Do you believe that Putin's invasion of Ukraine was justified?

[ProSense]

53 votes, 2 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes
	4 (8%)
	No
	49 (92%)
	2 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Rex]

1. ...

[ProSense]

2. LOL! n/t

[Rex]

5. Oh noes! Pros poll is not going the way he wants it to!

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

Don't worry, no doubt SOMEONE will come along and vote yes!

[ProSense]

8. Laughter? Fear of exposure?

How did you vote?

[sabrina 1]

11. Russia invaded Ukraine? When? I don't watch the Corporate media so it's possible I missed it.

[Rex]

15. He has a sadz, got called out for hippie punching on DU...so now there is a poll

to prove that at least SOMEONE on DU loves Putin! I know infantile...but here we are.

It is amusing to watch a handful here pretend we don't know Putin is a dictator and not to be trusted. Almost like a case study.

[sharp_stick]

18. A Sadz?

when did this place get taken over by 12 year old girls.

[sabrina 1]

30. Girls? Only girls act silly?

But since you asked, 12 yr old boys and girls maybe. Since DU began trying to ferret out 'saddam lovers', sorry 'putin lovers' wearing 'pompoms' and cheer leading outfits rah-rahing for the 'enemy'.

[Rex]

41. Oh noes you are getting hit with the links of desperation now!

[ProSense]

29. Oh my!

[ProSense]

35. Here you go

Ukraine crisis: 'Russian soldiers' seize Crimea hospital

Armed men - said to be Russian troops and local militias - have seized a military hospital in Crimea, as Moscow tightens its grip on Ukraine's region.

The attackers marched into the hospital in the regional capital Simferopol, threatening staff and some 30 patients.

Pro-Russian troops are also blockading Ukrainian troops across Crimea.

The latest moves come ahead of Sunday's secession referendum in the autonomous region. Kiev and the Western nations describe the vote as illegal.

In other developments on Monday:

• Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Moscow will send its "counter-proposals" to Washington to try to resolve the Ukraine crisis; the US earlier proposed to set up a contact group, renew direct Kiev-Moscow talks and also urged Russia to pull its troops in Crimea back to their bases
  
  
• In a phone call, US President Barack Obama and his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping urge Russia to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity
  
  
• Russia's former tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who spent a decade behind bars, tells students in Kiev that Russia has severely violated international law by deploying troops in Crimea

- more -

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26515049

Merkel tells Putin Crimea referendum illegal
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024635628

Russia isolated over Crimea after UN vote

Moscow only opponent to Security Council resolution condemning Crimean referendum, with China crucially abstaining.

Russia has been exposed as isolated over the crisis in Ukraine, with members of the UN Security Council overwhelmingly supporting a draft resolution condemning an upcoming referendum on the future of Crimea as illegal.

<...>

Russia vetoed the US-backed resolution when it was put to a vote before the council, but its ally China abstained, leaving it as the only nation to recognise the Crimean referendum.

<...>

Al Jazeera's diplomatic editor, James Bays, said the vote laid bare the international opposition to Russia's stance on Ukraine and Crimea.

"China is not supporting its ally Russia on this occasion. It is abstaining. That's the best the Western nations, who drafted this resolution, could hope for, but they think that this is important because it exposes that Russia is on its own."

- more -

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/crimea-prepares-vote-amid-deadly-showdown-201431512241274925.html

Even China isn't in denial. LOL!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024669215#post65

[sabrina 1]

42. Crimea is an autonomous part of Ukraine, given to them by Kruschev without a referendum from the

people. If they people do not want to remain a part of Ukraine, that is their choice, is it not?

[ProSense]

46. What does that have to do with Putin's invasion? n/t

[sabrina 1]

49. What does any of it have to do with us? Why are we sending so much money there when we are

canceling school lunches for children here? I thought we were out of money?

[ProSense]

56. Nice try at deflecting from Putin's invasion. n/t

[NervousRex]

205. Sophistry...

...is all you'll get from that one.

[sabrina 1]

105. Well at least you haven't tried to deny that fact. I'm amazed that there are people here trying to

deny facts. As if doing so gives them any kind of credibility.

[Igel]

48. Chechnya.

Or the Southern States during the 1860s.

Note that the VR said they'd authorize a referendum. After the foreign troops were out, media shutdown, and propaganda campaign were all pulled out.

"Autonomous" does not mean "independent" in East Europea political-speak. Don't substitute definitions mid-stream without making it clear that you're manipulating meanings. Unless you simply don't know what the word means in that context.

[sabrina 1]

50. Well, then explain it to us ignorant morans. The Crimeans asked for help from Russia, Russian troops

have always been there btw. Now they had a referendum. Are you saying they have no right to decide their own future? And if not, why not?

And when will Ukraine have a chance to speak their minds on the Kiev government which is not elected?

[muriel_volestrangler]

161. Explanation: autonomous regions cannot invite in foreign powers

The Crimean government did not have the right to ask for Russian troops to control Crimea. Russian troops are only allowed in the zones agreed with the Ukrainian government, and the public airports, roads, hospitals and Ukrainian bases are not in those zones. The Crimean government did not have the right to shut down all the Ukrainian language TV channels.

[sabrina 1]

173. I see. So the unelected government in Ukraine has rights an elected government

doesn't have? Fyi, there have always been Russian troops in Crimea.

And what if the people of Ukraine, if they EVER get a chance to vote in a legitimate election, decide to throw out the unelected government which is the cause of what happened in Crimea? Will you recognize the Ukraine people's right to choose their own government, if the election doesn't turn out the way you want it?

And why has there been no election in Ukraine? It's fascinating to watch some people endorse an unelected government which even the most avid supporter of toppling governments admits, has some pretty unsavory characters appointed to positions of power, yet refuses to recognise the rights of a legitimate government and the majority of its people to determine their own futures.

And what business is this of ours anyhow? Seems to me this is the business of those in the region most affected by what happened. That would be the EU, Russia, Ukraine, Crimea. Where do we fit into this picture that we have so much to say about?

Do you remember the Orange Revolution btw? And how we were all cheering for it, then promptly forgot about it and moved on to the next 'crisis' we were supposed to condemn or cheer for?

Do you know what happened after that revolution that we were so supportive of?

Maybe we who know zero about these countries and their cultures should stop pretending to be experts on what is good for everyone in the world.

We aren't doing so great right here in our part of the world.

[muriel_volestrangler]

175. The Ukrainian and Crimean parliaments are still the people elected at their last elections

and both of them replaced the president (Ukraine) or Prime Minister (Crimea) in non-standard ways (the Crimean PM is meant to be approved by the Ukrainian president). There will be a new election for Ukrainian president on May 25th - after a reasonable period of electioneering (and not with some domestic TV stations banned, like Crimea banned Ukrainian-speaking channels before the referendum). And there won't be troops from another country occupying Ukraine.

If you don't think this is any of our business, then no-one's forcing you to post in these threads. FWIW, I am in the EU.

