Selling a Poison by the Barrel: Liquid Nicotine for E-Cigarettes

[onehandle]

A dangerous new form of a powerful stimulant is hitting markets nationwide, for sale by the vial, the gallon and even the barrel.

The drug is nicotine, in its potent, liquid form — extracted from tobacco and tinctured with a cocktail of flavorings, colorings and assorted chemicals to feed the fast-growing electronic cigarette industry.

These “e-liquids,” the key ingredients in e-cigarettes, are powerful neurotoxins. Tiny amounts, whether ingested or absorbed through the skin, can cause vomiting and seizures and even be lethal. A teaspoon of even highly diluted e-liquid can kill a small child.

But, like e-cigarettes, e-liquids are not regulated by federal authorities. They are mixed on factory floors and in the back rooms of shops, and sold legally in stores and online in small bottles that are kept casually around the house for regular refilling of e-cigarettes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/24/business/selling-a-poison-by-the-barrel-liquid-nicotine-for-e-cigarettes.html

But... but... but... Big E-Cigarette tells us it's just 'water vapor.'

[Travis_0004]

1. I thought we were supposed to bash E cigs on Thursday?

[russspeakeasy]

18. + 100000000000000000000

[CreekDog]

30. are you against bashing unhealthy products?

oh yeah, come to think of your posts, I guess you are...

[Electric Monk]

2. There was a huge thread on this yesterday

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4718029

[pipoman]

3. Damn, there must be endless stories of

Emergency room visits and deaths, eh?

[Liberal Veteran]

4. It's like the Bhopa disaster everyday because of e-cigs.

Seriously, though, something is definitely driving the fear mongering on this.

And the hyperbole in the article makes it sound like people are bathing in pure nicotine and just spilling a few drops of e-cig liquid on your skin is going to send you to ER.

[pipoman]

7. This is the quote I found interesting..

“It’s not a matter of if a child will be seriously poisoned or killed,” said Lee Cantrell, director of the San Diego division of the California Poison Control System and a professor of pharmacy at the University of California, San Francisco. “It’s a matter of when.”

And how is that different from half of the shit under every kitchen sink, in garages, in medicine cabinets, pool houses, potting sheds, etc. Poison abounds and is safely and effectively used every day.

[Liberal Veteran]

9. And considering that every bottle I've seen is child resistant and the sticker says...

Keep out of reach of children...

[Glitterati]

10. So....

WHEN is it that we're going to see kids going to the ER from chewing those nicotine gums and lozenges????? You know, those nicotine replacements sold OTC thanks to the FDA since 1996!!!!!

Oh, yeah, I think THAT nicotine comes by the barrel as well.

Hmmmm.........

[Liberal Veteran]

14. I've heard those gums and lozenges come in minty, cinnamon, and fruit flavors....

Obviously trying to get the youngsters hooked on nicotine.



Yummy. What kid doesn't like strawberry, orange, pineapple, and banana?

[Glitterati]

15. The CHILDREN, think about the CHILDREN!

Isn't that the refrain used in the last week all over DU?

OMG, gum in flavors that attract the CHILDREN! Quick, let's outlaw it!

[pipoman]

19. Yet these are no problem. ..

[Glitterati]

20. Of course not! Big Pharma

doesn't have a competing product on the market. And, they aren't paying some lobbying firm to keep these thing on the internet!

[frylock]

21. mmmmmmmmmmmmm... bursting flavor..

[SirRevolutionary]

48. That's a great point

Where is the outrage?! We can certainly find massive groups of kids who would tell you they'd never touch an ecig, but I'll bet everyone of them loves gum (especially when it's bursting with flavor).

So where's the outrage over marketing to kids? What about those hordes of nicotine-addicted future generations who have Fruit Wave Flavor gum to blame for their plight? Why doesn't this delicious, colorful gum serve as a gateway to smoking cigarettes and coughing up phlegm for the indefinite future?

And...ahm...the KIDS THE KIDS!!!

[SirRevolutionary]

26. True story...

My kid started smoking cigarettes after getting hooked on the gum. Then made a living peddling ecigs with crack to unsuspecting victims in dark alleyways until an early death and reanimation as a nicotine-addicted zombie.

