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Video of Zimmerman on police camera the night of the shooting. (Original Post) Fawke Em Mar 2012 OP
Possibly related to the fact Riftaxe Mar 2012 #1
But wouldn't a gash still be present? Fawke Em Mar 2012 #3
Mine bled hard the first time, at the very least it probably should be swollen or out of place ..the polly7 Mar 2012 #9
The head and face bleed a LOT USArmyParatrooper Mar 2012 #43
Yes, they do, as I found out with the ambulance. polly7 Mar 2012 #47
I work in a Level One ER. This man is not injured, I agree. K Gardner Mar 2012 #166
Maybe the blood was cleaned up, where is Trayvon's blood? Kurska Mar 2012 #182
Maybe he didn't shoot Trayvon at close range. yardwork Mar 2012 #189
When I broke my nose it didn't bleed at all TorchTheWitch Mar 2012 #87
The police report said that Zimmerman had a bloody nose and mouth. bluestate10 Mar 2012 #95
but im sure it was swollen, at the very least got root Mar 2012 #111
why would it be? TorchTheWitch Mar 2012 #140
You're right about all of that. polly7 Mar 2012 #144
well, I DO see something on the back of his head TorchTheWitch Mar 2012 #178
if someone was in a fight for their very life, enough to suffer a BROKEN NOSE, and had been bleeding got root Mar 2012 #149
what is it that you aren't getting here? TorchTheWitch Mar 2012 #181
the police report said he was, so someone is lying got root Mar 2012 #185
IMO Mr Dixon Mar 2012 #191
One witness said the "guy on top" was wearing a white t-shirt. hisownpetard Mar 2012 #171
Back Of The Head DallasNE Mar 2012 #154
I broke mine. It bled for a long time too, and I had gashes on my upper lip. My JDPriestly Mar 2012 #175
And I saw no blood on his shirt. That may have been what they were looking at his jacket for. jwirr Mar 2012 #193
And had his shirt washed? Dead_Parrot Mar 2012 #34
Exactly, not just a bloody nose, a broken nose. Incitatus Mar 2012 #71
No sign of any treatment. His shaved head is clean. No blood, no wounds, no bandages. yardwork Mar 2012 #89
treated mbuch64 Mar 2012 #105
if he was treated, the cops would have gloves on grasswire Mar 2012 #119
Yes, there would have been. nt. polly7 Mar 2012 #161
They must have gotten to Zimmerman pretty fast with that "treatment" ... 99th_Monkey Mar 2012 #180
it's not that grainy... spanone Mar 2012 #2
linky CatWoman Mar 2012 #38
ABC put a banner in the video obscuring the back of his head..... Evasporque Mar 2012 #192
For those who have Current TV Fawke Em Mar 2012 #4
I don't see anything either. polly7 Mar 2012 #5
And a head gash bleeds like crazy. Even a little one. alphafemale Mar 2012 #17
Yes, head wounds bleed and bleed. polly7 Mar 2012 #22
Yep, wrestlers will create a teeny tiny cut in their head arcane1 Mar 2012 #55
gash, shit, i nick my head shaving and its a bleedathon! dionysus Mar 2012 #104
Also, there's something obviously missing. Fuddnik Mar 2012 #116
I notice George has the same haircut as his buddies, the cops. yardwork Mar 2012 #122
There's no surprise, as he's a cop wannabe. gkhouston Mar 2012 #141
I have a ginormous monitor on my Mac. I think the back of his head looks banged up a bit. slackmaster Mar 2012 #6
It always looks a bit unclean. That man has not been beaten. eom leveymg Mar 2012 #12
I see some "grunge," which may be hair growing in or debris, Fawke Em Mar 2012 #16
those are probably marks from a forceps delivery... stlsaxman Mar 2012 #19
I can't see anything either way on my pathetic HP laptop screen. nt Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #23
I'm looking on a 73" Mitsubishi DLP screen. mbperrin Mar 2012 #65
I think I see a little bit of something on the back of his head TorchTheWitch Mar 2012 #90
A head wound bleeds out. I have had one small one. bluestate10 Mar 2012 #102
Then post a blown up screen shot of his head! Logical Mar 2012 #93
I don't believe the resolution in the video is high enough to tell. I'll wait for the police photos. slackmaster Mar 2012 #190
I hope you are right! Seems like they would have! Logical Mar 2012 #201
me too... but i ain't seeing what you're seeing got root Mar 2012 #113
I don't see any fucking blood CatWoman Mar 2012 #7
+1000 mfcorey1 Mar 2012 #15
That says it all. yardwork Mar 2012 #103
I'm sure they have a courtesy "powder your nose" kit in the back of the squad car deutsey Mar 2012 #151
5th Rec. Not a scratch or a speck of remorse. Cops very casual with him - BFFEs. Front page this. leveymg Mar 2012 #8
Nice catch.... OhioChick Mar 2012 #10
THAT does NOT look like a man who'd just been in a fight to the death requiring lethal force. nt TeamsterDem Mar 2012 #11
Of course that is not the legal standard, but you knew that ProgressiveProfessor Mar 2012 #37
Um, the legal standard is indeed to fear for one's life or "great bodily harm" TeamsterDem Mar 2012 #85
The problem is that untrained people who get their bell rung often think they have been injured ProgressiveProfessor Mar 2012 #157
I think you're misreading the law in 2 important ways TeamsterDem Mar 2012 #172
Actually we are in agreement on some of this ProgressiveProfessor Mar 2012 #173
What I guess I don't understand is why you seem to choose to ignore TeamsterDem Mar 2012 #176
For a self defense argument to work, all the elements have to lineup ProgressiveProfessor Mar 2012 #198
No, I am focusing on the entire thing, not just one part TeamsterDem Mar 2012 #199
I'm comparing the video to what Zimmerman's attorneys said, and it doesn't match. yardwork Mar 2012 #96
Its the kind of evidence we have all been waiting for...now if only the SA would arrest him ProgressiveProfessor Mar 2012 #158
Yup. He looks ok to my untrained eye. PotatoChip Mar 2012 #13
Maybe the police stopped by Zimm's house dmkinsey Mar 2012 #146
....and left that out of their reports. Because all suspects get to change clothes first, right? yardwork Mar 2012 #164
WOW... he flat out lied... gee, are we surprised fascisthunter Mar 2012 #14
What clothing did that cop throw in the trunk of the car? n/t malaise Mar 2012 #18
His jacket alfredo Mar 2012 #25
Looks like a protective vest. (aka "bulletproof vest") n/t X_Digger Mar 2012 #27
He looks pretty fit for someone who was just in a life and death struggle. Glimmer of Hope Mar 2012 #20
That can't be the right video. Where is the short, fat, white guy? Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #21
His "maybe friend or acquaintance or co-worker" Joe What-his-name Fawke Em Mar 2012 #29
Yeah, he won't be playing for the NBA anytime soon, but he looks like a totally different guy Snake Alchemist Mar 2012 #33
He doesn't look like he's been in a fight notadmblnd Mar 2012 #24
There was *something* on his back.. X_Digger Mar 2012 #30
Yeah, I was struck by the casual body language, too. n/t intheflow Mar 2012 #35
Anyone who has had a badly bleeding nose even without being... Spazito Mar 2012 #26
True. I used to get bloody noses from sinus infections Fawke Em Mar 2012 #28
Me too, Fawke Em. I used to get bloody noses at least 5 days a week. Messy, messy!! Ecumenist Mar 2012 #170
and the police KNEW he lied. spanone Mar 2012 #32
It certainly seems to becoming much clearer that the DA has a lot of.... Spazito Mar 2012 #42
I would say the police released this video to back up their statements Fawke Em Mar 2012 #66
I wonder if this could be a 'war' of leaks... Spazito Mar 2012 #86
Yep.. that's why I think someone at the department leaked it in Fawke Em Mar 2012 #88
It had to be somebody at the station who leaked it, right? yardwork Mar 2012 #107
Usually those tapes are kept in case their subpeonaed. Fawke Em Mar 2012 #110
Lawrence O'Donnell just interviewed the ABC reporter who got the video and... Spazito Mar 2012 #148
He's a valuable snitch to somebody is all I can think. mbperrin Mar 2012 #167
That is where my thoughts went as well... Spazito Mar 2012 #195
