Terrifying Precedent: Woman to Be Tried for Murder for Giving Birth to Stillborn When She Was 16

[kpete]

Terrifying Precedent: Woman to Be Tried for Murder for Giving Birth to Stillborn When She Was 16
Frightening gambit by pro-lifers to charge women for murder of stillborns due to 'fetal harm' is getting its day in court.
March 19, 2014 |




Rennie Gibbs’s daughter, Samiya, was a month premature when she simultaneously entered the world and left it, never taking a breath. To experts who later examined the medical record, the stillborn infant’s most likely cause of death was also the most obvious: the umbilical cord wrapped around her neck.

But within days of Samiya’s delivery in November 2006, Steven Hayne, Mississippi’s de facto medical examiner at the time, came to a different conclusion. Autopsy tests had turned up traces of a cocaine byproduct in Samiya’s blood, and Hayne declared her death a homicide, caused by “cocaine toxicity.”

In early 2007, a Lowndes County grand jury indicted Gibbs, a 16-year-old black teen, for “depraved heart murder” — defined under Mississippi law as an act “eminently dangerous to others…regardless of human life.” By smoking crack during her pregnancy, the indictment said, Gibbs had “unlawfully, willfully, and feloniously” caused the death of her baby. The maximum sentence: life in prison.

Seven years and much legal wrangling later, Gibbs could finally go on trial this spring — part of a wave of “fetal harm” cases across the country in recent years that pit the rights of the mother against what lawmakers, health care workers, prosecutors, judges, jurors, and others view as the rights of the unborn child.



more:
http://www.alternet.org/gender/terrifying-precedent-woman-be-tried-murder-giving-birth-stillborn-when-she-was-16

[Squinch]

1. At this rate we'll all be in burqas by 2050.

All these "you are just a vessel" cases and laws. How much you want to be that the next wave is a curtailment of available day care: making facilities satisfy impossible standards, the way they made abortion clinics have to be outfitted like hospitals. That will effectively get women out of the work force. Then we won't be able to own property or vote.

[freshwest]

41. Think what a Teabigot administration would do with health records. They'd go back and find every

woman who had an abortion or got a prescription for the morning after pill to be retroactively tried for murder.

The morning after pill isn't an abortifacient as the conception has not yet occured, but the Ignoratti won't listen. As far as they are concerned, every act of coitus requires every woman to reproduce and is why they are against birth control.

They are creating a new criminal class of all women who don't believe as they do about how their lives should be lived.

And people don't think voting changes anything, as they say, 'both parties are the same' and 'if voting changed anything, it'd be illegal.'

Those who say that are neither women, minorities or poor. So they don't give a flying leap what the Teabigots do to those being effected RIGHT NOW.

The world is fast becoming a terrifying place for women, and no one cares most days. Will women vote this year and push back the tide before it's too late?

[Squinch]

43. I totally agree. And don't look now, but now you can add any woman who delivered a stillborn baby.

Next stop: criminalizing miscarriage.

I am with you about the "both parties are the same" crowd. The Democrats are not trying to slam women back to the kitchen and laundry room, back to unwanted pregnancy and parenthood, and back to a non-voting status.

We don't think it can happen here, but I was brought up really short by a photo some DUer (I wish I could remember who so I could attribute it!) posted about Saudi women in a college in the 70's wearing stylish dresses and looking happy.

Our rights can be stolen away, and will if we let them.

[cindge]

47. Have you ever read

Have you ever read The Handmaid's Tale? Fiction, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Handmaid's_Tale, all about how a perfectly normal society turned into...well... what some speculate we're turning into. It's truly horrifying, the end conclusion of an extreme theocracy, and the ultimate of "a woman is only a vessel".

Scary stuff.

[Squinch]

49. Yes. One of my favorites, along with all of Margaret Atwood's other books.

The reason it was so scary was that it was so recognizable.

Luckily, I can no longer be used as a breeder. Phew!

[cindge]

66. Ooh, now I've got to look for her other books.

Thanks for the idea/recommendation. Nor can I be used as a breeder. Never could, actually, because I knew my rights and had the MEANS to execute them as I saw fit. And, since I would be a terrible parent, the world is a better place. Not everyone is cut out to be a parent.

Anyway, the book always made me think about making sure I had a passport, cash, means of my own, etc. Much like a Zombie Apocalypse.

[Squinch]

110. Oh, you have to read her other books. Cat's Eye is good. Also Alias Grace, Bluebeard's Ghost.

She is such a fabulous writer. And I remember reading one of her very early books when I was very young and being amazed at some of the attitudes and ideas in it. They were completely new to me. Later I came to realize they were just feminist ideas, written well.

[Lunacee_2013]

149. I now hate that book.

It's getting too close to reality for me. I read it several years age and thought it could never happen. That it was just a dark fantasy. A few weeks after I read the book, I heard about a case were a young girl was being investigated for murder after she gave birth to a still-born baby that was 3 months premature. Both she and her family said they had no idea she was even pregnant. I don't know how it ended, but just the thought that a woman could be jailed for having a miscarriage is horrible. WFT is wrong with these people? Hasn't she gone through enough? It's like the lives of women don't matter at all. Why don't we get to control what happens inside our own bodies? It's no one else's decision to make. No ones! What is so goddamn hard to understand about that?!

[tea and oranges]

51. You & Squinch

One of the steps on the way to fascism is to give men control over women. In this way, men have an outlet for the rage they feel at their own oppression, women are under control, & misery reigns in the land. Except for the evil rich bastards who enjoy the power, but the misery is a sort of bonus.

[jmowreader]

148. They'd have to destroy the Constitution to do it

That would be an ex post facto law - unconstitutional in the extreme. I am sure they'd try it, but any lawmaker who'd try such a thing would get raked over the coals by the first judge to come along.

[freshwest]

150. They fully intend to destroy the Constiution. Ryan has promised that with a majority of RED states,

they'll call for a Constitutional convention. His first pledge is to get rid of Birthright Citizenship. That's part of the 14th, but that Amendment also clarified the 4th and reinforced Due Process and Equal Protection Under The Law. This is what most Americans have lived under.

The Tenther Movement has been calling for the repeal of all Amendment after the 10th - and they have worked to make this agenda happen state by state. We can't afford to rest on the laurels of those of the work of the past in securing those rights and by a Civil War and passing amendments to extend the voting franchise to others than white male landowners.

And we don't even to imagine the kind of Constitution the Teabigots want for us. See my post here in this thread about what they've created in some states and want it done on a national level:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024692819#post85

They've shown their hand on civil rights of all kinds. They are funded by the Koches and they would rewrite the entire document if they could. They are not playing. The Koch brothers are funding $30M in ads to defeat Democrats in elections held this year on the local, state and national level. It's a pivotal year. They intend to change the Constitution:

But if they do, we can kiss Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, ACA, EPA and every other thing that came from or grew out of the New Deal and the progressive 1970s goodbye forever.

