Women

[boston bean]

Did you trap your husband into marriage by getting pregnant.

I read right here on the good ole DU that :"MANY" women do this. I don't think this is true. Never mind all the stereotypical/sexist bullshit that comes with such declarations.

30 votes, 1 pass | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes
	3 (10%)
	No
	27 (90%)
	1 DU member did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[Shandris]

1. I was tempted to hit 'yes' just for giggles...

...but then I figured someone was bound to take it seriously and use it as 'proof' or something.

But I had to choose pass as I'm unmarried.

And no, 'many' women don't do this. If you think 'many' women do this, you need to put some kind of defining qualifier on 'many' or seek professional help.

[boston bean]

2. Never mind the fact that men have a responsibility in this as well.

Unless the many they were talking about were putting holes into their boyfriends condoms or reversing their vasectomies, I just can't see how anyone could call themselves "trapped".

[Shandris]

5. Oh, I can see how they'd consider themselves trapped.

Its simple, really. "Do I, in hindsight, think there should have been absolutely no responsibility on my part? I do? TRAPPED!"

[mercuryblues]

53. seems like

at least 3 men did just that. I bet all 4 of the yes votes are men.

So what does that prove?

Most likely 4 men on DU intentionally got their partner pregnant to get them to marry them. Kind of disproves the stereotypical theory that only women do this.

[DesertFlower]

3. i could have answered "yes". i was

pregnant when i married my first husband in 1960. i didn't deliberately get pregnant. abortion was not legal and back then i was catholic and wouldn't have had one. i thought it was wrong. we only lasted 6 years -- we were not meant to be together.

i've since changed my mind and i'm pro choice.

my 2nd husband and i decided we didn't want children.

[boston bean]

6. Right. You didn't trap him.

But I'm sure you know how women who become pregnant prior to marriage are looked at.

Societies whispering... she trapped him.... Or men who feel it is only a womans responsibility not to get pregnant and feel if she does, well then... he was trapped.

[DesertFlower]

8. it was 1960 and coming from a catholic

family it was a big deal. women who got pregnant out of wedlock were not nice girls. my grandma was very upset. god forbid the neighbors would find out.

i was fired from my job at a bank. that would never happen today. manager said "too much talk was going on". we really needed the money too. back then you were allowed to work until you were 4 or 5 months pregnant as long as you were married.

[boston bean]

10. yep. I completely understand.

Somehow some way it's always the womans fault or in someway immoral.

[GOPee]

244. Well, I guess I can no longer speak for young women anymore. Ha!

But in my day.. cough.. I am sure if this happened. ha.. it was more prevalent. You are correct family issues was a major factor. I know girls that we knew were not pregnant, that did trap the guy in this manor. It was bad then, it is worse now, while we have, the pill, condoms, and abortion available. We had family reputations at stake.

To say it doesn't happen is a lie.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

4. yes, of course i do, and by that i mean i am sure some raging misogynist thinks so. nt

[seabeyond]

7. Report Details Sabotage of Birth Control

Men who abuse women physically and emotionally may also sabotage their partners’ birth control, pressuring them to become pregnant against their will, new reports suggest.

*

“It was very eye-opening,” said Lisa James, director of health at the Family Violence Prevention Fund in San Francisco, which worked with the hot line on the report. “There were stories about men refusing to wear a condom, forcing sex without a condom, poking holes in condoms, flushing birth control pills down the toilet.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/15/health/research/15pregnant.html?_r=1&

In some abusive relationships, men may use strategies to force women to become pregnant, including sabotaging their birth control, researchers say.

Nearly 20 percent of women at family clinics across northern California reported that their partner tried to coerce them into having a child, sometimes using methods such as poking holes in condoms or flushing birth control pills down the toilet, Dr. Elizabeth Miller of the University of California Davis and colleagues reported online in the journal Contraception.

"It was stunning to have this many women seeking reproductive health services saying, 'this has happened to me,'" lead study author Miller said. She added that the reasons men would want their partners to bear children vary "from things like wanting to leave a legacy, to a straightforward desire for attachment, to having absolute control over her body... There are all of these elements to

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/domestic-abuse-abusive-men-sabotage-birth-control/story?id=9639340

[redqueen]

69. Thanks for sharing this here. Funny how no one has anything to say about it.

[seabeyond]

71. a good indication of the misogyny, willfully, when it is an equal gender opportunity, but the finger

only points one way.

when it is about manipulating, lying or greed it is all woman, hear eve roar.

[Go Vols]

9. I vote yes

Last edited Sun May 4, 2014, 01:03 AM - Edit history (1)

because it happened to me twice with the same woman.I left her and moved 600 miles away when the kids were 5 and 8 and did quite well raising them alone.


Edit: I erred on my vote as I was victim and not the instigator,leave vote tho.

[question everything]

11. Another misogynistic wave on DU

tell me something new.

[Blue_In_AK]

12. I was five months pregnant when my ex and I got married,

but there was no "trapping" involved. I didn't care if we got married or not, but one day we just decided to do it, got the license and were married about three days later.

[boston bean]

13. right.

Since you did not get pregnant for the sole intention of making him marry you, you trapped no one.

That was the gist of what was being said.... Get pregnant to force someone to marry them.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

14. CFLDem ... haha. funny.

[seaglass]

78. Totally unsurprising - a definite pattern. n/t

[seabeyond]

81. uh hu. lol. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

82. No Call Outs. Nothing to see here. Move along, Folks. Keep it moving. n/t

[seabeyond]

85. yup. lol. nt

[sabrina 1]

15. Why is this an issue? A majority of women don't use pregnancy to trap someone, but SOME women do.

I did not nor would not. But I do have a friend who admitted she 'stopped using birth control in order to get pregnant because her boyfriend at the time, didn't want to get married. It worked, he 'did the right thing'. Their marriage lasted three years, she cheated on him.

Human beings are complex. Out of that relationship a beautiful child was born. Both of his parents loved him, both went their own ways. Who knows, he might be the next rocket scientist so perhaps her decision was a great contribution to society.

It's called 'life'. Not a big deal, but, yes, it DOES happen.

[Niceguy1]

36. my girlfriends

Sister did when she thought her bf was going to leave her

[seabeyond]

64. my brother did when he knew his wife was gonna walk.

[kcr]

63. Yup

You're so right. SOME do. My best friend's cousin's sister's accountant admitted to me to that she did the same thing. It's TOTALLY true. Why IS this an issue? It DOES happen.

[Gormy Cuss]

76. How exactly was that trapping him?

He didn't have to get married. He could have chosen to be a father and support his child without marriage.

[CrispyQ]

97. +1! -nt

[Demeter]

103. NO one is "TRAPPED"

Marriage has always been an "option". Try and make a man marry if he doesn't want to, pregnant or not.

There isn't any force on earth that can do that (not in this country). There is no coercion.

[Major Nikon]

162. ...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

177. If anyone is doing the :trapping: there --

Last edited Mon May 5, 2014, 12:22 PM - Edit history (2)

It is = THE MAN WITH THE GUN and NOT the LADY WITH THE BIG BELLY.

[seabeyond]

240. just another ugly caricature of women, that grown men like to giggle over.

po po men.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

241. well, honestly - nobody in that picture is what I woud call good-looking ...

[11 Bravo]

238. So are you saying that this entire poll is bullshit?

[Demeter]

256. Why, now that you mention it, I guess I am

If at some later date the man decides he was "trapped", that's buyer's remorse, not entrapment.

[ismnotwasm]

16. Fuck no

I'd get an abortion before I'd do that shit. Provided we still keep our human right to have one.

Truth to tell I shit canned both of my natural born children's fathers. Didn't marry them didn't have anything to do with them, from the time I found out I was was pregnant. I figured if they were all excited about being daddies they'd step up. They didn't. And I was fine with that. Relieved even. They're all grown now and better for not having those assholes in there lives. My husband-- a good, decent man is the Father they know.

[seabeyond]

17. sheeeit. for years, i wanted the baby, not the husband. nt

[oneofthe99]

18. I wouldn't say many but some do

[seabeyond]

20. and some men poke holes in their condoms. flush pills down the toilet or hide them.

a lot fo times it is the abusers and it is their way to control women.

[oneofthe99]

33. It can happen both ways

Some people have mental issues where they should seek professional help with.

Sadly sometimes they never do and the children see it growing up in the dysfunctional household.