Could be why the police wanted a manslaughter warrant against him. uppityperson Mar 2012 #134
doesn't look like there's much blood on his body either Bluerthanblue Mar 2012 #31
looks fine to me. barbtries Mar 2012 #36
interesting...who videotaped this? it's not a static camera, it follows them as they walk. spanone Mar 2012 #39
It's a motion-led surveillance camera. Fawke Em Mar 2012 #70
Anything's possible, but if that dude was punched square in the nose hard enough to knock alcibiades_mystery Mar 2012 #40
He must have been hurt only on the inside MrScorpio Mar 2012 #41
I had a clear picture and there was no evidence of anything wet on the front shraby Mar 2012 #44
here's the link, Shraby CatWoman Mar 2012 #45
Clear enough. No injury to him and he's not upset. Notice the cuff, though. freshwest Mar 2012 #46
Cuffs mandatory. He knew his way inside, cops didn't have to lead him. He knew that place well leveymg Mar 2012 #53
Can't tell, but it seemed very relaxed, huh? Just another day... freshwest Mar 2012 #58
Almost apologetic. The arresting officers to Zimmerman, I mean. leveymg Mar 2012 #64
I'll bet he's been on a lot of ride-alongs. yardwork Mar 2012 #109
If the roles had been reversed, and George was dead and Trayvon at the police station, beyurslf Mar 2012 #48
If It Had Been Trayvon with the Gun and the White Judges Son Lying Dead on the Street AndyTiedye Mar 2012 #162
i've always had the strangest feeling Algebra Palin Mar 2012 #49
Any lawyer who lies that Zimmerman had broken nose & lacerations to head should be DIS-BARRED. Faryn Balyncd Mar 2012 #50
Not just disbarred, they should be criminally charged with accessory to murder Bjorn Against Mar 2012 #77
Match this with the 911 call a few minutes earlier.. SamG Mar 2012 #51
that it's self Maine-ah Mar 2012 #121
well, if thats him... i would have arrested him, too... not buying his 'self defense' story... got root Mar 2012 #52
OMG that f**kin liar! workinclasszero Mar 2012 #54
Too bad there's no charge for lying your ass off on teevee. freshwest Mar 2012 #79
It was raining out.. Shouldn't his clothes be messed up and dirty? ThomThom Mar 2012 #56
That's right, some of the RW claim he tried to give the kid CPR or whatever. freshwest Mar 2012 #81
Broken nose? The Midway Rebel Mar 2012 #57
They need to start talking about his dad being retired judge marlakay Mar 2012 #59
And the prosecutor who let him off, again. leveymg Mar 2012 #63
Paramedics probably were washing Trayvon's blood from Zimmerman itsrobert Mar 2012 #60
Back splatter. Fawke Em Mar 2012 #62
Ed Shultz is playing it over and over malaise Mar 2012 #61
So is Olbermann. Fawke Em Mar 2012 #68
I wish Olbermann was on my cable list malaise Mar 2012 #82
Per Zimmerman thru Oliver Iliyah Mar 2012 #67
If Zimmerman was seriously injured nadinbrzezinski Mar 2012 #69
Me, too. Fawke Em Mar 2012 #72
Former medic nadinbrzezinski Mar 2012 #78
That is a man with no injuries whatsoever. None. TahitiNut Mar 2012 #97
Well, I expect to see some more creative writing from John nadinbrzezinski Mar 2012 #106
Oliver is a psycho. TahitiNut Mar 2012 #120
Or his mother is the mother in law nadinbrzezinski Mar 2012 #123
Ahhh.... puzzle pieces that fit. TahitiNut Mar 2012 #155
There is a reason CNN fired him. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2012 #196
He's Zimmerman's brother? Really? Spider Jerusalem Mar 2012 #187
Olivers wife is supppsedly a friend of Zimmys MIL. HooptieWagon Mar 2012 #194
I've decided that Oliver is not being paid. Nobody would pay for that script. yardwork Mar 2012 #125
Yeah. He is a few Crayolas short of a full box. TahitiNut Mar 2012 #156
I read "not the hottest burner on the stove" here earlier this evening. Another good one. yardwork Mar 2012 #165
+1 yardwork Mar 2012 #112
cop was looking at the back of his head Enrique Mar 2012 #73
If there was blood on his clothes fifthoffive Mar 2012 #74
My thoughts also since the PD has tried to paint Martin as a thug Thinkingabout Mar 2012 #202
Arrest the killer Zimmerman now! workinclasszero Mar 2012 #75
This is so disturbing qanda Mar 2012 #76
Looks like the Keystone cops. A cop putting his hands on Zimmerman's jacket... Honeycombe8 Mar 2012 #80
Zimmerman's shirt is neatly tucked in. His clothes look clean, PA Democrat Mar 2012 #83
Zimmerman's little right wing pals not liking this one Kingofalldems Mar 2012 #84
The picture certainly IS becoming more clear Fawke Em Mar 2012 #92
The coverup falls apart! workinclasszero Mar 2012 #91
Speculation kramerv Mar 2012 #94
Are we SURE there was an ambulance? Maybe I missed something. mucifer Mar 2012 #99
Could you be more specific in what... one_voice Mar 2012 #100
No idea kramerv Mar 2012 #114
May not prove anything, but I don't think a jury is going to like George very much after seeing this yardwork Mar 2012 #117
Agree on that point kramerv Mar 2012 #126
Speaking of juries...... Kingofalldems Mar 2012 #130
It may not prove anything... one_voice Mar 2012 #129
He was treated. That much we know. Fawke Em Mar 2012 #108
I think kramerv is speculating that this might be a change of clothes alcibiades_mystery Mar 2012 #131
Even with a change of clothes there's still no apparent wounds to head or face. yardwork Mar 2012 #136
Interesting that the cops would have allowed him a change of clothes, if that's the case. n/t gkhouston Mar 2012 #143
....and left that out of their reports from the scene. yardwork Mar 2012 #147
I doubt he changed clothes. If he did, his old clothes should have been bagged as evidence. n/t gkhouston Mar 2012 #150
broken nose-where's the x-ray? Swagman Mar 2012 #184
Welcome to DU. I see this is your very first post here! yardwork Mar 2012 #115
If he was properly treated shimonitanegi Mar 2012 #118
It healed magically during the ride to the station. /sarcasm yardwork Mar 2012 #124
Lol kramerv Mar 2012 #127
E.T. lives! Spazito Mar 2012 #200
You haven't read the police report? Your questions are answered by the Police themselves. sabrina 1 Mar 2012 #133
New Zimmerman pics kramerv Apr 2012 #203
I have stitched up scalp lacerations. They bleed like hell. mainer Mar 2012 #98
Not only no sign of an injury -- no sign of any treatment. TahitiNut Mar 2012 #142
When my son banged his head against the corner of a wall deutsey Mar 2012 #153
I heard that Zimmerman was on the edge of death shimonitanegi Mar 2012 #101
He sure cleans up nice, don't he now alcibiades_mystery Mar 2012 #132
pics got root Mar 2012 #137
Where are the bandages on his head? Wasn't he treated at the scene? cags Mar 2012 #128
It was stated that EMS looked at him in the police car ProgressiveProfessor Mar 2012 #159
Too bad there's no audio. GreatCaesarsGhost Mar 2012 #135
George seems to be laughing at one point, or at least chuckling. yardwork Mar 2012 #138
police cover-up....obviously SHRED Mar 2012 #139
Lying sacks of shit deutsey Mar 2012 #145
Has it been determined that Zimmerman was photographed by the police when he was brought in? Mayberry Machiavelli Mar 2012 #152
Unknown. The SA is also sitting on the EMS report as well ProgressiveProfessor Mar 2012 #160
SA = "State's Attorney"? Mayberry Machiavelli Mar 2012 #163
Yes, my apologies for the short hand ProgressiveProfessor Mar 2012 #168
Wow, I got my lights punched out -- Hell Hath No Fury Mar 2012 #169
The *casualness* & the devil-may-care attitude of the police caught my attention, too. pacalo Mar 2012 #174
Watch how Zimmerman scardycat Mar 2012 #177
Why is "ABC NEWS EXCLUSIVE!!" plastered all over Zimmerman's face for first 3/4 of the video? 99th_Monkey Mar 2012 #179
Easy to check if his nose was broken via an x-ray Swagman Mar 2012 #183
Not even a pimple... Hubert Flottz Mar 2012 #186
Was Zimmerman checked for concussion and why no bandage on head? soccer1 Mar 2012 #188
Y'think the way Zimmerman Iliyah Mar 2012 #197

