"Lets work together to end racism" is more constructive than "whites need to check their privilege".

[Nye Bevan]

Just like "lets work together to reduce rape and sexual assault" is more productive than "all men are potential rapists" and "all men benefit from rape".

Just my humble opinion.

[LanternWaste]

1. "Let's watch out for one another" is a much less offensive sign at the swimming pool than...

"Let's watch out for one another" is a much less offensive sign at the swimming pool than "All swimmers-- please be careful and aware"

[uppityperson]

2. Becoming aware of the problem is, however, a good first step. The next step needs to be how to

deal with the problem. Whether societal ism or culture.

[Capt. Obvious]

9. I believe step 9

is where AA's make amends to white people for making them feel bad.

[bettyellen]

11. Sad, but yeah. Every thread has a sad ass wanting an apology because someone not white was rude once

the horror! They can feel your pain, already have, so STFU.

[Whisp]

17. thread win!

[Gormy Cuss]

27. Bingo.

Oh wait. That's held at a different time than the AA meetings.

[Capt. Obvious]

28. There's a higher power that determines how to fight racism

White people

[gollygee]

35. ROFL

This thread ended up being full of so much win.

[bettyellen]

36. DUZY.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

125. Ah, I know that one.

Tim Wise.

[ismnotwasm]

141. +1000

[redqueen]

3. And of course white people's opinions should be prioritized in discussions about racism

and men's opinions should be prioritized in discussions about feminism.

Because if their egos aren't coddled, they won't be our allies. And really, an ally who prioritizes their ego over social justice is surely the best kind of ally you could hope for, so this information is vitally important.

[bettyellen]

13. White peoples opinions are paramount, especially the uninformed and self interested ones.

[Supersedeas]

33. do you personally know any white people who have no self-interest?

can you have no self-interest and be engaged politically?

[bettyellen]

37. Did you not know that there is a difference in some and none? There actually is.

Fed up with that silly argument here.

[Supersedeas]

83. I also understand the definition of "any" (meaning at least one)...not all as you imply

But, I know, engaging in conversation with "anyone" (ANY) who completely lacks any (ANY) self-interest can be self-defeating.

Feel free to stew, simmer, and feed upon the arguments you would rather wish to ignore...ha-ha.

[alp227]

210. "self interested"? You do realize you're walking straight into the white nationalist trap right?

Because Jared Taylor (of American Renaissance I think) makes the argument that white Americans have their own "racial interests", in the same fashion as groups like NAACP and NCLR.

[bettyellen]

219. And that has nothing to do with what I said, lol.

But yeah, throw storm front into the conversation if you must. Please proceed!

[NuclearDem]

14. If only someone would explain how acknowledging privilege doesn't mean "you're a bad person"

Oh wait, that stupid strawman has been debunked constantly.

[redqueen]

178. Exactly. This shit has been explained to death,

so pardon me if I can't take any of this 'confusion' about the issue as if it were sincere.

Anyone whining about their feelings, or feigning confusion about what privilege means, or any of that nonsense... sorry, no sale.

[badtoworse]

15. Would in your face insults and accusations be more productive?

The real problem is that unless white males take full ownership of both problems and deliver the expected mea culpas, that's what they get. That's about where the reasonable discussion ends.

[VanillaRhapsody]

45. You should ask the White men on this board who disagree with you if that is what THEY get

for acknowledging their privilege....

[nomorenomore08]

164. If white males don't have "full ownership" of the problem (racism/sexism) then who does? n/t

[badtoworse]

170. I don't see the problems as being owned by a particular demographic group.

[nomorenomore08]

199. I agree insofar as we all need to do our best to be part of the solution, whatever that means on an

individual level. But systemic racism, as practiced from the very beginning of this country's history, really can't be seen as anything but a "creation" of white people, even if nonwhite people have often been used in various ways to prop it up.

I'm not saying that either of us is to blame, individually - we had no choice in being born into a racist society. But American racism, as understood on a broad, mass level - leaving personal prejudices aside for the moment - has always been primarily, if not exclusively, "practiced" by whites against nonwhites. Irish and Italian immigrants, for instance, were treated badly at first because they weren't considered white.

[Nye Bevan]

18. I don't see the Obamas, Hillary Clinton and Liz Warren using the phrase "white privilege" very much.

Of course, they could be doing it all wrong.

[Squinch]

76. I don't see them using the phrase "Cap'n Crunch" much either. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[cyberswede]

96. *snicker*

[Squinch]

99. .

[Squinch]

73. Redqueen, the way you describe it, it finally makes sense to me!

Suddenly, I totally understand why we shouldn't be allowed to point out the existence of white and/or male privilege!

It's their distance from the problems of racism and sexism that gives them their clear-eyed perspective. We women and minorities are just too close to the issue to see things clearly.

You always teach me things!

(This is kind of fun. )

[AverageJoe90]

135. "We women and minorities....." As if all women and People of Color agreed with you 100%.....EOM.

[name not needed]

138. Well of course they do. What are you, some kind of MRA?

[Squinch]

140. What, are you speaking for them now?

Tell me, then. How do women and people of color feel about things?

And PS. Your post is really scraping for a reason to pick an argument. It doesn't even follow from what I said.

But carry on. You seem to have a script that you need to put into all threads. Far be it from me to stop you.

[bravenak]

142. Well i agree with you if that makes a difference.

I'm sure it doesn't to him.

[Squinch]

144. Well, but what do we know? We should ask Joe how we should feel.

[bravenak]

145. I know, right?

I was going to have some thoughts today, but i said to myself, nah, i better run them by this dude on the internet before i make a fool of myself.

[Squinch]

146. It's such a relief not to have to have opinions about our lives, isn't it? Phew!

[bravenak]

149. And to think of all the time i wasted when i could have been learning my place.

Makes me so pleased that i have found this fount o' knowledge.

[Squinch]

173. Well we better learn our places quickly. Whenever we express our opinions they have no choice but

to believe we are accusing them of being racist MRA types. Even though our conversations have nothing to do with them!

