General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsVideo of Zimmerman on police camera the night of the shooting.
He's NOT bloody and I don't see anything on the back of his head.
Granted, the video is grainy:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475
Riftaxe
(2,693 posts)that he was treated at the scene?
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)I understand his nose might have been cleaned up.
However, if he truly broke his nose, it would still be bleeding. When my hubby broke his nose, it bled for hours.
polly7
(20,582 posts)officers didn't seem to even look much at his face.
USArmyParatrooper
(1,827 posts)He's clearly not injured.
polly7
(20,582 posts)But a second nasal fracture sometimes doesn't bleed at all. I know this from experience.
On edit: I don't think he was injured like he said either.
K Gardner
(14,933 posts)He supposedly had his "head bashed against the concrete repeatedly". Um, nope.
Supposedly had a broken, bloody nose - which would have bled all over his shirt. Um, nope.
This is the most egregious miscarriage of justice I have EVER seen in my life. This tape is unbelievable.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Shooting someone at close range would create a rather large splatter. If he isn't bloody at all that means he was cleaned up.
yardwork
(61,703 posts)TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)And it was broken badly. I couldn't breathe out of one side at all. It both felt and looked to me like it was growing out sideways, but if you didn't know what it looked like before you couldn't have noticed anything had happened to it. Even with my family members looking right at it close up they couldn't really tell unless I held a pencil up to it to compare the lack of perfect straightness. My break just happened to have mostly effected the inside, hense my lack of being able to breathe at all through one side. I never got any swelling or black eyes either. It was also only that lack of being able to breathe through one side at all that prompted me to have it fixed two years later.
Not every break is the same, and not every break bleeds.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)Blood should have dripped or poured onto his shirt, which appears to be clean and white. Also, Zimmerman's shirt was neatly tucked it. A person that was in a life or death fight doesn't come out of the figfht with a neatly tucked in shirt.
got root
(425 posts)Last edited Wed Mar 28, 2012, 10:12 PM - Edit history (1)
not to mention that till today we were told he was a bloody mess
the whole BS 'SYG' law passed by the NUTs and the NRA.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)My very bad break never swelled at all and I never got any black eyes. Not every broken nose is the same or acts the same. One would think this is common sense just as no broken leg or broken arm is the same. I'm discouraged that there are many people claiming based on a grainy video that his nose was uninjured when in FACT one can have a very bad break of the nose with no visible trauma - it all depends on the break. Mine was a very bad break and there was nothing at all obvious to anyone other than me that it was... no blood, no swelling, no black eyes, etc. My own family members couldn't tell either when they looked close up right in my face unless I held up a pencil along the ridge because that was the only way to tell that it was no longer entirely straight. It was only the x-rays that showed how bad it was because with my particular bad break the damage was mostly on the inside.
I don't recall any claims by the media or the police that he was a "bloody mess". The police report only said he had blood coming from his nose and a laceration on the back of his head. NONE of that says a "bloody mess", and it is entirely possible for him to have had blood coming from his nose that was not a gusher because not every nose injury is the same as every other. We also know that while he sat in the police car his injuries however slight they may have been were attended to, so we know he was cleaned up of blood at the scene before he got to the police station. I've had a very badly broken nose with no visible sign of trauma. I've seen many people get a nose injury and no two were exactly alike... some bled, some didn't and some bled only a little; some swelled, some didn't and some swelled only a little; some got bruising around the eyes or one eye; some didn't, and some only a very little.
It isn't possible to claim that Zimmerman had no broken nose or no injury to his nose based on a grainy video and what little has been revealed in police reports. But that DOESN'T MATTER. It doesn't matter a damn whether or not Zimmerman got into a physical altercation with Martin. It was still Zimmerman that with a visible holstered gun on his waist pursued Martin for no good reason even when he was told not to and shot him which STILL makes him the instigator and STILL gives Martin reason to be in fear of this stranger that we KNOW was chasing him, thus STILL gives Martin reason to have gotten into a physical altercation with Zimmerman that he was legally allowed to do under the Stand Your Ground law, and depending on the circumstances would still have been legally excusable even without the Stand Your Ground law especially since we do know that Martin DID attempt to retreat from Zimmerman who chased him.
Basing whether or not Zimmerman had the injuries claimed in the police report on a grainy video AFTER he was attended to at the scene is both pointless and stupid particularly when it DOESN'T MATTER whether he had the injuries or not.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I've had my nose broken three times, the second two didn't bleed or swell, neither did I get black eyes. We looked after pts. whose bleeding we could barely control, while others had only a slight discharge ... or nothing. Lack of blood doesn't mean he wasn't hurt, but imo I'd expect to see at least redness or scrapes somewhere on his head ...... unless the video is that grainy that we can't.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)despite the grainy poor quality video. I can't for the life of me say what the hell it is... maybe a laceration, maybe dirt, maybe a shadow or something - I have no idea. But I DO see "something". But that's the point - you just can't tell whether he has a nose injury or back of head injury based on that poor quality video.
