I find the Hobby Lobby case to be so deeply offensive, it's impossible to describe.

[mountain grammy]

First, to claim that this case is about religious freedom is absurd enough to be obscene. Here are the wealthy and privileged using their riches to make a mockery of the very real religious persecution that has and still is occurring all over the world. Were these people locked in dungeons? Were they burned at the stake? No, their precious "religious freedom" to control their employee's lives has been violated by that awful president. After all, that's what this is really about now, isn't it?

Second, the birth control arguments are nothing short of ridiculous and sickening. This has been settled. I was a high school senior in Connecticut when the Supreme Court told my state it could not prohibit the use of contraceptives. That was 1965, and these old bastards on the Supreme Court are still "conflicted?" I am an American woman. I will decide what is right for me. I want these old men to back the hell off and STFU. The government has no business in the private business of consenting adults.

But, when the outcome of a case like this one is in doubt, I think the adults have been overrun.

[The Magistrate]

1. I Quite Agree, Ma'am

A person's freedom of religion cannot extend to compelling anyone else to abide by the doctrines of their religion.

If some religion actually requires its adherents to impose their beliefs on people who do not share them, then the civil power should, and rightly should, interfere with that religion with the full force of its civil and police authority.

[roguevalley]

17. I consider this case to be blasphemy. Since when do they think they can judge as a

god what is good for people they don't even know? When is my freedom to choose worth less than a total stranger's god complex?

I am spiritual, beyond the bend spiritual. I am religious. I am not dogmatic nor am I fixed in my briefs that the path to God/Goddess/Spirt's door is one path. I don't believe that anyone on this side of the matrix is chosen or smart enough to speak as or for god.

I died once. I had a near death experience. I went over there and it was FREAKING WONDERFUL! It was LOVE.

These people are trying to institutionalize hatred and they are working to dissolve our unity and union. We only function as a society because we agree on things. If they can make a building a person and then give them religious feelings, then we are over. I am as sick of the 'religious' fuckers as the next person but I also know that God cannot be fooled. These clowns bother me because they have no line which they won't cross and more than anything else, they aren't even afraid of God.

Fuck them and this bill.

[Enthusiast]

30. I mean, really, what do you expect from Fascists?

They might not even recognize themselves as Fascists.

They are not going to act in a manner in keeping with the ideals of the founders. These are not men of integrity.

Like the clergy that presided over the inquisition, these are not men of integrity.

[RKP5637]

52. Agree! "Fuck them and this bill." They are all about dominance, persecution and

forcing their will on others. It is obscene!

[lark]

87. Sooo agree

This isn't about adults vs. children, it's about forcing us to toe their lines, about forcing women to have babies when they don't want them, forcing women to be more dependent on men, making us and our children more poor so we will work more cheaply for them and their cronies and be less able to expose their heinous lies and actions. Scalia could give a flying fuck about women and children's needs or anything but helping the 1% steal the rest of the money. Everything else they say is a lie and a fig leaf for their real intentions.

[RKP5637]

91. I have very little respect for some of SCOTUS, and marginal respect for congress. n/t

[BlancheSplanchnik]

92. +++!! n/t

[jeanliberty90]

119. What about the government?

Isn't it trying to force its will on Hobby Lobby?

[RKP5637]

120. To me, I see it as a question of 'free choice' by the employees to have the

full range of contraceptives. The gov. IMO is trying to establish that free choice. I see Hobby Lobby as trying to force a restriction on that free choice by the employees.

I see it as a question of freedom and civil rights for the employees to partake in the benefits of the government programs. Hobby Lobby should not stand in the way of that freedom.

[jeanliberty90]

133. That being the issue

The insurance plan offered by Hobby Lobby prior to ACA apparently didn't include coverage for family planning and the employees seemed to have no issues with that. I see it as a case of the government forcing a private entity to pay for something it's employees did not ask for and the entity itself finds morally unacceptable.

[RKP5637]

134. Actually, in the big picture IMO companies should not be in the business of providing

health care to employees. I don't see why corporations should be paying for employees' health care at all. Originally, it was an exec perk, that eventually got extended to employees. The Hobby Lobby case is one example of why corporations should not be providing health care to employees. A far better solution would have been Medicare for all. ... but there is too much money exchanging hands, big $$$$$, so what could work best is not accomplished.

Now, for another aspect of this, what if Hobby Lobby or another company decides LGBT, for example, should not be covered because it is morally objectionable to them. Kansas, for example, tried to pass a law that anyone could deny medical services to LGBT if it was against their religion. Now, thanks to SCOTUS, apparently companies are people ... so, that same logic, sort of, could be applied?

BTW- Thanks for the discussion!

[DebJ]

96. Since when? Since they were indoctrinated. n/t

[Blue_In_AK]

100. A little off topic, but...

...what do you think of Pete Kelly and his "solution" to the FASD problem? Pregnancy tests in bars but birth control is "irresponsible." What a maroon. The people in Fairbanks who elected that idiot must be hanging their heads in shame.