They feel bad, and it's all our fault! Because of silly opinions we have about our experiences!

I feel so guilty about the pain I have caused them!

I think I might faint from the shame. Catch me!

[bravenak]

180. There there, i got you.

You forgot to focus on the most important thing. Their fee fees.

[kwassa]

190. You can feel how you feel, but why is it important?

Your personal experience as a white male doesn't give you greater insight into racism than the collective opinion of the people of color on DU, even though you think it does. The fact that you do is more than a little troubling.

[bravenak]

207. I love the deletes.

I forgot what he said now.

[kwassa]

221. Considering he has me on ignore ....

or so he claims ....

he had to self-delete in response to an ignored post? Fascinating.

I must have really amazing powers.

[Supersedeas]

211. as if they all can't relate

[AverageJoe90]

213. Not what I said, or implied, to be honest. nt

[redqueen]

177. These threads are an embarrassment to DU.

It's like back when people were defending bullying and saying nothing could be done. Or entire threads questioning the existence of rape culture. This site isn't the most progressive place around, but eventually more people will catch on. In the mean time we will be enjoying many more lectures from those who seemingly resent being dragged toward progress.

[redgreenandblue]

172. You are certainly not required to consider anyone a potential ally.

But just in case you are interested in alliances, "you are a potential rapist" is probably not the best approach.

At the end of the day, what matters is which goal one is trying to achieve and which strategy one chooses to achieve the goal. Strategies that are heavy on collateral damage always bear the risk of back-firing.

[Supersedeas]

212. the potential for alliances and division can turn on the rhetoric

used to approach one another

[el_bryanto]

4. It depends on what the purpose of the discussion is

If a white person or a male doesn't recognize the potential for racism or sexism in himself/herself, than it might well be difficult to effectively work together to end racism.

Bryant

[BainsBane]

10. Precisely

I know there are times in my life when I've acted on racist and sexist assumptions. If I had not reflected on that in myself, I would continue to perpetuate injustice.

[Nye Bevan]

22. And did you require someone telling you to "check your privilege"

for you to be able to overcome your racist assumptions?

[el_bryanto]

40. Is your objection to that specific phrase or to the message behind it? nt

[Ms. Toad]

42. If it is something that I am doing without being aware of it -

then yes. I have not had anyone use those specific words in speaking with me - but I have been challenged when I was unconsciously doing thing that came from a place of white or cis privilege - and my little journey into having a fragile body was a very effective teaching tool about how much privilege I was completely unaware came with having an able body. Because I am committed to leveling the playing field, when someone living in a less privileged skin makes me aware that I am getting away with things only because of the skin I live in, I try to listen, learn, and change.

That is actually kind of the point. Gathering around the campfire singing Kumbaya with other people of good will doesn't help those people who really want to end racism understand that they may also need to change their own behavior. "Check your privilege" is a reminder to think about it- typically connected with something where privilege played a role so there is an opportunity for some immediate self-examination.

Am I thrilled when I get called on it - no. But I am nearly always grateful that someone was willing to risk offending me.

[wryter2000]

59. I've been schooled several times by black people when I said something stupid

I appreciate it because I don't want to continue saying or doing insensitive things. Privilege is what it is because it's largely unconscious. The way to get rid of it is through education.

[bettyellen]

94. me too! and I learned a lot. Wonder why peeps here think they know it all.....

Oh yeah, they are entitled to be taken seriously, even when they are spitballing it. I forgot their birthright.

[BainsBane]

43. No one had to tell me

It has never occurred to me to sit around and complain that people of color aren't being nice enough to me for me to reflect on the ways in which racism influences me and society more broadly. I've studied history. I know that the institution of slavery permeated the structures of our country dating back to the 16th century Virginia colony. I know that racism has and continues to influence all aspects of our society, from the legal system to education and media images about how we view one another (as BTW does sexism). I have never seen anything objectionable about understanding my own privilege as a white person. Because I see racism as something incumbent upon me to challenge, that means I need to examine it within myself. Understanding privilege is a part of that, though it is only a starting point. If I were to insist that I played no part in racism and that it was all the fault of someone else, I would only be contributing to its perpetration. I choose another approach. I try to listen to how people of color experience racism, and in turn reflect on my own thoughts and behavior to do my best to avoid such actions.

Every time you post about how people shouldn't talk about white privilege, you announce loudly that you see your own sensitivities as more important than experiences of racial oppression faced by people of color. I don't view myself that way. When I don't recognize something as offensive toward a subaltern group (as has occurred somewhat recently in matters involving homophobia and antisemitism), I seek to understand what that act or statement means to the person offended.

I know, for example, that as a straight person that should I ever choose to marry again, I face no legal impediment to doing so. I know I can engage in mild public displays of affection without attracting potentially dangerous attention. That is my privilege as a straight person. I also know that I am not pulled over for driving unless I actually commit a violation. I know I can go into a department store and browse without being constantly followed. Those are some of my privileges as a white person. Other straight and white people enjoy those same privileges. The injustice is that people of color and LGBT Americans do not benefit from those same liberties, not that someone points out my own fortune. Why should that bother me? I can't imagine why it bothers anyone, and I certainly can't imagine why people think not speaking of their privilege is what needs to be discussed rather than racism itself. As JustAnotherGen pointed out, why does she need to "work with you" to end racism? Why should she and others have to convince you to stand up for injustice? And why do you think your own ego a more important topic of discussion that their lived experiences of racism?

[kwassa]

112. "Every time you post about how people shouldn't talk about white privilege, you announce loudly that

that you see your own sensitivities as more important than experiences of racial oppression faced by people of color."

The bottom line.

Why don't some white progressives understand that?

[laundry_queen]

121. +1 nt

[redqueen]

179. How many times and in how many ways does that need to be said before it sinks in?

Obviously we're not there yet.

[VanillaRhapsody]

77. I didn't have to "check mine" I already recognized it.....

[Squinch]

81. Um... Yes. Of course.

When I have done things through ignorance which could be perceived as racist, I have always been grateful to be informed of that fact.

Though it seems that some people would rather persist in assholery than be informed that they are making a mistake.