What happened after the Orange Revolution (complete with suspected poisoning of a pro-west politician by Russians) was an increasing amount of corruption in government, culminating in Yanukovych. A good way to decrease corruption would be closer ties with the EU.

[sabrina 1]

188. What's forcing me is that our tax dollars are being spent over there while we are told

we can no longer afford school lunches for our own children right here. Sorry if Americans are not too happy about more billions, appearing apparently out of nowhere, are once again being 'invested' without our consent or even referendum on how, since apparently WE DO have money after all, it SHOULD be spent. And just who is going to profit from this next investment? Certainly no ordinary American has benefited from the billions 'invested' in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and wherever else it is being invested.

Surely you know that Bush's interference in all those nations, and his 'investment' of our tax dollars helped create the deficit they are now trying to 'fix' by taking even more from the American People, mostly the poor, the elderly and dependent children.

So forgive me if I have an interest in how OUR money is being spent, and WHY, and WHO is going to profit from it?

Crimea does not recognize the unelected government in Ukraine and especially after their move to ban the Russian Language which is not just spoken in Crimea, but in large parts of Eastern Ukraine.

That was a stupid, authoritarian move, but was enough to frighten the people into leaving Ukraine.

Maybe they should have waited for the election, dispensed with the deadly protests, and Crimea would still be a part of Ukraine, the election would still have been in a few months, and the people would have been able to express THEIR views on all of this.

Since the election was coming up, and moved up, what was the rush to unseat the legitimately elected government?

[muriel_volestrangler]

189. The presidential election would have been in 2015

It was brought forward to 2014, because the current one is recognised as only interim: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Ukrainian_presidential_election

The language law change was a stupid idea, but the interim president ordered a replacement for it on 27th, and vetoed it on 28th February: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine#Proposals_for_repeal_and_revision . On Friday 28th February, the Russians seized the Crimean airports: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014741182 . It's not a good enough excuse for Putin sending his troops in.

[sabrina 1]

193. I was just told that the May election will only be for the Presidency. That's not going

do much good for the people, if true. They still will have no say in their future unless there is way to vote for or against the entire government.

Also, the election could have been moved up. It appears that after that offer was made, it was ignored. What was the rush? A lot of people are wondering since there WAS a way to resolve the issues Democratically.

[muriel_volestrangler]

195. The parliament still has the same representatives in

They're unchanged; the Party of Regions, by and large, abandoned Yanukovych when he became too bad. There's no need for special elections for the parliament.

As far as I know, Yanukovych only agreed to a presidential election in December 2014: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/21/ukraine-protests-viktor-yanukovych-election

There are various local elections being held on May 25th too, eg in Kiev: http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/192688.html

[sabrina 1]

196. That's really for the people to decide, isn't it? How do YOU know how those who elected

Yanukovich feel about these events? You don't, neither do I. We only know what a tiny % of the entire population feel. It's more than possible that no matter how disappointed they may have been, the events that took place have shocked them.

I know for a fact that even with Bush who I could not have despised more, occupying the WH, I would never have supported a coup, a bloody one at that. That would be far frightening than a bad president who could have been removed in a civilized manner. We didn't manage to remove Bush. Doing so might have saved countless lives, but the longterm effects of a bloody coup, undermining the democracy that keeps a country civilized is far more important than instant gratification.

But now that Ukraine has established a system whereby an elected president can be removed by violent protests, it can happen again, and again.

And I"m sure everyone who supported it this time, will be consistent when it happens again, and continue to support it.

Would you support Americans doing the same thing, or are bloody coups only good for other, less civilized nations?

[muriel_volestrangler]

197. Yanukovych was removed because of his use of violence against protesters

That was what shocked Ukrainians.

[sabrina 1]

198. You are speaking for tens of millions of people. I don't give much credence to

people on the internet who don't live there stating their opinions. I would like to see a full election where the people get to speak for themselves.

You're entitled to your opinion. I, otoh, have no clue how a majority feel about what happened in Kiev. Therefore I wouldn't presume to offer an opinion on the subject.

[arely staircase]

101. yeah that totally isn't the Kremlin/rt line nt

[sabrina 1]

104. What are you saying? Are you contradicting the fact that Crimea is and has been autonomous since it

became part of Ukraine? Even the Kremlin can't change facts, and if they can't, neither can you. Is that what you are doing, disputing that fact?

[arely staircase]

107. the Kremlin is changing things alright

wih their manly hetero weapons of anti fascism.

[sabrina 1]

134. Lol, Crimea is autonomous. That is just a fact. Now they have voted to be part of Russia. One of the

unintended consequences of the coup in Kiev. The unelected right wing extremists in Kiev scared the Crimeans so badly that they lost it completely.

Why hasn't there been an election in Ukraine? We have no clue what the people THERE want, they were just forced to accept a government they did not elect. And you're worried about Crimea which got what it wanted?

[arely staircase]

136. hell yeah

Occupied by Russian fascist troops = autonomous

War = Peace

Rt = news

[sabrina 1]

139. Not occupied no matter how often you say it. Looks like the world is accepting Crimea's decision, so

you may as well turn off the Koch Funded Corporate Media which does NOT equal news.

Too bad the unelected government in Kiev threatened the Crimeans thinking they had the power to do so. As a result they lost it altogether.

[Rex]

12. Oh I might just hold out...I don't want to see you with a total sadz.

Fear of exposure...wow we are getting desperate!

The irony in your post is not lost on me.

[hrmjustin]

3. Hell no!

[treestar]

4. No

This kind of thing is unnecessary. If the people there want to join Russia, meetings could take care of that - and the referendum.

Troops of course, make a show of force.

[arely staircase]

6. yes. there is a right way and a wrong way to do things nt

[awoke_in_2003]

71. Oh, it is necessary...

if Putin doesn't plan at stopping with just Crimea. He will manufacture a reason to go further.

[functioning_cog]

7. Kick

[functioning_cog]

9. Like the Tatars in Crimea, putinistas are boycotting

Typical.

[Rex]

17. ...

[reformist2]

10. He didn't invade the Ukraine.

[hrmjustin]

14. Crimea is Ukraine.

[sabrina 1]

16. I thought I missed something, thanks, I didn't think so. Faux is probably claiming

he did, remember when they put Iraq in the wrong part of the world? Lol!

[Rex]

20. Well they tried the Saddam is a Bad Man canard. Didn't work out so well.

So now they are in desperation mode.

[ProSense]

24. Yeah, you "missed" the invasion.

Now, those spending all their time justifying it will deny it happened?

[sabrina 1]

34. Well, when did it happen? I did miss it, obviously!

I haven't denied it, I'm asking 'when did it happen'?

[hrmjustin]

28. Crimea is Ukrainian territory.

[sabrina 1]

43. Crimea is the only autonomous part of Ukraine, which means it is up to the Crimean people whether or

not they remain part of Ukraine. Are you saying the people who have autonomy should not have that right, to decide what is best for THEM?

[hrmjustin]

44. How do you make decisions when they won't let you have the option to remain in Ukraine?

[sabrina 1]

52. What do you mean you don't have the option? If you want to remain in Ukraine, then don't vote

to be a part of Russia.

