Which Part of a Woman is 23% less than a Man?

[sheshe2]

Our Minds? Our Hearts? Reproductive Organs? Legs? Which Parts?

[taught_me_patience]

1. This is completely and totally false

and posting things like this actually discredits the movement. The 77% figure do NOT account for occupational, education, tenure, or hours worked differences. Therefore to say "for doing the exact same work" is a complete and total falsification of an already dubious factoid.

[sheshe2]

2. You have a link? Here's mine~

Did You Know That Women Are Still Paid Less Than Men?

On average, full-time working women earn just 77 cents for every dollar a man earns. This significant gap is more than a statistic -- it has real life consequences. When women, who make up nearly half the workforce, bring home less money each day, it means they have less for the everyday needs of their families, and over a lifetime of work, far less savings for retirement.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/equal-pay/career

[taught_me_patience]

5. Again, they are using an "average" fulll time male vs. full time female

it does not take into account occupational differences. Here is an article that explains it clearly:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/02/01/no-women-don-t-make-less-money-than-men.html

Men choose higher paying professions:
Consider, for example, how men and women differ in their college majors. Here is a list (PDF) of the ten most remunerative majors compiled by the Georgetown University Center on Education and the Workforce. Men overwhelmingly outnumber women in all but one of them:

1. Petroleum Engineering: 87% male
2. Pharmacy Pharmaceutical Sciences and Administration: 48% male
3. Mathematics and Computer Science: 67% male
4. Aerospace Engineering: 88% male
5. Chemical Engineering: 72% male
6. Electrical Engineering: 89% male
7. Naval Architecture and Marine Engineering: 97% male
8. Mechanical Engineering: 90% male
9. Metallurgical Engineering: 83% male
10. Mining and Mineral Engineering: 90% male

And here are the 10 least remunerative majors—where women prevail in nine out of ten:

1. Counseling Psychology: 74% female
2. Early Childhood Education: 97% female
3. Theology and Religious Vocations: 34% female
4. Human Services and Community Organization: 81% female
5. Social Work: 88% female
6. Drama and Theater Arts: 60% female
7. Studio Arts: 66% female
8. Communication Disorders Sciences and Services: 94% female
9. Visual and Performing Arts: 77% female
10. Health and Medical Preparatory Programs: 55% female


Yet, they poster you provided clearly says "for doing the same work". That is completely and totally false.

[BainsBane]

9. It is true

Many of us have been in jobs only to learn men with lesser qualifications earn more.

Also, as more women move into a field, the pay goes down. Academia is a clear example, as is k-12 teaching.

[RobinA]

57. Men CHOSE

higher paying professions, or traditionally male professions are higher paying than traditionally female professions?

I am in counseling psychology and social work and I work in a psychiatric hospital. So, Mr Electrical Engineer, what does your average day look like? I'm assuming you have a Masters degree, because I do. Talk anybody out of killing themselves recently? Been hit upside the head?

Look, I got no problem with what male professions make, I'd just like to see a little parity.

[Major Nikon]

58. I'd like to see people doing unskilled work get a little parity

Why should doing skilled work in a climate controlled environment pay so much more than unskilled or low skilled work that's often under very adverse conditions?

Inequality between professions exists for lots of reasons which have absolutely nothing to do with sexism. How much does someone make swinging a hammer on a hot roof and what is their day like? Or for that matter how about someone making beds in a hotel room. Why should they be paid the absolute minimum allowed by law?

[redqueen]

61. You're changing the subject instead of addressing the issue. And everyone knows why. nt

[Major Nikon]

64. So why didn't you address this to the person in which I was replying?

Everyone knows why, BTW.

[redqueen]

65. Is it because, as you've repeatedly posted, sometimes no means yes?

You know the percentages I'm sure. How many women say no to sex when they really mean yes? And what makes that claim so compelling that people like you would still be posting about it.. how many decades after they asked... how many women?

Oh sorry, I was changing the subject myself that time. Oopsie.

[Major Nikon]

67. And I've said repeatedly those were the claims of two academic feminists

So while you're taking my posts out of context, seems fair to post some of yours in context

I think a huge part of "transgender" issues are psychological.

Body dysphoria is a psychological problem, not a medical problem to be "corrected" with surgery and hormones.

...

The movement to push this trans-identity stuff on everyone without giving anyone a chance to analyze it beyond "that's what people say and if they say so then that is so."

At some point people stopped saying 'transsexual' and started saying 'transGENDER' and that's when someone should have slammed on the brakes and said back the frick up. NOW.

...

Oh those big mean meanies, being so mean to the poor trans community.

What a hot, steaming load.

Such shameless, scheming liars they are.

I bet you didn't know I knew about those posts of yours, did you?

Very revealing, to say the least.

Cheers!

[redqueen]

70. You posted that 'study' to defend the claims of Warren Farrell, that sometimes date rapists were

just confused.

And you posted it here on DU.

I'm aware of your little campaign to go find posts on other sites and try to use them against people here. Fun hobby for you and your friends, is it?

Either way, I stick to what I know people here posted. I'm sure I could go to the MRA subreddit or to various other sites and find the sources for so much that is posted here, and dig up dirt on those that spread the talking points here, but I actually have a life.

[Major Nikon]

73. Sounds like you're the one confused

I suspect it's willful since all of this has already been covered ad nauseum. Your claims about "actually having a life" are more than just a bit weak when you're dragging up shit I posted months if not years ago and still pathetically trying to make something out of it. Farrell himself referenced and footnoted that very study in the very same book his words were taken out of context. I added the context which you keep conveniently ignoring as if anyone with more than a handful of synapses actively firing is not going to notice.

Here's the very study referenced by Farrell which was conducted by no less than two academic feminists. It's notable how you replied to the post which kinda makes it hard to claim you're ignorant of the facts which you keep trying to misrepresent (and faceplanting magnificently).
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1114&pid=8752

If you're so sure I've posted hateful shit on other sites, knock yourself out. If you can find any I'll kiss your ass and give you till noon to draw a crowd. Meanwhile I'll take note how you are reallyquiet about taking ownership of your transphobic comments. It must really suck to get up in the morning and hate people just because their plumbing doesn't match their gender identity. Get a life indeed. And yes, it is fun when people who live in glass houses are throwing rocks at people and coming up a bit short. Damn fun even.

[redqueen]

74. LOL, you're posting shit from some other site that who knows who posted it... and how long ago?

yeah tell me some more about "dragging shit up"

Meanwhile here you are in action on just one of the many occasions that you wave around that decades-old, seriously flawed study (how many college students did they ask, again, major nikon?) and you are shamelessly citing it to back up Warren fucking Farrell.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=904664

Well done. Seriously. Thank you. I could not have asked for more. Please, do continue.

Your opinions on feminist issues will be given all due consideration. I assure you.

[Major Nikon]

77. "who knows who posted it"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024787933#post98

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024787933#post146

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125541529#post19

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11148743#post53

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024270394#post139

If it quacks like a duck....

[RobinA]

68. While I Don't Disagree

with your point about unskilled labor and parity:

Roofer median pay - 15.26/hour
Hotel Housekeeper median pay - 8.56

See, Payscale.com

would seem to support my pay in tradionally male jobs versus pay in tradiionally female jobs point.