[wryter2000]

54. We have a winner!

I wish I could rec your post.

[Ms. Toad]

92. Well said -

and add cis-gender, heterosexual, able bodied, neurotypical - and lots more that aren't right on the top of my mind.

[Supersedeas]

218. You have a point, but I don't see why it should be limited to

white people and men....other races have just as much potential for racism and sexism, nol?

[uponit7771]

5. The first is a goal the second is PART of the mechanics on HOW to do the first....

... very hard to "work together" if some of the issues on what keeps people apart aren't recognized.

My Name alone keeps me from getting jobs

Black name resume study - http://www.cbsnews.com/news/black-names-a-resume-burden/

Legal brief black \ white study - http://newsone.com/3006968/nextions-study-racism-black-white-writers/


... and YES

There are PLENTY of people who will not recognize the depth of racism and its harm even if they recognize the existance...

for MOST it has to rise to the level of Clive Bundy or Shelden whatever his last name is to be of an issue

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

126. I know that feeling, even if I'm not black.

I've been having the devil of a time finding a job, and multiple people have suggested a part of it is probably my last name. And just a day or two back, in another thread, someone posted a link showing that some loony stormfront racist type is out there going by 'Erik Bloodaxe', which means that people who might do a websearch on me might be conflating me with that ass.

[Capt. Obvious]

6. Whatever makes white people feel better

we should all be for.

[Nye Bevan]

20. Well, white people are a fairly significant portion of the electorate.

Does it make sense to piss them off?

[YoungDemCA]

44. They already vote Republican

And have been trending Republican for a while. Particularly white men.

While you're worried about offending the delicate sensibilities of white people, the white-black and white-Latino wealth gaps have increased since the Great Recession. Not to mention the racism of the criminal justice system, or police methods in general. Not to mention (often subtle) discrimination in employment and housing (this is illegal, but it still goes on, of course). Not to mention the persistence of black poverty, and the sneering of white right-wingers at the "culture of the inner cities." Not to mention....you get the idea.

Whites continue to benefit from racism, whether they like it or not. But judging from the attitudes of many whites-even those on a progressive website like this one-I'm beginning to think that much of white America wants to keep the benefits of racism, without experiencing any guilt over it. Peace of mind, don't ya know.

[Louisiana1976]

66. +1 million

[Comrade Grumpy]

68. Tens of millions of white people voted for Obama in 2012.

Not a majority of white people. But tens of millions. They made up about one-third of the overall electorate.

[cyberswede]

123. ...do you think they would be driven away from voting for democrats...

because they're pissed that the term "white privilege" is used?

[The Second Stone]

137. I'm a middle aged white male and I have never voted for a

Republican. The "check your white privilege" catch-phrase that is going around seems to me to have been invented by our enemies to divide us. Don't assume that just because I fit a preconceived idea of a racist Republican that I am one. This fight is being cooked up by our enemies.

[Squinch]

84. Minorities are becoming a larger portion of the electorate. Does it make sense to piss THEM off?

There's a little privilege showing there.

[Comrade Grumpy]

111. No. Let's leave that to the Republicans. They're pretty good at it.

Although I doubt a bunch of people arguing about "white privilege" on a discussion board is going to have much of an impact on anything.

[Squinch]

118. Yes, I know you think that.

[cyberswede]

124. Do you think they will stop voting for democrats due to semantics?

[Lex]

151. LOL. Exactly so.

[JustAnotherGen]

7. Hmm

"Lets work together to end racism"

What if you didn't create the problem? bravenak and number23 and I have had side bars about this -

Why should three black women have to put in all the hard work when we aren't the ones in the dominant culture doing the damage? I think I'm the oldest of the trio at 41 - it's not like we made this mess. Why do we have to clean it up?

It kind of assigns the blame to us - and that's why that statement to me is not constructive.

[Behind the Aegis]

24. Interesting points.

However, as a black woman, you have a vested interest in ending racism/sexism. Do you really want the perpetrators to be solely responsible for "fixing" the problem? I agree it is a burden, an unfair one to be sure. I agree the dominant cultures should shoulder more of the solution, but without input from the affected, it could become a bigger issue. As someone who is gay and Jewish, I don't want heterosexuals and non-Jews deciding for me what is homophobia/heterosexism and anti-Semitism. They can have their say, but they need to hear my voice too. As correct thinking as I can be on issues affecting the AA community, I am not one, I never will be, and no matter how many family members or friends I have in that community, I will never fully understand what it is to be AA in this world. So, I need to hear from AA.

I think some of this comes down to having to admit, some people will never get it.

[JustAnotherGen]

31. You nailed it with this

Some people will never get it.

You get it - because of your life experience. At a certain point though - I have to drop the rope on trying to educate and just go on and do my thing and encourage others to do theirs. We have to let go or be dragged backwards time and again trying to explain to people their stupidity. Make sense?

[Behind the Aegis]

41. I fully understand what you are saying about "dropping the rope."

Time and time again, I have had to explain to some of the same posters the difference between "sexual orientation" and "sexual preference" and still it doesn't sink in! So, I cut my losses and move on, hoping someone who made the same error was reading and did learn something.

I was thinking about this last night in the shower (I do lots of thinking there), and I came to the conclusion that the reason some aren't getting it is because they are being defensive. So, I pondered as to why they were being defensive and came to this conclusion: for the first time, for many of them, they aren't in the majority (of opinion) for the first time in their lives and they feel attacked and the irony of it is exactly how many of us (depending on our minority status) have felt for years, sometimes our entire lives. Basically, the shoe is on the other foot and they don't like the fit.

[bravenak]

147. Hell yeah!

[Supersedeas]

8. the end doesn't begin until privilege is fully acknowledged and fully understood

[Louisiana1976]

63. I agree. The first step is to admit there's a problem with white privilege.

[Supersedeas]

86. what the lily privilege is...and whenever (if ever) the lily privilege maybe irrelevant

the privilege seems to be all encompassing

[NuclearDem]

12. Why?

The problem isn't with "check your privilege", it's with the ridiculous strawmen erected to make the privileged feel they're being discriminated against.

