Cheney Followed the UNOS Rules. Stop the Insanity Please.

[K Gardner]

Last edited Mon Mar 26, 2012, 12:07 AM - Edit history (4)

I have been totally flabbergasted at the number of horrible, hateful, reactionary posts here that assert things that simply are not true.

We have good discussions here. DU has been out front on SO many issues and people come here to "check the pulse" of the Democratic Party. Do you REALLY want them seeing threads wishing DEATH upon anyone; wishing the withholding of medical care when we are supposed to be the party wanting Medical Care For ALL? Do you really want them to see the hate bubble over into the kind of insanity that we associate with the Tea Party?

I am not a Cheney fan. I don't like serial killers either. But when either one comes to my ER, or ends up as my patient in an ICU, I am obligated to care for them to the best of my ability. In this one instance, the man followed the rules. Yes, he had a good insurance policy. Most former politicians and rich people do. But he waited his turn. There are a HUGE number of factors that depend on when one gets to the top of the UNOS list. Cheney waited 20 months. During that time, his heart ran on a mechanical pump. He could have died at any time.

He did not leapfrog. He did not buy anything. He did not pull strings. Look at it this way: Maybe he'll live long enough to visit the Hague.

In 2010 he received an implanted device called a left ventricular assist device (LVAD). LVADs were originally intended as a “bridge” to heart transplant while someone waits for an available heart. However, in recent years the technology has improved to the point that people are living for many years with this device, which helps pump blood through the heart. In a previous interview after receiving his LVAD, Cheney had said that he was not sure if he wanted a heart transplant, but he had apparently been on the heart waiting list for 20 months.

LVADs have helped increase the amount of time people can wait for a heart. About 75% of people live for at least five years after a heart transplant, with 56% surviving at least 10 years, according to the National Institutes of Health.

The question is: how does someone in his 70s fare after such major surgery? Quite well, actually, and the latest research suggests that people over 70 do just as well as younger people after a heart transplant.
Cheney will likely spend one to two weeks in the hospital and then his doctors will watch him very closely over the next three months while his body continues to recover from surgery. If all goes well, Cheney should be able to return to his normal level of activity. In fact, with a brand new heart, the hope would be that he’ll be even better than before.

At any given time there are about 3,000 people in the U.S. on the waiting list for a heart transplant. But only 2,000 donor hearts are available each year. Do the math. There are many people in the waiting list that never receive a new heart and they die waiting for one. For those who are lucky enough to get a new heart, waiting times vary from days (for emergency situations) to many months, as in the case of Cheney.

One issue is finding a heart that is a match, meaning the genetic profile of the donor is a close enough match to decrease the likelihood that the heart will be rejected. Assuming the need is similar between two patients, the one who has been on the waiting list longer will typically receive a newly available heart.http://blogs.webmd.com/breaking-news/2012/03/dick-cheney-heart-transplant-whats-ahead.html

Here are the OPTN and UNOS Guidelines, which all hospitals follow: http://www.organtransplants.org/understanding/unos/

Patients on the waiting list are in end-stage organ failure and have been evaluated by a transplant physician at hospitals in the U.S. where organ transplants are performed. Policies that dictate organ allocation are created and revised through a consensus-building process that involves UNOS committees and a board of directors, all composed of transplant physicians, government officials, specialists in immunology and experts in organ donation, as well as donor families, transplant recipients and members of the general public. Any proposed changes to the organ allocation rules are openly debated and published for public comment before being implemented.

Specifics of waiting list rules, which can be seen at OPTN website, vary by organ. General principles, such as a patient's medical urgency, blood, tissue and size match with the donor, time on the waiting list and proximity to the donor, guide the distribution of organs. Under certain circumstance, special allowances are made for children. For example, children under age 11 who need kidneys are automatically assigned additional points. Factors such as a patient's income, celebrity status, and race or ethnic background play no role in determining allocation of organs.

Contrary to popular belief, waiting on the list for a transplant is not like taking a number at the deli counter and waiting for your turn to order. In some respects, even the word "list" is misleading; the list is really a giant pool of patients. There is no ranking or patient order until there is a donor, because each donor's blood type, size and genetic characteristics are different. Therefore, when a donor is entered into the national computer system, the patients that match that donor, and therefore the "list," is different each time.

The other major guiding principal in organ allocation is: local patients first. The country is divided into 11 geographic regions, each served by a federally-designated organ procurement organization (OPO), which is responsible for coordinating all organ donations. With the exception of perfectly matched kidneys and the most urgent liver patients, first priority goes to patients at transplant hospitals located in the region served by the OPO. Next in priority are patients in areas served by nearby OPOs; and finally, only if no patients in these communities can use the organ, it is offered to patients elsewhere in the U.S.

Can we educate ourselves and stop the hate.. please?

Let's not be THOSE people. We're better than this.

P.S. To those who think I don't believe Bush and Cheney should be held accountable for War Crimes, please see a very old Journal I posted here called "Let Them Atone": http://journals.democraticunderground.com/K%20Gardner/57

UPDATE: Just posted here in another thread as copied from a RW Blog: "The "debate," such as it is, can be seen in full force over at Democratic Underground. It is truly amazing how those enlightened, peaceful people would settle for little less than seeing Cheney crucified, drawn, quartered and burned at the stake - after a suitable three or four years of torture, that is."

UPDATE: Excellent ABC News Article on Cheney's age and medical condition and eligibility for transplant:
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/dick-cheney-heart-transplant/story?id=15998479

[mainer]

1. True, that. But I sure wouldn't want MY heart going to that creep

or the hearts of anyone I love.

[obey]

12. I know how you feel

Last edited Sun Mar 25, 2012, 02:41 PM - Edit history (1)

I have Type O-negative blood, a so called "universal donor". As I understand it we only make up 6% of the population.

I'm on a registry with the Red Cross and some hospital systems.

I always check the voter registration card of a potential recipient, or the parents, to make sure that my blood only goes to someone I approve of.

Ok, that last part was a joke, but it sure sounds like many on this board.

[K Gardner]

15. +1 LOL (nt)

[FarLeftFist]

83. It's not a question of him GETTING a new heart it's a question of who ISN'T getting one b/c of him.

[Muskypundit]

165. He was on a waiting list like everyone else.

Or are you advocating we discriminate against elderly for medical care? Cause that sounds like a right wing fear.