[bravenak]

101. I noticed that.

So stupid.

[roguevalley]

114. lunacy is everywhere. none of these people understand women.

Loons, blue. All of them.

[Blanks]

111. Good point.

A person's freedom of religion cannot extend to compelling anyone else to abide by the doctrines of their religion.

Except the question here is: Can a corporation's religion extend to compelling someone else to abide by the doctrines of its religion?

Promoting corporations to a level of not just personhood, but super-personhood.

[mostlyconfused]

122. Maybe I'm misunderstanding the argument a bit here..

"A person's freedom of religion cannot extend to compelling anyone else to abide by the doctrines of their religion."

Is is the argument of the right wingers at Hobby Lobby that their employees should not be allowed to use contraception and should not be allowed freedom of choice?

As I first read the case they were saying they don't want to pay for those things, not that they want to force the employees to abide by the doctrines of their religion. But I've not read it in great detail, so I could be misunderstanding.

[Blanks]

130. They (Hobby Lobby) don't want to pay for it...

Because of their religious beliefs.

What if their religious beliefs prohibit them from looking at people paid to sit around - should they be exempted from paying for unemployment insurance? Should they be exempted from paying the employers share of FICA?

They're trying to use a religious justification to not pay for something (federal law) that they disagree with.

[bbgrunt]

2. you're right. It is offensive. nt

[LumosMaxima]

3. Well said. It's absurd that this is even before the SC. nt

[Loudly]

4. You might enjoy this. Excuse the source, but it is worth savoring.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/brad-wilmouth/2012/01/08/debate-abcs-stephanopoulos-presses-romney-contraception-ruling

How slippery the bastards are.

[mountain grammy]

35. Thank you, and yes, that was eye opening.. and just another reason to despise Rmoney

and the rest of the conservative fools who don't know what they're talking about.

[KT2000]

5. couldn't agree more

we are being persecuted by religion now.

[flygal]

6. Exactly!

My mom had five kids in less than six years because she lived in a town that only had a Catholic hospital and no doctor would carry the pill. In 1968 she was pregnant with number five and a new non-catholic opened a practice and she went to him crying and he said "if you don't want anymore kids, you shouldn't have to".

This case reminds me of the all the poor women living in that small town in the 60's who knew the pill was available elsewhere but the church was controlling everyone's lives based on their beliefs.

[SharonAnn]

104. And my mother, who had 8 children, went "visiting" some friends in another city

and just happened to deliver her eighth child while there. And she had no more children.

Many years later, I learned that she had a tubal ligation while there. She couldn't have it done in our town because "everyone" would have known.

She was a staunch Catholic, but thought that she had enough children to take care of.

Oh, and she was asked by the parish to participate in teaching the "pre-cana" (premarital) counseling for engaged couples on the subject of the rhythm method and natural birth control. She declined. She told me, "The priests wouldn't like what I have to say on that subject."

[Glitterati]

7. It's really about corporate personhood

AGAIN.

Now corporations want the Supreme Court to say that a COMPANY has a religious belief.

Of course, they want that corporate religion to apply ONLY to women, and ONLY about birth control.

This. Time.

But opening that door means that a corporation like Walmart can have a religion as well. ANY religion they prefer. And, hell, they can change the corporate religion like they do ad campaigns - when it suits them.

Heck, the Walmart religion against unions will qualify.

[Iliyah]

9. Agreed

Also, gawd fearing corporations can bring lawsuits against their rights not to hire gays, minorities, or any other persons they feel they don't want to hire.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

12. Next time a corporation's products or actions cause the death of someone

bring the Board of Directors and Top executive into court for homicide or manslaughter.

Personhood cuts both ways.

[Ilsa]

18. Amen to that.

Let's watch the corporation get real religious when it's owners are in jail.

[RKP5637]

136. Definitely! The way I see this is if this is OK'ed then corporate execs are liable personally and

can not be shielded by the corporation, as it's just another person. Some countries have executed executives for their fuck ups. I think it would be a good thing if Board of Directors and Top executives could be hauled into court and held accountable.

[RKP5637]

54. Next, they will want tax free status! n/t

[Glitterati]

58. No doubt. It's a long and winding road

once this door is opened.

Think about it - the church of Walmart!

[lark]

88. They already have that to a large degree.

The US Goverment is GIVING money to the oil companies, based on stupid lies inserted in secret by Bush appointees. GE hasn't paid taxes in years. Now their goal is nearly free labor and they've made great inroads on that front, to our people and country's financial distress.

[RKP5637]

93. The cards are so stacked, many are eventually just not going to give a fuck about the

country, many already don't.

[Starry Messenger]

8. I'm strangely numb about it.

There has been so much sexist abuse around reproductive issues in the last 4 years or so, that a right-wing fundy company going "Fuck you and your slut drugs." just seems par for the course at this point.

[hunter]

10. Yep.

How the hell did this reach the Supreme Court?

