General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDo white liberals understand the white privilege they receive daily?
I sometimes forget that not everybody believes or thinks the way I do, kinda crazy that people might actually disagree with me but it happens. so I thought I would open up a discussion about the big one, race.
I know rightwing men and women believe they dont have white privilege, but they are morons so what they believe is not important.
What about us white liberals, myself included, do we understand that in every aspect of life, employment, education, legal, housing, etc a white person has privilege simply by being white?
I would list the examples of where a person of color is discriminated against but how would I know what they are other than the obvious, as I have never experienced, NOT ONCE, any kind of discrimination based on anything other than maybe my personality.
As my friend Dave Marsh says, "racism can only be resolved by white people (in America), because only white people can be racist (in America), so they are the only ones who can end racism.
So whaddya think?
Marshall III
(69 posts)im sorry
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I think that about covers it...
Marshall III
(69 posts)Your comment is as well thought out in this instance as I would imagine they often are.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I think it was a "great catch"
Marshall III
(69 posts)Open minds abound.....
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)You can see for yourself..
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=313700
Marshall III
(69 posts)Certainly you are referring to this outrage:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4808818
or others like them.
Learning a lot about prejudice and bigotry today.
RobinA
(9,893 posts)never posted to a gun forum.
I apologize for being white. I have created every problem the world has ever seen. I do not deserve to be a liberal because I have not suffered enough.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Might want to work on that a bit.
Because you say so?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)You're doing this "forgive me for being white" horse shit I could easily expect from Pat Buchanan or Rush Limbaugh. You are casting yourself as a victim of oppression because you are white. It's hyperbolic nonsense directed at straw men with the intent of deflecting from the topic of societal privilege, and it is typical of the right-wing response to the subject every time it is brought up.
Like I said. You might want to work on that.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)2) Who told you that you have created every problem the world has ever seen?
3) Why do you feel you haven't suffered enough?
These are very interesting points you are bringing up about your self thought that truly have nothing to do with the op or the person you responded to. Very strange.
raccoon
(31,111 posts)RobinA
(9,893 posts)ground glass.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)The little pieces are too small.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Your comment is as well thought out in this instance as I would imagine they often are..."
As was your original comment, too?
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)It's what's for dinner.
You are pro-choice when it comes to owning guns? Sinner! Only the wealthy and people and power should have such rights! Not you puny humans who are merely citizens.
"Well, heck, Seymour I dun heard about less than wun purcent of them gun owner fellers hurt some people wid their guns. Just like them folks on welfare use their money for drugs, and them mooslims over in islam country is all terrarists. We gots to do us something bout that, yes sir we sure do."
Hey look, someone chose something different than me - and because some who made that choice do something bad it means you are bad and all your arguments are too!
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Gotta keep an eye for wrong thinking.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)views on another.
And guess what? I was right!
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Instead of focusing on the core issues/beliefs someone holds.
Like the RW saying "well I would except Muslims to say things like Osama Bin Laden would"
Funny how that works and is condemned as a tactic when the right uses it but is hugged like a teddy bear when others do.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)the existence of the federal government, it's not all that surprising to hear his views on "the negro".
BTW, I have no idea what "So views on issues become calling names or refering to one person" means. At all.
Marshall III
(69 posts)Ted Nugent?
NutmegYankee
(16,199 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Paladin
(28,262 posts)I've been here at DU for a long time, and for all that time, Gun Enthusiasts have been loudly and conspicuously adhering to the right-wing NRA line on firearms policy, while assuring us over and over that they are 110% pure, doctrinaire liberals and loyal Democrats on every other issue there is. And yet we constantly see them carrying the right-wing agenda on other matters---capital punishment, range rights in the western states, affirmative action, and in your case, white privilege. So don't feel too bad---you've got lots of company around here, folks who have lowered our expectations a whole bunch. Hope that makes you feel better.
Marshall III
(69 posts)Certainly you know what a Paladin is, right?
Paladin
(28,262 posts)Care to make another run at it?
Marshall III
(69 posts)Paladin
(28,262 posts)Heidi
(58,237 posts)You poor oppressed thing.
arcane1
(38,613 posts)Marshall III
(69 posts)struggling to support their families, hear everyday.
There is only green priviledge. We were so much stronger when we realized that there was a 1% and everyone else, but intead some are eager to tear us apart.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)we were so much strong when we all were fighting for things that would benefit me; but instead/now, some seem eager to assert their own interests that do not benefit me.
Marshall III
(69 posts)As a matter of fact, the premise of this thread is that, although I am, poor as dirt, and struggling to make it, I am the recipient of pools and pools of priviledge.
Because two struggling people, with the same skin color that I have, got randy at a halloween party during the Johnson administration, I swas born this color, smack into a mountain of entitlement and an ocean of privliledge.
Well if the"White people of priviledge League" is having a meeting soon, I wish they'd tell me where it is, so I can pick up my membership card, because they're coming to cut off the power on the 15th. Certainly my membership card will keep the lights on!!!!
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)That your privilege does not mean you will succeed or you won't struggle; your privilege just means you don't face the added burden of your race on top of life's twists and turns, before it sinks in?
Marshall III
(69 posts)I don't claim to understand what you face, don't tell me that you know what I face.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Anything about what you have experienced. I am saying that what you have experienced has not been made more challenging because of institutional racism.