Guy jobs tend to pay more than girl jobs across all SSE levels.

[Major Nikon]

69. Do you think it's harder to find someone to make beds

...than it is to find someone who is willing to swing a hammer on a 2 story roof in 100 degree+ weather?

http://www.deseretnews.com/top/1940/7/Roofers-The-most-dangerous-jobs-in-America.html

There's nothing stopping women from applying for roofing jobs. Do you think that the fact that they don't in any significant number is discriminatory?

[RobinA]

71. I Was Responding to Your Examples

No, I don't think it's harder to find people to make beds. Although I do think that if one were to put these two jobs side by side and examine what actually goes on at the job you'd find that there's a lot more odious parts of the hotel job than just making beds. For instance, I believe the rate of sexual assault is higher than that experienced by the roofer.

I believe that the point I was originally making was that traditionally male jobs tend to pay more than traditionally female jobs as a result of their maleness. There is nothing stopping women from applying for traditionally male jobs. However, women who do so and get the job are frequently subjected to some pretty significant gender-based bullying.

[Major Nikon]

76. Your point completely ignores the law of supply and demand

If employers could systemically pay female workers less for the same work, then why would they ever hire males? The idea that employers conspire to pay male workers more than female workers is not a good one because profit motives work completely contrary to it.

Gender-based bullying is certainly a problem, but it's also illegal and unsustainable. Any employer who tolerates it is either not going to stay in business very long, or they are going to face very expensive EEO complaints and lawsuits until they stop tolerating it.

Rather than some grand conspiracy to keep the women folk down, it makes a lot more sense that parents and other people are simply raising girls and women to believe that they should only be working in certain jobs and they are raising boys and men to believe they are better suited to jobs with more adverse working conditions. When half of the work pool is simply not going after certain jobs, it only makes sense that supply and demand results in higher salaries and wages.

[bettyellen]

78. "When half of the work pool is simply not going after certain jobs..."

So, men are applying in equal numbers for those low paying jobs making beds at hotels? Seriously?

[Major Nikon]

79. They aren't for the same reason women aren't applying for jobs roofing houses

So long as people are telling kids their gender defines what jobs they should pursue, inequalities in outcomes are going to exist. This doesn't necessarily translate to inequalities in opportunity. When 60% of college graduates are women, it's hard to imagine how they are at a disadvantage. At some point you have to respect the choices they are making even if those choices are resulting in unequal outcomes. It's not as if the US is some kind of statistical aberration, either. Sweden, a bastion of feminism, has a gender wage gap which is larger than the US. I just don't think it's because men are conspiring to keep them down.

[bettyellen]

81. And not because they KNOW they can make double the pay unskilled? LOL, sure thing.

[Major Nikon]

83. So women don't know this too?

[hughee99]

85. If it paid the same as roofing, they would.

Then then increased number of applicants would drive down the wages to where they wouldn't.

[RobinA]

86. Don't Know Why

they'd ever hire males. Well, except that males are apparently "better." I worked in retail management where there were about 9 of us managers. The most recent hired were two guys with less than a year's experience in a different type of store in departments with different merchandise. Those two guys made more then all but two of the existing managers. More than people with more expereince and larger departments.

Not a gender issue, but to refute your point that if management does it, it must make dollers and cents - I was one of the lowest paid managers because I was promoted from within. I made 25% less than people they hired off the street with NO experience. Why would they hire off the street and pay more when they could have gotten all the management from within and paid less? AND known what they were getting? I dunno.

[Major Nikon]

90. Managers aren't always the smartest guys in the room

I say this as a manager. Why do they hire off the street when they can promote from within for less? Who knows. It could be they have had bad experiences with promoting from within and are reluctant to do so. It could be they are short on certain employees and feel it's cheaper to train a manager than another employee. It could be they are lazy and only want to go through one hiring process rather than two. I'm less interested in what goes on anecdotally vs what goes on systemically. In general, businesses want to get as much production as they can for as cheap as they can. If they don't, someone else probably will and beat them at their own game.

[joeglow3]

118. I need more facts

Specifically, how long have all the other employees worked there? We just hired a female manager in our tax department and she makes more than most of us. However, it has nothing to do with gender. Any manager knows it is cheaper to develop talent than it is to buy talent.

[joeglow3]

116. How many hotel workers fall off a roof and die?

[FrodosPet]

141. A friend of mine was a welder when she was younger

And while part of the abuse was probably due the fact that she did not have a "charming" bone in her body (she is most def NOT a people person, very critical of others, and she called herself the "B" word on a regular basis), she suffered a lot of gender based abuse while in that occupation.

So between the abuse, the physical discomfort, and the danger involved in occupations like welding, roofing, etc - it is no wonder there aren't more women in these positions.

[Taitertots]

107. Do you really want someone to explain why skilled workers are paid higher wages?

Or is this just rhetorical?

[Major Nikon]

108. Sure

Explain the skills that McDonald's CEO Don Thompson has which justifies his $14 million salary compared to his average worker making $8.94 per hour, most of which work part time. When income equality looks more like a backwards L than a bell curve, supply and demand only goes so far.

[Taitertots]

110. McDonald's CEO isn't a skilled worker. I thought you ment engineers, Welders, electricians....

[Major Nikon]

113. So why don't they pick up CEOs at the unemployment office?

You can take it to whatever level you want. Whenever market forces are allowed to determine the wages of unskilled labor, there will always be a race to the bottom so long as there's a ready supply willing to do the same job for less. Given that the business cycle is always going to swing both directions, this will always be the case at some point. The ultimate result is the fast buck employers make off of cheap labor hurts everyone who isn't at the very top of the heap.

[Taitertots]

114. I'll take your post as an indication that you either understand why skilled employees get higher...

wages or you have no interest in having the reasons explained.

[Major Nikon]

115. Both actually

Where you got that I didn't understand it is anyone's guess.

[Taitertots]

117. You asked it. I asked if you wanted it explained to you. You replied that you did.

"Why should doing skilled work in a climate controlled environment pay so much more than unskilled or low skilled work that's often under very adverse conditions?"

"Do you really want someone to explain why skilled workers are paid higher wages?"

"Sure"

It is pretty clear that you have no interest in having a reasonable discussion about this topic after your repeated disingenuous posts.

[Major Nikon]

127. "pay so much more" is the key phrase here

It doesn't mean I don't understand why skilled work pays more than unskilled work. It means I'm questioning a society that grossly undervalues unskilled labor. Are you actually going to claim you got something else out of it? Really?

The fact that I have to explain something to you that was quite clear to the person I was actually replying to simply demonstrates either how disingenuous you were to begin with.

Cheers!

[alittlelark]

125. Fascinating - the 'Mens Ten' are all (almost) F'ing w/ the planet+ ppl...

Dirty and polluting industries, pharma, mining, military......


The 'Womans 10' are all working with others to make the world a better place.......

I find that deeply disturbing and will spend some time contemplating that......