Hobby Lobby ought to have been smacked down by an intern in a much lower court.

[Glitterati]

14. They WERE

slapped down in the lower courts.

That's exactly HOW it got to the Supreme Court.

[mountain grammy]

37. and the Supreme Court should have let the lower court rulings stand..

but not the corrupt and slimy fearless five who will do as much damage as they can until they, mercifully, leave us forever.

[theHandpuppet]

26. How did this reach the SC?

This is how: relentless lawsuits and lobbying in the name of "religious freedom". And the anti-woman lawsuits are tied with the anti-gay lawsuits as well. When one tactic doesn't work, they try another until they find at angle that works. "Religious liberty" simply equates to the right to discriminate based on religious beliefs and once you open wide that barn door all the horses will bolt, not just the one you wanted to ride.

I've been posting about this for months but some folks seem to feel we should walk on eggshells when criticizing the homophobic and misogynist dogmas that have led us to this very point. I will leave it to others to play nice. This "religious liberty" crusade is bullshit and what is happening right now with the SC should be a surprise to no one.

http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/religious-liberty/index.cfm

[mountain grammy]

38. The hell with walking on eggshells! This is an all out assault on the first amendment

and nothing is out of bounds when the Supreme Court is giving these fanatics the light of day!

[Frustratedlady]

11. Makes you wonder what the true story is.

Is providing contraception against their religious beliefs truly the main reason or ACA coverage in general? Fear of abortion?

Why aren't they concerned about the world population...whether or not the child can be cared for, fed and housed? With the US wealth distribution so skewed, can that child receive the thousands of dollars worth of medical coverage, schooling and clothing it needs in its first 18 years? They complain about welfare and food stamps using up the country's wealth, yet insist on more children being born...many, not wanted.

OR,

Are the Republicans afraid they will run out of military personnel to fill the ranks for the many wars they'd love to be engaged in? God knows their kids won't be subjected, if possible. They must keep those ranks fed.

I swear I've never seen such a bunch of ignoramuses when it comes to sex. Actually, throw in religion. If they ever knew anything about religion and the teachings that go along with the basic religions, they've forgotten what they were taught.

And, no. I don't shop at Hobby Lobby. They should forget about spending money on this issue and put it into merchandise made in the USA. The quality of the crap from China isn't worth the trip to the store.

[Ilsa]

19. If HL cared about abortion, they wouldn't do so much business

with China. They care about money and control.

[panader0]

45. Yes--It seems the height of hypocrisy doesn't it?

After all, everyone knows that the Christian nation of China has no abortions. I'll bet 90% of Hobby Lobby stuff comes from China.

[Tess49]

89. Yep. This infuriates me. Why doesn't the press bring this up? Pisses me off even more. n/t

[mostlyconfused]

125. Now that is certainly an interesting point, isn't it?

Though not directly "paying for abortions", the purchase of all of those goods from China supports an economic and political system where a lot of them take place...plus plenty of other mistreatment of people, the environment, etc.

[JHB]

32. Never underestimate how much holier-than-thou people love to...

...draw themselves into a righteous fury and castigate the wicked sinners.

It lets them be the stars of the crudely-constructed morality plays that go on in their heads.

[mountain grammy]

39. +1000. I completely agree!

[Stargazer99]

85. You hit the nail on the head! I wonder why people don't figure this out

cannon fodder of the poor so the rich don't send their kids to the front line
they can go abroad and get an abortion (because they have the money to travel)
religion has been used to manipulate the common man
along with sub-par education
what an evil construct

[AnnieBW]

123. They Sell Cheap Christian Crap Made in China

Probably made by child labor in a country that forces abortions on women who are pregnant with their second child.

Go figure.

[Jerry442]

13. A Hobby Lobby victory would make a lovely wedge issue for 2014 and 2016.

I think a lot of this crap is about wedge issues. Really, do you remember anybody publicly agitating for stand-your-ground laws before they existed? But, oh what a great way to pit one part of the 99% against another part, when the inevitable high-profile shootings happen.

[Hekate]

15. Amen, Sister

You and I are the same age and it seems like women have to fight the same battles over and over and over.

[mountain grammy]

41. Sometimes I wonder how we got from there to here..

and why my daughter and granddaughters will have to do this all over again. If this sick bunch of conservative idiot justices rule for HL, I will be one of the millions of women who better get out there and fight this bullshit, and I'm getting way too old for this.

[azurnoir]

16. to extend ones religious beliefs on to others as under the guise religious freedom

is an Orwellian use of the term to put it mildly I don't think religious freedom means free to impose my religion on you

[mountain grammy]

42. Exactly!!

[kairos12]

99. This is a gender based inquisition imposed incrementally. People better wake up!!!

[Warpy]

20. Exactly, it's about corporate bullying

with religion as the excuse this time. Since women generally don't fight back, they started with us.

