Should the U.S. continue aiding the Kiev government?

[JackRiddler]

Do you support the continuation of United States delivery of aid to the present government in Kiev in the form of money, materiel, or consultation on matters of military and political strategy and law enforcement (as with the CIA and FBI presence in Ukraine)?

23 votes, 0 passes | Time left: Unlimited
	Yes.
	6 (26%)
	No.
	17 (74%)
	0 DU members did not wish to select any of the options provided.
Show usernames Disclaimer: This is an Internet poll

[pscot]

1. Why not?

It's worked out so well to this point.

[JackRiddler]

2. indeed, it's been fabulous.

[JackRiddler]

3. kick for more votes!

[JackRiddler]

5. More votes! We want 89% turnout!

[KoKo]

39. +1

[Demo_Chris]

4. No. The Ukraine and Crimea are vital to Russian security, while our only interests there...

Are to destabilize that security and allow our corporations to pillage what little these poor people have.

[whistler162]

6. So is Poland, Romania, and Hungary

then so is Germany and Austria

[Demo_Chris]

8. No, nor does anyone actually believe that. nt

[pampango]

7. No country should be told who its friends can and can't be because it is a "security interest" of

some other country. That applies equally to Ukraine as it does to Cuba.

[Demo_Chris]

9. No superpower will destabilize itself to make that Disney Princess sentiment a reality. nt

[pampango]

10. If you are arguing realpolitik over morality, you have a point. That a practical, if not liberal,

strategy. My point remains that Ukraine has the same right as Cuba and Venezuela to decide whom its friends should be.

Your argument that big countries with strong militaries are entitled to a large degree of influence on smaller, weaker neighbors is a strong one. I doubt a Ukraine oriented towards the west is any more a threat to the 'stability' of Russia than a Cuba or Venezuela oriented to the east is a threat to US 'stability'. I suspect that the US and Russia are much bigger threats to the 'stability' of Cuba and Ukraine, respectively, than the other way around. (Of course, Cuba, Ukraine and Venezuela are not superpowers so different rules apply to them?)

Examples of U.S. Realpolitik

The policy of Realpolitik was formally introduced to the Richard Nixon White House by Henry Kissinger. In this context, the policy meant dealing with other powerful nations in a practical manner rather than on the basis of political doctrine or ethics ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik#Examples_of_U.S._Realpolitik

[The Magistrate]

11. And There Is The Rub, Sir

Too large a portion of the cheerleaders for Russia in Ukraine strike a very opposite posture when it comes to the United States in South and Central America and the Caribbean.

[Demo_Chris]

15. Somewhat, but then that's not what we are talking about here....

It's not a question of the Ukraine going its own way or choosing its own friends. That is evidently fine with everyone except the CIA and the western corporations and powers that long to rape and pillage the place. Russia made it quite clear that the REAL Ukraine could control their own course, but that does not mean that we will or should be allowed to set that course for them.

And in any case, the bigger issue here was Crimea, and that's already settled now. Russia would likely go to war over that, the Ukraine not so much.

IN MY IGNORANT OPINION ONLY!

[pampango]

16. In 2010 both presidential candidates campaigned in favor of integration with Europe.

They must have perceived that to be a popular position with Ukrainian voters. You or I may know better than they do what is best for them but, the way the world works, they get to make the decision.

Russia made it quite clear that the REAL Ukraine could control their own course, but that does not mean that we will or should be allowed to set that course for them.

If the "REAL Ukraine" is any Ukrainian government that is fairly elected then I respect Russia's intention to let them control their own course - whatever that course - just as the US should respect the course that the Venezuelan government chooses. Too many American politicians and perhaps too many Russian ones consider the only REAL government of a small country to be one that agrees with them.

Neither Russia nor the US should say that we only respect the course that a REAL Ukrainian or a REAL Venezuelan government pursues if it is consistent with our vision of what their policies should be. Neither of us should "set that course for them".

And in any case, the bigger issue here was Crimea, and that's already settled now. Russia would likely go to war over that, the Ukraine not so much.

I don't think the rest of the world thinks that Crimea is as 'settled' as you and Vladimir do since no other country recognizes the sovereignty of Russia over Ukraine.

