Angry Graduate Wrote This Letter To His University. It's Hard Not To Agree With Him.

[kpete]

Last edited Mon May 19, 2014, 11:19 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.tickld.com/funny/t/815753

[TheSarcastinator]

1. pathetic

An education is not a guarantee of employment. It never has been and never will be. He made the decision to attend, he made the decision to stay in school, and now he thinks he is entitled to whine like a disappointed child that he didn't move directly from graduation to the 1%.

I have no sympathy for this dipwad. He doesn't have to give any money to his former school but neither is he entitled to having his opinion held apart from scrutiny and criticism.

[reformist2]

2. disgusting

[DonCoquixote]

3. really sir

I love how this statement leaps over some realities, like the fact that now, a college degree is not the things that gets you into the 1 percent, but the bare bare minimum to avoid being the bottom one percent. Of course, he should have done some Horatio Alger myth where he swept streets and then worked his way up to manager, save for the fact that Horatio Alger tales are myth.

[TheSarcastinator]

11. your position only holds if you buy the marketing nonsense

that the only way to succeed in this nation is by purchasing a college education. Yes, you may trot out the tired old statistic about the chance to earn a higher wage, but that is nothing more than a CHANCE....and as with everything: caveat emptor, sucker and your own mileage may vary.

And yes, the Alger myth is just that but so is the idea that you can only be successful with a college education. Your idea that college is necessary to keep you out of poverty is completely inaccurate and based in nothing but anxiety for the future -- what college recruiters call the "fear funnel" (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/08/for-profit-college-recruiters-documents_n_820337.html).

Education is for one thing and one thing only: THE OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN. Education is not a guarantee of employment or even a guarantee of learning -- it is a guarantee of the OPPORTUNITY only. You can go to college and remain ignorant; you can go to college and remain unemployed. Anyone who believes that receiving a degree entitles them to a specific job at a specific wage is making the same mistake that is made when men purchase a sports car to be more attractive to young girls or that you can lose weight by taking a single pill and not exercising or changing your diet. It is marketing, nothing more, and it is helping to create an entire generation of young people who are in extended debt because they bought into it. Always read the small print.

[A Simple Game]

20. And a college degree is also a requirement for many jobs. But you knew that didn't you? n/t

[passiveporcupine]

89. Not just many jobs, but most jobs that pay enough to

pay rent, or a mortgage and a car loan, and maybe...just maybe get married and have a family. And even then, you don't start out making a lot, but it gets you in the door so you can move up to a legitimate job and wage. A wage you can live on.

Or, it was supposed to work that way.

Or you can go without the education and start your own business. Oh wait, isn't it something like eight out of ten businesses fail?

According to Bloomberg, 8 out of 10 entrepreneurs who start businesses fail within the first 18 months. A whopping 80% crash and burn.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ericwagner/2013/09/12/five-reasons-8-out-of-10-businesses-fail/

[rhett o rick]

113. I think your assumption that those that start businesses dont have college degrees

is faulty.

[rhett o rick]

114. Not in this market. Many jobs available today look at college degrees as "over qualified".

But you knew that, right?

[baldguy]

151. And I think we have just found the first on many Catch-22s that exist in today's economy.

[A Simple Game]

153. Of course some jobs would not want someone with a degree.

Mainly because they know the person would leave as soon as a better job offer came along.

I don't think this thread was talking about McJobs though, try for an engineering job without a degree sometime.

[Maedhros]

24. Oh, you so very much belong on the ignore list.

Your views are ugly.

[valerief]

63. +1 gazillion

[chervilant]

88. Yeppers,

I just updated mine.

[truedelphi]

135. That is my thought to. I love ignore for

Those whose arrogance causes my blood pressure to soar.

[marble falls]

142. 123 posts, this troll might be gone before you get him on ignore.

[NealK]

184. Still here but I'm not surprised.

Right wing trolls can last a long time here, the place is filled with them. But I guess that it's good for traffic and therefore income for the admins.

[Tom Ripley]

192. ^^^THIS^^^

[billhicks76]

139. Lighten Up

There are agreements assumed in a civil society. Using your logic it would behoove him to accept that it's survival of the fittest but in the jungle murder and cannibalism are part of the animal kingdom. You aren't ok with that I assume.

[fasttense]

144. So exactly who is feeding us all these myths?

The Myth that education will allow you to succeed in the job market. The myth that you can pull yourself up by your own bootstraps with hard work and determination.

You know who makes money off those myths? Why it's the richest 1%. They buy up the student loans and then get legacy scholarships and don't even have to pay tuition. They play their games and cons with the stocks and our homes and made out like bandits when our government bailed them out. But the average guy need not worry, because he can pull himself up by his own bootstraps. He doesn't need any help like the bankers and uber rich with their tax give aways do. He can just work himself out of the poverty the 1% has created.

But because one guy calls out his college for feeding everyone these myths that the 1% make big bucks off of, you think it's all because he made some bad decisions. Yeah that's the ticket. Make money off feeding everyone these myths then turn around and blame them for acting on them. It's a win-win -for the richest 1%. And people like you who blame the victims are feeding into the exact same myths.

[magical thyme]

7. specious.

The University brochures about the health care program I completed 3 years ago claimed 100% employment for their graduates. (Admittedly they did not state employment at *what* but certainly given the brochure, they were implying employment in the field for which we will train you.)