These fascists are not playing around and they are very close to dividing this nation up into Koch kingdoms. Complacency or bickering is not the answer to 2014.

Lose that and there are red states aplenty who can and will call for a Constitutional convention to repeal all the amendments after the 10th. All they need is 38 states with GOP majority in their state houses to overrule the millions of us who don't live in those states, while they grind their own citizenry under crony capitalism and theocracy.

The nihilism of the right and the left will meet under the guise of rooting out their special demons, welcoming a new way of doing things, or so they think. Only to be swept away by media propaganda, by, for and of the rich only. We see this more and more.

They won't stop until the real prize they want, the federal government is up for grabs. Which is what a Constitutional convention does.

Americans have lived under those protections such as the 14th enshrined, Birthright Citizenship, Due Process and Equal Protection Under the Law, with what they entail and the laws that have been based on them. Those go all the way through women's right to vote, and have been in place for so long they believe they are a written in stone. The GOP wants a return to the Articles of Confederation.

Even the first ten amendments did not end slavery, period, but the Tenthers don't care. The first ten did not allow full suffrage. They did not allow women any control of their bodies. It did not allow direct elections. The GOP does not want that, they want the rich and powerful to be in charge. These facts are conveniently left out in diatribes about privacy and civil liberties.

The left is in denial, thinking cheering media mockery is sufficient. It never was, it was added into politics to divide and not find solutions. They ignored the clear voices from the right on their intentions, national personhood laws, right to work laws with no minimum wage, voting rights, regulations, ending all the social safety net.

Both extremes now revel in the destruction of the old ways they mock, as Democrats comfort themselves with the notion 'wiser heads will prevail' and walk away from their civic responsibility. They have decided they don't need to show up in local and state elections to affect regional policy and then the national policy.

One example of many, charter schools and other regressive institutions didn't come out of D.C., no matter who wants to point the finger there, the states who wanted them after years of media and religious attacks on public eduation went to Washington instead. D.C. is reacting to the reality on the ground in the states, being voted in by supporters of theocracy and maniacs put in state office in the yearly and midterm elections.

The 2010 midterm virtually destroyed this nation. Those put in office by propaganda have not slowed their agenda, as the money keeps pouring in to buy new adherents. Those who didn't vote for reasons they have now forgotten, still point fingers upward, and it changes nothing.

Reid has been rightfully afraid of changing the rules. He is not a coward, he is a realist. He has seen these maniacs up close; we only see glimpses. This is a clever form of treason in slow motion and Reid gets no help from the sleeping public who doesn't vote to replace these demagogues.

Ryan's plan is close to reality, with calls for a Constitutional convention. The GOP will rewrite the nation's legal framework according to the ALEC model. It will be full fascist rule, nowhere to turn for redress. People will be forced to deal with those who expect a bribe to be paid to do anything. For those without the money to bribe, they'll get nothing and likely lose all that they have.

People on the 'left' have been asleep at the ballot too long, falling for media tactics and not voting, being distracted by anything to demoralize us. We haven't seen anything yet and it is coming. If we lose in 2014, that's it for me, I won't even bother to talk about any of it anymore.


http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4069652

http://metamorphosis.democraticunderground.com/10024066844#post3

[demigoddess]

178. I think they could rationalize doing so

because of the nature of the crime or some such. Yes, Handmaid's Tale, here we come. Any day now.

[xxqqqzme]

116. Have to keep

re-populating the corporate prisons to satisfy the shareholders.

[jsr]

130. Yep.

[get the red out]

133. That's what they want

But I'm hoping we've passed the critical mass of demographic change for them to ever get it, but they will cause a lot of problems for women until we can squelch them for good.

[redqueen]

2. This framing: "the rights of the unborn child"

needs to be fought tooth and nail. Every time.

IT IS NOT A GODDAMNED CHILD.

[ErikJ]

6. Bible says its not human until it takes its 1st breath.

[RC]

13. And not only that, the christening is 30 days after the birth, assuming it survives that long.

Until then, it is not recognized as being a person, as it has no name.

[Gormy Cuss]

23. My greatgrand mother gave birth to six children.

My grandfather and one other lived long enough to be christened. The other four are buried in the "Angel's Row" with only a surname.

[ErikJ]

97. What, in Hebrew tradition?

[leftynyc]

102. Jews don't get christened (n/t)

[RC]

111. That was/is their tradition.

And with good reason. If babies survived the first month, the odds were fairly good they would survive to grow up. Before that it was a crap shoot if they would last that first month.

[nadinbrzezinski]

124. Jews do not get christened

But there is a ceremony at temple where a baby receives his/her name. Nothing fancy mind you. It is like today we celebrate the birth of so and so to be known as so and so, we move on to the rest of the service.

If this is the first and is a boy, you buy him back from temple service.

It used to be that except for weddings most Jewish ceremonies were that low key. My father described his bar mitzvah as the day he was called to read Torah. Afterwards they had a slice of herring, with dark bread and a glass of vodka, and life went on.

The baby is considered a person once out of the womb. If they die before the ceremony, like this baby did, they are buried only with the last name of parents. But they are considered people.

[ErikJ]

131. But its law to have a name at birth

for the birth certificate. No?

[nadinbrzezinski]

132. That is secular law

And has nothing to do with any religious tradition.

[Mariana]

142. Which law is that please? nt.

[ErikJ]

143. The Birth Certificate Law

You have to have a name for the baby by the time you leave the hospital. So they can do the birth certificate thingy.

[leftyohiolib]

24. i never heard that where and in which bible - not trying to start a fight just want to read that

[ErikJ]

42. It says it in a few places-heres' 2

In Job 33:4, it states: “The spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.”

Again, to quote Ezekiel 37:5&6, “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

http://www.thechristianleftblog.org/1/post/2012/10/the-bible-tells-us-when-a-fetus-becomes-a-living-being.html

[LeftyMom]

56. The bible also says that the punishment for murder is death and the punishment for inducing

a miscarriage is a monetary fine. It also has a recipe for an herbal abortion tonic to be given to pregnant women whose faithfulness is in question (it's in the fifth chapter of Numbers.)

[Warpy]

61. The bible had no problem with abortion, neither did Jesus

When the Pope thought the Catholics were losing the baby race against Protestants, he suddenly got fussy about the whole thing. Since he bore the burden of infallibility, they've been stuck with it since then.

The one bit of science the church will never accept is human reproductive science. They would still rather relegate women to animated flowerpots, without voices and without rights should there be the slightest chance they might be pregnant.

And fundy churches followed them like little puppy dogs.

[ErikJ]

93. Which Pope?

Have any idea which Pope first decreed the anti-choice thing?

