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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsI trust Native Americans to know what is bad for my environment ...
Last edited Thu Mar 27, 2014, 07:55 PM - Edit history (1)
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Aerows
(39,961 posts)polichick
(37,152 posts)the way Native Americans traditionally do?
MindMover
(5,016 posts)stand on to be unparalleled with anyone I have ever met...
polichick
(37,152 posts)standing on the banks of a badly polluted river when I was about four years old. I cried uncontrollably, feeling completely heartbroken.
After a few experiences like this over the years I started to read about "genetic memory" - and concluded that we can inherit more than blood and bone.
I got involved with politics and the Democratic Party with the first Earth Day because of those "memories." imo our leaders would be smart to listen to Native Americans about our continued survival on this planet.
Thanks for the thread!
MindMover
(5,016 posts)polichick
(37,152 posts)DustyJoe
(849 posts)Maybe the older natives still see environmental issues as they did in younger days.
But ...
In my many travels through the 4-corners area multiple tribal areas over the past 40 years living in the area. On the Navajo and Ute reservations, the backwater areas can be as blighted as any non-native area. Open sewage, open dumpsites, abandoned buildings, vehicles galore. Not to mean that they don't want pristene conditions as in the past, but seem to be as neglectful as non-natives in policing their own closed environments. Tribal laws if any regarding blight seems not to be regulated or enforced as closely as non-tribal zoning and environmental laws.
KT2000
(20,581 posts)and you will see the tribes involved in environmental restoration projects that have saved our little corner of the world. This area is an example of tribes saving a community.
Capt.Rocky300
(1,005 posts)the local tribe has clearcut large tracts on the reservation, left the slash and not replanted. Not what I'd call environmentally friendly.
KT2000
(20,581 posts)What I am talking about is on the Olympic Peninsula.
Capt.Rocky300
(1,005 posts)KT2000
(20,581 posts)I guess I should be more specific as it is our local S'Klallam tribe in Sequim, Port Gamble and Port Angeles, especially the Sequim Jamestown. They are restoring the Elwha and Dungeness Rivers as well as some creeks and the bay at Port Gamble. They opened a large medical clinic that serves everyone and they take on Medicaid patients where other clinics will not. They have set up several businesses to assure employment for the tribe members and others - they are actually the second largest employer here, behind the hospital. They are front and center in protection of salmon.
Their many buildings are beautiful and artistic as opposed to the big box and hastily built metal structures that are going up.
They have a tribal leader, Ron Allen, who is a business genius in my opinion.
http://www.jamestowntribe.org/
Capt.Rocky300
(1,005 posts)on the restoration projects with great interest. Hats off to them for all they have done. Hopefully our local tribes on this side of the Sound will take a lesson from their brothers on your side.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The clearcuts left by the Quinault Indian Nation are the worst I've ever seen.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)hopeless, helpless feeling generated by an American society that cares little about who or what they represent ...
and I want to add that Native Americans have little respect for what American society holds important, ie: possessions, stuff, meaningless shit
slumcamper
(1,606 posts)Euro-American conception of "civilization" on them failed. While such efforts certainly inflicted great harm, they failed to destroy the essence of the earth-spirit that resonates in the words of Faith Spotted Eagle. The excessive private consumption and materialism that our economy feeds on is rejected; things will turn to dust. Spirit endures.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Habit of altering our clocks (Spring ahead, fall behind.)
"Only the white man thinks that by cutting off the top of a blanket and sewing it to the bottom of the blanket, that he now has a longer blanket!"
Kali
(55,009 posts)yet the Navajo Nation does.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I'd imagine that's due more to a regional poverty coerced in part by early development, the Dawes Act era, and contemporary policy rather than by mere age...
G_j
(40,367 posts)Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)What the Utes and Navajoes have done pales in comparison.
New guy, huh?
DustyJoe
(849 posts)Yep, 6 years new. A low post count sometimes doesn't indicate time on the site. For me personally I try to post on topics I have personal knowledge or experience with. As I attempted to point out, for the Navajo especially. Tribal elders always have and still seem to hold a great reverence for land and life, while the current generations, not so much. Much to the dismay of the elders.