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
3. But wouldn't a gash still be present?
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:15 PM
Mar 2012

I understand his nose might have been cleaned up.

However, if he truly broke his nose, it would still be bleeding. When my hubby broke his nose, it bled for hours.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
9. Mine bled hard the first time, at the very least it probably should be swollen or out of place ..the
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:18 PM
Mar 2012

officers didn't seem to even look much at his face.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
47. Yes, they do, as I found out with the ambulance.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:46 PM
Mar 2012

But a second nasal fracture sometimes doesn't bleed at all. I know this from experience.

On edit: I don't think he was injured like he said either.

K Gardner

(14,933 posts)
166. I work in a Level One ER. This man is not injured, I agree.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 11:38 PM
Mar 2012

He supposedly had his "head bashed against the concrete repeatedly". Um, nope.

Supposedly had a broken, bloody nose - which would have bled all over his shirt. Um, nope.

This is the most egregious miscarriage of justice I have EVER seen in my life. This tape is unbelievable.

Kurska

(5,739 posts)
182. Maybe the blood was cleaned up, where is Trayvon's blood?
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 04:45 AM
Mar 2012

Shooting someone at close range would create a rather large splatter. If he isn't bloody at all that means he was cleaned up.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
87. When I broke my nose it didn't bleed at all
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:40 PM
Mar 2012

And it was broken badly. I couldn't breathe out of one side at all. It both felt and looked to me like it was growing out sideways, but if you didn't know what it looked like before you couldn't have noticed anything had happened to it. Even with my family members looking right at it close up they couldn't really tell unless I held a pencil up to it to compare the lack of perfect straightness. My break just happened to have mostly effected the inside, hense my lack of being able to breathe at all through one side. I never got any swelling or black eyes either. It was also only that lack of being able to breathe through one side at all that prompted me to have it fixed two years later.

Not every break is the same, and not every break bleeds.


bluestate10

(10,942 posts)
95. The police report said that Zimmerman had a bloody nose and mouth.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:48 PM
Mar 2012

Blood should have dripped or poured onto his shirt, which appears to be clean and white. Also, Zimmerman's shirt was neatly tucked it. A person that was in a life or death fight doesn't come out of the figfht with a neatly tucked in shirt.

 

got root

(425 posts)
111. but im sure it was swollen, at the very least
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:06 PM
Mar 2012

Last edited Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:12 PM - Edit history (1)







not to mention that till today we were told he was a bloody mess

the whole BS 'SYG' law passed by the NUTs and the NRA.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
140. why would it be?
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:58 PM
Mar 2012

My very bad break never swelled at all and I never got any black eyes. Not every broken nose is the same or acts the same. One would think this is common sense just as no broken leg or broken arm is the same. I'm discouraged that there are many people claiming based on a grainy video that his nose was uninjured when in FACT one can have a very bad break of the nose with no visible trauma - it all depends on the break. Mine was a very bad break and there was nothing at all obvious to anyone other than me that it was... no blood, no swelling, no black eyes, etc. My own family members couldn't tell either when they looked close up right in my face unless I held up a pencil along the ridge because that was the only way to tell that it was no longer entirely straight. It was only the x-rays that showed how bad it was because with my particular bad break the damage was mostly on the inside.

I don't recall any claims by the media or the police that he was a "bloody mess". The police report only said he had blood coming from his nose and a laceration on the back of his head. NONE of that says a "bloody mess", and it is entirely possible for him to have had blood coming from his nose that was not a gusher because not every nose injury is the same as every other. We also know that while he sat in the police car his injuries however slight they may have been were attended to, so we know he was cleaned up of blood at the scene before he got to the police station. I've had a very badly broken nose with no visible sign of trauma. I've seen many people get a nose injury and no two were exactly alike... some bled, some didn't and some bled only a little; some swelled, some didn't and some swelled only a little; some got bruising around the eyes or one eye; some didn't, and some only a very little.

It isn't possible to claim that Zimmerman had no broken nose or no injury to his nose based on a grainy video and what little has been revealed in police reports. But that DOESN'T MATTER. It doesn't matter a damn whether or not Zimmerman got into a physical altercation with Martin. It was still Zimmerman that with a visible holstered gun on his waist pursued Martin for no good reason even when he was told not to and shot him which STILL makes him the instigator and STILL gives Martin reason to be in fear of this stranger that we KNOW was chasing him, thus STILL gives Martin reason to have gotten into a physical altercation with Zimmerman that he was legally allowed to do under the Stand Your Ground law, and depending on the circumstances would still have been legally excusable even without the Stand Your Ground law especially since we do know that Martin DID attempt to retreat from Zimmerman who chased him.

Basing whether or not Zimmerman had the injuries claimed in the police report on a grainy video AFTER he was attended to at the scene is both pointless and stupid particularly when it DOESN'T MATTER whether he had the injuries or not.


polly7

(20,582 posts)
144. You're right about all of that.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:07 PM
Mar 2012

I've had my nose broken three times, the second two didn't bleed or swell, neither did I get black eyes. We looked after pts. whose bleeding we could barely control, while others had only a slight discharge ... or nothing. Lack of blood doesn't mean he wasn't hurt, but imo I'd expect to see at least redness or scrapes somewhere on his head ...... unless the video is that grainy that we can't.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
178. well, I DO see something on the back of his head
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 03:25 AM
Mar 2012

despite the grainy poor quality video. I can't for the life of me say what the hell it is... maybe a laceration, maybe dirt, maybe a shadow or something - I have no idea. But I DO see "something". But that's the point - you just can't tell whether he has a nose injury or back of head injury based on that poor quality video.

It's just madness for people here to be claiming he is entirely uninjured based on that video and especially since we know he was attended to medically before arriving at the police station. I think it's far more important to acknowledge that whatever his injuries they were not severe enough to warrant a trip to the hospital right away ESPECIALLY since he claimed that his head was repeatedly bashed into the sidewalk. If that was the case, than they would have wanted him immediately checked out for head trauma since even a relatively slight blow to the head can mean a dangerous life threatening head injury. He himself would want immediate hospital attention to rule out a dangerous life threatening head injury especially if the hospital evidence would determine that he was indeed injured - it would back up his story of having his head repeatedly bashed into the sidewalk. I therefore find it interesting that he himself and the police didn't think that a hospital visit was warranted specifically because of that medical evidence.




 

got root

(425 posts)
149. if someone was in a fight for their very life, enough to suffer a BROKEN NOSE, and had been bleeding
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:12 PM
Mar 2012

according to the police... there sure is a lack of blood from this video.

not to mention all the other details we now, know.

this tape should lead to an arrest warrant, ASAP.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
181. what is it that you aren't getting here?
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 04:08 AM
Mar 2012

How many times is it necessary to say that I had a very badly broken nose that didn't bleed or swell AT ALL and that my own family members couldn't tell there was any injury whatsoever even when they looked closely right at my face up close and personal? All we knew from the police was that he had blood coming from his nose and a laceration to the back of his head. That's IT. We don't know if it was a little blood or a lot. We don't know whether or not he was able to keep blood from dripping on his clothing or not or if the blood was that much to even drip on him. We also know that he was attended to at the scene by EMT's and presumably the blood however much there was had been cleaned away before his arrival at the station.

AGAIN the point being that we CAN'T TELL from this poor quality video whether he had any injuries or not, and we already DO know that he was attended to by EMT's before this video was taken and could have and likely was cleaned up of blood to attend to said injuries. Continually posting laughably blurry photos from the video certainly doesn't help your insistance that there are no injuries for the obvious reason that the quality is so terrible that you CAN'T TELL.

There are PLENTY of reasons why he should have been arrested that night or at least a few days later, but this ridiculously poor quality video isn't one of them.


 

got root

(425 posts)
185. the police report said he was, so someone is lying
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:32 AM
Mar 2012

How many times is it necessary to say that your anecdotal experience doesn't matter, here?

hisownpetard

(10,964 posts)
171. One witness said the "guy on top" was wearing a white t-shirt.
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 12:17 AM
Mar 2012

Was Zimmerman allowed to go home and change??

