General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsSorry, I have to start a gun thread. Only to call out lunatics.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/04/29/gun-enthusiasts-stalk-and-threaten-ceo-after-she-develops-weapon-only-owner-can-fire/?utm_source=crowdignite.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=crowdignite.comI realize there's a more-or-less-matorium on these, but there's already one story on this, and I want to speak up.
So, A:
I feel confident saying I have presented a consistent and (IMO) well-argued pro-second-amendment position for basically all of my time at DU.
B:
Shit like this is exactly what people talk about when they say women are being kept down. They are. Death threats are not things to shrug off.
C:
This woman developed a technology that many of us gun owners have been asking for for years: if I could limit my guns' firing to the proximity of a bracelet, I would actually be much, much happier.
This woman is an entrepreneur with a pretty compelling idea... and she gets stuck with death and rape threats. For people who doubt the existence of the patriarchy, here it is, and appallingly (to me) it's claiming to act in support of a right I believe in. But the fact is, assaults like this are the greatest threat to the legitimate right for civilians to keep and bear arms that there is.
To put it more broadly, as one who believes in the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (RKBA): there is no greater threat in the long term to the RKBA than Wayne de la Pierre.
I do believe, in general, in the civilian right to bear arms. I even think it's important, for several reasons. But the fact is, that de la Pierre and his GOP cronies are going to keep pushing every extreme limit they can, until the backlash is such that there is no recognized right to keep and bear arms.
So, that was my gun thread. Women shouldn't be threatened with murder or sexual assault online. Women shouldn't be threatened for developing a technology that many many gun owners have been asking for for years. The general civilian right to bear arms is legitimate, but the people who claim to defend it are doing more harm to it than good. There is a better way.
chrisa
(4,524 posts)It goes with the whole pseudo "tough guy" culture that the NRA pushes. The bigger jerk you are, the closer you are to getting your "man card."
aikoaiko
(34,177 posts)Except for the part about wanting one, but I agree with everything else.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)And this woman developed one. Go her, right? This is a product I want, and people are denying my right to control my own firearms by threatening her for even making it.
aikoaiko
(34,177 posts)Criminal idiots in this case.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)need to be taken seriously and investigated. The technology will sink or swim on its own merits, hopefully without government pushing it while still "green," and hopefully without some crap ban on pre-"smartguns."
Who knows, in the future there may be completely new techs. which render firearms inferior in performance?
JJChambers
(1,115 posts)But this is a very silly product. When carrying a gun for self defense purposes, increasing the number of mechanical or technological interactions required to fire the gun will increase the likelihood of a malfunction at just the wrong time. It's why most cops carry Glocks (no manual external safety), and why I prefer to carry a Ruger LCR revolver.
No, a device like this woman is selling will not work for self defense. I could see something like this for a weapon strictly intended for target shooting.
PS: two threads about this woman's product have already been locked in GD -- one just this morning.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)as it seems to broad brush gun owners in a bad light and is OK in GD
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)is that what you're saying?
Logical
(22,457 posts)DanTex
(20,709 posts)it's not a silly product. They're afraid that people will understand that a smart gun provides all the benefits of gun ownership while reducing the risk. If smart guns become popular, that could lead some states to make the technology mandatory. Which, I would add, would be a pretty good idea.
If the NRA were truly confident that a smart gun was a silly product, you wouldn't see the death threats.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)No way technology will ever be able to be used with guns? Thought through this much?
JJChambers
(1,115 posts)Technology can streamline but it can also complicate. In this case, it complicates and isn't suitable for a self defense weapon. This technology is fine for a target-only weapon.
Once the technology is developed and perfected to the point that a separate device isn't required to be worn, it may become suitable for self defense purposes.
Logical
(22,457 posts)without throwing a fit like in this case.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Even the woman who invented it says it's not for all gun owners. But the vehement response of some shows that this isn't just a silly, useless thing.