Which only serves to make less privileged communities the bad guys.

[Behind the Aegis]

16. Ideally, that would be the best way.

However, we aren't dealing with an "ideal" situation. I agree some people are nasty and accusatory, which doesn't help, but there are also those who fail to realize they have privilege and don't fully understand it. Class has been brought up as a way to negate white privilege, but it does no such thing. It is true the issue of classism also needs to be addressed and it, too, has it's share of privilege. One thing I have personally noticed is how people are willing to overlook little things because "they aren't a big deal." While those little things aren't the be all to end all, they do add up and they do contribute to the cultures of '-isms', and therefore, they too need to be addressed.

Racism ((hetero)sexism/gender bias/homophobia/classism/anti-Semitism/Islamophobia/regionalism/et.c) is much more than calling black people ((or other ethnicities)(women/transgender/GLB/poor(wealthy)/Jews/Muslims/various people based on their place of origin/etc.)) bad names or attributing to them stereotypes, be they positive or negative. The big issues need to addressed, and often are, it is the smaller issues which seem to get a "pass" or are treated as if they aren't one of the "-isms."

[etherealtruth]

19. ...because black folk (and other non-white folk)

... and women aren't asking politley enough for equality ....?

[Nye Bevan]

21. I like President Obama's approach to the issue.

Do you?

[etherealtruth]

30. President Obama represents the entire country

Although a black man, his obligations are to all the citizens of the country. He is not the "Black" president he is the U.S. president, and as the US President I appreciate what he says and generally how he says it.

For average Joe Citizen ... s/he has no obligation to not offend .... has no constituency to represent .... I would never presume to opine that a black man should seek what is rightfully his, without offending anyone.

I would never state that a woman should ask politley and wait for an equal seat at the table.

[nomorenomore08]

165. Sure, but it's not the only valid one. You need an MLK *and* a Malcolm X, so to speak.

Ideally, more moderate voices, and more radical ones, serve to complement and reinforce each other.

[AverageJoe90]

188. Only thing is, Malcolm X's original stances......

Actually proved to be a stumbling block for the Civil Rights movement, at least, that is, before he rejected his anti-Caucasian bigotry and instead began to preach a message of tolerance and respect between the races. And yet, less than a year later, his life came to an all-too sudden end. Indeed, I find the circumstances all too strange to be mere happenstance......somebody in TPTB really did not like this man's turn towards moderation.

[nomorenomore08]

198. I'm not sure it's quite that simple. More moderate, conciliatory voices certainly are/were valid and

important, but I have to wonder if the MLK approach would have been quite as effective without the "threat" of a more radical response. Dr. King, by almost any standard, was one of the truly great men of American history, but he didn't do it all on his own.

[AverageJoe90]

200. Yeah, there was a good point you made there, TBH.

Dr. King, by almost any standard, was one of the truly great men of American history, but he didn't do it all on his own.

That's true. That is true.

[M0rpheus]

23. That statement essentially negates any responsibility from the side that benefits most from it.

Traditionally, working together means that "they" dictate what is important for "us" (the minorities) to focus on, lest we ask for too much or ask the wrong way.

What does working together look like when you can't agree on the basics?

[Nye Bevan]

25. I would humbly suggest not rushing to use the words "us" and "them".

I'm pretty sure that all DUers are on the same side here, regardless of their race or sex.

[bettyellen]

38. LOL, suddenly we are colorblind. Nice 180......

[B2G]

47. Isn't that the whole goal?

[Capt. Obvious]

49. No

There is no such thing as being "color blind"

It's a cutesy euphemism to discount the black experience and to position white people as the real victims of discrimination from things like affirmative action.

[Revanchist]

51. argh, you beat me to it by a minute!

[Revanchist]

50. "Colorblind" is also part of the problem

You need to see and acknowledge other's race/ethnicity and/or culture and treat them with respect and equality, not pretend that they are not who they are.

[AverageJoe90]

182. We can acknowledge each other's differences while still being "color blind" in a way.

That is, in the sense that was elaborated by the late Dr. King, that of placing good character above all else.

[gollygee]

185. Dr. King said he was waiting for a world that was color blind

He did not say people should be color blind in a world that very much is not.

[AverageJoe90]

186. That's what he wished for, isn't it?

Of course, he wanted people to continue to be aware of the realities of ethnic oppression, but he *still* hoped for a world in which people viewed character as the arbiter of one's worth, and not the color of their skin, and thru his words, he encouraged people to make that a reality. So in a way, yes, he did.

[gollygee]

187. His words are often misrepresented

http://www.timwise.org/2003/01/misreading-the-dream-color-blindness-and-the-distortion-of-martin-luther-king-jr/

He wished for a day when his children would not be judged due to the color of their skin, but people of color are very much still being judged by the color of their skin. He wanted changes to happen to make that non-judgement be a reality. He didn't want people to pretend that there was no privilege. Pretending privilege doesn't exist doesn't create a world without judgement.

[AverageJoe90]

189. "He wanted changes to happen to make that non-judgement be a reality." Basically what I just said...

EOM.

[gollygee]

192. You don't want changes

You never said you want changes. You want people to pretend there is no judgement and not recognize privilege, which is part of the job of deconstructing racism.

[AverageJoe90]

193. "You don't want changes" Talk about a real 180.

It's kinda sad.....we were kinda starting to have a legitimate convo here.....and then you pulled the "you're a faker, you don't want a better society" card. What was the point in that?

You want people to pretend there is no judgement

That is simply not true.

and not recognize privilege, which is part of the job of deconstructing racism.

You can deconstruct racism without subscribing to "white privilege" theory.

[kwassa]

197. You are one of the few progressives to think that "white privilege" is a myth.

You might actually start to debate the issue. You have made no attempt in your many notes on the subject so far.

[JustAnotherGen]

203. This

He wished for a day when his children would not be judged due to the color of their skin, but people of color are very much still being judged by the color of their skin.