Understand?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)But do you?
Can't put it more simply than that.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)you should do a bit of reading because your post is slightly ridiculous. It's clear you don't understand the term at all.
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)but the OP asked about liberals.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I don't know if you're kidding or not. The answer is "no, not all of them."
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)there are other ways to approach the question
dilby
(2,273 posts)Because I know lots of racists of all colors. My ex wife was Asian and I did not learn what a racist she was till after we were married, my old boss was Arab and a racist as well.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)bigotry is what you are describing...2 different things...
dilby
(2,273 posts)My ex's parents owned an apartment complex, they had power over people. Anyone can have power over someone else when you have something someone else needs.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)No everyone doesn't have power over everyone else.
I am neither a boss nor a landlord I have no power over anyone but myself....so I am not a racist. So your theory is full of holes...
Let me guess....you are a White male?
dilby
(2,273 posts)Someone said only whites have power thus they are the only racists. I am Jew and a male and I have seen racists of every color.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)sorry....
there is a difference between racism and bigotry....
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)YOUR theory is not supported by the body of 21st century research and thought. While the pre-1970s understanding of racism had it where racism was based on individual conduct, that could apply to any race or peoples; the academic understanding of the topic has evolved (as science is wont to do) to indicate that racial animus without institutional/systemic power is termed Bigotry; whereas, racial animus with, or in support of, institutional/systemic power is termed racism.
Welcome to the 21st century.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I wish I were more erudite and less of a "verbal brawler".....but it's just my way....I don't like to suffer foolishness...(I am a big Randi Rhodes fan by the way)
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Last edited Sat May 10, 2014, 12:53 PM - Edit history (1)
not be confused with institutional racism. You can understand how institutional racism has much larger impacts on huge segments of our society, right? That is the first step in understanding why the terminology needed to be, and has been clarified for people who write and study these issues. Hope that helps.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)After all, Louis Farrakhan, for example, may not have INSTITUTIONAL power backing him(at least not directly, though I have long viewed him as a useful idiot for TPTB, for sure), but he has more than enough hate in him to qualify for the racist label, in terms of *personal* relations. There certainly IS a difference between the two types(albeit the fact they do often intersect, to be fair).....
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)terminology evolved. So people who study and quantify these problems can communicate more clearly about them. This is standard usage of english these days among the educated. Let's try not to dumb things down like republicans do.
Sorry they didn't poll you all to find out what term would be acceptable, but I don't think any would with those who wrongly believe it is about guilt or beating themselves up. They do not want their "more fortunate situation* " acknowledged or discussed at all.
* privilege
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)denying privilege doesn't mean you don't enjoy it...
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)....missing the point. Or, rather illustrtating the point!
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)gollygee
(22,336 posts)I think the idea is to define racism so we don't have to examine our own lives. If it's a societal thing that gives us privilege, then it involves us whether we try or not, or like it or not. If it's just mean people, then we can exclude ourselves.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)pretend that this is better terminology, all you have managed to do is show everyone you want to be no part of the discussion.
Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #43)
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VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)bigotry doesn't require the ability to do anything TO the other people in question...racism DOES...
You can be a bigot because you don't like that a mixed couple moved in next door....racism is not renting to that couple BECAUSE they are mixed.
Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #83)
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VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)i put up both definitions...
Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #88)
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VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)emphasize racism in the white community and down play the racism that exists in minority communities
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)or local government? It's all the same to you maybe since it's not your problem.
nope, there are two different levels where bigotry effects people- but because you do not suffer under institutional racism yourself, you might not have understood why it is needed to make distinctions.
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)...et they are all considered racist
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)It's not personal, but based on statistical probabilities. And no one is calling anyone a racist. What they are saying is many want to ignore or deny racism by denying their relative privilege. Guess what? It's not all about you. Imagine that!
RobinA
(9,893 posts)you've hit on something there. I've noticed the shift as well and it does seem to be being used as a way to attribute racism only to white people. Slick. Dishonest, but slick.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)RobinA
(9,893 posts)of terms to fit your narrative is dishonest. Sociology is a major player of the game, although by no means the only player.
Response to redqueen (Reply #98)
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redqueen
(115,103 posts)Its not my fault so many ... people try so hard to ignore it.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)social psychology (a 2nd yr sociology course - both are electives for me as I'm in my 4th yr) this term. You are correct. Love how people pretend that doesn't exist. Perhaps they are anti-intellectuals...and we're just liberal elitists.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)101...they lived it
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Revanchist
(1,375 posts)although the second definition would be the closest to what they are trying to imply.
I think bigotry is some thing that almost everyone has, especially here on this site regarding certain groups such as the teaparty, republicans, or wall street.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Bigotry is not okay, and IS "just not liking someone for their color" and not quite nearly the serious political issue that racism- institutional racism that effects every aspects of POCs lives- is in America.
You are welcome, now you can speak to these issues with more clarity and not bundle these things together like an uneducated, self serving oaf. I know you would not want that.
Response to bettyellen (Reply #111)
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VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I think it is the quite opposite really...
Whites trying to compensate for their own true feelings...
"well everyone is a racist"
right?
Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #132)
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VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)detailing the difference between bigotry and racism....then you would know what you just said is false.
Denying there is a difference doesn't mean there isn't..