Forcing workers to adhere to an owner's religious dogma is insane. It's insane when Catholic hospitals won't deal with an ectopic pregnancy until it ruptures and brings a woman a hair's breadth away from death by exsanguination and it's insane when a crafts store is too prissy to obey the law covering insurance covering medications that are absolutely vital to women's health.

You just never know what the kooky Catholics on the bench are going to do. I hate it that the lives of women depend on what 5 out of touch old men are willing to do to save a corporation a few dollars on an insurance plan.

Hobby Lobby owners, being religiously insane, will simply refuse to offer employee insurance if the case doesn't go their way. Or they'll "go out of business," meaning they'll just sell the business to somebody who doesn't hate women.

[theHandpuppet]

27. Here's just one example from a link I provided earlier.

Please note just how far they want to go with this exemption -- the italics are mine.

U.S. Bishops File Amicus Curiae Brief Supporting Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood Specialties in Supreme Court Cases Challenging HHS MandateJanuary 28, 2014

Brief highlights 'potentially fatal fines' confronting closely held businesses
Reiterates support for business owners challenging HHS mandate
Laws must protect individuals and families who seek to practice faith in daily life

WASHINGTON—The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) on January 28 filed an amicus curiae brief with the U.S. Supreme Court in support of the plaintiffs in Sebelius v. Hobby Lobby Stores, Inc. and Conestoga Wood Specialties Corp. v. Sebelius.In both cases, family-owned businesses are challenging the legality of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) regulation that forces virtually all employers to include in their employee health plans coverage of sterilization, contraceptives, and drugs and devices that may cause abortions, as well as related education and counseling.

The USCCB explained in its amicus brief that it opposes "any rule that would require faithful Catholics and other religiously motivated business owners to choose between providing coverage for products and speech that violate their religious beliefs, and exposing their businesses to devastating penalties." These penalties include "potentially fatal fines" of $100 a day per affected individual.

The brief reflects and implements the U.S. bishops' consistent support for litigants from the non-profit and for-profit sectors alike who have challenged the HHS mandate in court.

Archbishop William E. Lori of Baltimore, chairman of the USCCB's Ad Hoc Committee for Religious Liberty, stated that "Catholics believe that the right to religious freedom proceeds from the inherent dignity of each and every human person, and that includes people who run businesses. They should not be specially excluded from the freedom to practice their faith in daily life."

The amicus brief argued that religious exercise cannot, and should not, be excluded from the marketplace; that the mandate substantially burdens Hobby Lobby's and Conestoga's religious exercise; and that the mandate cannot survive strict scrutiny review by the Court.

Hobby Lobby and Conestoga Wood Specialties are among over 90 lawsuits filed by more than 300 plaintiffs challenging the HHS mandate in courts around the country.

The brief is available online: http://www.usccb.org/about/general-counsel/amicus-briefs/upload/amicus-13-354-13-356-sebelius-hobby-lobby-conestoga-wood.pdf

[mountain grammy]

43. Thank you.. they just keep coming at us.

On Colbert last night, former president Jimmy Carter said he will become a Catholic when a woman priest invites him to join the Church.

[blkmusclmachine]

21. This is how you begin replacing Civil law with far rightwing "Biblical law."

[tavalon]

22. I used to have a "poly" family member who worked there so I kept my mouth shut.

She ended up being a homewrecker so I no longer have that constraint. I hate Hobby Lobby and will never, ever darken it's doors again.

[Tsiyu]

23. USA is Crazy Town any more

The lunatics are running this big fat asylum.

I can't believe we are fighting for a simple thing like birth control all over again. It's a mockery, a joke. The US is THE fucking laughing stock of the civilized world.

But one thing I wanna know- is Hobby Lobby opposed to Viagra?

Or can I, as an employer, force my employee's insurance company to deny it to men who suffer from ED because my religion is against it?

[notgoinback]

24. Thanks for articulating my own outrage at the "Hobby Lobby" petition

If these "good Christian" business owners are offended by contraceptive use, why don't they stop selling products to women who practice birth control? Sure, they'd probably lose 80 percent of their customers, and inevitably become bankrupt, but their eternal souls would no longer be contaminated when female non-believers line up at the "Hobby Lobby" cash registers to hand over their their money and credit cards.
Since this couple became millionaires, peddling merchandise to anyone who could pay for it, including no doubt many
atheists and agnostics, their only apparent "religious commitment" is to control the reproductive decisions of the
employees who helped them grow so rich and so insufferably righteous.

[mountain grammy]

44. and hopefully, that's exacty what will happen with a boycott.

[xchrom]

25. du rec.

[Enthusiast]

28. K&R! I am so with you, mountain grammy!

[Enthusiast]

29. I really feel that this post should have hundreds of recommendations.

[HockeyMom]

31. Men couldn't buy condoms before 1965?

Of course they could, married or not. It was WOMEN who they didn't want having birth control to control their own bodies. MEN controlled women's bodies then, and they want to again. If you cannot control your own body, you cannot control your OWN LIFE.