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)But it's an added security feature in case your kids gain access to your guns, for example.
ucrdem
(15,512 posts)The rule you noted is meant as a guideline for the purpose of keeping GD discussions civilized, so as long as things don't get out of hand, you should be okay. But ultimately it's a decision arrived at by a consensus of GD hosts.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)... over tactics such as these will far overeach the reasonable laws that have been proposed (e.g., background checks).
hlthe2b
(102,322 posts)Thoughtful response to a baffling situation vis-a-vis this woman's invention and those one would have assumed to be her advocates.
*that we have pro-gun advocates on DU continuing to support LaPierre and NA is beyond comprehension to me and I dare say, to most DUers.
The NRA has lost its mind.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)I blew off the NRA years ago, in reaction to both their unreasonable intransigence on measures that make sense (and don't genuinely constitute infringement of the RKBA) and the fact that they have so completely thrown in with the GOP.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Codeine
(25,586 posts)with the Gungeon Gang. I support individual gun ownership and personally find the NRA and their shills revolting, and I know I'm far from unique in those positions here.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)are not members of the NRA. In fact I do not recall anyone saying they are in support of the NRA.
pipoman
(16,038 posts)So much that they threatened the maker..
The idea is very limited in utility. It doesn't sound like it can be retrofitted. Any attempt to mandate it's use would take a generation just to get through the courts. Thinking about the agreement of Smith and Wesson with the feds to install a lock on all of their handguns, and how that agreement nearly broke the company, negatively impacting their market share to this day, it isn't like any manufacturer would voluntarily embrace this. ..
spin
(17,493 posts)Perhaps it should have been offered as an accessory but installing it on all new S&W revolvers was a marketing disaster. Another factor which hurt sales of S&W revolvers with the lock was reports of the lock spontaneous locking. This actually happened to a shooter on a pistol range I was at and since I had a key on my keychain, I was able to unlock his firearm. I own several revolvers with this lock and have had no issues with them.
INTERNAL GUN LOCKS
Massad Ayoob
Thursday, September 3rd, 2009
Earlier blog posts on new Smith & Wesson products here in the last few weeks triggered a visceral storm of criticism in the Comments sections for S&s continued installation of an internal lock on most of their revolvers. The turn of the key locks the mechanism and renders the gun unshootable, even if it is fully loaded.
***snip***
My experience and research has shown that spontaneous locking of the guns during firing (characterized as an ILF, or Internal Lock Failure) has occurred, but rarely. It normally involves very powerful guns with very violent recoil, and also very light guns (Scandium, Titanium) firing these extremely hot rounds. The buffeting from the heavy kick seems to be whats jarring the parts out of alignment. However, one of our readers reported in the comments section that he saw an all-steel S&W spontaneously lock after it was accidentally dropped. Again, a violent impact to small parts seems to have been the culprit.
***snip***
Personally, all the S&W revolvers I carry or use for anything serious are older models without the locks. While Ive bought several of the lock-equipped later models, all but one were for sport. The single exception is the Model 340 Military & Police, a roughly 14-ounce five-shot pocket revolver chambered for .357 Magnum. This gun has a unique sight concept: a huge XS Tritium Big Dot front, and a humongous U-notch rear. Developed by S&W engineer Jason Dubois to the best of my knowledge, this arrangement allows the very rare combination of fast sight acquisition in poor light, AND extreme accuracy. This gun puts every shot in one hole at 7 yards if I do my part. Ive shot hell out of it with hot .357 Magnum loads and never had a spontaneous lock, but I still carry it with milder 135 grain Speer Gold Dot 135 grain +P .38 Special just to be sure. (And because, in a gun this light, the Magnum rounds are just painful to shoot.)
***snip***
Smith & Wesson makes their Military & Police semiautomatic pistol line with options: the customer can have it with or without manual thumb safety, and with or without internal magazine disconnector safety. I wish S&W would offer the same options with their revolvers, but its a much more complicated and expensive thing to do in revolver as opposed to pistol manufacture. In the meantime, we simply have the choice to buy a different brand. If you have chosen to remove the internal lock feature from your late-model S&W revolver, do yourself a favor and download copies of threads on gun forums in which this issue is discussed, and cases of lock failure are documented. Keep them on file. If you become the test case, that material may help to defuse arguments that removing THIS particular safety device means youre a reckless person.(...emphasis added)
http://backwoodshome.com/blogs/MassadAyoob/2009/09/03/internal-gun-locks/
pipoman
(16,038 posts)I seek out pre-lock guns....really like 'pinned and recessed'...so do others based on the prices...
spin
(17,493 posts)The lock did increase the value of the pre-lock revolvers I own.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)should not be tolerated. Put the device out there and let the market decide. I will not buy one, may be in some years after the police and military have them in use and prove they are robust and never cause a fail to fire. I prefer the simple mechanical operation now, fewer parts to malfunction.