[taught_me_patience]

6. Here is another

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christina-hoff-sommers/wage-gap_b_2073804.html

If you believe women suffer systemic wage discrimination, read the new American Association of University Women (AAUW) study Graduating to a Pay Gap. Bypass the verbal sleights of hand and take a hard look at the numbers. Women are close to achieving the goal of equal pay for equal work. They may be there already.

How many times have you heard that, for the same work, women receive 77 cents for every dollar a man earns? This alleged unfairness is the basis for the annual Equal Pay Day observed each year about mid-April to symbolize how far into the current year women have to work to catch up with men's earnings from the previous year. If the AAUW is right, Equal Pay Day will now have to be moved to early January.

The AAUW has now joined ranks with serious economists who find that when you control for relevant differences between men and women (occupations, college majors, length of time in workplace) the wage gap narrows to the point of vanishing. The 23-cent gap is simply the average difference between the earnings of men and women employed "full time." What is important is the "adjusted" wage gap-the figure that controls for all the relevant variables. That is what the new AAUW study explores.

The AAUW researchers looked at male and female college graduates one year after graduation. After controlling for several relevant factors (though some were left out, as we shall see), they found that the wage gap narrowed to only 6.6 cents. How much of that is attributable to discrimination? As AAUW spokesperson Lisa Maatz candidly said in an NPR interview, "We are still trying to figure that out."

[hfojvt]

20. 6.6 cents on the dollar isn't really "almost equal"

for a $16 an hour worker, it would mean a $1 an hour pay gap, over $2,000 a year.

But I don't see how even the 6.6% gap can be real. I just interviewed 3 men and one woman for a job. A crappy job, but one they applied for. One other female applicant refused an interview because she had already gotten another job.

I kinda wanted to hire the woman, but my female supervisor preferred one of the guys.

Anyway, my point is, the wage was advertised in the paper. If we had hired the female applicant she would have made EXACTLY what the male applicant will make. Not 6% less. Not 2% less. Not even 0.003% less.

I am sure that is true for lots of jobs. A female GS-7 makes EXACTLY as much as a male GS-7, at least if they are in the same location. There are variations for location, but there is no GS scale for females that is even 1 penny an hour less than a GS scale for males. Because there is only ONE GS scale, for men and women.

[okaawhatever]

25. I don't think anyone questions the pay equality for civil service workers, it exists mainly where

you have subjective hiring and pay plans that there is a disparity. Also, the same work for the same job is fine as long as both have equal opportunity for advancement. Do you really think that some of these right wing business owners view a woman as competently as a man? I had to supervise men who didn't believe in a woman boss because the bible tells them a woman shouldn't be over a man. Do you think I was paid the same as my male counterpart? No....that is one of the reasons Lily Ledbetter act is so important. I left the company shortly after I realized I was being paid less, but I shouldn't have had to. Now if someone were to calculate my earnings at my new job would they say I deserved to be paid less because I had less seniority? That would be a case of my being paid "equally" for my work when seniority is considered, but really being paid less because my experience was equal and my lack of seniority was due to discrimination in another form.

[taught_me_patience]

39. 6.6 on the dollar is a real issue

and I'm in full support for doing every thing we can to narrow that gap. Heck, if that poster the OP posted said 6.6%, I think it would be great.

I'm against using completely false statistics for purposes of an agenda.

[RobinA]

87. Exactly Why

I went civil service after 28 years in the private sector. The civil service has its own form of gamesmanship, but my particular situation put me in a better position to play the state employment game. I have since maxed out my advantage, but it was good for a few thousand a year. Plus I have a pension and above average job security.

[Major Nikon]

94. Even set pay scales don't guarantee equal pay

The reason being overtime isn't considered and men tend to work more of it. Civil service workers along with many other employers provide paid time off. When an employee exhausts that time off allotment they don't get paid when they aren't at work.

So it's possible even in that situation to have a gender pay disparity.

The 77% figure comes from the BLS and the only consideration is for people who work more than 35 hours. Tenure isn't considered. Number of hours worked beyond 35 isn't considered. Overtime work isn't considered. Marital status isn't considered. Number of children isn't considered. Occupation isn't considered. Union participation isn't considered. On and on it goes.

Also from the BLS you can find that an even more significant gender work gap exists. Men spend 40% more time in compensated work related activities compared to women.

[DanTex]

60. Another by the Christina Hoff Sommers?

Yes, I'm sure she has written the same thing in many different places. Anything by someone other than a anti-feminist libertarian from AEI?

[redqueen]

62. She's very popular with certain posters here. nt

[joeglow3]

119. Are you arguing she lied about the results of the study?

[Major Nikon]

59. Obama pays his female staff 88 cents on the dollar compared to his male staff

So by that logic this must mean Obama is a misogynist.

[lumberjack_jeff]

129. "Full-time" Men work 5 more hours per week.

That alone justifies a 15% pay gap due to the fact that some of that additional 5 hours is overtime.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/wlf-databook-2012.pdf
(see page 77)

Additionally, from the same link, 10% more men work 50 weeks or more annually (69.4% vs 59.4%)

And they do it in hazardous professions; 92% of workplace fatalities are men.

Correcting for all these things results in a pay gap of between zero and 7%. Well within the range that would be expected from men's willingness to negotiate for salary, and women's bias toward benefits rather than wage.

Pay gap rhetoric from the white house is simply pandering.

[RainDog]

3. Not to mention all the work women do for "free"

that impacts their earning capacity for a lifetime... still, in many situations.

[Silent3]

4. All parts together, by weight

OK, OK, even that's about 85% of a man, on average. (164.7 lbs. vs 194.7, US, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_weight#Average_weight_around_the_world .)

[Nye Bevan]

7. Utterly bogus, and has been comprehensively debunked.

If this was true, why wouldn't all corporations eagerly be hiring all women to reduce their labor costs by 23%?

[BainsBane]

11. So the President and VP

and other leading party figures are all lying? They use that figure all the time.

It hasn't been debunked. It's been explained, justified. Not the same thing.

[hfojvt]

16. not entirely

I'd say the Whitehouse is being deliberately misleading as well.

But that seems to be popular and defended vigorously.

[BainsBane]

21. No, they say it exactly like the OP does

because it is true. If the OP is a liar, then the entire Democratic Party is.

Calling someone a liar with no evidence is vicious, particularly when she says what every Democrat says, while you are advancing the GOP view.

[sheshe2]

50. Hey, BainsBane.

Thanks for what you said.

I've been having a crappy day and didn't feel like coming back here. Car repairs and lots of them, they just gave me a rental for work tomorrow, since it will take another day. That sound you hear?!? That's me banging my head against the wall. One step forward, three steps backward. Sigh~

[StrongBad]

95. Please see my OP regarding evidence

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4962541

The party might not be lying on this issue, but they just as well might be ignorant.

[joeglow3]

120. If the shoe fits

I agree with the previous poster that most people are ignorant. The very study that provides the 23 percent number explains what accounts for much of the gap.

[BainsBane]

122. Justifies

Last edited Sun May 18, 2014, 12:04 AM - Edit history (1)

Women earn less for a whole host of reasons due to sexism. Just about every women has been in a job where she earned less than a lesser qualified man, for the same job. Other reasons have to do with child birth and child care. You think that's a sound reason? It's a manifestation of sexism. All of the "explanations" don't erase the fact that there is a wage gap, The fact the GOP stonewalls legislation to try to erase that gap is revealing, as is the fact that so-called liberals take the same position they do.