DallasNE

(7,403 posts)
154. Back Of The Head
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:24 PM
Mar 2012

Could be seen quite well and I looked for an indication of a cut that Zimmerman claimed required stitches but when he went to the hospital later they said it was too late. There was no indication of blood, a cut or a bandage. The police took his shirt for evidence but I'm not sure when that happened but likely before he was taken to the station. I have never heard of where any blood was found on the sidewalk and Zimmerman's blood should have been there from his head being slammed repeatedly on the sidewalk. No physical evidence has been shown to support Zimmerman's claim and that is where the police work looks the worst. The lead homicide detective thought Zimmerman was telling a cock and bull story and recommended an arrest. A 13 year old eye witness said it was dark and that he really only saw 1 person and heard what he said was a young voice calling for help. His mom called 911 as soon as the son returned to the house and both on on tape.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
175. I broke mine. It bled for a long time too, and I had gashes on my upper lip. My
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 02:57 AM
Mar 2012

mouth was swollen. I looked quite a mess. But then, I fell. He looks quite fine.

Also, my whole mouth was a terrible mess. I could not talk for days. My teeth were loose. He does not look like he has just been in any kind of a fight.

yardwork

(61,703 posts)
89. No sign of any treatment. His shaved head is clean. No blood, no wounds, no bandages.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:43 PM
Mar 2012

Nose is not bleeding and doesn't appear to be swollen. Face doesn't appear to be swollen. Shoulder doesn't look messed up. His clothes look clean and neat. No sign of blood on him anywhere.

mbuch64

(55 posts)
105. treated
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:00 PM
Mar 2012

The big question is: If Trayvon charged Zimmerman, broke his nose knocking him to the ground, repeatedly slammed his head into the ground, then why is there no blood on his clothes and why does his clothing appear to be so neat.
Doesn't look like he has been in a life or death struggle to me.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
119. if he was treated, the cops would have gloves on
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:15 PM
Mar 2012

from the moment there was an injury noted, there would be gloves

polly7

(20,582 posts)
161. Yes, there would have been. nt.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 11:23 PM
Mar 2012

Actually, even if he wasn't treated, presumably they would want to protect any evidence that may only be seen with forensics, either Trayvon Martin's or Zimmerman's. They messed up big time.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
180. They must have gotten to Zimmerman pretty fast with that "treatment" ...
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 03:34 AM
Mar 2012

to catch all that blood gushing from his "wounds" and "broken nose"
before it even reached his nice clean shirt and t-shirt. Who knew
they had such light-speed emergency response in Florida?

polly7

(20,582 posts)
5. I don't see anything either.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:16 PM
Mar 2012

I saw the officer take a quick look at the back of his head and it seemed like he didn't notice anything, he looked elsewhere immediately. The back of his coat seemed clean also, but you're right, the video is grainy.

 

alphafemale

(18,497 posts)
17. And a head gash bleeds like crazy. Even a little one.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:22 PM
Mar 2012

Lots of capillaries that will bleed and make even a scratch look scary.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
22. Yes, head wounds bleed and bleed.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:26 PM
Mar 2012

We've taken people by ambulance who, once pressure was applied for a bit and they were cleaned up, were almost apologetic at calling in. If his nose had been broken more than once it may or may not have bled copiously ..... but if it had ..... where is the blood on his clothing? He doesn't look at all like someone in a recent life or death struggle. I don't believe he was. jmo though.

 

arcane1

(38,613 posts)
55. Yep, wrestlers will create a teeny tiny cut in their head
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:59 PM
Mar 2012

and it will bleed like there's no tomorrow

Fuddnik

(8,846 posts)
116. Also, there's something obviously missing.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:10 PM
Mar 2012

To repeatedly beat someone's head into the ground, you have to have a handle. In other words, "Hair".

That ball-headed prick ain't got none.

Or a neck either for that matter.

gkhouston

(21,642 posts)
141. There's no surprise, as he's a cop wannabe.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:59 PM
Mar 2012

If cops favor a particular brand of shoes, Zimmerman's probably wearing 'em.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
16. I see some "grunge," which may be hair growing in or debris,
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:22 PM
Mar 2012

but I didn't see any blood or a gash that would produce enough blood to result in deadly force.

TorchTheWitch

(11,065 posts)
90. I think I see a little bit of something on the back of his head
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:44 PM
Mar 2012

Kind of difficult to tell with the video quality.


bluestate10

(10,942 posts)
102. A head wound bleeds out. I have had one small one.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:53 PM
Mar 2012

The wound bled out. If Zimmerman had a head wound and you can see a bit of something, you would surely be able to see streams of blood.

 

slackmaster

(60,567 posts)
190. I don't believe the resolution in the video is high enough to tell. I'll wait for the police photos.
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:00 AM
Mar 2012

I suspect they took some nice digital close-ups of Zimmerman's injuries at the crime scene, before the injuries were cleaned up.

If there really were any injuries, that is.

 

got root

(425 posts)
113. me too... but i ain't seeing what you're seeing
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:08 PM
Mar 2012

Last edited Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:45 PM - Edit history (1)

unless you're being facetious






deutsey

(20,166 posts)
151. I'm sure they have a courtesy "powder your nose" kit in the back of the squad car
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:14 PM
Mar 2012

You know, to help perps prep and freshen up for the mugshot so they'll look their very best.

Goddam liars.

OhioChick

(23,218 posts)
10. Nice catch....
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:18 PM
Mar 2012

I see no blood on him, whatsoever.

Not even on his gray shirt, which would signify a bloody nose.

Nada, nothing.

TeamsterDem

(1,173 posts)
85. Um, the legal standard is indeed to fear for one's life or "great bodily harm"
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:34 PM
Mar 2012

How Zimmerman appears in this video simply doesn't comport with any reasonable belief of life or "great bodily harm" if for no other reason than "great bodily harm" would be visible, and Zimmerman's account was not that Trayvon might at some near-future point cause him great bodily harm, but that he was ALREADY causing him great bodily harm.

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
157. The problem is that untrained people who get their bell rung often think they have been injured
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:59 PM
Mar 2012

They also no longer think clearly. That can make a glancing blow meet the the reasonable fear standard, which is the crux of the self defense argument.

Now with this video showing no apparent injuries (EMS report would help detail that), it guts the reasonable fear element required for self defense.

The video is a key piece we all have been waiting for since it is not conjecture or supposition and seriously crimps the self defense argument

TeamsterDem

(1,173 posts)
172. I think you're misreading the law in 2 important ways
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 01:25 AM
Mar 2012

First, you're assuming that the law defines self-defense as individually-decided whereas actually it isn't. The actual law gives grants an automatic presumption of imminent peril only under a few defined scenarios, none of which apply to Zimmerman. And in fact, the law explicitly limits Zimmerman to stand your ground were he to have remained in his car, which he did not. Furthermore, the phrase "reasonably believes" does not mean that Zimmerman simply says "well I believed ..." but rather that reasonable OTHER people (law enforcement, the DA, and a judge or jury) agree that it was reasonable; there is no grant of reasonableness to every actor EXCEPT in a few pretty well-defined scenarios. As such, getting your bell rung simply isn't enough unless most people would've also "reasonably believed" that death or great bodily harm were imminent - from a kid 100 pounds lighter who wasn't armed.

In other words, Zimmerman was ripe for arrest even without this video because he never actually had a "reasonable" way to believe that Trayvon Martin, a kid 100 pounds lighter than he, who wasn't visibly or ultimately armed, could have presented such a mortal threat. He could CLAIM it, but a claim is just that, a claim. It doesn't mean it's reasonable. And in Zimmerman's case it wasn't then nor is now.

Second, what you're doing is basically beginning the chronology of events - or in terms of the way you've phrased things, the beginning point of the burden of responsibility - at the point where Trayvon allegedly hit Zimmerman. As a person who greatly values our system of laws, I must begin that process where the events actually began that night: At the point where Zimmerman began pursuing an unarmed civilian in violation of the police dispatcher. And I must also note that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon not just in a vehicle, but he also exited that vehicle to conduct a foot patrol in the area where Trayvon had eluded him. That would be menacing even for me, and I'm not a small minor; I too would seek to defend myself.