And who decided that the government in Kiev is what the people THERE want? They have not had a chance to vote on ANYTHING. Surely you will be consistent and condemn a government being forced on tens of millions of people who have had no say in that decision. Why haven't held an election?

[hrmjustin]

54. the option was not on the ballot.

The only options on the ballot were independence or joining Russia. Staying in Ukraine was not on the ballot.


As for the Ukraine goverment there are many reasons to be worried about tgat lot but that is no excuse for Putin to invade Ukraine.

[sabrina 1]

58. So, they could have voted to remain independent of either Russia or Ukraine, and if there was no

option to remain part of Ukraine, they could have refrained from voting. If a majority of the people refrained from voting at all, then protested that they wanted that option, that would suffice to show that is what the people wanted.

Re Ukraine not having an election, it is relevant to Crimea if the people of Crimea fear 'that lot' enough to have voted either for independence or for becoming part of Russia. Perhaps if they had had an election, that might not have been an issue at all. Apparently it WAS fear of the current Kiev government that prompted the request for help from Crimeans. Can't say I blame them. It was stupid not to have an election right away. They might have avoided all this if Crimeans had been satisfied they had no reason to fear Kiev's government.

[hrmjustin]

60. If they wanted a legit election then they would have added the option.

If they wanted a legit election they would not have thousa ds of Russian troops running around with guns intimidating people.

Sorry but I don't see this a legit. I understand that if a truly fair election was held the results would likely be similiar but they did not do it the right way,

If Putin was truly concerned for Crimea he would not have looked to annex it so fast.

[sabrina 1]

96. Ukraine has had no election at all. Does that bother too? We have no idea what the Ukrainian people

want. I find that to be very disturbing, don't you?

[hrmjustin]

97. Yes considering there are reports that there are some unsavory characters in charge now.

My understanding was there was an agreement for new elections in May. Not sure if that will happen.


It also disturbs me that Russia sent thousands of it's troops into Crimea. I think Putin is evil personally.

[sabrina 1]

98. Neo Nazis are evil and seeing that it is no surprise that the people of Crimea

asked for help from Russia to keep them from being invaded by those 'unsavory' characters, is it?

And why is this any of our business anyhow?

Our own elections are corrupted, at least two major stolen elections, and many others that were questionable. And yet nothing has been done to fix that. Not to mention all the money we seem to have found to send over there. Who is going to benefit from that 'investment'? The American people sure didn't benefit from the Iraq 'investment'. Yet we can't even provide lunches for our own children.

Seems to me this is a huge distraction from what needs to be addressed right here at home, not to mention hugely disturbing to see MORE money being given away to foreign nations while claiming we are out of money for our own.

[hrmjustin]

99. So we shoukd just be quiet and mind our own business?

What happens if the invade the rest of Ukraine?

[sabrina 1]

100. We ARE being quiet and minding our own business about a whole lot worse situations around the world.

Worse we are actively supporting DICTATORS, and 'looking the other way' as they commit genocide of their own people, torture and jail them for simply trying to speak their minds. See Uzbekistan eg.

And if we are going to go help somewhere, how about the CAR? THERE is a situation where help is badly needed. If you are going to recommend that we police the world, I can provide you with a long list of places that make what is going on in Ukraine look like a democratic paradise.

So why Ukraine?

It's weird how the world survived for thousands of years before we even existed. It's a bit arrogant to think we are capable of doing anything that won't make matters worse for the people who actually live there. See Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, eg. Is that what you have in mind for Ukraine? Maybe we should wait and ask the people there if they want us to bring 'democracy' to them the way we have to Iraq.

[hrmjustin]

102. I am not asking the goverment to police the world. But if Putin thinks he can do this all

the time to other nations then he will.

I don't want a war becaus I know what war brings. I trust Obama to handle it.


Please answer my question on what happens if he invades the rest of Ukraine?

[Adam051188]

127. seems like the whole affair needs a do-over from pre-coup on. how about elections with fresh faces?

he can't have all of ukraine because it's on the EU's doorstep. The eu can't have ukraine because it's on putin's doorstep. the only logical conclusion is that it remains a neutral independent state as it has been for quite some time before guys with riot shields and training started "protesting" with Molotov cocktails.

[hrmjustin]

129. That is up for the people of Ukraine to decide.

[Adam051188]

131. i hope so.

the U.S. should be in this, organizing a fresh election, finding suitable Ukrainian candidates with popular support among the population, ALL of the population(russian speaking or not), and getting ballots made. we should be willing to loan them w/e they need with workable conditions so that they are capable of remaining a neutral independent state buffering russia and the EU. the EU should find a new source for it's natural gas.

[Adam051188]

132. that is of course assuming that we need to be involved at all

ideally we would not be. we are not the world's police. i'm just saying if we need to be involved that's what should happen. the situation is a stalemate between the EU and russia. neither side should get ukraine because the other will not stand for it and it's not worth a major war.

[sabrina 1]

137. Putin has and had no intention of invading Ukraine. You have forgotten what happened there.

There was a coup led by a whole lot of pretty nasty people, who we decided to support. Then they started moving on Crimea, at which point Crimea asked Russia for help. As most of the world's press reported, armed men came to Crimea from Kiev obviously intended to take control of it. Crimean security forces stopped them.

Wtf kind of question is it to ask 'what if' Putin were to invade Ukraine when it was the Kiev unelected government who were trying to invade Crimea?

Where do people get this stuff from? Do you research outside of the Corporate media? There are literally thousands of news sources available from all over the world, there is really no excuse to only get your news from one of the LEAST credible in the civilized world.

It was the arrogance of the new unelected government that lost them Crimea. The people there witnessed the brutality, the anti-semitism, the armed gunmen coming to their part of the world, and they decided to get help before anyone was killed in Crimea.

[hrmjustin]

140. You think that Putin won't go after the rest of Ukraine?

I don't trust him.

[sabrina 1]

142. No I do not think he will be that stupid. I'm more worried about the government they have now and

whether an election there can restore democracy or whether we'll be hearing excuses as to why it has to be postponed.

For Putin to invade Ukraine would mean is one of the stupidest people on the planet, and whatever can be said, justifiably, about him, he is not that stupid. Such a move has the potential to start a real war. It's better for all involved, especially the EU and Putin, to resolve this peacefully. And does seem to be moving in that direction.

[hrmjustin]

143. I hope your right on both counts.

I don't like either goverments.

[sabbat hunter]

190. Putin had no intention of invading

as long as his puppet was in power. But he was removed from power, as is allowed under the constitution, by the Ukraine parliament. Then Putin invaded the Crimea area of Ukraine, to get them to leave the Ukraine, so he can put in another puppet, in the area where Russia has a port and many natural gas interest.

Putin is a fascist. His puppet in Ukraine was one as well.

[sabrina 1]

192. How would you describe the current unelected government in Ukraine?

[sabbat hunter]

199. abput the same as the old one

except that it is more pro-western and not a Putin puppet. But it will remain to be seen who they elect as the new president.

