Without evidence, is it right to suggest Cheney transplant was improper?

[cthulu2016]

Last edited Sun Mar 25, 2012, 11:34 AM - Edit history (1)

The reflexive notion that Cheney somehow used money or influence to jump the line in transplant protocol is natural enough, but nurturng the assumption that the rich and powerful get dibs on organs is not without its downside.

If I recall correctly, When Pennsylvania Governor Robert Casey received an emergency heart-liver transplant (after being on a waiting list for less than twenty-four hours, but within established procedures for emergency dual-organ procedures) there was a subsequent marked drop-off in Pennsylvanians opting to be organ donors.

On Edit: The point is that these accusations and suspiscions are not really leveled against Cheney, they are actually against the integrity of transplantation protocols and the medical establishment, so they are misdirected boomerangs.

[lastlib]

1. YES

[noiretextatique]

21. +1000

my friend is on a wait list for a heart transplant, but she is not a rich man with lots of connections.

[HopeHoops]

2. It took a long time to capture a demon spawn with the right blood type to use as a donor.

[Pab Sungenis]

3. Cheney is in his 70's.

How many younger people, who can make more use of the organ, got jumped over to give him the heart?

[cindyperry2010]

6. That is what my question was

isn't he on the upper end of not being viable for this? Too old?

[emilyg]

24. He was on waiting list

for 20 months.

[Pab Sungenis]

39. Okay, then.

Then odds are no one was jumped over. That's more acceptable.

[lastlib]

45. Surely they could get a heart for him sooner than that.....

Pigs die every day, and I don't think they have to consent to donating their organs. Surely a compatible pig wasn't so hard to find for him.....Did it have to have an extra-small heart??

[rbrnmw]

62. +1000

[liberal N proud]

4. Knowing what we know about transplants, age and patient history, we know enough to ask questions

Add that to the personal history of the patient and their questionable ethics, we have enough to ask questions.

If they can show that there was no favoritism due to who he is or that some strings were not pulled, then we will let it be. But we should ask the questions.

[Nay]

5. It would help if a trusted DUer in a relevant medical field could explain how a 71-yr-old man in

Cheney's condition could even be considered for such a transplant. I expressed my doubt that it was proper in another thread, but also asked medical DUers how he could possibly be on the list. I'm willing to be educated about the process, but considering the vast privileges accorded to the rich and powerful in this nation, I don't think it is improper of anyone to question the legitimacy of the process that gave Cheney the heart.

As far as not questioning transplant procedures because they might result in fewer people willing to be organ donors, that is as it should be. Why, indeed, should us peons donate organs when we know or suspect they will go to the highest bidder or the person with the most power? Jesus, these people drain us dry when we're alive, and then get our organs when we die! That's revolting -- that's why organ donation went down.

[K Gardner]

48. Well, I've worked with Organ Transplant Teams, and have tried to

explain and provided links, but no one seems to want to listen. People over the age of 71 get transplants all the time. Please visit the UNOS website for a thorough detailed analysis about how The List works and criteria that have to be met to get on it and rise to the top of the list.

Specifics of waiting list rules, which can be seen at OPTN website, vary by organ. General principles, such as a patient's medical urgency, blood, tissue and size match with the donor, time on the waiting list and proximity to the donor, guide the distribution of organs. Under certain circumstance, special allowances are made for children. For example, children under age 11 who need kidneys are automatically assigned additional points. Factors such as a patient's income, celebrity status, and race or ethnic background play no role in determining allocation of organs.

[Nay]

52. Thanks for your answer --- it helps. nt

[Ian David]

7. It's wrong to assume, but not wrong to ask for an inquiry. n/t

[Shadowflash]

8. I don't know about 'Improper' .....

... But, certainly, a waste.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. When it comes to Cheney all accusations are proper.

The notorious war criminal has reportedly not been eating small children for breakfast since his heart surgery.

[cthulu2016]

11. The point is that these are not accusations of CHENEY

They are actually accusations against the integrity of medical organ-donation establishment and protocols.

That's the point.

[cindyperry2010]

15. true

[nobodyspecial]

18. Feelings seem to trump logic and reasoned thinking these days.

There is no measure for evil in the protocols. Seriously, do we want the system based on how "good" and deserving a person appears to be. No, you're too mean and evil to get a transplant. Who decides that? And, unfortunately wealth and access to health care plays a role. If they give you a new organ, will you have the resources to maintain it and have long-term success? It's not like you have the procedure and you're done. It's a lifetime of anti-rejection meds and constant monitoring. So, yes, Cheney would have an advantage over the homeless vet. Hopefully, that will all change under the new healthcare act when it goes into full effect.

I think that it discourages donations. I would hate for someone to decide not to donate because they cannot personally decide if the recipient is deemed worthy by their standards.

[lastlib]

47. Who decides if Cheney is too old or too evil? well, we could put it to a vote....

All opposed to Cheney getting a heart....
....motion fails!