For what it's worth, I am an only child, by my parents choice, born in 1948. How could that possibly be???? Rhythm? Abstinence until MENOPAUSE?

[mercuryblues]

33. Again

women's body's for religious coins. I am sick of religion in my uterus.

The religious zealots need to shut the fuck up and get back into their caves. Just stop dragging the rest of us with you against our will. If this passes the SC there will be nothing but death and destruction. Your religion against childhood vaccines...Outbreaks of polio will be the norm. Religion against organ transplants...too god damned bad, die.

They disgust me to no end.

[davidpdx]

34. Kick and Record

I'm sick of the corporations getting more benefits than ordinary people. Corporations ARE NOT people! They should not have freedom of religion or freedom of speech. The old fashion Friedman mantra was that they only responsibility corporations had was to pay taxes. Well today in the 21st Century we are standing up and telling corporation that is bullshit. Consumers need to put pressure on corporations when their policies are wrong. Corporations have the obligation to pay their taxes and be good stakeholders in the community.

A little off-topic, but I happened to visit Unilever's page on Facebook today and they are getting pounded with messages about their policies on palm oil. Only when corporations are punished will they learn they can't rule the roost.

[Solly Mack]

36. K&R

[DirkGently]

40. We actually had to turn off a segment on this last night.

It's too infuriating. And completely in bad faith (pardon the pun). The entire impetus of this argument is to further Republicans' insane determination to attack the ACA, apparently forever. Employers have been providing health insurance for decades, and reproductive care has been part of that.

There's so much wrong here.

- The conceit that damaging and punishing other people is a "right," and that - "religious freedom" is primarily the freedom to discriminate against people.

- The repellant proposition that reproductive care -- and only women's reproductive care, mind you -- is subject to "moral objections" on the basis women "shouldn't" be engaging in certain religiously proscribed sexual activities

- The ongoing, farcical notion that corporations have all the "rights" of human beings, but none of the responsibilties.

There is slim possible silver lining here, whichever way the Court goes, which is the increasingly undeniably conclusion that employer-provided healthcare is a failed system. Given the argument that employers who provide healthcare are imbued with a new right of Corporate Religion to interfere with the healthcare of employees, it's time to complete healthcare reform by taking them entirely out of the loop with real, government-run universal healthcare.

[mountain grammy]

48. My husband has turned off the teevee.. he's tired of hearing me ranting every time

there is any talk of this case. He sees it, he agrees with me. But he's a man and has NEVER had his reproductive rights assaulted by other men who are doing the assaulting. He's concerned about my anger and blood pressure, but he knows, I'll be in the streets with my sisters and if he knows what's good for him, he'll be out there with me.

Last night on the local news, the talking head said the case was about "religious freedom" and I went into a fury, and, finally, mercifully, he shut off the teevee

[Bluenorthwest]

46. Anyone who has defended religious leaders who attack choice and LGBT equality

helped create this environment we live in.

[theHandpuppet]

53. +1000

[CrispyQ]

47. The idea that a corporation can have religious beliefs is staggering,

but then I would never have thought that money equals speech, either.

I feel like everyday we take another step backwards.

+1 & kick.

[Calista241]

49. Clarification

Someone told me earlier that hobby lobby wasn't trying to ban "the pill" (standard ongoing birth control medication), but was only protesting having to supply the "morning after pill."

Basically, they said preventing a pregnancy from starting was legit medical care, but that terminating a pregnancy, even one that's only a day old, was against their beliefs.

Is there any truth to this, or is it bullshit?

[Glitterati]

56. Just throw their own argument at the SC back at this person

You can bet your booty that it's about a great deal MORE then the morning after pill. Here is but ONE exchange by THEIR attorney at the Supreme Court:

Kagan's remarks might sound familiar to the legally-trained ear. In a 1990 majority opinion in Employment Division v. Smith, Scalia alluded to the same examples of what might happen if religious entities are permitted to claim exemptions from generally applicable laws. He warned that "[a]ny society adopting such a system would be courting anarchy."

"The rule respondents favor would open the prospect of constitutionally required religious exemptions from civic obligations of almost every conceivable kind," Scalia wrote in the 6-3 opinion, "ranging from compulsory military service, to the payment of taxes, to health and safety regulation such as manslaughter and child neglect laws, compulsory vaccination laws, drug laws, and traffic laws; to social welfare legislation such as minimum wage laws, child labor laws, animal cruelty laws, environmental protection laws, and laws providing for equality of opportunity for the races."

Indeed, Clement picked up on the reference.

"If you look at that parade of horribles -- Social Security, minimum wage, discrimination laws, compelled vaccination -- every item on that list was included in Justice Scalia's opinion for the Court in Smith," he said.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/elena-kagan-antonin-scalia-birth-control-mandate

(emphasis mine)

[Mariana]

70. A lot of these loons

fervently believe that ordinary birth control pills work by preventing implantation rather than by preventing ovulation. Some religious leaders have deliberately caused confusion by blurring the lines between true abortion-causing pills like RU-486, the morning after pill, and ordinary daily birth control pills, until many of their followers think they're all the same. Now you have people calling ordinary birth control pills "abortion pills" and believing that's what they are.