[RZM]

2. This is one of DU's strengths trumping one of its weaknesses

One of the weaknesses (of most message boards, really) is that everybody has an opinion on every matter, but often they are far from experts on the subject, so end up making claims that aren't grounded in reality.

But it is a fairly large community, so on any number of topics, there are bound to be people who have much professional or personal experience with the matter at hand.

Thanks for providing the much-needed context here.

[Jim Lane]

116. Very good point! I join in your gratitude for the expertise of the OP. (n/t)

[tech_smythe]

172. It's difficult to be rational with this monster

I mean, I know he'll never pay in this world, and his passing on and being judged in the next, some days, is all that keeps me going... and im not even religious anymore!

Do I wish death upon him? do I even need to answer that?
he's a monster.
he's a murder, and an evil piece of trash.

IF all the information is true, however, this time he didn't game the system.
It may be the only time in his life he played fair... and even that I find suspicious.

Perhaps the new heart will show him to the light.
I doubt it.

he's an evil bastard whose crimes against humanity would make the devil and Hitler blush.
IMHO he makes Palpitine looks kind and giving.

But time will tell.
Am I sorry he got a new heart? yes.
Will I waste any more time bothering about it?

[RZM]

173. Uhhh . . .

Cheney wouldn't make Hitler blush. It's an insult to the tens of millions of victims of the Nazis to say that,.

[tech_smythe]

206. Look at the cheney's career...

the policies he's either had a visible or guiding hand in...
he's a monster that makes the atrocities committed in the war pale.
A (bad) argument could be made hitler did it because no one would take them (true, sadly, the US turned away boat loads of jews fleeing germany).

Cheney did what he did out of evil and greed, pure and simple. and it's affected not just millions (1.5 in Iraq alone?) but generations of people to be born.

so yes, I can justify my remarks.

To go a step further, look what his policies have done TO Israel. If cheney would have pushed peace as soon as he was selected into office (does anyone seriously think shrub was ever in charge?) he could have finished clinton's work.... instead his administrations made the problems in the middle east WORSE!

That's not even including his ties to OBL.

do you really want to continue this ?

[RZM]

208. I don't want to continue, because I don't feel like wasting the energy

Defending Dick Cheney against accusations of being anywhere in the same league as Hitler. Few 20th century historical figures have been as been. There have been lot of bad people, but few on the scale of Hitler.

[tech_smythe]

209. I'll concede the point

perhaps I was overly hyperbolic.

[Old and In the Way]

3. I don't think war criminals/war-profiteers deserve new hearts.

It may be technically within the "rules", but I still think this POS doesn't deserve to live a minute more than his natural life would have given him. I'll bet if the 100's of thousands of Iraqis who were killed because of Cheney's lying about a casus belli would agree with me.

[stonecutter357]

54. K&R...

I don't think war criminals/war-profiteers deserve new hearts.

[ruggerson]

4. recommended n/t

[Rex]

5. You of course are free to believe whatever you want to.

nt.

[sabrina 1]

6. I have no problem with criminals being treated medically as humanely as anyone else. In fact I

believe they should be. And advocated for that for those in our detention centers while Cheney was in charge of them. I also do not believe in the death penalty, even for war criminals.

You are correct, there is no need for the hate. There is however, a need for justice and accountability for the grave wrongs done, led by Cheney, to the millions of people who suffered under his policies.

Good post. And yes, we should separate humane policies, such as treating sick people, from the need for justice, without which this country will never recover in terms of status and moral authority in the eyes of the world.

I hope his operation is a success and I hope he lives long enough until the US comes to terms with what was done in its name and deals with according to the law.

[eShirl]

8. +1

[K Gardner]

14. I do have a post in my Way Back Journal here about the need for

Bush and Cheney needing to atone.. with a picture of The Hague. I do believe that. I do agree. But it is a separate issue, as you so eloquently stated Thank you.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/K%20Gardner/57

[rhett o rick]

7. You made me think. Do I hate or not.

I put Cheney in the same category as Hitler, Pinochet, Pol Pot, etc. I know it isnt healthy to hate but I cant say honestly that I dont hate.

I am 95% pro-life and since I believe his killing days are over, I dont wish him dead. Also, I would love for him to be alive when he is tried for killing hundreds of thousands of Iraq children and others. That is a selfish reason with tinges of revenge, which I know is bad.

I dont believe in hate and I am honestly trying, but I am not perfect.

[K Gardner]

36. I, too, would like to see him at the Hague. Agreed. nt

[obxhead]

9. If Cheney were in prison where he belongs he wouldn't have been on that list.

Just sayin'.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. Actually, you are wrong

[PoliticAverse]

21. Prisoners may be able to receive heart transplants...

See: http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-204_162-326305.html

[K Gardner]

25. Correct. n/t

[obxhead]

29. I stand corrected.

[randome]

34. We don't see those words often enough on DU.

[Ikonoklast]

155. But how many have?

They *may* be eligible for decent medical care at the expense of the state, but many times that just doesnt seem to happen.

[LiberalLoner]

10. K&R - great post!!

[rustydog]

11. Excellent post! K&R

[greytdemocrat]

13. Nicely put. n/t

[larkrake]

16. I am not a hater nor do I believe in capital punishment

but a roach carries disease that spreads. This roach was responsible for a million deaths abroad and kicked thousands of GOOD americans out of their homes with his power scheming, and was involved with every man-made disaster from the false war to the oil spill in the last 40 years, yes even ignoring 9-11 warnings.. He is a roach and needed to be stomped. You do not know he waited his turn, and I do not believe he did. I am certain he did not- it is his proven character.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. And exactly how do you explain this

Since his wait for a transplant WAS average?

[larkrake]

150. 71 years old is NOT average. he has never followed the law and never would

[nadinbrzezinski]

152. Sorry buster but older people are now getting transplants

10 years ago you'd have a point. Might benefit from going over to CDC and reading on it.

[K Gardner]

27. Then you need to provide proof that while waiting 20 months for a

new heart, he somehow manipulated the UNOS system. You simply can't make baseless allegations like that without proof.

[tooeyeten]

17. he's still lucky

with all the misery he caused in this country, he has a family that loves and supports him. And let's not forget he had medical care that most people still don't have access to.