[sabrina 1]

203. So it's a Western Puppet rather than an Eastern Puppet.

What's the difference in being a puppet of anyone? The IMF/World Bank are now going to be pulling the strings for the West in Ukraine. How is that better than just being an independent sovereign nation? Ask Ireland, Greece and all the other IMF puppets how it has worked out for them.

[sabbat hunter]

206. I think with a pro-western ruler

they are far more likely to have civil rights for the population, and a truer democracy. Unlike in Russia where freedoms are suppressed, opposition is crushed and the parliament is little more than a rubber stamp for Putin who wishes to reform the Russian Empire/USSR.

Ireland is recovering quite well from its monetary woes, and is fully functioning democracy/republic.

Greece has a lot of problems many of them are of their own doing. For example, they have a fairly liberal pension for all its citizens, and a good social safety net. However they have been terrible with collecting taxes from the middle and upper classes. Instead, because of widespread corruption, tax collectors get paid off and do not do their job. If Greece was able to collect all the taxes it was owed, plus the back taxes it is owed, its budget problems would practically vanish.
But even with all of that, they have a fully functioning democracy/republic, with normal elections, no power grabs by the chief executive etc.

In Ukraine under the ousted president, you had an executive that was trying to grab more and more power for himself and his cronies, was basically a Putin puppet.


The IMF/World Bank is not pulling and strings in Greece or Ireland. They were bailed out mainly via the EU.

and if you look at past IMF bailouts like Argentina, that country had a long run of a growing economy, freely elected governments, etc.

[sabrina 1]

208. Are you serious about Argentina? Seriously, have you studied what happened to Argentina

as a result of the IMF/World Bank policies imposed on them in collusion with their corrupt government? Have you read 'Shock Doctrine', which gives an idea of the destruction of a sovereign nation, the raiding of its national assets etc?

As for Greece, the problem was what it was here and everywhere else. The Wall St corruption that toppled the world's economies, with the perps getting away with all the money. No one held accountable, the money in offshore accounts, and the burden placed on the 'little people'.

And of course, the Corporate entities not paying taxes, like here.

I can link you to several documentaries on what happened to Greece, Ireland, Spain, the US and all the others whose economies collapsed.

And as we learned, when countries are in shock after a financial collapse such as the last Global crash, the IMF and World Bank and all the predators move in implementing 'Austerity' policies, the first thing they attack are Social programs taking the money to pay for the gambling debts of the criminals who will never be held accountable.

I have followed the financial collapse for years now. I KNOW what is about to happen in Ukraine and I also know it won't be long before Yanukovich, bad as he was, is going to look good to those people.

To be enslaved to the IMF means a loss of a sovereign nations natural resources and assets and even land, islands, etc after everything is privatized so the predators can profit while the unfortunate people are forced to pay.

It was no surprise to learn that the IMF and World Bank were in Ukraine the day after the ousting of Yanukovich, they couldn't wait. There will be a lot of raiding of that country now, and not much for the people.

As for 'oppression of protests' etc in Russia, we are in NO position to speak of censorship, oppression anywhere. After what was done to OWS, we have no illusions about what happens to people who become a threat to Wall St. corruption.

[sabbat hunter]

211. in greece

it wasn't just that corporations were using tax laws to evade taxes legally. They simply weren't paying them at all, even when they owed them.

If the government of greece was able to enforce its existing tax laws (loopholes and all), they wouldn't be in this mess. Their problem is they cannot even manage to collect taxes, even after the loopholes are exploited. It is easier to bribe an official than to even bother filling tax forms.

[davidpdx]

156. You are going to get nothing but double speak from that one

She'll tell you one minute that we have no right to care about what goes on in other countries and then the next minute be lecturing you on how we don't care about people in other countries.

She's also claimed we have put lives at risk by opposing the anti-gay laws in Russia.

If I could think of a blonde joke that would fit I'd tell it.

[hrmjustin]

171. I respect her. She gives her argument.

[dlwickham]

147. you are a much better person than I could ever hope to be

I would have told your debate partner to go pound sand by now

[hrmjustin]

150. I respect her. She gives her argument.

[joshcryer]

160. When Putin takes Eastern Ukraine, I hope that respect is lost.

Just saying. I believe Putin has his eyes set on Ukraine proper. It will happen before Hillary is President because she won't stand for it.

[Lost_Count]

167. That is adorable...

What exactly is she going to do that Obama is not?

[joshcryer]

169. Sanctions against the oligarchs.

Obama wouldn't dare.

[sabbat hunter]

200. the ones in Russia?

I believe that the US is already imposing sanctions against the oligarchs of Russia and the Russian government.

[joshcryer]

202. Hardly, no big names.

[sabbat hunter]

207. I guess you haven't seen

Obama's most recent statement

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/18/world/europe/obamas-statement-on-new-sanctions-against-russia.html

[OilemFirchen]

95. This was a referendum.

Not voting, or having your ballot invalidated because you failed to endorse one of the options, meant that your vote was not counted. Only those who chose Russian rule or independence were tallied.

There was no "third" option.

[magical thyme]

103. not exactly...the 1992 option kept them as an autonomous part of the Ukraine

If that passed, then they could do what they wanted, including voting to be completely under the current Ukraine system.

1. Are you in favor of the reunification of Crimea with Russia as a part of the Russian Federation?

2. Are you in favor of restoring the 1992 Constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?

Voters will have to mark one option affirmatively, but they cannot vote for the status quo.
A return to the 1992 Constitution — adopted after the Soviet collapse but quickly thrown out by the post-Soviet Ukraine — would effectively provide for Crimea’s independence, while remaining part of Ukraine. The Crimean government would have broad powers to chart its own course, including its relations with other nations such as Russia.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/15/world/europe/crimea-vote-does-not-offer-choice-of-status-quo.html

The current status quo is to be governed by a coup government installed with no voice from the Ukranian people. There is nothing to stop them, once they voted for 2, from changing their status in the future. It just freed them from the coup government.

[sabrina 1]

154. Well they know the percentages of voters. The Guardian reported that 20% did hold

back their votes due to disagreeing on joining Russia. Of the 80% that did vote, over 90% voted to become part of Russia rather than the Ukraine. So it is a moot point since regardless of the options available, a majority it is known, voted to break away from Ukraine.

Again, that was the third option, don't vote. 20% chose that option and, according to some who were interviewed, hope their choice will not influence other people's attitudes towards them. I hope so too.

[snappyturtle]

111. They did....they had two options...1) to stay with Ukraine with some autonomy or

2) join Russia.

[hrmjustin]

113. Was that clear on the ballot?

[snappyturtle]

114. I am searching for video proof now! I heard that and I'm trying to sort out

where...I've looked at SOooo much today! That's what I heard....twice. nt

[hrmjustin]

115. cnn said it was merky.

Last edited Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:19 AM - Edit history (1)

[snappyturtle]

155. I couldn't find m original source however this morning I found the

two questions voters were asked in The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/16/crimea-referendum-polls-open-live

The first question asks: ‘Are you in favour of the reunification of Crimea with Russia as a part of the Russian Federation?’

