Cosmos & Neil Degrasse Tyson state that Great Flood occurred in Sumeria & retold as Noah's Ark

[E-Z-B]

Anyone see last night's episode? Creationists aren't going to be happy that Neil showed how the Great Flood was a Sumerian legend and retold 1,000 years later in the Old Testament.

He went on to discuss how life arose on earth, either in shallow water, underwater volcanic vent, or meteors from another world / solar system.

He also took aim once again at climate change deniers.

Should expect hate statements from creationists again this week. Love this show!

I'm just waiting for Oklahoma/Kansas/Arizona/Louisianna to pass a bill banning public schools from showing "Cosmos" to school children.

[cantbeserious]

1. Thank You For Sharing

eom

[AllTooEasy]

97. My Catholic HS taught us that Noah's Ark and Creationism were BS

...during my sophmore year in 1986! How do these fundies still buy it???

Okay, maybe not bullshit, but rather a parable with a deeper and more meaningfull lesson than the literary narative.

BTW, I went to DeMatha Catholic High School in Hyattsville MD. Go Stags!

[nikto]

99. No, Noah's Ark totally happened

Noah counted and sorted the different types of bacteria and other micro-organisms very carefully
before taking them onboard.

He even saved the viruses.

Noah had really good eyesight.

His only screw-up was with the unicorns.

[eridani]

119. Same thing for my Catholic high school in 1962

There were quite a lot of arguments about directed evolution vs the standard Darwinian sort, though. Me, I figured that if God was smart enough to invent the operating laws of the universe, He'd get it right the first time.

[TexasProgresive]

122. Pretty much the same in my Catholic H.S.

64 to 68. The skill that was emphasized over all others was critical thinking. We were to think things out for ourselves and be able to express and defend our thinking.

[riqster]

124. My Presbyterian minister taught the same thing. Allegory.

Same with the first part of Genesis.

[RVN VET]

138. Hell, I went to a Catholic grammar school -- in the 1950's, yet -- and

was told by the nuns that evolution did not run counter to Catholic theological thinking. In fact, i think a 19th century pope actually described Darwin's theory of evolution as not incompatible with the faith. (Excuse me, I mean "the One True Faith." Sorry, Sister Perpetua Marie!)

(Lest you think the Church was truly embracing of knowledge: the infamous "Index" was still very much in force at the time and works such as Gibbons History of the Fall of the Roman Empire was actually forbidden -- at least until sometime after John XXIII was installed. The professor of a history class I took at a Catholic college had to get a special dispensation even to quote from it!)

Evolution was never ever ever an issue in my religious education. There were a lot of other reasons I ultimately left, but the Church said I was OK if I accepted the scientific theory of evolution as the fact that it so clearly is.

[FSogol]

2. Great show. He's building up to a big climax of telling all the repubs that they are idiots for

ignoring climate change. He manages to poke creationists and other religious extremists in the eye every episode.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

54. I figured he would show that Reagan wasn't give a place in the stars despite Nancy's astrology.

[oldandhappy]

3. This show is my priority for the week.

Cosmos is great. Last night was great. I had read Gilgamesh recently so was delighted to see the reference. And I totally believe God can do all this. God is not limited by the limited understanding of a few folk.

[northoftheborder]

102. yes.

[JJChambers]

133. God is only limited by, and only exists in, the imagination of humanity.

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. Noah, in the Sumerian story was named Utnapishtim

And the boat was 120 cubits. I guess they built bigger boats 3000 years before the new testament.

[hobbit709]

5. The ancient Hebrews just filed off the serial numbers and claimed the story as their own.

[sakabatou]

157. Wasn't the boat cube-shaped?

[lumberjack_jeff]

163. This predates the rubic system, i.e. "Rubics cubits". n/t

[sakabatou]

164. But the boat was a cube

From Tablet 11 of the Flood story:

Carpenters, reed workers, and other people assembled one morning.
(missing lines)
Five days later, Utnapishtim laid out the exterior walls of the boat of 120 cubits.
The sides of the superstructure had equal lengths of 120 cubits. He also made a drawing of the interior structure.

[lumberjack_jeff]

165. Translating from Sumerian is probably problematic.

But I read this as a redundancy; the length of the superstructure is the same direction (longitudinal) as the length of the ship.

[sakabatou]

166. *shrugs*

[arely staircase]

6. retold as Gilgamesh before the Noah myth

There was some sort of localized flood and maybe even a raft with some animals that inspired several similar myths in the region.

[WinkyDink]

42. What makes you think the flood was "localized"? (See: Titicaca, Lake.)

[arely staircase]

45. because a flood covering the who earth seems implausible. nt

[jmowreader]

58. In those days they didn't realize there was a "whole earth"

People didn't travel, so they didn't realize there was a world beyond what they could see from where they were. The legend probably said something like "there was water as far as you could see" and the people who wrote the Bible changed that to "the whole earth was flooded."

[arely staircase]

59. sure but their known earth would be localized by real global standards nt

[Blanks]

83. There was an episode of ancient aliens...

Last edited Tue May 20, 2014, 03:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Where they talked about the Tigris and Euphrates valley where Adam and Eve were first 'created' being flooded at the end of the last ice age (about 10,000 years ago) the valley was flooded because glaciers were holding back a bunch of water.

It could have been in the area that's now the Mediterranean Sea, but the point is that as the glaciers melted from the last ice age and areas were flooded as a result of 'dams breaking' flooding would be likely.

My issue with the Noah's ark believers is the unlikelihood that someone - anyone took a big unmotorized boat around the world delivering kangaroos to Australia elephants to Africa (smaller eared elephants to India) llamas to South America and raccoons to North America. I just can't buy that. That's the big hole in the story to me.

That and the fact that it takes more than 2 members of a species to prevent extinction according to the population calculations that are performed in differential equations.

[arely staircase]

92. I am guessing the Tigris and Euphrates flooded a lot

At some point there was one or more flood that covered all the (known) world. This gave rise to the various flood myths from that area around that time - Noah's story being one, but not the first, of those.

[Blanks]

93. Sure, but they ancient alien episode...

Talked as though - that area is still underwater. So the evidence of that civilization would be more difficult to study.

If this kind of cataclysm happened because of global warming - it's possible that's what happened to Atlantis as well. Perhaps in a manner similar to the way hurricane Katrina damaged New Orleans.

[arely staircase]

94. you lose me at ancient aliens every time. nt

[Blanks]

111. I'm kind of joking...

I could say a documentary I saw on the history channel (and that's true), but the research on the show appeared to be from valid sources - it's their conclusions (involving aliens) that one should listen to with skepticism.

There seems to be some agreement among scientists that the last ice age ended from 10,000 to 12,000 years ago. That coincides fairly closely with the flood legends - so I'd like to see more information about floods (from scientists) during that time frame.

[FlaGranny]

127. Ancient Aliens

I like the show because of all the real mystery and history revealed. Of course they say everything was the result of ancient alien help, which is nonsense, but it's hard to deny that the show brings up many intriguing historical mysteries. It's where I learned there was a place called Puma Punku - a completely fascinating place and the first time I heard of the Tiwanaku.