[JDPriestly]

107. Implantation does not occur immediately upon ferilization of the egg within the potential mother.

Fertilization

If one sperm does make its way into the Fallopian tube and burrow into the egg, it fertilizes the egg. The egg changes so that no other sperm can get in.

. . . . .

The egg stays in the Fallopian tube for about three to four days, but within 24 hours of being fertilized it starts dividing very fast into many cells. It keeps dividing as it moves slowly through the fallopian tube to the uterus. Its next job is to attach to the lining of uterus. This is called implantation.

. . . .
Within the first week, a hormone called human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) can be found in your blood. It's made by the cells that eventually become the placenta.

http://www.webmd.com/baby/guide/understanding-conception

If God hates abortions, whey did he make women so that we have so many miscarriages.

It is difficult to know exactly how many miscarriages take place because often a miscarriage occurs before the mother realises she is pregnant. However, it is estimated that approximately 20 percent of all pregnancies miscarry, with the majority (up to 85 percent) doing so in the first trimester (weeks 1 to 12) [2].
1 in 100 women will experience recurrent miscarriages (three or more successive miscarriages) [3].

http://www.tommys.org/page.aspx?pid=383

Some sources think the number of miscarriages in the very early weeks of pregnancy if higher than recognized. That's because some miscarriages take place before the woman has any idea that she is pregnant.

The whole thing about abortion is born of ignorance about sex in my view.

[mostlyconfused]

126. If that's correct, then it's a whole lot less offensive that was described to me

So they are not against contraception and are ok with paying for it as part of their healthcare plan.

They are opposed to the "morning after pill", abortion, anything they view as terminating a pregnancy, but they are not trying to prevent their employees from making any of those choices, they're just saying they don't want to pay for them when they do.

Is this correct?

[lostincalifornia]

51. Absolutely right on. It is a overt discrimination against women by trying to impose a corporations

religious beliefs as justification for discrimination

[get the red out]

55. I agree with you

There is no way I could despise Hobby Lobby more.

[mountain grammy]

60. Last time I shopped there was about 10 years ago.

NEVER AGAIN! I regret every dime I ever spent in that store.

[get the red out]

65. We just got one in my city

I will NEVER step foot in that place.

[Glitterati]

66. Same here

I won't give them a dime of my money. And, even though I only went there to buy fabric for sewing projects, my daughter spent a good deal there. She's an artist who buys lots of canvas, paints, brushes and assorted things to support her work. Not anymore. Not since they started their first case on this BS.

Not another dime from this house.

[joeglow3]

57. Their argument was that they are not prohibiting the use

They just don't want to pay for it. Which is why I think they may win. At a minimum, it is not the slam dunk I would like it to be.

[Glitterati]

61. I think you're wrong

But, we all know how this SC rules, don't we?

I think opening this door is simply a place the SC doesn't want to go. Based on the arguments and questions, there's a theory that they are going to try and carve out a religious exemption for "closely held" corporations. However, Walmart qualifies as a closely held corporation - owned by a majority of family members.

They just won't be able to find a loophole small enough that doesn't mean SC cases submitted by corporations regarding their religious convictions for the next 100 years.

[joeglow3]

80. That was my read as well

They want to rule in Hobby Lobby's favor, but are trying to find a way to justify it.

[Glitterati]

82. Yes, they are.

They're desperately searching for a loophole they can create that doesn't mean a gazillion new SC cases.

[mountain grammy]

62. Their argument is completely bogus, the very definition of a "frivolous lawsuit"

costing taxpayers millions.

[Glitterati]

64. Their argument

for a Corporate religion is anything BUT frivolous! If they win, it opens the gates of hell.

In Scalia's own words...."The rule respondents favor would open the prospect of constitutionally required religious exemptions from civic obligations of almost every conceivable kind," Scalia wrote in the 6-3 opinion, "ranging from compulsory military service, to the payment of taxes, to health and safety regulation such as manslaughter and child neglect laws, compulsory vaccination laws, drug laws, and traffic laws; to social welfare legislation such as minimum wage laws, child labor laws, animal cruelty laws, environmental protection laws, and laws providing for equality of opportunity for the races."

[mountain grammy]

71. I believe the case is silly and frivolous, but a HL win would be an unimaginable assault

on the first amendment.

[Glitterati]

73. It would be an unimaginable assault on the constitution

starting with the first and destroying every one after it.

The 14th Amendment would be demolished in its entirety.

[DirkGently]

74. Be nice if it really was "unimaginable." It should be.

But not with this Court. Not with Roberts and Alito believing corporations are not only people, but special, privileged people. Not with Scalia and his increasingly naked contempt for any notion of basic human dignity or equal treatment of anyone.