The second asks: ‘Are you in favour of restoring the 1992 Constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?’


At first glance, the second option seems to offer the prospects of the peninsula remaining within Ukraine. But the 1992 national blueprint is far from doing that.

Instead, it foresees giving Crimea all the qualities of an independent entity within Ukraine - but with the broad right to determine its own path and choose relations with whom it wants - including with Russia.

[hrmjustin]

170. Thanks for looking.

It does look merky.

[snappyturtle]

172. That's what I so often think of referendums written in the negative!

Actually, in this case, I think a concerted effort was made to explain what voting
for staying with Ukraine would include. It may have become murky in translation.

[hrmjustin]

174. The whole thing is a mess and I fear that this will hurt us all in the end.

[joshcryer]

89. Even if you didn't consider it Ukrainian, Putin has taken two towns in Ukraine.

So it is objective fact that Putin has invaded Ukraine.

[hrmjustin]

91. Thats true.

[davidpdx]

157. The irony of that will be lost on the pro-Russian pro-invasion people

They are in deep denial.

[joshcryer]

159. It's why the Putinists have yet to vote.

They are either in denial or are closet fascists. I'm leaning toward the latter. Especially given the liars I've witnessed lately.

[davidpdx]

163. LOL

Yep, very true. Biting my tongue not to name names.

[ProSense]

21. Really?

What do you call sending troops into Ukraine?

[functioning_cog]

22. And you are not dumb

[Cha]

135. ..

ooops!

[11 Bravo]

23. Ummmm, yeah ... he did. But the ignorance inherent in your comment is ...

illustrative of why he will probably get away with it.

[jeff47]

31. Yea! RT says they were greeted as liberators!! (nt)

[Igel]

51. They were, by some.

Aksenov and his ilk got 4% of the vote.

3 million population.

That's 120k people. You can have a lot of "greeting as liberator" with 120,000 people. Heck, the size of the crowds in liberators could have been produced by Russia military folk in plain clothes on leave.

But you also have to take into account their news diet.

It's like being in Los Angeles in spring 1992. The LA riots started and were on the tv. A lot of people assumed that we were in imminent danger in Westwood and were terrified. Some were from out of town and unaware of the distance. Some were racist and assumed that the dark-skinned "uprisers" were going to come and get them. And that's just based on rumor, emotional thinking, and the MSMS--without an intentionally biased media feeding them streams about armed columns of fascist whatevers heading for Westwood in order to massacre us in order to scare and manipulate us.

[Hippo_Tron]

65. It's Ukraine, not THE Ukraine...

[joshcryer]

88. Actually, he has two towns outside of Crimea.

[grahamhgreen]

212. +1

[Scootaloo]

13. 23 Putinistas-in-hiding!

You'll ferret them out yet, ProSense!

[sabrina 1]

19. I took out my pompoms and everything, haven't used them since I was cheerleading Saddam!

[ProSense]

26. LOL! Cheer: Down with Bush! Up with Putin!

[sabrina 1]

210. Would you like to borrow my pom poms? Someone told me to get them out, so I did.

I'm nothing if not obliging, and more than willing to share!

[Scootaloo]

53. That long? I had 'em out when I was cheering for Assad!

[sabrina 1]

55. Lol, I missed the call for Assad!

And I forgot, I did get them out for Gaddafi though!

[Scootaloo]

57. I didn't think Gaddafi needed 'em

Dude dressed like Rick James on acid, I figure he was gaudy enough to be his own cheer squad.

[sabrina 1]

62. True, he certainly had quite a wardrobe!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

209. I missed you at last month's PolPotLuck dinner.

Just so you know, this month we're going to meet at the Idi Amin Center for Progressive Thought, and we're going to vote on whether or not to lobby Congress to make Stalin's birthday a national holiday.

[sabrina 1]

213. Lol, Pol Pot, our favorite Dictator, and I missed it?

'Idi Amin Center For Progressive Thought'!

Please don't let me miss the vote on Stalin's Birthday! I love National Holidays, we get a day off on National Holidays.

Someone on DU suggested I get out my pom poms to 'cheerlead for Putin'.

So I did, and guess what? He got angry at me, he thought I was being obnoxious.

What is a Liberal girl to do?

Liberal Dems just can't please people these days. I thought he was serious!

Funny post, thanks for the laugh! Lol!

[ProSense]

27. Impossible!

They don't exists. LOL!

[Scootaloo]

93. Might I suggest...

Enlisting the inquisitorial expertise of Cardinals Ximénez, Biggles, and Fang?

It would give your threads some much-needed dignity.

[ProSense]

94. Nope, not a fan of group think.

LOL!

[joshcryer]

87. It is unlikely they will vote.

Hell the thread is littered with posters not voting.

[Scootaloo]

90. And there's the conspiracy theorist logic! Welcome to the thread, CT Logic!

"The lack of evidence is itself irrefutable proof!"

[joshcryer]

92. That was a factual observation.

We will see if they vote or not but I find it unlikely that they will do so.

[Rex]

32. K&R for pissing off all the RIGHT people!

[ProSense]

36. Thanks. I'll put this here

so the nervous laughter can continue. LOL!

Ukraine crisis: 'Russian soldiers' seize Crimea hospital

Armed men - said to be Russian troops and local militias - have seized a military hospital in Crimea, as Moscow tightens its grip on Ukraine's region.

The attackers marched into the hospital in the regional capital Simferopol, threatening staff and some 30 patients.

Pro-Russian troops are also blockading Ukrainian troops across Crimea.

The latest moves come ahead of Sunday's secession referendum in the autonomous region. Kiev and the Western nations describe the vote as illegal.

In other developments on Monday:

• Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov says Moscow will send its "counter-proposals" to Washington to try to resolve the Ukraine crisis; the US earlier proposed to set up a contact group, renew direct Kiev-Moscow talks and also urged Russia to pull its troops in Crimea back to their bases
  
  
• In a phone call, US President Barack Obama and his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping urge Russia to respect Ukraine's territorial integrity
  
  
• Russia's former tycoon Mikhail Khodorkovsky, who spent a decade behind bars, tells students in Kiev that Russia has severely violated international law by deploying troops in Crimea

- more -

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26515049

Merkel tells Putin Crimea referendum illegal
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024635628

Russia isolated over Crimea after UN vote

Moscow only opponent to Security Council resolution condemning Crimean referendum, with China crucially abstaining.

Russia has been exposed as isolated over the crisis in Ukraine, with members of the UN Security Council overwhelmingly supporting a draft resolution condemning an upcoming referendum on the future of Crimea as illegal.

<...>

Russia vetoed the US-backed resolution when it was put to a vote before the council, but its ally China abstained, leaving it as the only nation to recognise the Crimean referendum.

<...>

Al Jazeera's diplomatic editor, James Bays, said the vote laid bare the international opposition to Russia's stance on Ukraine and Crimea.