[Blanks]

160. I know.

They have caves in Turkey that they think were big enough to not only house the people, but the livestock.

As far as archaeological digs and the really neat places (quite a lot of them in Peru) there is no equal. It is just the conclusions (obviously aliens) that are crazy.

[Calista241]

153. Extinction

Supposedly, the human race approached extinction nearly 70,000 years ago. The population declined to less than 2,000 humans worldwide. I find it interesting that biologists are finding that humanity was far more biologically diverse 70,000 years ago than they are today.

[Codeine]

103. Are you trying to say Lake Titicaca was formed by a world-wide flood? nt

[intaglio]

113. You are refereing to the Tihanaco ruins (and terracing) from, at most, 1500 years ago

No, they are not antediluvian.

[morningfog]

126. What is the significance of Lake Titicaca?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

7. Saw it - imagined fundie heads exploding

as soon as he started in on Gilgamesh and the Sumerian flood legend.

[jberryhill]

8. Why?

Do you think that fundies would find it at all remarkable that other cultures have flood stories?

The fundies use that as "proof" there was a global flood.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

13. Because it suggests that the Genesis story

wasn't original - that another culture had an almost identical flood story a thousand years before Genesis; that there was no Noah, just some guy named Utnapishtim. The point is that the Bible repeats a much older legend and changes it just enough to eliminate some inconvenient parts, like the fact that the Sumerians were polytheists, and after the flood one of them, Enki, granted Utnapishtim immortality. The fundies believe in the exact, literal truth of the Bible, and do not respond well to the suggestion that the stories in the Bible were just rewrites of somebody else's myth.

There probably was a huge flood in that region some time during the Bronze Age, or earlier, that would account for the flood legends.

[jberryhill]

20. Have you ever spent time with actual Bible believers?

First off, there were lots of floods in the Tigris and Euphrates river valleys. That's the entire reason why agriculture was developed on flood plains.

Second, they don't claim the Genesis flood story is "original", they claim it is "true". The fact that other cultures have flood stories merely confirms what they already believe to be true. Obviously where they differ on details is simply where any other story is wrong.

If you want to snark on what some group of people believes, it works better when you are actually snarking on something they believe.

Here, from the Institute for Creation Research:

http://www.icr.org/article/noah-flood-gilgamesh/

From the early days of the comparative study of these two flood accounts, it has been generally agreed that there is an obvious relationship. The widespread nature of flood traditions throughout the entire human race is excellent evidence for the existence of a great flood from a legal/historical point of view.

[...]

The most accepted theory among evangelicals is that both have one common source, predating all the Sumerian forms. The divine inspiration of the Bible would demand that the Genesis account is the correct version. Indeed the Hebrews were known for handing down their records and tradition. The Book of Genesis is viewed for the most part as an historical work, even by many liberal scholars, while the Epic of Gilgamesh is viewed as mythological. The One-source Theory must, therefore, lead back to the historical event of the Flood and Noah's Ark.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

24. I have, in fact, spent time with Bible believers, and I didn't like it much.

Please don't condescend to me. I'm not snarking, and I don't make stuff up. I've discussed Biblical matters with some of these people, and my experience has been that they believe every word in the Bible is exactly and literally true, and that no other culture's myths or legends are relevant. Your own quote indicates that they believe only the Noah story, and that the Gilgamesh epic is merely a myth. In any event, the fact that Tyson discussed the Sumerian story and not the Noah story was probably enough to get their panties in a bunch.

There are many flood myths in many cultures, and it is most likely true that large, very damaging but nevertheless localized floods actually did occur. To people who never traveled more than a few miles away from their homes, a large flood probably seemed like it covered the whole world. The Gilgamesh/Noah legends don't prove a worldwide flood. To the extent the fundies refer to the Gilgamesh legend to support their claim that there was one is logically inconsistent. If Noah was literally true, why bother with Gilgamesh at all?

[awoke_in_2003]

51. I have met many Christians that are like

what Ocelot describes, and many like what you describe. You are both right.

[Ikonoklast]

21. Another fun one is asking fundies where they think angels came from.

As there is zero mention of any such thing in any book of the Bible written before the Babylonian Captivity.

The Babylonians believed in angels. The Jews, before the Exile, did not.

Nor did they believe in Satan as a 'fallen angel', or the personification of evil.

That religious concept was brought back to Israel and later incorporated into the Old Testament. Those concepts were never originally a part of that religion.

[Sgent]

155. Huh?

Jewish thought has no concept of a "fallen angel" or original sin -- that's a Christian conception. Angels certainly existed in Jewish lore pre-Babylon -- see the stories of the Job, Exodus (the angel of death) and of the fall of Sodom and Gomorrah.

[Teacheral]

31. Ice age melt.

Seas, worldwide, rose more than 300 ft, accounting for flood tales from many cultures.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

33. Many intriguing possibilities with ice dams. Alternatively, Mediterranean & Black Sea

The Mediterranean may have broken through a barrier and flooded into the Black Sea about 7600 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluge_%28prehistoric%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flood_myth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_flood_narrative

[AtheistCrusader]

40. 'Believers' already have hand-waved that away for the reason the poster above you mentioned.

That broad examples of cultural flood tales actually supports their claim of a worldwide flood.
That's their story, and they're sticking to it.

[NuclearDem]

17. Which is infuriating.

That many civilizations founded around rivers as their lifeblood mythologized the destructive yet rejuvenating force of their respective river flooding as an allegory for wiping out all evil in the world is simply proof that the Noah myth isn't original, but simply a common trope in human civilization.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

27. Large parts of the Old Testament were written after the Babylonian exile & return.

That is why there are so many similarities between Sumerian myth and bible myth.

There were three "deportations" (captivity) to Babylon in 597 BCE, c. 587 BCE, and c. 582 BCE. The return began in 538 BCE.

The Priestly source, one of the four main sources of the Torah/Pentateuch in the Bible, is primarily a product of the post-exilic period when the former Kingdom of Judah had become the Persian province of Yehud.[22] Also during this Persian period, the final redaction of the Pentateuch took place.[12]

The majority of Biblical scholars believe that the written books {of the Torah} were a product of the Babylonian exilic period (c. 600 BCE) and that it was completed by the Persian period (c. 400 BCE).[4]

-- Wikipedia

[Moonwalk]

69. The aim of all those fundie laws to get creationism into the classroom is two-fold. First...

...is to get evolution out, and second is to get the bible in. ONLY the bible.

The reason this Cosmos is so "head exploding" to such fundies is because it gently, yet persuasively puts them between a rock and a hard place. By presenting this myth, the show lets them know that if they DO argue for alternatives to evolution to be put in science classes, they might get a dozen flood myths presented to kids, which would have kids questioning the bible as the one and ONLY story they ought to believe. Although these other myths might give some credibility to a world flood being true, they also imply that the Noah is plagiarized (the taking on of all animals, the releasing of birds to find land in the alternative story, etc). And I suspect that they don't want that taught in class.

The use of this earlier flood myth by Cosmos also appropriates the ark myth for science, showing that the ark myth is (thematically speaking) actually a "reality" if one goes for science and evolution. The Earth WAS destroyed, again and again. And rocks that flew up into space with elemental earth life likely preserved that life so that it could be returned to the world, as on an ark. Thus, the show very cleverly appropriates the ark story for science, showing how science teachers might take that bible myth they must present in class and use it for evolutionary purposes...once again, undermining the aim of such fundies.

