breathing and cannot communicate their wishes to me.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)even though I wasn't addressing you.
sibelian
(7,804 posts)Response to sibelian (Reply #229)
LostOne4Ever This message was self-deleted by its author.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)I think 19 muslims caused 9/11. But keep fucking that chicken.....Please show me your tolerance and secular humanism by fucking that chicken
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)You named all of the major religions except for the 2nd largest. Why did you do that?
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)you are predictable.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Take a guess.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)_|_
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You may think it is just a form of attention-getting porn OP, but then again, dollars to donuts that you are as white and waspy as the day is long.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)Mexican-y (half hispanic actually)
and Catholic-y does that count?
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)I'm white, raised Catholic, I like donuts, and I swear to God, the only person who knows what the fuck you're talking about right now is you...maybe. Sorta. Doubtful. Very, very doubtful.
Have fun storming the castle.
I see you.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Go ahead with the cross thing.
It's the sort of muscle memory idiotic behavior that keeps it all rolling along.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)Yeah a cross at a memorial site will lead to the 2nd round of Crusades...........You sir or madam are the true performance artist.....this is self parody beyond belief.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)n/t
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Like I said...
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)You have no reason to talk about others doing that at all.
Do you not think 9/11 and religion are emotional for those who disagree with you also?
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)The point of the exercise.
*sigh*
People need hobbies.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It might be work for you but it's stupid although entertaining hobby for a lot of us.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)is to be intolerant towards Christians and those who seek comfort from religious symbols being displayed at memorial sites? A bit obscure, but I am sure there is a Facebook group for your unique hobby.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)spread God's love. That is all. I am only in this thread because of the faux secular humanism on display. The "tolerance" on display towards Christians who seek comfort is revelatory, but exactly what I expected.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I'm helping you get into heaven and you're pissed at me.
Thankfully it's National Brotherhood Week
&feature=kp
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)maybe I won't. It isn't really up to you or to me. Fortunately for me the Book of Matthew is optional. Well I shouldn't just say me, fortunately for most Christians they are not wed to the Bible.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)so glad my God and my faith does not subscribe to that belief. It must suck to live in a world where there are no rules only what you believe.
Fortunately my faith does not allow that.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Seriously, first it was "bomb-throwers" and now it's "secular humanism".
Just a tip, those phrases sort of make it obvious.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Dude.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)You can pretend that DU is not a place for confrontational entertainment. But that would really show you off to be either naive or disingenuous.
You've crapped in this place enough times to have left some pretty bad stains.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)You: defined.
*sigh*
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Seriously, it's like arguing against seat belts.
I fucking love DU, this place is hilarious.
ChromeFoundry
(3,270 posts)ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Will is claiming "gimmick infringement".
liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Let's see the Christian groups that want open religious ceremonies support a mosque at Ground Zero.
That would maybe make me change my mind.
stevil
(1,537 posts)If a Christian helped me to open my mind and embrace love of mankind and a liberal outlook would you look down on them?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)But that's a "when did you stop beating your wife" question since nothing I have said implies I "look down" on anyone.
Look, if I work in an office, I don't want my boss sticking a giant cross in the lounge. He can put it in his office.
Even if lots of people in the company are Christian, it is still obnoxious to the ones who are not.
Does that make this issue clearer?
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)yeah I didn't think so.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)Yes.......
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)I don't.....
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)It isn't ok.....but I don't care. I don't know how to break it down any more simply for you.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)If only you could be as tolerant.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,337 posts)[
You may think it is just a form of attention-getting porn OP, but then again, dollars to donuts that you are as white and waspy as the day is long.]
OK wasp man. Shit....
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Literally: perfect.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I know you're more self aware than this, you old troller you.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)goldent
(1,582 posts)I first thought that the American Atheists weren't thinking clearly, or didn't have their best people working on this, when they decided to make a legal challenge.
But it goes against any semblance of common sense, and has every appearance of masochism on the part of the American Atheists. The only thing that could make it worse would be if they won the case. Of course they have no chance of winning -- arguing that historical events that have a religious element are not actually part of history is absurd. And implying that the cross is somehow honoring the Christian victims of the attack shows a complete misunderstanding of its actual historical significance.