It almost doesn't matter that greatly in terms of the self-defense argument that Zimmerman appeared fine because irrespective of his appearance he still INITIATED the confrontation. So while it does appear to show that his version of events is seriously flawed, it is also evident that he initiated the events between the two because of course he pursued him in what a ton of people would view as an aggressive manner, especially given that he had absolutely ZERO legal or even reasonable authority to do so.

Even a bad law like the "stand your ground" one isn't AS broad as the media is making it out to be. It's overly broad, but not so broad as to support the idea that you can pursue someone to the point where most would "reasonably believe" you're menacing them, and then have the audacity to claim self-defense. In fact, if anyone should have been scared I would say that would've been Trayvon: Here is a minor child walking in the darkness with some large man pursuing him and finally confronting him with "what are you doing here?" The absence of Zimmerman's recognized and recognizable law enforcement status is key, as Trayvon knew he had a legal right to be where he was, but very likely assumed an imminent assault - perhaps he viewed Zimmerman's return to his vehicle as a means by which Zimmerman was going to retrieve a weapon - and he had a right to defend himself because of what Zimmerman did. Zimmerman was the aggressor in this: Even if he didn't throw the first punch, he did pursue and harass a minor child whose only crime was not dressing as Zimmerman saw fit and, of course, for not having been born into the race Zimmerman didn't view as a "fucking ****," or as a race whose members didn't "always get away."

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
173. Actually we are in agreement on some of this
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 02:33 AM
Mar 2012
First, you're assuming that the law defines self-defense as individually-decided whereas actually it isn't. The actual law gives grants an automatic presumption of imminent peril only under a few defined scenarios, none of which apply to Zimmerman. And in fact, the law explicitly limits Zimmerman to stand your ground were he to have remained in his car, which he did not. Furthermore, the phrase "reasonably believes" does not mean that Zimmerman simply says "well I believed ..." but rather that reasonable OTHER people (law enforcement, the DA, and a judge or jury) agree that it was reasonable; there is no grant of reasonableness to every actor EXCEPT in a few pretty well-defined scenarios. As such, getting your bell rung simply isn't enough unless most people would've also "reasonably believed" that death or great bodily harm were imminent - from a kid 100 pounds lighter who wasn't armed.

No, as I have posted here and elsewhere it is the reasonable man concept, rife throughout English common law.

I contend that an untrained person with their bell rung could reasonably believe that they are in danger of GBI. It would be an easy sell to the cops and a jury if it ever got that far. However, without any evidence of injury (pending the EMS report, detail photos if they exist...) it greatly diminishes any claim of reasonable fear in support of a self defense claim.

As to the age and size differences, Martin was a minor but scarcely a child. A 150lb athlete is more than capable of taking out a 250lb adult without a weapon. For that reason I don't believe the size and age differences are germane, one way or the other, and have no bearing on the reasonableness.

In other words, Zimmerman was ripe for arrest even without this video because he never actually had a "reasonable" way to believe that Trayvon Martin, a kid 100 pounds lighter than he, who wasn't visibly or ultimately armed, could have presented such a mortal threat. He could CLAIM it, but a claim is just that, a claim. It doesn't mean it's reasonable. And in Zimmerman's case it wasn't then nor is now.

The standard is not mortal threat...it is if a reasonable person in those circumstances would believe they were at risk for GBI or death. In the generic, if a smaller/lighter/faster person whacked a large person upside the head and then continued to attack their victim, would deadly force be a reasonable course. The answer I would expect is a loud yes. The question is what happened in this event. The apparent lack of injuries or effect from the attack (concussion...) means that the claim of being physically attacked is false, so any self defense claim based on being attacked is also false.

Second, what you're doing is basically beginning the chronology of events - or in terms of the way you've phrased things, the beginning point of the burden of responsibility - at the point where Trayvon allegedly hit Zimmerman. As a person who greatly values our system of laws, I must begin that process where the events actually began that night: At the point where Zimmerman began pursuing an unarmed civilian in violation of the police dispatcher. And I must also note that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon not just in a vehicle, but he also exited that vehicle to conduct a foot patrol in the area where Trayvon had eluded him. That would be menacing even for me, and I'm not a small minor; I too would seek to defend myself.

As I stated earlier the age and size difference does not strike me as germane, one way or the other.

A minor point, but 911 operators have no authority to issue orders, there was no violation.

My concern with your approach is that IMO we do not have a clear physical history of the events. Lots of suppositions, assumptions and claims on all sides complete with conflicting witnesses. Even had a bubba who published a map here last night from a blog source that had some good analysis. Clearly there is still more speculation than fact. That may change when the State Attorney releases the data they have, just like it did with Zimmerman's injuries and you could well be proven right in your assessment.

I agree that I have indeed focused on the self defense claims, since if they fail, the rest doesn't matter and Zimmerman is going to jail.

It almost doesn't matter that greatly in terms of the self-defense argument that Zimmerman appeared fine because irrespective of his appearance he still INITIATED the confrontation. So while it does appear to show that his version of events is seriously flawed, it is also evident that he initiated the events between the two because of course he pursued him in what a ton of people would view as an aggressive manner, especially given that he had absolutely ZERO legal or even reasonable authority to do so.

The self defense argument needs to be addressed since if Zimmerman claims he broke contact, tried to leave, then Zimmerman attacked him, it could be readily asserted that the roles would have been reversed. Destroy self defense and there is no defense,

Even a bad law like the "stand your ground" one isn't AS broad as the media is making it out to be. It's overly broad, but not so broad as to support the idea that you can pursue someone to the point where most would "reasonably believe" you're menacing them, and then have the audacity to claim self-defense. In fact, if anyone should have been scared I would say that would've been Trayvon: Here is a minor child walking in the darkness with some large man pursuing him and finally confronting him with "what are you doing here?" The absence of Zimmerman's recognized and recognizable law enforcement status is key, as Trayvon knew he had a legal right to be where he was, but very likely assumed an imminent assault - perhaps he viewed Zimmerman's return to his vehicle as a means by which Zimmerman was going to retrieve a weapon - and he had a right to defend himself because of what Zimmerman did. Zimmerman was the aggressor in this: Even if he didn't throw the first punch, he did pursue and harass a minor child whose only crime was not dressing as Zimmerman saw fit and, of course, for not having been born into the race Zimmerman didn't view as a "fucking ****," or as a race whose members didn't "always get away."

I understand your assertion that Zimmerman was the aggressor even if he turned away. Its a theory and it might play to the jury, it might not. However if you kill the self defense claim, Zimmerman goes to jail regardless. The video released today goes a long way to doing just that.

I too believe that given the totality of the circumstances arrest was warranted that night. Since then we have learned that the lead investigator did too. Why he was overruled by the then State Attorney and why new State Attorney has not done so remains a mystery.

Effectively you and I are focusing on two sides of the same coin. We just disagree on what will be the most effective/important approach/argument.

TeamsterDem

(1,173 posts)
176. What I guess I don't understand is why you seem to choose to ignore
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 03:20 AM
Mar 2012

that Martin was pursued and menaced by Zimmerman. You're acting as though these two simply saw each other and just like that Martin struck him with absolutely no prior interaction or behavior (presuming of course that he did, something I doubt). That's the problem: No matter how you slice it this event didn't occur in a sealed, vacuum-like environment of some theoretical imagination. Instead, it happened after a man 100+ pounds bigger had pursued and harassed a minor child (like it or not, but 17 does in fact still render one a child in the eyes of the law), and in so doing had intimidated that child to take such normally unnecessary actions as to evade and perhaps run (according to the girlfriend). That inherently implies fear, and fear absent any reasonable counter-provocation implies self-defense; that "reasonable fear" of which you speak also applies to Martin.

What you want to do is dismiss this from your rendering of events, limiting things to just an ALLEGED assault - that of the supposed Martin v. Zimmerman variety - and pretend as though that creates a valid question of reasonableness. The problem is things didn't occur that way: By every possible account even including the shooter himself he pursued a civilian, following him both in a vehicle and on foot into a darkened area, and in fact verbally challenged Trayvon's right to be where he was. Ignoring or refusing to discuss those facts shows the weakness of your position as it can't fully explain the entire rendition of what happened.