It's just madness for people here to be claiming he is entirely uninjured based on that video and especially since we know he was attended to medically before arriving at the police station. I think it's far more important to acknowledge that whatever his injuries they were not severe enough to warrant a trip to the hospital right away ESPECIALLY since he claimed that his head was repeatedly bashed into the sidewalk. If that was the case, than they would have wanted him immediately checked out for head trauma since even a relatively slight blow to the head can mean a dangerous life threatening head injury. He himself would want immediate hospital attention to rule out a dangerous life threatening head injury especially if the hospital evidence would determine that he was indeed injured - it would back up his story of having his head repeatedly bashed into the sidewalk. I therefore find it interesting that he himself and the police didn't think that a hospital visit was warranted specifically because of that medical evidence.
got root
(425 posts)according to the police... there sure is a lack of blood from this video.
not to mention all the other details we now, know.
this tape should lead to an arrest warrant, ASAP.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)How many times is it necessary to say that I had a very badly broken nose that didn't bleed or swell AT ALL and that my own family members couldn't tell there was any injury whatsoever even when they looked closely right at my face up close and personal? All we knew from the police was that he had blood coming from his nose and a laceration to the back of his head. That's IT. We don't know if it was a little blood or a lot. We don't know whether or not he was able to keep blood from dripping on his clothing or not or if the blood was that much to even drip on him. We also know that he was attended to at the scene by EMT's and presumably the blood however much there was had been cleaned away before his arrival at the station.
AGAIN the point being that we CAN'T TELL from this poor quality video whether he had any injuries or not, and we already DO know that he was attended to by EMT's before this video was taken and could have and likely was cleaned up of blood to attend to said injuries. Continually posting laughably blurry photos from the video certainly doesn't help your insistance that there are no injuries for the obvious reason that the quality is so terrible that you CAN'T TELL.
There are PLENTY of reasons why he should have been arrested that night or at least a few days later, but this ridiculously poor quality video isn't one of them.
got root
(425 posts)How many times is it necessary to say that your anecdotal experience doesn't matter, here?
Agreed
hisownpetard
(10,964 posts)Was Zimmerman allowed to go home and change??
DallasNE
(7,403 posts)Could be seen quite well and I looked for an indication of a cut that Zimmerman claimed required stitches but when he went to the hospital later they said it was too late. There was no indication of blood, a cut or a bandage. The police took his shirt for evidence but I'm not sure when that happened but likely before he was taken to the station. I have never heard of where any blood was found on the sidewalk and Zimmerman's blood should have been there from his head being slammed repeatedly on the sidewalk. No physical evidence has been shown to support Zimmerman's claim and that is where the police work looks the worst. The lead homicide detective thought Zimmerman was telling a cock and bull story and recommended an arrest. A 13 year old eye witness said it was dark and that he really only saw 1 person and heard what he said was a young voice calling for help. His mom called 911 as soon as the son returned to the house and both on on tape.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)mouth was swollen. I looked quite a mess. But then, I fell. He looks quite fine.
Also, my whole mouth was a terrible mess. I could not talk for days. My teeth were loose. He does not look like he has just been in any kind of a fight.
jwirr
(39,215 posts)Dead_Parrot
(14,478 posts)Last time I got a bleeding nose, the stuff was everywhere.
Incitatus
(5,317 posts)There would be a shitload of blood.
yardwork
(61,703 posts)Nose is not bleeding and doesn't appear to be swollen. Face doesn't appear to be swollen. Shoulder doesn't look messed up. His clothes look clean and neat. No sign of blood on him anywhere.
The big question is: If Trayvon charged Zimmerman, broke his nose knocking him to the ground, repeatedly slammed his head into the ground, then why is there no blood on his clothes and why does his clothing appear to be so neat.
Doesn't look like he has been in a life or death struggle to me.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)from the moment there was an injury noted, there would be gloves
polly7
(20,582 posts)Actually, even if he wasn't treated, presumably they would want to protect any evidence that may only be seen with forensics, either Trayvon Martin's or Zimmerman's. They messed up big time.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)to catch all that blood gushing from his "wounds" and "broken nose"
before it even reached his nice clean shirt and t-shirt. Who knew
they had such light-speed emergency response in Florida?
spanone
(135,871 posts)Evasporque
(2,133 posts)What crap....
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Cenk is about to run the video after the break.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I saw the officer take a quick look at the back of his head and it seemed like he didn't notice anything, he looked elsewhere immediately. The back of his coat seemed clean also, but you're right, the video is grainy.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)Lots of capillaries that will bleed and make even a scratch look scary.
polly7
(20,582 posts)We've taken people by ambulance who, once pressure was applied for a bit and they were cleaned up, were almost apologetic at calling in. If his nose had been broken more than once it may or may not have bled copiously ..... but if it had ..... where is the blood on his clothing? He doesn't look at all like someone in a recent life or death struggle. I don't believe he was. jmo though.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)and it will bleed like there's no tomorrow
dionysus
(26,467 posts)Fuddnik
(8,846 posts)To repeatedly beat someone's head into the ground, you have to have a handle. In other words, "Hair".