By the way..Protip....you don't have to be a racist to be a bigot. It doesn't have to have anything to do with race. If you just hate Gays you are a bigot not a racist.
Response to VanillaRhapsody (Reply #164)
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VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)I also provided dictionary definitions....
What have you to back up your claims besides
"but but but....Black people are racist too" malarkey?
ismnotwasm
(41,985 posts)You are leaving out racial dominance in your definitions, as well as centuries of history, racist laws leading to institutional racism which maintaining white hegemony and power.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Again for your edification...
bigot:
: a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance
rac·ism
1.
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2.
a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3.
hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
***note the words I bolded****
Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)And while she isnt racist, it runs rampant in the community.
Throd
(7,208 posts)Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)seveneyes
(4,631 posts)Aside from preventing those giving these privileges from doing it?
randys1
(16,286 posts)realized their privilege
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)and denial is not a river in Egypt.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)ought to question whether we want to associate with white liberals who live in denial
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Or is this a zero sum game and a White male loses if a person of color and or female gains?
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)Privilege does not exist when everyone is treated the same. It's a transmission problem, not the receiver.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Even as they acknowledge that white supremacy is a systematic problem, from which they accrue benefit.
randys1
(16,286 posts)racism is an act of power
a non white person in American can be a BIGOT, but cant be a racist
i knew this is what would happen...go ahead, avoid the real issue and pretend you dont understand what the word racist means
B2G
(9,766 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)Jesus christ, no, in a country where whites are NOT the majority or dont control the system, in those places non whites can be the racists
B2G
(9,766 posts)and hates white people, they are racist. And then they move to the US and still hate white people, they are no longer racist?
randys1
(16,286 posts)you are talking about bigotry, i hate skinny people because they make me uncomfortable
that makes me a bigot, i hate Gay people cuz they are icky, this makes me a bigot, i hate white people in a country where they have all the power, this makes me a bigot
i hate Black people in a country where I have all the power and I use my hate to disenfranchise them and lower them on the economic scale, that is RACISM
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)like for example a landlord...what you mean is bigotry
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)Because it contradicts every dictionary that I've ever read.
Not trying to be difficult, just curious.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)It's prejudice when Mr. Smith feels unhappy when Mr. Johnson moves in next door because he doesn't like Mr. Johnson's skin color or ethnic identity.
It's bigotry when Mr. Smith refuses to invite Mr. Johnson into his home or offer him friendly waves of greeting.
It's racism when Mr. Smith uses threats and intimidation to attempt to drive Mr. Johnson and his family out of the neighborhood.
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)He's confusing racism, which anyone can have regardless of skin color with institutional racism, which come from a position of power. Racism is a subset of bigotry: all racists are bigots but not all bigots are racists.
Edit to add :
confusing might be the wrong word, perhaps changing or redefining is a better choice.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)it comes with action....you are giving too much weight to the words institutional and power
if you don't rent your apartment to "those people"...THAT is racism. But your overall difference between them is true...
randys1
(16,286 posts)i shouldnt be surprised
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)and he hated white people and refused to rent to them, that would be racism, right?
Conversely, if I have no power over anyone, but I'm just of the opinion that blacks are inferior and I detest them, I'm not a racist.
Do I have your argument down now?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)This is a VERY tired old (and defeated) argument...
"but but but....Black people are racist tooo!"
B2G
(9,766 posts)I am trying to understand your definition of racism. You have stated numerous times on this thread that you have to have power over someone to be a racist. You went so far as to state that you couldn't be classifed as a racist because you had no power over anyone.
Are you going to answer my question about the above scenario based on all of your postings?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)one theoretical or anecdotal story does not change the facts....by your own analogy if even ONE woman chooses to hire another woman instead of a man....then sexism doesn't exist!
B2G
(9,766 posts)because you have no power over anyone?
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)You can deny your White privilege until the cows come home.....but it STILL exists...
B2G
(9,766 posts)to suit your worldview.
By your new and improved definition, individuals with no power over anyone cannot be racist.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)See post 152.....
B2G
(9,766 posts)"I am neither a boss nor a landlord I have no power over anyone but myself....so I am not a racist." See post 48.
What you did there was to give a huge number of people an out from being classified as racist, yourself included. See, that's the problem with making up your own definition of words.
I'm done with you. I've tried to have conversations with you in the past, and it's about as productive as nailing jello to a wall. Have a wonderful weekend.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Yeah you are done.....because you are wrong...
I didn't make up this definition...as many others on this thread are pointing out to you....you just deny it...and that dog don't hunt.
"If white people in general were unable to find housing anywhere because all or almost all landlords were black, then that would be racism. The system would "be set against white people in their attempts as a group to find housing."
hattip to gollygee
white people in general were unable to find housing anywhere because all or almost all landlords were black, then that would be racism. The system would be set against white people in their attempts as a group to find housing.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)It's often more about power and influence. Whites were definitely in the minority in S. Africa during apartheid, but they had all the power. Would you say they were NOT racist? Blacks may have been bigoted against whites, but they had no power, so no real racism against whites existed.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)In South Africa, and most other colonized nation on the continent, Black were the overwhelming numerical majority; but no one can claim they held any institutional power.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)but seriously hasn't this material been covered enough times here?