So I'm still puzzled at why the American Atheists did this. In another thread, I mentioned that sometimes major donors with an ideological streak can force organizations to do things that really don't make sense (as a condition of their donations). It can also be leadership gone amok in an organization that doesn't have a solid system of corporate governance.
MO_Moderate
(377 posts)out of fear and hatred of Christians, and for the publicity.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)MO_Moderate
(377 posts)To back up the assertion that a very small number of people fear some conspiracy theory about being oppressed by religion or even a theocracy being created?
To back up the assertion that a very small number of people mock Christians and use derogatory names when referencing them?
To back up the assertion that a very small number of people use meaningless things like this to make people feel offended and threatened enough to send them money?
If you refuse to acknowledge these facts, a link isn't going to change your mind.
bunnies
(15,859 posts)Most people would supply a link with such an allegation.
Marr
(20,317 posts)overtly Christian symbol was included.
MO_Moderate
(377 posts)and is part of the history of the site. A plaque saying a couple of people who didn't believe in a God also died here, means nothing to anybody.
phleshdef
(11,936 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)It's a legitimate point.
As an atheist, I feel apathetic toward anything religious. So it doesn't bother me that they chose an obvious Christian symbol for this memorial. They probably should have chosen something nonreligious. Yet compared to the so-called History Channel presenting biblical stories as historical facts, this cross doesn't even register on my atheist outrage meter.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Merely starting an OP doesn't imply that it is that big of a deal to me.
It's just like, my opinion.
defacto7
(13,485 posts)It's busted! It's junk! It's rusty metal and other toxic junk. I see no religious symbol, only a busted piece of architectural design used for stability and structural safety that didn't work. People want to worship that? or have their hearts soothed by a failed design structure?
Then again, some see the Virgin Mary in a piece of toasted wonder bread and sell it on EBay to people who need to be soothed by... the toast or god.
I don't get it, and for that I am glad.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)If anyone finds a Taoism symbol, let me know.
unblock
(52,317 posts)i'm sure there were crossed i-beam debris in the shape of an 'h' or and 'i' or an upper-case 't', and probably even a '#' sign.
they threw those out and made a monument out of the one that looked like a christian religious symbol.
you can't put it all on the construction of the building when you know they sifted through the rubble for just the right piece of debris.
Deep13
(39,154 posts)That is, the result of divine intervention. Well, there is nothing remarkable about finding an iron cross when the building was made out of them.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,290 posts)I DO MIND that they won't allow in any type of memorial for nonbeliever.
All the AA wants is a plaque. One that they themselves have offered to pay for.
I see no logical and fair-minded reason to deny that.
I ALSO DO MIND how the AA has been made to look like the bad guys in this and how the OP in the other thread has not even acknowledged that is all the AA really wants.
djean111
(14,255 posts)I am an atheist. A Jehovah's Witness, a very nice older woman, has been coming to my front door for over a year, maybe every three weeks or so. I always tell her that no, there is nothing that can make me believe in her particular god, or any god, but she just keeps smiling. I enjoy talking to her, except for the bible stuff, really.
Anyway - and this does have a point regarding that I-beam - yesterday afternoon she stopped by with another woman and they asked me if I knew what the bible and their god had in mind for this country. I said, oh, the Ted Cruz vision? They blinked, and started reading from their bibles. About how the Christians would have dominion over all others, etc. The Ted Cruz vision.
So that cross, today, makes me uncomfortable because I know the end game that some Christians have, and it seems like yeah, a cross planted in rubble is the desired result.
Not caring for the cross does not make anyone a joyless person. Just a person who does not care for the cross. Just like, presumably, all Christians don't believe that they should rule the world and gobble up all the money like a flock of Kochs.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)"So that cross, today, makes me uncomfortable because I know the end game that some Christians have, and it seems like yeah, a cross planted in rubble is the desired result."
I agree--there is Fundyism in this.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Normally I would not care about what people want to erect where, on their own property. But I did object to the ten commandments sculpture on public sites. I'm not an atheist but I think you have to be very careful with cultural icons that imply consensus. What they have done with this offends me. Consider the recent attempts to turn this country into The Republic of Gilead.
It would be better to use a piece of the wreckage in a more abstract shape, as iconic sculpture.