[AverageJoe90]

214. Okay, but I didn't argue against that, TBH.....nt

[JustAnotherGen]

217. That wasn't directed at you

You don't warrant being on my radar.

[NuclearDem]

52. "Color blindness" is a problem, actually.

Ideally, yes, race shouldn't matter. But proponents of "color blindness" are living in an alternate post-racial reality and as a result don't acknowledge that race still is unfortunately a huge factor.

[Nye Bevan]

55. Apparently, treating people based upon their character rather than their skin color is racist,

or something.

[Capt. Obvious]

56. Did you c/p that from a Roberts Court ruling?

[bettyellen]

62. and that idiotic Princeton student.... yeah it's a RW talking point for ignoring race issues

[Nye Bevan]

108. "character rather than skin color" did not originate in the Roberts court (nt)

[kwassa]

114. "character rather than skin color" is avoiding the white privilege issue.

this misunderstanding of Martin Luther King goes on forever, unfortunately.

You are upset by the concept of white privilege. I'm sorry you are upset.

But that has nothing to do with whether or not white privilege exists.

Now, do you deny it exists, or are you simply upset by people saying that white privilege exists?

[NuclearDem]

127. Indeed. It's missing the key words "will one day."

That day hasn't come yet.

[B2G]

60. I know, right?

This thread is a perfect example of my I don't discuss racism in here.

It's not enough to practice tolerance and treat all people as equals. We must self-flagellate while doing so.

[Squinch]

89. You know what? I've read others of your posts. You are not an unintelligent person.

The concept being described here is simply not that difficult.

If you truly are not understanding it, it is because you are blocking it. It is because you simply don't want to understand it. So maybe you should start there: what is the threat to you in acknowledging that we white people benefit from being white in ways that our black friends do not benefit because they are black?

Why does a conversation that acknowledges that obvious fact present such a problem for you, and why should it have to be tailored to soften your discomfort about it?

Go back and read those posts that you just dismissed. You can learn something here.

[AverageJoe90]

181. Yes. A thousand times yes. nt (P.S., see post 182 for further clarification).

[M0rpheus]

39. Our interests intersect in many places.

However, when you get down into the details of everyday living, there is always an "us" and "them". In this case, it's those that benefit and those who do not.

Your frame puts equal responsibility on all for a solution, when that is not the case.

[bettyellen]

93. God knows I am no longer looking for all men here to live up to the values they profess to have.

I have been reminded too many times that they expect their concerns to be heard, and mine muted and deemed distatseful or divisive. Dudes forget women ARE the party. We make or break it.
I have become much more thoughtful about where and who I am willing to support and work for these days. It's my life, not a fucking sports game to bet on, as too many here treat it.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

26. FRAMES!!!!

[ismnotwasm]

155. And doors. And ducks

[Tuesday Afternoon]

162. AWESOME !!! Maybe we can get somewhere now. I think we have everything we need, right?

oh lord, I am laughing over here. What a week it has been on DU3.

I love that door, by the way.

[ismnotwasm]

168. Church door

I thought it apropos of the situation

[Tuesday Afternoon]

175. It has just the right amount of "irony" for the situation, yes.

[Comrade Grumpy]

29. But not nearly as flame-baity.

[BainsBane]

67. flamebait defined

Posting on issues white guys don't like to read about.

[Comrade Grumpy]

69. What is the point of this baiting?

[BainsBane]

75. You don't get it

How is telling people not to talk about white privilege any less flamebaity than mentioning white privilege? You are defining flamebait as viewpoints that differ from your own. Clearly many posters of color find this OP dismissive of their experiences and concerns, yet you proclaim it not flamebait as opposed to the opposite point of view. How can you not understand that you are not the universal arbiter of what is legitimate discussion vs. flamebait and that others may see things differently?

Here is the reality: women and people of color are the majority voters in the Democratic party, but time and time again we are told that issues that concern us are "divisive," not "political" and shouldn't be posted on this site, particularly in GD. We are supposed to conform our concerns to dictates of the demographic that votes for Democrats in the smallest numbers. Why do you think you and your sensibilities to be much more valid than those of voters of color?

[Comrade Grumpy]

95. Thankfully, you and the crew are here to explain it all to me.

By the way, I expressed an opinion, not a desire to be "the universal arbiter of what legitimate discussion is." I'll leave that to you.

[BainsBane]

104. You declared the topic flamebait

An opinion would be: I prefer to avoid those discussions, or I am personally not interested. I pointed out that your view of flamebait is bound by your own experience and interests. Naturally you respond with snark and will continue to insist subjects you don't like to read, particularly when they express the views of feminists and people of color, constitute flamebait. Invoking that very term does assumes you are the universal arbiter of legitimate discussion since you declare the mention of white privilege to be "flamebait." I hear the same thing about feminist issues, violence against women, rape, etc... every time I post on them. The message is loud and clear: If I don't like your thread, that makes it flamebait and you a troll.

[Comrade Grumpy]

113. Now you're telling what a proper opinion is? Get over yourself.

I have an opinion. I stated it.

These discussions inevitably evolve into a circular firing squad where people who probably agree on 90% of the issues waste their time insulting each other. I will try harder to stay out of these flame fests.

[Supersedeas]

90. certain forms of argumentation causes some people to get so fed up

[BainsBane]

101. I feel the same about the Snowden stuff

People have turned it into a debate over whether or not Snowden and Greenwald as individuals are heroes or traitors, good or evil, while issues about the NSA and civil liberties vs. national security are ignored. I don't, however, march into those threads and declare the discussion illegitimate or flamebait. I sometimes have a look but more often pass by since the discussions are pretty much all the same, complete with the same absurd insults against other members as "authoritarian." I don't give a damn about Monica Lewinsky, and I am tired of seeing thread after thread about marijuana. However, I know that I am not the only person on the planet who matters and that other people find those topics worthwhile. The fact I am fed up with those discussions is neither interesting nor useful to those discussions, so why would I go in and tell people they shouldn't be talking about what they want to just because I don't like it?