Then as they grow older it starts all over again. Never ending cycle

[seabeyond]

34. It was stupid ass sexist garbage putting that in the other thread with the mere purpose

Of once again creating women as greedy manipulative liars. Which is the point to this op.

[Gravitycollapse]

21. What value constitutes "some" to you?

[oneofthe99]

23. Google it , 1000's of articles written about it in magazines ,books

Some are women's magazines that tell women it is ill advised to get pregnant in order to keep a man they think is going to leave.

This isn't some new thing we just discovered in 2014 on DU

[Gravitycollapse]

26. You didn't answer my question. What value constitutes "some" to you?

Some represents a quantity. What quantity to you represents some?

[oneofthe99]

28. Look up the definition of some

an unspecified amount or number

[Gravitycollapse]

29. Would you say some is more than one?

[oneofthe99]

32. word games

[Gravitycollapse]

35. I'm just wondering what constitutes some in your eyes. One or two? a few dozen?

Hundreds? Thousands?

[LanternWaste]

189. Seems more like evasion on your part

Seems less like word games on their part and more like evasion on your part.

[Gravitycollapse]

19. Remember, Eve ruined it for everyone. Women are good for nothing tricksters that cannot be trusted.

Or so the mythology goes. For hundreds or even thousands of years, women have been subject to vicious stereotypes that they're inherently devious and manipulative, lying to get what they want from men.

This is all fear based. Men subjugate women to these unreal roles to justify their own perceived purity. Even the pure women are secretly devilish, according to this sort of thinking. They are lying in wait for the best moment to lash out and strike men down with their female poison.

[seabeyond]

22. yup... personally, i put the blame on weak willed adam who shifts the blame and cannot own

his own behavior.

[Gravitycollapse]

24. Eating fruit from the tree of knowledge was the right thing to do.

It always has been. Eve was and continues to be an unsung hero of humanity. She saved us from the intellectually crippling realm of total servitude.

Adam was God fearing. There's nothing noble about bowing down before your master. He was a coward.

[seabeyond]

25. ha ha. i have never heard it argued that way. i love it. thanks. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

27. Don't thank me. Thank Eve. She's the Rebel Girl of the Old Testament.

[seabeyond]

30. ya. i kinda like the story of lilith.

i have been going to do the research on that, pre eve, i just keep forgetting to get on it.

[boston bean]

41. No, that is not what is said.

In a womans eye, walking in the dark alone in a parking garage or down the street, every man they encounter in these situations, they feel could be a potential rapist to them. It is a fear women live with. And that is because we fear rape. Why do we fear rape? The rape culture in this country. It limits our usage of public space and leave us with less liberty.

Jesus Christ, people just don't listen. No one says 'men are all rapists'.

[Squinch]

51. Are you trying say something? Because this was never said by anyone here.

Not sure why you would feel the need to blurt it out of the blue like that. Is there something you are trying communicate here?

[Gravitycollapse]

84. Why would you ask me such a stupid question?

[seabeyond]

87. yes. i would like to know also. i have asked a handful of poster, that say... all men are rapists

but i have yet to have one of these men tell me, why they would think such garbage.

and not a one can or will give me an answer. i just keep hearing them continually put out..... feminists say, all men are rapists.

not one feminist has said.

yet... it is repeated over and over and over. on du.

wait....

hm...

isnt that what MRA tells men to say, over and over and over, even though no feminist said that.

i am thinking i read an article on it not too long ago. a couple OPs about it. pretty sure MRA tell men to repeat.... feminists say.... all men are rapist.

would that be manipulating the audience though? you know, dishonest?

[Gravitycollapse]

136. Whatever the intention, the post is now hidden.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your alert
Mail Message
On Sun May 4, 2014, 06:21 PM you sent an alert on the following post:

And men are all rapists
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4907122

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

This is a troll post if I've ever seen one. No other intention in this thread than to instigate more conflict on DU.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Sun May 4, 2014, 06:29 PM, and voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: In context, I can see no point in this comment.
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Misogynistic claptrap.
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Deliberate flamebait, the post has nothing to do with the substance of the poll even tangentially. It is inappropriate and over-the-top. It meets the criteria for hiding it.
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Stupid post, but not outrageous so as to deserve a hide. Best antidote is an intelligent response, not a rush to hide.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This post accuses in a coarse way. Not up to the standards of reasonable debate.

Thank you.

[babylonsister]

31. What's it to you?

And no. Passion all the way. Sort of.

[The Straight Story]

37. I read right here on DU that basically:

That people who own guns are nuts, will shoot you, etc and so on. When less than one percent use their guns in such a way. That translates into "Many".

That "Men" only help women because they are acting in a benevolent way (we think women are weak or we only want to have sex with them), we just like to jack off to any image of women we see, and we as a whole are generally just bad. I see time and again that a woman's personal anecdotes on their encounters with men is met with 'yeah, pretty much' kind of attitude which translates to 'many'.

"Many" Christians are seen as 'bad' (over 2 billion in the world) based on what some do.

Some man says something negative about/to a woman on Du and suddenly it is DU not just that one poster.

And when someone speaks up and says 'wait a sec' they get branded as yet another uncaring male on DU based on what some other one did.

And now you are upset because one person here said "many"?

[murielm99]

39. Thanks for defying the groupthink around here.

I know I will get in trouble for calling it that.

But sometimes we obsess here instead of having honest discussion.

[boston bean]

40. It stereotypical sexist bullshit that I am calling out.

Either you agree that it is sexist stereotypical bullshit, or you don't.

[Squinch]

102. DOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRSSSSS!!!!!

[Scootaloo]

130. Men, gun lovers, and christians don't get posts hoping for death-by-rape directed at them

You know, sort of like how straight people on DU don't get told to "wait their turn" in elections, and white DU'ers don't have to put up with people explaining why a guy who kills a white kid isn't a murderer and it's not racist to say so.

Context matters

[The Straight Story]

134. I am guessing that person was trolling and not a regular DU member

Oh...and....let me guess. It WAS hidden and the poster banned.

[Scootaloo]

143. Correct on the second, "depends" on the prior

And point remains - these other groups aren't dealing with that bullshit, are they?

[LanternWaste]

215. poster "finally" banned. Fixed for relevant accuracy.

poster "finally" banned. Fixed for relevant accuracy.

[B Calm]

42. I voted NO for my wife.

I had to propose to her 2 times before she said yes. We been married now for 38 years.

[yuiyoshida]

43. Is it okay just to say

I dun think I ever want to get married? Ever? Oh yeah, I might meet someone someday, but I doubt I want to... the world is too freaking crazy.

[boston bean]

45. Of course.

Even if a woman became pregnant by you, it is not necessary to marry her.

[yuiyoshida]

46. That, my dear would be impossible seeing as

I don't own a device for implanting any biological material into another woman. OH WAIT....you thought I was a guy? I guess I need to be showing my face better in my future posts.

[boston bean]

47. oh, sorry...

Either way you don't have to get married to anyone.

[yuiyoshida]

48. Here..I hope people can see me more clearly now...

all
me and my Toshiba Excite™ 7c Tablet (8GB) at the ball park.

[boston bean]

49. I didn't know that was you.

again, my apologies!

[yuiyoshida]

50. Yup..

Last edited Sun May 4, 2014, 04:32 PM - Edit history (1)

*waves like crazy* (taken from the Ball park)

[hfojvt]

107. I heard there was a DU rule

that said you have to marry the first person who congratulates you on 20,000 posts if they do it within two weeks.

[Scootaloo]

131. Hey, you know with the wonders of modern medicine... n/t

[yuiyoshida]

142. You mean like a portable unit

with fresh bio material for inserting and implanting do-it-yourself kit.

[LeftishBrit]

44. Well, I'm not married; but I don't know anyone who HAS done that

I do, however, know plenty of couples who have kids, but never actually bothered to get married.

[Violet_Crumble]

52. Same here...

I just don't see how being pregnant means you should get married. I'm a single mum, my pregnancy was an accident, and not once did the thought of marriage occur to me. He was fun to be with when I didn't have any responsibilities, but once I decided to go ahead with the pregnancy, marrying a massive stoner like him would have been the worst thing ever I could have done for myself and my baby...

[Squinch]

54. In all my years of life, I've never known anyone to do this. But consider this:

Last edited Mon May 5, 2014, 10:42 PM - Edit history (1)

We are blessed to live in a culture where we can be sexual without being committed. HOWEVER, with this blessing come risks.