That ball-headed prick ain't got none.
Or a neck either for that matter.
yardwork
(61,703 posts)gkhouston
(21,642 posts)If cops favor a particular brand of shoes, Zimmerman's probably wearing 'em.
slackmaster
(60,567 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)but I didn't see any blood or a gash that would produce enough blood to result in deadly force.
stlsaxman
(9,236 posts)he acts like his brains were squeezed.
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)mbperrin
(7,672 posts)He's not hurt.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Kind of difficult to tell with the video quality.
bluestate10
(10,942 posts)The wound bled out. If Zimmerman had a head wound and you can see a bit of something, you would surely be able to see streams of blood.
Logical
(22,457 posts)slackmaster
(60,567 posts)I suspect they took some nice digital close-ups of Zimmerman's injuries at the crime scene, before the injuries were cleaned up.
If there really were any injuries, that is.
Logical
(22,457 posts)got root
(425 posts)Last edited Wed Mar 28, 2012, 09:45 PM - Edit history (1)
unless you're being facetious
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)yardwork
(61,703 posts)deutsey
(20,166 posts)You know, to help perps prep and freshen up for the mugshot so they'll look their very best.
Goddam liars.
leveymg
(36,418 posts)OhioChick
(23,218 posts)I see no blood on him, whatsoever.
Not even on his gray shirt, which would signify a bloody nose.
Nada, nothing.
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)How Zimmerman appears in this video simply doesn't comport with any reasonable belief of life or "great bodily harm" if for no other reason than "great bodily harm" would be visible, and Zimmerman's account was not that Trayvon might at some near-future point cause him great bodily harm, but that he was ALREADY causing him great bodily harm.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)They also no longer think clearly. That can make a glancing blow meet the the reasonable fear standard, which is the crux of the self defense argument.
Now with this video showing no apparent injuries (EMS report would help detail that), it guts the reasonable fear element required for self defense.
The video is a key piece we all have been waiting for since it is not conjecture or supposition and seriously crimps the self defense argument
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)First, you're assuming that the law defines self-defense as individually-decided whereas actually it isn't. The actual law gives grants an automatic presumption of imminent peril only under a few defined scenarios, none of which apply to Zimmerman. And in fact, the law explicitly limits Zimmerman to stand your ground were he to have remained in his car, which he did not. Furthermore, the phrase "reasonably believes" does not mean that Zimmerman simply says "well I believed ..." but rather that reasonable OTHER people (law enforcement, the DA, and a judge or jury) agree that it was reasonable; there is no grant of reasonableness to every actor EXCEPT in a few pretty well-defined scenarios. As such, getting your bell rung simply isn't enough unless most people would've also "reasonably believed" that death or great bodily harm were imminent - from a kid 100 pounds lighter who wasn't armed.
In other words, Zimmerman was ripe for arrest even without this video because he never actually had a "reasonable" way to believe that Trayvon Martin, a kid 100 pounds lighter than he, who wasn't visibly or ultimately armed, could have presented such a mortal threat. He could CLAIM it, but a claim is just that, a claim. It doesn't mean it's reasonable. And in Zimmerman's case it wasn't then nor is now.
Second, what you're doing is basically beginning the chronology of events - or in terms of the way you've phrased things, the beginning point of the burden of responsibility - at the point where Trayvon allegedly hit Zimmerman. As a person who greatly values our system of laws, I must begin that process where the events actually began that night: At the point where Zimmerman began pursuing an unarmed civilian in violation of the police dispatcher. And I must also note that Zimmerman pursued Trayvon not just in a vehicle, but he also exited that vehicle to conduct a foot patrol in the area where Trayvon had eluded him. That would be menacing even for me, and I'm not a small minor; I too would seek to defend myself.
It almost doesn't matter that greatly in terms of the self-defense argument that Zimmerman appeared fine because irrespective of his appearance he still INITIATED the confrontation. So while it does appear to show that his version of events is seriously flawed, it is also evident that he initiated the events between the two because of course he pursued him in what a ton of people would view as an aggressive manner, especially given that he had absolutely ZERO legal or even reasonable authority to do so.
Even a bad law like the "stand your ground" one isn't AS broad as the media is making it out to be. It's overly broad, but not so broad as to support the idea that you can pursue someone to the point where most would "reasonably believe" you're menacing them, and then have the audacity to claim self-defense. In fact, if anyone should have been scared I would say that would've been Trayvon: Here is a minor child walking in the darkness with some large man pursuing him and finally confronting him with "what are you doing here?" The absence of Zimmerman's recognized and recognizable law enforcement status is key, as Trayvon knew he had a legal right to be where he was, but very likely assumed an imminent assault - perhaps he viewed Zimmerman's return to his vehicle as a means by which Zimmerman was going to retrieve a weapon - and he had a right to defend himself because of what Zimmerman did. Zimmerman was the aggressor in this: Even if he didn't throw the first punch, he did pursue and harass a minor child whose only crime was not dressing as Zimmerman saw fit and, of course, for not having been born into the race Zimmerman didn't view as a "fucking ****," or as a race whose members didn't "always get away."