Guns in GD, that is common place now
DashOneBravo
(2,679 posts)I'm a gun guy. No offence but I don't get the whining. So what?
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)just would like to get the SOP changed
DashOneBravo
(2,679 posts)That's whining
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)it is making a suggestion to the hosts of the forum.
Bonhomme Richard
(9,000 posts)had been threatened about carrying for sale those guns so he decided it wasn't worth it.
I am also a gun owner (who also supports limited magazine capacity) and the loudmouths, i.e. morons, disgust me.
sofa king
(10,857 posts)It's painfully obvious that the trogs are offended by the fact that the gun designer is a female.
No reasonable person would consider this design to be a threat to themselves and their own guns. So we are left with the unreasonable people who are doing such a fine job of bringing gun control upon themselves through just this sort of stupidity.
It is a little bit amusing to see the results: every day that the trogs succeed is another day that one of their kids kills another one of their kids, inexorably thinning the soup at the shallow end of the gene pool and building the case that rednecks are too damned stupid to own guns.
(Edit: You want an example? Here's one from TWO MINUTES AGO: http://www.clickorlando.com/news/central-florida-parents-arrested-after-son-shoots-friend/25771500 )
So attacking this person accelerates the approach of the day when people will be required to demonstrate competence before they can own a gun--something conservatives rightly fear. They fear it because as soon as incompetence can disarm conservatives, well, those dumb assholes will be running naked before Sean Hannity can tell them what to think.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Appalling.
BlancheSplanchnik
(20,219 posts)Which actually encompasses the WHOLE story.
If she were a man, scumbags might complain, the NRA might sabotage, but there would not be all out civilian (MALE civilian, that is) war on an individual.
Check blogs written by women...sorry I don't have links, but many have written about the phenomenon. Droves of MEN descend on women who dare to stand out, speak up, make a mark, step out of line. The tech-geek game world for example, is extremely hostile to female gamers, and all-out rage-drunk at women who blog as gaming and tech experts.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)No, not really...at least not in practice. There are several gun threads in GD that don't meet the "big news" requirement every day. So don't sweat it.
And yes, LaPierre is an absolute disaster for the cause of 2nd Amendment rights. Intransigence and fearmongering don't help anyone.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)It's not, as the NRA supporters here are insisting, because this is a bad product. It's the opposite. It's because gun advocates are afraid that this is actually a good product. Which it is, obviously. Assuming it works (and it's not a very complicated technology, in the day of iPhones and drones), it allows for all the benefits of gun ownership while significantly reducing the risks.
The big fear among gun advocates is that this will become a popular product, and after that some states will begin to require that new guns are sold with smart technology. Of course, given that they have a very powerful and well-funded lobbying organization, one strategy to combat this would be to lobby against it. But the gun advocates don't want to take that chance, and so they are trying to prevent the free market from speaking on it's own, by intimidating manufacturers and retailers that carry this product.
SQUEE
(1,315 posts)REQUIRING an unproven, overly expensive technology to become the only option for any handguns sold in those states, that is why some of us are leery. This tech is far from new tech, there have been numerous designs in this vein, none have proven reliable enough to bring to market.. It is far from a silver bullet to stop deaths, and considering the amount of dumb guns out there that will be grandfathered, it is not a "threat" to ownership in general, but it is an imposition to new owners.
Now as for the idiots threatening her, I have no use for bullies, and believe they should be prosecuted to fullest extent, the irony alone of them losing their gun rights makes me giggle, but having proven they are not capable of rational thought it is best hey been banned from ownership.