You see, it's not all about you and what you want. Other people have other interests and the site allows us to post on those topics. Trash by keyword, use ignore, whatever. But when people insist on delegitimating discussions because THEY are fed up, it indicates they see the concerns and lives of themselves as superior to those of us who care about other issues. Talk about a demonstration of privilege and entitlement.

[YoungDemCA]

32. Actually listening to the viewpoints of the socially marginalized is more constructive....

...than telling them that they're doing it all wrong, that they're not being "respectful" or "civil" enough, than being offended (or rather, pretending to be offended) by terms like "white privilege."

Sometimes, it's better to shut up and listen, particularly when you have not faced the adversities and obstacles that people from socially marginalized groups have faced.

Just my humble opinion.

[etherealtruth]

46. It is an opinion I agree with 100%

[gollygee]

48. +1

[Squinch]

91. +A truckload of plusses.

[uponit7771]

132. +1

[Iggo]

34. Well, it's an opinion.

[snooper2]

53. What about tan people?

[Puzzledtraveller]

57. They can have their white privilege and do something with it

I don't give a rats.. K&R

[Shandris]

58. It's not about being constructive anymore, if it ever was.

It's about 'winning' now, and political relevance. Make an unattainable goal, couch it in language guaranteed to make sure you never reach your goal, and be politically relevant forever. That way you don't run into the pesky problem of, you know, actually moving towards solving problems.

Whatever 'Social Justice' once meant, it isn't what it means now. It's just another counter-intuitive label that means something other than what it says, much like if a bill called the Jobs Creation Act was passed by Republicans -- you can bet that Job Creation had very little at all to do with it.

In before 6,000 posts with the tag. It's overdone, really.

[bettyellen]

65. your blythe dismissal of "whatever social justice once meant".... Never something that interested

you huh? Not shocked to hear this.

[Shandris]

70. Oh my, what a proper scolding.

Or rather it might have been, if I had, you know, actually said what you accuse me of. But since I didn't, I'll just smile and nod and play along with you like I would a petulant child upset I won't let them go to the latest concert alone while accusing me of 'ruining their life'.

Now, don't you have some site somewhere else to go chitter about me or something? Or should I expect more visits from the 'oh look how not shocked I am!' crowd who likewise can't read?

[bettyellen]

74. it's a direct quote from your post, so just walk backwards out of the thread and maybe no one else

will notice it?
Not sure WTF this post meant with the child at a concert? LOL. Sounds like you have your hands full with a brat and think that is somehow relevant here. It isn't. But at least it isn't dismissive of social justice as your previous post was.

[Shandris]

80. A direct quote?

Challenge time, because I don't like people who think they can speak for me. Here is your challenge:

Below is the original post you responded to. Find for me where in this post is the direct quote (or, since I'll be generous, even something alluding to) "I never cared about social justice at all/I was never interested in social justice."

Otherwise, as Richard Pryor says, Have a Coke and a smile and...

Originally posted, in its entirety, non-edited, by Shandris:
It's about 'winning' now, and political relevance. Make an unattainable goal, couch it in language guaranteed to make sure you never reach your goal, and be politically relevant forever. That way you don't run into the pesky problem of, you know, actually moving towards solving problems.

Whatever 'Social Justice' once meant, it isn't what it means now. It's just another counter-intuitive label that means something other than what it says, much like if a bill called the Jobs Creation Act was passed by Republicans -- you can bet that Job Creation had very little at all to do with it.

In before 6,000 posts with the tag. It's overdone, really.

Your move.

[bettyellen]

82. Your "Whatever 'Social Justice' once meant" betrays prior ignorance and disinterest in social

justice.

I'm sure you think giving the full post here frames that in a better light, but really- it does not.

[Shandris]

87. Ahh, I get it. You don't read what I write well, or don't interpret it well, or something...

...along that lines. Well, that's neither my problem (nor is it a direct quote that shows I 'was never interested', despite your protestations to the contrary) nor my concern.

So, you can feel free to remain 'not shocked', and I'll continue to focus my energy on things that actually matter and maybe you'll either learn to read my posts or stop trying to twist my words around (and I'll leave it to the casual reader to determine which is the bigger problem). Have a nice day.

[bettyellen]

85. "Whatever 'Social Justice' once meant" betrays your disinterest and dismissive attitude

towards the issue of social justice. Noted.

I'm sure you think giving the full post here frames that in a better light, but really- it does not.

[Shandris]

97. You can 'note' whatever you'd like.

You frighten me with your 'notes' about as much as a cynical conspiracy theorist.

[Puzzledtraveller]

71. Nailed it!!

[Waiting For Everyman]

120. Exactly right.

People who make fighting against a particular thing their profession or niche, don't want to lose that position. Therefore their self-interest is in seeing the problem continue and never be solved.

What makes it clear to me that certain people don't want racism to improve, is the lack of any civility toward whites. They're told to shut up and butt out. Fine, then they're told that only whites can end racism because whites have the power. So which is it? Are whites needed, or not? If they are, then why is the nastiness no problem? If they aren't, then what's the holdup on ending racism? Why isn't it done yet?

It's clear that the participation of whites is needed, as MLK knew. Yet by the nasty treatment, it's clear that participation is being discouraged. It's a problem some want to talk about, and frequently, as long as it's only their pov allowed, but don't want improvement on. Just as you said.

Same with sexism.

[bettyellen]

183. So.. white people are still racists because POC are too nasty? Their problems are real but ignored

because they would like white people to listen (for the first time in many cases) , instead of talk down to them?

Expecting white people to listen and acknowlege and help sove the problem without dictating to POC is "nasty"? Get real.

[RedCappedBandit]

61. I don't agree. People *do* need to check their privilege.

Everybody could benefit from a bit more introspection.

[peace13]

64. This just cracks me up!

By all means, don't ask the privileged to give an inch. The privileged with health insurance do not want others to have it. The privileged with food want to ridicule those who need assistance. Please direct the proper phraseology so we can get the heck on with things!

Too absolutely funny!

[Nye Bevan]

106. I have been one of the biggest advocates of Obamacare on this discussion board.

But I did not approach the issue from the standpoint of "privilege". I supported it because giving everyone access to health care is the right thing to do.