Sigh.
whistler162
(11,155 posts)dilby
(2,273 posts)If a black customer walk into an Asian store and is called ethnic slurs by the owner the owner is a bigot but not a racist? Even though the majority of the community is Asian? I think you will find that racism will always be found in neighborhoods that have an ethnic majority, trying to say Whites only is missing the problem because you are trying to solve the problem on a National scale when you need to solve the problem in the neighborhoods.
so you don't understand. Only white people are racist. Keep reading these threads, you'll catch on.
dilby
(2,273 posts)If you think another race is inferior you are a racist, I don't care what color your skin is.
Exposethefrauds
(531 posts)Some whites do get white privilege many do not as evidenced in this very thread
As a WM over 50 I have known for my entire life that the color of my skin and a penis opens doors that are closed to most.
Now I use my WP to do what I can to open the doors for all.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)And power is a function of income.
A manager we met from Hong Kong asked, when he moved here, where the Jewish people lived -- because they were the smartest. So that's where he wanted to live. (He assumed my husband was Jewish, I think because of our last name.) He wouldn't have lived in any area with a higher proportion of black people. Why isn't that attitude racist?
http://maamodt.asp.radford.edu/HR%20Statistics/Salary%20by%20Sex%20and%20Race.htm
Behind the Aegis
(53,959 posts)While I agree with racism being a combination of bigotry and power, if the power is equal, then racism can occur. I don't think any non-white person can be racist toward a white person, bigoted, yes, bot not racist. However, "across the board" racism can and does occur, but that generally needs to be handled "in house."
Also, don't assume everyone understands the dynamics of racism and therefore are "avoiding the real issue." If everyone isn't on the same page, the song is really gonna suck.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)But a white person who doesn't acknowledge their privilege really can't call themselves a liberal.
randys1
(16,286 posts)guess what episode I saw, the one where she broke her leg 3 days before, so she wasnt there
can you imagine that luck?
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)If you don't accept the premise that white privilege is at the root of every aspect of our racial problem, you get demonized on this board. There was a thread here that's still in play that provides a great illustration of this.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4924587
As for your statement that "racism can only be resolved by white people (in America), because only white people can be racist (in America), so they are the only ones who can end racism", that is ridiculous on its face.
randys1
(16,286 posts)never mind, DU is not the enlightened place i had hoped
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)randys1
(16,286 posts)badtoworse
(5,957 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Is at the root of all racism?
Would you agree that white supremacy provides benefits to a class of people, while denying such benefits to non-whites?
What, then, would you call that benefit, if not white privilege?
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)...to maintain whites as the dominant race to the detriment of other races. I don't agree that it is at the root of all racism and I don't believe it is that pervasive. That doesn't mean that racism doesn't exist. Racism does exist, but I believe the cause can't be assigned to a single factor, but is the result of a variety of issues impacting different people in different ways.
Let's say a black person can't get a taxi at night and available cabs are passing him by. It's racist, but it's also likely that many, if not most of the drivers passing him by are also black. Is this a white supremacy issue? It's most likely fear of getting mugged and all cabbies that drive at night worry about that. I believe the situation in NYC has improved in recent years, but some years back, a number of drivers were killed after taking passengers into largely minority areas. That is a historical fact that made it difficult for blacks to get cabs and reinforced stereotypes about black neighberhoods. It was an unfortunate situation, but not related to white supremacy.
Let's look at housing. I don't believe that people who oppose blacks moving into their neighberhood give white supremacy a second thought. Regardless of whether the fear is well founded or not, they worry about the value of their house. That's a selfish economic interest, not white supremacy.
There are other examples, like educational opportunity, but you get the point. I see racism and economic inequity as a complex problem with many facets. I see the cures as being equally complex with acknowledging "white Privilege" contributing little or nothing.
randys1
(16,286 posts)America is still an extremely racist country and since white people have the power they have the ability to solve racism but most of them wont admit that yet, they want to go to a dictionary and say "see, sure your definition of racism is there but I can find one that doesnt require institutional power so I am right and you are wrong"
We have such a long way to go, it is gonna be painful too
racism and bigotry are similar acts or attitudes but one requires institutional power behind it the other doesnt
period
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)The Japanese in WWII thought Koreans were subhuman. That attitude still persists in Japan among some Japanese (and not just Koreans, but Chinese, and more broadly foreigners in general). This is a bit old but the attitudes are still present: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986-10-05/news/8603150016_1_japanese-tokugawa-shogunate-cultures
White supremacy may be at the root of specifically American racism, but racism is not uniquely American.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Call me provincial, but I am far more concerned about the world that is most immediate to me.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)as long as you realise that the USA is not the world, and racism isn't always white supremacy. I think that a more useful understanding of what lies behind racism (of the institutionalised, culturally ingrained sort) is that it's a mechanism of dominance and control of one group over another. Japan was an imperialist and colonialist power and viewed the Koreans and Chinese in conquered territories as subhuman because it made conquering them and using them for slave labour justifiable. Same thing with European powers and the various conquered and subject peoples of Africa and Asia and Oceania, with European colonists in America and African slaves, with frontier settlers and Native Americans. Power and control and exploitation by a narrowly defined elite.