[K Gardner]

30. I totally agree. And maybe he SHOULD be the poster boy for Universal

Health Care. I see people die every.single. day. Because they can't afford to even get ON the list. Most don't bother to come to the hospital until its too late.

[tooeyeten]

125. absolutely agree! n/t

[hedgehog]

19. Thank you for a clarifying post.

It may well have been a case that he was the only possible match for that particular heart since there is a time factor involved.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. And proximity

This is where the confusion comes about state lists. The country is broken into regions, due to time limits for the organ to be viable.

[K Gardner]

28. +1 - this is something very few understand about the UNOS lists. nt

[COLGATE4]

63. Which means that a person with means, particularly

the ability to travel great distances rapidly (i.e. private jet) can be on lists at multiple sites all over the country and if one comes up s/he can get there within the specified time. A luxury which most others waiting for transplants do not enjoy.

[Bluenorthwest]

79. There is only one list. 'Local lists' and such are just part of the larger list.

So it does not work that way.

[nadinbrzezinski]

91. There is one national list

Also implant teams have privilidges at a certain hospital, and I not transfer, nor will teams take a patient out of the blue.

Teams have been working with the patient for months, up to years. This is not a transmission you are changing.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. And like you I am flabbergasted by the conspiracy theories.

[gulliver]

24. True, but the venting will die down here really fast.

You won't see anything about it next week.

Bush and Cheney damaged the country badly, but their best bet to serve it now is to live long lives. It helps us all remember what Republican glory days look like.

[TheKentuckian]

26. I think he is an enemy of humanity, maybe an actual human heart will improve

the wicked old Sith Lord.

[greytdemocrat]

33. Hey!!

Don't give Sith Lords a bad name!!! LOL!!

[cbayer]

31. Excellent post and I agree.

[EFerrari]

32. Model the civility you want to read, thanks. n/t

[valerief]

35. Bull. After the lies Cheney laid on Americans, he deserves NOTHING from America. He does not

deserve any fairness whatsoever. He deserves to expire like the Iraqis and Americans he caused to expire. He doesn't deserve to live. Just because we live in a corrupt state that won't prosecute him doesn't make me wrong.

[K Gardner]

38. Then you advocate Death Panels. And who will be the Decider on who lives

and who dies?

[nadinbrzezinski]

39. I see you are all for death pannels then.

[valerief]

47. He should be in prison and have to wait in the prison queue. I'd personally rather see him dead.

He's a blight to humanity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. Then you are for death PANNELS

I guess the right was not projecting.

[valerief]

50. What is a pannel? nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. Where you get to decide who is worthy of getting

Medical care and who s not.

I am no fan of Chenney, but the system followed the dang rules. This is how it works.

Yes, I want him on the docket, but reality is a ______, and it ain't gonna happen.

The right kept claiming liberals wanted death panels I guess it was not projection after all.

I guess I can distinguish medical care from the individual.

[valerief]

56. I'm not going to be boxed into answering a question with terms framed by the RW.

Cheney is a villain of the first magnitude and our corrupt government has yet to prosecute him.

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Separate from medical care

And he will not be prosecuted.

[lumberjack_jeff]

37. Guess I'm a hater. I'm okay with that. n/t

[K Gardner]

40. That language was incendiary on my part, you're right. I removed it

from the title. Thanks

[oldhippie]

41. Seems clear to me - We love death panels ...

So far, the vast majority of folks here seem to be clearly in favor of a death panel - as long as we get to be on it and determine who is worthy, and get to pick a more PC name for it. There are plenty of posts that say Cheney doesn't deserve a new heart because ________ . We will happily describe the process and priority mechanism we like best, and usually Cheney will be at the end of the line because _____ . Usually due to issues of ideology or politics. Or age - who is it now pushing grandpa over the cliff?

Some will even start out by saying that we as progressives should NEVER say life saving health care should be withheld from anybody for any reason, and then go on in the next sentence rationalizing why we should make an exception for Cheney.

Just listen to us. It's just about exactly what the right wingers were saying would happen once health care becomes a "public good."

At least there are a few posts like this OP that makes me feel a little better.

[K Gardner]

44. +1. Perfectly stated. We end up validating their irrational fears. n/t

[a2liberal]

72. +1 (n/t)

[DippyDem]

42. Ok calm down everybody please!

The heart transplant just may really be transforming Dick Cheney. He is a new man after his heart transplant. He's been asking his horrified family for an ACLU membership forms. So relax now.

[cali]

43. THANK YOU.

[James48]

45. War criminals deserve prison. Period.

"I am not a Cheney fan. I don't like serial killers either."

To me they are one in the same.

I'm sorry, but I think Mr. Cheney deserves to be in prison right now for his war crimes, not transplants to sustain his wretched existence.

Tell me- do federal prisoners on death row get heart transplants?

Do they?

I thought not.

[K Gardner]

49. You can hold all the opinions you want about any person in the world -

but the fact is that he is NOT on death row.

And we don't have Death Panels.

So you really haven't made a logical or factual point.

You've offered an opinion, which you are certainly entitled to.

And I, too, think he should stand trial. http://journals.democraticunderground.com/K%20Gardner/57

[cstanleytech]

67. Well thank goodness then that the OP didnt say they believed Cheney shouldnt be in prison then.

Rather the post was discussing the people who were sounding alot like the nutjob birthers with their hateful bigoted rhetoric by wishing death to Cheney.

[gordianot]

46. Cheney should be incacerated as war criminal or for commiting treason but has never come to pass.

However medical services are determined for prisoners should be applied to him. Too bad he has not had his day in court and gets government health care with deserving government employees something his kind actively seek to deny American citizens. Every day he draws a breath is another day he invokes the disdain of the living. My only hope for Mr. Cheney if among the living or deceased is that he someday faces justice.

[Mz Pip]

65. "Should" is much different

from "is." As much as many of us here would like to see Cheney charged and convicted, neither has happened. He has not been asrrested, tried and convicted in a court of law. We can try and convict him all we want on this message board but in the real world he is a citizen walking around free just like all the rest of us.

That is the reality of this situation. Until that happens he will continue to receive all the benefits he's entitled to as a free citizen dismal as that may be to those who wish to see him pay for the horror that he created.