While the conquest of Crimea has made Putin quite popular at home, it may come back to haunt him. It is an expensive acquisition in the sense of required spending on infrastructure needs particularly in terms of the provision of water and electricity, 80% of each come from what remains of Ukraine. Electorally, what was roughly a 50-50 country between the pro-Russia and pro-Europe factions has lost a big chunk of its pro-Russia voters. On a national level the pro-Europe politicians are going to have a much easier time getting elected and the pro-Russian ones a much tougher time. Eventually that is likely to bring the EU right to Russia border - something that strategically Russia had wanted to avoid.

[KoKo]

27. In the land of the current blind supporters of the US Department of State's

disastrous, manipulative and threatening interventionist policies over the world.. the One Eyed Man is King--not ignorant. imho....

[JackRiddler]

14. So I guess the CIA shouldn't have fucked up Ukraine

[Adrahil]

36. Yeah, it was the CIA< not that kleptocrat Yanukovych selling Ukraine to Putin.

SSSUUURRREEE it was.

[leftynyc]

22. I voted no for entirely different reasons

No good guys/gals here. Both sides suck. We should stay out of it (said the same about Syria).

[L0oniX]

12. Let me know when our homeless and jobless who've fallen off the roles get their delivery of aid.

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. New Russia is hand to glove to the Monroe Doctrine

And it is much older than Monroe.

Oy

And foreign policy is realpolitik

[alarimer]

17. Because otherwise Putin wins

And he's a fucking fascist asshole.

[JackRiddler]

18. Same argument was made for Saddam, roughly speaking.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

19. Should JackRiddler provide evidence to support his assertion that a western-sponsored coup....

...happened in Ukraine?

I vote yes.

[JackRiddler]

24. Thanks for kicking this important thread.

[KoKo]

28. Oh...no...not this again.. n/t

[go west young man]

20. Fuck no!!!!

They are in bed with neo-fucking-nazi's.

Stephen Cohen now fully onboard for exposing the US role in Odessa massacre.

Stephen Cohen criticized the US government on Monday for its unwavering support of the Kiev government.

http://www.thenation.com/blog/179799/stephen-cohen-us-applauding-war-crimes-ukraine

Excerpt from link:

Appearing on Democracy Now!, Cohen addressed this weekend’s hastily convened referendum on self-rule in Eastern Ukraine, calling it “no more or less legal than the government in Kiev,” which seized power in February. Cohen condemned the US response to attacks by Ukrainian troops in the Eastern cities of Mariupol and Odessa, where dozens of pro-Russian protesters were killed in a fire two weeks ago. “What did the US government say?” Cohen asked, “Did it say ‘we regret the loss of life?’ Did it say, ‘there should be an investigation?’ No. It said, ‘Kiev has the right to restore law and order.’” If a war crime was committed in Eastern Ukraine, warns Cohen, “we applauded it.”

[Adrahil]

37. I guess you prefer this:

[JackRiddler]

42. Are those the only choices?

Speaking of false dichotomies.

Is that all you see - a coalition of neoliberals and Svoboda vs. Stalinists?!

Do we have to send covert aid, arms, materiel, expertise, declarations of support, etc., to any of the sides in Ukraine?

Is there a requirement that the State Department and CIA meddle in the politics of every nation?

Is the history of this meddling in any way encouraging? Has it been good for the world, has it been good for "American" interests? I don't think so!

[Adrahil]

47. I would hope not.

I think the rather casual labeling of the Kyiv government as fascist is inaccurate, for example.

[JackRiddler]

48. Svoboda is neo-fascist, no?

And they are in the Kiev government, holding the No. 2 position as well as the security and defense ministry - I'd think the most important one.

It is a government that includes fascists in power positions, that tolerates them as the enforcers. That's very bad, no?

Nevertheless, that doesn't make the Kiev government per se fascist. However, the "casual labeling" is more often than not projected on to those who reject the Kiev government, who blame it for some or most of the unres, or who don't want to see it as any kind of desirable ally for either progressive politics or for the U.S.

It's also the case that if you reject the Kiev government as an ally of the U.S., and do not support the drive to a new cold war (not a casual label), you are (usually) casually labeled a supporter or "lover" or apologist of Putin (again, as if the only choices are these).

So is that the choice?

[Adrahil]

49. Svoboda has only a small representation in the government.

Though I appreciate your more nuanced representations here as opposed to more truncated and strident pronouncements.

There is plenty of "badness" to go around in Ukraine. No group has a monopoly on corruption, or narrow-mindedness.