Government career statistics supported that claim, predicting 14% annual growth over the coming years.

The reality, which began to show up in our final year of training, was that the work was now mostly automated so they need fewer people. And increasingly the work was becoming simple card tests similar to a home pregnancy test. The handwriting was on the wall, but by then we were in to deep to be able to walk away.

And the final reality fully understood at our graduation "celebration" (which had all the joy of a funeral) was that hospitals and labs were downsizing, both actively and by attrition. And half the class couldn't even get job interviews, let alone offers. And the words from the program director's boss were "Just hang in there for 5 years!!!! You should SEEE the numbers!!!!!!!!!!!" Yeah, well, in 5 years some of us would have lost our homes 5 years earlier. And the training itself would be worthless.

Half the class probably ended up forced to go back to the crap jobs and crap pay they worked so effing hard to escape.

I'm one of the lucky few who got a part time/per diem job. 3 years later, I'm still very part time. I was forced to go back to the crap job I'd been trying to escape, and now at an even crappier salary then when I left. If it weren't for the income based student loan repayment program, I'd be in the street.

When I was young, my mother most certainly did inculcate into both my sisters and I that a college degree was a ticket to a *good* job.

As did the high school I attended.

My father was the *only* person in my life who discouraged my sisters and I from getting college education. Not because he didn't believe it was the ticket to a *good* job, but because he didn't believe women should work outside the home and felt educating us would be waste because we would just get married, have babies and do housework, which was "women's work."

[TheSarcastinator]

13. sorry, I'm not your Dad

and you shouldn't attempt to smear with with your father's misogyny. Education is for the OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN, it does not provide any thing else. Period. People who engage in higher education as a guarantee for employment haven't thought it through.

And on edit: do you believe anything anyone tells you? I can give you a "100% employment guarantee" too if you want it!

[magical thyme]

18. I'm not sorry you're not my dad. And your claim, which you have not backed up with any supportive

evidence, continues to be specious.

My statement about my father was not a smear of anybody or anything. It was a simple fact: he was the only person in my life who tried to discourage my sisters and me from higher education. It just happened not to be for the reason you are claiming, but rather the opposite.

Again: My parents generation had reason to believe that an advanced education helped get a good job, and gave advice based on their direct experience.

Furthermore, I witnessed my neighbors, all with advanced education, who included a Shell Oil xecutive, a Chilton Publishing executive, a Nasa scientist, and obstetrician, a dentist, and a lawyer.

And, again, our high school advisors encouraged advanced education.

And in my recent case, government statistics suggested a growing workforce in the field.

Also, welcome to ignore. I'm not wasting another minutes time on somebody who makes wild claims without any supporting evidence.

[TheSarcastinator]

22. I'm proud to be on your ignore list: you made sure to smear me personally

by comparing me to a misogynistic family member -- the textbook definition of ad hominem.

Give that letter another read and pay careful attention at how this fellow describes the faculty he worked with. Do you really believe that this was a young man who give his education 110%? I do not, not for a moment.

I'm glad you got high value out of your education. You aren't really listening to what my reaction is; you are instead filling in your own perception around it. Again: the primary role of higher education is not and never should be job training and placement. That is not what education is. While it may be a POSSIBLE advantage to engaging in higher education, it is not and never should be considered the primary goal or value. Those that do are largely (not all) wasting their money.

[AdHocSolver]

66. So what do YOU consider the primary goal of "higher" education?

In addition, discuss in your response the 20+ times increase in cost of "higher" education in the past 40 to 50 years.

[MADem]

130. I like your arguments very much.

Well done, you--applause, applause, applause!

I think that fellow likes to stir the pot. The name is a clue!

[enki23]

56. Fucking bullshit. Poor people can't take that huge financial risk for an "opportunity to learn".

And if only the children of the wealthy get to have "opportunities to learn" then we are fucked. Either way, we have excellent cause for complaint. And to fucking hell with your deeply stupid opinion.

[sulphurdunn]

101. Yes, it is just

an opportunity to learn, and it shouldn't provide anything else. Who needs anything else? After college you can take a walking tour of Europe before settling into the family business or using your Ivy League fraternity connections to secure a position worthy of your station in life.

[Jamastiene]

156. Sounds to me like the person was saying their dad had different reasons.

That is NOT smearing you, but pointing out the father's misogyny. You obviously did not master reading comprehension.

[wordpix]

31. as a cancer patient, I get absurdly high bills so I assumed your biz is booming

Yale New Haven Hosp. just sent an itemized bill showing provider charge of $40K for ONE round of conventional chemo with drugs developed in the 1950's; the allowed amount is $24,000, also absurdly high. ONE round is one infusion and I need 12, which would cost $1/2 MILLION if anyone paid the provider charge (no one does, so why send bills like this?). Still, 12 rounds at the allowed amt. comes to $1/4 million. This includes admin. costs which consists of a nurse, pharmacist and appt. scheduler for about 2 hr. of work/round.

The real cost according to an NIH link that includes the exact chemo I'm getting is $3400/round (2012 figure), including admin. + drugs.

So I'm surprised your health care biz isn't booming.

Sorry you cannot find a job in this field but there are SOME people making million$ for doing absolutely nothing.