[Warpy]

96. Pope Sixtus in 1588

removed all distinction from the various stages of pregnancy when abortion might be performed and condemned every bit of it.

Until that rat bastard, abortions performed before quickening, or when the woman first felt movement, were looked down on as a sometimes necessary evil.

[ErikJ]

99. Here's the Wikipedia entry

Contraception, abortion, adultery --Pope Sixtus

Sixtus extended the penalty of excommunication relating to the Roman Catholic Church's teaching on contraception and abortion. While the Church taught that abortion and contraception were gravely sinful actions ("mortal sins&quot , it did not apply to all mortal sins the additional penalty of excommunication.[14] Although homicide had always required this penalty, contraception had not. Patristic and Medieval theologians and physicians had long speculated and debated over the exact moment the fertilised egg became a human being. While there was broad agreement among them that life was present at conception and that it could only become a human being, the thinking was that this did not necessarily mean God had infused the rational, immortal soul into the body at conception.

Following Aristotle, many in the West had theorized that the matter had to be prepared to a certain point before this could happen and, prior to then, there was only a vegetative or sensitive soul, but not a human soul. This meant that killing an organism before the human soul is infused would still be a grave sin of abortion (or at least contraception), but that it was not properly a homicide and, thus, did not require excommunication.

Some theologians argued that only after proof of the "quickening" (when the mother can feel the fetus's movement in her womb, usually about 20 weeks into gestation) that there was incontrovertible evidence that ensoulment had already occurred. Until Sixtus V, canon lawyers had applied the code from Gratian whereby excommunications were only given to abortions after the quickening. In 1588, however, the pope issued a papal bull, Effraenatam ("Without Restraint&quot , which declared that the canonical penalty of excommunication would be levied for any form of contraception and for abortions at any stage in fetal development.[14] The reasoning on the latter would be that the soul of the unborn child would be denied Heaven.[15]

Sixtus also attempted in 1586 to introduce into the secular law in Rome the Old Testament penalty for adultery, that is death. The measure ultimately failed.[16]

[Enthusiast]

100. Pope Sixtus was infallible. So we must accept his decree.

I kid.

[ohheckyeah]

92. Genesis 2:7

Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person.

[snooper2]

117. That sounds like a comic book story

fucking bible

[leftyohiolib]

104. thankyou

[LeftOfWest]

12. This.

Exactly.

I will fight it forever.

[bettyellen]

3. This is outrageous. Damn.

[redqueen]

4. The writing was on the wall when they started jailing women for falling down stairs while pregnant.

http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2010/02/15/pregnant-dont-fall-down-stairs/

Women need to turn out in HUGE numbers on election day. And we need to be raising these issues with other women regularly leading up to that day.

[PeaceNikki]

8. Sing it, sister.

This shit is serious.

[theHandpuppet]

86. Absolutely!!!

We have the power to kick their Neanderthal asses back to the Stone Age where they belong.

[geardaddy]

134. You're giving Neanderthals a bad rap there.

Kick these idiots whatever they are back to whatever rock they crawled out from.

[Lunacee_2013]

152. Holy shit!

My mom fell when she was preggers with my last little sister. W.T.F. Is wrong with these people!?
Would they have arrested her? A teacher, a daycare worker, a mother of four, a Sunday school teacher?

Hey you "pro-life" assholes:

Outlawing abortion only kills women!

Outlawing abortion turns women into objects!

Outlawing abortion doesn't stop abortion, it makes it more dangerous!

Outlawing abortion is wrong! Don't like it? DON'T HAVE ONE! It is none of your god damn business what another human being does with her own fucking body! Her body, her choice! Until that fucking thing is coming out of her, it is none of your concern!

Sorry, I really don't mean to yell at you, especially since you yourself are pro-choice. I'm just fucking pissed that we're still debating this shit. Pregnancy is something that only happens inside our (women's) bodies. It is very personal. It is also dangerous. It can kill us, if we are not careful. Men will never know what it feels like. When it comes right down to it, they have no say, no right to tell us what to do.

I can get pregnant, however many doctors have told me that because of my health issues, it might kill me, or at least damage my kidneys and shorten my lifespan. I will never have bio-kids, I don't give a shit what the pope or any other man or woman says. Fuck them, they don't know what I've been through and they have no right, no fucking right at all to tell me, or anyone, what to do with our bodies.

Women really need to vote, and vote often. The parties are not the same. Yes, they both take money from big donors and I wish they didn't. I wish the Dems were more progressive, but the repubs are worse! They want us back in the kitchen, pregnant and barefoot, slaves to our biology! Don't let that happen again! Stand up for your rights and vote!

[Whisp]

5. omg, don't know what to say...

[PeaceNikki]

7. Anyone who doesn't take women's rights seriously needs to wake the fuck up.

We need to stop fetishizing the fetus.

Just sick.

[theHandpuppet]

87. +1,000,000

[JI7]

9. and of course she is black

i think they feel and may be right in thinking they can put a black woman away for something like this and it might not get teh same outrage that might with a white woman.

[JoeyT]

20. African Americans and other minorities are usually where overreachers dip a toe in the water.

Almost every awful action by police and prosecutors that's widespread now was used almost exclusively against minorities for years. It's how they refine their defenses of it, and get society accustomed to ignoring it. Then they switch to poor whites and see if there is an outcry. If there isn't one, all systems are go and they start doing it everywhere.

If we want to know what will be standard in a few years, all we have to do is look at how minorities are treated today.

[Nay]

22. Oh, exactly. First they enact draconian decisions against people who 1) are

less able to fight back, and 2) are reviled by a substantial portion of the rest of society. As you say, over a period of time they get everyone used to it, and off they go.

[Enthusiast]

101. Black women can't fire a warning shot in Florida.

So......you are right.

[sheshe2]

10. And sadly

But some civil libertarians and women’s rights advocates worry that if Gibbs is convicted, the precedent could inspire more prosecutions of Mississippi women and girls for everything from miscarriage to abortion — and that African Americans, who suffer twice as many stillbirths as whites, would be affected the most.

Mississippi has one of has one of the worst records for maternal and infant health in the U.S., as well as some of the highest rates of teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted disease and among the most restrictive policies on abortion. Many of the factors that have been linked to prenatal and infant mortality — poverty, poor nutrition, lack of access to healthcare, pollution, smoking, stress — are rampant there.

http://www.alternet.org/gender/terrifying-precedent-woman-be-tried-murder-giving-birth-stillborn-when-she-was-16

A terrifying and dangerous precedent.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

113. Yes. Deny them healthcare and then arrest them for not caring for the fetus. nt

[PeaceNikki]

11. Coroners are elected officials in Mississippi who do not require a medical degree.

Hopefully she will appear before a judge with a degree in law.

[etherealtruth]

15. Seriously ...?

That would explain the poor fellow that woke up in a body bag in Mississippi.