[joeglow3]

123. So, how do we know a gap even exists

The very study that "proves" the gap, explains most of it. Are you saying they were honest in quantifying the gap, but lied about the reasons?

[HornBuckler]

22. But if they use that figure all the time then Nye's question is valid, no?

[Nye Bevan]

30. If you have a link where the President or VP uses the phrase "for the exact same work",

then I would be interested to see it. Because that is definitely incorrect.

[Bandit]

43. How would anyone know, since Republicans blocked the Fair Pay Act

Women are STILL unable to even ask what any of their co-workers make.

[VanillaRhapsody]

12. bogus huh?

Being born White and male is a DISTINCT advantage:

as of 2010 compared to White male's salaries in the U.S. (at 100%)

Black men 74.5% (of White males salaries)
Hispanic men 65.9% (of White males salaries)

White women 80.5% (of White males salaries)
Black women 69.6% (of White males salaries)
Hispanic women 59.8% (of White males salaries)

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0882775.html

This is Elementary my dear....

[Donald Ian Rankin]

15. Yes, totally false.

Your statistics are nothing more than a misleading smokescreen, I'm afraid - the lie in the OP was "for the exact same work".

[VanillaRhapsody]

36. statistics mean nothing now?

We just start ignoring all "statistics" because you think they are a smoke screen?


Women and minorities DO make less money "for the exact same work"

bless your heart....

[hfojvt]

18. "median annual earnings"

meaning - it is just the middle, it does not mean the two sets are doing "the exact same work".

That set of statistics doesn't even say if it is talking about ALL workers or all full time workers.

[VanillaRhapsody]

38. OH yes.....those statistics STILL stand for the 'exact same work"

File:US Gender Pay Gap by industry


Women's median usual weekly earnings as percentage of men's, for full-time workers, by industry, 2009.[8]

File:Average earnings of workers by education and sex


This is a chart illustrating the inequality in wages between men and women when educational attainment is controlled. 2006 data

Some more "statistics" for ya:

Women in every state experience the pay gap, but some states are worse than others.
The best place in the United States for pay equity is Washington, D.C., where women were paid 90 percent of what men were paid in 2012. At the other end of the spectrum is Wyoming, the worst state in the country for pay equity, where women were paid just 64 percent of what men were paid.

The pay gap is worse for women of color.
The gender pay gap affects all women, but for black and Hispanic women the pay shortfall is worse Asian American women’s salaries show the smallest gender pay gap, at 87 percent of white men’s earnings. Hispanic women’s salaries show the largest gap, at 53 percent of white men’s earnings. White men are used as a benchmark because they make up the largest demographic group in the labor force.

Women face a pay gap in nearly every occupation.
From elementary and middle school teachers to computer programmers, women are paid less than men in female-dominated, gender-balanced, and male-dominated occupations.

The pay gap grows with age.
Women typically earn about 90 percent of what men are paid until they hit 35. After that median earnings for women are typically 75–80 percent of what men are paid.

While more education is an effective tool for increasing earnings, it is not an effective tool against the gender pay gap.
At every level of academic achievement, women’s median earnings are less than men’s earnings, and in some cases, the gender pay gap is larger at higher levels of education. While education helps everyone, black and Hispanic women earn less than their white and Asian peers do, even when they have the same educational credentials.

The pay gap also exists among women without children.
AAUW’s Graduating to a Pay Gap found that among full-time workers one year after college graduation — nearly all of whom were childless — women were paid just 82 percent of what their male counterparts were paid.


AND are you going to contend that White men DESERVE to make more than Black or Hispanic men? Because that is also NOT A SMOKE SCREEN!
http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

[hfojvt]

41. being in the "same industry" does not mean doing the same job

A woman who works at Hardees and a man who works at McDonald's are in the same industry.

Yet, if they are not paid the same, it's not because of discrimination.

A man who has been at Dairy Queen for five years and a woman who just got hired last fall, may be doing the same job, but should they be paid the same? One has five years of experience and the other does not.

A man and a woman with the same hourly rate will have different total earnings if they work a different number of hours, but there is NO wage disrimination involved (although there might be some favoritism over WHO gets the hours).

You simply do NOT compare job to job by comparing medians. Show me a man who gets hired at Wal-mart for $9 an hour and show me a woman hired at the same time, for the same job, for $8.10 an hour and there's a wage gap.

Just compare a bunch of medians by industry and you are NOT comparing equal situations.

Stuff like THIS is just stupid.

"The pay gap also exists among women without children.
AAUW’s Graduating to a Pay Gap found that among full-time workers one year after college graduation — nearly all of whom were childless — women were paid just 82 percent of what their male counterparts were paid."

Like they all have the same major and are working for the same employer in the same job classification. Oh no, it's discrimination when a man hired as a systems analyst for Honeywell in Chicago makes more than a woman hired as an accountant in Topeka, Kansas. They are both one year out of college, they should make the same income!!

Or else it's a pay GAP dammit! It's unfair!!!1 Discrimination!!!

NONE of those "statistics" are comparing people in the SAME job for the SAME employer in the SAME city.

[VanillaRhapsody]

42. and denial is not a river in Egypt...

62% of those collecting Minimum wage are women......guess what percentage of them are also raising children by themselves?

[hfojvt]

55. you should know

Last edited Mon May 19, 2014, 11:25 AM - Edit history (1)

you are the one floating on it.

Minimum wage? Is that $7.25 an hour?

Or is it $5.58 an hour for females?

Generally a person with a minimum wage job is NOT doing the same job as somebody who has a job that pays more than minimum wage.

Are we talking about discrimination in hiring, or are we talking about women making less for doing the "exact same job" like the OP said?

Which would mean either that the female minimum wage is $5.58 an hour or that the male minimum wage is $9.42 an hour.

[VanillaRhapsody]

106. When was the last time you had a minimum wage job?

are you saying its easy money?

[Vattel]

136. I take it you are being deliberately obtuse.

[VanillaRhapsody]

137. I take it you don't know me very well...

[Puzzledtraveller]

111. Awesome reply!

[VanillaRhapsody]

138. that is bunk and you know it....

if you weren't a White male you wouldn't be blinded by privilege and you would see it...

I provided statistic after statistic to prove my position.....


Where are you getting YOUR "information" from? Anecdotal evidence doesn't count....put up or go home...

[hfojvt]

142. never underestimate my own ignorance

you provided "statistic after statistic" and they were all based on ONE thing - median incomes.

I tried to explain why that is not a valid comparison.

Consider just this one of your "statistics."

"The pay gap also exists among women without children.
AAUW’s Graduating to a Pay Gap found that among full-time workers one year after college graduation — nearly all of whom were childless — women were paid just 82 percent of what their male counterparts were paid."

Is there any reason why men and women one year out of college should have the SAME pay?