A woman is always aware that she can get pregnant by mistake. She accepts the possibility that a certain amount of her fate might not be in her hands. If she does get pregnant, she may want an abortion and the man might be against that, and she might consequently need to fight for her rights. She may want to raise the child with the man, and he might disappear. She might want to raise the child without the man, and he may insist on being part of her life forever after.

Men often seem to think they are immune from these risks. We have a lot of threads here that say that a man has equal rights to the child, a man should be able to be in the birthing room against the mother's wishes, a man's wishes are paramount.

Here's what those men need to get: If they choose to have sex with a woman to whom they are not committed, they are taking a risk that things might not go exactly as they want them to. A certain amount of their fate is no longer in their hands.

A man needs to take responsibility for his own fertility just like we always tell women to do. If a man doesn't want to be "tricked" into marriage, he needs to grow up and get himself a vasectomy or roll on that condom and roll the dice. If he doesn't want the child, he needs to prevent the conception of the child. Just like women have always needed to do.

And before the usual suspects accuse me of prudery, this has nothing to do with that. This has to do with the obvious biological consequences of having sex outside of a committed relationship.

[davidn3600]

59. Does a woman not have any responsibility for sexual activity?

That seems to be what you are saying here...

If a woman gets pregnant and it's a mistake, she can get an abortion and it wont threaten her financial future. But if she wants the child, the man is trapped by that decision. He will be hounded for child support and be thrown in prison if he doesn't pay. Her decision changes his life.

Telling a man he had a choice by not keeping his pants on is like telling a woman she shouldnt have opened her legs. Sorry, but it truly does take two to tango. A woman is just as responsible for consensual sex as the man.

[boston bean]

60. Again, the choice for men who do not want to have babies

is to make choices that make it unlikely to happen.

It is not only the women who have choices and responsibility, the men do as well.

[davidn3600]

61. But the same thing could be said for a woman...

Isnt that what the far-right argues...that if you dont want a baby, just don't have sex. That's exactly what you are saying here.

What you are saying doesnt change the fact that if a mistake happens, a woman can fix it by getting an abortion. A man has no way for him to fix that mistake if she chooses to have the child.

[seabeyond]

65. when he starts carrying a baby. why you leave out the obvious for your argument is telling.

it is like the, in your face... duh

she is carrying the baby. her body, her health is being effected. that would be the relative difference as you insist on making this equal... tit for tat, one the same as the other.

one is not the same as the other. so the very start of your argument is a fail.

[Nevernose]

216. I quote Monty Python:

I want to have babies. It's every man's right to have babies!

But, you can't have babies!

Don't you go oppressing me!

I'm not oppressing you, Stan, you haven't got a womb! Where's the fetus gonna gestate, a box?

This same argument comes up every time. And while, in one very strange sense, it makes logical sense, in a very biological sense it's ridiculous. It would be like me demanding a Pap smear or a woman arguing for free prostate check-ups.

[pipi_k]

70. I don't see

that here.

What I see is that men have choices that do still involve being able to have sex.

Condoms.

Vasectomy if he's sure he doesn't want kids. They're reversible. A BIL had a reversal and then went on to father three more children (besides the 5 he had from a previous marriage).

Proof from his sex partner that she's on some kind of birth control.

And if said sexual partner doesn't want to provide proof, then he finds someone else who does.

There are always choices...

[boston bean]

72. NO, that is not what I am saying.

Read it again.

[Squinch]

90. You are now claiming that what I specifically argued against was "exactly what I was saying."

Seriously, dude. Either you're just being intentionally obtuse, or you need to stop responding to posts you haven't read.

[Scootaloo]

132. Nope, we guys have no recourse if our partner decides to keep a surprise pregnancy.

However, that's not politics; that's biology. The female has more of a vote on reproduction than the male, in nearly every species that has at least those two genders. Of course in every species like this, it is the female who pays the higher cost from reproduction

Biology is not fair between the genders when it comes to reproduction. Frankly there's no way to write a law to invent parity that doesn't actually skew things the other way, giving the male a bigger say than the female - especially when you consider the risks and costs of pregnancy, childbirth, and rearing the child.

It's just one of those things you've gotta tough up and deal with, really.

[Nevernose]

217. You have the same rights to an abortion that a woman does

And when you get pregnant, an abortion will (hopefully) be a safe, legal option. If you buy some of that Obamacare insurance, you can get your Fallopian tubes and uterus and cervix checked out, too. Women can get vasectomies and have their prostates fingered, as well.

Any problems with which sex gets which options in life, sometimes it's politics and sometimes it's biology.

[Squinch]

88. David, re-read my post. You seem to have missed most of what I said.

[Amaril]

188. You think a woman doesn't pay..............

......a price in that scenario? You think child support covers the entire cost of housing, feeding, clothing, educating and caring for a child? I've got news for you -- in most cases, it doesn't even cover a fraction of the actual cost.

Look, it really is just this simple..........if a MAN doesn't want to have a child, then HE needs to take steps to ensure that HE doesn't impregnate someone. You are -- presumably -- an adult if you are having sex with a woman, and; therefore, legally responsible for YOUR reproductive actions. It is not a woman's responsibility to make sure that YOU do not become a father before you're ready, so, if you don't want that to happen, then, yes, YOU need to make sure it doesn't happen. They're your sperm, get them under control -- don't deposit them where and when you don't want to create a child.

[redqueen]

62. Thank you. I can't believe I'm reading this bullshit here.

Yeah, women can get pregnant all by themselves. The men are just helpless bystanders.

Oh, no, wait, I totally can.

And I am SO not surprised to see which DUers are spewing it.

[seabeyond]

66. and then the argument is the same for both. one has to totally leave out the fact a woman has the

baby. to even begin to make that argument. too absurd.

[Squinch]

92. I know. When we start a conversation here, we should just make a list up front of which

of our "allies" are going to galumph their way into it and spew crap. We can probably write out all the crap they are going to spew as well, because it never changes. Think of all the time and effort we'd save.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

227. YES. YES. YES. Same ones doing the same thing, over and over again.

[Squinch]

246. Next time one of these threads come up, we really should to that. Part of the Bingo series!

We can PM with the names so we aren't calling out.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

253. BINGO!

[Tuesday Afternoon]

226. THANK YOU, SQUINCH. WISH YOUR POST WAS AN OP. I WOULD K&R IT.

[freshwest]

255. Best explanation of real life, right there. n/t

[etherealtruth]

55. I guess "stereotypical/sexist bullshit"

... meets community standards here.

[Squinch]

91. That becomes clearer every day.

[pipi_k]

56. Three marriages...

and none of them happened on account of a pregnancy.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

57. A comment from a guy (and, hence, not a poll participant)

Do (present tense) many women do this? No. That answer should be self evident to anyone, as there is not nearly the stigma attached to unwed parenthood that there was 40+ years ago. Pregnancy is no longer an effective lever to get anyone to the altar. If a couple were otherwise committed, and a pregnancy occurred, it might encourage them to marry, but it's simply not an effective entrapment device in 2014.

Did this practice exist at one time? Yes, and I'm aware of at least one occurrence of this in friends of the family. I've also heard older women in the family discuss the practice anecdotally. Was it common? Marriage due to unplanned pregnancy was, of course, common prior to -- let's say 1985 (arbitrary pick on my part). Was entrapment common? My guess is that it took place, but was not an everyday happening.

[seabeyond]

67. and men equally used pregnancy as a means to get married too. that is the problem

with using these sexist finger pointing to vilify a gender. that finger does not point one way, only shows the sexism highlighted that we point the finger one way to vilify.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

68. clarification ... pretty sure some men have paticipated in this poll. Pretty sure CFLDem is a man.

Although, keeping in mind, This IS the internet ...

[seabeyond]

74. it appears four MEN used deceit getting woman preg to force her into marriage, or not leaving them.

isnt that what is being said? or did i get it wrong?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

75. that is my take on this situation. Laughably insulting to all involved.

<---- me, laughing ironically.

[Squinch]

93. It appears you are correct. How pitiful of them.

[seabeyond]

94. well. kinda wrong too. lol. off to spend time with teenage son. we just

had a conversation about his 180 iq, the thread, boys are being let down in school..... his ability to not do shit, get relatively good grades and since pre k, having a teacher wrapped around his finger. lol

that would be the diplomat.

my oldest argued himself out of every little thing. teachers merely gave up.