It's worth remembering that "white supremacy" has not always been a fixed thing, either; Cromwell sold thousands of Irish into slavery to work the Barbados sugar plantations, and even two hundred years later, the Irish Catholics who came to the USA during the Famine weren't considered "white" by a lot of the Anglo-Saxon population (and neither were the Palatine Germans a hundred years before).
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)That the U.S. is not the world. But we can debate the white supremacy issue. I guess where one stands on the issue depends on where one sits.
JJChambers
(1,115 posts)There are racists of all sizes and shapes, of all colors and creeds.
Throd
(7,208 posts)Or you might be racist.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)If "racism" is defined as something institutional and systematic, then there's considerable merit to that "only whites" argument, at least in this country. If it's instead defined as simply being racially-based prejudice, then it's obviously not limited to whites.
Perhaps the best way is to employ a differentiation between "racism" and "bigotry."
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)If it just means antipathy for another person because of their race than it's sort of nonsensical - but if it is more about how whites can impose their racism because they have societal privilege, than it's more or less accurate.
Actually it also conflates racism and white privilege which are two different things. Every white person benefits from white privilege whether they are racist or not - but when you bring up racism it's human nature to zone in on that aspect of it. People do a mental calculation in which they divide the world up into racists (like say that Bundy fellow) and non-racists, and then put themselves on the right side of the line.
As for the main question, some understand and acknowledge it and others don't.
Bryant
randys1
(16,286 posts)just due to the nature of his or her reality and imperfection
But you make an excellent point...
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Now, since I am out of work and no longer have a car I don't shop much but when I get some business to fire a minority to hire me (any day now....) I will be cashing in my rewards.
I keep getting flyers in the mail for the local whites only country club, great discounts on yachts, and just today I got my male privilege edition of the SI swimsuit magazine (notice they never put straight white males in bikini's on the cover - yeah, we had us a secret meeting about that).
There isn't a person on this planet who has it better than me I must say. I wield my white/straight/male power like a ninja on crack. yeeeahhh, swish, chop and down go all the barriers in life I might normally face from being poor, trapped, without a car, job, etc. A blast of white hot whiteness shoots forth turned into a tornado by straight maleness and I sweep across the land sucking up everything I want like a giant white hoover vacuum.
Ok, gotta run and clean my pitbulls' guns and pick up some smokes. Have a whitey meeting at the olive garden about changing it's name to the white garden.
leftyohiolib
(5,917 posts)through a school) later i went into a business whipped out my card and they asked me what position i wanted. when i took the drug test for the job and pissed out pot and coke i used my card to get a clean test. privilege has it's privileges
kwassa
(23,340 posts)where a black motorist is not. You get the warning, they get the ticket.
This stuff happens all the time, and if you don't think that it does .... why, you might be a white person.
http://www.nij.gov/topics/law-enforcement/legitimacy/Pages/traffic-stops.aspx
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,838 posts)The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)He is in good hands with AllWhiteState.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)I refuse to be ashamed of something of which I have no control over -- namely, the color of my skin.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)and the subtext is that all white people are supposed to be ashamed of being white because we're all racists. Or something. I stopped listening decades ago.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Shame. Really?
If that is what you are taking from the conversations, then you are clearly not paying attention. Denial of privilege is a pretty big barrier to reducing racism.
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)privilege and advantage. And the subtext is subliminal. YMMV.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)While there is denial, the massive subtext is to discredit or render dillute ones views because they are "white." This kind of approach has been employed for more than half a century.
What is the purpose, other than discredit and shame?
Has this approach really improved things in matters of race, or are we still in the same fix 50 yrs. later?
Any answers?
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I agree completely with the concept, and the fact that white people do enjoy privilege just for being white. But "privilege" is a somewhat loaded term.
I don't have much patience for people who are financially well off and successful, and don't understand that being white was a big advantage in getting where they got -- that Princeton kid who wrote that article, for example. But I do have patience for white people who live in poverty or difficult situations through no fault of their own, and it doesn't sit well with them to be told that they are "privileged".
Le Taz Hot
(22,271 posts)As one who came from abject poverty and had to work for everything I have (what little that is), I keep wondering where the privileged part comes in.
And yes, I do understand being advantaged for being white but privileged? Nope.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)But conceptually, you agree with it. That's interesting. I think if you tried to be more empathetic, you might realize that even though things haven't worked out to meet your expectations, there are loads of people out there who would have loved the extra opportunties afforded you by our society since you do not suffer under institutionalized racism. So, their POV is going to be different on this.
I tell you, as a woman it chaps my ass hearing that my 77% of a mans salary is only really 90-93%, ergo I am treated equally. Even if I belivieved it was only a 10% pay cut for being a woman- hearing other Dems argue that is equality? That is bullshit.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)context. Why the argument? Why not just acknowledge that it is a perfectly good word to describe the situation? Because no matter how much people try to preface their statements with qualifiers, when I see someone arguing about the word I think that perhaps they don't really understand or agree with the sentiment.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Language and word choice matter. Like I said, I'm conflicted. On the one hand, yes, "privilege" is an accurate word to describe what white people have. On the other hand, it also carries certain negative connotations and I can understand how that word doesn't sit well with white people who have suffered from poverty or other unfortunate circumstances through no fault of their own. Sure, you can explain that "white privilege" doesn't mean that all white people lead lives of idle and decadent wealth. But there's no denying that the word still carries certain connotations.