[jeff47]

8. Apparently, someone needs to send you to school for reading comprehension. (nt)

[pnwmom]

26. He thinks he is entitled to question the value of his very expensive education --

and to resent the request of his alma mater for even more money -- and he IS.

What is your problem?

Only a dipwad would imply that wanting SOME JOB after earning a masters degree is equivalent to wanting to move "directly from graduation to the 1%."

[tenderfoot]

33. Sarcastinator: having nothing of value to contribute

[Jerry442]

34. I went to college in the early 70's.

Tuition was affordable. Some financial aid was available. I worked part-time. I graduated with minimal debt and without putting a big burden on my parents and I got an offer for a great job before I even graduated.

Although I didn't know it at the time, figuratively speaking, I was living in a tropical paradise. Today's students might as well be living in Antarctica.

Before you jump on your soapbox and start haranguing the kids today that you had the same problems they did and you dealt with them fairly easily-- no, you didn't.

[kelliekat44]

54. Amen to that. I graduated in the late 60's. B.S. in Chemistry. $2400.00 in debt to Uncle Sam

from a national defense student loan (folks thought education was in the best interest of national defense). My rent off campus was $7.00/week in a home where the couple were eager to help kids get through school. I worked at Johns Hopkins on the week-ends earning $17/week-end. It seemed that back then most people were not trying to screw over everyone else and people loved to help each other. The Viet Nam War had taken its toll on many of classmates who were ROTC graduates. I worked at jobs for salaries ranging from $4,000/year to 5,000/year until I was able to get a job in my field (one year later). It was around 1977 when things started to go to hell in a hand basket by the time Regan got elected on the notion that Americans should not "sacrifice" for anything and that greed was good. It's been down hill ever since with a slight respite when Clinton/Gore was elected. Their motto for governance was "Putting people first." Lots of good changes were made with government during that time, better service in SS, much improved and responsive FEMA, and the noble notions of helping more people realize the American Dream of owning a home......so The money folks didn't really like the ideas of a lot people being able to own a home but the loved the idea of making the money associated with fast track mortgages. They knew they could help you get into a home but damn if they would help you stay in it. You know the rest of the story. The late 60's to early 70's were nothing like what is going on out there now. Our kids are screwed and no matter what the President tries to do to ameliorate the problem, the GOP will stand in the way...they never saw pain and suffering that they didn't like to increase.

[eridani]

138. Very similar to my story. Same debt as you. You forgot the part about 2% interest on NDEA loans

If you taught in certain school districts, the loan was partially forgiven. Payment was postponed if you went to grad school. Which I did, living in married student housing for $55/month. The $6000 TA and RA grants covered that, tuition and books pretty well. I had occasional periods of unemployment, but mostly well paid jobs, my last one for 18 years with a defined benefits pension.

I am absolutely appalled at what my nephews are going through.

[Skittles]

44. you really, really don't get it, do you?

I don't know whether to be disgusted or envious

[jtuck004]

47. If it is so above money, how can they put a price on it. If it's so instrinsically fucking excellent

it should be provided to our citizens at no charge, else there would be such a negative connotation for the loss we are suffering that we couldn't stand it.

The comments from this post engage in hyperbole and weak shit-throwing to undermine the letter, and fail to make any meaningful point. The grads letter shows a far better understanding of the situation and the nuances around it.

I will be making sure that I won't need to take the time to read your reply, if any, since it will likely be more of the same uninformed ranting. And since you must be a storehouse of intrinsically valuable knowledge, I bet you can figure out why.

Good luck.

(btw, I think the handle "TheUninformedinator is available. It would be more accurate)

[hunter]

55. What have you got to sell me, TheSarcastinator?

Nothing, I'll bet.

And there are legions of us, dropouts from the U.S. American consumer society by either circumstance or choice.

I'd say this student is criticizing the wrong people, however, except that too many colleges and universities were just as quick to participate in the student financing bubble as lenders and developers were in the housing bubble.

We all ought to all be working to throw off the oligarchy that runs this sorry nation.

If we wait until they run the place into the ground, increasing numbers of people will suffer.

Honestly, we ought to nationalize student debt, forgive most of it, and control inflation by taxing the uber-wealthy class out of existence, knocking people like the Koch Brothers, Mitt Romney, and yes, even Bill Gates down to simple very comfortable "wealthy status" but not so wealthy that they can buy our government and manipulate its regulatory agencies.

Yep, I'm that kind of radical. Our government ought to be working for us, "We the People," not a few thousand of the wealthiest people this planet has ever known.

[TrollBuster9090]

71. "An education is not a guarantee of employment. It never has been and never will be."

Correct. So, how come every politician, university professor, and college career counsellor he ever listened to probably told him exactly the opposite? That's really what this is all about.

Education 'inflation' is no different than any other economic bubble. The TECH bubble, the stock market mortgage-backed securities bubble, etc. In every case, regular people are fleeced by professionals in the field who are willing to take advantage of the naive layman. I'm a college instructor, and I love my profession, but hate the fact that there are so many politicians and higher education professionals that are selling higher education as a panacea to cure unemployment and a bad economy. It's a lie. Sure, it's a lie that keeps me employed; but we can't exactly blame the victim.

[Brigid]

75. Excuse me, Mr. (or Ms.) Sarcastinator:

But this person worked his butt off to get a college degree; put up with arrogant profs, all-night cram sessions, and all the rest; in return is treated like a space alien by employers -- and to top it it off his alma mater has the nerve to send him a fancy fundraising letter? And you wonder why he's pissed?