[Squinch]

95. Lol! Sounds like they have some great lives ahead of them. Enjoy the day!

I just planted some azaleas and begonias, and the lavender weeping redbud is starting to bud!

[seabeyond]

96. excellent stuff. i am skipping gardening this year and miss it. nt

[Z_I_Peevey]

58. I've been married more than once,

and in each case, it was the guy who wanted the whole ring-and-ceremony crap. Me? Not so much.

I guess I was trapped into marriage by my own acquiescence to the prevailing cultural norms. I am older and wiser now.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

73. This whole premise of "trapping" is offensive to men and women. It absolves men from

any accountability/culpability of their actions. That the woman got pregnant is one thing but, that the man is "guilt-ed" into marrying her
takes it to whole other level of degradation.

[Iggo]

77. Women: I'm for them.

Big, big fan. From way back.

Oh, that's not the poll?

[Beacool]

79. I don't think that men are such a prize that I would burden myself with a kid just to "trap" one.

If I want to be with a guy I will, if I don't, I won't. I can live perfectly well with or without a man in my life. What century are we in?

[pipi_k]

80. hahahaa...no doubt

it's the ones who aren't exactly prizes who are running around thinking they are.

One guy I lived with was convinced I was trying to "gaff" him (his words) somehow.

Nearly 20 years later I can't even imagine why I put up with his shit as long as I did (almost five years, which isn't an eternity except when you're with a jackass) and I thank my lucky stars that we ended the relationship.

[Beacool]

89. I was always the same way.

Even as a high school kid. I never thought that men in general were "all that". I liked specific ones, but if they didn't treat me right I was out of there. Having been raised in a family of intellectuals where I was the only child (everyone else, including my brother, was an adult); I was well read and traveled. Boys my age usually bored me pretty quickly. I have never stayed in a relationship out of fear of being alone or defined myself through a man.

[Starry Messenger]

83. My husband-to-be already had a son from a previous relationship.

I encouraged step-son to go to college, and we kept our expenses down to pay to send him and now he's graduated and has a good job. I guess that doesn't make me enough of a bitch though, so stories like mine don't count to lady-haters.

[seabeyond]

86. ya. nt

[moriah]

98. I suspect my ex's ex-wife deliberately got pregnant and hid the pregnancy until it was too late.

However, my ex loves his daughter, and said it was his responsibility no matter how the baby got started, because the root of how it got started was him putting his penis in her vagina. The marriage failed after the second child when he got a vasectomy, and she's had her third child with her new husband.

But I have no proof. And it's the only case I've ever known of personally where it was even possible.

[BainsBane]

99. That someone made that comment

(and I have no idea who it was) shows a profound contempt for women.

[etherealtruth]

100. The comment was alerted on and allowed to stand

What does that say?

[SheilaT]

101. Because women magically get pregnant on their own, right?

All men need to assume equal responsibility for any possible pregnancy if they are having sex with a woman. I've long told my sons that it may not be fair, but it is right that a woman gets to decide whether to keep or abort a pregnancy. And either way it may be entirely against his wishes.

There are many degrees of opinion about getting married before or after making a baby. I'm of the: Get Married First contingent, but I know lots of people who don't feel that way.

In the past there were many bitter and vicious wars fought over whether women deliberately got pregnant to trap a guy, with many men here expressing complete and total non responsibility for a pregnancy or child. If you think fathering a child with a specific woman isn't a very good idea, then either use the most foolproof birth control you can, or don't have sex with her.

[rrneck]

104. Alternate poll premise...

How many women on DU will admit to trapping their husbands into marriage?

[etherealtruth]

105. Your post implies you believe this to be a wide spread problem....?

I have no doubt it happens occasionally, as does men intentionally impregnating women in order to trap them ... wide spread "problem" .... issue of concern .... probably not.

In days gone by (fifty or so years ago, prior to reliable and available birth control), unintended pregnancy probably "trapped" both men and women into marriages that they perhaps were not ready for or did not want.

I have never actually known someone to "deviously" trap or coerce someone else into marriage through intentional pregnancy.

[rrneck]

106. There is no such implication.

It implies a foolish poll. How many women would go on record perpetrating such a thing? On DU3 poll votes are transparent.

The poll proves absolutely nothing about coerced marriage through planned pregnancy. But BB got a nice little hundred or so post thread out of it. Bravo.

[BainsBane]

108. The real question

is why the misogynist idea that such behavior is widespread is allowed on a site that is supposed to be progressive.
Additionally, whoever suggests such behavior takes place must believe this is the nineteenth century.

[rrneck]

111. Don't say that.

Your reason is the answer to your question.

[etherealtruth]

110. Actually five people admitted to using pregnancy coercion

... and some older members described unintended pregnancy that did lead to marriage.

An internet poll is unreliable, of course; however, it (the thread and poll) certainly led to much discussion. Much more than the post stating that women "proposed' marriage to men via intentionally pregnancy (coercion), which was patently offensive to women (and I hope to thinking men)
I did find an interesting paper on coerced marriage and pregnancy http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2322&context=facpub

Intimate partners coerce thousands of women in the U.S. into pregnancy each year through acts that deliberately interfere with the use of, or access to, contraception or abortion. Although the harm of forced sex has been well identified in our cultural dialogue and in our laws, the harm of pregnancy through reproductive coercion remains largely unrecognized in both spheres.

[rrneck]

112. Your post is much more helpful and imformative than the OP. nt

[BainsBane]

113. at least two of the respondants to yes

are male, whereas the other three don't indicate their gender in their profiles.

[etherealtruth]

115. I just assumed the posters identifying themselves as men were admitting to

... intentionally impregnating someone in order to coerce marriage

[Ms. Toad]

122. Read the thread -

One of them claims his girlfriend trapped him into marriage by getting pregnant. Twice.

[etherealtruth]

124. Doesn't say much for him, I would think

Twice.

I think we should assume the poster "on suspension" was simply admitting his mis-deeds

I did find an interesting link on coerced marriage and pregnancy which led me to ASSUME the posters voting yes were men admitting they had used pregnancy of a partner to to coerce them into marriage or "other" (I did post this link in another response in this thread)

http://scholarship.law.georgetown.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2322&context=facpub

Intimate partners coerce thousands of women in the U.S. into pregnancy each year through acts that deliberately interfere with the use of, or access to, contraception or abortion. Although the harm of forced sex has been well identified in our cultural dialogue and in our laws, the harm of pregnancy through reproductive coercion remains largely unrecognized in both spheres.

[seabeyond]

127. 4 out of 5 are men that I know. I too assume they manipulated a preg on gf/wife

To get married/not leave him

[etherealtruth]

128. It was my first thought

[Scootaloo]

133. I can't fathom that.

The idea of being "trapped into marriage" is just ludicrous

[etherealtruth]

137. Of course it is

I do think I would qualify that with the word "now" .... I can see folk 50 years ago (and back) feeling that they were trapped into marriages they may have not wanted or been ready for at a time prior to effective and readily available birth control and at a time when society did not accept "out-of wedlock" births. (by folk I am referring to both men and women)

I can imagine some folk feeling trapped or forced. Mercifully, that is not true now. There are options for both parties.

If a child is born, one cannot evade responsibility for that child (or one should not) but it is ridiculous to say anyone in this culture has been trapped into marriage (it is ludicrous).

[BainsBane]

140. I wouldn't assume that at all

particularly since the label of the OP is women. I took it as messing around.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

166. If by messing around, you mean pulling a prank on the polling numbers then I agree with you.

just joking around and screwing up the poll numbers for whatever reason.

[TorchTheWitch]

242. ^^^THIS^^^

[Ms. Toad]

121. I see I'm late to the game -

I had discovered (and just posted) the same thing.

[Ms. Toad]

120. Just so you know -

One of those is a self-identified male who was "trapped" twice by the same woman. No word on whether she concurs with his characterization.

Another is a DU member currently suspended from posting for having 5 hidden posts - who also appears to be male based on the hidden post.

The other three I can't easily tell about.

I started looking at who answered "yes" once the self-identified male posted in this thread outing himself (and refusing to change his vote).

[etherealtruth]

126. ... by the way

I alerted on the original ignorant post stating that women "proposed" by intentionally getting pregnant.

I found it repugnant and not born out of truth ... the jury did not agree (which speaks volumes for DU, as far as I am concerned).

[BainsBane]

141. As does the fact some who claim to be feminist

find this poll more objectionable than the statement that prompted it. Some of those same people who regularly rail against the horrors of HOF feminists discussing sexism, yet don't voice any disapproval for someone wishing one of those same feminists to be raped and killed.