Rockyj
(538 posts)Last edited Wed Mar 26, 2014, 11:48 PM - Edit history (1)
on my reservation in Oregon, and on most reservations. Old vehicles, appliances left outside etc., has more to do with not caring about white man ways such as; manicured lawns, planting flowers & bushes, etc.
Cofitachequi
(112 posts)I do environmental permitting, and the tribes can be as callous and unwilling to do the right thing in regards to wetland and resource managment as any greedy corportation. I was blown away when I got a hard time for trying to protect archaelogical sites from destruction on Indian land!!!!
Stargazer99
(2,585 posts)KT2000
(20,581 posts)The geologists for tribes in the area of the Washington mudslide warned of the possibility of a catastrophic slide years ago.
In the area where I live, the tribes are the ones that care about the environment. Since they are sovereign, they have great weight in negotiations with federal, state, county, and city governments. Their biologists, geologists are actually telling the truth whereas many consultants for government agencies are trying to deliver what the powers that be want to hear.
The tribes are saving us all.
love_katz
(2,579 posts)And, we know who funds the political campaigns of those who do not wish to listen to what traditional tribal people are saying, or try to minimize it.
Cofitachequi
(112 posts)I do environmental permitting, and the tribes can be as callous and unwilling to do the right thing in regards to wetland and resource managment as any greedy corportation. I was blown away when I got a hard time for trying to protect archaelogical sites from destruction on Indian land!!!!
MindMover
(5,016 posts)Cofitachequi
(112 posts)I've been very pleased in that projects where the Cherokees had a regulatory role on projects where they were not the developers, they have been very easy to work with and very demanding about the quality of work, but at the same time, on projects where they were the developers and had to answer to the same processes, they fought tooth and n ail to try to short shrift the process. I was very surprised.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)"on projects where they were the developers and had to answer to the same processes, they fought tooth and n ail to try to short shrift the process. I was very surprised."
Please turn on the news and understand where the internal politics of this nation lie .... in bizzarro world ....
CountAllVotes
(20,875 posts)As someone with roots in these same areas, I know what my people are like. They are tough, resilient and most certainly not to be underestimated.
The Cherokee had their own government that worked quite well long before the white man arrived and stole their lands and just about everything else they had.
Thomas Jefferson ... thanks for nothing. *oink*
WatermelonRat
(340 posts)they don't necessarily have authoritative knowledge on the subject by virtue of being Native American. A great many people of all races have come to the conclusion that this pipeline is bad news.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)cstanleytech
(26,293 posts)a persons race does not have any bearing on their knowledge of whats "right" or "wrong" with any subject be it environmental or any other item.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)and I am sure that African Americans can tell you something about what is right or wrong in America ...
If you knew what you were typing before trying to just be divisive in this thread then I might listen to you ... but you really do not know what you type ...
cstanleytech
(26,293 posts)their race.
If that was the case the BS the KKK spews about whites being superior to other races would be true.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)I think my African American friends know more about discrimination than my lily white ass knows ...
and my Native American friends can tell you a few stories about discrimination and desecration and desperation ... and that is just words starting with d
Moonwalk
(2,322 posts)...of your skin color. Meaning people react to you, personally, on basis of ethnicity. Typically, your looks. I'm sure you could say that every friend you have who is overweight knows more about discrimination than all the naturally thin people you know, too.
But whether you are an environmentalist or not often is about your upbringing and culture and many cultures of many races as well as many private individuals have raised their children to hold the environment as sacred. One can be raised to feel this way no matter what one's race. Or would you argue that a white child raised by Native Americans who held the environment as sacred would somehow not "get it" and grow up to be a natural polluter, while the child who was genetically Native American would?
Saying that Native Americans are inherently knowledgable about environmentalism because of their race gets you into the old "noble savage" territory. Do we really want to go there?
MindMover
(5,016 posts)Last edited Thu Mar 27, 2014, 03:10 PM - Edit history (1)
I will humor you and acknowledge that you do not want to understand what my original post is about and that you are just hunkering down for a fight. So here ya go, feast on this ....