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)No, as I have posted here and elsewhere it is the reasonable man concept, rife throughout English common law.
I contend that an untrained person with their bell rung could reasonably believe that they are in danger of GBI. It would be an easy sell to the cops and a jury if it ever got that far. However, without any evidence of injury (pending the EMS report, detail photos if they exist...) it greatly diminishes any claim of reasonable fear in support of a self defense claim.
As to the age and size differences, Martin was a minor but scarcely a child. A 150lb athlete is more than capable of taking out a 250lb adult without a weapon. For that reason I don't believe the size and age differences are germane, one way or the other, and have no bearing on the reasonableness.
The standard is not mortal threat...it is if a reasonable person in those circumstances would believe they were at risk for GBI or death. In the generic, if a smaller/lighter/faster person whacked a large person upside the head and then continued to attack their victim, would deadly force be a reasonable course. The answer I would expect is a loud yes. The question is what happened in this event. The apparent lack of injuries or effect from the attack (concussion...) means that the claim of being physically attacked is false, so any self defense claim based on being attacked is also false.
As I stated earlier the age and size difference does not strike me as germane, one way or the other.
A minor point, but 911 operators have no authority to issue orders, there was no violation.
My concern with your approach is that IMO we do not have a clear physical history of the events. Lots of suppositions, assumptions and claims on all sides complete with conflicting witnesses. Even had a bubba who published a map here last night from a blog source that had some good analysis. Clearly there is still more speculation than fact. That may change when the State Attorney releases the data they have, just like it did with Zimmerman's injuries and you could well be proven right in your assessment.
I agree that I have indeed focused on the self defense claims, since if they fail, the rest doesn't matter and Zimmerman is going to jail.
The self defense argument needs to be addressed since if Zimmerman claims he broke contact, tried to leave, then Zimmerman attacked him, it could be readily asserted that the roles would have been reversed. Destroy self defense and there is no defense,
I understand your assertion that Zimmerman was the aggressor even if he turned away. Its a theory and it might play to the jury, it might not. However if you kill the self defense claim, Zimmerman goes to jail regardless. The video released today goes a long way to doing just that.
I too believe that given the totality of the circumstances arrest was warranted that night. Since then we have learned that the lead investigator did too. Why he was overruled by the then State Attorney and why new State Attorney has not done so remains a mystery.
Effectively you and I are focusing on two sides of the same coin. We just disagree on what will be the most effective/important approach/argument.
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)that Martin was pursued and menaced by Zimmerman. You're acting as though these two simply saw each other and just like that Martin struck him with absolutely no prior interaction or behavior (presuming of course that he did, something I doubt). That's the problem: No matter how you slice it this event didn't occur in a sealed, vacuum-like environment of some theoretical imagination. Instead, it happened after a man 100+ pounds bigger had pursued and harassed a minor child (like it or not, but 17 does in fact still render one a child in the eyes of the law), and in so doing had intimidated that child to take such normally unnecessary actions as to evade and perhaps run (according to the girlfriend). That inherently implies fear, and fear absent any reasonable counter-provocation implies self-defense; that "reasonable fear" of which you speak also applies to Martin.
What you want to do is dismiss this from your rendering of events, limiting things to just an ALLEGED assault - that of the supposed Martin v. Zimmerman variety - and pretend as though that creates a valid question of reasonableness. The problem is things didn't occur that way: By every possible account even including the shooter himself he pursued a civilian, following him both in a vehicle and on foot into a darkened area, and in fact verbally challenged Trayvon's right to be where he was. Ignoring or refusing to discuss those facts shows the weakness of your position as it can't fully explain the entire rendition of what happened.
If Trayvon had for no reason whatsoever walked up on Zimmerman and accosted him, then I suppose a reasonable case might be made for reasonable/justifiable self-defense. But I'm not altogether impressed with arguments about what would have been in some alternate version of facts as they're not instructive for what actually happened that night.
I'm also not very impressed by Zimmerman's claim that he "broke contact" inasmuch as that "broken contact" (to wit, him allegedly returning to his vehicle) might have entailed (in Martin's mind) him retrieving a weapon; after having been the aggressor during this entire altercation, I'm not sure how a reasonable person would believe that he were simply "breaking contact," as that would actually seem to be illogical given the prior behavior.