[AndyTiedye]

51. I Will Admit to Some Skepticism About How a "Donor" Was Obtained

I would like to think this is all above-board, but this is Dick Cheney we're talking about.
When it's someone with that kind of power unconstrained by any sort of morality whatsoever,
we cannot assume that they would be asking nicely after 20 months.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. The system is blind.

That is an average wait.

[backscatter712]

149. Imported from China? n/t

[patrice]

58. The oppressor within turns people into what they hate. nt

[JohnnyLib2]

60. Many thanks.

[JDPriestly]

61. Thanks, K Gardner.

I understand that people do not like Cheney, but the death-wishes do not represent my opinion or my idea about how Democrats should express themselves. Let's grow up please.

[K Gardner]

62. YW, JD. I agree I don't want to see Dems fall to the level of those

on the other side. We can't afford to be them.

[Doctor_J]

144. yes, we should continue to wish well on those trying to destroy us

it's worked so well for 20 years. When do you suggest we fight back, instead of blowing kisses and shaking our heads and hoping they'll start being nice on their own?

Sorry, K. You're one of the reasons we continue to get trounced.

[nadinbrzezinski]

156. Are you an actual md?

Let me know so I can avoid your practice. Medical care should not be politized. Or you think we should go there instead of abiding by medico-legal standards.

[Botany]

64. Sorry Doc

I guess I am not better than the haters.

A friend's son in his early 30s is dying of glioblastoma type of cancer
thanx to being sent to Iraq and being exposed to KBR burn pits. He is
just one of many many cancer cases of people exposed to the KBR burn
pits. Dick Cheney lied to get us into Iraq so he could make money.
If we are lucky maybe the grafts for his new heart will fail.

The son of a bitch should have never been on any waiting list at all
and if you don't think strings were pulled to get him a new heart your
are mistaken. My guess is that he bought one from China.

[K Gardner]

68. Bought one from China? Are those available for immediate transport? Wow. And if he were going to

pull strings, he would have done it probably before he had to be placed on an LVAD.

20 months.

I'm sorry about your friend's son. I think Cheney needs to be tried at the Hague.

But your guesses are based on hatred and is not how the Organ Transplant system works in this country.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. Flight time woud not remain viable.

They do have a shelf life you know.

[Logical]

66. Gullible much. If you think he did not pull any striongs you must not have paid attention to the...

last 9 years!

[K Gardner]

70. So, per your "theory", he allowed himself to be placed on a mechanical

heart, knowing he couldn't survive on it, and waited 20 months to pull a string, when he had probably only four months left to live.

Interesting. That's cutting it a bit close, even for a master manipulator like Cheney.

[Logical]

75. How do you know he had four months to live? Based on what?

[K Gardner]

77. The longest anyone has ever survived with an LVAD is two years. He'd

been on the list for 20 months.

[Logical]

80. So others have went 24 months and not got a transplant?? Doesn;t that prove my point.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Hmm no. There are less organs than recipients

After certain time all patients are upgraded in the priority list... That does not mean every patient will have a match.

You could do well to educate yourself on how the system actually works. It's easier to start a war, sadly.

[Logical]

89. My point is the "match" part is how he got an advantage. You are gullible.

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. If gullible means understanding

How the system actually works, I s'posed.

You are willfully ignorant. I prefer your version of gullible than willful ignorance quite frankly.

Here is even one more shocking for you. I have signed my card. I don't care who the recipient happens to be. Politics does not enter into that equation

Enjoy your ignorance.

[Logical]

97. I have enjoyed yours the last few weeks! Thanks!

[nadinbrzezinski]

98. I am sure you have

On this you are so off base it's not even funny. Perhaps you even agree with a poster bellow the heart came from China. I got a belly laughter out of that one quite frankly.

Enjoy the conspiracy theories. They are all but logical.

[Logical]

100. I am the least conspiracy person here. But thinking a former VP gets better chances, even if just...

a little better is not crazy. Thinking there was NO favorable treatment is less practical.

[nadinbrzezinski]

103. Since the team got

Patient number not ID, and tissue types to match, you are way off.

The matching is blind.

[Logical]

104. LOL...ok. I guess I am wrong.

[nadinbrzezinski]

106. Yes, you are wrong

It s done this way precisely to avoid the issues that did not happen, since it is blind.

You could do some research or continue to live that fantasy.

[Logical]

107. Justice is blind also? And Pharma studies? And FDA decisions? Wow, wish I lived in your world!

[onenote]

108. Your world is easier for you since it allows you to believe what you want

without having to deal with any facts.

You are entitled to your opinion. But why you think anyone would value it when you are so determined to make it an uninformed opinion is anyone's guess.

[Logical]

109. Answer my question. Double blind Pharma drug studies? You 100% trust them also?

[nadinbrzezinski]

110. I posted in the photography forum a photo

Of the tools of the trade for hirerberas. I suggest you move to an area of the world where traditional medicine (most drugs did indeed originate in plants though) is practiced as the main way.

If I recall life expectancies are in the forties in these places.

Also please kindly refuse vaccination, milk pasteurazation and other modern means. It is obviously all a dang conspiracy.

[Logical]

111. No, those are not. So quit trying to change the topic. No one else in the country...

is questioning this transplant. Oh, wait. Sure they are. Age and the past health issues of Cheney are big factors in questions about it.
A 75 year old man got one last year, but was a marathon runner. In much better health than Cheney.
I hope someone looks into this in detail.

[nadinbrzezinski]

112. According to NIH tey are far more regular

This is not out of norm, as much as you want to make it so.

Cue the x- fies theme.

[Logical]

114. Not at all. I love your fantasy world. Must be easy to live in. Calm, no thinking required! Nice!

[K Gardner]

113. http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/dick-cheney-heart-transplant/story?id=15998479

Don't let the facts stop you, though.

Better yet, call Innova Fairfax Hospital in Falls Church and demand to speak to the Transplant Coordinator. Perhaps he/she can answer to your satisfaction, though I doubt it.

[Logical]

115. I have not doubt people are looking at this close. I hope they are not as naive as you.

[nadinbrzezinski]

117. May you never need to avail yourself of the same advanced

medical techniques, perhaps logic will finally enter your world, or just well...facts.

At one time there were more limits. These days some transplants are almost routine.

[Logical]

119. Routine if you can get one. That is what we are debating. Not the ease of doing it. get it??

[nadinbrzezinski]

120. And you have the same chance

Under same conditions, as somebody else.