And, finally, the show is very careful to always state which of these ideas science can or can't prove (Neil presents several thoughts about life on Earth, saying that any or none might have happened given the facts we have about life surviving in space). Which again hammers home the point that if people want bible stories in the classrooms, such stories will have to be questioned, just as such theories in science are. And, again, most who want the bible in the classroom don't want that.

So. Yes, I'd say that many in the group that want the bible taught in science classes were upset by this episode. It took their ball from them and ran with it.

[jimlup]

9. Yeah this was a shot across the bow ...

I do wonder if it was a shot directed specifically because of the right/fundamentalist response to Cosmos that has occurred so far. Fascinating to see what will happen next. Whatever it is, I'm sure that Neil will handle it well.

[jberryhill]

11. One would think the entire series was taped ahead of the season

I doubt they are still putting together the final segments.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

34. Writing, pre-production, taping all done. Often editing is finishing an episode or two ahead. nt

[LongTomH]

74. I think Dr. Tyson anticipated the rightwing/fundamentalist response.....

.......both to his discussion of evolution and global warming.

When I saw this last night, I knew the fundies would be having the shits, the fits and the blind staggers!!!!

[jberryhill]

10. That's the only thing Bible-believers WON'T object to

I don't know how to break this to you, but Bible bangers know and expect that other cultures have flood stories, since they believe it was a worldwide flood and all living people are descended from a guy who rode it out in a boat.

[PADemD]

12. Flood Myths Around the World

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_flood_myths

In another hundred years or so, every country will have flood stories to tell.

[MohRokTah]

18. Civilizations always grew up in river basins.

Egypt and the Nile.

Babylon and the Tigris/Euphrates.

India and the Ganges.

And flood myths came with civilizations.

Makes perfect sense to me.

[PADemD]

38. Recommend

Hamlet's Mill: An Essay Investigating the Origins of Human Knowledge And Its Transmission Through Myth by Giorgio de Santillana, Hertha von Dechen

http://www.amazon.com/Hamlets-Mill-Investigating-Knowledge-Transmission/dp/0879232153

See customer review:

http://www.amazon.com/review/R236ENNCCKRSMK/ref=cm_cr_dp_title?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0879232153&nodeID=283155&store=books

Giorgio de Santillana
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giorgio_de_Santillana

Professor Hertha von Dechend
http://www.germananthropology.com/short-portrait/hertha-von-dechend/313

[Arugula Latte]

23. Yeah. Ironically, Noah's Ark might wind up being "true" after all, in the future.

[Louisiana1976]

76. +1!

[Prophet 451]

128. Read Ben Elton's "Stark"

It deals with exactly that scenario.

[FiveGoodMen]

156. Where will the extra water come from?

[merrily]

117. To whom?

[PADemD]

123. Yes

Wouldn't it be a kick if the name of one of the last survivors on Earth is Noah?

The name Noah was ranked number one in 2013.

https://www.socialsecurity.gov/cgi-bin/babyname.cgi

[Diremoon]

14. Good Television

Last edited Tue May 20, 2014, 12:12 AM - Edit history (1)

It is not very often that there is a show worth watching. It is a really big surprise that it is on fox. This is one of those rare programs that everyone in our family plans on watching every week. Why not have more shows like this? Tyson is doing an excellent job with it! He is the type of role models that our society needs.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

35. Fox TV is very separate from Fox News. Note the animated comedy shows. nt

[justhanginon]

15. Every time I watch the latest in the Cosmos series

I always have at least one "Oh,OH" moment on some subject and think, that ain't gonna go down well with my brethren on the right.
Another thing I have noticed that they may find worrisome is all the notice and credit given to women over the many years for discoveries they have made and other scientific advancements they have made major contributions to. I hope this would encourage young girls to consider science as they choose their life's path.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

26. I have noticed that they credit women (finally!) for a lot of important things.

I'd never heard of Enheduanna until last night.

[exboyfil]

44. Tyson has credited several women

in the previous episodes - Marie Tharp, Annie Jump Cannon, Henrietta Swan Leavitt, Cecilia H. Payne.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

50. Yes. What I meant by "(finally!)" was

that at last some women are getting the credit they deserved for scientific work; the whole Cosmos series has been doing that, and it's great. It seems like Marie Curie was the only woman whoever did anything important in science and that's just not true. And Enheduanna was the first person ever to have signed her name to a written document.

So there.

[exboyfil]

52. We are in agreement then

Sorry I misread your statement. Both my daughters are pursuing science/engineering careers so I think it is important as well. My daughters never had an interest in playing with dolls, but they loved learning about science (I have assisted in about 20 dissections performed by my younger daughter for example), and I have tutored them in science and math extensively. Computer programs, fish, fruit flys, dissections, insect collections, engineering classes, it has been a wonderful experience that I will treasure the rest of my life.

[Iliyah]

16. K & R

[LibertyLover]

19. A very good episode this week

As an Ancient Near Eastern History major when I was in college, albeit with an Egyptian concentration, I was delighted that Neil Degrasse Tyson mentioned the Gilgamesh saga and that Utnapishtam was the Sumerian Noah, whose story the Hebrews appropriated for their own. I can't wait to read some of the fundy backlash on this episode.

[The_Commonist]

22. We started watching Cosmos on Hulu last week.

I went into it thinking, "oh, those Fundies are no doubt overreacting to a few simple statements..." But no, all throughout, Mr. deGrasse Tyson is TOTALLY calling them out. I mean to the point where he all but calls anyone who believes the Earth is 6,000 years old an idiot. Over and over again, he practically talks directly to them, telling them they're wrong.

There were also quite a few moments where he discusses how people in the past viewed the cosmos, and learned about it. He uses examples from all kinds of ancient cultures and religions, but not once, that I saw in the 4 or 5 episodes that we watched, did he say anything about Christians.

It was a bit surprising and totally refreshing to see him do it. Now I understand why they've got their knickers in a twist, and they absolutely deserve it.

[mehrrh]

25. banning cosmos?

Didn't I already hear that some schools are telling children and parents not to watch Cosmos?
Some OK students who were shown an episode and suffered "demonic possession."
Some Kansas Senators proposed a bill to ban the show.
Why didn't Carl Sagan see this kind of controversy? Fundamentalists have taken themselves and a significant portion of the general public giant steps backward.

[jberryhill]

29. "Why didn't Carl Sagan see this kind of controversy?"

He did.

They hated him too.

[arcane1]

46. Carl Sagan most definitely saw this kind of controversy.

The only real difference is his focus on nuclear war vs Tyson's focus on climate change.

[exboyfil]

55. He did get some flack about

evolution as well, but not nearly as much as Tyson. It is amazing how far the anti-science types have progressed in 30 years especially since the last 30 years have confirmed again and again descent with modifications as we have unlocked the genetic code and found numerous transitional fossils, evo-devo homeobox.