I think too often people want to inject "privilege" into issues when there is no need to.

[peace13]

223. I was not saying that you were calling HC a privilege.

IMO health care is all about privilege. If I have it and someone else gets it then I may have to wait longer for services. Why should someone who made 'poor choices' get the same care as I do. This thinking is why the process is taking so long.

There are a whole lot of privileges and privileged in this country but nothing that stacks up to the corporations. They will be the deciders!

Have a good one! Peace, Kim

[Puzzledtraveller]

72. Because the world is dominated by whitie

I mean, I have it so much better in Cambodia because I'm white, or Zimbabwe, or North Korea, or ....Yeah, whatev.

[bettyellen]

78. WOW. A "poor me, I'm not the top dog in Cambodia" post! I actually should save this link becuse

people will doubt me if I ever reference this here. Plus the collection of smilies is just icing on the opressed little cake you baked.

[Puzzledtraveller]

79. LOL< you took that serious

Wow, need a getaway? I give awesome foot rubs and am an excellent cook or I could just pay for a vacation getaway for you. Too awesome, thank you.

[bettyellen]

88. Oh, you got me. I have seen the same sentiments posted here, and so

sad to say, really need a sarcasm tag. Because it really is that weird these days. If you had posted about how hard it is to be of short stature, or god forbid, have a female boss and how that is somehow a problem for DU to consider....... I would still not know you were joking. I have seen it all!

[redqueen]

100. Welcome to DU.

Enjoy your stay.

[NuclearDem]

103. You've made the OP's point perfectly.

Though not in the way you probably intended.

[cyberswede]

136. Who is this "they" you know so much about...

after 2 whole days on DU?

...and let me guess...you're a long-time lurker who just signed up on Wednesday. Uh huh.

[Starry Messenger]

102. So this is your attempt to end racism?

How do you think it is working?

[Nye Bevan]

110. Hmmm. Perhaps knocking on white people's doors and angrily confronting them about their "privilege"

would be a better way to go? I can see that winning a few hearts and minds.

[kwassa]

116. This is a discussion forum on political issues. This is not your front door.

If you wish to avoid the topic of white privilege, feel free to do so.

[Nye Bevan]

130. You seem to be saying that you would not use this approach in the real world.

Just on an anonymous internet discussion board.

[kwassa]

153. Not me. I don't avoid this discussion anywhere.

while you would like to avoid it everywhere, it seems.

[Starry Messenger]

119. This is more like you knocking on black people's doors

and yelling "I know more than you about oppression, let me tell things at you!!!11"

[Nye Bevan]

129. Hmmm. The actual quote in my OP was "let's work together to end racism".

So a little bit of misquoting going on there.

[Starry Messenger]

167. It's called subtext, "nye"

[Scootaloo]

107. Well, to address racism, you have to address the reality of privilege.

Among many other things that might make you uncomfortable.

Also your "humble opinion" has been voice over and over and over again, and after your spirited pro-Zimmerman crusading, doesn't really need to be reiterated.

[Nye Bevan]

109. I like the way that President Obama addresses racial issues.

How he addressed the Zimmerman situation, for example, I thought was pitch-perfect. Somehow he was able to be constructive without once using the phrase "white privilege".

Oh, and you must be confusing me with another DU regarding "spirited pro-Zimmerman crusading". (At least that is the most charitable explanation for this comment).

[kwassa]

117. President Obama avoids addressing racial issues as much as possible.

I see why you like that approach. Anything else makes you uncomfortable.

[morningfog]

150. You are right, it was more "anti-Trayvon Martin."

[AverageJoe90]

216. Certainly correct on that!

(P.S.; I think you and I probably can agree that George Zimmerman is a paranoid racist asshole who should have been convicted of murder.....as well as that Trayvon Martin was just a fella trying to walk home after getting some snacks at the store.)

[La Lioness Priyanka]

115. except that whites who are usually committed to end racism

never seem to be offended by the notion of white privilege.

just like, men who want to end rape, dont seem to care about the wordings around how rape is framed. they do their bit to end rape.

[etherealtruth]

122. Funny how it works out that way

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

131. That's because they've already been led to understand it.

But if you want to changes the minds of the people who still don't actually believe it even exists, a nonconfrontational way of 'bringing them over' is probably going to work better than phrasing things in ways that make them instantly defensive.

So am I offended by the notion of white privilege? Not in the least. Do I benefit from it? Every day. But I came to understand it not because people went out of their way to be rude to me, but because they took the time to show me how it works in society without making it sound like they personally blamed me for its existence.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. So if you want to be more efficient about removing the blinders from more white people's eyes, then just maybe you might want to 'care' about framing and wording. Once they actually get it, they'll stop immediately going on the defensive when it's brought up.

[AverageJoe90]

191. Unfortunately, it kinda seems like you haven't looked in all the right places, TBH(no offense).

Last edited Sat May 10, 2014, 05:10 PM - Edit history (1)

Because "white privilege&quot or at least, the most literalist version of it, anyhow) has proven to be QUITE controversial even within progressive activist circles, let alone liberalism in general.

[kwassa]

194. prove your assertion.

You make sweeping claims that have no factual basis.

[fredamae]

128. Racism, Discrimination

and Bigotry afflict just about everyone.
I have been discriminated against as a woman.
I have been dismissed because I was a "single mom"
I have heard bigoted remarks made toward me.
I have been excluded.

I think we ought to not try and separate the issue of who is treated badly, but understand there are very few of us who have not been targeted for one reason or another...Let's stop with the destructive separation (it's intentionally instigated, imo)and get each others backs.
No matter the reason, no matter "the who"-it is all wrong and it's all very personal. It needs to stop. That much I do know.

[whistler162]

133. For many it is the only way to feel good about themselves......

[AverageJoe90]

134. This. This times infinity.

[kwassa]

154. Birds of a feather. Racism deniers.

not surprising.

[Nye Bevan]

156. Are Obama and Biden "racism deniers"

since they choose not to couch their efforts against racism in terms of "white privilege"?