The bottom line is that by any account you pick Zimmerman created a showdown between the two persons by menacing one into a state of fear, but then the bully - after having started the whole thing - didn't like taking his medicine, so he pulled a gun and shot an unarmed child. True enough: In a fair fight someone weighing 100 pounds or more can whup a larger person. But then again, if you start a fight you're assuming inherent responsibility for it. If you don't want that responsibility then perhaps you shouldn't back people into a corner, especially when you have no legal right to be doing so. That you decide to confront someone else and find yourself in the unique position of meeting someone who took exception to it doesn't give you, then, some "self-defense" right; self-defense is for those innocent of considerably provoking the situation in question.
All of that is with the assumption that Trayvon had in fact struck Zimmerman, a fact neither of us are very sure of - now less so with the funeral home director saying that he didn't see any signs of wounds on Trayvon's hands. It shouldn't need to be said, but of course offensive wounds something even a street cop can identify, so one must assume that the cops had noticed them missing, known about Zimmerman's menacing (for even his own version of events describes himself as following another civilian both in a vehicle and on foot into a darkened area), and somehow still chose not to arrest. Whoever made that decision needs to reverse it and then explain it. Nothing short of that can be considered in any way "justice."
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)You are focusing on what lead up to the physical confrontation. I am focusing on the confrontation itself. Either could derail and preclude the self defense argument.
I think its easier and clearer to go after the confrontation. You think its easier to work with the preliminary events. Either or both could be right.
TeamsterDem
(1,173 posts)because that night was not just one event in a vacuum. It's that sort of thinking which has Zimmerman free right now.
yardwork
(61,703 posts)They said that Trayvon Martin jumped Zimmerman, punched him in the nose, and knocked him down. They said that Trayvan was on top of Zimmerman "beating him in the face." The witness that is all over the internet says that he saw Trayvan beating Zimmerman's head into the sidewalk, repeatedly.
Zimmerman's attorneys say that Zimmerman finally had to pull out a gun and shoot Trayvan to save his life. If that had happened, Trayvan's blood would be on Zimmerman.
This video casts grave doubt on those stories.
And, the police have known this all along.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)PotatoChip
(3,186 posts)I saw nothing that would suggest that he had a broken nose (which was one of the reports). It's my understanding that a broken nose bleeds a lot. Wouldn't there be some blood on his clothing?
Also, I too didn't see a cut on his head or grass stains on his back. Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think so.
Thank you for the link.
dmkinsey
(840 posts)so he could clean-up and get on some clean clothes
yardwork
(61,703 posts)fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)lets ask a professor... they know best, right?
malaise
(269,157 posts)alfredo
(60,075 posts)X_Digger
(18,585 posts)Glimmer of Hope
(5,823 posts)Liar.
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)Unable to tell much from the video at all. Hopefully, they'll be some photos and video from the actual seen.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)said he'd lost weight since the mugshot picture from a few years back.
He still looks short.
Snake Alchemist
(3,318 posts)with the weight loss and haircut.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)no blood, no apparent dirt on his clothes. He doesn't look upset and his attitude seems pretty casual.
X_Digger
(18,585 posts)You can see the one cop wipe his hand on his trousers.
intheflow
(28,501 posts)Spazito
(50,451 posts)hit knows how bloody one's shirt/top becomes very quickly. There is NOTHING on his grey shirt, nothing at all. A broken nose bleeds and bleeds profusely yet there is nothing and, grainy or not, that is very clear on this video, imo.
I am glad this video has shown up, it confirms what most DUers knew already, Zimmerman lied, is lying and the proof is there on the video.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)until I had surgery to correct a deviated septum.
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)spanone
(135,871 posts)Spazito
(50,451 posts)questions to answer for ignoring the recommendation of the chief investigator on the case. With what is coming out now, it may well be that there were some on the force who wanted to do the right thing but were stymied by higher ups. Why? What is the reason for a) protecting Zimmerman and b) closing ranks and leaking negative things about the victim and publicly stating things that defend Zimmerman? What is the connection between Zimmerman and the Sanford police? Was he a snitch they want to protect? There has to be more than just his father being a retired judge from a different state, imo.
There is something even stinkier and despicable about this than I first thought and my first thoughts were cynical enough.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)that they wanted to charge him.
Spazito
(50,451 posts)with those focused on protecting Zimmerman for whatever reason leaking the negative, and irrelevant to the shooting, stuff about Trayvon while those who tried to do the right thing but were stymied by the higher-ups, etc, are leaking what actually occurred ie the video, the news that the chief investigator wanted to charge Zimmerman.
I checked to see if this video was a release by the Sanford police but it seems it is a leak when I read the article on ABC news:
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/trayvon-martin-case-exclusive-surveillance-video-george-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3OuBNXLtMk
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)connection with the information that came out today about how they wanted to charge him.
yardwork
(61,703 posts)Nobody else would have access to the tape. I wonder if they were ordered to destroy this tape and kept it instead, waiting to release it.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)I don't know for how long - that varies by department.
Spazito
(50,451 posts)it was given to him by the Sanford police so it wasn't a leak as I first thought. The reporter simply asked for the video and received it.
mbperrin
(7,672 posts)He's not rich or influential enough to have that kind of clout himself.