Where we have problems is not with the transplant system, and ironically Dick is a poster child for the solution to this, is when sates, see AZ or insurance companies refuse to cover it.

But hey, in your fantasy the organ matching team knew that patient (insert code here) was Dick Chenney.

You are accusing the system in engaging in organ harvesting and sales, which is Ilegal. This is why the system in the US is blind. It is also blind in Mexico and Canada, in case you wonder. Doesn't mater, you will believe what you wish to believe and actually tell people familiar with the system, which you are not, that they are wrong. This is purely a logic fail.

By the way Dick, I know ironic, is a poster child for single payor government healthcare. Oh the irony, make it stop.

You are also willfully ignoring the other part of the equation, we never have enough organs, that might be solved in the next 20 years or so, they are working on creating them in the lab...oh wait you hate the FDA too...never mind. So you want to be part f the solution, sign your card. That's the logical thing to do.

[Logical]

122. If you think the FDA has no flaws then work in big pharma a couple of decades. Eye opener. I wish...

I lived in your imaginary world.

[nadinbrzezinski]

123. They have problems

But you are making it sound like we should dissolve them outright...

Logic libertarian bs fail.

[Logical]

124. WTF is wrong with you? Please post the quote where I said anything close to that? I will wait.

[nadinbrzezinski]

126. You have been arguing with zero evidence

That Chenney got preferential treatment to get the organ. You have also argued that FDA is terrible.

Anyhow, we are done. We live in different worlds. I like to deal in facts.

You don't.

[Logical]

127. OK, then you lied about my FDA stand. Glad you admit it. Done with you. Dream away!

[nadinbrzezinski]

128. I admit nothing

You said the FDA could not be trusted and double blind studies cannot...

Have a good life in that fantasy, paranoid fantasy, you live in.

[Logical]

129. No, I asked if you trusted every double blind study and every FDA decision. So you did lie. You...

are now looking silly. I'll stop this to let you save face.

[nadinbrzezinski]

131. Hilarious

The one digging says I am digging. Funny stuff.

[Logical]

132. I'll stop kicking your ass on this thread. You are taking a beating in plenty of others. Bye Bye!!

[nadinbrzezinski]

133. You are?

Thanks for the belly laugh

[K Gardner]

138. Nadin..just ignore him. You know what you're talking about, he

doesn't. Its not worth it to try to put Logic in Illogical

Thanks for your help on this thread.

[AtheistCrusader]

200. You can be certain he had an advantage.

But it was on the front end, meaning, no wrangling with his insurer, if he even has one, instead of simply paying out of pocket for the medical costs.

Not sure if he refused the government medical plan/retirement. Either way, he had very little in the way of cost/insurance roadblocks.

Sad that your opponent in this thread didn't even seem to come up with that. Completely agree on all points you raised. 20 months on an LVAD? Cheney may be a cold calculating son of a bitch, but I doubt he's THAT calculating...

[11 Bravo]

146. Funniest post ever! Yeah, an ass got kicked on this thread, but it wasn't nadin's.

If you would like to locate the ass that was kicked as the result of a series of the most ignorant, ill-informed, or just willfuly stupid statements in recent DU history; I can help you:
Extend both of your farms with your fingers slightly cupped. Reach around behind yourself with your arms slightly below your waist. Bring your arms toward your body until your hands encounter a flabby mass of flesh. Squeeze.

Congratulations! You have now successfully located the ass which has been kicked on this thread. Well done!

[K Gardner]

93. You know, you really should consider changing your DU Moniker.

[Logical]

95. Wow, that is clever!

[Aerows]

99. You really should determine

whether or not people are as stupid as you seem to think they are.

No one with sense likes Darth Cheney, and we all know him to be an evil person that fomented war because HE COULD.

You want to support Darth Cheney, and his rise to Sainthood in the Republican party? Fine. Do it elsewhere because where there are sane people, he's a pariah.

Peddle your ideas at Freeperville. There are free thinkers here at DU and you won't pollute our minds just because you have been sold a pack of lies.

[K Gardner]

101. I'm writing in support of the Organ Transplant Association, UNOS.. not

in support of Dick Cheney. As a medical professional, one doesn't get to choose who they operate on.

Very sorry this idea so disturbs you. Please cite one place where I defended Dick Cheney. And evidently you also neglected to read my post about he and Bush being tried at the Hague.

Much easier to ignore facts and call me a Freeper because you refuse to separate your hate from objective medical criteria.

[nadinbrzezinski]

102. Sorry but here we are just talking of a transplant system

It works the way it does. In your world we should reject people from those lists based on politics? I guess i am a horrible person given some of the characters I treated as patients.

Perhaps you should do well to read the hypocratic oath.

Yes, if Dick Cheney was in front of me and his heart stopped I would do CPR.

The same goes for George Bush.

Or an innocent as can be newborn.

It seems some of you are willing to go exactly where you accuse Right Wingers for the sake of politics.

Oh and yes, some of my patients were responsibe, directly, for hundreds of deaths, a couple for rape...did I mention the one who tortured his victims before killing them? They still got the medical care they needed in a humane, kind way.

That was my duty, and I carried it through. Guess what? I get to sleep at night.

Get over it, he was on a list, a match was found and time will tell if there is a rejection or not. It has zero to do with the donor, or patient. I also have zero expectations to have a say, or rather my family, as to who gets organs if that is my fate. Nor should the system become political to please you.

[K Gardner]

105. Bravo. n/t

[Webster Green]

166. Damn! He was likely a few months away from death?

Mutherfucker! Now I'm really pissed.

Edit to add that I accept what you are saying in your OP. It it was fair, so be it. I'm still really bummed though.

[Contrary1]

174. "The longest anyone has ever survived with an LVAD is two years"

From your OP:

"...LVADs were originally intended as a “bridge” to heart transplant while someone waits for an available heart. However, in recent years the technology has improved to the point that people are living for many years with this device"

So which is it?

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. And how exactly did he pull strings

When his wait was average?

Conspiracy theories notwithstanding it s actually easier to sart an Ilegal war.

[a2liberal]

69. K&R (n/t)

[Gregorian]

74. He is a human, despite all appearances. Where's the compassion.

Thanks.

[madrchsod]

76. after reading this discussion i can see why it`s not left up to the moralist`s to decide..

who is given the chance to live or die.