[arcane1]

70. Very good points!

[Diclotican]

63. mehrrh

mehrrh

I think it is because back int he days when Carl Sagan was doing his Cosmos - the fundies of the right - was on the extreme right - it was not yet a part of the mainstream conservative movement - and even then ( I have understood) the conservatives was rather livid by Carl Sagans Cosmos.... I for one was a fan of him - from the first time I saw Cosmos - and I think long before I was 10 had been reading most of his books - even the ones who was in the grown up section of the local library - something that always puzzled the ones who worked there because I would rather read this heavy books than reading Donald Duck...

Diclotican

[LongTomH]

75. Cosmos and "demonic possession?????"

Oh yeah, it's Oklahoma! Neil deGrasse Tyson's Cosmos Causes 27 Local School Children Demonic Possession. Ohhhhhh boy!!!!!

Saddlebridge, Oklahoma – School officials have declared a state of emergency after showing an episode of Cosmos early Friday morning.

....................//snip

One student, however, sat glued in front of the television cart set that displayed the show’s taping. While the teacher did not confirm his name, other parents report the child’s name is Damian Nikolai-Carpathia.

....................//snip

“When I entered the classroom to get the remaining student, I could not believe it. The paper’s photographer was with me and he snapped it. The student turned around and had a red glow to his eyes. A desk was levitating in the air! All the student said to us was ‘This is the Cosmos’.”

Student eerily turns to news photographer as the teacher’s desk levitates, Cosmos playing on the television even though the power to the classroom had been shut off.

Shhhh! It's a satire site, gang! Topeka News pulled your leg.....and it came off in their hands! Read the whole story; it's a hoot!!!! Check out the pic of the "Egyptian Ra Worship" symbols on Neil's vest!

[valerief]

86. Cosmos ran in 1980. Reagan didn't take office until 1981. After that, the

Jesus freaks blossomed.

[sybylla]

104. It also reran in 1981-82

I know because I was attending a local 2-yr college, got married in early 1982, and remember watching it in the student lounge on campus.

Cosmos was everywhere for a couple of years.

[libodem]

28. .

. [img][/img]

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

30. Neil deGrasse Tyson is my new hero.

[libodem]

32. He is one smart and articulate cookie

He has my sincere admiration!

[oldhippie]

37. Yep, he is one smart, credible dude ...

I must admit to having been, until recently, a bit of a skeptic when it came to human caused climate change. I try to keep an open mind, examine both sides of an issue, but tend to remain skeptical of a lot of things that have strong political agendas behind them. But hearing NDT talk about it, and having a great deal of confidence that he has researched things more than I can, the needle on my skepto-meter has swung over to the other side. If NGT really believes this, then his credibility wins me over to his side. That is a really big deal to me.

He is and deserves to be a hero to an enormous number of people.

[Duppers]

89. ....

http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus

[oldhippie]

100. But that is my point, I don't necessarily believe a consensus ...

... of what scientists say. I don't know all of their agendas. I know how data can be skewed to make it show what you want (I've done it plenty of times.) And I know that what was once scientific consensus can turn into debunked theory at any time.

What 97% of scientists say has much less credibility with me than what Neil deGrasse Tyson says. His words swing my opinion much more than others.

[Duppers]

107. but Dr. Tyson is a scientist, only a well-known one.

Having been married to a PhD scientist for 47yrs and knowing NASA climatologists, I take offense at your statements. Tyson is not a climatologist but is only repeating what he has learned from climatologists. And for you to suggest that these accredited, respected climatologists have been skewing their observations and data to mislead the public is offensive.

You know who has been skewing data? The few so-called scientists and their mouthpieces who prostitute themselves by taking money from the fossil fuel corporations. They are the ones who have misled the public for so many years!

And if what you stated in your post is true,
"I know how data can be skewed to make it show what you want (I've done it plenty of times.),"
then SHAME ON YOU!

[oldhippie]

137. You find my opinion offensive?

I find lots of things offensive also. Life's a beach.

[GeorgeGist]

125. Wow!

[oldhippie]

136. Thank you ....

... that was certainly elucidating.

Really, do you realize how worthless that was? Why even bother?

[Iggo]

161. And, Wow!

[zwyziec]

36. Missoula Flood is a well documented more recent glacier event.....where I now live.....

The Missoula flood created the Columbia River gorge and populated the Willamette Valley with top soil from Montana.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_Floods

[central scrutinizer]

98. And boulders from Montana are found hundreds of feet above the

floor of the Willamette Valley around Portland. They were trapped in icebergs that were stranded on the hillsides and later melted.

[JohnnyRingo]

39. Thanks for spoiling it. I have it on DVR.

I'm kidding, it's not Game Of Thrones. I am a few episodes behind however, and can't wait to see this one. I appreciate the preview.

I never heard of the flood of Sumeria, but wish I'd had that fact last week when I was in a discussion with a friend who takes bible stories literally.

I'm going to have to catch up on the series, but I don't want to miss a minute. I read Sagan's book twice and saw the PBS series back in the day, and am thrilled that McFarland has presented it to a new generation.

Unfortunately, I've had little success in getting my grandchildren to watch it. I think they're afraid I'm trying to trick them into learning something in their free time out of school. *sigh*

I wish public schools would make it required viewing in the classroom.

[nadinbrzezinski]

64. He did not quite go far enough

But it is a science program, not ancient history.

The sources for the Noah story are both the story of Gilgamesh, covered by Tyson (very well mind you) and the story of a local prince who survived a great flood of the Tigris on an ark (raft) full of chickens and goats on the way to market

For some odd reason the hero had his full family on board.

Add to this story an angry god and a 40 day flood, and a dove...silly me, forgot the dove. But that and Gilgamesh are the two parent stories

[silvershadow]

41. Not only did I see it, but I wrote down the guy's name…(Gilgemesh) (spelling?) for research. nt

[jtuck004]

48. Gilgamesh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh - just fyi

[silvershadow]

139. Ok Thank you. :D nt

[eShirl]

57. epic of Gilgamesh in cartoon :)

[FailureToCommunicate]

132. It was just Utnapishtim doing his civic duty...

[jtuck004]

43. I don't have a tv, so I didn't get to see it, but there is a class called "Heaven and Hell" taught

at (what used to be) Central State University in Edmond, OK. I took it perhaps 20 or 30 years ago, but I think it is still taught by the head of the dept.

It is an exploration of how we developed our ideas about heaven and hell, and one of the main texts is The Epic of Gilgamesh.

Absolutely amazing and historical class, and I think ought to be required, in the interests of full disclosure, before anyone is sent to a religious church or institution, so they have a foundation with which they can decide if they want to believe the myths.

[arcane1]

47. That sounds like a fascinating class!!

[jtuck004]

49. One of the few really good ones. n/t

[jtuck004]

81. Apparently he also has a class, "A Cultural History of Beer". I suspect that one

has better attendance and isn't even required.

[Egnever]

71. No one needs a tv these days

you can catch at least a few of the episodes here

http://www.cosmosontv.com/watch/256286787977

[jtuck004]

72. Thank you very much for the link. I will take advantage of it.

Mostly it's time. This is the time for garlic to really start growing, and I had a couple raised beds for other stuff I had to resurrect from their weed beds, so I haven't had much time to google around and find stuff since about when his saga started.