[merrily]

123. It probably was not his first fundraising letter, email or call, either.

And people in long term unemployment are stressed beyond belief.

You'd think more people on an allegedly left board would get that.

Oh, and it was a letter that he sent for free. He was not asking for money. He did not hit anyone. He vented and he made some great points. I'm sure it wasn't the first time the recipient of his letter heard those points, either.

God forbid anyone expect schools to participate in solving the problems outlined in the letter.

[DeSwiss]

78. :-|

[AllTooEasy]

83. I agree %110

What's his/her major? Public Policy? What schoool? Unless you have a Public Policy Graduate degree from a handfull of elite schools like Georgetown, Harvard, UC Berkley, etc., you're asking people "Do you want fries with that?" during your next job.

...and if he/she went to an elite school, then they must be a terrible interviewer, graduated at the bottom of their class, have a lousy work ethic, or resistant to relocating.

There's more to this story(if it's even true) then what's told in that letter.

[Springslips]

86. One point against one point for.

You built a strawman, he didn't say he was entitled to be in the one percent. Don't put words in people's mouth.

And please note that you have to have a degree these day to have any kind if decent job.

You are right that people should go to college for knowledge not for a job.

Much of what he is saying is stuff that progressives should get behind.

[mike_c]

87. I'm a career educator and academic, and I largely agree....

You're getting a lot of push back on this because it's an uncomfortable truth, and let's face it, you didn't sugar coat it much. Ahem. But I completely agree with the assertion that what students pay for is an opportunity to study under the direction of a college's faculty. Period. What they make of that opportunity varies wildly. After that, it's time for due diligence and realistic expectations. Four years of university education doesn't make most students into top notch scholars or other professionals, not even close. If employers require college degrees from their job applicants, the reverse is not guaranteed in any way, i.e. there is no assurance that obtaining a degree will get you anything more than whatever personal satisfaction the experience brings (hopefully, a lot), some academic skills that provide a foundation for lifelong learning and intellectual growth, and the opportunity to list your degree on your resume or CV, which might get you past one human resources dept filter. Or it might not.

I teach life sciences courses in a biology program at one of the largest public universities in the U.S. Very few of our graduates find work in their discipline at anything other than temporary, seasonal, or uninspiring entry level jobs without significant additional post baccalaureate training-- grad school, teacher's training, etc. Most bachelor's degrees in the sciences gain graduates access to the professional equivalent of carrying heavy things for a living-- data collection, seasonal field work, feeding samples into instruments, lab or med tech work, and washing up afterwards. The pay is poor and the jobs are often temporary. Very few of our incoming students have realistic expectations about this-- they too often think that four years of occasional study will turn them into senior scientists with six figure incomes. It won't. For those who work really hard, it provides additional opportunities to enroll in further study, like grad school.

I'm a product of that higher education system, too. I graduated with a life time of student loan debt that I will NEVER be able to repay before I retire (I'm close to retirement, and nowhere near close to repayment). I STILL spend hours each day studying-- staying current in my field, and learning new things. At nearly sixty, I've achieved the professional life that many of our incoming students think they'll find waiting for them at graduation in four or five years. It takes a lifetime of work, and undergraduate and graduate degrees only get you an opportunity to fill out job applications, along with everyone else. Anyone who pursues higher ed for reasons other than personal intellectual growth is probably going to experience some disappointment.

[trekbiker]

172. mike_c

I have to come down on your side of this, Sarcastinator as well.

Sorry but the world just isnt fair. Its very competitive out there and you have to be strategic and smart about things. The letter writer has reason to be angry..... at himself for his unrealistic expectations and/or poor decisions.

I just looked up the tuition and fees of the two colleges I attended in my (successful) pursuit of an Electrical Engineering degree. The first was a JC (American River College in Sacramento CA) and the second a middle tier state college (CSUS). I spent two years at each plus one summer school. The costs have gone up dramatically since I attended these schools in the early 1980's but not nearly as high as the figures I hear all the time on the radio, etc. And you know what, if I was the young highly motivated man I once was I could do it all over again, even at todays costs. No problem. I worked part time and by the time I earned my degree I had no student debt but I did owe my Dad about $2,000 that I incurred in my last year (paid it off with interest in the first 4 months of my career). My accomodations during college were literally a storage room and a sleeping bag. I sold everything I owned except for a beat up crappy car (toyota Corolla that got great mileage and never broke down). I worked part time low paid jobs on weekends (IMO full time is impossible when taking full engineering course load). It was not easy but looking at the actual tuition/fees rates of today I am certain it could be done again.

I landed in San Francisco in 1985 driving my cheap Toyota on its last legs and literally the shirt on my back (and a REAL cheap suit). Also a piece of paper, a BSEE. For the next 15 years I lived like a college student, invested and saved and worked my ass off. For the second half of my career I let off the gas pedal somewhat but still have a hard time wasting money and time like so many I know.

Today, I retire in one year at age 56. I am NOT a 1%'er. more like a 5%'er.

life is good....

[jollyreaper2112]

90. Pathetic?

Hardly. Man's entitled to speak his piece, same as you're entitled to make yourself out as an idiot here and I'm entitled to call you on it.