And while I do NOT like Kyiv softly accepting right-wing groups as "enforcers," I think the actions Kyiv was taking towards disempowering them were progressing well until Russia decided to scoop up eastern Ukraine. It's hard to move towards stability and liberalization when your big, powerful neighbor decides to carve off parts of your country!

And yes, there is a drive to a new cold war. But guess what, It wasn't the west that decided to invade Georgia in 2008. It wasn't the west that decided to annex Crimea. It isn't the west calling eastern Ukraine "New Russia." Putin is being aggresively nationalistic and imperialistic in eastern Europe. I think it's clear that he intends to claw back as much of the old Soviet Union as he can, under his new Nationalist Russia.

I would be less inclined to consider some here "Putin apologists" if they took a more balanced approach to a problem like Ukraine. It destroys credibility, IMO, when it is implied the the US caused all the trouble in Ukraine, despite the all the evidence of Russia's duplicity about its role in the snatching of Crimea, and some who openly support Russia in its efforts.

It doesn't HAVE to be either or, but many here seem to drive it that way.

[go west young man]

50. Once again.....the imperialist Putin meme falls apart if one applies a little

deductive reasoning.....1) Russia could have easily invaded or weakened any of the "stans" long ago...they didn't.
2) Russia could have easily taken all of Gerogia back in 2008....they didn't. 3) Russia has consistently focused on economic growth internally, using the money from EU oil profits to grow the economy and enhance new construction, social programs, and increase benefits for citizens. They have cut crime in half since 2001 by putting people to work. Crimea was a chess move based primarily upon security-it also had historical implications. Stephen Cohen has covered most of this stuff already as have many American Russian scholars.

Check the CIA Factbook or the IMF/World Banks own recent historical analysis (pr-Ukraine destabilization) to see that Russia was an economic threat due to extremely fast growth due to quick adaptation of capitalism. Russia was never an imperial threat....it suits the US to keep pushing that propaganda for their own nefarious reasons (dancing with neo-nazi's comes to mind) but it has no basis in fact based reality. Simple deductive reasoning shows this.

[go west young man]

43. Your do realize that is Putin's opposition party right?

They get less than 20% of the vote and are one of the reasons why people think all Russia is still the old USSR. Putins party is called the United Russia Party....they received roughly 50% of the national votes in the last election. Economically Putin is actually considered a little progressive....in many areas he's forced to use outdated technology due to aged infrastructure....but Russia is currently working with MIT on the Skolkovo Project for new tech and start ups....and there are many companies helping transition older tech into software based programs.....Putin is conservative on many social issues.....obviously....hence the anti-homosexual beliefs and policies.

[Adrahil]

46. Right sector gets less than 20 % of the vote too.

That doesn't stop you from labeling the entire Kiev government as fascists.

And it WAS Putin's government who proposed a policy explicitly rejecting the "European" values of multiculturalism and tolerance.

[go west young man]

52. Russia's military and defense is not controlled by neo-nazi's.

If it was I'm sure the nukes would have started flying long ago. When the total government sidelines the neo-nazi's in Ukraine then you may have a point. Those communists in Russia are sidelined, thankfully, and believe it or not Putin goes after the neo nazi's and fascists...even the ones who beat gay people. Russia recently persecuted one of the gay video bashers...even going to Cuba to get him.

[go west young man]

56. The Communist Party of Russia....which I am no fan of....

doesn't go and burn the opposition alive. You do realize what you are defending right? Communists are one thing.....nazi's who perform ethnic cleansing are another.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

55. ...........

[go west young man]

21. If you read this and still vote yes...then you may want to consult a psychiatrist.

Link to the official US government website for USAID. That US government site officially states that USAID INCREASES SUPPORT FOR MEDIA AND PRESS FREEDOM IN UKRAINE
For Immediate Release
Friday, May 2, 2014
USAID Press Office

http://www.usaid.gov/news-information/press-releases/may-2-2014-usaid-increases-support-media-and-press-freedom-ukraine

This support takes place on May 2, 2014- the very same day of the Odessa massacre.....now look at what the Kiev Post publishes on May 3,2014, the very next day...