[etherealtruth]

156. Wait ... what ....?

I want to clarify before I respond .... do you think I 1) find this poll objectionable .... More importantly 2) do you think I would not be HORRIFIED by someone expressing that anyone "be raped and killed"


Just to clarify my position I thought this thread was born from the idiotic post in an idiotic thread (flamebait thread). I had hoped DU as a collective body would have hidden the post that led to this one (thinking we would say :this garbage is not acceptable and move on ... the vote was 3-4 to leave it alone).

The "raped and killed" stuff is beyond revolting ... but again, not entirely surprising. We tolerate a lot of misogyny here .... I could see those with less restraint becoming emboldened by what is allowed (and then crossing all lines of human decency)

[BainsBane]

157. No, no. I don't

I wasn't referring to you. I'm sorry I was so vague I gave that impression.

I understood you agreed with me and was simply commenting on some criticism in this thread.

[etherealtruth]

159. Whew .... good

My posting is not always clear ... I thought perhaps I had given the impression that I somehow wasn't appalled by the overt and covert misogyny here.

[polly7]

116. +1000!

But, of course it happens. Women/girls do stupid, life-altering things all the time, as do men and boys. Because a poster mentioned that it does happen, of course an internet poll is needed to prove ....... something or other. And, if it can be made to devolve into an all-out gender war, well ............ YAY!!!

[rrneck]

117. It's always fun to watch and see who sits in the eye of the hurricane. nt

[LadyHawkAZ]

118. Bingo! n/t

[The Straight Story]

135. Well, it it happened to one poster/post it is 'many'. Just don't apply that definition

to other things.

[seabeyond]

109. Nasty nasty

[rrneck]

114. Most push polls are. nt

[BainsBane]

138. Naturally some see the fact she posted a poll about this

worse that someone on this site actually promotes such a view. That really is the problem. That people who complain about women "attacking women" line up to again attack women is just the icing on the cake. The fact that some people think critiquing sexism is worse than actually engaging it (and the same with racism) says a lot about who people are. But then we all know maintaining silence is essential to perpetrating injustice. The "gender war" is not condemning half the population as manipulative but rather drawing attention to the fact someone did that.

A key denier of sexism and misogyny was Vashta Neranda. He began by insisting that our culture did not teach women to coddle men and ended by insulting a feminist--much maligned by the same people crying "gender wars" in response to your post--by wishing for her to be raped and killed. Did they speak out against that? No. Instead, they object to a poll and discussions of sexism. It's always interesting to see what people consider objectionable.

[rrneck]

144. How would anyone know worse from better?

The OP is based on a paraphrase of what some other member said. Some vague point of contention has been lifted completely out of context and used for some purpose other than elucidating the societal problems you so vociferously decry.

Looks like just another DU inside scrum to me.

[BainsBane]

146. "out of context"

I do not know the context. That is correct. I do not know who or where the original comment was made. I have, however, seen several posters express dismay that someone said "many women" behave in such a way, not that it occurs among some. I can't imagine a context in which that would reflect anything other than contempt for women.

I'll wager a guess it was someone older than myself, since nobody, or virtually nobody, gets married because they are pregnant, and haven't for my entire lifetime.

[rrneck]

148. Yes, yes, yes.

It's all deliciously vague. Just the thing for a bit of culture war rabble rousing.

[BainsBane]

149. Feel free to provide the link

[rrneck]

151. What makes you think I have a link?

It wouldn't even be appropriate in a thread built on a push poll.

[BainsBane]

153. The way you were going on about context

made me think you knew about the original post.

[rrneck]

154. No. I'm afraid not.

The point was that there is no objective context. A hundred links wouldn't matter. If the OP wanted to make a legitimate point she is quite capable of producing something specific to talk about.

[BainsBane]

155. Back to my original point

Regardless of context, there is no way in which this poll can be seen as worse than VN telling a woman he wanted her to be raped and killed.

[rrneck]

158. How are we to tell without a link to the quote to evaluate it?

It in no way can be seen as worse than anchovies on pizza either. Your comparison is absurd. You'll always be able to find something worse to compare it to.

[BainsBane]

160. My comparison is a very real one

that occurred two days ago. "How are we to tell." All one needs is a conscience. A poll, any poll, does not compare to threats of death and rape on any scale of human decency.

[rrneck]

161. Um,

"some see the fact she posted a poll about this worse that someone on this site actually promotes such a view..."

And from there you find an example to which you compare an evaluation of what you say some people think. No test tubes were harmed in the production of this opinion.

Deliciously vague with a cherry on top.

[BainsBane]

167. As I said

what someone objects to reveals a great deal, as does what one does not object to. There is nothing vague about my point about a poll vs. a threats of death and rape, of the sort Vasta Neranda made against a feminist. That you pretend there is some sort of equivalency between this thread and those threats speaks volumes. You have made yourself perfectly clear in this exchange.

[rrneck]

182. It's still a false equivalency.

You are the one who introduced Vasta Neranda into the discussion. And I still haven't seen a link related to this travesty of human interaction. What that has to do with a push poll about the possibility of coerced relationships I have no idea. You're right. The nature of one's objections reveal a great deal about them.

Let's take a closer look at post #138.

Naturally some see the fact she posted a poll about this worse that someone on this site actually promotes such a view.

How can anyone think anything is worse when we don't even know what we're talking about? I still don't see any links, quotes or anything else.

That really is the problem. That people who complain about women "attacking women" line up to again attack women is just the icing on the cake. The fact that some people think critiquing sexism is worse than actually engaging it (and the same with racism) says a lot about who people are. But then we all know maintaining silence is essential to perpetrating injustice. The "gender war" is not condemning half the population as manipulative but rather drawing attention to the fact someone did that.

This is word salad. It is a critique about a conversation that has no subject.

A key denier of sexism and misogyny was Vashta Neranda. He began by insisting that our culture did not teach women to coddle men and ended by insulting a feminist--much maligned by the same people crying "gender wars" in response to your post--by wishing for her to be raped and killed. Did they speak out against that? No. Instead, they object to a poll and discussions of sexism. It's always interesting to see what people consider objectionable.

And since we didn't have a subject to begin with, you helpfully provide one. That's how you leap from one outrage to another with no visible means of support for either. Your post, like the OP, is just an excuse to sound off for your own entertainment.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

145. That implication is inherent in this poll already.

The phrase: "willing to admit" is implied.

[rrneck]

147. It's just another push poll.

No different from the old saw, "When did you stop beating your wife". If a woman votes "yes" they are obviously willing to admit that they trapped their husband with a pregnancy. The poll question asks for a "no" vote, but since there is a "yes" option, the implication is in the poll.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

163. Derp. Please refr to post #152 in this thread.

[rrneck]

164. Not too sure what to make of that.

Of course the fact that someone cannot be coerced does not mean the attempt will not be made. But if we assume that men cannot be coerced, does that not assume that men are without the sensibilities that would be used as a lever for coercion?

It's a pretty convenient bit of thinking. It is impossible to "trap" a man into marriage with a pregnancy. That impossibility precludes any parental feelings the man may have toward the child. So of course men are unfeeling brutes that don't care for their progeny beyond the impregnation of as many women as possible. Slick. A nice bit of airtight circular reasoning.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

165. good lord, rrneck. I feel sorry for you. I really do. I never realized how truly pitiful you are.

I think the only one thinking all that is =you=

[rrneck]

168. I'm just following the reasoning presented to me.

There are many ways to coerce someone to do something. You can threaten to take away something of value to them. If there is simply no way to coerce a man to marry, there must be no way to threaten him with the loss of his progeny. That can only be the case if it is not possible for a man to care about his child.

As a reminder, this is the post we are talking about:

152. The whole idea is ludicrous.
The idea that a woman could "trap" a man into marriage assumes men don't have free agency to do whatever the fuck they want. The whole premise is fucking absurd.

When you follow the reasoning of that opinion to its conclusion, you actually dehumanize men by accusing them of lacking the capacity for emotional attachment. The above is an expression of an extreme ideological position that dehumanizes men through an assertion of the powerlessness of women.

Do you not think the father of a child would not go to great lengths to care for it, even to the point of entering into or staying in an unhappy marriage for the sake of the child? Haven't you ever heard of a think like that happening?

[boston bean]

169. Sorry, not going to dehumanize woman in favor

of allowing men the power over womens free agency.