[SwankyXomb]

92. You might want to try the new Discussionist site

This sort of ... comment would fit in better over there.

[merrily]

110. We love it when our new neighbors visit.

[imthevicar]

145. Well the Name od this thread is

I got Mine screw you Mr. Dipwad. pathetic? yes, your comment is.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

159. He is entitled to his opinion, though.

Maybe not from "scrutiny and criticism," but it works both ways.

I congratulate him on his opinion. I guess it's a wash, eh?

[nadinbrzezinski]

171. I am not bothering with you

A record by the way, welcome to ignore

[lumberjack_jeff]

187. 18 year old kids aren't equipped to sort out the truth from bullshit.

They've been told by every teacher they met that "going to college" was the only satisfactory life outcome.

I have sympathy for him to the extent that he was force-fed bullshit for so long.

When my middle son was in high school, his overachieving best friend was a year older than him. Hyper smart this kid is. After graduating from HS, he enrolled in UofW and graduated with a degree in electrical engineering.

My son, on the other hand was an academic screwup. Suspensions, expulsions, discipline... you name it. He went to all of the high schools in a 20 mile radius and eventually graduated from the local alternative school. He eventually straightened out and enrolled in community college. The small tuition and large investment of tools he paid for with grants. He graduated from the diesel tech AA program and now works for a truck shop near Seattle. He makes decent if not spectacular money.

The friend still hangs out at my son's apartment and worries about his future because he cannot find work and doesn't know how he's going to repay a nearly six-figure student loan debt.

All problems are math problems, but teachers don't give students the formula or the numbers to plug into it.

[lumberjack_jeff]

4. Righteous. n/t

[kpete]

5. TheSarcastinator

so "Whining" is an entitlement now?

???-WTF???

but peace to you anyway,
kp

[misterhighwasted]

6. On the other hand...He read the glossy colored brochure back in high school & bought the sales pitch

He believed he would have a far better shot at a better than average future with this College & that's exactly what he did. He believed the glossy ad brochure that convinced him his future depended on a degree at their college & he believed them when they said that it was THEIR College that could offer him the best path to a sound & solid future.
Bet he read the grad percentages who, through THEIR College were now successfully employed. (They never list the percentages of their grads who are living back home with family two years after completing their degree.

I don't read this as an argument of his degree nor chosen field, but more so the cost & their request for donation.
I'd be a bit miffed also.
The glossy brochures created a larger expectation than the reality proved, and a daunting pricetag.

[magical thyme]

9. the brochure for the healthcare program I attended didn't state "successfully" employed

Just 100% employment. Government statistics backed it up.

So, yeah, I'd be willing to bet everybody in my class ended up employed. Just not in the field we worked our asses off to train for.

I did my homework and did not expect to get rich. But given the (fake) salary range quoted to me and, 2 years later to a classmate, I expected to make a decent living, pay off my student loans and possibly even be able to start saving again.

[TheSarcastinator]

15. marketing should never be taken as truth

"Employment Guarantee" or not, the rule is always caveat emptor. Results vary: you may not achieve the same as the people quoted in this ad.

[Orrex]

25. Most of all it's important to blame the victim

So what if a school and industry misrepresents itself and charges its victims tens of thousands of dollars of semi-worthless and all-but-inescapable debt?

Shame on the 17-year old for failing to anticipate global economic conditions decades before they occur!
Shame on the 17-year old's family for failing to have the funds or experience to advise the minor on the intricacies of amortization!
And the 22-year-old mooch had better damn well be setting aside $1000/month for retirement, or else fuck 'em!

[jeff47]

67. ^^^ This ^^^ (nt)

[AdHocSolver]

57. If more people were thoughtful consumers, our economy would collapse.

Our economic system depends on people believing the hype about overpriced, poor-quality goods and services.

If a majority of the population investigated their purchases more carefully, many companies would shrink or go out of business, and many colleges would have to close their doors.

[valerief]

73. When people stop spending their money on one thing, they spend it on another.

Well, except for the hoarding, offshore tax-havening, hedge fund-loving 1%.

[AngryAmish]

77. If one has an inflamed appendix, and the doctor says she can get it out

Under your reasoning you are a sucker and deserve what you get if she paints your toenails instead.

Professionals are held to higher standards than say flea market snake oil salesmen. The point of accreditation is to professionalize higher ed.

I always thought that much of higher ed was simple grifting. Seeing your comments, now I know.

[merrily]

116. Marketing by adults in schools to 16 and 17 year old should not be deceptive.

But a guarantee is not merely marketing. Especially if it causes you to put money on the line.

You can look that up.