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-russia-behind-kidnapping-of-osce-military-observers-updates-videos-346066.html

Headline at link reads:
Police say pro-Russians accidentally set fatal Odessa fire with Molotov cocktails (LIVE UPDATES, VIDEO)
Print version
May 3, 2014, 6:45 p.m. | Ukraine — by Kyiv Post

Now take a look at the way these people died....and attempt to figure out all these "accidents"...Warning graphic photos: Pictures are of corpses in various states of death. http://ucmopuockon.livejournal.com/5885397.html

[TBF]

23. US out of Ukraine.

In the 80s on campus we were shouting "US out of El Salvador" ...

... the more things change the more they stay the same.

[JackRiddler]

25. As of May 15, 38 votes, 66% no.

[JackRiddler]

26. A conspiracy theory has taken hold at DU...

in which everything bad that happens in the Ukraine is the result of action by ethno-Russians and the president of Russia. Even though the latter especially, no matter how evil, has no interest in a civil war in Ukraine, or in annexing territories that Russia was already exploiting economically, but that as new Russian provinces would come with their own built-in, violent insurgency.

Adherents of this conspiracy theory (not always a bad thing) simultaneously push the coincidence theory that the obvious, announced involvements in the Ukrainian situation of NATO, the State Department, the CIA ("NED&quot , the FBI and a variety of Western-oriented capitals and kleptocrats do not matter and mean nothing. These involvements in the banker Yatsenyuk's group began long before they came to power.

There is a move on to trivialize the open public endorsement of the State Department for extraconstitutional regime change (sounds like a coup!) as a matter of Victoria Nuland harmlessly handing out cookies.

This is a consistently upheld double standard on behalf of a fantasy that there was a democratic, legitimate transition, or that the present government is not destroying the country by fomenting civil war, when it so evidently is. This view dispenses with examination of what's actually going on and it's nonsense.

Part of this move is to blame the coup on the elected president, who was forced out of office. The charge is that he chose to flee. Perhaps Yanukovich indeed fled in a cowardly fashion, or perhaps by fleeing (after clearing out some of his plunder) he averted (for that time) the bloodbath that the Nazi forces on the ground had already initiated. There are worse things he could have done than to sneak out in the middle of the night. I wonder, if he had gone for the Tiananmen Square solution, would that have engendered more respect? Perhaps the Putin-obsessed supporters of US imperialism's new Ukrainian venture would have been more impressed with the small-time kleptocrat Yanukovich if he'd made some bellicose speech pitting the West against Russia in an ongoing war, like Yatsenyuk did on May 9th. Standing tall for World War III!

Why does this matter now?

Who is in charge now? The government chosen by State Department-CIA, NATO and EU, using disaster capitalism to impose austerity, being willing to incite ethnic civil war so as to maintain its power, working with Nazis, burning people for protesting, dressing up its attack helicopters in UN colors, and (as of May 9) talking up a war with Russia in which the West is supposedly already standing tall alongside the Kiev regime.

As an American, my primary concern should be whether the American government takes a side in this conflict materially, gets involved with aid, money, arms, announcements, ultimata, and the risk of a World War, or else engages in negotiations and forces its Kiev wild-dog to back down.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

29. You do live on a different planet than the rest of us, don't you?

...or perhaps by fleeing (after clearing out some of his plunder) he averted (for that time) the bloodbath that the Nazi forces on the ground had already initiated. There are worse things he could have done than to sneak out in the middle of the night. I wonder, if he had gone for the Tiananmen Square solution, would that have engendered more respect?

1. The bloodbath was initiated by the gov't. Indeed, the demos were small until they cracked down hard on the people gathering in the square, then they got big. Then he had to flee after he initiated a bloodbath.
2. He did go for the Tienanmen solution. OK, didn't use tanks, but that was about it.

The actual sequence of events was:

1 - After a bunch of people were killed on the Maidan, he fled. Then the parliament appointed an acting gov't and scheduled elections for May 25.
2 - Things calmed down.
3 - Then Russia started trouble in Crimea, eventually annexing it, with the only bloodshed being Ukrainian army soldiers who were killed for no apparent reason, since there was no fighting going on there.
4 - Things calmed down.
5 - "Spontaneous" unrest erupts in the east, on cue, even though those regions had been quiet right up to the point where Crimea was annexed. Unlike the Maidan folks, these guys show up as heavily armed, to the point where they are capable of shooting down helos with SAMs.
6. Finally, and this is the real point, the Nazis in the rest of Europe support Putin. If Ukraine is such a Nazi gov't, why aren't they supporting it?