It's been somewhat entertaining to read about the reactions here, however. and a little disheartening.

[Egnever]

73. No problem

I envy your ability to grow things. My thumb is full of zombie juice or something. Whatever it is it isn't green.

[jtuck004]

78. It's just a learned skill. Put some things in the ground and learn about them, and don't

forget to water, gotta make it a schedule. I read organic gardening books from the 40s and 50s and just planted stuff I wanted to cook with. But the real secret to all the gardening is to never quit, and put enough in the ground that the successes out do the failures, because you will have both. And when you kill something off, just start again and go a little further next time. You will have your crop successes and failures, and you will learn as much by the ones that grew from the plants you threw away in your compost bin as the ones that did well in the garden

Some of the best plants in my garden right now in early spring are garlic bulbs that I forgot were there what are outpacing some of the certified ones I planted, and some kale that kind of died back in the winter and is now putting off seed heads (which are great sauteed with some young garlic shoots and mixed with scrambled eggs) like mad - neither one planted for that. It's amazing how much early free stuff there is in your garden if you don't clean it all out at the end of the season.

I didn't start doing it to garden. I started it as a place to think, but it got a little out of hand. Myles Horton, union organizer and civil rights activist in the 40-60's ran the Highlander School in North Carolina, one of the places that Rosa Parks studied.

When he wasn't working he was often in the garden. He saw what it took to disrupt what was there, seed something new and grow it, and I think he used that as a thinking laboratory for what he did with real people, so I thought it would be a good thing to learn how to do.

And it has been.

[Egnever]

82. Well I am sure I am not helped

By the fact I live in the desert


Interesting way for you to get started and thank you for the encouragement!

[jtuck004]

84. 5 gal buckets, shade, and a hose. You will grow better tomatoes

than I can with the heat. Also watermelon. 5 gal buckets (2-3 holes in the bottom for drainage) dry out quick, so you may need to water at least once a day, with a little shade, (I've seen them wilt and die in a day in sandy soil because it drains so fast). But if you lose them they just make compost for a few months down the road. If you don't have anything else that demands all your little attention, these are nice. And you don't have to let them outside to poop 2 or 3 times a day.

We left Oklahoma in the rear view mirror a few years back, too hot, but those are two vegetables that can't get the quality here that you can there - just not hot enough for long enough.

Yet. But things are changing.

[VanillaRhapsody]

53. I was told by a Jewish friend that the books of the Old Testament are not meant to be

taken literally....that these are just the myths told around campfires by their ancestors.....they find it quite funny that some Christians do not realize that it is not meant to be taken literal!

Even crazier than the Noah story is the story of Jonah....cannot wait until they make that movie and try to explain living in the belly of a whale for 3 days! Scientific no doubt I tells ya!

[Diclotican]

56. E-Z-B

E-Z-B

This is not exactly new - everyone who have basic understanding of history - know about the Sumerian legend - and that the bible have getting some of the stuff - from the ancient legends of Sumer - even some christians - who have studied the old legends of old - that be the ones who is in the bible - or the ancient sumer tales - have recognized the similarities about the two legends - about a wast flood who in their view swallowed the world - and where just a few ones survived - for again making sure the world was a just place to be....

In fact - some have pointed to a few places where in ancient times - where water have swallowed great places of land - When at the end of the last Ice age - between what was the Meditarian - and what would become the Black Sea - when the landmass between the two broke up - and a lot of water was coming true - to what become the black sea - some says - it could be one of the places where the ancient history of a great flood - who drowned "the world" - and where some of the history who become the great legends of Sumer - or in the bible can have it roots into - after all it was in historic times - and for the ones who experienced it - it must have been horrifying to put it blunt - maybe all what they had was going down in under the water.

It could also be because of a great flood in the great rivers who have been there since ancient times - the Sumerian Empires - and also most of the other ancient empires of the middle east - was growing up between Eurfrat and Tigris - two of the most important rivers in the world history I would say, as it was the birth place of lot of our culture, our traditions - and not to say some of our first great breakthroughs - like grain - and the possibility to put om paper words who could reach down generations - all the way back to our times, where the ancient writings still puzzles the experts...

What Creationist would say about it - well they have their ideas already - and I doubt even DeGrasse Tyson would be able to make them think different - if anything they will possible double down on what they already know - and not budge when it come to what the rest of the world sees as "fact" - based on historic experience....

On a side note - I would say - the bible, at least the Old testament is a book written by a people who was right out of the bronze age - the knowledge about the world was rather limited - and possible also very frightening - today we can explain most of it by natural cases - but this people we are talking about now do not had that knowledge - and had to explain it by other means - and they also had to explain how the world started - and would end - and that we, humans, specially his chosen people had to respect his authorities - or do the consequences of it.. Some parts of the bible, also reach into ancient history - mostly because it is commenting about greater powers - and explain how the Old Israel could survive squished in between the big powers - Egypt and Sumer - and then Babylonia and so one..... Of course - it is from the eye of the old jewish people - who had the misfortune of being attached and displaced many times over the ancient world - even today small renemats of that displacement - live in country's like Egypt, Iran, Iraq and so one - who have lived there since at least 3000 BC.... Or less....



Diclotican

[smallcat88]

60. Every ancient culture has a flood story

Most of them predate the bible story. A lot of archeologists today are also starting to question the accepted establishment history that our ancestors were all hunter/gatherers just 10-12 thousand years ago. Too many ancient ruins around the world (a lot of them now under the ocean) that just don't fit that narrative. A logical theory? The end of the last ice age!
During the ice age a lot of land mass now under water would have been open to building cities, towns, etc. Massive flooding due to the end of the ice age could have easily shaken the very foundation of any civilizations around at the time. It would also have thrown a lot of survivors back to a hunter/gatherer stage. And yes, it could have caused flooding around the globe. It's just a theory; but it's a theory that fits the facts. Too many ancient ruins, the building of which would have been well beyond the abilities of stone age people, have been quantum dated as far back as 27,000 years, or more.
Even a lot of scientists still resist the idea, fundamentalism isn't just for religion. But as studies produce more proof, more and more scientists will come around. That's the difference. You can't convince religious fundamentalists, it's not about facts or proof for them.
Thinking for themselves just isn't in their repertoire.

[E-Z-B]

62. I heard that the melting of the ice may account for the legends of Atlantis. The rising waters

slowly claimed that civilization. Humans migrated and had to start over.

[Prophet 451]

129. Atlantis was a myth

Plato himself said that he was describing a hypothetical society.

Now, he could have been basing it on then-current stories of a island swallowed up by the waves. That would make complete sense and would explain some historical oddities (such as the Piri Reis map).

[nadinbrzezinski]

67. Of course the explanation

Last edited Mon May 19, 2014, 07:03 PM - Edit history (1)

Is far simpler. All cultures set themselves around rivers. Rivers do flood from time to time. 500 year floods, in Mexico for example, have caused what would be termed a great flood since it took over one third of the southern plain, for example flooding all of the state of Tabasco it seems.

Before the internet and modern communications and all that, this unusual event will be called a great flood.