Make7
(8,543 posts)
[div class="excerpt" style="margin-left:1em; border:1px solid #bfbfbf; border-radius:0.4615em; box-shadow:-1px -1px 3px #999999 inset;"]No make or model of a handgun shall be deemed to be a "personalized handgun" unless the Attorney General has determined, through testing or other reasonable means, that the handgun meets any reliability standards that the manufacturer may require for its commercially available handguns that are not personalized or, if the manufacturer has no such reliability standards, the handgun meets the reliability standards generally used in the industry for commercially available handguns.[font style="font-size:0.8462em;"]
http://lis.njleg.state.nj.us/cgi-bin/om_isapi.dll?infobase=statutes.nfo&record=%7B1A78%7D&softpage=Document42[/font]
SQUEE
(1,315 posts)I have posted before, when the big EUROPEAN manufacturers can not provide a safe, reliable, and thoroughly tested platform,i will buy one. But why would I trust an unknown entity, with an extremely expensive, and in a useless caliber no less, when my life would be on the line..
There are numerous OVERCOMABLE obstacles, and I would purchase one in heartbeat and early on even. I am a strong proponent of gun safety, specifically storage and training. I see that as one of the best ways to reduce deaths and injuries, but this specific weapon is not the answer many are painting it to be.
When SIG or H&K bring one out, I'll be, literally, one of the first in line.
Make7
(8,543 posts)If the guns are as unreliable as some seem to believe, I would think it would be easy to demonstrate that a particular "smart gun" model was statistically less liable to fire than a comparable non-"smart gun".
If the state of New Jersey started to mandate that new handgun purchases be limited to "smart guns" when the approved models were provably less reliable, there would likely be no end to the lawsuits they would have to fight and the law would almost certainly be overturned, thus ruining the chances of similar laws being instituted for many years to come.
The NRA's response to the whole thing kind of reminds me of the Republicans reaction to ObamaCare - are they fighting it because they truly believe it will fail, or are they fighting because they actually think it will work?
SQUEE
(1,315 posts)How long would that take, what agency? NRA sponsored, Brady campaign or BATF, or??? what independent agency would both side agree on?
I don't believe they are unreliable, I AM certain though they are unproven and not rigourously tested.
The fact they are only offered in an extremely low powered cartridge does raise a red flag to me, also the lack of any track record from the manufacturer is another reason to be cautious. When, not if, a company with a reputation for quality does offer a smart gun, I will be one of the first in line.
The concept itself is perfect for a safer HD gun, one that will be able to be esily accessible, while being unusable to anyone but the designated operator(s).
But, yes a but, I am worried on both sides of the failure potential.
first actually is the reliance of people on the safety lock, if it is left about, or easily accessible, and the lock fails and the weapon works... second if it is needed and the lock fails and the user is left with nothing more than a small bludgeon. Testing is great, but as any rollout of a new OS shows, only in real world applications and situations are we going to really debug and prove a system works, idiot proofing needs exposure to idiots to be proven true.
In this situation, unlike a rushed beta testing, that could mean death or injury, not just a blue screen.
the NRA is notoriously anti progress, AND technology. Shit, for years it was tacitly opposed to modern rifles, is still oppsed to electronic triggers(as is the BATF) and does nothing to push for requiring intensive, realistic training for CCW, strong laws regarding storage or for civilian access to the FBI background check system, so I do not really listen to any of the bleatings from them, anymore than i listen to Bloomberg's puppet agencies.
rrneck
(17,671 posts)Guns have become such a potent symbol for people on both sides of the issue that almost no progress can be made to manage them legislatively or culturally.
User designated technology has promise but as it stands now the Armitrix iP1 is an eighteen hundred dollar tin can plinker. It's only offered in .22 caliber, which is not a good self defense round. It's a novelty item that only serious gun enthusiasts with lots of cash will buy. I don't know why they don't offer it in at least 9mm. It could be that the electronics inside the gun are too fragile to reliably withstand the pressures generated in a legitimate self defense caliber, but I don't know.