Here are the reasons why they might not have the same pay - note how none of these reasons has anything to do with discrimination

1. they don't have the same major
2. they don't work for the same employer
3. they don't have the same job title
4. they don't live in the same city or region
5. they don't work the same number of hours
6. they didn't get hired at the same time
7. they didn't have the same GPA

Comparing a median to a median does not account for any of those differences, and is thus a weak argument for proving some kind of discrimination. And they certainly do not prove what the OP said - that women make 77% of what men make for doing the exact same work.

I provided LOGIC for my case, which has nothing to do with either my whiteness nor my maleness.

[VanillaRhapsody]

143. No it wasn't based on one thing.....you need to read the thread before you post....

Your response is long winded and full of Malarkey!

[VanillaRhapsody]

144. and somehow you think YOU are smarter than ALL the experts out there on this subject...

please provide WHERE you are getting YOUR evidence to support your claim just as I did over and over....put up or go home!

[hfojvt]

145. What "experts"?

Who are they and where did they goto school?

Not that that really matters.

Funny thing about "experts". AEI has them, CATO has them, Heritage has them.

Yet most liberals are convinced that the "experts" from those groups are full of crap.

And they are right to think so.

But how dare we think we are smarter than some store-bought "experts"?

That is the thing about experts - they get hired by an advocacy group, not to ferret out the truth, but to come up with statistics to convince others to support the advocacy group. They are "hired guns" far more than they are seekers of the truth.

Me, I have about the same education that they do - an MA in economics, but nobody is paying me to sell their magic potion. I have no dog in the hunt.

However, you should probably be aware of the words of the great economist Joan Robinson "The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists." http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Joan_Robinson

Ever heard of the Coen brothers? I took a course in Welfare Economics from their dad, and he wrote a letter of recommendation for me to attend graduate school.

As for evidence. I supplied that. It is called logic.

I explained, in great prolix detail how one of the sources you quoted, comparing median income of men and women one year out of college was NOT any sort of proof of discrimination. I listed a number of other factors that could account for pay differences.

Your only response to logic - to argue from authority. The "experts" have spoken.

But here I am, imagining that you are a reasoning human being, when you have already amply demonstrated that you are not.

What a waste of a tank of gas.

[VanillaRhapsody]

147. Not politician or journalist experts.....Socio Scientists etc...

You think no one studies this? Seriously?

[lumberjack_jeff]

132. Simple question. How many hours does the average "full time" woman work?

How does this compare to men?

Hint: you can find the information at the Bureau of Labor Statistics.

[VanillaRhapsody]

148. this is supposed to mean something.....

I am sure....well....no actually I am not...

[lumberjack_jeff]

130. It's not "for the same work".

It's not even "for comparable work"
It's not even "among people with comparable experience"
It's not even "the same amount of work"

It's hard to take any subsequent messages seriously when they keep repeating this ridiculous, distorted, reductionist bullshit.

[VanillaRhapsody]

149. Says you?

Where is YOUR evidence to support your position coming from?

I won't hold my breath while you never provide it...

[hfojvt]

146. here I am, reading the thread

when what to my wondering eyes should appear, but THIS in your link

(median annual earnings of black men and women, Hispanic men and women, and white women as a percentage of white men's median annual earnings)

Read more: The Wage Gap by Gender & Race Timeline History (White, Black, Hispanic, Men & Women) http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0882775.html#ixzz32EYeYC1i

MEDIAN annual earnings.

Of two groups which are NOT doing "the exact same work".

[VanillaRhapsody]

150. and you know this how?

And why should what YOU consider "women's work" be "cheaper" at this point?

Oh and just to prove why you wrong yet again...here is just one example:

Male Nurses Up 7% – And Earning 19% More Than Women - See more at: http://www.physiciansweekly.com/male-nurse-salary/#sthash.si5f8F1t.dpuf

(please name ANY single industry where women earn more than men by the way..)

And here is the report that proves you utterly wrong and blows your little theory out of the water...

Consider this scenario: A man and a woman graduate from the same university in 2009. They both major in computer science. They are 22 years old at graduation, single, and have no prior work experience. One year later, both are working full time as computer technicians in cities not too far from where they went to school.

According to a new report (PDF) by the American Association of University Women, the man would be earning a salary of $51,300. The woman’s pay would be $39,600—about 77 percent of what her male counterpart earns...
<snip...>
...But as the scenario above shows, even when women and men are in practically identical situations, their earnings start to diverge just one year out of school. That’s true across most sectors of the economy. One year out of college, female teachers earn 89 percent of what male teachers earn. In sales jobs, women earn 77 percent of what male peers earn. Women who major in business earn, on average, just over $38,000 the first year after graduation, while men earn just over $45,000. “About one-third of the gap cannot be explained by any of the factors commonly understood to impact earnings,” write the AAUW researchers, Catherine Hill and Christianne Corbett.
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2012-10-25/why-women-earn-less-than-men-a-year-out-of-school

[hfojvt]

153. that example proves me wrong? How?

"with an average of $60,700 ..."

Comparing medians again.

And are they doing the SAME work?

"* Men’s representation was highest among nurse anesthetists at 41%.

* Male nurse anesthetists earned more than twice as much as the male average for all nursing occupations: $162,900 vs $60,700."

So men are more heavily represented in a higher paying field. Not just a higher paying field, but a ridiculously higher paying field. But a field where they are supposedly doing DIFFERENT work than other nurses. Otherwise, just look at those MEN, making 37 cents on the dollar compared to other men.

And "utterly wrong"? Unfortunately the link to the actual study does not work any more. But reading the article you linked to, I keep on seeing these words - "on average". Like in this line "Women who major in business earn, on average, just over ..." and here "Teachers and physical therapists, on average, tend to earn less than engineers." and here "found that on average, women working full ..."

Nah, it's not based on medians, eh?

I was utterly wrong when I said that. That link sure proves that.

As for the example of the computer technicians. That could be a real example or it could just be made up from this - "The average for all women, at all experience levels, is 77 percent, a number that has barely budged in a decade."

And they controlled for SOME factors - "The report controlled for different factors that tend to impact pay, including hours, job type, employment sector, and college major." But those last three are pretty wide categories.

Bottom line is that the 77% figure is just a big average - and NOT a number that compares people doing the EXACT same work.

An honest advocate should be aware of that and be honest about it.

[VanillaRhapsody]

154. YES.....did you read? that is EXACTLY what it is saying....

or are you trying to insinuate that somehow ALL men somehow work harder than ALL women no matter what type of job they have....

These are studies of men and women IN the SAME jobs.....

just read and learn

Again...where is YOUR supporting evidence. I would like to see where you get YOUR information from!

Back it up! Just "whatever you believe" is not evidence to support your claims...

Note that all along I HAVE been doing so....

[okaawhatever]

28. I read something, I believe it was last year, that said women had less unemployment than men and

they quoted some info that said many of the employers during the recession were hiring women to pay them less. I can't find it now on Google but I remember something about Silicon Valley in the article. While I was looking I stumbled across this article I found interesting:

Are Women Really Less Corrupt Than Men?

A World Bank study from 2001, for instance, found that “one standard deviation increase in (female participation in government) will result in a decline in corruption... of 20 percent of a standard deviation".