That would speak just as well to people of all religions or none.
This was an opportunity for inclusivity and solidarity --whatever you want to call it when you honor all people equally.
An opportunity missed.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)given what came after.
JNelson6563
(28,151 posts)So all-powerful bible god stood by and let this horrible thing happen but showed his presence by letting two cross beams remain standing in the form of a torture device, the cross.
This must be the same god who stands by and lets atrocities like baby rape, murder, heinous violence and such happen in the world every single fucking day.
By all means, let those who want to worship such an imaginary creature have at it. Some sick imaginations. And they take comfort from these thoughts, eh? Sick motherfuckers.
Julie
thucythucy
(8,086 posts)"I happen to know (from personal experience) that seeing a cross in a public space makes some people feel isolated at best and threatened at worst."
Glad you empathize with this. Glad to see you acknowledge and understand how something that might seem innocuous, even comforting, to some--perhaps even the majority--can be deliterious to others, and that their sensibilities ought to be considered by the majority, even if it's the vast majority. I'm very gratified to see you acknowledge that images have power, and need to be scrutinized for their impact, and I commend you for your sensitivity in this regard.
And yet, when people here on DU (mostly women but also a number of men) expressed pretty much the same feelings (of isolation and disempowerment) about the posting of the T & A Sports Illustrated Cover in General Discussion a month or so back, you seemed to be one of those who characterized their discomfort as "faux outrage." Those aren't your words, but in OPs like "Objectification? You really want to go there?" and "Something making you feel bad isn't the same as Misogyny" you seem to be saying that just because something offends some people (in this case, a number of progressive women and men on DU) is no reason to object to it being displayed.
This seems to be a bit of a disconnect.
Am I to assume you've come around on this issue? Or are non-Christians bothered by the public display of a cross somehow more entitled to their discomfort than those women (and some men) bothered by the objectification of women in what is supposed to be a progressive space open to all?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I do not participate myself in posting photos that make others uncomfortable nor did I ever say it was "faux outrage".
The OPs you bring up are an attempt A) to put objectification in a perspective that is larger than merely looking at T&A but which is, in fact, a POV which affects all genders, and B) an attempt to suggest that the term misogyny is used cavalierly when merely chauvinism or sexism or even just ass-hattery would be be more accurate.
thucythucy
(8,086 posts)Some more than others. It's what makes for analogies as opposed to "identities"--that is, two situations entirely equal to each other.
Anyway, I specifically mentioned that you never used the phrase "faux outrage." But the wording of your OP on objectification seemed rather confrontational, even dismissive, and thus in league with those who did indeed use the phrase. You could have said, "Men are objectified too" or "Here are instances of male objectification" or even "Let's put objectification into a broader context than simply sexual objectification." Instead it was "You Really Want to Go There?" which came across to me anyway as less an opening to any useful discussion than as a challege to those bothered by the objectification inherent in the SI cover.
Similarly, to make a statement such as "Even denying that 'rape culture' exists is NOT misogyny (it just makes you 'feel' bad)" comes across as less "an attempt to suggest" any particular idea than it does as a denigration of those who believe there is such a thing as rape culture and categorize its denial as misogyny; and to minimize the impact this denial might have on people who know rape culture as lived experience. Specifically, to say both JUST [my emphasis] makes you feel bad and to put "feel" in quotes strongly implies that you regard such "feelings" as trivial, if not delusionary. If that wasn't your intent, then your wording here, as with the objectification OP, very much left itself open to misinterpretation.
If the appearance of a cross or crucifix in a public space comes across as intimidating and hurtful to some people (and I know that it does) and if, as you imply, such a feeling is rooted in both historical and perhaps lived experience (which I believe it is), then it is of course quite proper and reasonable at the very least to respond to those feelings in ways that are compassionate and understanding, and not trivializing and dismissive.
Similarly, if some people view the denial that rape culture even exists as threatening, even misogynistic, then that feeling needs to be addressed in ways that are in the very least respectful and compassionate. The denial of the very existence of rape culture might well be experienced in much the same threatening way by a rape survivor, for instance, as the appearance of Christian iconography by a non-Christian who has a background of religious based oppression.
To me the analogy isn't strained at all. Which is why I asked you about this in the first place.