Armitrix is going to have a really hard time penetrating the gun market because guns have become such a symbol of salvation for conservatives and an equally powerful symbol of evil for liberals. Gun owners won't support the technology because they are afraid it will be mandated by government fiat before it is adequately tested and proven reliable. Their fears are justified given the inane and unworkable legislation that has come from the left in recent years.
The focus on regulating the design characteristics of guns as a solution to human violence has become a transparent joke. If the left had not expended so much political capital on laws that only address the cosmetic and ergonomic features of guns we might have enough credibility to help Armitrix penetrate the gun market. Unfortunately most liberals wouldn't be caught owning a gun at all, so the market for the iP1 is significantly reduced. The only people that might buy the damn thing are the people who wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole because their political opposites might like it.
uncle ray
(3,157 posts)"The only people that might buy the damn thing are the people who wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole because their political opposites might like it."
next thing you know, nobody will be buying them because the stores are sold out.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)used to jack up gun prices, be forced on citizens before it is proven, and be accompanied by declarations that older non-UDT arms are now outside the law. I'm sure there are some here who would like just that.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)krispos42
(49,445 posts)...and then banning them?
Assault-weapon bans are not the go-to, default, knee-jerk reaction to any shooting that makes the news?
Bear in mind that the rifle used in Newtown, which was supposed to be the "wake-up call", was not an "assault weapon" at the time it was bought or the time is was used in the slaughter at Sandy Hook Elementary. There has been an AWB in Connecticut since September 14th, 1994; it was originally the Federal ban, which Connecticut put into state law before the Federal ban expired a decade later.
And yet... immediate response? "We need to ban assault weapons!"
I guess making even more guns "assault weapons" (by legal definition) wasn't done by the Democrats, but by the six-armed aliens that live on Ganymede.
Democrats continue to lack credibility when they talk of regulating guns. Too many people are effectively clueless about guns and what laws like "assault weapon bans" really do. Too few people get worked up for making something they don't own and don't care to own tightly regulated; in contrast, lots of people get worked up when others make something they own more regulated. This is particularly true with the "feel good but effectively useless" legislation that is popular with, say, the VPC. And too many anti-gun people are just supporting any gun law that is proposed simply because it strikes a blow at the hated "gun culture".
Not that the Republicans are a joy to behold; their constant rhetoric about domestic insurgency and rebellion and "Second Amendment remedies" and "taking our country back" are, frankly, disturbing.
But the central issue is that owning a gun has become a political statement because Democrats are trying to wage a culture war against gun ownership. So gun owners become dragged into politics based on this issue, while non-gun-owners tend to not give a shit, or to at least give it a much lower priority, than gun owners.
spin
(17,493 posts)Paladin
(28,267 posts)As I have stated on multiple occasions during my time at DU, I used to be a shooting sports and hunting enthusiast. I gave all that up years ago, largely because of the right-wing radicalizing of the firearms issue in this country. The terroristic threats this woman is receiving are as unacceptable as they are typical. DU Gun Enthusiasts, it may be that this sick behavior is confined to a relatively small number of extremists---but the fact remains that those extremists are on your side of the argument. There's a world of difference between thoughtlessly posting a "Ban All Guns!" sentiment on a talk site, and phoning in a death or rape threat to somebody with whom you disagree.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Paladin
(28,267 posts)No, I didn't think so.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)You should review the journals here in DU. Old 60s expression: "murder-mouthing," but without mentioning names.
Paladin
(28,267 posts)Response to Recursion (Original post)
LeftishBrit This message was self-deleted by its author.
sarisataka
(18,705 posts)new technology is just that- new. Gun magazines are full of it (pun intended) every month. Gun owners can choose to use it or not. Some people will choose to use this technology, some will wait-and-see, some will never accept it; that is what the market is about.
To threaten the creator of new tech is beyond the pale. Holding claim to a right while trying to oppress another is illegal, immoral and hypocritical.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)I'm not against gun ownership. I'm against stupid gun ownership.
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)I would have thought every responsible gun owner would be in favour of such a technology. It prevents criminals from taking a cops gun away from him, it makes it much less likely that a kid is going to accidently shoot themselves or a playmate. There literally seems to be no downside here.
spin
(17,493 posts)A device like this might work well while plinking but fail during a target match costing the shooter a trophy. Worse yet, it might fail when the owner was using the weapon to stop a violent attack.