"China is not supporting its ally Russia on this occasion. It is abstaining. That's the best the Western nations, who drafted this resolution, could hope for, but they think that this is important because it exposes that Russia is on its own."

- more -

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/03/crimea-prepares-vote-amid-deadly-showdown-201431512241274925.html

Even China isn't in denial. LOL!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024669215#post65

[Rex]

37. Yes you do seem very nervous. Why is that?

[ProSense]

38. .

It's OK.

[Rex]

39. I know, you will be okay. I LOVE this poll BTW!

[baldguy]

33. I wonder if there's any corrolation between the Putin-lovers and the Snowden-lovers?

[sabrina 1]

45. Or the Saddam lovers? n/t

[davidpdx]

158. There is, want to know what they have in common

They are all anti-American.

[TomClash]

40. Nope

It violates international law, just like the bombing of Libya, the invasion of Iraq, the firing of drone missiles in Somalia, Pakistan and Yemen, the unavailing support for the illegal occupation in Palestine and the countless other incursions our silence has allowed.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

47. Apparently, the people of Crimea do.

[ProSense]

61. Right,

"Apparently, the people of Crimea do."

...because Putin didn't invade, huh?

<...>

Ukraine’s southern-most region has been increasingly cut off from the outside world after Russia seized effective military control of the peninsula two weeks ago.

<...>

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukraine-clashes-and-abductions-ahead-disputed-crimea-vote-2014-03-14

<...>

However, Human Rights Watch observations on the ground in Crimea and interviews with people who had – or were witnesses to – interactions with self-defense units, suggest that these units operate outside any legal framework. Some wear camouflage clothes without insignia, others are in civilian clothes. Many wear armbands that symbolize loyalty to Russia with the colors of the Russian flag, or the black and orange St. George flag, the symbol of the highest Russian military honor. Units patrolling the streets are usually unarmed and do not wear masks, while those manning checkpoints, or other strategic locations, wear black balaclavas and carry automatic weapons, including AK-47s.

<...>

http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/03/14/crimea-attacks-disappearances-illegal-forces

Under Watch of Russian Troops, Crimea Votes on Secession

By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN

SIMFEROPOL, Ukraine — With thousands of heavily-armed Russian troops occupying this perenially embattled peninsula, the voters of Crimea went to the polls on Sunday to vote on secession from Ukraine in a public referendum that Western leaders have declared illegal...With the outcome of the vote virtually a foregone conclusion in a region that shares a language and centuries of history with Russia, the greater suspense lay in how swiftly and forcefully the United States and its European allies would levy threatened sanctions against allies of President Vladimir V. Putin, including senior Russian officials and business leaders. The answers were likely to depend to some degree on whether Mr. Putin showed any signs of acting quickly to annex Crimea or order further military incursion beyond Crimea’s borders, perhaps to seize vital infrastructure including water and energy supplies.

“Our people must be united in Russia,” Yelena Parkholenko, 27, a manicurist with violet hair, said matter-of-factly after casting her vote at School No. 21 here in Simferopol...It was a sentiment repeated over and over again at polling stations as citizens with misgivings about joining Mr. Putin’s Russian Federation, particularly Crimean Tatars, a Muslim Turkic people with a history of persecution by Russia, generally opted to stay home rather than participate in what they called a rigged vote. The referendum offered no option that would maintain Crimea’s current status of limited autonomy from the Ukrainian government in Kiev.

The referendum asked voters: “Are you in favor of the reunification of Crimea with Russia as part of the Russian Federation?” or “Are you in favor of restoring the 1992 Constitution and the status of Crimea as a part of Ukraine?” The second choice would effectively grant Crimea independence without immediately breaking from Kiev, but such a break would be inevitable and the Ukrainian government, like the West, has rejected the vote as illegal.

<...>

Russia on Saturday used its veto power as a permanent member of the United Nations Security Council to reject a resolution championed by the West that would have declared the referendum illegal. That left American and European officials scrambling to prepare a list of Russians to penalize, possibly including senior members of Mr. Putin’s inner circle.

- more -

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/17/world/europe/crimea-ukraine-secession-vote-referendum.html

The other was called a “March for Peace,” convened by the opposition to President Vladimir V. Putin. Holding paper doves aloft, they chanted “Putin Is Afraid of the Maidan” and a Ukrainian phrase that translates as “Putin, Get Out!” The police estimated that there were 3,000 people in this crowd, but it seemed many times larger, in the tens of thousands, filling a boulevard with bodies for many blocks. The split reaction here reflects domestic tensions. Mr. Putin, who was shaken by large antigovernment demonstrations in Moscow two years ago, is using the confrontation to consolidate the public behind his rule, tapping into the deep well of emotion about the Soviet Union’s suffering at the hands of Nazi Germany. The authorities have tried to mobilize support on federal television channels, and have muted independent voices on the Internet.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/16/world/europe/as-putins-popularity-soars-voices-of-opposition-are-being-drowned-out.html

Damn!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

64. They're voting over 70% in favor of alignment with Russia.

You know, Self Determination, Democracy, and all that.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/16/ukraine-crisis-crimea-referendum

According to polling by German research group GfK, 70% of Crimeans who want to participate in the referendum plan to vote to join Russia, while 11% plan to vote to remain part of Ukraine.

[ProSense]

67. Oh,

"You know, Self Determination, Democracy, and all that."

...so invading a country and putting up an illegal referendum and voting by gunpoint is "democracy"? From the article you posted.

Crimean leaders have made no secret of the fact that they expect a landslide victory for joining Russia, and posters across the region call on voters to make the correct choice. Ethnic Russians make up a slight majority in Crimea, which was part of the Russian republic within the Soviet Union until 1954. But the minority populations of Tatars and Ukrainians are less enthusiastic about the vote and many Tatars have said they will boycott the poll.

<...>

No major international organisations are monitoring the vote, but a group of observers from 23 countries – a mixture of anti-western ideologues and European far-right politicians – have arrived of their own accord and gave a press conference in Simferopol on Saturday evening.

Belá Kovács, an MEP from the far-right Hungarian party Jobbik, said everything he had seen on Saturday conformed to international standards and he expected the vote to be free and fair.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

69. Voting at gunpoint? They're being forced to the polls?

I must've missed that in the coverage. As I recall, several countries voted to breakaway from the former USSR. Now we have a new country and its people voting to break away from Ukraine.

[dipsydoodle]

73. Yes - they were forced at gunpoint to the polls and told how to vote.

Their voting pop. is 1.5 million (BBC figure) and the turnout seems to have been about 70% of whom 93% seem to have voted to go with Russia.

That clearly means that 976,500 were forced at gunpoint ................

Now do you believe how many troops Russia must have on the ground in Crimea ?

[ProSense]

76. That's

Their voting pop. is 1.5 million (BBC figure) and the turnout seems to have been about 70% of whom 93% seem to have voted to go with Russia.

That clearly means that 976,500 were forced at gunpoint ................

Now do you believe how many troops Russia must have on the ground in Crimea ?

...some special math. LOL!