[K Gardner]

78. +1

[onenote]

81. Thank you. Unfortunately, willful ignorance has become too common on DU

Its reaffirming whenever someone takes the time to counter the misinformation spread by those who have no actual knowledge of the subject they are discussing.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but its always useful to have the information necessary to distinguish informed opinion from uninformed opinion.

[Aerows]

82. Cheney is an asshole

He "got" a heart. My uncle had a heart transplant and he was one of the finest men I knew. He was kind, used his money from working at the FBI to support my mother and my grandmother to keep their house.

He was a good man full of life, and gladness.

Dick Cheney is in the race for the worst person that ever existed in the universe. That's Cheney's legacy. He stirred up a war that wasn't necessary, plowed down attempts to stop that war, and cheered the idea that every single life taken was a "victory".

Why in the hell should I view it as a "victory" that this bloated, self-righteous turd still breathes the air he and his kin would like to pollute?

No victory in my humble opinion.

[K Gardner]

84. No one said it was a victory. The post is simply refuting the bizarre

theories that he manipulated UNOS.

[Aerows]

87. Cheney is likely the worst human being to walk the face of the earth

since people recorded awful humans.

I wasn't refuting, defending or stating a position carried by UNOS (whatever that is). I was just stating that he's an asshole.

I neither defend nor intend to offend "ONUS". I don't know anything about that organization. I do know that Dick Cheney is an asshole that tarnished the honor of the United States of America.

[coalition_unwilling]

141. Not to dredge up an even more ancient past, but Cheney availed himself

of multiple draft deferments to avoid serving in the military during the Vietnam War. One can argue that several young American men died or were wounded and their families ravaged, all because Cheney had 'other priorities' (his words).

That to me damns Cheney far more than Operation Shocking and Awful, as damning as the latter is. The former Vietnam draft evasion delineates Cheney's character for all time.

That said, I reluctantly agree with the OP, Nadin, et. al, that the question of medical care for scoundrels needs to be an entirely separate issue from their status as scoundrels..

[grantcart]

86. Well

I have trouble accepting this part


The question is: how does someone in his 70s fare after such major surgery? Quite well, actually, and the latest research suggests that people over 70 do just as well as younger people after a heart transplant.


It seems counter intuitive but unless proven otherwise I will take your word for it.

There are two issues, the age and the charachter of the recpient.

I would think that the younger the recepient the preferable it would be.

As to the charachter I would prefer someone who was not involved mass killing get it than someon who was.

Nevertheless your argument is very solid and I have to agree with your conclusion, if in fact 70 year olds fare as well as younger people after a heart transplant.

Now I hope he gets some incredibly painful and debilitating disease and that he lives to be 120.


Rec'd.

[K Gardner]

88. Have to agree with your last line :-)

[grantcart]

94. Yes Kharma can be a bitch, another technical question

If the President mounts a 50 state landslide and Cheney's brain explodes through all of his cavities, will this heart be in good condition for a retransplant?

We should have a team ready on election day.

[BlueMTexpat]

90. I admit that I am not knowledgeable about the transplant

guidelines generally.

I also admit that I hate Dick Cheney with a passion that I reserve for very few.

But my question is - and I would ask this about any patient of his age no matter what my personal feelings about that person may be - why was HE even considered a transplant candidate now when he has been in such rotten condition since he was in his late 30s (or so I understand) and when candidates over 70 years of age do not seem generally to be eligible?

See, e.g., http://www.umm.edu/heart/elig_crit.htm (Maryland) and http://www.texasheartinstitute.org/HIC/HeartDoctor/answer_191.cfm

I am also - per my driver's license - an organ donor. I also have a Living Will in which I have directed that any organ of mine that can be "recycled" so to speak, should be.

Cheney may not have "jumped the queue" but he surely was given individual - if not special - consideration in being considered for this operation by the mere fact of his age.

As someone who is fast approaching Cheney's age right now, if my own health were such that I required a heart transplant, I would want any viable heart supposedly meant for me to go to someone younger whose family actually needs him/her. I have lived my life - and enjoyed it for the most part - but we simply are not meant to live forever. Most importantly, I have tried never to cause harm to anyone. I am not afraid to move on to the next phase, whatever it is. If it is.

I can understand why Cheney might be afraid to move on to that next phase. I leave him to Heaven. But I would absolutely love it if Earth got its licks in first.

[K Gardner]

96. You're quoting from two hospitals websites and criteria.

ISHLT engages in the regular development of guidelines regarding end-stage heart disease, end-stage lung disease, heart transplantation, and lung transplantation. The doctors and boards in each hospital or health care system decide on their own guidelines. So a hospital in Texas may have a different set of guidelines than one in Maryland. And they in turn may have different criteria than one in Tennessee.

[BlueMTexpat]

203. Fine. I realize that there are different guidelines. And that's fine.

If it is true that a) any other 71-year-old heart transplant candidate in the hospital where Cheney received his heart transplant and who had the same/similar health history as Cheney would have been treated in the same way or b) the hospital where Cheney had this procedure did not violate its own guidelines, then I am fine with it.

Even though the man is one of the most loathsome human beings on earth.

Otherwise not so much.

[saras]

118. Following petty rules to a bizarre extreme, with no comprehension of a bigger picture, IS insanity.

What some persnickety detail of a heart transplant rule says is just not very important when you're talking about a mass murdering war criminal on the loose. Many societies thought bounty hunters sufficient justice. The United States currently has even lower standards if some official chooses to call you a "terrorist". By all rights, those standards (i.e. unmanned drones) are sufficient for Cheney and Rumsfeld. If you don't like the standard, then change it on a national level. But don't argue for his exemption because he was wealthy enough to follow some bureaucratic regulation somewhere.

By almost all of the world's rules, the guy deserves a death sentence or worse. I'm not that twisted a "saint" that I would expend any energy trying to help him while his victims are still suffering - that seems like an extremely stupid misuse of human resources.

[nadinbrzezinski]

121. Ethics fail

When he s convicted call me. Until then doctors and other medical professionals have obligations. You should stay out of the medical field.

[cherokeeprogressive]

137. "By almost of the world's rules," one must be tried and convicted before sentence is passed.

I have to go with nadin's thoughts here.

[on point]

130. Besides Cheney might be nicer person now that he has heart! ;-)

[eShirl]

135. He, he himself, might carve the roast beast.

OK maybe not.