Spazito
(50,451 posts)Either he is a valuable informant, valuable enough to protect even when he murders or there is a key connection between his father, the retired judge, and the DA that has yet to be found.
The father being a retired judge from another State doesn't seem to me to be enough 'leverage' in and of itself to warrant this kind of protection and cover-up.
uppityperson
(115,679 posts)The higher ups have a lot to answer for.
Bluerthanblue
(13,669 posts)which there should have been if he was on the ground with Trayvon beating him as he shot him. ????
barbtries
(28,811 posts)where's the blood? if he shot him because Trayvon was on top of him pounding his head into the sidewalk wouldn't he be covered in blood?
spanone
(135,871 posts)just curious.......
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Looks affixed to the garage. Most police departments now have a closed garage so that prisoners have less of a chance to flee during transport. Then there was one immediately inside.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)him down...well, I don't think he'd look like that.
On the bright side for the Zimmerman Fan Club, he only appears to be a fit grown man, not a pudgy brawler. Could he be bested in a fistfight by a scared and aggressive Trayvon Martin? Who knows.
Downside? It really doesn't look like he was in much of a fistfight, never mind one he was losing badly enough to be scared of grave bodily harm.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)That's their story and that's what they're changing it to.
shraby
(21,946 posts)of his shirt, his head was dry and clean. His nose wasn't swollen or bleeding. As far as I could see, he didn't even look like he'd been in a fight at all.
CatWoman
(79,302 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)I'd say he's been there before, many times. What was his relationship with the local PD and with the State's Attorney?
freshwest
(53,661 posts)leveymg
(36,418 posts)Billy Club Boys Club.
yardwork
(61,703 posts)beyurslf
(6,755 posts)I wonder if the police would have been so calm? They almost appear nice in the video. Also makes you wonder if Trayvon would be home right now or still sitting in a jail cell.
AndyTiedye
(23,500 posts)Sanford's "finest" woulda shot Trayvon fulla hot lead faster than you can say "Stand your ground".
Probably woulda called in the SWAT team just to make sure.
Algebra Palin
(34 posts)zimmerman was NEVER injured.
my spidey sense is on point!
Faryn Balyncd
(5,125 posts)Bjorn Against
(12,041 posts)SamG
(535 posts)Neighbor Calls 911 To Report Trayvon Martin Shooting
The one where you hear SEVERAL SCREAMS from someone that doesn't sound like this guy, sounds like a scared skinny 17 year old kid like Trayvon, which was identified by his mother and father as Trayvon's voice.
Listener alert: THIS IS NOT PRETTY, gunshot heard here on this. Don't listen if you don't need to.
Maine-ah
(9,902 posts)is pretty damning evidence, add that to the video from the OP..asshole should be in jail right now waiting for a trial.
got root
(425 posts)especially with the 911 tapes showing him in pursuit... instigating a confrontation, at the very least.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Zimmerman is CLEARLY not injured in the least! The BS story being floated says Zimmerman has knocked to the ground and had his face smashed into the ground and his nose broken and on this tape there is NO SUCH injuries!
The bastard is a stone cold racist killer and a damn liar! No wonder fox and the right wing teabag rethugs embrace him!
Trayvon Martin Killing: George Zimmerman's Attorney and Friend Speak Out
Attorney Craig Sonner said the public is only hearing part of the story, and when all the facts come out, it will be clear that Zimmerman acted in self defense. A grand jury is scheduled to begin hearing the case April 10.
"George Zimmerman suffered a broken nose, and had an injury to the back of his head, he was attacked by Trayvon Martin on that evening," Sonner said. "This was a case of self defense."
http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmermans-attorney-friend-speak-trayvon-martin-incident/story?id=15999256
freshwest
(53,661 posts)ThomThom
(1,486 posts)Mud and dirt and blood
freshwest
(53,661 posts)The Midway Rebel
(2,191 posts)Broken nose? My eye!
marlakay
(11,488 posts)that is why he got that treatment
.
it is so obvious he wasn't hurt at all
and no grass on his back.
and his nose does not look broken!
leveymg
(36,418 posts)itsrobert
(14,157 posts)that's why he was probably treated for.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)When one shoots someone, they often get blood splatter on them (and fine blood splatter may not show up in this video).
malaise
(269,157 posts)Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)malaise
(269,157 posts)Damn
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)Trayvon tried to take his gun away. Trayvon was on top of him beating the shit out of him. Zimmerman feared for his life and shot Trayvon apparently at close range. I see no blood on the front of Zimmerman's shirt, I would assume that Trayvon's blood from the gunshot would have splattered. A witness, 13 year old young man, saw someone on the ground alone and hearing crying and screaming "help". The young man turned around to get his dog and then heard a gunshot and the screaming stopped.
The young man and his sister called 911 on 2/26/2012, the police finally met with him and his mother on 3/5/2012.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I will eat my shoe.