If Trayvon had for no reason whatsoever walked up on Zimmerman and accosted him, then I suppose a reasonable case might be made for reasonable/justifiable self-defense. But I'm not altogether impressed with arguments about what would have been in some alternate version of facts as they're not instructive for what actually happened that night.

I'm also not very impressed by Zimmerman's claim that he "broke contact" inasmuch as that "broken contact" (to wit, him allegedly returning to his vehicle) might have entailed (in Martin's mind) him retrieving a weapon; after having been the aggressor during this entire altercation, I'm not sure how a reasonable person would believe that he were simply "breaking contact," as that would actually seem to be illogical given the prior behavior.

The bottom line is that by any account you pick Zimmerman created a showdown between the two persons by menacing one into a state of fear, but then the bully - after having started the whole thing - didn't like taking his medicine, so he pulled a gun and shot an unarmed child. True enough: In a fair fight someone weighing 100 pounds or more can whup a larger person. But then again, if you start a fight you're assuming inherent responsibility for it. If you don't want that responsibility then perhaps you shouldn't back people into a corner, especially when you have no legal right to be doing so. That you decide to confront someone else and find yourself in the unique position of meeting someone who took exception to it doesn't give you, then, some "self-defense" right; self-defense is for those innocent of considerably provoking the situation in question.

All of that is with the assumption that Trayvon had in fact struck Zimmerman, a fact neither of us are very sure of - now less so with the funeral home director saying that he didn't see any signs of wounds on Trayvon's hands. It shouldn't need to be said, but of course offensive wounds something even a street cop can identify, so one must assume that the cops had noticed them missing, known about Zimmerman's menacing (for even his own version of events describes himself as following another civilian both in a vehicle and on foot into a darkened area), and somehow still chose not to arrest. Whoever made that decision needs to reverse it and then explain it. Nothing short of that can be considered in any way "justice."

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
198. For a self defense argument to work, all the elements have to lineup
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 03:28 PM
Mar 2012

You are focusing on what lead up to the physical confrontation. I am focusing on the confrontation itself. Either could derail and preclude the self defense argument.

I think its easier and clearer to go after the confrontation. You think its easier to work with the preliminary events. Either or both could be right.

TeamsterDem

(1,173 posts)
199. No, I am focusing on the entire thing, not just one part
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 04:36 PM
Mar 2012

because that night was not just one event in a vacuum. It's that sort of thinking which has Zimmerman free right now.

yardwork

(61,703 posts)
96. I'm comparing the video to what Zimmerman's attorneys said, and it doesn't match.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:49 PM
Mar 2012

They said that Trayvon Martin jumped Zimmerman, punched him in the nose, and knocked him down. They said that Trayvan was on top of Zimmerman "beating him in the face." The witness that is all over the internet says that he saw Trayvan beating Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk, repeatedly.

Zimmerman's attorneys say that Zimmerman finally had to pull out a gun and shoot Trayvan to save his life. If that had happened, Trayvan's blood would be on Zimmerman.

This video casts grave doubt on those stories.

And, the police have known this all along.

PotatoChip

(3,186 posts)
13. Yup. He looks ok to my untrained eye.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:19 PM
Mar 2012

I saw nothing that would suggest that he had a broken nose (which was one of the reports). It's my understanding that a broken nose bleeds a lot. Wouldn't there be some blood on his clothing?

Also, I too didn't see a cut on his head or grass stains on his back. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think so.

Thank you for the link.

 

Snake Alchemist

(3,318 posts)
21. That can't be the right video. Where is the short, fat, white guy?
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:25 PM
Mar 2012

Unable to tell much from the video at all. Hopefully, they'll be some photos and video from the actual seen.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
29. His "maybe friend or acquaintance or co-worker" Joe What-his-name
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:30 PM
Mar 2012

said he'd lost weight since the mugshot picture from a few years back.

He still looks short.

 

Snake Alchemist

(3,318 posts)
33. Yeah, he won't be playing for the NBA anytime soon, but he looks like a totally different guy
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:34 PM
Mar 2012

with the weight loss and haircut.

notadmblnd

(23,720 posts)
24. He doesn't look like he's been in a fight
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:27 PM
Mar 2012

no blood, no apparent dirt on his clothes. He doesn't look upset and his attitude seems pretty casual.

Spazito

(50,451 posts)
26. Anyone who has had a badly bleeding nose even without being...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:27 PM
Mar 2012

hit knows how bloody one's shirt/top becomes very quickly. There is NOTHING on his grey shirt, nothing at all. A broken nose bleeds and bleeds profusely yet there is nothing and, grainy or not, that is very clear on this video, imo.

I am glad this video has shown up, it confirms what most DUers knew already, Zimmerman lied, is lying and the proof is there on the video.



Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
28. True. I used to get bloody noses from sinus infections
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:29 PM
Mar 2012

until I had surgery to correct a deviated septum.

Spazito

(50,451 posts)
42. It certainly seems to becoming much clearer that the DA has a lot of....
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:41 PM
Mar 2012

questions to answer for ignoring the recommendation of the chief investigator on the case. With what is coming out now, it may well be that there were some on the force who wanted to do the right thing but were stymied by higher ups. Why? What is the reason for a) protecting Zimmerman and b) closing ranks and leaking negative things about the victim and publicly stating things that defend Zimmerman? What is the connection between Zimmerman and the Sanford police? Was he a snitch they want to protect? There has to be more than just his father being a retired judge from a different state, imo.

There is something even stinkier and despicable about this than I first thought and my first thoughts were cynical enough.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
66. I would say the police released this video to back up their statements
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:16 PM
Mar 2012

that they wanted to charge him.

Spazito

(50,451 posts)
86. I wonder if this could be a 'war' of leaks...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:35 PM
Mar 2012

with those focused on protecting Zimmerman for whatever reason leaking the negative, and irrelevant to the shooting, stuff about Trayvon while those who tried to do the right thing but were stymied by the higher-ups, etc, are leaking what actually occurred ie the video, the news that the chief investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman.

I checked to see if this video was a release by the Sanford police but it seems it is a leak when I read the article on ABC news:

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3OuBNXLtMk



Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
88. Yep.. that's why I think someone at the department leaked it in
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:41 PM
Mar 2012

connection with the information that came out today about how they wanted to charge him.

yardwork

(61,703 posts)
107. It had to be somebody at the station who leaked it, right?
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:02 PM
Mar 2012

Nobody else would have access to the tape. I wonder if they were ordered to destroy this tape and kept it instead, waiting to release it.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
110. Usually those tapes are kept in case their subpeonaed.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:04 PM
Mar 2012

I don't know for how long - that varies by department.

Spazito

(50,451 posts)
148. Lawrence O'Donnell just interviewed the ABC reporter who got the video and...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:11 PM
Mar 2012

it was given to him by the Sanford police so it wasn't a leak as I first thought. The reporter simply asked for the video and received it.

mbperrin

(7,672 posts)
167. He's a valuable snitch to somebody is all I can think.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 11:47 PM
Mar 2012

He's not rich or influential enough to have that kind of clout himself.

Spazito

(50,451 posts)
195. That is where my thoughts went as well...
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 10:52 AM
Mar 2012

Either he is a valuable informant, valuable enough to protect even when he murders or there is a key connection between his father, the retired judge, and the DA that has yet to be found.

The father being a retired judge from another State doesn't seem to me to be enough 'leverage' in and of itself to warrant this kind of protection and cover-up.

uppityperson

(115,679 posts)
134. Could be why the police wanted a manslaughter warrant against him.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:42 PM
Mar 2012

The higher ups have a lot to answer for.

Bluerthanblue

(13,669 posts)
31. doesn't look like there's much blood on his body either
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:32 PM
Mar 2012

which there should have been if he was on the ground with Trayvon beating him as he shot him. ????

barbtries

(28,811 posts)
36. looks fine to me.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:37 PM
Mar 2012

where's the blood? if he shot him because Trayvon was on top of him pounding his head into the sidewalk wouldn't he be covered in blood?

spanone

(135,871 posts)
39. interesting...who videotaped this? it's not a static camera, it follows them as they walk.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:39 PM
Mar 2012

just curious.......

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
70. It's a motion-led surveillance camera.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:19 PM
Mar 2012

Looks affixed to the garage. Most police departments now have a closed garage so that prisoners have less of a chance to flee during transport. Then there was one immediately inside.