I worked in a highly technical field for many years and it amazed me how often I witnessed Murphy's Law in action.
I would be extremely reluctant to buy any firearm with this technology unless it had passed extensive testing and was proven in the field over a period of several years as 99.9% reliable.
I personally prefer revolvers over semiautomatic pistols for self defense as a revolver is more simply more reliable and far less ammunition sensitive. (Admittedly I am somewhat of a dinosaur.)
However if this technology is proven reliable, I can see some advantages in owning a firearm with it.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)adopt them soon, but I am not holding my breath. Maybe after they have been out and tested in real world environment for a while I might think about it.
DashOneBravo
(2,679 posts)At this point it's new technology. I wouldn't want a weapon that had a glitch when I needed it most. It needs time in the field.
I think they should introduce them first with range shooters and once they have proven themselves then move forward.
I don't know one person (that I shoot with) that wants to see another dead child.
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)Start with range shooting while teh kinks are worked out.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Any gun made by any reputable gun makes in the last few decades is extremely reliable. As long as you perform due diligence in maintenance and use decent, properly-loaded ammunition, it's going to be extremely reliable when shit hits the fan. The purely mechanical gun is a refined design, whether a semiauto or a revolver, and can be counted on to perform in a crisis.
Now this electrical and radio system adds all the potential failings associated with things like batteries and circuit boards and wiring. The user has to wear a watch to shoot the gun. The user has to input a PIN on the watch to authorize the gun and select a time span with which the gun will work.
The power question alone is a major issue, never mind about radio-wave blind spots and the requirement to wear a special article of jewelery.
Other people in the video are talking about palm-print scanners. Really? How is that going to work reliably and quickly? And how much battery power will this thing require to operate?
And if a smart gun is stolen, how long will it take to defeat the lockout mechanism? Will we be seeing smart guns with the mechanism bypassed in the hands of criminals? Probably.
Notice that the cops aren't using smart guns... why is that? The NYPD has some 30,000 cops; that's a market of 30,000 smart guns that is going to waste. Do you think the rank-and-file police officers would enjoy having smart guns forced upon them? If they wouldn't like it, why would you assume the gun-buying public will?
The final issue is one of choice. Mandating "smart guns" will produce a consumer backlash of people that can no longer buy the guns they are comfortable and familiar with, but are instead forced to purchase a single type of gun from a single, government-created monopoly.
If you want biometrics, you can put them on the gun safe where you store your purely-mechanical firearms.
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)Reliability is fair comment. Although, as the technology is refined, it should become less of an issue. I agree it's not suitable for every situation.
Palm-print scanners: I have seen prototypes of such scanners that can check and confirm an authorised print in a fraction of a second, literally less time than it takes to draw and aim. Granted, those are still a few years away from market though.
Finally, who is talking about mandating them? I certainly wasn't. In ten or twenty years, when the technology has been perfected and spread to many guns, maybe but not until then.
Incidently, I don't have a gun safe because I don't have any guns. My country (UK) banned all handguns in 1997 (in response to the Dunblane Massacre) and, even if I wanted to keep shooting with longarms, my license would have been revoked as soon as I was diagnosed mentally ill.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)But the future is not now. The current situation is that no reliable system exists, and neither the private nor government market is pushing the technology.
Making the gun know that you are, in fact, you, is something that the security industry has been struggling with for years. And the palmprint scanner... will if work if your hands are sweaty or dirty or, God forbid, bloody? How much leeway does the shooter have in hand placement? How does this work with gloves, or interchangeable grip panels?
The linked story in the OP had a interview with a Massachusetts legislator that wanted to make smart guns mandatory in two years. I think either New Jersey or California (or maybe both) passed laws years ago that once smart-gun technology was available and the patents had expired, they would become mandatory. I don't know if those laws are still in effect or anything, but that was my recollection.
DashOneBravo
(2,679 posts)"The NYPD has some 30,000 cops; that's a market of 30,000 smart guns that is going to waste. Do you think the rank-and-file police officers would enjoy having smart guns forced upon them? If they wouldn't like it, why would you assume the gun-buying public will? "
That's not a very high benchmark.