[taotzu]

148. I Definitely See Your Point

I as a recent graduate from high school in 1976 wanted to travel the world but came from a poor household. My father was a truck driver and my mother was a maid and they struggled to make things seem as though we wanted for nothing which we didn't. I knew that they could not afford to send me to college or afford my travel aspirations. I had always been taught to work for whatever I wanted and make my own money. After graduation I decided to enlist in the Navy because they would send me around the world and also pay me to do it. I enlisted for four years thinking that I would get out after my first enlistment but decided that it would become my first career being that after a twenty-year enlistment I would be able to retire when I was thirty-seven and still be young enough to have another career and have the money to afford an education. After retiring from the Navy I was able to acquire a scholarship from the Microsoft Corp. that paid for my computer engineering degree and then was hired at a private university as a Network Analyst where I presently reside and am ten years away from my second retirement. Too often young Americans are taught not to take ownership of their own lives and this I attribute to their parents who require nothing from them. They have been given everything and asked to do nothing in return. I have instilled this same ethic in my own children and both have no degree of higher education but have jobs that they love and afford them the lifestyle that they do not need to be in debt. I see the students come this university and they have Mercedes, Volvo's, and BMW's cruising without a care in the world because they have none and probably won't since they are entitled and will never understand the need of ownership. Then I see the poorer students who are putting forth their best effort while working and taking care of their families who are being crushed by the debt of their degrees or by just giving up under the never ending pressure. It comes down to knowing there needs to be something done by the parents, students, and higher learning but it starts with the parents and how they teach their children when they are growing.

[catbyte]

17. Different experience at the university I work at.

For instance, 98% of the Radiation Therapy graduates WHO ARE SEEKING EMPLOYMENT are indeed employed in their chosen field, according to state certification statistics. These days, you really have to do your homework to see what areas job growth opportunities are in depending on your area. Here, health care--especially mid-level health care workers is really high.

[Orrex]

28. Doesn't always work, though

Jobs can evaporate between the first day of your freshman year and the day you receive your degree.

In the 90s, for instance, I knew a lot of computer science majors who learned upon graduation that the jobs they were all-but-promised had disappeared before they graduated. Thank god that the university still got its money!

[Vincardog]

46. I was one of the IT grads in '83. It took me a year to find my first gig and it was just the start

of 20 years chasing jobs skills and money. The jobs they were "promised" were already headed for the door by the '90's

[Orrex]

61. Well, that's kind of the point

Unless we're asserting that students should roll thousands of dollars worth of dice and hope that a job is waiting for them four years down the line, what the hell else might they do?

[Vincardog]

62. If I had it to do again, I would have been a welder.

[Orrex]

70. Similarly, I would have gone in to automotive repair

[xmas74]

119. I wish I'd learned HVAC.

I'm pretty sure I'd be making more money than I am now.

[jeff47]

109. 83 wasn't a good time to start that career.

93, OTOH, was fantastic.

[magical thyme]

29. Does that statistic mean that some percentage of the graduates did not seek employment in the field?

in which case, how does the state certification board know if any graduates didn't seek employment in the field? Or do they mean that 98% of people who take the boards end up employed in their field? Or do they mean that 98% of people who pass the boards end up employed in their field? Or do they mean that 98% of graduates pass the boards and end up employed in their field?

In Med Lab Tech, at least where I am, you often get employed first and board certified after the fact, so most of the people taking their boards are already employed. We have one year from the start of employment to take the board exams. The university recommends taking them within 3-6 months of graduation. I know of only one person who took them immediately. I know of one who waited until well past the year, until she was forced to. I took them at around 3 months after I was hired: enough time to rest, re-focus my study and have the money to pay for them.

[catbyte]

37. Yes, there were some graduates who decided not to seek employment yet--usually new mothers.

The stats we have are from both the state and by follow-up with the graduates themselves.

[magical thyme]

45. So did 98% of the students pass the boards, and 100% of those find employment?

Or did 100% pass the boards and 98% of those who passed find employment?
Or did some other percentage pass the boards, and 98% of those find employment?

In my class, 100% were seeking actively employment as of our "celebration." I think everybody had started looking during clinicals and well before our final exams. 50% of us had verbal offers. Of those, only 1 was full time in the field. 1 was temporary, as a phlebotomist with the Red Cross during their summer blood drive. The rest were per diem, usually 2 days/week. And half the class hadn't gotten a single job interview, even though at least some were looking all over the country.

Believe me, it was totally unexpected on all of our parts. One classmate and I knew it would be bad, but we had no idea it would be this bad. The frightened looking young woman sitting next to me turned and whispered, "they told us there was 100% employment. and these are all part time jobs."

When the director's boss started babbling about just "hang in there for 5 years," one middle-aged father very quietly said to him, "but I need a job NOW." I doubt he ever found anything in the field.

[catbyte]

150. I'm sorry--can I get back with you? I'm dealing with a seriously ill cat & can't reply now.

Thanks

[magical thyme]

164. awww no, healing vibes to the kitty

[merrily]

117. That's a lot to expect of a 16 year old. Please see Reply 116.

Besides, job markets can change within a couple of years. Jobs go overseas, technology replaces humans, etc.

We are talking about a lifetime of employment, not getting a job right out of school. And some schools do--and, in my opinion, should do--a great job of helping their kids who will be graduating and their alums find jobs, while others just cut them loose.

[RainDog]

10. wyrd

[dilby]

12. Should have gotten a degree in Engineering.

[Brigid]

72. Really? That is not what I've been hearing . . .

From people in the STEM fields right here on DU.

[reformist2]

82. You're right - wages for STEM jobs are dropping, being shipped overseas.

The only safe place to be, is to be born rich.

[freebrew]

149. +1...what you said.

[Jenoch]

14. While I do agree with the posts here

that condem this person for their sense of entitlement, he is not wrong about the outrageous increases in tuition rates at colleges and universities.

[KansDem]

41. "Sense of entitlement?"