You won't see me sarcastically dismissing the concept of white privilege like some people here. But part of me thinks there could a more useful way to phrase it.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)just perhaps grow up a bit and not let their hurt feelings stand in the way of the overall concept. But honestly, I think many folks are just resistant to the principle of it - you could change the name and they'd find something else to complain about.
I'm not referring to you specifically, by the way. I think you have a pretty good grasp of the situation.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I'd distinguish between people who have done well and want to take all the credit for themselves and not recognize how immensely helpful being white is, versus people who have suffered economically for whatever reason, and lived a hard life, and justifiably don't consider themselves to have had much "privilege".
Its one thing to remind people that a lot more than their own greatness went into their success. But to people who are already hurting, "white privilege" can easily come off as sounding like they should consider themselves lucky because it could be worse. Which, of course, might be true, but it still doesn't sit well with me. It feels a little bit like telling American minimum wage workers they are "privileged" because they don't work in a sweatshop in Bangladesh -- which again might be true, but misses the point and generally emphasizes the wrong part of the equation IMO.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. Who knows, I could be wrong.
liberalhistorian
(20,818 posts)there are plenty who still, sadly, are not, and often because they've never had much reason to think about it. Being white in this society is like being a fish in water, with the water being white privilege. It's just always there and you don't have to think about it, which is why it's often so hard for so many whites to grasp the fact that real racism not only still exists but is still quite entrenched.
Being white and living on a South Dakota Indian reservation, I am very much reminded of my privilege, especially in a state as overtly racist as this one and that treats its reservations like they don't even exist, which is what I'm sure many of them wish.
OTOH, frankly I get a bit tired of hearing about it all the time and hearing about how everything is the fault of whites even though we have worked very hard against the blatant and overt racism and hate in this state, including in our jobs and including giving up other possibilities that would have put us in a better position.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Anyone canvassing for Democratic candidates should use this phrase when a white person opens the door.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)When canvassing make sure we ask them if they smoke. If they do, shame them and tell them that is a choice you wouldn't make and offer them pot instead.
Check to see if they own a gun. If so ask them if they want us to grab it while we are there or later after the election. Same for pit bulls.
Watch to see if they have kids and if so ask them if they get their kids happy meals and ask if we can see what sorts of food they have and drinks (watch for soda/chocolate milk and let them know we will help them in eliminating that choice in the future). If they have more than one kid offer them some free condoms and a book about how they are destroying the earth.
Look in their bathroom, see if the toilet paper is a koch brand.
If we do this right we can win the hearts and minds of voters faster than bush did with the Iraqi people.
RobinA
(9,893 posts)concept so hard for some people to grasp???
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)There are no good Thai restaurants where I live and the nearest Trader Joe's is 30+ miles away.
How is that privilege?
I dare anyone of you to walk a mile in my shoes to get pad Thai before you hurl that label at me.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Dr. Strange
(25,921 posts)They know that anything is possible. That's why there's so many countries revolutioning their governments.
WhiteTara
(29,718 posts)years ago. When she lived here, she had a very difficult time. She is Latino single mother and her oldest son is African American/Latino and her youngest son is blond haired, blue eyed. She had trouble with employment and in general she was seen as less than. I am able to fit in and I pass for the community normal, so even though I have little in common with many of the members of our community, I am treated graciously. Of course, as a woman, I see the down side of not being white male, but I know that every aspect of my life is privileged. I have everything and I wake up grateful every day, even when I am filled with my own personal fears.
I follow the Dalai Lama's teachings which are about compassion and meditating on "other." What I feel, millions of others feel the same way. And because I know suffering, it is my responsibility to have compassion for suffering not just for myself, but for that of others.
Shoulders of Giants
(370 posts)Therefore, I am privileged and discriminated against at different points of my life. I am fully aware of when both are happening, and I don't like either.
randys1
(16,286 posts)quinnox
(20,600 posts)think about it on a daily basis. I know I was lucky to be born white, sure.
Lizzie Poppet
(10,164 posts)Do male liberals recognize the male privilege they receive every day, too?
I've had some terrific conversations with a black male friend of mine on this subject. He's very politically radical (even more so than I am, and I'm silent on a whole lot of things here because my socialist views would get me banned). Our conversations on this have been as much of a wake-up call to him as they have been to me.
randys1
(16,286 posts)i can remember not that long ago a conversation in a workplace where the male boss said "no, she is a woman, she cant handle that kind of mental stress that the job involves"
my god people, grow up
Yes, men regardless of color or whatever are privileged compared to Women, often...not always by any means, but often
RobinA
(9,893 posts)this has been done to death here and has gotten to the point where many people wish they were a dead horse when they see yet ANOTHER post on this subject. You aren't winning converts and you are turning people off.
whatthehey
(3,660 posts)What should we do about it?
I'm sure I have my own subconscious biases but I certainly understand I face fewer obstacles and misperceptions about me than those of minority races. I get other sets of course based on other things, but I get to skip the race-based ones.
Now what can I do with that awareness that will help anything? I can, heck occasionally do, point out the issue to those who seem to deny institutional racism. Can't recall seeing any epiphanies from the attempts but I may just suck at explaining it. However I'm generally decent at other similarly abstract explanations so not sure that's likely. What other options are available to me than the occasional conversation? I cannot see any great opportunity to do anything to end or reduce white privilege no matter how much I remind myself of it. To be honest I rarely do. I rarely need to. It's one of those things to me that you grasp once and then keep. I frankly have no clue what "checking my privilege" means or what it would achieve if I did it more often. I cannot become black/brown. I cannot make black/brown folks white or extend my white privilege to them. All I can do is treat people well and extend them the same courtesies and trust regardless of color.