*Lawyers blurb* None of the above statement is actually true or fact based, but rather added for dramatic affect before this thread gets booted as a dupe.

[Glitterati]

27. ROFLMAO

and on that note, I am off to bed.

Thanks for the fun end to a good day!

[Warpy]

28. There is no antidote, that's the problem.

It really does need to be kept away from the kiddies, preferably under lock and key between fill ups.

However, I agree that it's "when." Consider all the dim bulbs out there that leave loaded guns all over the place with kids in the house.

[pipoman]

29. It probably is when...

And 'when', it will be tragic no doubt. If we were legislating everything based on the 'when',our world, stores, and homes would look entirely different. ...

[yawnmaster]

47. similarly, swimming pools. eom

[LadyHawkAZ]

22. It's almost like... some huge corporations with millions of dollars to spend

are financing some kind of a smear campaign against a competitor...

Nah. Too far-fetched.

[Glitterati]

23. No, I don't think it's far fetched at all

Happens all the time.

After all, if it's on the internet is HAS to be true, right?

[CreekDog]

31. something is perfectly safe if you don't have to visit the ER after using it

typical logic from you.

[pipoman]

36. Nothing is perfectly safe...can you read?

[CreekDog]

38. well you said:

pipoman (12,123 posts)
3. Damn, there must be endless stories of

Emergency room visits and deaths, eh?

why don't you have the courage to stand by your words?

[pipoman]

43. Just because you have a hard time understanding

Doesn't mean you get to make stuff up. ..

[CreekDog]

44. i quoted you

[pipoman]

51. You started with a fallacious interpretation of what I said. ..

Start there...

[CreekDog]

56. ok, you began by mockingly saying there would be ER visits

if they were truly dangerous.

you began by mocking and setting up a straw man and now you're feeling persecuted that someone has actually answered you.

i realize what you want is to post nonsense and not be called on it.

well we aren't here to coddle you.

[pipoman]

73. Oh, I see. .

You were offended by me "mocking" a hair-on-fire post about the extreme danger of something or other that is actually no more dangerous than any of about a million other things commonly found in and around people's homes. Now for me, if e cigs disappeared tomorrow, I couldn't give a pinch of poop because I don't use them. OTOH if we are going to apply the same to everything with the same amount of danger. ...well then that will be affecting many things I value, and will change many things you would never expect....lol..

Now about your illogical (and rude) response to my response to an op, not written by you, and the erroneous article quoted in the op (also assumably not written by you), somehow offended or upset you to the point of losing your ability to think and comprehend....that might be something you or a pro should look at...

[ProfessorGAC]

41. Really?

That's not what was said and you know. You are upset that nobody is helping you sharpen your ax.

There is a difference between hoping people are careful with POTENTIALLY dangerous items making a declarative judgment that scare mongering is acceptable because you think so.

You are so bent on declaring the health impact sacrosanct that you insult those that have a different view.

Must be nice for you to know you can walk on water.

[yawnmaster]

5. I learned something!!

you can get nicotine by the barrel!

[Liberal Veteran]

6. I know. I've been buying in milliliters and all this time I could have got barrels of it.

[yawnmaster]

8. I wonder if they are oak. Although perhaps cedar scented nicotine would be a nice change...

hmmmm...how long to get through a barrel?

[Glitterati]

11. I suspect that nicotine would be like my bird

it would outlive YOU!

(My bird is a macaw with a 50-75 year lifespan in captivity.)

[blogslut]

12. oooh

A juice flavor with hints of juniper would be very nice. I would try that.

[frylock]

13. sounds even more lethal than Saddam's WMD that the NYT was pimping hard in 2003

[pipoman]

16. Hell...didn't think of that...

If barrels are so available, why not crop dust those pesky terrorists...they'd be dropping like flies. .

[Liberal Veteran]

17. Well, North Carolina and Kentucky are major producers of these WMDs.

We may need to invade soon.

[Mariana]

24. This thread is hilarious.

Seriously. I haven't laughed this hard in a while.

[Mnpaul]

84. Agreed

Haven't seen a tread this funny in quite a while. The WMDs bit above put it over the top.