[secondvariety]

134. Waste of a good heart

if you ask me. But I'm the spiteful sort.

[mckara]

136. Yes! Love Your Captors, Don't Hate Them!

Obvious case of Stockholm Syndrome

[nadinbrzezinski]

139. Prove to me the matching team

Knew that patient code so and so was Dick Chenney.

If you manage, that be a felony.

Or would you rather politicize medical care like the right wants to.

[K Gardner]

140. Another obvious case of someone not reading the post.

Stockholm Syndrome?

Because I explained how the national organ registry works? Nice logic.

[mckara]

205. Look at Your Opening Statement...

"I have been totally flabbergasted at the number of horrible, hateful, reactionary posts here that assert things that simply are not true."

You were criticizing people for their resentment of a person who executed policies that murdered tens of thousands of innocent people and who opposed public health care, now, receiving a heart transplant at government expense. The resentment people felt about an answering of his call for mercy, after his ruthless policies destroyed so many innocent lives, seems to be a more human response than your criticism of people expressing their feelings. So what if he received the heart from a donor system that chooses candidates through objective methods? The system could have been explained without attacking people complaining about a man who deserves a special level of Hell exclusively for his torment.

[joeybee12]

142. So this war criminal followed the rules...for once...

How fucking noble of him.

[Doctor_J]

143. Heh. Using ABC (the All Bush Channel) for reference

Why do we have to cheer when a malignant sociopath like Cheney uses taxpayer-funded health care to prolong a life that should have ended years ago at the end of a rope at the Hague? Were you scolding everyone for celebrating Hitler's death? This tumor was one of the main catalysts in turning the US from the world's beacon of hope into a 3rd-world sewer. He and all of his spawn should burn in hell, without electric fans.

[K Gardner]

162. Another person who either didn't read the post or can't comprehend the content.

I guess you missed the part, which was clearly linked, called "Let Them Atone".

Unfortunately, we don't have death panels here, and the post was about UNOS and transplant procedures. If we do churn up the death panels, however, I'm sure you could apply for a position. I'll leave the judging to others, as its not my place. Perhaps it is yours.

Have a wonderful night.

[JEB]

145. He may not have manipulated UNOS,

but he certainly manipulated the meaning of common decency. How much human anguish can one person inflict before being disqualified for super duper medical miracles that are beyond the wildest hopes of most people on earth. Cheney deserves no care as he has shown no care towards millions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

153. Sorry but as a former medical provider

You are asking docs to violate a series of medical and legal standards, so you feel better.

I will say it again, Chenney's heart stopped beating in front of me, duty says CPR, even if it's Dick Chenney.

Check your humanity in the mirror. But ethical medical providers do not question this. And trust me, some of my patients were truly ethically challenged.

[JEB]

157. If only

the Docs who advised torturers were so principled. So yes, it is good that Medicine should be practiced with absolute impartiality. Unfortunately we all know that is anything but the case. I can barely afford a check up, let alone some impossibly expensive transplant. Many people on earth live their entire life without access to modern medicine.

[nadinbrzezinski]

158. And that is where the irony comes with Dick

He IS the poster child that government single payer healthcare works.

That is how you use this.

But sorry if I will not join you in that, and instead will work for you to have that healthcare.

We need singe payor, but hey whatever.

[K Gardner]

164. I do understand what you are saying and if I did not have to check my

personal feelings "at the door" everytime I went to work, I'd be saying the same thing.

We can't decide who to treat based on whether we personally feel they "Deserve" treatment.

It would be a scary world, if that were the case. Its scary enough now, with 40 million people uninsured or underinsured.

[progressoid]

147. Party pooper!

[JEB]

148. I hope he got

the depleted uranium enema he deserves along with the heart he certainly does not deserve.

[K Gardner]

159. LOL.. well, I'm with you on that one ! I don't think there is a statute of limitations on war crimes

so maybe he'll live long enough to see the inside of The Hague.

[nadinbrzezinski]

161. None

Charges, if they re brought, will not be by the US.

[DeSwiss]

151. K&R

"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." - Nietzsche

[K Gardner]

160. One of my all time favorite quotes. Thanks for posting it. n/t

[nobodyspecial]

163. There are lots of people in this thread

staring into the abyss. Their hearts are as filled with hate as Cheney's.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

167. It's not my fault Cheney had a horrible heart. However, he was not a good man...

He was an evil man, and I don't applaud his chance to continue to live, while others, who are kind and humane, lose their chance to find a heart.

[K Gardner]

168. This was an OP about how organ transplant lists work. Not about whether a person

was good or evil. It was a post trying to shed some light into the dark plague of conspiracy theories and false assumptions about how a heart was obtained. No one applauded anything, anywhere.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

169. I realize that. Regardless of the process (which sounds good on paper, but where there's $$$$, it

gets expedited), I gave my view.

[1620rock]

170. So let me get this right...

Charles Mansen would have the same chance to get a heart as say, Donald Trump??...You've got to be kidding.

[eShirl]

177. The Donald could travel internationally to a country where organ buying is perfectly legal.

Without fear of being detained to ultimately stand trial for war crimes.

[Art_from_Ark]

188. Do you actually think that anyone would arrest Cheney outside the US?

Does any country in the world have an arrest warrant for this man?

[eShirl]

190. Yes, I do think Cheney would be subject to possible arrest outside the US.

I'm not aware of any country that has a standing warrant for his arrest.

Consider the following:
[link:http://www.thenation.com/blog/158334/avoiding-handcuffs-george-bush-cancels-swiss-trip-after-human-rights-groups-seek-arrest-|
'Avoiding the Handcuffs': George Bush Cancels Swiss Trip, After Human Rights Groups Seek Arrest on Torture Charges]

[Art_from_Ark]

193. Granted, that was Switzerland

It is still not clear whether or not Swiss authorities would actually have arrested bu$h. And human rights groups have no power to arrest anyone.

Of course, there was the recent visit to Canada that Cheney canceled due to "security reasons", so I will cede this point. Maybe Cheney IS afraid of being arrested outside the US.

[snot]

171. Thank you!

Totally agreed.

Attacking and judging individuals is generally not helpful.

Challenging ideas and using love and art to promote what we believe to to be the best ones generally is helpful.