[PeaceNikki]

17. No, no, no, that was a *miracle*, you see.

Seriously. More than 1,500 counties in the US elect coroners and most don't require MD. It's in here: http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/28/us/dead-man-comes-back-life/

[etherealtruth]

19. OMG

Well, I guess we get what we "pay for" .... or elect

[CrispyQ]

26. I. Had. No. Idea.

[YOHABLO]

48. MISSISSIPPI .. hate to say it but when I hear anything that comes out of that State >

it makes me shrug .. I'm just two States over in GEORGIA and things aren't quite as bad .. but not good.

[KamaAina]

126. Hence the saying "Thank God for Mississippi!"

usually heard in its neighbors Alabama and Louisiana to express a similar sentiment.

[JJChambers]

106. Why did you post this?

Are you deliberately trying to mislead or simply getting your wires crossed? In any case, when someone posts alarmist BS like this, it detracts from the legitimate horror at hand. FYI, there is a major difference between a MEDICAL EXAMINER and a CORONER; they do two very different jobs. And in this case, the person referenced in the article was an ME and WAS a doctor. So please be careful what you post going forward.

Steven Hayne's BIO from Wiki:

Dr. Steven Hayne was a forensic pathologist from the US state of Mississippi who had attracted significant controversy surrounding his medical practices and testimony in criminal trials, most notably those of Cory Maye, Jimmie Duncan, and Tyler Edmonds.[1][2][3] Hayne graduated from Brown Medical School in 1974 and interned until 1976 at Letterman Army Medical Center in San Francisco, California. After finishing his internship, he practiced medicine in California, Kentucky, and Alabama, before settling in Mississippi in 1987.[1]

[Spitfire of ATJ]

14. What's sad is all of these MEN would agree that life begins at 50.

[blackspade]

16. Just now going to trial? WTH?

[Ilsa]

18. I think women need to get on some heavy-duty birth control as

soon as menarche. Problem pregnancies can occur with young teens, especially if pregnancy was unplanned. I guess avoiding pregnancy, then hiding it until one gives birth to a perfect child will be the only way to avoid prosecution.

[dbackjon]

21. This will lead to...

Is daily pregnancy testing for all women.

Once you are found to be pregnant (and if you don't get pregnant once every couple years, the state will send a HS football team over to help you out), you will be confined to your home. Only approved food and drink will be allowed in the house.

You will be allowed daily exercise, visits to the church, etc.



Women - child-bearing is your only reason to be here on earth. Just lie back and accept it.

[Swede Atlanta]

25. And this is why progressives fight to access to birth control....

Look, I have no access to the "facts" of this case. We don't know if the ME is a totally religious nut case that if she had a trace of cocaine in her system she is guilty of causing the death of the fetus or not.

I do believe that pregnant mothers need to be aware of, and respect, behaviors that may affect the development and health of their unborn children.

On the other hand this may have been a young woman who had few options. She had sex with a partner and got pregnant. She is an abuser.

What do we, as a society do with them? We toss them on the human dumpster. We don't care about them or offer them hope.

[Half-Century Man]

32. There were no traces of cocaine in her system

There were traces of "a cocaine byproduct".

What "byproduct"; in what amount?
Does anything else also produce this "byproduct"?
What test was used; how accredited is this testing method?

[tea and oranges]

50. Right On!

How trumped up is this shit?

[Half-Century Man]

53. Motivation?

I'd guess racism, misogyny, and pro-life dogma.

But: Never attribute to malice those things easily explained by stupidity.
The "forensic pathologist" worked nearly 5 times the amount of cases per year over the maximum allow for accreditation by the National Association of Medical Examiners. In vanity and stupidity he became grossly incompetent.

[uponit7771]

58. Fuckin wow! Not even cocaine!

[haele]

118. And can this "byproduct" be replicated by otherwise legal or prescribed substances -

Like Tylenol with Codine, perhaps? Or some other pain medication or cough medication she might have taken?

I suspect someone just wants to make a name for him or herself by protecting society from degenerates and sub-humans.

(Sorry for the borderline Godwin; we are going through the World at War box set at home, and it's becoming a scarily similar social/political environment again)

Haele

[Half-Century Man]

121. It might not even be from an OTC medication or "herbal supplement".

Some of the earlier or cheaper whiz quiz kits could be fooled by poppy seeds on a bagel to reading a hit for codeine. Granted you had to ingest 6 or 7 bagels, or 3 poppy seed pasty filled hamentashen (a pastry traditionally served at Purim). I like hamentashen.

I had to retest with the more precise tests three times over the years.

[Thinkingabout]

27. This is government overreach, even with prenatal care problems still occurs. I would wonder in this

situation did the mother receive needed prenatal care. Maybe we can file charges against all those who voted against health care in the past just to be fair.

[freshwest]

85. Why a Wisconsin woman was jailed:

Last edited Thu Mar 20, 2014, 02:19 AM - Edit history (1)

She was 14 weeks pregnant and thought she had done the right thing when, at a prenatal checkup, she described a pill addiction the previous year and said she had ended it on her own - something later verified by a urine test. But now an apparently skeptical doctor and a social worker accused her of endangering her unborn child because she had refused to accept their order to start on an anti-addiction drug.

Ms. Beltran, 28, was taken in shackles before a family court commissioner who, she says, brushed aside her pleas for a lawyer. To her astonishment, the court had already appointed a legal guardian for the fetus.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101677037

A few links to things are being done to women right now in this country. In every case, the words of the women mean nothing when Teabigots are allowed by their voting block or non-voter to rule over us:

Iowa Woman Jailed for Thinking about an Abortion

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x640964

Pregnant Woman Attempts Suicide; Survives; Now In Jail Facing Feticide And Murder Charges

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x888606

At What Point in Pregnancy Does a Woman's Personhood End?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022608078

This one matches Ralph Reed's position as posted this week:

Judge won't let woman divorce while she's pregnant (WA State)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1112992

Here's one that has been discussed openly by Teabigots. This is not a new view, period.

Quindlen: How Much Jail Time for Women Who Have Abortions?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=217x5771

Pregnant? That Might Get You Arrested

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125514262

Tea Party: Impregnated Rape Victims Who Abort Should Be Jailed As Long As Their Rapist (VIDEO)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023285834

This is exactly what the Teabigots want to do here in the USA:

This is what it looks like when a country makes abortion illegal--El Salvador

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021200076

The GOP in MI just nominated a candidate who says gays and abortion are responsible for tornadoes, etc. The Teabigots are going to make being born female a curse and constantly suspected of being a criminal.

This isn't just any 'government overreach.' It is government under GOP and Teabigot rule. Obama and Democrats are clearly against the kind of laws and the execution of laws in the way the GOP and their Teabigots are using them to dehumanize women.