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
40. Anything's possible, but if that dude was punched square in the nose hard enough to knock
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:39 PM
Mar 2012

him down...well, I don't think he'd look like that.

On the bright side for the Zimmerman Fan Club, he only appears to be a fit grown man, not a pudgy brawler. Could he be bested in a fistfight by a scared and aggressive Trayvon Martin? Who knows.

Downside? It really doesn't look like he was in much of a fistfight, never mind one he was losing badly enough to be scared of grave bodily harm.

shraby

(21,946 posts)
44. I had a clear picture and there was no evidence of anything wet on the front
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:44 PM
Mar 2012

of his shirt, his head was dry and clean. His nose wasn't swollen or bleeding. As far as I could see, he didn't even look like he'd been in a fight at all.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
53. Cuffs mandatory. He knew his way inside, cops didn't have to lead him. He knew that place well
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:54 PM
Mar 2012

I'd say he's been there before, many times. What was his relationship with the local PD and with the State's Attorney?

beyurslf

(6,755 posts)
48. If the roles had been reversed, and George was dead and Trayvon at the police station,
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:47 PM
Mar 2012

I wonder if the police would have been so calm? They almost appear nice in the video. Also makes you wonder if Trayvon would be home right now or still sitting in a jail cell.

AndyTiedye

(23,500 posts)
162. If It Had Been Trayvon with the Gun and the White Judges Son Lying Dead on the Street
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 11:23 PM
Mar 2012

Sanford's "finest" woulda shot Trayvon fulla hot lead faster than you can say "Stand your ground".
Probably woulda called in the SWAT team just to make sure.

 

SamG

(535 posts)
51. Match this with the 911 call a few minutes earlier..
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:52 PM
Mar 2012

Neighbor Calls 911 To Report Trayvon Martin Shooting

The one where you hear SEVERAL SCREAMS from someone that doesn't sound like this guy, sounds like a scared skinny 17 year old kid like Trayvon, which was identified by his mother and father as Trayvon's voice.


Listener alert: THIS IS NOT PRETTY, gunshot heard here on this. Don't listen if you don't need to.

Maine-ah

(9,902 posts)
121. that it's self
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:18 PM
Mar 2012

is pretty damning evidence, add that to the video from the OP..asshole should be in jail right now waiting for a trial.

 

got root

(425 posts)
52. well, if thats him... i would have arrested him, too... not buying his 'self defense' story...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:53 PM
Mar 2012

especially with the 911 tapes showing him in pursuit... instigating a confrontation, at the very least.

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
54. OMG that f**kin liar!
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 07:55 PM
Mar 2012

Zimmerman is CLEARLY not injured in the least! The BS story being floated says Zimmerman has knocked to the ground and had his face smashed into the ground and his nose broken and on this tape there is NO SUCH injuries!

The bastard is a stone cold racist killer and a damn liar! No wonder fox and the right wing teabag rethugs embrace him!


Trayvon Martin Killing: George Zimmerman's Attorney and Friend Speak Out

Attorney Craig Sonner said the public is only hearing part of the story, and when all the facts come out, it will be clear that Zimmerman acted in self defense. A grand jury is scheduled to begin hearing the case April 10.

"George Zimmerman suffered a broken nose, and had an injury to the back of his head, he was attacked by Trayvon Martin on that evening," Sonner said. "This was a case of self defense."


http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmermans-attorney-friend-speak-trayvon-martin-incident/story?id=15999256

marlakay

(11,488 posts)
59. They need to start talking about his dad being retired judge
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:09 PM
Mar 2012

that is why he got that treatment….

it is so obvious he wasn't hurt at all…and no grass on his back.

and his nose does not look broken!

itsrobert

(14,157 posts)
60. Paramedics probably were washing Trayvon's blood from Zimmerman
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:09 PM
Mar 2012

that's why he was probably treated for.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
62. Back splatter.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:13 PM
Mar 2012

When one shoots someone, they often get blood splatter on them (and fine blood splatter may not show up in this video).

Iliyah

(25,111 posts)
67. Per Zimmerman thru Oliver
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:17 PM
Mar 2012

Trayvon tried to take his gun away. Trayvon was on top of him beating the shit out of him. Zimmerman feared for his life and shot Trayvon apparently at close range. I see no blood on the front of Zimmerman's shirt, I would assume that Trayvon's blood from the gunshot would have splattered. A witness, 13 year old young man, saw someone on the ground alone and hearing crying and screaming "help". The young man turned around to get his dog and then heard a gunshot and the screaming stopped.

The young man and his sister called 911 on 2/26/2012, the police finally met with him and his mother on 3/5/2012.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
78. Former medic
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:26 PM
Mar 2012

This 'Spain's the treatment in back of cruiser and likely the non existence of the AMA

TahitiNut

(71,611 posts)
97. That is a man with no injuries whatsoever. None.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:50 PM
Mar 2012

He looks like he's going in for a nice, casual dinner with friends. No blood -- not his own or any backsplatter from being close. He shot Trayvon from a nice, safe distance. His "lawyer" and "friend" are f*cking liars!!


TahitiNut

(71,611 posts)
120. Oliver is a psycho.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:15 PM
Mar 2012

There's no other explanation I can imagine. He saw his chance for his "15 minutes" and his narcissism took over -- or he's being paid handsomely by someone with an agenda. He has a big audience in Dumbfuckistan.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
123. Or his mother is the mother in law
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:20 PM
Mar 2012

Of Zimmerman's wife.


Another DU'er found this one yesterday. I was also scratching my head. This seems to square that part of the circle.

Zimmerman is the son of a judge, another part of the circle squared.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
187. He's Zimmerman's brother? Really?
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 08:03 AM
Mar 2012

"my wife's mother-in-law" is..my mother, not some totally unrelated person, unless there's some strange and more complicated backstory involved here.

yardwork

(61,703 posts)
125. I've decided that Oliver is not being paid. Nobody would pay for that script.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:23 PM
Mar 2012

Oliver managed to introduce the news that Zimmerman had a drinking problem that was integral to his previous arrests for assault. But Oliver assures us that Zimmerman's drinking problem is now under control. Maybe.

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
73. cop was looking at the back of his head
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:25 PM
Mar 2012

there's something there, but not enough to warrant a bandage, and it's not bleeding.

fifthoffive

(382 posts)
74. If there was blood on his clothes
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:25 PM
Mar 2012

the police would have been wearing gloves. They wouldn't risk their own health, even if they wanted to contaminate the evidence.

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
75. Arrest the killer Zimmerman now!
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:25 PM
Mar 2012

The Sanford PD is corrupt from top to bottom! Those assholes KNEW that bastard wasn't injured in the least and never said a word as the right wing hate machine spewed out lies about Trayvon attacking Zimmerman!



This is from the ED Show site...check some of the comments.

http://ed.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909685-video-reveals-no-blood-or-bruises-on-trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman#comments

qanda

(10,422 posts)
76. This is so disturbing
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:25 PM
Mar 2012

I thought Zimmerman killed Trayvon while he was on top of him which would have made Zimmerman's shirt have a lot of blood on it. Oh my goodness! I think I'm going to go cry now.

Honeycombe8

(37,648 posts)
80. Looks like the Keystone cops. A cop putting his hands on Zimmerman's jacket...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:27 PM
Mar 2012

which could contain dna evidence.

Sheesh. These cops didn't know what they were doing in this incident.

The jacket & clothing should've been confiscated to test for evidence of a fight with Martin.

That police dept is in trouble.

PA Democrat

(13,225 posts)
83. Zimmerman's shirt is neatly tucked in. His clothes look clean,
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:31 PM
Mar 2012

no mud, dirt or blood stains from the fight that had him supposedly pinned to the ground. Head wounds bleed and swell badly. If there are any wounds they are quite small and insignificant.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
92. The picture certainly IS becoming more clear
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:45 PM
Mar 2012

and it's looking more like cold-blooded murder and not self-defense, that's for sure.

 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
91. The coverup falls apart!
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:44 PM
Mar 2012

Let the shitstorm begin!

The Sanford PD is dirty from top to bottom! They knew damn good and well that Zimmerman had no broken nose, his face was not smashed into the ground and they said NOTHING as the right wing/fox BS machine cranked out lie after lie about Trayvon attacking poor little innocent George Zimmerman!

