A quick question about the law.

[FarLeftFist]

Can you claim that you're acting in self-defense if you pick a fight with someone and then start to lose?

Also, if a FISTFIGHT did occur than wouldn't that rule out the need for lethal force? Even cops get canned when shooting unarmed people.

I don't necessarily even believe a fight took place at all, but if it did could anyone really blame a scared 17yr old for fighting back against a man obviously stalking him? I remember a story a month or 2 back where a 9 yr old girl fought back against her alleged kidnapper and no one is blaming the girl.

If a fight took place it was probably because Trayvon ran, Zimmerman pursued him, possibly catching up to him (against police/911 orders), grabbed him, Trayvon fought back unarmed, Zimmerman shot and killed him. KILLER on the loose.

(Yet, person who flour-bombed Kim Kardashian at press conference arrested.)

[obxhead]

1. No

You may not start a fight, get your ass kicked, then kill the other person claiming self defense.

Self defense is also usually limited to enough force to escape.

[X_Digger]

2. Generally, no.

The only exception is if you tried to disengage from the fight, clearly communicated your intentions and your opponent kept up the confrontation, then yes.

The example would be a fight in a bar parking lot.

Florida has these stipulations:

http://law.onecle.com/florida/crimes/776.041.html
[div class='excerpt']776.041 Use of force by aggressor.

The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

In Martin's case, I would think a case could be made for both (1) and (2). My best guess is that Zimmerman tried to detain or grab Martin, which would be a forcible felony in this case.

[safeinOhio]

4. "great bodily harm" is pretty vague.

A bloody nose?
A good faith withdrawal, does that have to be in writing?
Is one witness, the one that lives, sufficient evidence?
Could a reasonable person sometimes be unreasonable?

I think the many cartoons posted on the subject on DU, pretty much say it all.

[X_Digger]

5. It might be vague to you- we're talking about reasonable people.

[safeinOhio]

7. How about 6 reasonable people?

I trust a jury of my peers over a single paranoid individual.

Just define a "reasonable person". I have a degree in psychology and I don't think there is a definition of a reasonable person as everyone has a different life experience and each incident is different from another one. Some proponents of SYG are afraid of jury decision in a duty to retreat case. They want the decision to be only their own. How do we know that one persons view is more reasonable than that of 6 people.

[X_Digger]

8. The 'reasonableness' will be evaluated by everyone up the chain..

If the police feel that the fear was unreasonable, they'll arrest and seek charges. If the DA / Prosecutor / State's Attorney agrees, they'll go before a grand jury or the like. If a trial judge doesn't dismiss, it goes to a jury to decide.

At each step in that process, prosecution can halt. (Generally- it's rare that the police will buck a DA and refuse to cooperate.)

If you're advocating that every case of self-defense go to a jury- that's a perversion of our legal system that I can't get behind.

[safeinOhio]

10. In the Zimmerman's case.

the new law gave an excuse to not go to a jury. Under the old DTR law the police would have been forced to go to court.
You may, and I agree, that the police failed, however the SYG law allowed them to fail.

[X_Digger]

11. No, they wouldn't have been forced to do anything. *sigh*

Zimmerman's story would have changed- he would have claimed that he tried to retreat, and couldn't.

With this department's history? They'd buy it, and wash their hands of it, just as they have in the past.

There's nothing that *forces* a police department to arrest. If they were inclined to take Zimmerman's defense at face value (or actively assist in covering it up), there's no reason to believe that absent SYG, we'd be in any different place.

[TheKentuckian]

9. What may cause a bloody nose is a matter of degrees from potentially

being a killing blow.

We are not and should not be under any obligation to be anybody's punching bag.

If you assault someone, you SHOULD be on your own legally. If you come out breathing you should count your blessings and learn from a deadly error that you dodged the full brunt of.

I do not even begin to get the mentality that encourages the attacker, demanding the assaulted demonstrate greater concern for a fucking predator in a situation where you are the prey.

You attack people they damn well should be WELL within their rights to make you fried chicken.
Don't want to run that risk? Scared of "over reaction", hoping for "equal force"? Keep your hands and/or weapons to yourself and act like you respect the next person, whether you actually do or not.

An attacker should be taking their chances, at best.

[Life Long Dem]

3. I hear a fight took place.

Zimmerman received a bloody nose. Trayvon takes off. Zimmerman is pissed from the beating and chases Trayvon a few houses away (I believe the witness said 3 houses away) shooting him. Possibly in the back.

[Quixote1818]

6. One witness said the shooting took place well after the fight

If this can be backed up by other witnesses and it's shown the gun was fired when Zimmerman was several feet away from Martin then Zimmerman is in big trouble.