Some may think those stories can be interpreted as proper government administration or make excuses for them. This was not the case until the personhood movement made it an issue, state by state. Or nationally, as the Teabigot Rand Paul has tried to hold up nearly every budget under Obama by insisting that such laws be nationalized, and a national RTW law to end unions and his other schemes.

I hope that those who care about women will vote them out of office, but it appears the Koch propaganda will have them staying home and the Teabigots will continue to drag this country into fascism on the way to the stone age. What I find particularly galling is the silence or 'why don't you just shut up and let the boys talk' attitude about this everywhere.

Not saying you. That's a generic statement.

[knitter4democracy]

91. This should be a post on its own.

We are all headed towards Handmaid's Tale if we're not careful.

[BlancheSplanchnik]

114. I'm too angry and nauseated to say anything in this thread....

Your post says it all.

[Half-Century Man]

28. The discredited QUACK Steven Hayne testimony?

Just a quick check on Wiki (the most basic of checks) lists 3 major cases Dr. Hayne testified for the prosecution overturned due to very bad pathology.

Until 2008, Hayne performed about 80 to 90 percent of criminal autopsies in Mississippi,[4][5] and has testified to performing more than 1,500 autopsies per year.[1] Performing more than 325 autopsies per year is considered a "Phase II deficiency" by the National Association of Medical Examiners, and prevents an office from being accredited.[6][7][8] While performing these autopsies, Hayne also regularly appeared in court to testify as a forensic expert, and held down two hospital jobs.[9]

A peruse down the hits on DuckDuckGo list seven more not included in the Wiki write up.

[ck4829]

29. Something really doesn't add up here, the prosecutor's case to be exact.

So they find byproducts of cocaine, but not the cocaine in the blood?

And of course the ME has a track record of fudging reports.

Something's really not right here.

[sunnystarr]

123. She was only 15

Is it possible she was on ADHD meds? They are almost identical to cocaine and meth chemically and have been used to treat those addicted to cocaine. Just sayin ... since so many students now are put on those drugs.

[tooeyeten]

30. Another country

Figured the charge was being made outside of America, and of course I was correct.

[yardwork]

38. Mississippi. Or are you trying to make a joke?

Mississippi is part of the U.S.

[tooeyeten]

62. Not a joke

Is Mississippi's treatment of women.


But yes my original remark was intended as sarcasm.

[TxDemChem]

31. This shit is ridiculous

For any man who brings stress into his wife or girlfriend's life while pregnant, and she miscarried, he should be charged with murder. If they are going to start throwing out bullshit, I have a few male politicians that I am sure deserve to be charged as well.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

33. My son is alive only because they caught this while he was being born.

Doc figured it out by noticing his heart rate declining dramatically every time my wife pushed. They did a c section, cut the cord, and that was that.
This poor woman should have sued whoever delivered that baby. Maybe she still can...

[Maedhros]

34. This ruling is stupid. Period.

The medical examiner is clearly using this young woman to grind an axe.

However I do have a serious question that is not meant to start a fight and is not meant to undermine women's rights, but which I think is reasonable to ask.

At what point would charges against a mother be appropriate in cases of "fetal abuse", for lack of a better term?

For example, mothers who drink during pregnancy and give birth to a child with Fetal Alcohol Syndrome? Or mothers who smoke during pregnancy, whose child has severe asthma? These activities can have long-term deleterious affects on the life of the child, and the resulting health problems are preventable.

Is there a point in which the state has an obligation to protect the unborn child? (The answer may be "no", but at first glance it seems that in some cases the answer may be "yes.&quot .

[cindge]

52. I think your question is valid, but perhaps unanswerable.

There have been studies where the age of the father contributed to birth defects. Just this week, something came out, about pollution contributing to autism. (I don't agree or disagree with anything, just saying). There are 20 gazillion things that "could" contribute to a negative outcome. Stress, diet, vitamins, evil spirits, etc. One glass of wine is okay, but not two?

Sure, the girl shouldn't have done cocaine (IF, she in fact did), while pregnant. IF, she knew she was pregnant. There are a hundred "shoulda, coulda, wouldas" a day when gestating.

I think the "fetal abuse" angle is iffy at best. What about procreating when there is a known likelihood of a genetic defect? How about having more children when the first 3 have had defects? Multiple births where the health of at least one is compromised? And what defines a defect?

LOTS of things are preventable. HoneyBooBoo was preventable, and look at that spectacle. You are right, that people in general should take better care. But, there are probably more people screwing their kids up AFTER birth than before.

I don't think we can legislate away stupidity.

My question is, did this CLEARLY unprepared for motherhood girl have access to birth control? Abortion? Maybe that's where the failing lies.

[Maedhros]

71. No question the solution to the problems you described is education and access

to contraception or pre/post-natal medical care.

You're probably right about the question being unanswerable.

[Crunchy Frog]

54. Never.

You threaten women with prosecution and all you will do is drive them away from prenatal care and getting help with any issues they may have.

It is not a person with rights until it is out of the mother's body. Period.

[Arugula Latte]

120. Never. ... Education about pre-natal care is a much better tactic than prosecution.

[loudsue]

35. It had to be Mississippi.

I'm so sick of this shit!

[Lancero]

36. I agree with her being charged, just not what they are charging her with.

The health effects on children who are exposed to drugs - Be it tobacco, alcohol, or cocaine - are widely known.

Does she deserve to be charged for using drugs while pregnant? If it can be detected in the childs bloodsteam after birth, or the child is born with a defect linked to such use, then damn straight she should be charged with something.

But what killed the child wasn't the cocaine - It was the umbilical choking her to death.

I don't know what exactly she should be charged with. Endangering the welfare of a minor perhaps? But still, Samiya's cause of death was natural, and thus not something her mother should be charged for.

[mrmpa]

39. Charged for using drugs while pregnant??????????

That's insane. She was/is/maybe an addict, with no help while pregnant and you want to charge her. Was the man who impregnated her an addict, should he be charged?

She should not be charged for what she did, was there education available to her about the effects on the pregnancy, was there education available to her about birth control?

Your statement, "she should be charged with something" is outrageous, just because you don't like the outcome, come on. Until our society has the resources to avoid the outcome you don't like, no woman should be charged with "something."

[pragmatic_dem]

44. cause of death was also the most obvious: the umbilical cord wrapped around her neck.

Should we demand pregnant women be given weekly drug and alcohol tests during their term?

Or, maybe, just maybe, there are some real fucking crimes being committed by rich white people who are fucking up life for everyone else on the planet.

[Lancero]

79. Which, if you actually read my post...

You'd have seen that I had said that - What killed her was the umbilical cord, a natural cause, and one hardly worthy of a murder charge.

I'm not going to debate you on the, as you put it, 'real fucking crimes'. There are other topics for that. This one is about a woman being charged with murder for a natural, but tragic, occurrence.