[hunter]

25. I confess, I'm a caffeine addict.

This nicotine stuff sometimes sounds interesting.

I wonder how it compares to my hard-core prescription SNDRI and other crazy meds?

Nah, I'm okay as I am. Not enough interest in nicotine to try it. Does not exceed my cheap-ass threshold. No insurance I just live crazy.

But people who self medicate will self medicate.

The current legal and medical framework is not helpful to some, in fact it makes life worse for people with troubles.

E-cigs stink less than real cigarettes and are probably less hazardous to the user.

That's my opinion.

[cthulu2016]

32. This article was silly the fist five times it was posted here... but maybe it will improve with age

[KittyWampus]

35. I'm laughing so hard on the replies in this thread… so it was worth the 2nd attempt

Always good to start a morning with mirth.

[Mnpaul]

85. The responses seem to be improving though

The e-cig thing has reached a level of "Nicotine Madness" and apparently I'm not the only one seeing the similarities:

E-Cigarettes' Nicotine Liquid Triggers Reefer Madness in the New York Times

But a closer look at the Times' "Selling a Poison by the Barrel: Liquid Nicotine for E-Cigarettes" suggests hysteria along the lines of Reefer Madness. Some of the numbers, at minimum, appear to have been exaggerated. And despite the Times' assertions about the drug's potentially fatal consequences, the data clearly shows no epidemic.

In fact, the year 2012 is the latest for which the American Association of Poison Control Centers has full data on e-liquid poisonings, overdoses and deaths. The total number of people who died from nicotine liquid in 2012?

One.

And the guy "injected himself" as part of a suicide for which he left a note, according to the association's account.
http://www.laweekly.com/informer/2014/03/25/e-cigarettes-nicotine-liquid-triggers-reefer-madness-in-the-new-york-times

[snooper2]

33. I like how the person in the picture is in a black leather jacket

It makes it even MORE EVIL

[bunnies]

55. lol! They didnt go far enough though.

Opportunity: Missed.

[Jesus Malverde]

34. Here are 182 replies on the same article....

Lest this tread becomes repetitive

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024718029

The Keywords bleach, child safety caps, israeli baby od and died, woman break e-pen in bed, peanut butter and banana flavors.

Should catch this thread up to speed...



One of the best parts of the article is where they mention that e-juice is made They are mixed on "factory floors" and in the "back rooms" of shops."

In China they pour the e-juice all over the factory floor and them stomp on fruit to give it flavor. The "back room" is where they put in all the toxic waste they are trying to get rid of a real challenge since fukushima.

[maddezmom]

37. Thanks for the recap

Lot of new topics in there since I hid it. Going to have to go back and take a look now.

[LadyHawkAZ]

39. For some reason, I now I have a picture in my head

of Lucille Ball stomping grapes and liquid nicotine in a vat.

[maddezmom]

40. LOL

http://m.

[Tikki]

42. Well, what I have learned about the e-cigarette crowd…

..the ingredients they vap…it's all good with them. Anyway, you and I might have a slice of tomato on
our sandwich and, by heck, that has nicotine too.
And I don't really care about what adults choose to do, either.

But I do want e-cigarettes regulated so a new generation finds them difficult to obtain
and expensive to buy not so amazing after all.

I bet with this we all agree.

Tikki

[KittyWampus]

45. No, there's no reason to make them expensive. You realize there is no tobacco smoke?

No inhalation of particles, no carcinogens?

It's flavored liquid that may, or may not, have nicotine.

[Tikki]

46. It's always going to be.."ingredients are all good" with the vapers

even when the evidence becomes overwhelming and if they remain on the market
I have no problem with adults doing what adults must do.

But a younger generation needs to know we are looking out for them
and regulations, even extra taxes, should be part of the package.


Tikki

[KittyWampus]

52. so you aren't interested in facts.

[Tikki]

53. I am and they are all over the place...

Nicotine is addictive, very addictive…

and if the other ingredients are harmful further testing will put an end to the product.

But even if the FDA or CDC or whatever lets the juice slip through there is no reason
a new generation needs to be addicted to nicotine.

I support doing whatever it takes to keep a younger group of Americans off nicotine.