But the new study by political scientists Justin Esarey and Gina Chirillo of Rice University argues that this effect is highly dependent on institutional context. In a political culture “where corruption is stigmatized, women will be less tolerant of corruption and less likely to engage in it compared to men,” they write. “But if corrupt behaviors are an ordinary part of governance supported by political institutions, there will be no corruption gender gap.”

SNIP

“in more democratic countries… men are considerably more tolerant of corruption than women.”

They also found that in 157 countries over a nine year time span, “female participation in government was unrelated to corruption in autocracies, but negatively related to corruption in democracies.”

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2013/09/25/gender_and_corruption_a_study_suggests_context_determines_whether_women.html

[bettyellen]

44. There were some articles that women had gains when unemployment dropped, but the gains were

mostly in lower paid service jobs. So thy got called back into the workforce more in lower paying jobs, where women were already comonly employed. I know I saw people spinning it that this was some greatthing for women.

[MADem]

8. Well, their feet are usually smaller...

Otherwise, they'd be able to use them to give bigots and discriminators a well deserved ass-kicking....

(I kid, I kid...but I do think they're discriminated against...)

[moriah]

23. That's where the spike heels come in handy. n/t

[MADem]

48. Perhaps there's a market for those Knife Shoes that Frau whatsername wore in the Austin Powers

film?

That would level the playing field!

[William769]

10. I will happily rec this sheshe.

Don't let the naysayers get you down. I am astonished and quite frankly ashamed of some posts in this thread.

Keep kicking ass because we love you for what you do.

[VanillaRhapsody]

13. Kick and recc'd

[Donald Ian Rankin]

17. The sad thing about this lie is that it's an uneccessary lie.

To reiterated what's being pointed out upthread: the "77c/100c" figure that's often quoted does *not* refer to "for the exact same work"; some of it comes from women being paid for the exact same work, but most of it comes from other sources.

But good, honest, solid evidence of women being discriminated against *does* exist: it's identical-resume tests, not the wage gap.

[noiretextatique]

19. it is something you will never experience, Donald

like I have, because my name is Karen.

[etherealtruth]

27. The Simple Truth about the Gender Pay Gap (2014)

http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/

March 10, 2014

You’ve probably heard that men are paid more than women are paid over their lifetimes. But what does that mean? Are women paid less because they choose lower-paying jobs? Is it because more women work part time than men do? Or is it because women tend to be the primary caregivers for their children?

AAUW’s The Simple Truth about the Gender Pay Gap succinctly addresses these issues by going beyond the widely reported 77 percent statistic. The report explains the pay gap in the United States; how it affects women of all ages, races, and education levels; and what you can do to close it.

This breaks earnings of men and women down by profession, it is very eye opening
http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat39.pdf

[chervilant]

29. Repeatedly saying sheshe's OP is a lie

does NOT make you right. The wage gap may have improved slightly, but it's still a grim reality, as is the glass ceiling.

[taught_me_patience]

40. The graphic in the OP is a lie

$.77 on the dollar "for the exact same work" is a complete falsification of statistics. If the graphic had left out "for the exact same work", then, technically, it wouldn't be a lie.

[Major Hogwash]

100. It is not a lie.

In fact, Democrats have been talking about the wage gap disparity for at least the last 35 years.

[moriah]

24. In my case, I was making $0.86 per dollar....

... compared to male colleagues who had far less responsibility on the project than I did.

When I found this out, I was able to negotiate a raise and they gave it, but until I knew I didn't realize it.

[okaawhatever]

26. That is why Lily Ledbetter is so important. it makes it easier for women to sue for wage

discrimination. Before you had to prove you were being discriminated against. Most companies had a policy that forbid sharing salary information, so one could not "prove" they were being paid less. If you were caught with someone else's pay contract or paycheck you would be fired so the wage difference wouldn't matter. Luckily, now that the LL Act is in effect it will be easier for women to sue when they are paid less.

[yeoman6987]

31. I understand your displeasure

But when you applied for the job, didn't they give you a number that you would work for? Did you accept that number? Would you have have turned down the job had you known a few folks made more than you? Most people are just happy to get the job.

[moriah]

32. I was the only woman on the project, remotely leading a team of 10 technicians....

... who were all, it turned out, making more than I was. A rate was offered, I did not negotiate. (Edit to add, just to clarify, I had my own route too, I was doing the job I was supervising the others in doing at the same time as they.)

In point of fact, guys whose only job it was was to move workstations around the DC were the ones I was basing my $0.86 per dollar on -- their job required no technical expertise.

When I complained to my boss, I didn't allege gender discrimination. I said it made me feel like my contributions were not valued by the company, and made me hesitant to work on projects for them in the future. I immediately got a $4 an hour raise - from $2/hr ($4,000 a year) less than the male counterparts who got to sleep all night instead of getting woken up by phone calls, to $2 more.... as befitting the work I was doing. I probably could have asked for more and gotten it.

[yeoman6987]

33. I am glad that you got more

Next time make it six dollars and then let them say no because maybe they would have said 5. I remember when I was working, I would ask for a raise every quarter.....some times I did and sometimes I didn't. It was fun challenging and being rewarded for it. My Boss would say, "not again" and I would say see how much I do.....you want me to do what the rest of them do....lol. I am a white male but I fight for what I think I deserve.

[NCTraveler]

45. Needs the sarcasm tag.

People actually make each one of those arguments and I wouldn't be surprised to see them used around here at this point.

[WinkyDink]

34. Beer gut? Ego? "Mom" tattoos?

[Vinca]

35. Hair on ears. Especially in old age.

[AverageJoe90]

37. Nothing, ma'am, you're the same as we are. 100%, no less. =)

Thanks for the post.

[snooper2]

46. body hair, women have 23% less body hair then men

[BainsBane]

47. Speak for yourself!

(Actually doesn't apply to me, but I couldn't resist).

[KitSileya]

49. Good post, sheshe2

For a very long time, women have faced intransigent opposition to every attempt to enter typical male trades, especially those that are dangerous and which the MRAs love to use as an example of "female privilege". That we are denied jobs in these trades, the practice of which are considered dangerous, is a bonus. The men want to keep the danger to themselves, and then blame the women for not stepping up and sharing the very same dangers.

The same dynamic is at work concerning salaries as well. Don't ever forget that women are punished if they negotiate their salaries as aggressively as a man, of which that New York Times editor is an excellent example

[ismnotwasm]

51. Whoa

There are people in this thread denying the wage gap. Seriously. Denying it.

Do you think they believe in global worming?

[sheshe2]

52. Seriously.

Amazing to hear what seems to be GOP talking points here.

Global warming, well some people do insist that if it snows in January then......no~

[taught_me_patience]

54. Not a single person in this thread is denying a wage gap

However, there are those that prefer to use real facts and statistics. The graphic on the OP that says "for the exact same work" is completely and totally false. If the graphic had left that phrase out, it would be technically true (although misleading).

[MillennialDem]

56. While true, why is so much of the lower wage work pushed on women and the higher

wage work pushed on men.

Not to mention the sexism a man will face in a heavily female dominated career and the sexism a woman will face in a heavily male dominated career.

[Major Nikon]

91. When women are better educated, it's hard to imagine how anything is being pushed on them

Women now are receiving 60% of the undergraduate degrees in the US.