As for drug tests, no. They want to use something? Fine. Their choice. But if their choice results in the injury or death of another, then they should face the consequences.

[pragmatic_dem]

82. Really? 16year old kid? Same for rich white girls who

take a few drinks every now and then during pregnancy? How are you going to know if they are injuring their baby - maybe they are injuring their kid by eating at McDonalds every day.

And what should the consequences be that you are calling for. Clearly you believe this is a serious and widespread issue to demand consequences for all the careless women out there.

To satisfy your concern for the fetus, we would require regular drug testing of all pregnant women. You know, like those stop and search procedures that police use to catch drunk drivers.

Otherwise, how will your passion to protect the unborn be satisfied?

[ohheckyeah]

95. Oh, fuck that sideways. n/t

[morningfog]

105. Get lost.

[riderinthestorm]

45. wtf??!! She may not even have known she was pregnant! Irregular periods are a common teen

issue. Its a common enough complaint for adult women and you are going to criminalize that?!

[uponit7771]

59. There were no drugs found in her system

[LeftyMom]

60. How would that improve her circumstances?

Would it make her a better mother when she becomes one?

How much time in prison should a traumatized teenager do when you can't even think of an appropriate charge?

[tblue37]

63. Women often have no idea that they are pregnant until weeks or even a couple of months

into the pregnancy, especially if they are not trying to conceive. Meanwhile, the first trimester, during which time a woman often is unaware that she is pregnant, is the gestational period most risky for fetal damage.

Some heavier women don't realize they're pregnant until they deliver. Sure, they probably are in serious denial, but I know it happens, because it happened to the sister of a girl I knew in high school, and I have since read of other such cases.

[Lancero]

64. That justify's her using illegal drugs (cocaine) how?

[LeftyMom]

68. That's not how apostrophes work.

Go read this. Commit it to memory. http://theoatmeal.com/comics/apostrophe

English is a perfectly serviceable language and you're ruining it because you didn't pay attention in the third grade.

[Lancero]

70. That relates to this topic how?

With how quick you are to try and change this topics discussion point, you seem more of a Righty then a Lefty.

Can we try to keep this discussion on topic? Hm? Or, do you happen to have the attention span of a third grader?

[LeftyMom]

72. I asked you a question upthread and you didn't answer.

A message board is a text-based medium. If you can't communicate via text you might want to take up shouting on street corners.

[Lancero]

75. Because your question was already answered.

She would be a better mother if she didn't choose to expose her children to substances that have proven health risks.

If you can't read, then perhaps you'd be better off listening to people who shout from street corners.

[LeftyMom]

76. So we can add teenagers, drug abuse and addiction to the list of things you don't understand.

Right behind grammar, and ahead of threaded message boards. The reply button was under my question, you didn't reply to it. I'm not obligated to read every fool thing you post.

[blueamy66]

167. LOL

[nomorenomore08]

98. "...you seem more of a Righty then a Lefty."

You're the one buying into right-wing framing about the supposed "rights" of embryos and fetuses. The logical outcome of which is to reduce a woman to less than a human being.

[freebrew]

115. He has also bought into the RW meme...

that ALL drugs are bad. Cocaine isn't addictive, any information out there is suspect because of the way the DEA works.
Why should anyone go to jail for using drugs? Total BS.

[Lucky Luciano]

140. Cocaine is addictive.

Many people have severe problems and have lost everything due to coke. People very often stay up all night doing line after line of coke (meaning every 20minutes or so) to keep the party going.

Agreed - it is not nearly as addictive as heroine or tobacco in the physical sense, but it is definitely addictive.

[nomorenomore08]

156. So many nights staying up past dawn, half-hoping there's none left and half-hoping there is...

I was never a hard-core cokehead - wasn't my main drug of choice anyway - but I know for sure it ain't candy.

[freebrew]

165. No, it's not.

Cocaine may be hard to stop, but not addictive in the sense that heroin and barbiturates are.

Addiction isn't measured by how much you've lost. There are addictive personalities that get 'hooked' on almost anything. A friend stopped using drugs and started drinking coffee, to excess. Then, he stopped that and started weightlifting, again to excess. It's the person, not the drug.

[nomorenomore08]

155. I agree no one should go to jail for using drugs. But cocaine is certainly addictive even if

not in the same way that, say, heroin is. And that goes for powder just as much as rock, there's really not a huge difference between the two - don't ask me how I know this.

Marijuana, by and large, is no more addictive than caffeine or sugar, and possibly less so. But we're not talking about weed here, are we now?

[pipi_k]

74. Wow

That's pretty nasty

And really, insulting someone on the basis of his or her spelling, grammar, or punctuation is nothing more than proof that one could not debate THE POINT itself.

[Logical]

146. Most are insecure and want to sound important. n-t

[Logical]

145. What a stupid response to a post. You grammar police must be insecure as hell. n-t

[tblue37]

69. You were not arguing about punishing drug users--but if you were,

you need to remember that drug addiction is a medical problem that needs treatment, not criminalization and incarceration.

But you were not saying she should be charged merely for using drugs, but that she should be charged for "endangering the welfare of a minor"--and BTW, a fetus is not a "minor" in law! Your argument was about punishing her for using drugs *while pregnant*, but since women often don't even know they are pregnant, punishing them for not "taking proper care" of a fetus they quite possibly don't know they're carrying is absurd.

[Lancero]

73. I was arguing that her being charged with murder for a natural...

But tragic occurrence is a over reach. And that if they wanted to charge her with something, then they should instead focus on her, unrelated, drug use.

As I've said, she shouldn't be charged with murder. Something many of those trying to divert the discussion wish to ignore.

[tblue37]

78. There were no drugs in her system, and "cocaine byproducts" in the fetus could mean

anything, and not necessarily drug use.

Besides, you said she should be charged with something like "endangering the welfare of a minor" for using drugs, NOT that she should be charged for drug use per se. Besides the fact that a fetus is not legally a "minor," she might not have been using drugs (no drugs were found in her system, and as with other signs of supposed drug use, those "by-products" might have been caused by something else), and even if she had used them, she might not have known she was pregnant when she did so, and thus your desire to see her charged for *"endangering the welfare of a minor"* remains an absurd and absurdly punitive stance.

And as far as charging people for using drugs goes, I still insist they need treatment for a health problem, not criminalization and imprisonment.

[Lancero]

80. As I've said...

I wasn't sure exactly what charge was applicable. I do know that a charge for such circumstances does exist, but I couldn't remember it.

If a drunk driver wrecks, and paralyzes someone, should that driver be let free? If a drunk driver wrecks, and kill's someone, should the driver be let free? I'm not saying jail all the drug users. I'm saying charge the ones whose actions harm the lives of others, as dictated by law.

Choices have consequences. If you choose to drink and drive, and kill someone because of it, you should face the consequences of that action. The same applies for anything drug related.