With climate change though, what I just described, is no longer a 500 year event, but it seems a 10 year event or less

[napkinz]

61. ...

https://www.facebook.com/Mediamatters

[Louisiana1976]

79. +1 million

[valerief]

91. + another million

[Duppers]

168. + another Million

[SheilaT]

65. The study of geology got its start

by people who hoped to prove the actual existence of Noah's flood.

It's all covered in a wonderful book, Rocks Don't Lie by David R. Montgomery.

That search for the ancient flood led, step by step, to our current understanding of our planet. I recommend it highly.

Oh, and among the things that he discusses are exactly how much water it would take to literally cover the entire surface of the earth, and how there simply isn't that much water possible on the planet, or if there were, where would it go afterwards?

For people who have no clue how large the world actually is, a major flood in their river valley would seem like the whole world is underwater. It's just that now we know better. And those who try to cling to some stupid literal interpretation of the Bible are idiots.

[napkinz]

66. for those climate change deniers

[napkinz]

68. :)

https://www.facebook.com/AtheistsForObama2012

[vkkv]

77. I thought it was the creation of the Black Sea when the mediterranean rose after the ice age melt

I thought it was the creation of the Black Sea when the Mediterranean rose after the ice age melt and the Sea of Mar Mar broke through the isthmus between Istanbul and Turkey In Asia.

Close to Mt Sinai and there is evidence of buildings at the bottom of the Black Sea along with geological evidence that water had rushed in quickly through the isthmus.

[muriel_volestrangler]

121. Mount Sinai is in the Sinai penninsula, between the Red Sea and modern-day Israel

A completely different location to the Sea of Marmara, which is about 1500km NNW of Mount Sinai.

[AverageJoe90]

80. Didn't see it, but it sounds good.

I, myself, have suspected for a long time, that the "Great Flood", if it did indeed happen, had occurred as a regional event in what is now Iraq & Kuwait(Southern Iraq, btw, was where Abraham was born, if I'm not mistaken.).

[valerief]

85. I saw it, too, and loved it. I wish the series wouldn't end. Tyson is so engaging.

This Cosmos has all the trappings: great visuals, great scoring, and, best of all, the truth!

Maybe MacFarlane will come up with another science series. Peter Griffin could host it. That way, some of the teabagging types might actually pay attention, since it'd be one of their own (IQ-wise) as host.

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. Please tell me he said it was a legend, and not that it 'occurred'

There's no evidence that any 'great flood' occurred anywhere that is specifically tied to any myth. Floods in general happen; people with an average imagination can therefore conceive of a really big one.

[whistler162]

105. Sorry but there maybe....

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/evidence-suggests-biblical-great-flood-noahs-time-happened/story?id=17884533

But that shouldn't take away from your deeply held religious beliefs.

[muriel_volestrangler]

120. That 'controversial theory' doesn't actually have decent evidence for it

First of all, note that it's in a different place from the OP - the Black Sea, not Sumeria. It's also from thousands of years earlier; rather than the myth being something based on a Sumerian event (when - 2500 BC? That would be about 2000 years before written down for the bible, or perhaps 800 years before it was written down in Babylonian), this was meant to be about 5000 BC - so you're adding another 2500 years for the legend to survive, despite another change in location.

"It probably was a bad day," Ballard said. "At some magic moment, it broke through".

That's not evidence - it's supposition. "He does think he may find evidence" - ie he hasn't found evidence yet. What he has found is that sea level rose, not that it was a sudden flood.

Many people have looked at this, but there isn't any evidence for catastrophic flooding: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_hypothesis . At some stage, the level of the Black Sea rose; but there's evidence for fresh water flowing out of the Black Sea through this period.

Also:

Alas, on the expedition’s return in 2003, the blocks of daub turned out to be chunks of local stone, and the polished stone artifacts turned out to be wood – wood, moreover, that gave radiocarbon dates of no more than 200 years. This was looking less and less like an actual site, but Ballard was not yet prepared to let it go: “Further sampling of Site 82 is clearly necessary to confirm its archaeological nature.” In 2007, however, a formal publication of Ballard’s Black Sea shipwrecks offhandedly dismissed Site 82 as “now considered to represent a geological rather than an archaeological feature.” So much for Site 82. And, since that was his only Black Sea habitation site, so much for his Noachian Atlantis.

But in a recent lecture, Ballard claimed the discovery of another submerged site – not in the Black Sea, but across the Bosporus in the Aegean, off Anzac Beach, and therefore nothing to do with the hypothetical Black Sea deluge. While searching (successfully) for a Great War wreck, he spotted a circular feature “45 metres across with some sort of structure in the middle…probably a site of human habitation 9000 years ago…a Neolithic site, one of the oldest now discovered.” His slides show something that looks remarkably geological to me, possibly a ring dyke or similar feature; at any rate, nothing that justifies Ballard’s blithe claim of a groundbreakingly early Neolithic site on the bed of the Aegean Sea. This does not increase my confidence in Ballard’s archaeological pronouncements.

http://www.skepticink.com/lateraltruth/2012/12/19/robert-ballard-goes-out-of-his-depth/

My "deeply held religious beliefs" on this are that no-one has found any evidence to tie a specific event to the origin of the myth. I'd point out that the myth also include the flood receding; this would point to the author having in mind a 'normal' flood which does go away after some time, not a rise in sea level that remained for hundreds or thousands of years.

[obxhead]

88. I can't wait to see the season.

I've been recording them with the DVR and just ignoring them. When the season concludes I'll take a lazy hot Sunday and watch every episode in the cool of the basement.

Looking forward to that chilled out day in the dead of summer already.

[valerief]

90. So far, Hiding in the Light has been my favorite episode, although I've enjoyed them all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiding_in_the_Light

I've learned so much. I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks!

[Hekate]

95. He did it beautifully. I know those stories, and have taught them...

Dr Tyson is a poet at heart, he truly is.

[klook]

96. Missed it last night

but will watch tonight on NG. Thanks for the reminder.

This is an outstanding series. The "Seven Sisters" episode was particularly excellent. Among other things, Tyson always points out the contributions of women scientists.

[napkinz]

101. ...

[Duppers]

108. am so stealing that.

[YOHABLO]

106. But it's in the Bible!! It's the the word of God!! We must believe believe believe believe

[backscatter712]

147. Clap louder, Christians!

[Strelnikov_]

109. Ancient Crash, Epic Wave

Ancient Crash, Epic Wave
By Sandra Blakeslee
November 14, 2006

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/science/14WAVE.html?ex=1321160400&en=35b395ffd080eb47&ei=5090
. . .

Most astronomers doubt that any large comets or asteroids have crashed into the Earth in the last 10,000 years. But the self-described “band of misfits” that make up the two-year-old Holocene Impact Working Group say that astronomers simply have not known how or where to look for evidence of such impacts along the world’s shorelines and in the deep ocean.

Scientists in the working group say the evidence for such impacts during the last 10,000 years, known as the Holocene epoch, is strong enough to overturn current estimates of how often the Earth suffers a violent impact on the order of a 10-megaton explosion. Instead of once in 500,000 to one million years, as astronomers now calculate, catastrophic impacts could happen every 1,000 years.