Tikki

[beevul]

62. Its far more addictive when combusted. N/T

[LadyHawkAZ]

72. So's caffeine

and refined sugar, and alcohol.

For some reason, I don't see the same Ban It! propaganda being posted once or twice a week on those subjects. Only nicotine, and mainly e-cigs (we do get the rare OP on actual smoking, but not nearly as much as e-cigs).

As I said elsewhere, it's almost as if there's a campaign being waged by Some Corporations With A Lot Of Money against a competitor that's threatening their profits, with a lot of help from the gullible and easily offended members of the populace. Of course Big Tobacco would never do such a thing, though, would they? Naaaah... totally coincidental, just like this sudden rash of "marijuana deaths" hitting the news right as two states are making a success of legalization is totally coincidental. Nothing to see here, move along.

[Tyhanna]

81. oh really?

The nicotine in all the NRTs is the same nicotine as what is found in e-cigarettes, all comes from the same places.

So you believe nicotine in NRTs is also very addictive? Why is it then that they are finding that while using the patch on people for other medical problems that the people that had never smoked did not get addicted to the nicotine.

[link:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC526783/?report=classic|]

Isnt it up to the parents to keep their children away from Adult products?
Why is it no problem when parents buy or let their children buy power drinks, caffeine have more side effects than nicotine and is addictive also. As long as there are adult activities young people are going to try to do them.

They have found with out the burning of tobacco and all the chemicals to enhance the nicotine threw burning tobacco that its no more addictive than Caffeine.

E-cigarettes are helping millions of people that just couldn't quit smoking and even those that didn't want to quit smoking. If kids want to get nicotine they can just buy the one of the many NRTs, which they do. They can get them and conceal using them if they are serious about using nicotine.
[link:http://whyquit.com/whyquit/A_NRT_teens.html|]

as far as what the FDA says about NRTs and nicotine, "The changes that FDA is allowing to these labels reflect the fact that although any nicotine-containing product is potentially addictive, decades of research and use have shown that NRT products sold OTC do not appear to have significant potential for abuse or dependence." NOTE they say "....decades of research and use have shown that NRT products sold OTC do not appear to have significant potential for abuse or dependence."

[link:http://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm345087.htm|]

Remember the nicotine found in all the NRTs is the same nicotine found in e-cigarettes. It all comes from the same places.
Burning tobacco is what causes the harm not nicotine when its not in burning tobacco.

[frylock]

57. well shit, let's take a gander at that overwhelming evidence

[Mariana]

74. More like overwhelming wishful thinking. nt.

[frylock]

75. it has been several hours. takes awhile to compile that "overwhelming evidence" i suppose

[Mariana]

76. Funny how we never see one of these people saying

"I hope the studies show they're completely safe to use, that would be terrific!"

[frylock]

77. i think that this post nailed it dead on..

and in the interest of full disclosure, I don't even use nicotine. I do however use a similar delivery system for THC. I, like many others here I'm sure, are reacting to the hyperbolic bullshit headline. nobody is buying nic juice by the barrel ffs.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024718029#post99

[Oilwellian]

69. Well, there is this...

If wisely regulated, electronic cigarettes have the potential to obsolete cigarettes and to save millions of lives worldwide. Excessive regulation, on the contrary, will contribute to maintain the existing levels of smoking-related disease, death and health care costs.

Signatories

Professor Jean-François Etter, PhD,

Associate Professor, Privat docent, Institut de santé globale, Faculté de médecine, Université de Genève, Switzerland.

Dr. Konstantinos Farsalinos, MD

Researcher, Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center, Athens, Greece
Researcher, University Hospital Gathuisberg, Leuven, Belgium.

Professor Peter Hajek, PhD

Wolfson Institute of Preventive Medicine, Barts and The London School of Medicine and Dentistry Queen Mary University of London, London, UK.

Dr. Jacques Le Houezec, PhD

Consultant in Public Health, Tobacco dependence, Rennes, France
& Honorary Lecturer, UK Centre for Tobacco Control Studies, University of Nottingham, UK.

Dr. Hayden McRobbie, MB ChB PhD

Reader in Public Health Interventions, Wolfson Institute of Preventive Medicine, Queen Mary University of London, UK.