[originalpckelly]

10. 65 is the cut off usually, unless the patient is somehow healthier...

70 something isn't really too bad.

There are some places that will transplant organs that are not ideal to recipients who are not ideal.

[dsc]

12. I can speak to the age thing

My dad, who will turn 77 in Nov, was given the same choice as Cheney was a few years ago, get the heart pump and eventually get a heart transplant. He chose not to go that route and is has officially entered hospice. The fact is people in that age range are getting transplants.

[riderinthestorm]

16. I went through the training about 5 months ago for my sister and I believe its 72 yrs old now

is the cut off. So I do think Cheney (at 71) would still have fallen within the guidelines to be a recipient.

[originalpckelly]

27. I watched a transplant on or-live

a while back and the surgeons said that it is usually 65. A little higher if someone is healthy enough otherwise.

But that's only for the normal program.

There are the equivalent of scratch and dent shops, who will do it with organs that would otherwise not be used for people who would otherwise not receive them.

This is again per the words of these surgeons on the video.

[RZM]

32. Same here

My father is two years younger than Cheney. A few years ago he and his doctor talked about it and decided the best option was not to do it. But he probably could have.

[riderinthestorm]

13. My sister just got a kidney/liver double transplant 3 weeks ago. I'll try to answer some questions..

First off, there is a scoring system that evaluates a potential recipient on many different factors: age, survivability, severity of their illness, potential longevity etc. My sister had a MELD score of 31 at transplantation out of a possible 38 and only waited 4 months on the list. She was sick but not in a crisis. There were others who had higher MELD scores and who had waited longer (she was #4 at the time of her transplant) but who didn't get the organs she did because they weren't the right blood type (she's b- so she was a pretty rare type) or they were too sick at the time.

Cheney waited 20+ months if I recall so he probably waited a fairly normal amount of time before he received his heart. I think the cut-off age is 72 years old but don't quote me on that (my sister is 55 so I didn't pay a lot of attention to that detail when we were getting our own education on it) so he was within the range of age to still be eligible.

I would guess he was pretty sick. Its interesting to me that we haven't heard from him lately and I wonder (now) if it's because he's been failing pretty badly for a long while....

Furthermore, transplant centers are in the business of successfully performing transplant operations. They see the whole procedure as a game of chance (as well as a rare gift), and want the transplants to succeed. The scoring system now has an excellent, objective track record and I really can't see them throwing that over for anyone.

[emilyg]

28. Thank you for facts.

[peace13]

14. The fact of the matter is that Cheney has been on Federal health care for over 30 years.

He actively stated that the rest of America was not 'entitled ' to health care. IMO the entire transplant was improper. When he can wake up and see that there is nothing special about Dick Cheney that entitles him to health care then I will celebrate the new heart.

The fact that he lied America into war and killed and maimed hundreds of thousands of people and then receives the very best health care is hard for me to reconcile. My hat is off to the medical team that had to swallow bile to get transplant done.

We talked last night about putting a disclaimer on our donation record! Who knows what affect this will have on donors.

[nobodyspecial]

19. What kind of disclaimer would you put?

No Republicans? Is that even enforceable?

[peace13]

29. That was the imply but..

It is not doable, just a dream. If it does turn out that he was too ill or old for the procedure I could see folks changing their status though.

[Nye Bevan]

17. Alleging that people conspired to commit fraud and bribery without any evidence whatsoever?

I trust the folks running the organ donor program to do their job professionally and with integrity. I certainly would not make these kind of allegations against these people without any evidence. If I didn't trust them, I would rip up my organ donor card.

The people making these unfounded allegations are undermining the whole program, by effectively encouraging people to stop being donors.

[GodlessBiker]

20. Not wrong to suggest, wrong to state as fact.

[toddwv]

22. Cheney is also a known alcoholic.

Remember when he got drunk and shot his hunting partner in the face?

Something stinks about his transplant.

[nobodyspecial]

23. Known alcoholic?

Link? Even if he was drunk one time, that doesn't make him an alcoholic. And, he could have drank in his past and now be abstinent.

[cthulu2016]

31. He had some DUIs early in his career

So it is a fair question as to whether he is an alcoholic in the AA sense of one always being an alcoholic, whether a drinking one or a non-drinking one.

But I don't recall any indication that Cheney was drunk in the last many, many years. Maybe there is, but I don't recall it.

[riderinthestorm]

26. No alcohol for 12 months prior to getting put on the list.

Cheney's been on the list for 20+ months with many, many labs that screen for drugs and alcohol.

[malaise]

25. YES

He's over 70

[Bladian]

60. Which, as has already been discussed...

in no way rules you out for a transplant. I mean for Christ's sake, I hate Cheney. He's a dirtbag. But how about we focus on the actual bad things he's done instead of making up fake hysteria over what, for all intents and purposes, was a perfectly normal heart transplant.

[lumberjack_jeff]

30. Evidence?

I got 'yer fucking evidence right here.