A better question to ask is why are women selecting education tracks that lead to lower paying jobs.

As far as the sexism women face, in many heavily male dominated fields like construction, women actually earn more than men.

[MillennialDem]

92. As a woman who majored in math (M.S.) I faced a decent amount of sexism. I've heard it's worse in

applied math/science fields (like engineering).

As for why women are choosing degrees that often pay less, also probably cultural and sexism to an extent ie Jane you are good at x, major in it, despite the fact that y pays more. And y is for boys. etc. Either explicitly or implicitly - I was also told by several that I am the except to the rule as a woman being good at math... and I'm a millennial so this wasn't something that was happening back int he 1960s :p

For construction, is it for equal work? Or is it that women in construction almost always have degrees and are in management and technical stuff, where loads of the men are the blue collar grunts? Or something else? Not doubting you, just interested.

[Major Nikon]

93. The question is whether the sexism is cause or effect

In the most progressive countries, the exact same disparities still exist and even more so in some. So if sexism is the only explanation, then why do countries with less sexism see the same or larger disparities? In Sweden, 1 out of 3 women work part time compared to 1 out of 10 men. Is it because women in Sweden experience more sexism, or is it because women in Sweden have more choices?

[bettyellen]

98. Sweden has policies that are family friendly and encourage moms to do that, here the burden is on

single moms to work- they are the breadwinners in the majority of single parent households in the USA these days. Yet our policies and some conservative mind sets are stuck in The Leave it to Beaver era, which punished women for not holding on to their husbands at any cost. The mindset which justified lower salaries because a man would "take care of them". Men no longer have the resources to do that, as their pay is stagnating also.

The family friendly policies in nordic countries have come under fire also, for having day care that only allows parent to work part time.
Since men were historically awarded higher salaries, just like here (history you ignore, as if this phenomenon somehow disappeared overnight ) women are the ones who are pressured to work less. But at least they have child care policies. It's not working perfectly, but it is helping those families find a way to work and not pay it all out to child care.

[davidn3600]

99. Social progress always lags way behind modern political and economic realities

It's always been that way...

I mean the whole concept of a "female breadwinner" (divorced or not) is something some people can't even grasp and society doesn't know how to handle it. Our parents and grandparents were raised in the "Leave it to Beaver" era. Society is only one generation removed from that. So that is somewhat what our culture keeps trying to pull us back towards.

You can pass laws and change the political landscape, yet the society remains stubborn to change. That's not uncommon. For example, it's easy to change a law and make it legal for gay couples to marry....getting society accept that and embrace it is something that will take generations.
The Nordic countries have been putting a lot of effort into different ideas to close various gender gaps in society. But pretty much all their ideas are political and economical. The society is still resisting. Some say it just needs more time...but there is no guarantee these gender gaps will ever close.

When it comes to gender, people are stuck in gender roles... It's true in America and it's true is Sweden.

[bettyellen]

103. People are "stuck" in gender roles less and less. Perhaps in more conservative areas it will take

another fifty years to resemble what is going on in more liberal cities. Stay at home dads are a thing here these days, and getting more common all the time. Single parent households, all over the country are headed by women who bring home the bacon, the rest of you are going to have to blow the dust off your eyes, or be "stuck" in a past that hasn't actually existed for some time now.

[Major Nikon]

101. I don't really see how anything you posted is relevant to what I posted

It sounds more like you got on your soapbox in hopes I would disagree with your random thoughts so you could continue to post more tangential information.

The point which you conveniently and completely ignored was that far more progressive countries have the exact same gender pay disparities (if not worse) which provides a pretty good case that choice has far more to do with the disparity than discrimination. The idea that women in Nordic countries are "pressured" more than they are here is completely ridiculous. Gender equity in Scandinavian countries is far more stringent and has been enforced far more relentlessly than here for decades. So why not after decades of these policies are Scandinavian countries not head and shoulders above the US on gender pay disparity? Citing historical similarities only gets you so far. The reality you ignore is they have more choices, and more choices translates into more pay disparity pretty much universally or at least causes it not to change as the historical "phenomenon" moves the other direction. Rather than respecting those choices, you go marching off tilting at windmills. Not everyone wants a career. Some men and more often women choose to devote more time to family which is completely understandable if not admirable. Equal opportunity does not always mean equal outcomes.

[bettyellen]

102. Perhaps because bearing a kid was never an option for you it's not relevant. Random my ass.

Of course afford ability/ availability of child care care is going to disproportionately effect women's employment- but it should not solely effect one parent as it does today.

I never said they were pressured more than here to work part time- I said they were pressured to make their careers secondary to me- same as here. Women in general are pressured to take more time at home when their work is valued as less than. Trust me, these days when they earn more, Dad stays home. That is the trend that is happening. Money is the most common reason people make these choices, not some 50's notion that men make worse parents.

If anyone is showing disrespect to women here, it is you for piling on excuse after excuse to defend large disparities in pay that effect all women- moms or not, by pretending we actually want it that way. That is nonsense.

Historically more choices has not been creating more pay disparity- not sure where the hell you got that notion from. Women are closing the pay gap taking on jobs that they were barred from a generation or two ago. You act like that never happened. We are earning at historical high levels, due to increased opportunities and education. Opportunities and compensation are still not on par with men, but we have been, and will continue to close the employment opportunity and pay gap you believe magically closed one day in the past.

[Major Nikon]

105. Get back to me when you come up with something better than emotional appeals

The claim that because I'm not a woman, I can't possibly understand is nothing more than an appeal to emotion and is banal to the point of not being worthy of an answer.

[bettyellen]

109. It's an observation, LOL- but not shocked you misread that also. When you are incapable of listening

as you have proven yourself to be, this is what happens. An emotional appeal? You are imaginng things. Or possibly pretending to, so you can ignore historical facts. Get some sleep, you're getting really rusty at the gaslighting bullshit.

[hfojvt]

97. as a man who majored in math

I find that my degree has been almost 100% useless as a way to get a good paying job.

My niece is being much smarter, imo, becoming a math TEACHER.

[joeglow3]

121. Many professions are bending over backwards to attract and retain women

Last edited Sun May 18, 2014, 10:59 AM - Edit history (1)

Problem is many are taught not to or don't want to put in the same hours. I worked in Big 4 public accounting and 80 hour work weeks are not uncommon. I had a stretch where I worked 100+ hours a week for five weeks straight. Many of my female counterparts did not want that and left.

The firms are now trying to do everything they can to attract and retain women. My previous firm is now offering two months paid maternity leave for all women and four months paid for manager and above.

http://www.deloitte.com/view/en_AU/au/about-us/culture-beliefs/ca47b3d77f1fb110VgnVCM100000ba42f00aRCRD.htm

[Rex]

89. Kewl story bro!

[taught_me_patience]

96. Prove it. Exactly which post are you referring to. n/t

[delta17]

159. Cool thoughtless meme response. nt.

[redqueen]

63. It's nothing new here. nt

[Major Nikon]

66. There are people here denying the baseless cause for the effect

Which is not the same thing.

When even a feminist organization (AAUW) agrees that the vast majority of the "23%" is NOT due to "equal pay for equal work", you can be pretty well assured those who claim it is have some serious denial issues.