Professor Chris Bullen, MBChB, PhD

Director, The National Institute for Health Innovation, The University of Auckland, Auckland, New Zealand.

Professor Lynn T. Kozlowski, PhD

Dean, School of Public Health and Health Professions, Professor of Community Health and Health Behavior, University at Buffalo, State University of New York, USA.

Dr. Mitchell Nides, PhD

President, Los Angeles Clinical Trials, Director, Picture Quitting, the Entertainment Industry's, Quit Smoking Program, Burbank, CA 91505, USA.

Professor Dimitris Kouretas, MD

Professor and Deputy Rector University of Thessaly, Greece.

Professor Riccardo Polosa, MD, PhD

Director of the Institute for Internal Medicine and Clinical Immunology, University of Catania, Italy.

Dr. Karl Fagerström, PhD

President, Fagerström Consulting AB, Vaxholm, Sweden.

Professor Martin Jarvis, Dsc

Emeritus Professsor of Health Psychology, Department of Epidemiology & Public Health, University College London, UK.

Dr. Lynne E. Dawkins, PhD

Senior Lecturer in Psychology, School of Psychology, University of East London, Stratford, London, UK.

Dr. Pasquale Caponnetto, Assistant Professor, Researcher

Centro per la Prevenzione e Cura del Tabagismo, Azienda Ospedaliero-Universitaria “Policlinico-V. Emanuele”, Università di Catania, Catania, Italy.

Professor Jonathan Foulds PhD

Professor of Public Health Sciences & Psychiatry, Penn State University, College of Medicine, Cancer Institute, Cancer Control Program, Hershey, PA 17033-0850, USA.

http://www.ecigarette-research.com/web/index.php/2013-04-07-09-50-07/149-tpd-errors

[Demit]

54. Expensive to buy is going to make them difficult for a new generation to obtain?

A) Do you really think that? or B) Is there possibly another reason you want them to be expensive?

[Mariana]

58. What, exactly, would you like to tax?

The hardware? The liquids that contain nicotine? The liquids that don't contain nicotine? The nicotine itself?

[Tikki]

59. The nicotine, up front…then they, whoever they are, can let the free market set a price there after.

Maybe the tobacco companies will subsidize you all...



Tikki
ps nicotine used as a poison is regulated.

[Mariana]

60. No need for snark, it was a serious question.

I don't use nicotine anymore, just so you know. Your little jibe was misplaced.

So you would leave the vapers who don't use nicotine in their e-cigs alone.

Perhaps it would encourage more vapers to move to zero nicotine fluid if the fluids with nicotine came at a higher price. Of course, almost all of them gradually do that already, since they took up vaping in the first place for that very purpose.

[Tikki]

61. I jibed no one. Someone asked a question, I answered.

I am serious about finding a way to protect future generations from nicotine addiction.

Tikki

[beevul]

63. If you're "serious" about finding a way to protect future generations from nicotine addiction...

If you're "serious" about finding a way to protect future generations from nicotine addiction, I suggest, as a first step, actually UNDERSTANDING it.

[Tikki]

65. I do understand it…I was a smoker for 30+ years.

I know what it took me to quit.

I am patient with adult smokers and vapers, but just saying we won't sell our
e-cigarettes to anyone under 18 y. o. isn't enough.



Tikki

[beevul]

66. Then the ONLY thing you know, is combustion based nicotine addiction.

Then the only thing you know, is combustion based nicotine addiction.

Freebasing nicotine via the tobacco from big tobacco, which contains maois, is not remotely the same animal as nicotine via a vape.

Vaping is not smoking, and smoking is not vaping. Likewise, the nicotine addiction is as different from one to the other, as the one act is from the other.

Alike in appearance, and in the minds of people that don't know any better, more than anything else.

[Tikki]

67. Nicotine is addictive…would you consider giving an e-cigarette starter kit as a present to

a young adult because they've asked for one and they really want to try it?


Tikki

[beevul]

68. Sure, why not?

Its not my place to make choices for anyone else, or interfere with a the legal choices of another adult.

Oh, I get it. throw the "young" adult into it, and its another form of "for the children".

I must be slipping. You almost got me with that one.