Best wishes.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Wow. A cross beam looks like a cross. God and such. Yipee.
JanMichael
(24,890 posts)are so many people worked up over this crap?
Look, if you like the cross, by all means, go see it. If you are an atheist/ agnostic, why the hell do you even care? It's just another damned cross- for gods sake, they are everywhere. Just ignore it. It doesn't mean an damned thing to you anyway.
Good god, this is a stupid thread. I finally looked at it today, and thought "shit! We really are that petty."
Beacool
(30,251 posts)As someone who came out of the PATH train underneath the North Tower that morning, I think I have as much of a say as a whole bunch of people in front of a keyboard who didn't live through the ordeal.
The steel beams in shape of a cross were found two days after the towers collapsed. That cross brought hope to countless people in the weeks to come, particularly to first responders who lost dozens of their brothers and sisters in the collapse. There are plenty of other items in the museum that shouldn't offend the atheists' sensibilities.
The cross has become a historical item and should be on permanent display. One group is not entitled to deny another group something that doesn't meet with their approval.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Last edited Mon Mar 10, 2014, 01:01 PM - Edit history (1)
which their lawsuit claims is caused by the cross? Perhaps the museum should stock indigestion tablets in the gift shop?
Beacool
(30,251 posts)Do these folks visit museums? I have seen all sorts of artifacts everywhere: Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc. I find them interesting and like to learn their history.
No one is asking these people to pray at the cross, but those of us who lived through the horror that was 9/11 and its aftermath (the missing notices plastered everywhere of people who would never go home again, the stench that I could smell for weeks from my apt. across the river in NJ, the memorials, etc.); know that these two pieces of steel brought comfort to many people. They have indeed become a historical artifact.
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)I like the actual cross better.
The fact that it is bent out of shape makes it look like it has gone through a lot.
The newer one looks like an artifice and just doesn't capture the moment as well.
I'd have kept the pedestal looking like debris as well, which is even better.
Saying that, I do wish they allow that Muslim center that allows people to have contemplation in an area, which was a few blocks away from this.
Thing is, I tend to feel that I wouldn't begrudge them on this. If many derive comfort from such a thing, I don't feel like begrudging them this, especially if they allow other things around it.
Personally, I don't like it. It looks too artificial and is trying too hard, that makes it feel kinda tacky.
That is personal taste. I am sure some like it, but that is my impression of it and others are welcome to their views.
aka-chmeee
(1,132 posts)This "Loving God" offs 3000 people and in exchange gives you a piece of scrap iron for "hope". Like the survivor of a plane crash claiming he was spared because god had a purpose for him. Really self centered when your god kills hundreds to improve your self esteem.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Putting religious symbols in public spaces is inappropriate. If you're against putting the Ten Commandments in courthouses, you should be against this.
I personally think it's a fairly distasteful thing to display regardless of the space, considering the context. It almost seems like an acknowledgement that 9-11 was just a battle in an ongoing religious war. But taste is very personal, I suppose.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)OwnedByCats
(805 posts)the Menorah or any other religious symbol other than a Christian one doesn't bother me. If atheists have a symbol, whatever that may be, wouldn't bother me either. It's called being tolerant of other's religious or non religious beliefs. I don't agree that atheists shouldn't have their own at the museum, I think they should have something too. Put up all different symbols, I really would not mind at all because it's not just all about me and my fellow Christians. It's about everyone.
Some atheists are upset because they have been refused their own symbol - I get that, I completely understand that frustration and I totally disagree with that decision. What I don't get are those who want it removed because they don't want it there period. I realize that some Christians are not tolerant and they are wrong. But atheists are equally wrong when they are intolerant to Christians, even to the ones that have no problem with them, such as someone like me who doesn't care one fig what others believe. How can you become what you hate? You don't want us to be intolerant, but it's ok for you to be? Be the bigger person and be tolerant of Christians who are not - I can tell you right now that would bother them even more than you not believing in a higher power.
EvilAL
(1,437 posts)how can people not see it a religious symbol?
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)If there were other pieces of wreckage around on pedestals I could see it as an important remnant. But it has been selected as THE main remnant--the main symbol of hope and survival of a nation--with miniatures of it being sold in churches as souvenirs.