The researchers, who formed the working group after finding one another through an international conference, are based in the United States, Australia, Russia, France and Ireland. They are established experts in geology, geophysics, geomorphology, tsunamis, tree rings, soil science and archaeology, including the structural analysis of myth. Their efforts are just getting under way, but they will present some of their work at the American Geophysical Union meeting in December in San Francisco.

. . .

Dr. Masse analyzed 175 flood myths from around the world, and tried to relate them to known and accurately dated natural events like solar eclipses and volcanic eruptions. Among other evidence, he said, 14 flood myths specifically mention a full solar eclipse, which could have been the one that occurred in May 2807 B.C. Half the myths talk of a torrential downpour, Dr. Masse said. A third talk of a tsunami. Worldwide they describe hurricane force winds and darkness during the storm. All of these could come from a mega-tsunami.

[Strelnikov_]

110. Did a Comet Cause the Great Flood?

http://discovermagazine.com/2007/nov/did-a-comet-cause-the-great-flood

[nadinbrzezinski]

142. Not to be trouble

But here is the problem with this date...

May 2807 B.C

The Bible was written in the seventh century BCE. And the parent stories of the Noah story are much older than that. They are anywhere from tenth to twelfth century BCE.

It might explain the Popol Vuh though, which was written much later than the Bible. The Maya were in the early pre-classic and Have a coast.

[cilla4progress]

112. We love it, too!

I'm one week behind.

What I learned from last week is how random and magnificent our time - that of homo sapiens - is in the space and time of the universe. A tweak here, a bump from an asteriod there...I understand now how the perspective of eternity works to make my daily problems appear so small as to be inconsequential.

Still need to incorporate it into my attitude.

Thanks.

[truedelphi]

114. Archeologists and anthropologists believe that the entire Adam and Eve

Tale is a re-tell from Sumerian legends as well, and perhaps dates back a full three to five thousand years before it gets put together by some Jewish tale spinner, and appears in what we call "Genesis."

[nadinbrzezinski]

115. Damn they did not enforce copy right back then

but wait, that was common domain by then.

[truedelphi]

116. You might enjoy how empowered the feminine is in this "different" telling of

The genesis myth:

http://www.astradome.com/adam&eve_myth.htm

####In her published resource, "The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets"
Barbara G Waler qualifies her information with many reproductions of works of art.
The original Eve had no spouse except the serpent, a living phallus she created for her own sexual pleasure. Some ancient people regarded the Goddess and her serpent as their first parents. Sacred icons showed the Goddess giving life to a man, while her serpent coiled around the apple tree behind her. Deliberate misinterpretation of such icons produced ideas for revised creation myths like the one in Genesis. Some Jewish traditions of the first century B.C., however, identified Jehovah with the serpent deity who accompanied the Mother in her garden. Sometimes she was Eve, sometimes her name was given as Nahemah, Naama, or Namrael, who gave birth to Adam without the help of any male, even the serpent.

Because Jehovah arrogantly pretended to be the sole Creator, Eve was obliged to punish him according to Gnostic scriptures (although it does not say how). Although the Mother of All Living existed before everything, the God forgot she had made him and had given him some of her creative power. "He was even ignorant of his own Mother . . . It was because he was foolish and ignorant of his Mother that he said, "I am God, there is none beside me." Gnostic texts often show the creator reprimanded and punished for his arrogance by a feminine power greater and older than himself.

The secret of God's "Name of power," the Tetragrammaton, was that three-quarters of it invoked not God - but Eve. YHWH, yod-he-vau-he, came from the Hebrew root HWH, meaning both "life" and "woman" - in Latin letters, E-V-E. With the addition of an "I" (yod), it amounted to the Goddess's invocation of her name as the Word of creation, a common idea in Egypt and other ancient lands.

[merrily]

118. People, thousands of years ago, trying to make sense of what happens to them and their

forefathers. Watch "The Gods Must Be Crazy." (Hurry, before your cable company slows it down.)

[Prophet 451]

130. Can't wait for it to be shown here

"Here" is the UK and it's not being shown yet. Can't see it on Hulu either since you have to be a member of Hulu+.

And my faith is not bothered by the series in the slightest.

[JoePhilly]

131. Cosmos is slowly turning the tables on the Creationists.

The approach Creationists use to attack science and evolution is to try and find questions that science does not yet answer, and then they point to those gaps and declare "ah ha!, there is a God!".

Cosmos is not only putting together a well constructed story about how things came to be the way they are, its also taking some well known religious myths and explaining them. By doing so, it opens questions about Creationism that the Creationists can't answer.

The existence of flood myths that precede the story of Noah creates a dilemma for the Creationists. If they claim there were many floods, that hurts the Creationist theory. If they claim all of these civilizations are talking about the same flood, then that calls the Creationist's time line into question.

Past that, when Creationists claim the Grand Canyon is evidence of the great flood (rather than erosion that took 100s of millions of years), it begs the question, why is there only ONE Grand Canyon. If the great flood covered the earth, and created the Grand Canyon in a relatively short time period (less than 6000 years), then there should be other formations like the Grand Canyon. But there are not.

The game of pointing out "gaps" in scientific knowledge and in evolution can be turned right back around. Creationism doesn't really explain anything at all.

Comos doesn't have to attack Creationism directly. It simply needs to allow the obvious questions and gaps in Creationism to come forward.

[Bucky]

134. That man has a kind of Cool-Hand Luke quality to him

They try to keep him in a box overnight, but he just keeps on coming at ya and trying to hug some sense into the mean and ignorant people of the world.

[dawg]

135. I think Neil is wrong about that one.

I believe the Noah story (and it's various predecessors) is based either on the flooding of the Black Sea or the flooding of the Persian Gulf.

Both regions would have been likely locations for large early settlements. Both basins flooded as a result of rising ocean levels breaching a natural dam. The rising waters would have rapidly flooded nation-sized areas of formerly desirable land. It would have been water as far as the eye could see.

The Tigris and Euphrates flood all the time. Not worth the creation of a legend that would endure for thousands of years.

[nadinbrzezinski]

141. Alas there is agreement as to what Neil covered among experts.

The second source is a story of a Prince that that was carried out to sea in an ark (raft)

[dawg]

144. That means very little. People tend to localize myths and legends ...

that have been handed down for centuries. Noah is a Hebrew localization of a much earlier story. The Sumerian version is bound to be the oldest version we have record of, because there is no earlier system of writing. But that certainly isn't proof that the story originated in that version.

India has it's own version of the story where Manu tethers his ship to a high mountain. The Hebrew localization also mentions a mountain. There are no mountains in the Mesopotamian flood plain (although they spent thousands of man-hours building artificial ones).

For what it's worth, no one knows the true origin of the Sumerian people. They spoke an isolated non-Semitic language, and may have carried the flood story along with them from their place of origin, wherever that might have been.

[nadinbrzezinski]

145. What do they have in common? RIVERS

they all have had a local flood at one time or another.

This is Mexico, just LAST year



I will include Katrina...



Rivers do that. So when rivers do that, people write stories about it. Major floods will be transmitted down. The point is, what Neil DeGresse Tyson said, there is pretty much agreement on it. He did not, in any shape, or form, go out the reservation.