These fuckers are accessories to murder as far as I'm concerned. The whole damned department is engaged in a conspiracy to cover up the truth in the murder of Trayvon Martin!

kramerv

(9 posts)
94. Speculation
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:46 PM
Mar 2012

So if the police suspect he's just murdered someone they're going to let him wear the evidence to the station? Doubtful.

It's logical to assume an ambulance might show up when someone gets shot, but not logical to assume they MAY have treated Zimmerman for his wounds.


one_voice

(20,043 posts)
100. Could you be more specific in what...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:52 PM
Mar 2012

you think is speculation? No one is saying that EMTs didn't treat him, but where's all the blood?

kramerv

(9 posts)
114. No idea
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:08 PM
Mar 2012

I have no idea, much like everyone else who wasn't there. Just making the point that many things happened between the shooting and that video. It proves nothing, or in some folks world it proves what they want it to prove.

yardwork

(61,703 posts)
117. May not prove anything, but I don't think a jury is going to like George very much after seeing this
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:15 PM
Mar 2012

kramerv

(9 posts)
126. Agree on that point
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:23 PM
Mar 2012

I totally agree. It would make more sense for the lack of evidence to be the catalyst for a grand jury investigation. I think the intent of the law was to eliminate situations that occur in states like my own...where the evidence clearly supports self defense but the law requires an arrest and grand jury investigation. No happy medium I guess.

one_voice

(20,043 posts)
129. It may not prove anything...
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:26 PM
Mar 2012

concrete, but I do think it calls into question the supposed severe beating he took.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
108. He was treated. That much we know.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:02 PM
Mar 2012

The point here is that:

A. There is no blood on his clothes. Anyone who's had a facial injury knows you bleed a lot, and;
B. Broken noses - in MOST cases - bleed profusely and are hard to stop. If Trayvon had truly broken his nose, then he should either still be bleeding or, see point A.

 

alcibiades_mystery

(36,437 posts)
131. I think kramerv is speculating that this might be a change of clothes
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:27 PM
Mar 2012

Yes, that is silly beyond description, but I think kramerv is right to suggest that it is the only possible way this video squares with the hyperbolic nonsense about Trayvon "Mad Dog" Martin practically pounding the poor fellow into oblivion.

yardwork

(61,703 posts)
136. Even with a change of clothes there's still no apparent wounds to head or face.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:44 PM
Mar 2012

I'm sure that the police and Zimmerman will say that they stopped by George's apartment to let him change clothes. After all, aren't all people under arrest allowed to go home and change clothes first before moseying on down to the station?

Spazito

(50,451 posts)
200. E.T. lives!
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 04:52 PM
Mar 2012

That magic instant healing finger appeared while Zimmerman was being transported hence no evidence of injuries in the video, yeah, that must be it!

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
133. You haven't read the police report? Your questions are answered by the Police themselves.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:37 PM
Mar 2012

He was put into a police cruiser and treated there by a FD or EMT medic. The report makes it clear that he was not in an ambulance, but in the police car, handcuffed as we see him in the video. The clothes he is wearing in this video fit the PD report's description of what he was wearing when they got to the scene.

This appears to be the immediate aftermath of what was described at the scene, how he was placed in the police car, treated, then driven to the Police Station. Nothing in the police report stated that he had a broken nose eg. It did say he was bleeding from his nose, so that apparently was treated in the back of the police car.

When we get the time of this video, we can fit that into the timeline we already have. I am assuming it took the same amount of time to drive him from the scene to the Police Dept as it took the police to get to the scene from the Police Dept after Zimmerman's call. Which should be approx between five and ten minutes.

kramerv

(9 posts)
203. New Zimmerman pics
Mon Apr 2, 2012, 08:18 PM
Apr 2012

So what now that the enhanced video shows some of Zimm's injuries we abandon the thread?

mainer

(12,029 posts)
98. I have stitched up scalp lacerations. They bleed like hell.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 08:51 PM
Mar 2012

The scalp is highly vascular, and anyone who has been banged in the head knows how much blood ends up on your clothes. This man has not had a scalp laceration. His clothes appear pristine. His statement is bullshit.

TahitiNut

(71,611 posts)
142. Not only no sign of an injury -- no sign of any treatment.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:02 PM
Mar 2012

It's beyond any stretch of a rational mind to think that guy got harmed in any way.

deutsey

(20,166 posts)
153. When my son banged his head against the corner of a wall
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:23 PM
Mar 2012

he looked like he had a severe head injury judging from all the blood covering his face (which freaked me the hell out, as you can imagine). It was just a little cut at the top of his forehead that required a couple stitches, though.

ProgressiveProfessor

(22,144 posts)
159. It was stated that EMS looked at him in the police car
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 11:09 PM
Mar 2012

EMS report has not yet been released. It could well be the last nail in his claim of self defense

yardwork

(61,703 posts)
138. George seems to be laughing at one point, or at least chuckling.
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:46 PM
Mar 2012

This does not look like a man who is distraught that he had to shoot and kill a teenager in self defense minutes earlier.

Mayberry Machiavelli

(21,096 posts)
152. Has it been determined that Zimmerman was photographed by the police when he was brought in?
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:14 PM
Mar 2012

I mean aside from the surveillance video. If they were saying in the report that he was bleeding from nose and mouth, wouldn't they need to photograph him and document that?

Not that I would be in the least surprised to find out they didn't, since the whole thing seems to be designed as a sweep under the rug job from the beginning.

 

Hell Hath No Fury

(16,327 posts)
169. Wow, I got my lights punched out --
Wed Mar 28, 2012, 11:51 PM
Mar 2012

by a classmate when I was 6 years old. I took a closed fist straight into my nose. Blood down my face, right onto my white Catholic school uniform shirt. Still have the dent in my nose to this day.

Just a few weeks ago, I saw a fight between neighbors -- one guy took a fist to the face. Blood, blood everywhere, spitting it out while he continued to fight.

What floored me (besides Zimmerman's apparant lack of visible injury) was the casualness of how the police treated him and walked him through the garage. He was actually walking BEHIND/AWAY FROM the officers at one point -- unbelievably sloppy of the cops to allow that.

This is really getting interesting.

Zimmerman is allowing his surrogates to go out there and tell his story -- he clearly has to stay out of sight until he can nail his story down based on what the evidence is no showing.

pacalo

(24,721 posts)
174. The *casualness* & the devil-may-care attitude of the police caught my attention, too.
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 02:47 AM
Mar 2012

I hope the public scrutiny & concern put the pressure on this police department to re-evaluate their value system.

scardycat

(169 posts)
177. Watch how Zimmerman
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 03:22 AM
Mar 2012

gets out of the car. Like he would any casual day. Doesnt look like he is sore or hurt anywhere to me.

 

99th_Monkey

(19,326 posts)
179. Why is "ABC NEWS EXCLUSIVE!!" plastered all over Zimmerman's face for first 3/4 of the video?
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 03:30 AM
Mar 2012

That is inexcusable ... aren't these ABC people supposed to be state-of-the-art news producers?

What are they hiding? Why in the fuck would they do that? is way beyond me.

Swagman

(1,934 posts)
183. Easy to check if his nose was broken via an x-ray
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:13 AM
Mar 2012

an x-ray will show the break and how long ago it broke.

This tale is falling apart at the seems. If he had these injuries the cops would have called an ambulance/nurse or face a possible lawsuit.

soccer1

(343 posts)
188. Was Zimmerman checked for concussion and why no bandage on head?
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 09:31 AM
Mar 2012

I would think that if Zimmerman's head had been repeatedly slammed against a sidewalk or even on grass, there would be a significant chance he would have suffered some level of a concussion. Even if there had been no blood from an abrasion on the back of his head, I would think that an EMT would put a bandage on the wound, after it was cleaned up, to help prevent infection. I don't know, I'm not an attorney, but I would think the self-defense claim would only stand up if his injuries were consistent with a life threatening situation. But maybe the "perceived threat" of the "stand your ground" law allows for killing a person if you just feel your life is in danger. Will be interesting to see what comes of this.

Iliyah

(25,111 posts)
197. Y'think the way Zimmerman
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 02:47 PM
Mar 2012

told his father what happened, Trayvon repeated bashing Zimmerman's head to the ground the police would suggest him to get a MRI or a head scan to make sure there were no internal injuries?

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