Have you ever contemplated what instincts truly are, if not the cliff notes of the accumulated knowledge which stems from the experiences of the consciousnesses that have preceded you?
Are instincts not inherent knowledge?
And if they are inherent knowledge from the consciousnesses that have preceded us, somewhere within us may be the inherent knowledge of the singularity, the consciousness from which we all originate.
I dont need to ponder how much of that inherent knowledge is dormant, hidden, tucked away in many, because they need to influence the world to know they exist.
Curious enough, the observer is intangible. How real can reality be when the self that is determining it to be real is itself intangible?
cstanleytech
(26,293 posts)because they are racist assholes.
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)is the same as calling all African Americans anti-Semites because of Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam. Don't try to revile or praise a whole group of people due to the actions of a few.
cstanleytech
(26,293 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)and Asians know a lot about laundry and laying railroad track.
And for those who can't figure it out
Scuba
(53,475 posts)Same is true of the Geobic mine plan in Wisconsin.
unionthug777
(740 posts)there would be no mine. let's hope so. even though i am from Lac Du Flambeau, i think the mine will destroy the area. imho.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Gore1FL
(21,132 posts)In this case, the Native American in this graphic appears to agree.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)with the earth than the vast majority of us...knr
MindMover
(5,016 posts)polichick
(37,152 posts)homegirl
(1,429 posts)In my county Native American tribes have built the largest casino/convention center/hotel in the district, directly on the watershed. Sensitive to the environment, healthy living, I doubt it.
Some people are living in a dream world.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)in other words the only land they have to survive ...
Although, I like the picture in my mind about a roomful of Native Americans sitting around discussing how they will provide for there families and one says, let us sell the white man what they sold us, beads and trinkets for your land and treasures. We will give you what you seem to want, a chance for more beads and trinkets for your treasures ... brilliant, really ...brilliant .... and talk about Karma ... that is some Karma.
NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)Many NA tribes have historically done plenty of damage to the environment, particularly through hunting and deforestation (hundreds of years before Europeans arrived). Every culture is a mix of good and bad people and practices.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)I agree with "Every culture is a mix of good and bad people and practices."
NYC Liberal
(20,136 posts)https://www.baylor.edu/mediacommunications/news.php?action=story&story=90379
http://smithsonianscience.org/2011/05/native-americans-were-changing-environment-in-north-america-long-before-european-settlers-arrived/
Like I said - a mix of good and bad. And most important: you can't generalize to ALL Native American tribes. Each tribe was very different from the next.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)but when you have to live off the land, you have respect for that land ...
I can generalize in saying they lived off the land ... and had/have respect for the land.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)uppityperson
(115,677 posts)MindMover
(5,016 posts)yawnmaster
(2,812 posts)MindMover
(5,016 posts)yawnmaster
(2,812 posts)it is the Foxwoods Resort Casino in Ledyard, Connecticut and operated by the Mashantucket Pequot Tribe.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)and this thread is not about casino/resorts ...
Although, I like the picture in my mind about a roomful of Native Americans sitting around discussing how they will provide for there families and one says, let us sell the white man what they sold us, beads and trinkets for your land and treasures. We will give you what you seem to want, a chance for more beads and trinkets for your treasures ... brilliant, really ...brilliant .... and talk about Karma ... that is some Karma.
This thread is about a Native American innate knowledge about our environment ....
If you have a bone to pick about the ownership or the environmental impact of casinos/resorts by N.A. then I would suggest you take it up with the Federal Government ...
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)REALLY.
yawnmaster
(2,812 posts)MindMover
(5,016 posts)unfortunately, you have made yourself perfectly unintelligible ...
yawnmaster
(2,812 posts)reflexes on how to grip, suck, and avoid falling (and similar simple reflexes).
To say that a group of humans (such as Native Americans) somehow have an innate knowledge of the environment is romantic thinking at best, and more likely just propaganda.
The environmental knowledge you mention is learned. It is not innate.
Look at the background of an individual not their genetics to determine if they should be trusted for a given subject.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Humans aren't born with "innate knowledge" about things beyond basic reflexes.