I am betting that people will talk of the two floods I just showed you the same way people still talk of the Great 1927 flood.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mississippi_Flood_of_1927

Think of that this way, when you have a critical event that affects tens of thousands of people, it will go into song and story telling. I am actually shocked not to have seen that happen with Katrina. That is how stories are born.

[dawg]

146. I still think it's more likely that the flood stories were inspired by something much larger ...

that an ordinary river flood, even a big one. People who live near rivers understand flooding. Why tell a story about one that happened hundreds of years ago when a pretty bad one had probably taken place within the storyteller's lifetime?

There are common elements in the various flood myths, from the Levant all the way to places East of India. The stories are linked, which should not be the case if they were all different stories about different rivers flooding.

River floods do not create a situation where there is no land visible for miles and miles and birds cannot find a place to land (a common element of the story).

We know for a fact that the Black Sea flooded in rapid fashion when sea-level breached the small strip of land that was holding back the Mediterranean.

We know for a fact that a similar thing happened to the huge river valley that became the Persian Gulf.

I just think it's a little soon to just assume that the localized Sumerian version of the story is the origin of the thing just because they were the first people with the technology to write it down.

[nadinbrzezinski]

148. But experts do not agree

we are talking of a MAJOR flood, that lasted for months for water to recede for the Noah story, that took a Prince out to sea on his ark, where he and his family where trapped to the whims of the sea for over a month, and landed on a distant land.

Add to that Gilgamesh, mix well with an angry god, and a dove, never forget the dove, and walla.

Large floods usually take only a week or two.

I think mostly historians got it right on this one.

And I do believe people do write stories and legends of things that kill a lot of people. We still sing ring around the rosy, it is a childhood rhyme. It's origin is the black death. It's been over a millenia

[dawg]

150. I still disagree.

Even if the origin of the flood myth turned out to be an epic river flood, Sumeria is a very unlikely place for it to have originated. Mountains figure prominently in almost every version of the tale. Manu's ship was tethered in the Himalayas. Noah, of course, landed on Mr. Ararat. Even Utnapishtim landed on a mountain (somewhere in the Zagros, if I remember correctly).

Wherever this story originated, people carried it far and wide. It doesn't seem specific to Southern Iraq at all. In fact, much of it seems out of place there, even in the Sumerian version of the tale.

I think the story goes back deep into the Neolithic, and was handed down for hundreds or even thousands of years before the Sumerians eventually got around to writing down their version of it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

151. And we have no evidence that something like that happened in the Neolithic

and I tend to go by evidence. And 10,000 years is a LONG time.

I tend to go by evidence, that is the way I roll.

So we will agree to disagree.

Oh and I forgot to say this, the planet does not have enough water to flood the whole world. And where does it go after that? Even the most dramatic climate change maps, do not cover the whole planet

[dawg]

152. I enjoy thinking and arguing about things like this.

Sorry to be such a hard head. Here's a picture of something from 10,000 years ago. I blame the people who made this, or their contemporaries somewhere else in the world, for the flood myths.

[nadinbrzezinski]

154. Yeah, we are taking bronze age

and none is saying there were no cultures. Greek myths speak of giants before proper greeks came to be. We now know that is Mycenae.

There is still not enough water in the world to cover land masses as described in flood stories when you take them the same way you take a Biblical story. That is a fact, a scientific fact.

All myths have a grain of truth in them... like Troy did exist. But a global flood is not one of them. A localized flood is, on the other hand. And all cultures have had them.

[dawg]

158. Without a doubt, there was no global flood.

Just isn't enough water for that. (Thank God)

The picture I posted was of the ruined temples of Gobekli Tepe in modern-day Turkey. It is the most ancient example of monumental architecture that has yet been found. It's full of carvings of animals and anthropomorphic figures. It took the coordinated efforts of many, many people to build, and yet it has been dated all the way back to the Neolithic.

After hundreds of years of use, it was eventually abandoned and purposefully buried around the 8th millennium BC - four thousand years before the early stages of the Mesopotamian civilizations.

Nothing remains of those years but myths, legends, and a few surviving artifacts. They had no written language to leave us records of their legends, stories, and deeds. And yet, the people were, in many ways, just like us. They lived in villages, and even towns with populations in the hundreds. There were priests, and tradesmen, and politicians. There were extensive trade networks that spread goods and ideas all over Western Asia.

The people lived and died, and their little kingdoms rose and fell, and all has been forgotten except for perhaps a few whispers that have lived on in our legends and stories.

We didn't just jump from being cavemen to building nation-states like Egypt and Sumer. A lot of things happened along the way, most of which we will never know. But it is very likely that these people contributed many things to the civilizations that eventually arose among their descendants.

[nadinbrzezinski]

159. and we know that from Mycenae

another example of a culture that predates the Greeks.

The reason why both Egypt and Sumer are considered mother civilizations is because there is a line of continuity to them from us. (to the constant harping of Greeks by the way, who want to be included in the list, since they are well, Greeks)

Just like in the New World the link to the Olmecs is the mother civilization in North America.

Now if we find stories and writing, that will change. But these pre writing cultures are a bridge to the caves... they are the earliest settlements, but the earliest settlements that are not connected to us. They might be. For all I know Summer arose from their descendants, which is what happened with Teotihuancan in the New World. There is a direct link to the Olmecs.

But that is why as of now these cultures are not considered mother cultures. They are mother cultures to the mother cultures, likely, but that is speculation. We have no evidence of this actually, (And a graduate thesis or two could be written there)

[judy]

140. The other thing I loved about last night's Cosmos

Is that he didn't shy away from saying it: Iraq is at the origin of our civilization.

I sure hope GWB was watching, and realized how horrific was his hinting that the Iraq war was really a war of civilizations. The good one, (ours) born out of belief in Christian principles (except of course the ones that Jesus actually talked about), and the bad one, (Iraq) the savages, who plainly deserve to be shocked and awed.

Just to think about it makes me

Thank you Neil for setting the record straight on all of this. Sometimes I think that I might be the crazy one...
The funny part, is that while I am not a religious person, when you listen to Neil you begin to feel the presence of something greater than all of us, and that seems to have the purpose of spreading life around...

[E-Z-B]

143. I think I remember Fundamentalists rejoicing about the war in Iraq. The destruction of Babylon

was foretold in the Book of Revelations.

[napkinz]

149. Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Miles O’Brien slam CNN as the ‘Wal-Mart of journalism’

Media Matters for America

May 19, 2014

In a discussion with former CNN science journalist Miles O’Brien, Neil deGrasse Tyson criticized CNN for presenting a false balance when it comes to climate change:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/19/neil-degrasse-tyson-and-miles-obrien-slam-cnn-as-the-wal-mart-of-journalism/

https://www.facebook.com/Mediamatters/photos/a.10150313151781167.336053.26595441166/10152086138571167/?type=1&theater

[Duppers]

167. +100

[MisterP]

162. and here's a deeper discussion on Mesopotamian ties to their neighbors, yea and nay

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panbabylonism

it's a very fin-de-siècle thing to do, its making of overtight connections between cultural parallels gave us Nordicism and Ancient Astronauts, too

[d_r]

169. I just watched it

and it would make some heads EXPLODE.