And yes, I have seen people processed in
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)I was a crime reporter for more than 10 years.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)This 'Spain's the treatment in back of cruiser and likely the non existence of the AMA
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)He looks like he's going in for a nice, casual dinner with friends. No blood -- not his own or any backsplatter from being close. He shot Trayvon from a nice, safe distance. His "lawyer" and "friend" are f*cking liars!!
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)There's no other explanation I can imagine. He saw his chance for his "15 minutes" and his narcissism took over -- or he's being paid handsomely by someone with an agenda. He has a big audience in Dumbfuckistan.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Of Zimmerman's wife.
Another DU'er found this one yesterday. I was also scratching my head. This seems to square that part of the circle.
Zimmerman is the son of a judge, another part of the circle squared.
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)Thanks, nads. I still think he's a psycho.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)"my wife's mother-in-law" is..my mother, not some totally unrelated person, unless there's some strange and more complicated backstory involved here.
HooptieWagon
(17,064 posts)yardwork
(61,703 posts)Oliver managed to introduce the news that Zimmerman had a drinking problem that was integral to his previous arrests for assault. But Oliver assures us that Zimmerman's drinking problem is now under control. Maybe.
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)yardwork
(61,703 posts)Enrique
(27,461 posts)there's something there, but not enough to warrant a bandage, and it's not bleeding.
fifthoffive
(382 posts)the police would have been wearing gloves. They wouldn't risk their own health, even if they wanted to contaminate the evidence.
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)He could have had any disease.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)The Sanford PD is corrupt from top to bottom! Those assholes KNEW that bastard wasn't injured in the least and never said a word as the right wing hate machine spewed out lies about Trayvon attacking Zimmerman!
This is from the ED Show site...check some of the comments.
http://ed.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/28/10909685-video-reveals-no-blood-or-bruises-on-trayvon-martin-shooter-george-zimmerman#comments
qanda
(10,422 posts)I thought Zimmerman killed Trayvon while he was on top of him which would have made Zimmerman's shirt have a lot of blood on it. Oh my goodness! I think I'm going to go cry now.
Honeycombe8
(37,648 posts)which could contain dna evidence.
Sheesh. These cops didn't know what they were doing in this incident.
The jacket & clothing should've been confiscated to test for evidence of a fight with Martin.
That police dept is in trouble.
PA Democrat
(13,225 posts)no mud, dirt or blood stains from the fight that had him supposedly pinned to the ground. Head wounds bleed and swell badly. If there are any wounds they are quite small and insignificant.
Kingofalldems
(38,471 posts)Picture looks quite clear to me.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)and it's looking more like cold-blooded murder and not self-defense, that's for sure.
workinclasszero
(28,270 posts)Let the shitstorm begin!
The Sanford PD is dirty from top to bottom! They knew damn good and well that Zimmerman had no broken nose, his face was not smashed into the ground and they said NOTHING as the right wing/fox BS machine cranked out lie after lie about Trayvon attacking poor little innocent George Zimmerman!
These fuckers are accessories to murder as far as I'm concerned. The whole damned department is engaged in a conspiracy to cover up the truth in the murder of Trayvon Martin!
kramerv
(9 posts)So if the police suspect he's just murdered someone they're going to let him wear the evidence to the station? Doubtful.
It's logical to assume an ambulance might show up when someone gets shot, but not logical to assume they MAY have treated Zimmerman for his wounds.
mucifer
(23,564 posts)I don't trust them.
one_voice
(20,043 posts)you think is speculation? No one is saying that EMTs didn't treat him, but where's all the blood?
I have no idea, much like everyone else who wasn't there. Just making the point that many things happened between the shooting and that video. It proves nothing, or in some folks world it proves what they want it to prove.
yardwork
(61,703 posts)kramerv
(9 posts)I totally agree. It would make more sense for the lack of evidence to be the catalyst for a grand jury investigation. I think the intent of the law was to eliminate situations that occur in states like my own...where the evidence clearly supports self defense but the law requires an arrest and grand jury investigation. No happy medium I guess.
Kingofalldems
(38,471 posts)one_voice
(20,043 posts)concrete, but I do think it calls into question the supposed severe beating he took.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)The point here is that:
A. There is no blood on his clothes. Anyone who's had a facial injury knows you bleed a lot, and;
B. Broken noses - in MOST cases - bleed profusely and are hard to stop. If Trayvon had truly broken his nose, then he should either still be bleeding or, see point A.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)Yes, that is silly beyond description, but I think kramerv is right to suggest that it is the only possible way this video squares with the hyperbolic nonsense about Trayvon "Mad Dog" Martin practically pounding the poor fellow into oblivion.
yardwork
(61,703 posts)I'm sure that the police and Zimmerman will say that they stopped by George's apartment to let him change clothes. After all, aren't all people under arrest allowed to go home and change clothes first before moseying on down to the station?
gkhouston
(21,642 posts)yardwork
(61,703 posts)gkhouston
(21,642 posts)Swagman
(1,934 posts)yardwork
(61,703 posts)shimonitanegi
(114 posts)at least he should wear a bandage on his head.
yardwork
(61,703 posts)I want that healthcare plan!