The entire thing is a strategy right out of Karl Rove's playbook: accuse your opponents of being what you in fact are. Just ask Jobbik, Marine Le Pen, the Northern League in Italy, etc., who they are supporting. Or, most tellingly of course, Alexander Dugin. Then come back and try to claim the Nazis here are in the Ukraine gov't.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

30. Just to let you know, that's a cut and paste of his response to me.

After I asked him what evidence he had that there was actually a coup that supposedly forcibly removed Yanukovych from power. And of course he couldn't tell me, since there's no evidence that Yanukovych was violently forced to leave against his own willpower. (To the contrary, the video evidence shows Yanukovych having valuable items from his mansion casually packed away before he flies away on his own helicopter). So I'm probably the "conspiracy theorist" of which he speaks. Because I don't believe....I don't know.....cookies? That I don't see the non-existant evidence of the coup that he loves to talk about but can't prove that it happened?

The funny thing is, he strawmans me and claims my answer to everything is Putin and Russia. And the thing about that is up until the end of Maidan and Yanukovych flying himself and his oil paintings off to Russia, Russia was pretty much a side player in all of this. Yanukovych was constantly on the phone with Putin for moral support, but that was about it.

It was only until after Yanukovych left the country and the interim government took over that Putin, sensing that the Ukrainian government was at its weakest (isn't it curious that opponents of the Ukrainian government simultaneously paint it as incompentent and ineffective and also the second coming of the Third Reich?) that Russia started playing games--first with Crimea, and now with Eastern Ukraine. It's pure imperialistic opportunism on their part. And I'm sure they would love it if the May 25th elections get postponed or disrupted, so they can continue to play the "illegitimate unelected government" canard.

But as to our friend Jack, he could be from another planet. He certainly is true to his last name, that is for sure.

Oh, and he also loves it when you kick his posts. I don't know why--maybe it gives him validation or something. So Jack, this one's for you--KICK!

[Benton D Struckcheon]

33. Well, I don't play with Nazi sympathizers,

so he's on ignore after this. Just wanted to see if he was willing to engage facts. The unwillingness to do so marks him as a fellow-traveler to Marine Le Pen and the like.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

34. I'm not a fan of the ignore function, but you won't be missing much.

Clearly he likes his posts kicked (giving that he actually begs for them in his OPs), and if I can make at least one person happy--even a delusional conspiracy theorist who can't back up his claims with documentable evidence--I'm there to oblige. What can I say, it's who I am.

Hey Jack--KICK!

[JackRiddler]

35. Then you should be angry about the Kiev government.

I understand now, thanks to your impeccable logic, that either I'm with the Nazis who are participating in the present Kiev government, or I'm with the French National Front. No other choice is conceivable, as you have made clear.

So to apply your logic with equal clarity and fairness, this means you're with McCain, right? Here he is with Yatsenyuk and the Svoboda leader (a Ukrainian fascist if not outright Nazi).



Because that's the most important thing, according to your logic. American Republicans support the Kiev government, so your unwillingness to engage this fact means you must be a fellow traveler, right?

So shocking!

[JackRiddler]

32. I live on Planet Earth. You on Planet Propaganda?

I don't know who "us" is to you, but the majority of people on DU and very likely in the world see things much closer to my understanding. Not that I'm therefore right, or that I haven't changed my mind about various things. (Originally I thought Ukraine was having a real revolution, and maybe it was, though it's pretty clear that a coup government took power.) But you have no case to present my views, right or wrong, as some kind of fringe rarity.

Now, your sequence:

1 - After a bunch of people were killed on the Maidan, he fled.

A bunch of people killed by whom? In clashes between which forces? In part by snipers - who were they?

Here comes your most hilarious omission (between 1 and 2) and outright lie (#2).

Then the parliament appointed an acting gov't and scheduled elections for May 25.
2 - Things calmed down.

First, the acting government happened to be under Yatsenyuk, former central banker and choice of Victoria Nuland, who runs the Arseniy Yatsenyuk Foundation, which lists as its partners NATO, the State Department, the NED (CIA), a Ukrainian oligarch with ties to the best-known Western oligarchs, and Western capital funds. Said government set about exploiting the disaster capitalist moment to impose a brutal program of austerity as dictated by the EU and IMF, who already destroyed the Greek economy with the same formula.