"Turnout" was not 93 percent, that was the pro-Russian vote count.

Many voters protested the vote.

[dipsydoodle]

78. You misread

I said 70% for voter turnout.

[ProSense]

83. It's all illegal and controlled by Russia

If Putin wanted this to be on the up and up, he wouldn't have forced a vote at gunpoint via an illegal referendum, and then shut out election observers.

[joshcryer]

84. The highest turnout I see is 44%.

Do you have a link to your figures?

[dipsydoodle]

85. Guardian is quoting over 80%

in their live link which has now closed but info remains online. If you can't find it I'll post it in half an hour or so.

[joshcryer]

86. I found it, here's the exact quote:

Exit polls said 93% of Crimeans had voted for union with Russia, with a turnout of 83%. Given the absence of recognised election observers, it was impossible to verify how honestly the ballots were counted, but in Sevastopol at least, such figures did not seem implausible.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/16/pro-russian-crimeans-celebrate-landslide-vote-union-russia-ukraine

So that was the claim on the ground.

This is the source I had: http://en.itar-tass.com/world/723766

[seattledo]

141. What happened to the 23% in an unbiased poll?

Really you expect us to believe that suddenly the number of people that support it went up over fourfold in a week?

Back to the topic, if the numbers are true, then Putin was absolutely justified in liberating these people. The question is if these numbers are true.

[joshcryer]

151. I'm sure it would've gone for Russia either way.

Occupying forces just allow you to have the totality of the vote apparently.

[Adrahil]

164. If the U.S. did something like this...

.... You'd be all over it as imperialist and a fixed election.

[Bluenorthwest]

74. The actual People of Crimea were ethnically cleansed by Stalin 70 years ago

they were forced, at gunpoint, onto boxcars and shipped to distant Central Asian relocation areas. Russians moved in to take the land which had belonged to the Crimean Muslims.
The Tatars were not allowed back at all until the 80's, they have not been formally invited back home, no compensation or other justice for their losses in life, which were extraordinary, land, property, and culture. So I guess if you kill and deport the residents, wait a few decades you can claim to be 'The People' and vote that you are in charge, completing the land grab instigated by a swift and violent mass deportation of the indigenous, rightful residents and owners of the land if you really need a good port.
I can understand why the folks who speak of the 'majority in Crimea' like to leave out the boxcars full of relocated minority members when they are busy calling other people Nazis. It muddles the message.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

75. Tell it to Andrew Jackson and the Cherokees.

[arely staircase]

79. he's dead nt

[TheKentuckian]

176. So is Joe Stalin.

[NuclearDem]

82. Thank you, Tuquoque_y_Libertad.

Nice to know that's somehow relevant.

[Adrahil]

165. Yeah, because that makes it OK if other people do it?

More defense of the Kremlin ,I see.

[bahrbearian]

59. Fly Paper Poll

[ProSense]

63. Why?

It's a simple yes or no question. Don't tell me you haven't seen commentary and RT propaganda posted justifying Putin's invasion.

[RedFury]

66. Conniving OP...

...as Russia never "invaded Ukraine" but rather defended their legitimate interests in their only outlet to the Mediterranean Sea. As well as the majority of the pro-Russian & ethnic population there.

[ProSense]

68. More

"...as Russia never "invaded Ukraine" but rather defended their legitimate interests in their only outlet to the Mediterranean Sea. As well as the majority of the pro-Russian & ethnic population there."

...denial and Putin apologia.

[functioning_cog]

138. They already had ports on Mediterranean. And securing the port city

(even assuming that was necessary) does not explain overrunning the entire Crimean penninsula.

You are deflecting and making excuses for Putin.

Ukraine is universally recognized as including Crimea.

[awoke_in_2003]

70. I have been hearing people moan

about liberals backing Putin. I cannot see it in this poll.

[ProSense]

72. "I cannot see it in this poll."

There was no option for denial of reality: Putin didn't invade Ukraine.

[joshcryer]

80. They have so far not voted in it.

Because they're cowards most likely. Can't have their actual position on record. At least 3 voters did.

[JustAnotherGen]

77. I'll pass -here's why . . .

How will it affect the children living there? We may not know for a long time. My mother in law (passed away in July of this year), father in law, and another ex boyfriend's mother were children of WW II. Aunt Philomena, Dora - uncle Angelo, uncle, etc - more children of war. Uncle Nicolo and Aunt Hortensia have pictures in their living room of them with Mussolini - ie hip deep in the shit as 20 something's. The other brother died as a partisan.

For me - what does it mean for the little people that this is happening around?

It's not a cop out. Good, bad, indifferent - there are children in Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan by my country's hand are suffering.

I just don't want children to suffer. Needlessly. By my country's hand or another - enough.

This action creates nothing. It just destroys.

[joshcryer]

81. Crimea wasn't the only vote boycotted today.

Lots of Putinists staying out of this one.

[AverageJoe90]

106. Simply put.....FUCK no. n/t

[rdharma]

108. What invasion of Ukraine are you talking about?

[ProSense]

109. The one

"What invasion of Ukraine are you talking about?"

...that requires acknowledgment of reality. The one that even China isn't in denial about. There are examples posted throughout the thread.

[rdharma]

110. Results of referendum are in.....

No invasion......

[ProSense]

112. LOL!

"Results of referendum are in.....

No invasion......"


...at gunpoint retroactively. Something tells me you knew it was an invasion before the vote.

LOL!

[rdharma]

117. Something tells me you are still fighting the cold war.

Sorry! The RW neo-fascist putsch lost....... at least in Crimea.

[ProSense]

119. Yeah,

"Sorry! The RW neo-fascist putsch lost....... at least in Crimea. "

...sure they did. The problem seems to be that some people bought into Putin's propaganda, which is far from reality (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024671862).

In fact, the far right appears to have helped to justify the illegal referendum.

<...>

Crimean leaders have made no secret of the fact that they expect a landslide victory for joining Russia, and posters across the region call on voters to make the correct choice. Ethnic Russians make up a slight majority in Crimea, which was part of the Russian republic within the Soviet Union until 1954. But the minority populations of Tatars and Ukrainians are less enthusiastic about the vote and many Tatars have said they will boycott the poll.

<...>

No major international organisations are monitoring the vote, but a group of observers from 23 countries – a mixture of anti-western ideologues and European far-right politicians – have arrived of their own accord and gave a press conference in Simferopol on Saturday evening.

Belá Kovács, an MEP from the far-right Hungarian party Jobbik, said everything he had seen on Saturday conformed to international standards and he expected the vote to be free and fair.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/16/ukraine-crisis-crimea-referendum

Jobbik, the Movement for a Better Hungary (Hungarian: Jobbik Magyarországért Mozgalom), commonly known as Jobbik (pronounced [ˈjobːik]), is a Hungarian radical nationalist[3][4] political party. The party describes itself as "a principled, conservative and radically patriotic Christian party", whose "fundamental purpose" was the protection of "Hungarian values and interests."[12] Jobbik has been described by scholars, different press outlets and its political opponents as fascist,[13] neo-fascist,[14] Neo-Nazi,[15] extremist,[16] racist,[17] anti-Semitic,[18][19] anti-Roma[20] and homophobic.[21] Measured according to its representation in the European Parliament and the National Assembly, it is Hungary's third largest party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jobbik

[rdharma]

120. Like I said..... the RW putsch lost!

[ProSense]

121. Like I said...denial. n/t

[rdharma]

122. Facts! nt

Don't align yourself with grandpa McCain! He's nuggin futz!