Spazito
(50,451 posts)That magic instant healing finger appeared while Zimmerman was being transported hence no evidence of injuries in the video, yeah, that must be it!
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)He was put into a police cruiser and treated there by a FD or EMT medic. The report makes it clear that he was not in an ambulance, but in the police car, handcuffed as we see him in the video. The clothes he is wearing in this video fit the PD report's description of what he was wearing when they got to the scene.
This appears to be the immediate aftermath of what was described at the scene, how he was placed in the police car, treated, then driven to the Police Station. Nothing in the police report stated that he had a broken nose eg. It did say he was bleeding from his nose, so that apparently was treated in the back of the police car.
When we get the time of this video, we can fit that into the timeline we already have. I am assuming it took the same amount of time to drive him from the scene to the Police Dept as it took the police to get to the scene from the Police Dept after Zimmerman's call. Which should be approx between five and ten minutes.
kramerv
(9 posts)So what now that the enhanced video shows some of Zimm's injuries we abandon the thread?
mainer
(12,029 posts)The scalp is highly vascular, and anyone who has been banged in the head knows how much blood ends up on your clothes. This man has not had a scalp laceration. His clothes appear pristine. His statement is bullshit.
TahitiNut
(71,611 posts)It's beyond any stretch of a rational mind to think that guy got harmed in any way.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)he looked like he had a severe head injury judging from all the blood covering his face (which freaked me the hell out, as you can imagine). It was just a little cut at the top of his forehead that required a couple stitches, though.
shimonitanegi
(114 posts)because of Martin's relentless beating.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)got root
(425 posts)cags
(1,914 posts)Fucking liars
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)EMS report has not yet been released. It could well be the last nail in his claim of self defense
GreatCaesarsGhost
(8,585 posts)That would be very interesting.
yardwork
(61,703 posts)This does not look like a man who is distraught that he had to shoot and kill a teenager in self defense minutes earlier.
SHRED
(28,136 posts)Zimmerman walks and looks fine.
deutsey
(20,166 posts)Mayberry Machiavelli
(21,096 posts)I mean aside from the surveillance video. If they were saying in the report that he was bleeding from nose and mouth, wouldn't they need to photograph him and document that?
Not that I would be in the least surprised to find out they didn't, since the whole thing seems to be designed as a sweep under the rug job from the beginning.
ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Mayberry Machiavelli
(21,096 posts)ProgressiveProfessor
(22,144 posts)Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)by a classmate when I was 6 years old. I took a closed fist straight into my nose. Blood down my face, right onto my white Catholic school uniform shirt. Still have the dent in my nose to this day.
Just a few weeks ago, I saw a fight between neighbors -- one guy took a fist to the face. Blood, blood everywhere, spitting it out while he continued to fight.
What floored me (besides Zimmerman's apparant lack of visible injury) was the casualness of how the police treated him and walked him through the garage. He was actually walking BEHIND/AWAY FROM the officers at one point -- unbelievably sloppy of the cops to allow that.
This is really getting interesting.
Zimmerman is allowing his surrogates to go out there and tell his story -- he clearly has to stay out of sight until he can nail his story down based on what the evidence is no showing.
pacalo
(24,721 posts)I hope the public scrutiny & concern put the pressure on this police department to re-evaluate their value system.
scardycat
(169 posts)gets out of the car. Like he would any casual day. Doesnt look like he is sore or hurt anywhere to me.
99th_Monkey
(19,326 posts)That is inexcusable ... aren't these ABC people supposed to be state-of-the-art news producers?
What are they hiding? Why in the fuck would they do that? is way beyond me.
Swagman
(1,934 posts)an x-ray will show the break and how long ago it broke.
This tale is falling apart at the seems. If he had these injuries the cops would have called an ambulance/nurse or face a possible lawsuit.
Hubert Flottz
(37,726 posts)I call Bullshit on Zimmerman's tale.
soccer1
(343 posts)I would think that if Zimmerman's head had been repeatedly slammed against a sidewalk or even on grass, there would be a significant chance he would have suffered some level of a concussion. Even if there had been no blood from an abrasion on the back of his head, I would think that an EMT would put a bandage on the wound, after it was cleaned up, to help prevent infection. I don't know, I'm not an attorney, but I would think the self-defense claim would only stand up if his injuries were consistent with a life threatening situation. But maybe the "perceived threat" of the "stand your ground" law allows for killing a person if you just feel your life is in danger. Will be interesting to see what comes of this.
Iliyah
(25,111 posts)told his father what happened, Trayvon repeated bashing Zimmerman's head to the ground the police would suggest him to get a MRI or a head scan to make sure there were no internal injuries?