Your argument, although stated with quite a bit of obsfucation, is nothing more than giving men control over womens bodies.

Sorry, but we women are the ones who become pregnant, and get to make those decisions about our body. After the fact, if a baby is carried to term, those are where the mens rights as a father comes into play. They don't have to marry anyone. No woman can force a man to marry them. If he did, it is still ultimately his decision to do so.

You think you have a better way, spit it out, please.

[rrneck]

179. Of course I have a better way.

It's the way designed by evolution. It's called male parental involvement. And male parental involvement does not begin at the birth of the child. It begins with knowledge of pregnancy. In our modern culture it begins with the decision to allow the pregnancy to happen or to continue the relationship with the woman in the event of an unexpected pregnancy. That's called a theory of mind. All mentally healthy humans have this capacity. That's what makes us human.

If men had evolved without any compassion for their progeny beyond the continuation of their DNA infanticide by men would be a cultural norm. Or do you think it is not possible for a man to care about his own children? Do you really think that a man's love for his children only begins at the moment of birth? Do you think that for two million years men have not been aware of the difficulties and dangers of gestation? Do you really think that the underpinnings of human relationships are not largely the result of the need for cooperation between a man and a woman to insure the gestation and birth of a helpless premature infant?

The lengths people go to preserve a disembodied ideology never ceases to amaze me. The decision whether or not to have children is shared by both women and men. If the man is expected to aid the woman throughout the course of the pregnancy and the life of the child after birth, the man has a say in whether or not the pregnancy should happen. The cooperation between a man and a woman in the rearing of children is called a relationship. That relationship does not spring into being at the moment of childbirth.

In this day and age people know how babies get made and part of any relationship between sexually active men and women is the consideration of when pregnancies will happen. People do it every day. Some call it planned parenthood. Sometimes surprises happen and people deal with them. And in a few rare occasions, surprises are contrived. I don't know why I have to explain this to an adult.

[boston bean]

192. No, men have no say over whether a woman has an abortion or not.

They can lend their opinion, but that's about it. It is up to the woman to decide if she will carry a pregnancy to term or not.

Why don't you just come out and say what you really mean?

Secondly, we are talking about men who feel women trapped them into marriage by getting pregnant on purpose and feel that it is a common occurrence. We aren't talking about people in committed relationships discussing having children. Now, go speak down to someone else please. Your high horse aint as high as you believe it is.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

171. That is THE WHOLE POINT. You are arguing FOR the purpose of THIS thread.

to :trap: a man .... is absurd. good lord, rrneck. You use pretty words and talk big but, you honestly have no clue, do you?

Or is it just that pride that will not let you admit you are wrong. That you have learned something and from women, no less.

[rrneck]

174. Are women perfect? nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

175. rrneck, after reading what all you have to say in this thread and the priorities you choose to rally

I really think you and I have nothing further to discuss.

Please LOOK at the question you just asked me and THINK about WHAT you just wrote.

Hubris does not look good on you.

[rrneck]

180. It's a fairly simple question.

Are women perfect?

You can run away if you want. Nobody can make you answer. But you should understand, and I think you do, that the answer is painfully obvious.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

181. dude, you have lost it. I really hope this is your online persona you are trying to save face with

here and not how you are in real life but, honestly, I am beginning to wonder.

[rrneck]

183. Can't do it. Okay. nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

186. You are right. I can't do it. I can not sink that low. Leaving you twisting in the wind.

Good luck to you rrneck. I hope you find some happiness somewhere along the way. Peace.

[rrneck]

191. I'll answer for you.

Women are human. Human beings are not perfect. We have evolved the ability to deceive each other and ourselves. That ability can be used for good or ill. It's really just that simple.

This silly thread and it's silly poll are designed to create a conversation about a conversation based on an impression of what some unnamed person said. It has nothing to do with men, women, pregnancy, relationships, ethics, reality or truth. It is designed to stir partisan passions for their own sake. Hell, it doesn't even reach beyond DU into the world of disembodied ideology beyond this site.

All I have done here is drag reality into a self serving emotional shitfest. Sooner or later a simple question with an obvious answer throws a monkey wrench into the conversation. Happens every time.

[boston bean]

193. This thread was started to discuss the sexist tropes

that women use pregnancy to trap men into marriage.

You however, wouldn't like to discuss that aspect. You want to go on and on and conflate other issues into proving that the trope isn't sexist. Keep on keepin on, but know you aren't fooling anyone.

No matter how intellectual you think you sound..... It comes off as someone who can't grasp the actual discussion.

[rrneck]

197. Ah. So we'rediscussing sexist tropes.

A discussion about an impression of what certain unnamed people say about how they feel.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

194. I really don't think you have done what You think have done here. Good bye, rrneck.

[rrneck]

196. Prove it. ntt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

200. oh dear. you did that yourself. I have never seen a circle more completely drawn than what you

displayed here in this thread. Truly, a work of art. I will give you credit for that.

See you around since you won't say good-bye.

[rrneck]

201. Okay.

But understand that fleeing after a bit of snark does the cause of feminism no great service. If you had the strength of your apparent convictions you would deal with the obvious problems I have pointed out.

Right here right now this conversation means little. But if we want meaningful public policy put forward by electable representatives we should strive to embrace an ideology that serves something beyond our own emotional self interest.

This OP is a fine example of how not to do that.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

203. actually, this conversation meant a lot to me. it is the one where I say good bye to someone whom

Last edited Mon May 5, 2014, 02:55 PM - Edit history (1)

I once had a lot of respect. You, however, are fit to categorize this conversation any way you choose.

I can take no more of your pseudo-intellectualism.

I thought you were better than that.

I should have known differently after the Rape Porn discussion.

You think you are on a High Horse and you may be (I won't argue that) but, its a big mud puddle you be riding in.

See you on the other side.

[BainsBane]

172. ridiculous

Millions of American men are fathers, and very good fathers, to their children outside of marriage. The only thing having a biological child compels a man to do is pay child support.

Men who see women as by nature deceitful do neither the women nor the child any favors by marrying. No child should grow up being exposed to a parent who harbors such views toward half the human race.

Additionally, I recall someone saying that saving children's lives did not justify a gun owner's having to go through the inconvenience of expanded background checks or limits on magazine sizes. Yet here you argue a man would feel so responsible for an unborn child he would enter into a marriage against his will, but not background checks. Something doesn't add up.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

176. He has twisted his morals into some of the most curled pretzel logic I have ever witnessed.

I know. I was there for all of it, too. His :perfect: ideologies could not be tarnished by the blood of a child. Then he uses the child as a shield in this scenario.

This has been some of the most twisted illogical, immoral, unethical, unemphatic reasoning I have ever witnessed on DU.

[rrneck]

184. Leapng leaping...

The only thing having a biological child compels a man to do is pay child support.

So men are not compelled by any sense of morality or compassion? That's pretty dehumanizing.

Men who see women as by nature deceitful do neither the women nor the child any favors by marrying.

Yep. How many men are we talking about here, hmmmm? And before you answer remember, you will be trying to draw a number from your evaluation of how you think somebody else feels. Tough to do unless you're just flogging a disembodied ideology for your own entertainment.

Additionally, I recall someone saying that saving children's lives did not justify a gun owner's having to go through the inconvenience of expanded background checks or limits on magazine sizes. Yet here you argue a man would feel so responsible for an unborn child he would enter into a marriage against his will, but not background checks. Something doesn't add up.

And finally, you find your way to an unsubstantiated "plea for the children" related to guns. I saw that one coming a mile away.

[tkmorris]

211. Human Beings as a group have a remarkable capacity to engage in deceit of all kinds

I have not noticed that one gender engages in it to any greater or lesser extent than the other. I have however noticed that both genders engage in it to a depressing degree. Their goals are often different but the methods are strikingly similar.

Further, you will find a great number of men believe that the BEST way to raise a child is as part of a traditional family. I offer no judgement on whether they are correct in favoring such an arrangement; I merely note that they often do. Such men can and will sometimes decide that a marriage is the appropriate response to the news that their lady friend is pregnant.

And further still, who expands their view of a single individual to encompass every single member of that gender? I have known women that I could not possibly tolerate for more than 30 seconds, as you have known men you felt similarly towards. Neither of us extend that view to ALL men or women.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

212. if you think this to be true:

Such men can and will sometimes decide that a marriage is the appropriate response to the news that their lady friend is pregnant.