[cthulu2016]

33. That is eveidence that the transplant community accepts bribes?

That Cheney is a bad man is stipulated.

But transplant protocols that separated out "bad men" who haven't been convicted of anything would be shocking. Talk about death panels!

So Cheney's character is irrelevant to the question of the integrity of the transplant institution.

[lumberjack_jeff]

36. You're welcome to your opinion.

There was a man who, everyday, would buy a newspaper on the way to work, glance at the headline, and hand it back to the newsboy. Day after day the man would go through this routine. Finally the newsboy could not stand it and he asked the man, “Why do you always buy a paper and only look at the front page before discarding it?”
The man replied, “I am only interested in the obituaries.”
“But they are on page 21. You never even unfold the newspaper.”
“Young man,” he said, “the son of a bitch I’m looking for will be on the front page.”

The fact that the patient is vulnerable to a war crimes arrest in most other countries in which he could have sought care is relevant.

[AngryOldDem]

34. I think it's a fair to ask.

I had the same question when David Crosby got his liver transplant. Sure, his was bought and paid for, but what about everyone else waiting in the transplant line who isn't as fortunate to have the connections that celebrity brings?

When it comes to organ transplants, the playing field should be absolutely level, all things considered.

[malthaussen]

35. No, it is not "right"

It is, however, reasonable.

Asking questions is neither right nor wrong.

-- Mal

[deacon]

38. Well, we all deserve his health care coverage - thats what's wrong. n/t

[Lint Head]

40. Most certainly. He stopped the hearts of thousands. He does not deserve one heart.

[kestrel91316]

41. Cheney is fair game for any and all attacks, IMHO.

The man is pure evil.

[Major Hogwash]

43. You'd think that would be true here.

So, it is weird seeing this type of thread at the DU.

I guess we're all supposed to forgive and forget the vice president who told Senator Leahy to go fuck himself right on the Senate floor!

[cthulu2016]

59. "this type of thread"

Are you seriously just incapable of comprehending the words in front of you?

"This type of thread" is a thread in general defense of the organ transplantation establishement against the seemingly baseless charge (I have seen no basis, have you?) the Cheney bribed his way to a donor heart.

That is not an attack on Cheney, it is an attack on whoever would accept such a bribe.

Again, I'll say it slow... it... has... nothing... to... do... with... what... we... think... of... Cheney.

Suggesting he scammed his way to a heart is an attack on the integrity of the transplantation community, not on Cheney.

And it is a form of attack that has an established history of discouraging organ donations.

Unless DU has an established categorical opposition to organ donation then why wouldn't DU have "this kind of thread"?

Incredible.

[Major Hogwash]

61. Why didn't Cheney just shoot someone in the face again?

From closer range, and then cut out their heart?

[Rex]

42. We live in a plutocracy, some don't like it.

I don't, but it is the way it is. Cheney got favortism and got a new heart. It really sometimes is that simple.

[nobodyspecial]

49. What evidence do you have?

[appleannie1]

44. I recently lost a gay friend that they would not put on the transplant list. The reason

they gave was he lived too risky of a life style and they would rather give the heart to someone less likely to get a fatal disease.

He was in his 40's and had been in the same relationship for over 15 years. Seems to me that a 71 year old man with a number of serious health issues already should not even be considered under those same guide lines.

[greiner3]

46. The question I'm asking;

Is who donated their heart while they were still living and how much did they get?

[annabanana]

50. What? All of a sudden we have to worry about that war criminal's

FEELINGS?

[cthulu2016]

57. You seem to be lost

There isn't a word anywhere here about Cheney's feelings.

[Logical]

51. We will never know the whole story. The stats on the other people waiting, etc. And you will never..

really 100% know the condition of Cheney.

[Redneck Democrat]

53. It has nothing to do with improper influence, as he had to wait two years

The outrage is that a goddamn war criminal got a heart that might have saved the life of someone worthy!

[Gormy Cuss]

54. It's not so much jumping the line as it is a question of whether he, like other wealthy people

gamed the system by getting on multiple transplant waiting lists. Steve Jobs is purported to have done this . By being on the waiting list at multiple facilities it increases the odds that a suitable organ will be found sooner.

Most people don't have the wealth to pay for all of the pre-screening at multiple facilities or have the resources to fly to the transplant center at the drop of a hat. That's the difference.

Is it ethical? That's a tough question and certainly worth discussing here.

[FSogol]

55. Yes. n/t

[me b zola]

56. Cheney destroyed an entire nation without evidence that they wanted to do us harm

Not just invaded, destroyed. Over a million Iraqis are dead.

Since Cheney will never see justice I find it more than appropriate to assume that he uses his power and position to gain advantage over everyone else in whatever circumstance he chooses.

[H2O Man]

58. Yes.

[Odin2005]

63. I agree with you that these kind of insinuations discourage organ donation.

It's really stupid.

[onenote]

64. No its not. But, unfortunately, elevating belief over evidence has become all too common