So however imperfect I am, no doubt greatly; however imperfect the most ardent partisan for this cause thinks I am, no doubt even more greatly, the question remains. What should I actually DO?
Marshall III
(69 posts)It's what my grandfathers on both sides had in the coal mines of Scranton.
What my dad had in the steel mill and my mother had waiting tables.
It was the opportunity I had to go to public schools, a public university and then worked three minimum wage jobs to get through grad school, while trying to help support a wife, also working to get through a public university. Struggling from one job to the next trying to pay bills and raise a daughter. How was any of this a priviledge, more so than any other American?
Years ago Eddie Murphy did a SNL skit where he put on "white" make-up to research what the world was like for white people when minorities weren't around. In an "all white world" everything was free, the banks just passed money out to white people, white priviledge everywhere.
Little did Mr. Murphy realize that some folks would take him seriously.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)I understand that racist attitudes can undermine these Rights.
Beyond that I really don't think about it much.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)upaloopa
(11,417 posts)You can't help but understand white privilege if you were like me growing up during the civil rights era.
Why do you think there was a civil rights era because we all were treated equal?
Of course we weren't.
I wonder how old you are? I wonder how you got this idea that only you understand white privilege and no one else does?
I think that this is the stupidest debate topic on DU. Not because there isn't white privilege but because there are people like you who insist that we deny it or don't know it exists!
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)I agree with this, speaking broadly in general since once you get to any 1 specific event, it may differ. "in every aspect of life, employment, education, legal, housing, etc a white person has privilege simply by being white? "
I STRONGLY disagree with this part "racism can only be resolved by white people (in America), because only white people can be racist (in America), so they are the only ones who can end racism" as anyone of any color can be a racist.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)believe that whatever white privilege does exist is more than made up for by affirmative action which most white Americans believe produces reverse discrimination at least some of the time. Outside of explicitly ideologically liberal/left circles few Americans think that anti-black racism is that big a deal anymore.
pnwmom
(108,978 posts)Whites make less than Asians, and more than other races/groups.
And Asian and White men make more than women in any group.
http://maamodt.asp.radford.edu/HR%20Statistics/Salary%20by%20Sex%20and%20Race.htm
Kurska
(5,739 posts)Can't even marry the man I love in my state of birth, but hey I'm white.
But thanks for prejudging me and my social situation based exclusively on my race!
gollygee
(22,336 posts)I lack male privilege but I have just about every other kind of privilege so I'm very privileged overall. And you have male privilege and white privilege but you lack hetero privilege and Christian privilege.
No one is judging you and your social situation, or even you specifically, just "white" as a trait. People who have that trait have privilege over people who don't have it. People who have "Christian" as a trait in our country have privilege over people who don't have that. Etc.
Mike Nelson
(9,956 posts)Only white people can be racist?
Only white people can end racism?
I think it's something everyone should try to end.
Skeeter Barnes
(994 posts)Picking up people's shit smeared toilet paper and used tampons off the street because they're too goddamn lazy to bag their trash. I thank my lucky stars when I climb in the back of the truck at the end of the day to pressure wash the maggots out.
I'm looking for a second job right now because my pay is so low but yeah, I've got it made and I cruised easy street the whole way to get here.
Response to randys1 (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)If so, why is that?
If not, why is that?
steve2470
(37,457 posts)No arguments from this white male.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Now, granted, I DID back in the days when I was a bit more of a radical lefty type, circa 2009-2010(mainly, with a brief respite in 2012). But now I've had to reconsider that.
My main issue is that not only is white privilege fairly commonly, sadly, used more of a trolling device to basically say, "shut up" to somebody who's opinions they disagree with(whether or not the term itself is actually used), but more over, despite the good intentions of the majority of its adherents, has actually failed as a teaching tool.
To make a long story short: When "white privilege", was first coined a few decades back, was originally intended as a philosophical thing to get people to step in someone else's shoes, as it were, and it stayed that way for a long time. But in more recent years, a more literalist interpretation became common, that is, that white people as a collective have literal privileges beyond the "norm", especially in the past half decade or so. And it was this same literalist interpretation that not only led to the term's rather annoying abuse by misguided radicals, or even a few malcontents(including self-haters or even a small number of anti-Caucasian bigots), but also what many observers have called the "oppression Olympics", in which people argue who has the least "privilege", etc.
And this isn't to argue against the very real social disparities that are indeed stacked up against African-Americans, Chicanos, Native Americans, LGBTs, etc.; those disadvantages are indeed a reality. But "white privilege", sadly, has fallen short of its intended goal, not helped by misguided radicals or the few but ever present malcontents in our midst, but more importantly, due to the shortcomings of the term itself.