It shouldn't happen. It should be impossible. Unthinkable. But look at where we are. The closed abortion clinics. The gagging of doctors and the forced, invasive ultrasounds.

This bent notion of wielding "religious freedom" as a sword against the federal government, and as a "remedy" to undermine civil rights and protections in general, is absolutely nuts.

But this is America. We do crazy here. All the time.

We will see.

[Glitterati]

75. I agree, however

you have to pay attention that there wasn't a single amicus brief filed by a corporation in the US in support of Hobby Lobby.

Why?

Because, this case destroys the corporate shield. If corporations become the owner and his/her religious belief, that destroys the corporate shield that says you can sue a corporation, but the OWNERS remain shielded from the lawsuit.

Finding in favor of Hobby Lobby/Conestoga Wood drops the corporate veil which protects the owners of ANY corporation in the US. The law protecting individuals who own corporations against the behavior of the corporation is repealed by this case if they find for Hobby Lobby.

[closeupready]

59. Righteous rant! K&R

[RKP5637]

63. I've now switched to loathing religion. I just fucken hate it! For years I was neutral, but with

all of the bullshit anymore, I just see it as creepy, dangerous and degrading to humanity! A truly negative force in life, laced with cults of hatred, authoritarianism and persecution.

[Glitterati]

67. I was the same. Agnostic.

Not anymore.

[RKP5637]

76. So many now exhibit cult like behavior and hatred I view them as a threat to

society. Someone indicates they're religious and for me the red flags of caution go up.

[Glitterati]

78. They are.

It's that simple.

They are a direct threat to our lives - as evidenced by this case at its core.

But, let's talk a walk in the door Hobby Lobby is trying to open.....

I'll start going to church, become a convert to their way of thinking. But, MY Bible says the 7th day is a day of rest. So, I'm going to take my religious belief to court and demand that I can't be forced to work on Sundays. That gives any religious believer the right to refuse to work on Sunday. And, then Walmart can't find enough non-religious workers to open the store on Sunday.

But, YOU believe the 7th day is Saturday. So, you also take that to court. The court has to protect your religious liberties as well.

So, now, Walmart can't find enough workers to open the cash registers on Saturday OR Sunday.

Uh oh!

[RKP5637]

83. In essence, they are working to open the door IMO to alternative government and

laws based on their beliefs, as they strive for turning the US into a theocracy. Then, layered on this are conflicting religions, which is the chosen religion, the right one, the "normal" one, whatever. It is opening the door to one F'en mess. And then we have states trying to deny services, including medical, for example, to LGBT, because it offends their religion. ... and, how many other things might offend their religion.

I hope SCOTUS has the maturity and wisdom to deal with this, but I often have my doubts.

[Glitterati]

84. SCOTUS, maturity and wisdom

don't belong together in the same sentence.

We have a right wing, religious majority SCOTUS, whose members are incapable of separating their personal belief from law.

If they can create a carve out, they will. Of that, I am certain.

[mountain grammy]

68. Sadly, me too.

[AnnieBW]

124. Not ALL Religions Are Like That

I'm a Pagan. I believe in God as both male and female - God and Goddess. While I know that there are scientific explanations for everything in the Universe, I feel that there is a higher intelligence there, and it is happy when we discover something new. I would never, ever force my religion on anyone who didn't want it, and I expect the same respect for mine.

[kentuck]

69. Individual liberties vs corporate liberties

At its most basic level.

[WillyT]

72. HUGE K & R !!! - THANK YOU !!!

[polichick]

77. The big question: How far from "supreme" is our SC?

[Glitterati]

79. ROFL, I think that was answered with Bush v. Gore n/t

[polichick]

81. For me too, but I'm wondering how low they'll go...

and, more importantly, how much the American people will take.

[SunSeeker]

86. K & R

[BlancheSplanchnik]

90. pleased to be rec #111

Well said!

[Ohio Joe]

94. Very well said...

I have nothing else to add... K&R

[Initech]

95. This could potentially have far more damaging consequences than 10 Citizens Uniteds.

This could potentially destroy and unravel the first amendment as we know it. If you don't find this case horrifically offensive, you're not paying attention. Fuck Hobby Lobby!!!

[DebJ]

97. And don't use contraceptives when you do. Then they can deal with a rape baby. oh bad. n/t

[yardwork]

98. Righteous rant!

K n R

[Loki]

102. The only thing these corporate fascists understand is money.

I swear to make it my goal to put these religious fakers out of business. So to the Green family, corporate whores hiding behind a disgusting, dominionist religion, you and your cheap Made in China junk stores will end up in the trash heap and the sooner the better.

[The_Commonist]

103. There's only one thing I need to know about this case.

One simple bit of information, that shows simply and convincingly that the people who own Hobby Lobby are bunch of fucking hypocrites. One thing, that I'm sure someone else has pointed out, but that I don't have time to sift through all the replies on this thread. Here it is:

Hobby Lobby buys the vast bulk of its product from China. The (rightly) biggest "family-planning nation" on the planet. Have they checked with every factory in China that they buy stuff from to make sure that those factory owners are not "encouraging" their workers to get abortions, as we've heard about in other cases? Or that those factory workers aren't taking some sort of contraceptive?