Would forbid people of legal age from such things?

Would you rather they freebase for their nicotine from a "big tobacco" product instead?


On edit: For the record, I notice you don't seem to want to discuss nicotine addiction in the multiple contexts in which it exists.

[Mariana]

70. There are many times more kids taking up smoking

than there are using e-cigs, with or without nicotine. This crusade against e-cigs is really weird, when there are still so many getting hooked on cigarettes.

[beevul]

71. Its pure ignorance, coupled with puritanical fanaticism and hate.

Its pure ignorance, coupled with puritanical fanaticism and hate.

[Tyhanna]

82. Then you agree...

Then you agree they should tax all nicotine products including NRTs?

Are NRTs also poison to?

Its only poison when taking in large quantity's, more than a e-cigarette or NRTs can provide.

[yawnmaster]

49. Since one can get nicotine by the barrel, I assume they are storing them in barrels and...

aging it like wine.
Do they blend the nicotine once it comes from the leaf, to get those special tastes of berry, tannin, etc.?

Personally, I want a single leaf nicotine.
although I won't turn down a taste of the blended variety.

[Liberal Veteran]

50. I want the stuff extracted from the wood of the barrel....The Devil's Cut.

[Jesus Malverde]

80. Mentioned in the article is synthetic nicotine.

They may not even need tobacco.

[Tyhanna]

83. FDA has not approved synthetic nicotine for human use. n/t

[yawnmaster]

86. well THAT nicotine, obviously, will not be aged in barrels! eom

[Oilwellian]

64. Do you eat?

Neurotoxins are added to virtually every packaged food and beverage sold in almost every store. Not just packaged meal type items, but many of the ingredients used to create a meal.

Anyone wanting to avoid neurotoxic additives needs to know that there is a lot more to it than just looking for MSG on the label. MSG may be the most well known of the additives, but all the others are just as hazardous to health and as likely to produce a reaction. Even if products say "No MSG" or call themselves "all natural" or "organic", it is almost a certainty that neurotoxic additives are in that product. There is no way to know unless you are willing to take the time to read the label.

When there are a hundred different kinds of neurotoxic food additives used being pumped into almost everything on stores shelves, trying to avoid them may seem like navigating a mine field. It helps if you are armed with a listing of what to avoid. The label of any product that is canned, frozen, bagged, bottled, boxed, wrapped, put in a carton, or offered in a take home dish or container needs to be examined because almost all of them contain neurotoxins. Check everything you suspect may have flavoring added to it, even coffee, tea bags, and bottled waters. You will be surprised. Be sure to check chewing gum and candy.

Neurotoxic Chemical Food Additives

aspartame
autolyzed anything
barley malt
beef base
beef flavoring
beef stock
bouillon
broth of any kind
calcium caseinate
carrageenan
caseinate
chicken base
chicken broth
chicken flavoring
chicken stock
disodium anything
dough conditioner
flavoring
gelatin
gelatinized anything
glutamate
gaur gum
hydrolyzed anything
kombu extract
l-cysteine
malt anything
malted anything
milk solids
monosodium glutamate
natural flavor
nutrasweet
pork base
pork flavoring
protein concentrate
protein extract
seasoned salt
seasoning
smoke flavoring
sodium caseinate
solids of any kind
soup base
soy extract
soy protein anything
soy sauce
spice
stock
textured protein
textured vegetable protein
umami
vegetable gum
whey anything
yeast extract

http://www.naturalnews.com/026244_food_MSG_neurotoxins.html

Please, spare me the pearl-clutching concern for neurotoxins.

[SirRevolutionary]

78. I want legislation passed to make Critical Thinking classes

mandatory in all public schools so hopefully the next generation will be devoid of hall monitors and nannies telling adults what they can/can't do or writing scary sounding articles based on pseudo science, personal beliefs and/or bias, and Hogwarts magic.

Child safety locks. Just like we have on bleach. Parental control, parental critical thinking. By the way, my bottle of vodka does not have a child safety cap. Where's the outrage? What about the kids?!

[Vashta Nerada]

79. Another anti-e-cigarette article.

I'm shocked.



Hey, let's see another anti-Snowden thread while we're at it.