#2 is quite the stretch! Things never calmed down! The government under said Yatsenyuk included the extreme rightist Ukrainian ultranationalists of Svoboda with their Nazi-like rituals and apologetics for Nazi history, to run the police ministry! And on its first day, this government abolished Russian as an official language of the state -- an unmistakable ethnic signal that caused Russian speakers throughout the country to rise up.

Thus, this is a lie:

3 - Then Russia started trouble in Crimea, eventually annexing it,

Thus, in the wake of Ukrainian ethno-nationalists toppling the elected government and sending a clear signal that ethnic Russians were going to lose rights in the new order, the Crimea, an area of Ukraine that was previously part of Russia and populated almost entirely by ethnic Russians (and where Russian military was already based) understandably rose up and asked to get the fuck out. Again, this happened right away, things never calmed down! Russia immediately accommodated the Crimean majority, seizing the moment to impose its own imperialist interests.

Russia has a strategic interest in taking over Crimea and also no trouble doing so, since it was already occupied by Russian military bases. Russia has less interest in taking over eastern Ukraine, especially since it has a more mixed population. Russia was already exploiting eastern Ukraine economically. All it gets if eastern Ukraine were annexed is a new area of violent insurgency. This is why Russia has not actually made moves to take over eastern Ukraine, contrary to the Western propaganda.

4 - Things calmed down.

No, they didn't. Maybe you stopped paying attention, or CNN stopped covering it for you because they were busy with the Malaysian flight.

5 - "Spontaneous" unrest erupts in the east, on cue, even though those regions had been quiet right up to the point where Crimea was annexed.

Also untrue. This unrest -- possibly of the majority in the region, certainly of a very large proportion of the people -- was actually a rejection of the Kiev government, from the beginning.

Unlike the Maidan folks,

who had tolerated and included, albeit as a minority among them, the Nazi shock troops of Right Sector, as well as (possibly, at least according to the Estonian foreign minister), snipers shooting people at random to make chaos and topple the government

these guys show up as heavily armed,

"these guys" turn out to be most of the population demanding autonomy, as the vote the other day showed - a tainted procedure (albeit less so than the means by which "Yats" came to power) but clearly demonstrating hundreds of thousands of peaceful people against the Kiev government.

to the point where they are capable of shooting down helos with SAMs.

Because not all members of the security forces and army of the multi-ethnic Ukrainian Republic wanted to participate in the suppression of the majority in the East. Given that the Kiev government is attempting the violent suppression of the protests in the East, and fronting an ethno-nationalist ideology that directly threatens Russians, it's not much of a surprise.

6. Finally, and this is the real point, the Nazis in the rest of Europe support Putin. If Ukraine is such a Nazi gov't, why aren't they supporting it?

This is not any kind of point at all!

Nazis and ultranationalists come in their national varieties. Sometimes these clash. They can be ideologically almost identical yet still hate each other when they are in a dispute over the same territory (as happened with nationalist hardliners in Yugoslavia).

All you're saying is that the Russian nationalists and right-wingers and Nazis have better connections with their counterparts in the EU than the Ukrainian nationalists and right-wingers in Nazis. So? Is there a Nazi internationale that determines who the real Nazis are?

It doesn't change the fact that Right Sector are Nazis and participated in Maidan. Are you saying Svoboda is not apologizing for Ukrainian Nazis of the past, and using Nazi-like rituals and salutes?

No, you are avoiding this fact, because you have no answer for it: the Ukrainian Nazis are currently part of the government! Who cares if they don't have approval from Marine Le Pen or the Greek Golden Dawn? They're still Nazis. In the government!

[reformist2]

31. I think it's a matter of time before the current regime in Kiev is dumped, and a pro-Russian puppet

is installed. Our neocons were and are complete fools for thinking it will end any other way.

[JackRiddler]

38. Most important ministry is run by neo-fascist!

The current Secretary of National Security and Defence in the Ukraine government, Andriy Parubiy, comes from the Svoboda party. They are quasi-Nazi, neo-fascist, ethno-nationalist.

Svoboda also has the deputy prime minister and thus holdes two key power positions in the Yatsenyuk government.