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)Do you guys ever consider people over your irrational need for lethal weapons.
The odds of needing a gun are quite small, less than the odds of needing a defibrillator. Yet, gun fanciers wouldn't dream of carrying a defibrillator. I guess it would be emasculating or something.
Similarly, the odds of a safety system malfunctioning is small. That makes the odds of needing a gun and this thing malfunctioning at the same time, so small that it's not even worth worrying about for the rational person.
Yet, all you guys can think of is your need for more guns in more places, on your terms. Nothing else matters.
Sorry, you were being boring again. Glad I remembered to cover my mouth; I wouldn't want to be rude or anything.
Well, since I'm awake now, then lets let the police departments, whose members have generally high odds of needing a gun that works reliably, blaze the trail for future smart guns.
And remember, nobody's trying to make you carry a gun, but you're trying awfully had to make everybody else not carry one. Ciao!
hack89
(39,171 posts)While retaining reliability?
That is the issue.
Prophet 451
(9,796 posts)The articles I've seen don't address that.
Trajan
(19,089 posts)That brings clarity to my perspective, and explains who is who in this 'Liberal' forum ...
This explains a lot about DU's nutty, right wing character of late ... it's the damned open gate in the Gungeon ...
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Of course, that wouldn't be very liberal of you. I've found that liberals tend to do best when expanding rights. But they get into real trouble restricting them.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Wouldn't your outrage be better directed at the police for their non-response to threats?
Would you agree to alcohol ignition interlock devices on all cars? It would probably save more lives.
Would you support horsepower limiters and GPS speed restrictions?
How many death threats do you think I would get if I sold the devices that would make these mandatory? Would you declare the SCCA or NHRA responsible?
Make7
(8,543 posts)This woman sounds like a fascist.
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)1)Her opinions won't change existing legislation. Her statements are pretty much irrelevant.
2)Why are you broad brushing millions of people for the criminal acts of a tiny fraction of the group?
Make7
(8,543 posts)Make7
(8,543 posts)It means that the requirements of this law have not yet been determined to have been met, and may never be before that provision ever goes into effect.
What do you honestly think the odds of that law being successfully enacted and enforced after the three year window closes?
And if it is enacted and enforced a few years from now, does that just mean someone needs to drive to Pennsylvania to buy a non-"smart gun"?
Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Driving to Pennsylvania to buy a handgun would be illegal. https://www.atf.gov/content/firearms-frequently-asked-questions-unlicensed-persons#gca-unlicensed-transfer
Make7
(8,543 posts)Taitertots
(7,745 posts)If the answer to that question is beyond your mental capacity to answer by yourself, then no amount of walking you through this will help you answer it.
Make7
(8,543 posts)Taitertots
(7,745 posts)Make7
(8,543 posts)Just because it might possibly trigger a provision in a law that could affect about 1% of the U.S. population? Is it because if that provision were to actually go into effect, it would mean that one of the major objections to the technology employed was demonstrably false?
Well, I guess that makes death threats okay in order to discourage people from buying something they feel will be a safer product for them.
Perhaps that explains it...
AcertainLiz
(863 posts)Well regulated militias. I'd be okay with what Thomas Jefferson proposed, mandatory military service in a militia then keep your weapon at home or in a storehouse. Yeah by proving you can use it and be trusted with it, I'm fine with that. It wasn't intended for anyone to buy an AR-15 from Wal-Mart, and the situation we have now is totally insane.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)rights being anything other than individual. Militia, governments (including those of states), and communities do not have Constitutional rights. They have powers accorded to them by law. If the militia somehow had "rights," that would fly in the face of how the rest of the Constitution is viewed: A document recognizing individual rights. The powers allowing for the call up and governance of militia are described in Article 1.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Both recognize that the 2A protects an individual right to keep and bear arms.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)M16 or M4 at home as I have been fully trained and served in the military and am now part of the reserves?
Hoyt
(54,770 posts)ronnie624
(5,764 posts)Response to Recursion (Original post)
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Response to Recursion (Original post)
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