Also, I'd like to correct the record on this one last thing: Many, many conservatives, *especially* Teabagger types, actually DO believe they have privilege. But they see this not as a bad thing, but rather, a blessing bestowed upon them by God himself.....and/or an acknowledgement supposedly protected by the Constitution, etc.; they may not necessarily boast about it or even frame it in that way, but it is indeed what they believe, and they are angry at the liberal African-American(and part Irish) Democrat from Hawaii because they see him as not just Bill Clinton 2.0, but for all the other things stated beforehand, and more besides.....never mind that they have been suckered The (Criminal) Powers That Be just so they can enjoy their lousy delusionary illusions for just a little while longer.
So that's basically my POV. And I stand by it.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)Here's a little experiment for you, then: submit the same resume to multiple companies, one with your name and one with an obviously African-American name like, oh, say, Demarcus Antonio Jackson. See which one gets more replies.
This exact thing has been studied; "ethnic" names get significantly fewer responses from potential employers, with identical educational and work histories. If that's not an example of white privilege? I'm not sure what is.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)It is true that, for example, white people enjoy the privilege of not being racially profiled and treated less fairly by the police because of their race. This isn't a "special privilege" per se, it's a something that ought to be the NORM for people of all races.
I don't agree that it's commonly used as a trolling device, but maybe I've just not encountered those people. When Princeton kid wrote his rant about people telling him to "check your privilege", he was referring to other college kids who clearly haven't learned how to form a mature argument yet.
Nobody who uses the term intelligently uses it as a means to shut down debate or to make white people feel guilty for their success.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)At least not anywhere but perhaps inside your own mind.
Your premise is incorrect.
Some 11,000 teachers in this large public school district are learning about white privilege, as part of a multi-year diversity training. I haven't heard any complaints, from anyone.
If you have examples of failure as a teaching tool, you should be able to post them. You have provided no evidence so far.
There is also no such thing as a "literalist" interpretation of white privilege. There is no scripture, here.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Iggo
(47,558 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)It's safe to say that discrimination, bias and racism exist, and that empathy and understanding are in short supply. This isn't a one-way street, however. The barriers that make me ignorant of the reality of others lives also blinds them to the reality of mine.
I think that people are missing the irony that anyone has a particular qualification by virtue of their sex, orientation or race to quantify privilege, a term which could be defined as the state of ignorance into the reality of others lives.
Because the disparate outcomes can be measured, I'm inclined to agree that white privilege exists and that my ignorance of the daily lives of black, hispanic or native american people is a barrier to effectively creating social change. But the nature of the two way street is this: to the extent that I have a comfortable if not affluent life in which my needs are met, the reasons are not entirely due to privilege. I think that some degree of social change could come from listening and not just poking me in my anonymous lily-white chest.
In real life, I'm not an altogether unfortunate role model. What I've done has mostly worked to create a happy life. If we could have a less accusatory discussion on the topic I think it would supply more light, less noise and perhaps an opportunity to learn from one another.
senseandsensibility
(17,056 posts)and as a white person, I am, and nothing that follows is meant to deny that. However, I am female, and it sickens me that sexism is alive and well in the twenty first century. If anything, it seems to be increasing. I grew up in the seventies and eighties when it seemed to be widely accepted that women deserved equal rights. This was reinforced through the popular culture, and sitcoms featured strong, powerful women. I was shocked when, in the 1990's (for ##*&$) sake, the realtor who sold us our home would not negotiate with me. She answered a few of my questions at the beginning, but then insisted on talking to my husband. Then she made some comment about him "making the money". Lol. My husband made less than me at the time and was not interested in what home we bought.. He was perfectly happy to leave it to me. Poor thing lost a sale. Anyway, both racism and sexism are alive and well.
CANDO
(2,068 posts)Another in a long line of divisive threads on white privileges. The sole purpose of which is to garner any counter response so that the super liberals among us can demonstrate their piety and self righteousness by then accusing those who dare to respond of racism. It's the point of these threads from the very get go. Flame away! I'll not participate any further.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)It's addiction some have.
randys1
(16,286 posts)Zavulon
(5,639 posts)I had to read your post a few times to decide whether it was posted in earnest or not. I'm still not sure.
But if your friend Dave Marsh was serious, then he's one of the most clueless people I've ever heard of. And, sorry to say, so are you if you agree with him. Some of the most racist people I know aren't white at all.
The racists who ARE white are idiots, too, but they have a point when they say "I'm tired of hearing that only white people can be racist." It's the only worthwhile point these idiots have, and dolts like your friend Dave Marsh are going out of their way to reinforce it.
I'm still not sure if your post is serious or not, and I know I'm late to this party. But if your friend Dave Marsh actually means what you claim he said, then I couldn't think much less of him. I've known plenty of people who think the way he apparently does and don't have a good thing to say about any of them. They're almost as much of a problem as the racists (of ALL races) are.
Wont argue with white privilege anymore, Democrats are not the enlightened folks I thought they were
BTW, Dave Marsh asleep knows more about this than you could ever possibly...ever hear of SNCC?
go away, i am getting angrier thinking about how many ignorant, hate filled white privileged people there are here and I am not liking it one god damn bit
randys1
(16,286 posts)I am so depressed to find these results.
I really thought, in all sincerity, that it would be 95% yes, we absolutely understand what we have, we know the word racism exists SOLELY to differentiate from the word bigotry as it was created to explain how govt or societal entities use power to keep groups down etc...
But what I found was beyond depressing...
I wont argue about this with white privilege democratic folks anymore, it is too depressing.