[jeff47]

128. There are more than two choices.

One does not have to support a US counter-invasion to denounce Putin's invasion.

[NuclearDem]

130. No, one RW putsch lost.

Another won.

[Cha]

145. “The referendum itself doesn’t mean anything,” she added"

The Fight for Democracy in Ukraine: A Conversation with Center UA’s Svitlana Zalischuk

BY Micah L. Sifry

“In the third and last part of our conversation, I asked Zalischuk about the referendum about to take place in Russian-occupied Crimea and the massive Russian troop presence across the border from eastern Ukraine. “Russian invaded Ukraine,” she said, mincing no words about Vladimir Putin’s actions in the wake of Yanukovych’s departure from office. “The referendum itself doesn’t mean anything,” she added, noting that the choice was between “yes and yes,” and didn’t give people a choice of maintaining the status quo. “You can’t conduct a democratic referendum when a whole country is invaded and controlled by the troops of a foreign country.”

This is not a conflict between Ukraine and Russia, she said, it’s a conflict between the civilized world and totalitarianism, one that undermines the whole architecture of the European and world community. I asked her about the idea that the democracy movement in Ukraine was mostly strongest in the western part of the country and not so much from the eastern half, where Yanukovych got the majority of votes. She said the picture was more complicated, because Yanukovych himself had campaigned in favor of stronger ties with Europe when he was running for president.”

http://techpresident.com/news/wegov/24827/fight-democracy-ukraine-conversation-center-uas-svitlana-zalischuk

[PorridgeGun]

116. Right or wrong, Putin gonna Putin.

He'll be as aggressive as he can short of provoking open conflict. The Crimea will be annexed, sanctions will be passed and Putin will view them as the price of victory. imo, he'll almost certainly leave the rest of the Ukraine alone.. for now.

Also, I didn't see anyone going to the polls "at gunpoint," and even if they were, they certainly didn't have a soldier looking over each shoulder (far from it, in fact) to make sure the correct side was ticked.

[rug]

118. No. What's the Administration going to do about it?

[Rex]

123. 5 vs 125.

[ProSense]

124. Now: 5 vs 128

Funny stuff!

[Rex]

125. It proves the total nonsense from that other thread.

That one you linked to!

[stevenleser]

126. Did you vote in the poll?

[Rex]

180. I don't participate in propaganda, I leave that to you.

[stevenleser]

133. At least three of the most pro-Russian folks I've noted from discussions haven't voted.

Several of them are more than willing to criticize you and your OP but haven't put their money where their mouths are in the vote.

[Rex]

181. Well go get those commies! Maybe you can take the ghost of McCarthy with you!

[stevenleser]

182. Commies? Once again, you keep using that word...

[Rex]

184. Well that is the first time I used it here, but I wouldn't expect you

to know that. A real reporter would, but nice try anyway!

[dlwickham]

144. who are the 6 tools that voted yes

and how much are they getting paid to be tools

I need a job

[Cha]

146. Here for all the world to see.. it says "show user names"..

seattledo, LisaL, oldhippie, iemitsu, AnalystInParadise, RedFury

[dlwickham]

148. it's been a long day for me

thank you

[Cha]

149. ..

I wasn't scolding if you thought that.. You just gave me the idea to look for it because I thought I remembered that you could see who voted for what on DU.

[stevenleser]

185. There are at least three more stridently pro-Putin/Russia folks who haven't voted.

and that is just off the top of my head. I think Prosense's point is made.

[Jamaal510]

152. How on Earth could any DUer vote "yes"? nt

[Ash_F]

153. I voted no but the rhetoric from both Fox News and the State Department is really dumb. /nt

[B Calm]

162. Frankly, I don't lose sleep over Ukraine.

[mgcgulfcoast]

166. no one lost sleep over the sudetenland either.

[B Calm]

168. I do lose sleep over our wasteful spending trying to police the world,

while at the same time our infrastructure is crumbling. We need to learn to keep our nose out of every little thing that happens in the world and ignore pols like John McCain!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

177. We currently have an OP with 49 recs that says it was.

FWIW.....


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4677598 :

"This recent situation in Crimea, I believe, is a godsend. First, it has permitted the situation here in Kiev to assume a certain level of normalcy. And I've been thinking recently that how much better the 20th century would have been if, within the first couple of months of Hitler's rule in Germany, someone had decided it was time to put an end to his nonsense and went ahead and invaded Germany. Maybe people in the states don't learn from history, but it certainly looks like Mr. Putin has."

[ProSense]

179. There is a bizarre

"We currently have an OP with 49 recs that says it was."

...dynamic at play here. Many of those same people rec'd an editorial that stated the invasion was a "clear violation of international law."

Russia’s dispatch of military forces to Crimea is a clear violation of international law. Putin justifies the invasion as necessary to protect Russian citizens and allies, but this is a fig leaf. The Obama administration is right to condemn it, although much of the world will grimace at the irony of Secretary Kerry denouncing the invasion of a sovereign country even as the United States only now winds down its “war of choice” against Iraq, which is thousands of miles away from US borders. Crimea, of course, not only abuts Russia but houses its Black Sea Fleet, which, by treaty agreement between Ukraine and Russia, is set to remain there until at least 2042. Crimea historically was part of Russia until 1954, when Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev transferred it to Ukraine in what many viewed as a gesture of good will.

It seems that any slight denounciation of the U.S. is the driving factor. The editorial's main goal, though, appears to be a call for diplomacy and rejecting the RW's call for military action.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

183. Cognitive dissonance is cognativey. nt

[joshcryer]

201. Nice find.

Though a rec isn't necessarily approval.

[TheKentuckian]

178. Not at all. That said I see very little to do about it and Putin's pretexts are closer to making

some sense than some of our invasions which is such a low bar as to be meaningless aside from the hypocrisy of the fury here when it is pointed out that Russia isn't likely to pay much of a higher price than was extracted from us as penalty for say going into Iraq.

[Rex]

186. Wow, who knew this poll would prove a small group of radicals on DU

completely wrong!

KICK!

[William769]

187. Wheres the hell no option?

[KamaAina]

191. The Putin Seven may not be aware of the "Show Usernames" feature.

Just sayin'.

[TBF]

194. Is it an invasion when you are invited?

I am no fan of Putin but I think there is enough support of Russia from the south and east that this was not a hostile takeover.

The west is far more friendly to the EU and US. Ukraine is a big area comprising various cultures/loyalties.

[demosincebirth]

204. I'll give you a dumb answer to a dumb question. Yes