Then, by default, you are arguing for the premise of the poll because in no way has the woman :trapped: the man in your scenario.

There is NO all in the poll.

[BainsBane]

213. This was not a reference to the fact that some women

behave that way, but rather the argument that it is commonplace, as though it were the typical way women operate. THAT is what is offensive.

If a man believes a child should be raised within a marriage, that is HIS decision. The woman doesn't force him to take that view, and she cannot force him to marry her. The days of shotgun weddings are long past.

[AngryAmish]

225. Depends on the population of males you talk to

Ask the players in the English Premier League if this is a topic of concern.

[BainsBane]

232. Yes, well I was referring to people in this century

and the last. YMMV.

[lumberjack_jeff]

222. It's not a matter of belief.

A biological father in the home is a strongly protective factor against abuse and one of the strongest predictors of positive health, behavioral and educational outcomes.

http://www.fatherhood.org/father-absence-statistics

[BainsBane]

249. Then there is this

But what the pregnancy manuals don’t mention is a chilling fact that has been buried in death statistics for many years: Murder is now believed to be responsible for more pregnancy-associated deaths in this country than any other single cause, including medical complications such as embolism or hemorrhaging.

http://www.salon.com/2003/02/27/pregnancy_death/

In 2001, Cheng and Dr. Isabelle Horon conducted a study in Maryland to determine the leading cause of death among pregnant women from 1993 to 1998.

Of the 247 women who died while pregnant, homicide was found to be the leading cause of death, accounting for about 20 percent of the cases.

"Women tend to think pregnancy is a safety zone, especially if they are already in an abusive relationship," Cheng said. "But what we're seeing is that no woman is safe from domestic violence or its most severe consequences."

Fear of fatherhood

Though very few pregnant women actually become victims of homicide out of the 688 women murdered in Maryland over that five-year period, only 50 were pregnant such figures reveal a chilling trend.

As more statistics on pregnancy-related mortality become available, experts are beginning to see pregnancy as an aggravating factor that increases a woman's risk of being murdered.

"Pregnancy is obviously a big, life-changing event, especially for a man. The emotional and financial responsibilities involved are huge stones around their necks," said Pat Brown, a criminal profiler and president of the Sexual Homicide Exchange.

However, Brown said, if something happens to the wife and child, those responsibilities disappear.

"If he doesn't want the child, why doesn't he just leave her?" she said. "He can do that, but that doesn't eliminate the responsibilities: child support, alimony, then as they get older, the kids want to see you. It never ends."

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/US/law/12/11/court.archive.peterson8/

[ismnotwasm]

119. Hey I didn't know you could vote in a poll when you're on review?

Or perhaps that happened afterwords? ( just looking at who would actually "trap" someone--isn't this the 21st century anyway?---by getting pregnant)

[Ms. Toad]

123. One is actually suspended from posting.

I have a question to the admins about that - I didn't think that was supposed to happen, either.

[seabeyond]

125. 5 hides out a poster can PM, recommend. Two or more hides in 24 hours

The poster is flagged for review. They cannot PM or rec I do not believe until administration lifts flag

[Ms. Toad]

129. The one I'm talking about has 5 hides

with a transparency page visible.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=305929&sub=trans

[Tuesday Afternoon]

178. Therefore, he can vote in polls and send PMs. Only when One is Flagged For Review is when

Full Lock Out happens.

[Ms. Toad]

190. Just got that clarification via ATA.

I had looked, and did not see anything addressing poll participation one way or another.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

195. word. official. yes. thanks for the confirmation.

[McCamy Taylor]

139. You can't make a guy get married. You can make him pay child support.

So whoever posted the part about "trapping" him must not know much about men.

[BainsBane]

150. exactly

or was living in another era.

[MadrasT]

152. The whole idea is ludicrous.

The idea that a woman could "trap" a man into marriage assumes men don't have free agency to do whatever the fuck they want.

The whole premise is fucking absurd.

[Capt. Obvious]

170. Is this poll meant for older women?

Who gets married these days due to pregnancy?

[snooper2]

173. I knew she wanted a kitten LOL

[MissMillie]

185. I got pregnant

I never got married

[uppityperson]

187. Hell no. It went the other way. I got pregnant and my ex badgered me into getting married

"it would make my mother happy. it would make me happy. it would make your mother happy. aren't you planning on staying with me anyway?"

Well, no, not necessarily dude. And no, it would not "make my mother happy", it did not make her happy to have me badgered. I read the marriage statutes in the state, who owned what prior to the marriage, how it was divided after the divorce, and simply signed those papers.

3 years and $30,000 later, was back to where I was before. Unmarried with my child. A lot poorer, but where I wanted to be. And yeah, I am THAT sort of uppity person.

[Rex]

199. I've known a lot of couples that got married after finding out she was pregnant.

Never did it seem like it was out of 'duty', both people seemed happy and couldn't wait to start a family. Of course said couples were looking seriously at a relationship with each other.

OTOH, I have no doubt that does happen...since humans have such a wide range of intentions when it comes to relationships. Does it happen often? From what I've experienced in life I would say NO.

Can't discount it, because it is a probability. Just like there is a chance the guy might flee and want nothing to do with the child or the soon to me mom.

These things do happen.

[pintobean]

202. Uh-0h, Rex

You've applied logic and displayed an understanding of the human experience, as well as our diverse society. Prepare to defend yourself.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

204. Actually, He upheld what the poll is about, whether it was his intention or not, I don't know

nor really care anymore.

This thread has run its course.

[Rex]

207. If all things are at least possible, then someone (more than likely) out there did such an act.

Otherwise there really are only about 100 stars in the sky!

[Zorra]

205. This does happen occasionally. Years ago, a detestable, dishonest woman I know told her boyfriend,

who was a good friend, and member of my band, that she was unable to bear children.

A year later, she was pregnant. She swore she was told by doctors that there was no possibility of her conceiving

My friend was a very honest, responsible, sensitive, loyal, and committed, but very naive young man, and he married this woman, who is just the most genuinely shallow, conniving, manipulative, generally awful person, from my POV. I saw through her, and couldn't stand her from the moment I laid eyes on her, which was before my friend knew her.

He now works as a businessman, and has been chronically in debt, and terribly depressed and on anti-depressants, for many years now. He became depressed after learning that this phony, horrid person he married was cheating on him with one of his friends. I was shocked when I heard he was on anti-depressants. He was such a lovely, happy go lucky kid when I knew him, and I knew him very well.

After I found about her affair, I tried to convince him to leave her and take the child with him any way he could swing it, but he adores his child, and, I believe primarily due to his intense, hard core religious brainwashing as a child, refuses to split the family up under any circumstances. He is, by all accounts, a really committed great dad. I haven't spoken with him for years now, but get news from a former partner who is related to him.

I have to give her credit, her predatory instincts were right on the mark; I doubt she could have found another human being who could have put up with her lying bullshit for so long.

That said, I've never known of any other man who was "trapped" into marriage like this.

[lumberjack_jeff]

206. When I was seventeen, I was told this by a girlfriend.

"My doctor says I can never have children"

We broke up before testing the assertion.

She had one about 3 years later.

I don't think she wanted to trap me into marriage, she just wanted a baby and an unwitting partner would have been acceptable.

In retrospect, I don't think she was a bad person, just broken.

[Zorra]

208. The woman I was referring to reminds me a great deal of George W. Bush.

From the moment I saw her my instincts warned me "Danger: Deadly, mean ass poisonous snake, avoid at all cost or you will sustain major damage".

To my knowledge, my friend never tested the assertion; the deed was done, and he didn't see what good it would do, the child was going to be born, and he was (snark *probably*) the father.

However, no matter how unhappy my friend is, I believe that he wouldn't trade the child's existence for anything in the world.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

214. but, Zorra ... can you not see that it is HIS own values that have :trapped: him.

He could CHOOSE differently but, he CHOSE (due to some skewed value system) to marry and remain married to this woman and (it sounds like) at the expense of his own mental, emotional, and physical health.

You can't trap the willing. You can set the noose but, they hang their own self.

[lumberjack_jeff]

219. "You can set the noose but, they hang their own self."

This must be a comforting world view.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

221. or you can throw them the rope, their choice how to use it and honestly after reading some of the

stuff you have written I really don't care what you think or how you sit in judge of me.

You with your banning me from TMG and, then allowing a HUGE fuck TA thread to go on in there when I could not go in there and defend myself even IF I wanted to.

and then, -so- gallant of you to use year end as an excuse to sweep clean you Ban List.