[tblue37]

81. But sincea woman might have no idea that she is pregnant, how on earth could she

be considered to be liable for, say, drinking, or using prescription meds, bungee jumping, or doing anything else that might harm a fetus--including using drugs?

Besides, unlike a person killed in a wreck caused by a drunk driver, a fetus is not a person under the law, but the woman IS a person legally, not merely a vessel for carrying a fetus.

[Lancero]

84. A drunk driver might have no idea they are going to wreck...

So how could they be considered liable for wrecking?

Ignorance of circumstance isn't a excuse.

As for prescription medications, any doctor worth their degree would test before prescribing medication that can have negative effects when taken by pregnant women. It's a simple test, a cheap test, and since some women don't know that they are pregnant then such a test is a justified precaution. And as for bungee jumping, if they were smart enough they would get a checkup beforehand to be sure their body could handle such at activity.

At the very least she used cocaine, which is illegal. Even when forgetting about the fetus, her usage of cocaine is still a illegal act.

Where drugs, such as cocaine, are concerned, their is no might. They have proven negative effects.

[Sheldon Cooper]

108. "Ignorance of circumstance isn't a excuse. "

LOL! So, every woman of childbearing age should never engage in any activity, legal or otherwise, because she MIGHT be pregnant??? You do know that childbearing age can last as long as 40 years?

Ya got that, ladies? From onset of menses until post-menopause, no activity that could possibly harm to a fetus is permitted.

Laughable, as are the rest of your posts in this thread. Your attempt at analogy with the drunk driver thing may be the lamest thing I've seen yet, by the way.

[gollygee]

109. That isn't parallel

It drives me crazy when people make comparisons that aren't parallel. A driver not knowing he was in a car would be parallel, but of course that's silly because the drunk driving situation is completely different and can't be compared in the way you're trying to compare it to this.

[Crunchy Frog]

153. Ignorance about how medicine and law are practiced

is no excuse for posting ignorantly about the subject.

You've never gotten a prescription as a woman, have you? Well I have. Lots of times. Many of those prescriptions were for meds that could potentially harm a fetus. Many of them came with labels saying not to take if pregnant, or if you might become pregnant.

I've never been given a pregnancy test before being prescribed medication (except when they were meds for IVF). The only meds that they do that for are extreme teratogens like accutane. At most you might get asked if you could potentially be pregnant, and then tested if you said yes. Are you saying that all of the doctors I've ever seen were not worth their degrees? And what if you have a negative pregnancy test, begin a medication, and then get pregnant? Jail for not using contraception adequately?

As far as prosecution for drug use, first, there was apparently no trace of drugs in the girl's system, so no evidence of drug use. As others have said, the trace byproducts found in the fetus could have come from any number of other sources.

The other thing is that they do not prosecute for drug use based on information discovered in medical settings. If they did, nobody who used illicit drugs would ever go to a doctor, and they sure as hell would never seek medical treatment for addiction.

Maybe you should learn a little more about how the world works before spouting off.

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.

[Crunchy Frog]

151. WTF does that have to do with the issue at hand?

Talk about changing the subject.

[Crunchy Frog]

65. Sounds like the doctor should be prosecuted for murder

since skilled birth attendenants should be able to prevent deaths from cord accidents.

It also sounds like the whole state leadership of Mississippi should be in prison for creating the conditions that result in such high rates of infant mortality and stillbirth.

May I ask you what you are doing on a progressive site?

[Lancero]

67. The question is valid, how?

Lets try to keep this on topic please.

As I've said, and as you've ignored, the child's death was a natural occurrence. Nothing could have prevented it.

[jeff47]

128. Aside from your desire to reduce women to incubators....

It turns out things that are "widely known" aren't necessarily true.

The health effects on children who are exposed to drugs - Be it tobacco, alcohol, or cocaine - are widely known.

Actually, no. They aren't.

Alcohol: turns out light drinking does no harm (~2-3 glasses per week). In fact, the children where the mother drank lightly do better on IQ tests later in life. Now, those families had other benefits - they were above-average in income too, so we can't say drinking while pregnant makes smarter babies. We can say it doesn't cause harm unless the mother is a heavy drinker.

Cocaine: Turns out there's no detectable long-term damage. The infants go through withdrawal after birth, which isn't exactly pleasant for them or their caretakers. And the infants are more likely to be premature. But after they've completed withdrawal, they do the same as other kids in the same socio-economic environment.

A whole lot of what everyone "knows" about pregnancy and infants aren't actually backed up by science. And that lack of data really isn't a barrier.

For example, "Back to Sleep". Turns out a new diagnosis was rolled out at the same time: SUID (Sudden Unexplained Infant Death). In SUID cases, they are fairly sure a caretaker killed the child, but they can not prove it sufficiently to bring charges. About 1/2 of what would have been SIDS are now labeled SUID.

Guess what percentage of SIDS cases are supposedly prevented by "Back to Sleep"? About 1/2. Add SUID cases back in, and you get the same trend line you had from before "Back to Sleep". In other words, the program has actually had no effect.

Yet the marketing is so successful that studies on SIDS routinely insist the parents are lying if they say they always put their SIDS-victim infant on their back when sleeping.

[azurnoir]

136. On the SIDS back to sleep

my oldest and youngest kids are 20 years apart - after my oldest was born I was told to always put her to sleep on her stomach because studies had shown......., by the time my youngest was born studies showed the exact opposite for the same reasons, I really do not put much stock in studies

[blkmusclmachine]

37. Burkas soon if the GOP gets its way.

[obxhead]

40. Fuck pro-birthers

May they find their life filled with people that spurn and hate them, making life difficult.

[nomorenomore08]

157. I think for a lot of them that's already the case. Hence why they're usually such balls of sunshine.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

46. With all due respect to Mississippians, but Mississippi is one truly f'd up place!!! nt

[pragmatic_dem]

88. Nina Simone - Mississippi Goddam

&feature=kp

[Sarah Ibarruri]

89. I like that. And let's not forget yes, Tennessee, Alabama, Georgia, etc.

[Warpy]

55. This is fucking insane

The infant was stillborn because it was premature and the cord around its neck had cut of its oxygen supply long enough to kill it. It happens. Usually the attending doctor or midwife will feel it and deal with it in time. Such was not the case here.

I've seen infants born to mothers who were coked up to the rafters, trying to induce labor (it's one of those urban legends) and the babies were a little tough to watch for the first 24 hours, but they were born alive and stayed that way.

This is bogus: it's the worst of the drug war tied to misogyny and downright cruelty. That asshole needs to be deprived of his job ASAP.