[kwassa]

157. They haven't denied white privilege, like you have.

That is the difference.

[Nye Bevan]

158. Wait..... in which thread did I "deny white privilege"?

I certainly don't recall ever doing that.

[kwassa]

159. What are you doing now but denying white privilege?

[Nye Bevan]

160. Stating that saying "whites need to check their privilege" is not the most constructive approach

to ending racism. Don't you understand the difference? Say someone weighs 400 pounds. Stating that telling this person they are fat is probably not the most constructive approach in encouraging them to lose weight is not at all the same thing as denying that they are fat.

[kwassa]

161. What is a constructive way to talk about white privilege?

I haven't heard one from you, too.

You want to ban the subject from discussion.

[PatrickforO]

139. The phrase 'check their privilege' must have come from

the essay called 'White Privilege' written by Peggy McIntosh back in the 1970s.

As a white male in my mid-fifties, I can readily acknowledge the discomfort some white people have with the 'white privilege' concept.

The problem is, as a white male, I really DO enjoy white privilege. What is it, you ask?

Well, whatever our color of skin or gender, we are all subject to human problems. Our feet hurt. We need to go shopping and don't feel like it. We are worried about being laid off. Our car needs new tires.

I worry about stuff like that the same way everyone else does. There are, however, some things I'll NEVER have to worry about:
- I will never have to worry about a clerk in a retail store following me around because he's afraid I'll steal something
- I will never have to worry about getting stopped out of the blue by cops and frisked because of my skin color
- I will never have to have the same conversations with my kids about cops that black parents have to have about the 'use of force continuum' - truth is I'd never even heard of that until I spoke to some people of color about how sick it was that Trayvon Martin went out to the store to get candy and never came back because a clown named Zimmerman decided he didn't belong there because he was black. The black parents I spoke with knew all about it and educated me.
- I will never have to worry about being subtly steered away from moving into a certain area, or not being offered good interest terms on a loan because of my color
- I will never have to worry about being ignored by car, appliance or electronics sales people because they don't think a black person would have the money to buy what they are selling
- If I get promoted at my job, I'll never have to worry about people believing that promotion was because of my skin color and that I'm nothing but a 'token.'

This is white privilege and it is very, very real, especially for white males. Maybe that's what is meant by 'whites need to check their privilege.' Maybe 'checking' their privilege means just being aware of it, and being empathetic to people of color who have to worry about all those things I've listed above and then some.

[AverageJoe90]

196. I think I see your point.

It doesn't change my own POV re: "white privilege", but this is honestly one of the more intelligent and well-thought out replies I've seen on the subject in recent months. Kudos.

[Skip Intro]

143. +100. n/t

[morningfog]

148. You are still hung up on this? We cannot end racism UNTIL whites check their privilege.

How exactly does an average male benefit from rapes of women?

You still don't understand your white privilege. It is not that you carry a "potential" for racism. It is that you benefit from your race and you refuse to acknowledge that. Of course, there is more to your problem, but that is beside the point.

Denying white privilege is a form of racism.

[morningfog]

152. Fuck constructive. We are long overdue to deconstruct racism in this country.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

176. It is Way Past Time.

[m-lekktor]

163. how depressing to see 15 recommends (so far) on a white people double down thread.

like "getting votes' comes before what is RIGHT. pffffft. thankfully not all of us whitefolk are this DAMN clueless. this is the saddest thread on DU tonight. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH

[Squinch]

174. Not sure if you have lurked and are familiar with the players here, but if it is any comfort

it is always the same names doing the doubling down. They're disgusting, but predictable and finite in number.

Welcome. Don't let them run you off in horror. We need your voice here.

[AverageJoe90]

195. I hate to say this, but we're not the ones who have a cluelessness problem.

like "getting votes' comes before what is RIGHT

And yet this is roughly what the literalist "white privilege" stuff has been about in 90% of cases: not truly about what's right, but oh-so-readily sucking up to a select few loud radicals so they can earn their extra brownie points(pats on the head, atta boy's, etc.), just as how mainstream Repubs in Congress have kissed the asses of the Teabaggers to keep their ideology credentials...(yes, I went there. Because it had to be said)....the RW may kowtow to their radicals, but we *shouldn't* be doing it ourselves; at the very least so we can get our acts together and beat the Pubbies down but also to emerge all the wiser and to actually learn from one another as a whole.

(P.S., yes, I do differentiate between those who fanatically push literalist versions of this theory, versus all the rest. Most of the latter are actually alright, TBH. The former are not a majority but they cause 95% of this site's problems in this regard.)

[bravenak]

201. Sure..

[JustAnotherGen]

205. Awesome!

I'm pretty sure I did that halfway down the thread!

[bravenak]

206. Me too, sometimes it is too much.

I just give this thread one of these-



And move back to my place.

[JustAnotherGen]

209. Ut oh

Side eye and shade throwing all at once!

[kwassa]

222. Oh, yes you are. You don't begin to understand the concept you are arguing against.

but this is a long running series ...

[Eleanors38]

166. Well, good luck with this one Nye!

[ancianita]

169. Yes. Let's. No problem. Except when the gratuitous, unconscious playaz deny they motives.

A more fierce commitment to honesty will be necessary.

[WinkyDink]

171. Is that because all races kept slaves in America? Because all races have shared in the power

structure?

[Maedhros]

202. The concept of "White Privilege" is threatening to some people

because it's universal and can't just be blamed on the Republicans like everything else.

Acknowledging white privilege means that I, too, by disengaging and claiming to "rise above" the issue with my "color blindness", am part of the problem and not the solution.

[fishwax]

204. "Let's work together to end racism" is more constructive than "white privilege doesn't exist!!11!"

[Nye Bevan]

208. I concur (nt)

[AverageJoe90]

215. True, though I'd argue that the latter is mainly a reaction to some of the nastier stuff............

being posted out here, even occasionally on this site(this isn't a complaint about DU, btw). And I've seen it firsthand, too.

[fishwax]

220. Nah, it's an immediate response out of the gate to pretty much any thread on the subject n/t