Yeah, your actions speak Loud and Clear to me, Jeff.

[lumberjack_jeff]

228. I'm not the one defending the actions of Zorra's "awful" acquaintance.

Last edited Mon May 5, 2014, 11:38 PM - Edit history (1)

I think it's interesting that you describe the guy's perceived obligation to his children as a product of a "skewed values system".

I didn't unban you for your benefit or out of any sense of gallantry. I did it for the benefit of the group. You're just words on my screen - ethically questionable ones, but letters and numbers nonetheless.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

229. I defended NOTHING about THAT woman. SAID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT HER AT ALL.

[lumberjack_jeff]

233. Everyone's world view is valid because it is valid to them.

My question of you is this: do you hold the view you expressed here because you're a feminist? Despite the fact that you're a feminist?

..or is your perception of feminism broad enough that it can encompass your belief that he's a sucker who got what he deserved ("hanged himself&quot ?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

235. why do you care what I think after all those names you just called me?

[lumberjack_jeff]

236. I'm always curious about how people acquire the views they hold.

I'm not so much interested in what you think as why.

I'm not going to prejudge where they came from, that's why I asked you.

[The Straight Story]

220. "You can't trap the willing" Like those who stay in an abusive relationship

And feel trapped &quot due to some skewed value system)"

I guess you can't keep the willing trapped. Seems to sound different when you change the people and situations.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

223. wow. You really did just equate domestic violence and spouse abuse with a man

CHOOSING to marry and REMAIN married when he is obviously unhappy and seems to have the monetary wherewithal to CHANGE his situation IF he so CHOSE.

You really did that.

really.

did.

that.

wow.

[The Straight Story]

230. No, I simply used the same ideals behind what you said

And showed how when applied to another situation suddenly the ideals don't hold up.

So either you believe what you said or you don't. Or do you only believe women can feel trapped and have that feeling justified? Are you saying women are weaker than men mentally? That sounds a little sexist to me.

Personally I feel both men and women can feel trapped by things and it is not as black and white as "well, this is best for so I will just do it".

But I guess men can't be victims of society, norms, and a lot of others things. Which, again, sounds a little sexist and not very progressive.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

231. I didn't say anything about any of that. what you are doing is trying to put words in my mouth

and then saying that it sounds sexist to you.

Well you said it NOT ME.

anyone can feel trapped. what actions they take to change the situation is up to them.

emotional entrapment is not the same as being held physically hostage.

[treestar]

239. The abused spouses are already married

That's very different from making the affirmative act of marrying someone when you don't want to really.

the abused spouse is already invested in the relationship, may know it is most dangerous upon leaving, hope they'll change, etc.

[seabeyond]

243. the man fears for his life, with good reason? can you post a more absurd/insulting analogy? nt

[The Straight Story]

250. What I was saying:

but, Zorra ... can you not see that it is HIS own values that have :trapped: him.

He could CHOOSE differently but, he CHOSE (due to some skewed value system) to marry and remain married to this woman and (it sounds like) at the expense of his own mental, emotional, and physical health.

You can't trap the willing. You can set the noose but, they hang their own self.

Was the post I replied to.

The logic in that is a person makes their own choices based on their own skewed value systems and if they stay with someone over x they are hanging themselves (the last line). Therefore a person is responsible for staying in a situation they don't want to be in, no excuses except your own 'skewed value system'.

And that logic/ideal can be applied to other situations but suddenly some folks think that when applied to women they are somehow exempt from the same logic/ideals. Which is to say 'women can't do the same thing a man can so let us benevolently treat her and not make her responsible/strong enough'. IOW treat women different because you think they are weaker and don't apply the same values to them because you don't think they have the strength to be equal.

I see it all the time. Woman drowns her kids in a tub, not her fault, she is not responsible she was just weak minded and easily controlled. IE, women aren't strong enough to be accountable for their own actions. That sort of logic opens all sorts of doors and makes women look weak and not equal in the eyes of others.

[seabeyond]

252. it fails. one is worried about being fuckin MURDERED. you get that, right?

[Squinch]

248. You know you are comparing apples to giant squids here, right? There is no relationship between

the two situations.

But I am pretty sure you are fully aware of that.

[Zorra]

245. Yes, I get that as well; and people can be manipulated by recognizing and playing

on their value systems.

Politician: I'm ethically bound to regulate your banks.

Banksters: If you do, we'll kill your family.

Politician: OK, I won't regulate your banks.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

247. yes, I really hope this man can come to grips with all this. He deserves to have a chance at

happiness. I wonder if he would try some therapy, might help with the depression and get him motivated.

[Xithras]

234. Yes. It's uncommon but there are always examples of even the most detestable behaviors.

Happened to a guy I knew in college too. Some local loser (and I use that pejorative because she really was a high school dropout druggie with absolutely no future) who ran in some of the same circles decided that he'd make a great "baby daddy" and started pursuing him. They hooked up once, he decided that he wasn't interested anymore once he got to know her, and left it at that. She wouldn't take no for an answer, called him all the time, would hang out outside of his classes waiting for him, etc. Today we'd call it stalking, but we didn't have the awareness of it...or our modern laws against it...back then. About two months later he was falling down drunk at a party (far beyond the point of consent) when she found him, got him into a back room, and had unprotected sex with him twice. He was a stickler for condoms, and that was actually the first unprotected sex he'd had in his life.

A few months later, after she'd confirmed the pregnancy and they'd married in Tahoe (as he put it: "I have to protect my kid from this psychopath, and I can't do that two weekends a month&quot she actually admitted that she'd done it on purpose to trap him. There was even a comment once that suggested that she might have spiked his drink, but that could never be proven.

Luckily she miscarried at five months. He literally (no exaggeration whatsoever) had divorce papers in her hand three hours after the doctor confirmed the miscarriage, while she was still in the hospital waiting for a D&C. By the time she got back home, everything he owned was out of their apartment.

The last I heard of her, she'd become a meth junkie and had spent a ton of time in prison for various petty crimes (mostly theft). Nobody who knew her is surprised by that fate.

Sadly, there really are people that scummy in the world.

[Zorra]

251. Yep. No gender has exclusive monopoly on scumbags. nt

[The Straight Story]

209. Wait a minute.......I am sensing some benevolent stuff here

Ya see I have been seeing here that "A man can't be trapped. He has a choice. Doesn't have to get married." etc.

Ok, see I like that. It is, at the base, truth.

But then I recall how people around here treat women differently. They talk about psychological issues and situations and even though they are not 'forced' into something they really kind of are (she stayed out of fear of losing everything, she drowned her kids because her husband was controlling, she learned that marrying that kind of man was expected of her and her only way out, etc).

So what I am hearing is "Men are strong, women are weak" in that we know a man doesn't Have to marry someone but in the case of the man we discount any psychological factors. Cause deep down we have been conditioned to see men as stronger and we honestly believe they are directly responsible for their choices and the outcomes and women are not.

Hopefully some folks will see this as well and call out the core ideals being presented.

[lumberjack_jeff]

218. Yes, two parallel assumptions are working here.

Last edited Mon May 5, 2014, 07:45 PM - Edit history (1)

Men are invulnerable to coercion, even coercion based on access to their children. This would only be true if one assumes men generally don't give a shit about anything, even their kids.

Women on the other hand are helpless in the face of any and all manner of social pressure, from blatant to subtle. (i.e. a woman dare not ask for a raise because she'll suffer disapproval from her peers) Further, they are incapable or universally disinclined to use coercion.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

224. THAT is what YOU get out of this thread? Maybe you need to have your eyesight examined.

[treestar]

210. Not even possible these days

He is not trapped. He does not have to marry her even if she is pregnant.

I love the claim THEY have to be trapped. If they do not ever want to marry they don't have to. So why do they ever ?

[BainsBane]

237. If you believe some in this thread

Men are weak creatures who have no power over their own actions. What hogwash. And they accuse feminists of "playing the victim."

All kinds of extremes exist. Are there women that use deceit to try to "trap" a man. Sure, I suppose they must exist. We see it on Soap Operas. But there also are men who kill women pregnant with their children. That doesn't make all or most men killers, any more than all or most women are deceitful.

[SummerSnow]

254. My stepson now feels his girlfriend trapped him when she got pregnant.

my question was if he did not want any children, but wanted the sex then he should have taken precautions. It takes two to tango.