[uponit7771]

57. Such evil from the persecution ..

[ZombieHorde]

83. Damn. Here's a kick. nt

[lumberjack_jeff]

90. That horse already left the barn

Scott Peterson

[joshcryer]

94. The fetus was far past Row v. Wade viability.

The fetus was removed from the body and separately dumped (was in a bag if I recall correctly) while it probably died when Laci died it would've been viable, had, say, Laci been killed in a car accident. My nephew was 7 months when he was born as was one of my brothers.

I don't know if CA had a fetus protection law at the time of his conviction but I think that charge would've stuck even without such a law. Row v. Wade is pretty clear in its judgment.

edit: Oh, and I am pretty sure that some fetal thefts have been convicted for killing mother and unborn child. Reading the wikipedia page looks like only one instance that would qualify: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_abduction

http://murderpedia.org/female.M/m/morales-rodriguez.htm

[davidpdx]

112. Very true

The case of Scott Peterson was much different then the one being described in the OP. Peterson killed both Lacey and the unborn child in cold blood. Where I (and sure probably some others on DU would as well) disagree is the sentence. I think he should rot in prison the rest of his life instead of the death penalty.

[Mariana]

119. Most pro-lifers are misogynists.

That's just a fact.

[redqueen]

122. All pro-lifers are misogynists. Pro-lifers think women should not have the right to bodily integrity

because fetus.

It is abhorrent that anyone would prioritize a parasite over the host, simply because of a potential future of that parasite.

Women who do not want to carry a pregnancy to term have the right to make that decision.

[PeaceNikki]

125. This ^

[catbyte]

141. +1000, redqueen

[PeaceNikki]

127. Anti-choice is a misogynistic position. Always.

[fizzgig]

138. you mean forced birther

it's none of your business. it is misogyny to decide what's best for a woman when it comes it comes to reproduction.

[blueamy66]

168. The solution to "these problems" is....

mind your own business

[fizzgig]

169. you don't want women to have reproductive autonomy

you want to tell them what medical procedure they can and cannot have. those are the attacks on women that need fought. i have nothing but contempt for some who would force me to carry to term and deliver a baby when i don't want to.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

139. LOL. that's because anti-choicers are misogynists. its not a misconception. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

166. taking a healthcare choice away from women is a misogynistic stance REGARDLESS

of your position on war/capital punishment.

[uppityperson]

179. I do not equate a living breathing human with a zygote whereas you so.

I do not believe in capital punishment because there are too many instances in which it is abused, the wrong person is killed for a crime they did not commit. I do not like war because too often it is the innocents who get killed to provide money for the War Machine. Who, beaides the War Machine is "for war"?

I believe women should have the legal right to a legal hygienic abortion as afforded by Roe v Wade because the breathing autonomous woman's rights outweigh that of an embryo.

Since you have called women who have had abortions "murderers", I find it ironic that you now say they are not while calling for consistency.

[nomorenomore08]

158. "Pro-lifer"? Fine. I just hope no women bleed to death in an alleyway thanks to your "advocacy." nt

[nomorenomore08]

163. Because that's the sort of thing that happens when abortion is outlawed. Just saying.

But if you don't advocate overturning Roe etc. then I don't think we have a problem.

Personally opposed to abortion? Fine, you have the right to that belief. But you don't have the right to control anyone else's medical decisions.

[nomorenomore08]

175. Because when abortion is illegal, women who desperately don't want to be pregnant will still

obtain them, and in that case they'll be illegal, unsafe and in many cases, deadly. You can't stop people from having sex, it's human nature - honestly, if you're against abortion, the best thing is to promote birth control. Yet even the most effective methods have a small failure rate, so some number of abortions will still be necessary no matter what. Like it or not, it's the truth.

P.S. So if you apparently believe life begins at fertilization, then do you advocate banning certain contraceptive devices as well?

[treestar]

107. Looks like there is not going to be proof even that the

girl knew smoking crack would do any harm, which is possible - they'd have to prove she intentionally smoked crack in order to induce a stillbirth - ridiculous.

Oh and of course their test case is a black girl. They'd never prosecute a white girl who did the same thing.

[burfman]

129. Didn't believe that this crap goes on....buy yep it's true - are we on the same planet?????

I didn't believe that this crap actually happens, so I went and read up on this on the web and yep it's true.

So I will steer clear of wacky states such as Mississippi and Indiana as much as possible until this bizarre thinking over there goes away.

Amazing how the people who 'care' so much about inflicting this stuff in the name of saving a fetus are usually the same ones who don't give a crap about them once they are born.......

[lostincalifornia]

177. I cannot believe this will stand up in the courts

[NCTraveler]

135. At what point...

At what point do anti-choicers start proposing to jail women who have had babies for carrying an undocumented individual for 9 months. Yeah, I know it's stupid. No less stupid than some of the other stunts they are pulling.

[azurnoir]

137. Traces of a cocaine byproduct as cause of death seems a stretch

even for Mississippi

[kpete]

144. much too familiar

voting should be mandatory,
mho
peace
kp

[weissmam]

147. hey

Drag Ann Romney in front of a Grand Jury she had a Miscarriage

[freshwest]

154. Hell, drag Rick Sanctorum and his wife in front of one for her late term abortion to save her life.

Then he still voted against other women in the same condition to not be able to get one afterward. Because it's Gawd's Will, but he made an exception for his own wife.

If having a child kills you, it was meant to be. Just like getting pregnant from rape or incest, it was Gawd's Will, too.
This is the mentality we are looking at.

I always warn whites who appear racist, they always test this and other things to blacks and browns first to set a legal precedent. Unless you're very wealthy, you're next.

[yuiyoshida]

164. I wonder if it will ever come to a point that

A single woman who reaches a certain age could be arrested for not being married... Gawd, if that happened, I would flee the country!

[VanillaRhapsody]

176. Lest not forget the Seven Mountain Dominionist Movement...

As we have explained before, Seven Mountains dominionism seeks to place Christians in control over the seven forces that shape and control our culture: (1) Business; (2) Government; (3) Media; (4) Arts and Entertainment; (5) Education; (6) Family; and (7) Religion. The reason for this, as Lance Wallnau, the leading advocate for Seven Mountains theology, explained is that Jesus "doesn't come back until He's accomplished the dominion of nations." And the way "dominion of nations" is accomplished is by having Christians gain control of these "seven mountains" in order to install a "virtual theocracy" overseen by "true apostles" who will fight Satan and his Antichrist agenda.

In the past we have caught people like Porter teaming up with Seven Mountains advocate Cindy Jacobs and praying for God to give Christians control over the media and government mountains. We've even found David Barton sharing the stage with Jacobs. In fact, later this month both Barton and Garlow will be joining other Seven Mountain Dominionists/Spiritual Warriors for an event called "Government Transformation Summit For Visionary Leaders" [PDF] in Texas.

- See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/david-barton-advocates-seven-mountains-dominionism#sthash.n9c0BG7e.dpuf

Pretty sure this is who is influencing Sarah Palin and Ted Cruz among others...