How about "sense of expectation?" I, too, attended college and earned (bought) two graduate degrees. I was expecting to pursue my field of interest and knowledge and did teach adjunct a couple of years while sending out resumes to every opening I was remotely qualified for. I got a couple of interviews but no offers.

But many of us coming of age in the 1960s and 1970s were treated to constant messages about going to college to get that good job. I remember one PSA during the time where Abraham Lincoln is sitting in an unemployment office applying for a job. The job counselor asks him about his education and he replies humbly that he did a lot of reading. The counselor shakes his head and says, "You ain’t goin’ nowhere without that sheepskin!" (unfortunately, video is "private&quot

I never had a "sense of entitlement" but the smack of diminishing expectations took hold over a period of years. Now I have a crap-ass job that pays the bills and only hope my children don't experience the same fate.

Oh, and I have two very-expensive pieces of toilet paper.

[Art_from_Ark]

94. I remember that PSA with Lincoln

There was another one-- "Trying to get a good job without a college education is like trying to run a race in lead boots".

I certainly have no regrets about going to college-- although I must admit I'm lucky in that in-state tuition only cost me around $300/semester at the time. It's about 8-10 times that now, at the same school

[raccoon]

178. That's a big 10-4.

"But many of us coming of age in the 1960s and 1970s were treated to constant messages about going to college to get that good job. "

[Arugula Latte]

69. Yeah, I think these commenters are missing the forest for the trees.

If tuition were still in the hundreds of dollars instead of multi-tens of thousands, they might have a point. But charging $45,000 a year for an undergrad degree -- that's a fucking crime.

[Travis_0004]

79. Then he should have went to a different school.

He knew what the cost was.

[Arugula Latte]

80. One of those super cheap state universities we have so many of these days, huh?

Yeah, good luck with that.

[Trekologer]

91. Then you get an associates degree at a community college and transfer to finish your degree

[Arugula Latte]

103. Do you think it's fine for universities to charge $45,000 a year?

Or even $30,000?

Because even if you went for "only" two years and you didn't have wealthy parents you would still owe $60,000 to $90,000, which would translate into much, much more with interest. Do you think that's a healthy way to run a higher education system? Because you seem to place the fault with the students, not with the system.

[Trekologer]

106. You're citing costs for private schools

The costs for in-state tuition at state universities is quite a bit more reasonable, with the average being under $6,000.

And yes, I do place quite a bit of fault with the students. If you just have to go away to a private school and take a major without good job prospects, it is going to cost a pretty penny. Doubling down and going for a masters degree in a major that already doesn't have many job prospects isn't a smart decision.

Post high school education is important. But students need to be smarter about what type of education they seek.

[Arugula Latte]

108. Nope.

It costs $25,000 - $30,000 a year total (including tuition, but we all know there is a lot more than just tuition) just to attend the University of Oregon, our "inexpensive" public university here. That's for state residents. Out-of-staters pay $45,000 a year. For a fucking public university.

Just looked up UC Berkeley. My alma mater, once one of the few great universities affordable to the public, now costs $32,000+ a year. I paid in the hundreds of dollars per semester 30 years ago. Do you think it's okay that public college costs have gone up so exponentially?

Here's a link if you don't believe me:
http://admissions.berkeley.edu/costofattendance

[xmas74]

124. Calculator link to a local DII/second rate state university in my town.

http://www.ucmo.edu/costs/

I said the prospective student was 18, from a family of four and the family makes around $50,000 a year. I gave the student a 3.0 GPA and a 24 on his/her ACT. The calculator figured out how much the student would owe.

Housing is now required at the university. All freshmen and sophomores are now required to live in campus housing unless they are able to obtain waivers as either nontraditional students, living at home with their parents (within 30 miles of campus) or have a medical issue that cannot be addressed by campus housing. (The main example is that a student must have a handi-accessible room but all those rooms are already occupied by other needy students. )

A small state university is over $16,000 and that's before incidentals.

[xmas74]

122. I just logged on to my local state university's website

and the cost is about 17,000 a year for an incoming freshman.

[merrily]

125. Because the state also pays for the lavish spending by the school.

The Chancellor of UMass makes about a million a year in salary alone and salary is far from the biggest part of the compensation package. And the Chancellor is not the only one in the administration or faculty making a "comfortable" salary on the dime of taxpayers and kids.

Best case for tuition, fees and a room (for freshmen) is around $25K a year (after tax), which ain't nuthin to a 17 year old (or his or her parents). And that's before they buy a book or a pencil or a pair of sneakers. An out of state student has to spend more than an instate student, close to $40K. And this for something that this nation says is among its highest priorities. And, in a school subsidized with state and federal money. So, this alum has no right to get fed up with donation requests?

State schools don't accept everyone, either. And, like all colleges these days, they loves them some students from overseas, which leaves less room for kids who live in the US. (I have no idea why. Maybe there is some kind of federal money avaialble to the school for accepting foreign students?)

[xmas74]

129. I work on campus

There is a huge run of international students accepted every year. Our biggest groups are from India, China, Russia and Saudi Arabia. The tuition for the international students is nearly double of an out-of-state student. In a number of cases, the home government is actually matching funds not only for their tuition/room/board/fees but, in some cases, even for part time employment on campus. Many of the Saudi students are studying aviation on campus, which is the most expensive major, and all fees are covered by the Saudi government-all fees. The most common majors for the international students are aviation, business, finance and IT though some are interested in Safety, Construction Management and there has recently been more of a fight for Nursing.