Brickbat
(19,339 posts)Because survival and federal government and it doesn't match the OP' narrative, you big meanie.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Sorry, but being Native American doesn't make you more environmentally or spiritually enlightened. It might (and should) make you more skeptical of government BS, but that's about it.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)Throd
(7,208 posts)Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)MindMover
(5,016 posts)WillyT
(72,631 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)But y'know. Whatever gets the point across, I guess.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Check your privilege.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)romantic languages ...
Kaleva
(36,307 posts)There's a descriptive word for those who attribute characteristics, either positive or negative, to a race or nationality.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)MindMover
(5,016 posts)Another ignore .. this is a record for me ...
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)MindMover
(5,016 posts)Any other race ...
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)I would agree with what I know, but do not claim to be an expert. Oh and I consider fracking to be a form of legalized terrorism.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)You post your comments on DU and you have posted 72000 and change ...
lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)MindMover
(5,016 posts)lonestarnot
(77,097 posts)hue
(4,949 posts)ffr
(22,670 posts)We taught they were simple people who didn't know there was a better way of doing things, the European anglo way of doing things.
Now, even before this graphic, I'm seeing they were right all along and we have it totally wrong.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)malthaussen
(17,200 posts)When you come full circle, you will recognize that the indigenous peoples have flaws you hadn't considered previously. The way to wisdom is not to categorize whole populations based on incomplete knowledge.
-- Mal
MindMover
(5,016 posts)ffr
(22,670 posts)dilby
(2,273 posts)I trust people based on logic not superstition and romantic fiction.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)and I do not understand your comment about their feelings towards the Federal Government ...
Our government has broken thousands of treaties and would suggest you learn more about Native Americans ...
http://broken-treaties-opportunity-race.tumblr.com/
http://www.aimovement.org/ggc/trailofbrokentreaties.html
http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0700/frameset_reset.html?http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0700/stories/0701_0141.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Broken_Treaties
http://blog.nrcprograms.org/treaties-made-treaties-broken/
dilby
(2,273 posts)MindMover
(5,016 posts)Your point is based on a person, because they have been wronged by government, taking revenge on the government by opposing a private corporations raping our land for profit and further destruction of our planet earth.
I would suggest you go back to my last post and start reading ...
dilby
(2,273 posts)Nor based on what you perceive as the groups belief. The idea that someone is more knowledgeable about government or the environment based on their race is ridiculous. What the person said was right, giving them special credit based on their race was not.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Simply being a NA doesn't make one more in tune with the environment.
That's tantamount to "Asians are better at math" and "women are better caregivers" just by nature of being Asian or female. Positive stereotypes are still stereotypes.
DavidDvorkin
(19,479 posts)AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Well, I trust people schooled in environmental sciences....regardless of where their ancestors came from.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)your enlightened input ...
Butt, I do want to remind you that several reports from the scientific community used by our state department have been used to support Keystone and most probably will be used again ... so what is your comment about those reports ...?
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)...... to know that a Mississippi River of toxic sludge in a pipe is a baaaaaaaad idea.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)"It doesn't take a report to know that a Mississippi River of toxic sludge in a pipe is a baaaaaaaaad idea."
That should be your bumper sticker...
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)My post about trusting or not trusting someone just because of their ancestry was also true and logical.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)I trust that the Jewish people know persecution.
I trust that African Americans know discrimination.
I trust that Native Americans know what is bad for our environment.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Aaaaaaand....who said I did.
I don't trust huge generalizations based on stereotypes.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)It was clearcut four years ago, left like this, and never replanted.
If it were not part of the sovereign Quinault Indian Nation, state laws would have required better treatment and conscientious forest practices.
Your trust is misplaced.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)"MANUFACTURING
The tribe operates two small mills which manufacture cedar shake shingles and cedar fences. Between 10 and 20 tribal members are employed in these ventures."
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)collection of cedar blocks is wasteful and disruptive in its own way, but isn't responsible for this mess.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)this is a member that wants his land clear cut ... ?