Of course they haven't. Because they don't give a damn.

This has nothing to do with their "religious beliefs." It's nothing but greed, and they should be roundly and thoroughly rebuked for wasting the court's time with this crap. And then the boycott should be so thorough that they are forced to go out of business, because nobody should ever do business with hypocrites of this degree.

[world wide wally]

105. I didn't realize that corporations were "religious" people

[JDPriestly]

106. I think that if the Supreme Court decides in favor of Hobby Lobby, a lot of men will find

themselves sleeping alone at night.

Women have one weapon. It's been used before. A movement that says no sex without free birth control for all would be very effective even if only carried out by a minority of the women in our country. Exceptions could be made for couples who are trying to have a baby. And of course, a lot of women would not participate.

But if we organized that, we women would be able to end this constant pressure about birth control.

After my second child, I was told that I should never have another and that if I did, neither I nor the child would be likely to make it through the pregnancy alive.

For a bunch of old, half-senile, very self-centered men to tell employers that they can meddle in their employees' healthcare by refusing to pay for insurance that covers birth control is evil. That's the real evil.

I'm grateful for birth control because it allowed me to remain in good enough health to live to raise my two children. Thank God for birth control.

All women should have access to free birth control.

[MadrasT]

129. If there were no birth control, I would have no problem

never having sex with a man again.

There are other ways to obtain sexual pleasure that don't involve putting your life on the line.

I can't get pregnant anymore but I would go on strike to support my sisters.

[Trust Buster]

108. Corporations want to wear two hats at the same time

They want to wear their corporate hat when it comes to preferential tax treatment and shielding their personal assets from legal liability. Then they want to wear their personhood hat when the corporate hat doesn't fit just right. If they are allowed to do this, then we should be allowed to do this. Otherwise, it's blatant discrimination against us.

[TexasBushwhacker]

109. What's really ridiculous is that the vast majority of their employees are female

spending all day on their feet, working for retail wages (ie. jack shit). It's likely they don't get much in terms of benefits like sick and/or maternity leave. So if anyone needs to use birth control, frankly it's a Hobby Lobby employee!

[NC_Nurse]

110. I agree completely. These controlling assholes need to get over themselves.

[handmade34]

112. ...

https://www.facebook.com/HobbyLobbyBoycott












http://www.auntpeaches.com/2012/09/why-i-will-not-be-shopping-at-hobby.html

[mountain grammy]

131. Thanks for the link to Aunt Peaches. Will be recommending her to my crafter friends.

And no more Viagra. Impotence is God's will.

As for preventing abortion, that's a no brainer. Better access to health care and education, such a simple solution, but, somehow, out of reach because freedom, or something.

[pragmatic_dem]

113. The rich are using their wealth to legislate in their favor - they will always

be able to afford their abortions and their birth control, legal or not. This is about oppressing public citizens, we are ultimately the enemy of the rich, a razor thin defense between the rich and their complete unchecked access to every level of our government.

It is full on class warfare, and, in case you are wondering, we are being slaughtered by the rich.

[TxDemChem]

115. You tell 'em!

The shit is ridiculous.

[sulphurdunn]

116. Once, it was settled law

that the interests of society were best served protecting the civil liberties of everyone rather than legalizing the rights of individuals to discriminate and oppress others in the name of their personal convictions, religious or otherwise. If the supreme court proffers some legal sophistry to alter that precedent, after so many of the decisions it has already rendered, then we will know for sure what we are up against and should act accordingly.

[Hosnon]

117. Ditto. I will be sick if they win.

It will mark a very dark turn in our history.

[geretogo]

118. It's all about destroying Obama ,the ACA ,and democratic government.The're devils from the dark ages

[Initech]

135. And they'll literally destroy the constitution to destroy Obama.

Which is exactly what this lawsuit is designed to do. If SCOTUS sides in favor of Hobby Lobby you can bet the scumbag CEOs will somehow try to blame Obama for the loss of separation of church and state.

[AnnieBW]

121. If An Employer is a Scientologist

they would be allowed to be exempt from paying for any type of antidepressant or other psychiatric medication, and they probably would not pay for any mental health care outside of their own "treatments".

For those people scoffing at "pork products" in medicine, you're talking things like insulin and pig heart valves (often used in human heart valve replacements). So... a Jewish or Muslim employer can refuse to pay for pig insulin for diabetics.

[CBHagman]

127. That the Hobby Lobby founders care more about a fertilized egg...

...than a living, breathing Chinese man or woman tells me all I need to know.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

128. Please, go to a real art supply store.

www.dickblick.com ONLINE

www.texasartsupply.com Also online.

[myrna minx]

132. K&R!