[IndyJones]

175. Thank you to the OP for posting that information. I have to admit, the thought crossed my mind to

wonder if he leap frogged higher up the waiting list, but I didn't want to go there unless it was shown to be truly the case. I wasn't going to get involved in discussions that made that accusation.

I'd rather put my energies into more important issues than silly speculation or making up things that are not true.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

196. There's really nothing that isn't influenced by money. From getting a table at a restaurant is

influenced by money, to getting an organ faster. Everything is influenced by money. Nothing is immune. It might be if God were the administrator of everything, but God isn't.

[Art_from_Ark]

176. I have a VERY HARD time believing that a man who

1) got 5 deferments to avoid the draft,
2) weasled his way out of countless DUIs
3) appointed himself as Dubya's running mate despite the Constitutional prohibition against President and Vice President being residents of the same state,
4) was party to a court case in which he was good friends with the accepting judge and which helped him gain the Vice Presidency through dubious means
5) made the victim of his shooting "accident" apologize for "getting in the way" of his rifle,
6) had no qualms about starting needless wars that his "former" company profited from, and
7) showed absolutely no deference to anyone outside of his circle while occupying the Vice President's residence

would somehow wait patiently for 20 months for his turn at getting a heart transplant.

[eShirl]

178. He would have to if he wanted the best medical experts in the US on his transplant team.

Not to mention the best medical facilities.

And I think there are reasons he wouldn't want to travel to, say, Europe.

[Art_from_Ark]

179. You don't think that as a former *cough* vice president,

as well as someone who was LOADED with money, he wouldn't ALREADY have access to the "best medical experts"?

[eShirl]

181. Of course he has access to the best medical experts.

[Art_from_Ark]

182. He has access to the best medical experts *without having to wait*

I see no reason to believe, given the man's character and history of using his influence and connections to get his way, that he would somehow stand in a long line behind the "peasants" for a chance to get a new heart.

[eShirl]

183. Forget Cheney's character, you are accusing his doctors of corruption.

"Dr. Reiner has cared for Mr. Cheney for many years at George Washington University Hospital in Washington. Because that hospital does not perform heart transplants and is just beginning to implant ventricular assist devices, his team has worked with a team headed by Dr. Shashank Desai at Inova Fairfax in caring for Mr. Cheney. " (quoted from this article in the NY Times)

[Art_from_Ark]

186. I made no such accusation

I am merely pointing out that in the past, what Cheney has wanted, Cheney has gotten, by hook or by crook. Vice presidential candidacy in violation of the Constitution. Stolen election with a deciding vote cast by his duck-hunting buddy. War of convenience which handsomely profited his former company.

[eShirl]

187. How exactly could he game the system with all other parties remaining innocent?

[Art_from_Ark]

189. He has gamed the system before

He gamed the system when he ran for vice president while a resident of the same state as his running mate. Did the other parties involved commit a crime?

[eShirl]

191. Yes, absolutely.

[Art_from_Ark]

194. And yet, no one paid for that crime

No one was even accused of a crime. Cheney merely declared that he was a resident of Wyoming by virtue of his owning property there, and that was that.

[eShirl]

198. Correct.

[eShirl]

184. also, standing in a long line is EXACTLY what happened

or is your argument that he waited the typical length of time a heart transplant patient is on the waiting list, just to make it appear that he was actually on the waiting list? Exactly how does that make any sense?

[Doctor_J]

192. Amen

It is the soft-heartedness and/or unshakeable optimism of Dems & liberals that has contributed to our mess. the man being discussed is a total sociopath - completely devoid of empathy or of a conscience. He most certainly would NOT wait his turn to add some years to his miserable life.

[K Gardner]

201. And yet, he did. If you'll take the time to read the numerous articles that go back TWO YEARS

about Cheney receiving his LVAD and about him being PUT on the UNOS waiting list, you'll save yourself a lot of aggravation speculating upon things that simply are not true.

He waited 20 months for a donor heart. During that time, he was on an LVAD. At one point, he said he did not even want a transplant.

So I'm very sorry you have a hard time believing it. But that's really your problem.

[emilyg]

204. Fact - he did wait 20 months.

[MrMickeysMom]

180. You're pretty much on the same page as I am on this...

Probably for the same reason, as a respiratory therapist for umpteen years, it's against my nature to wish death... (even though, as I beat the hump in the middle of my bed some days when making it, I think, "Cheney, Cheney"...)

I hope he lives out his life as someone HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE MANY, MANY WAR CRIMES we are all so angry over.

He's not a lone candidate for this role, but he's right at the TOP!

Let's follow his rehab and watch every move till he's there. Meanwhile, ya think any donor's heart won't be tainted by Dick Cheney's body?

[behrstar]

185. As a gay man

my blood and organs are considered tainted. If I answer question honestly, I am not allowed to donate blood. When a friend was dying from leukemia, I tried to join a marrow donor registry and was turned down because I refused to lie about my sexual orientation.
I realize this is off topic, but seems somewhat related to me. I refuse to lie. What if it was MY heart that would have saved Cheney’s life?
And, I agree with so many of you that he needs to be tried for war crime but that our corrupt government won’t let it happen.

[Brigid]

195. Yes, like it or not . . .

Cheney got that heart, and there is no evidence that he gamed the system to get it. Absent such evidence, this one goes in the "life isn't fair" file.

[cheneyschernobyl]

197. There are few people I despise more

than crash-cart. Although human suffering is a terrible thing for anyone to endure, I have no sympathy/empathy/etc. for him. If that makes he a monster, then so be it. To say otherwise is to be dishonest with my conscience. He's directly responsible for the deaths and suffering for millions of people to one degree or another.

When the time comes for him to join Satan I will rejoice. He can party with other rw extremists such as raygun.

[CrispyQ]

199. With friends like this, you get what you need.

~lol

I like the poster above who suggested that we use Cheney as the poster boy for universal health care, because the bigger question is, how many people who need a heart don't have the health coverage to even get on the list?

[datasuspect]

202. fuck dick cheney in his ear

that is all.

he's a diabolical scumbag who deserves to be dragged through whatever he gets dragged through.

[w8liftinglady]

207. I agree with you 100%- I have cared for both donors and recipients

My Donors were usually head injuries- young and healthy.
Most of my recipients were heart and lung- all ages.There are so many variables at play.