[951-Riverside]

53. *grumbles* Brains, body frame, hands, feet, bone mass...

So hey, I can't stick around because I've got this really important thing to take care of at the ...ummm thing.

Bye!

[StrongBad]

72. Everybody interested in this topic must watch this video on the subject:

&noredirect=1

I made an OP about it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024962444

It is fascinating and backed with science. Rational thinkers would be intrigued.

[Jenoch]

75. Chromosomes

[dawg]

80. Nope. That second X is way bigger ...

than our odd little Y.

[Jenoch]

82. It was satire. Both genders have 23 chromosoms.

[dawg]

84. I know.

I was just playin' back.

[Rex]

88. K&R for pissing off all the right people!

Want to piss off a certain group of male posters? Just mention wage inequality and watch them lie through their teeth. Pathetic and sad to see on a progressive forum.

[shawn703]

104. There is a pay gap

Even for the exact same work. I am a manager in the IT field, and I see the salary differences first hand between my male and female employees. There's very little I can personally do to make salaries more equitable though - even if the female employees are approved for a higher percentage merit increase than their male counterparts, that really does nothing to close the wage gap when the men are starting at significantly higher salaries.

My advice would be when you are offered a new job, negotiate your starting salary as high as you can. Don't be afraid to ask for an out of cycle raise or promotion if you think you are worth it. If you are told no, don't be afraid to look at options elsewhere. If I never did any of those things, just took a yearly 3% raise every year for the last 17 years, I would be making less than a third of what I make now.

[bettyellen]

112. Yes, the best way for women to earn more is to negotiate hard, and turn it around...

you want someone who is unafraid to negotiate hard for the best outcome, and that is me. After you are there- if you are a woman- don't expect them to take it as well when you ask for more. They judge us much harsher for it. Only ask when you have a bargaining chip, and get ready to pack it in if it doesn't work out.
In the civil service, whenever they stopped monitoring, everyone went out of compliance immediately and started handing out more money to the dudes again. It will take another century before we reach parity becuase this shit is ingrained. Fellow purported "liberals" here have laundry lists of excuses for it. Idiots do not realize this is part of why their salaries are eroding. They have to compete with us now. We deserve parity, and we will get there.

[joeglow3]

128. You work in a shitty field

I work in accounting and, at worst, women are paid equal in every international company I have worked for (four now).

[bettyellen]

131. It has got both good and bad parts to it, and was worse 25 years ago- the pay discrimination was

widely acknowledged by the bosses too. One boss told me he had to pay a single (10 years less inexperienced) guy as much as me when I had that job because he was dating and had to pay for the dinners. Yep, he spent more money on his salary when it didn't make sense. I think he felt more important supervising men because he didn't have much respect for women, and he could pal around with, and live vicariously through this guy. (who fucked everything up and lost his job 6 months later when they caught on)

You used to hear things like that said outright to your face in smaller companies, and worse there were inappropriate comments and harassment going on all the time too. Women had little recourse, but we would exchange stories and it was common in many fields. You can't afford to sue these people because they will get there people to cover up and have more money for lawyers. Plus, I love my field and didn't want to get blacklisted, so I just moved on.

Things have changed a lot in 25 years, and I work at a much larger company now where they actually do try to compensate women equally, and where harassment is almost non existent because they take policies those seriously and have real HR, not just an accountant. If you have always worked corporate, or weren't in the market 15-25 years ago, or are a man, I could see how you'd doubt things were that bad and that common. But they were.

[joeglow3]

133. I would guess small companies are shitty.

Most big companies know better. They realize they are competing for talent and that two relatively untapped markets are women and minorities. They have flat out told us they will accept a female/minority candidate that is qualified before a more qualified white male.

They recognize we don't have enough of either and that can be a hinderance to attracting highly talented people in both groups. They are willing to pay the short term price of accepting a slightly less qualified candidate today, knowing it will pay off down the road.

[bettyellen]

134. The advantages are you can learn so much, I was pretty much running my dept in 18 months,

and knew the processes and a hell of a lot of creative fixes from top to bottom in a few years. I made a good salary once I had acquired a strong skill set.
The downside is you are chained to it, there is no support and even taking a three day weekend is a very big deal.
And corporate types want to hire corporate types so I would not have even been considered had I submitted an app through normal means, I sort of got in through the back door, by consulting first. The corporate lingo and culture was something that took a while to get used to, because you really have to tip toe around problems and forget speaking your mind. I could live without all the bureaucracy too, it seems designed to make sure no one is ever accountable! But the enviornment is different, when you see a mixed bag of people at different levels it's encouraging. When you don't see it, you are very aware of the ceiling that exists. I am sure it doesn't occur to 90% of the men there to notice. Women and POC just can't afford to notice if it's a workplace where you will never "fit in".

[MohRokTah]

124. Do you really want an honest answer?

If so, then I'll give it to you.

It's the roughly 23% of women who side with the misogynists.

It's the women like Ann Coulter and Phyliss Schafly who genuflect to the patriarchy.

That's the last bit that needs to be removed.

When you get rid of their thinking, nobody will ever be able to make another false argument against equality.

[Lunacee_2013]

126. It's some of the responses to threads like this one that

make me get off the net, turn off my tablet (for days on end) and go outside. Who cares if its 23%, 35% or just 10% less, the problem is that we still get less money for doibg the same thing.

I know life will probably never be completely equal, but that doesn't mean I, or anyone else, have to stop fighting and just live with it. Jesus, between this and all those women's clinics getting shut down, if we ever stop, even for a moment, we women will be forced back to being real second class citizens. I never want to go there.

Thanks for posting this sheshe2. I use to think that by the 2000's humankind would be past this shit, but I guess we all still have some work to do.

[hfojvt]

151. who cares what the truth is?

Just pull a statistic out of the air, and anybody who questions it is a traitor to the cause.

[Lunacee_2013]

157. Totally, it's not like those statistics have any real effect on people's lives or anything. Nt.

[Spirochete]

135. Their arm

Ever see one try to throw a ball?

[YoungDemCA]

139. Lots of reactionary bullshit in this thread

Sad.

[FrodosPet]

140. I'm doing my part to help

By lowering the average for men.

And in the company I work for, everyone is making exactly the same. Not enough!

More than that, only females have been getting hired for the job since 2011. So there is some little points of light that more women than men are getting management jobs SOMEPLACE in America.

[merrily]

152. Misognist psychiatriatrists invented penis envy.

Supposedly all females feel as though they must have been castrated at some point in time, or some such nonsense.

Then again, those are the same folks who brought you the distinction between nymphomaniac, victims of illness and objects of pity (at the very, very best), and studs, objects of universal admiration and/or desire.

Then again, in the 80's, the differential in salaries was 30%, so that arc of the universe is still bending, albeit slowly. And, yay! we can vote.

[Scootaloo]

155. I'm more surprised at the snotty replies, than i am about who is making them

Typical cast of DU's right-wing gender bigots.

[Shankapotomus]

156. Eyebrows

Definitely eyebrows.

[Laura PourMeADrink]

158. I would have to say "not being in charge" and in power to

make things more equitable.