Last year the World Jewish Congress asked the EU to consider banning Svoboda, alongside the more famous (until now) openly Nazi party of Greece, Golden Dawn.

http://www.channel4.com/news/svoboda-ministers-ukraine-new-government-far-right

The funny thing is that Svoboda and Golden Dawn don't like each other. Although both are ideologically similar, the Greeks feel more of an affinity for Russian revanchism. That's the thing with fascisms of different countries. Sometimes they run into each other and have a dispute over territory they both claim. The poor Ukrainian Nazis are being frozen out by the European fascist international. Bizarrely, there are some on DU who therefore claim this means Svoboda isn't really Nazi, since foreign Nazis dislike them.

But while Golden Dawn and Svoboda disagree about which of them is the true, honest Nazi and which is a mere Zionist deception, the World Jewish Congress knows Nazis, and understands they're still Nazis even when Nazis from different countries oppose each other. I'll trust their opinion.

So now, when you hear intelligence claims from the Ukrainian government, remember who is running the "Security and Defense" ministry responsible for such claims!

No worries, Americans: The guy at the top of the government isn't a Nazi. He's a banker, and that's good, right? He's working for the State Department, CIA ("NED&quot and NATO, and imposing an austerity plan demanded by the EU and IMF, so he's okay! Not at all ideological - just a humble servant of economic necessity. If it means he has to team up with a Nazi or two... what do you want? Those leftists, they don't want to play capitalist ball!

[KoKo]

40. Good Points...worth a read..

as are all your well thought out posts. Interesting and well worth the read.

[JackRiddler]

41. Thanks. The more I read on this...

the clearer it is for me that Ukrainian politics followed up on the oppression and corruption of the Soviet system with another 25 years of pretty thorough corruption.

You see a succession of kleptocrat politicians associated with oligarchs. There are no limits on campaign spending. The kleptocrats are a small elite. You see the same names over and over, they keep rotating in and out, Yanukovich, Tymoshenko, Yatsenyuk. One year's enemies can easily become next year's allies. They start new parties and switch politics easily. It's about where they each see their advantage at a given time. The oligarchs also rise and fall in influence.

The disaster now comes from the global crisis, the rise of ethnic-nationalist antagonisms, and of course fear of the Russians. The disastrous meddling by the American government and the EU has backfired thoroughly. The Maidan uprising had legitimate grievances, but the end result is a regime change to the next configuration of kleptocrats, run by an especially obvious Western tool.

This government has been so dangerous because they're willing to ally with Nazis and raise the ethnic antagonisms. You have to wonder what kind of idiots they are to have abolished Russian as a state language. Didn't they think there'd be an uprising in Crimea? What did they think would follow?!

I hope it can still be saved for a peaceful outcome. There's no good conflict that can come of this, no progressives or radicals with a chance at power, no one with power right now we should want to root for.

Seriously, we should pick between the ethnic-nationalist fantasies of right-wing Ukrainians or those of right-wing Russians?

But for certain interests in the West I guess the short-term profits from resource and financial plunder, and the benefits of leaving a chaotic situation on the Russian borders, and the thrill of a new cold war to justify imperialism and military spending are all considered worth the price.

If only we didn't have the bullshit about freedom and democracy and Putin who is the new Hitler and how he's so radically different and more evil and worse for the Ukrainians than the Western imperialists who currently hold the upper hand in Kiev and are taking the place apart.

[go west young man]

44. The whole thing has been quite surreal thus far....

it's going to be interesting to see what happens over the next few weeks with the next referendum and the May 25th "election". And is the US still going to try to blame and pressure Russia? And if so....what are they really expecting to happen.....the holes been dug and pushing Russia further constitutes more digging. There's also the Republican aspect....I'm sure they are about to pull out a new strategy opposing this strategic blunder, even though they were a big part of it.

[KoKo]

45. Sorry...my post was off topic for the poll...

Summers & Russia during 90's is a topic for another day.

[mwrguy]

51. Hunter Biden needs the job security

Support Ukraine attached all costs.

[JackRiddler]

53. May 17: 60 votes, 67% say no.

[JackRiddler]

54. The real question right now.

Most of us are Americans.

What should U.S. policy be?

[JackRiddler]

57. New Kiev Prez Asks for Military Aid!

Invokes spirit of "Lend-Lease," no less!

Ukraine’s Poroshenko says he wants direct U.S. military aid
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014812366

[JackRiddler]

58. The July 2014 Bump