I have neighbors that park there RVs, boats, trailers, old autos, broken buildings, and many other unsightly stuff all over ....
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I understood that this tribal land was owned in common. I could be wrong, but it's not relevant to the issue. The forest practices rules of the Quinault Indian Nation (if there are any) didn't prevent this example of really gross forest practices negligence.
http://www.dnr.wa.gov/BusinessPermits/Topics/ForestPracticesRules/Pages/fp_rules.aspx
MindMover
(5,016 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I'm only this familiar with it because I drive through it on the logging access road frequently and have been watching their lack of reforestation progress. I am told that it is representative. It is distinctly unlike the clear cuts in the national forest nearby.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)down from the original treaty stating they owned 688,000 acres and that most if not all the clear cutting is due to corporations ...
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Which is okay because at least "the corporations" they sold to are subject to Washington forest practices rules.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)and many tribal members have sold their lands for pennies ....
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The lands they "sold for pennies" are managed in a more environmentally conscientious way than (at least this one) that they kept. It calls into question the biased view that native americans should inherently be trusted in that regard.
The people who decided how to manage this clear cut should not, in any way, be trusted.
mr blur
(7,753 posts)CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)Are they spiritual? Do they all have visions? Oh tell us about our great brothers and how monolithic they are. Did you go in a sweatlodge and have a vision of it all?
The shit people say about native americans is kind of getting old. Racist stereotypes have no value in this century.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)eShirl
(18,494 posts)how many points for the right answer?
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Stereotypes that seem nice are still limiting
http://red-face.us
MindMover
(5,016 posts)of course you know that ... and just want to encourage the fighting ...
and you limit your intelligence by using such inflammatory allegories ...
gollygee
(22,336 posts)Look down to "Noble Savage stereotype"
Or google "Noble Savage stereotype"
It being a stereotype that tries to be nice doesn't make it less limiting or OK.
Response to CBGLuthier (Reply #107)
gollygee This message was self-deleted by its author.
mathematic
(1,439 posts)Gosh, that sure sounds bad when I say it like that. I wonder why.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)mathematic
(1,439 posts)I hope that is now obvious.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)you are not sensible ... bye
mathematic
(1,439 posts)What's the point of thinking Native Americans are inherently environmentalists and knowledgeable on environmental science if you can't trot them out to support your political positions when it's convenient?
yawnmaster
(2,812 posts)yawnmaster
(2,812 posts)Humans generally behave like humans. In general, they protect their immediate environment and their offspring.
How they do this can be cultural and it changes based on the local environment ("local" size can change).
Here the Pequot tribe (and of course a number of other tribes) are using the casino laws to help ensure that their tribe survives and thrives. In some cases environmental causes ensure the same thing.
Sometimes "race" can be used to make a point or strengthen an argument, and sometimes for propaganda.
This is not to say in the OP above that the Yankton Sioux are being disingenuous, as I suspect they are not, but one cannot take that one position and logically expand it to all Native Americans.
Throd
(7,208 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)I'm not sure what's worse, racist stereotyping or the fact that so many people agree with it.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)and all of your race baiting comments will not alter that belief...
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)MindMover
(5,016 posts)I am attributing a trait to a race which I know exists ...
.
You are race baiting ...
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)helpful hint: if 20 different people tell you that what you've just said is racist? It's probably racist.
MindMover
(5,016 posts)rac·ism [rey-siz-uhm]
noun
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
yawnmaster
(2,812 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Believing that Native Americans have some innate sense of attunement with the environment is just as much an expression of racist belief as believing that Asians are inherently better at math, or that Jews are "good with money", or that the Irish have a sense of humour. It's ascribing a characteristic on the basis of membership in a racial/ethnic group. That is racism by definition.
yawnmaster
(2,812 posts)Foxwood Casino
treestar
(82,383 posts)It is racist, not respectful.
Kali
(55,009 posts)they are human beings like everyone else. some are assholes and some near-saints, most are regular people just like you or me. NA "culture" is not a single entity either. There is great variation.
Fake adulation is as insulting as hostile racism to a lot of indigenous people.