My child already knows that she has to complete the A+ program here in Missouri. A+ will pay for two years of tuition at a community college. Once she completes her associates she can transfer in to the local university. By then she will be a junior and will not have to worry about the housing requirement, so she can live at home or find a cheaper roommate situation. I just hope that she doesn't major in a field where she has to fight for a slot.

[merrily]

131. I am not sure which point you are making.

I was not asking if the federal government paid tuition for foreign students. I was asking if the schools had some other incentives from our government to accept them. The meme we are hearing again and again is how "we" invest in their education and then send them back home to use their education there, and how silly that is on our part. So, if parents are paying every direct and indirect cost for foreign students, what is it that "we" are investing?

I am not familiar with the A+ program, but assume it's based on academic excellence. Not every kid is capable of that, no matter how hard they work in high school, yet most kids really need a college education to get anywhere. Also, sometimes illness and/or family or other problems erupt in high school, making it near impossible to work to capacity.

[xmas74]

132. Not so much making a point as stating a fact.

More slots are opened up for international students every year, at least at our local university. The reason is because the university makes nearly double the tuition on the international student compared to an out-of-state student. It doesn't matter how they receive their money, just that they receive it. The university is making thousands more for one international student that they would make for an in-state student. It makes sense on a monetary scale for the university to accept more international students. The local university even demands proof of financial support and proof of banking accounts showing how much will be available to the student during the school year. The international students at the local university all have wealthy parents paying for their degrees or, in some cases, their own governments, not ours. Either way, the international students are considered a more secure investment for the schools since all fees must be paid upfront before the year begins.

A+ in Missouri isn't all that hard to complete. It requires a 2.5 GPA, 90% attendance rate throughout all four years of high school and a total of 50 hours of volunteer work while in high school. In our local community a number of the students finish their volunteer work up during one summer school session. There might be some who will have a harder time completing the program but most students should be able to if they so choose.

[merrily]

133. Again, I did not ask about the foreign student's tuition or expenses.

When reply to a post of mine, I assume that their reply is replying to something in my post.

I believe UMass charges all out of state students the same, American or foreign.

[merrily]

120. Maybe you should have gone to a different school.

This is only the second time in 11 years of posting on message boards that I've corrected someone's grammar or usage; and I've seen thousands of mistakes.

[Damansarajaya]

16. I work in higher ed, and I think the writer has some valid points.

1. The main reason that college education costs have risen so much is because the states keep cutting their funding. In 1985 for instance, about 80 percent of the Univ. of Mass was paid for by Mass. Now it's dropped to 25 percent.

However, a lot of top-tier and second-tier wanna-be schools spend big bucks on "name" professors and putting up shiny new buildings, while giving most of the teaching in the freshman and sophomore years to adjuncts and grad students.

That is unjustified and a complete rip-off.

A lot of money is going to paper-work for federal funding compliance and general administration. That also is "fat" that could be easily cut.

2. Shifting costs from taxpayers to students through confiscatory loans ought to be criminal. We're not taxing the Koch Bros. so that some janitor's kid can rack up enough debt to buy a house. It's pure injustice.

3. Colleges should have to provide statistics on how many of their graduates get full-time work in a field related to their major within, say, five years of graduation. That's only fair.

[aggiesal]

42. This is our tax breaks at work. ...

When I graduated in 1984, I had $700 in student loans,
and the government paid for at least 80% through scholarships, pell grants, and state funds,
while the student was responsible for upto 20%.
Now the student is responsible for 80% while the government picks up the remaining 20%.
India, China and eastern Erropean countries are now subsidizing their students education
over the 80% threshold.

California's education system was the envy of the world, until Prop 13, Reagan and GWMcIdiot's
tax cuts have pretty much decimated it. California used to produce the best engineers in
aerospace & high tech. That's why companies set up offices in CA. Now their going after those
educated elsewhere.

We now live in a backwards society

[Damansarajaya]

43. Yup, that's the sad truth. +1 nt

[Jenoch]

84. You were lucky to get so much assistance paying your tuition.

I do not think your experience was represenative of most students at that time. I graduated not to long after you did. I payed for 100% of my college education and living expenses with the exception of one quarter (many colleges were not yet on the semester system) when my oldest brother could not come up with the cash for tuition.

My father had income that was too high for me, or my two older brothers, to qualify for any grants or aid or work-study jobs, but had a business setback and could not pay off those debts and pay for our college education at the same time.

[calimary]

175. Yep. All this lean 'n' mean stuff is just plain mean. AND stupid. AND short-sighted.

It takes money to make money. Penny-wise, POUND-FOOLISH!!!!!

You have to invest - as a public, as a state, in your infrastructure, and I don't mean only the roads and bridges! You have to invest in your PEOPLE. Your YOUNG PEOPLE who are going to age into the generation that will be running things when you die or get too old to matter much anymore. SHEESH.

This austerity shit is just that: SHIT. Austerity is an atrocity. It gets you NOWHERE in the future and it doesn't really help the bottom line that much at all. Not unless you're okay with the decline and pain and suffering and backsliding that WILL, guaranteed, come with it.

[merrily]

115. Boston University, Harvard and MIT own some of the most expensive real estate in

Boston and Cambridge, which themselves are among the most expensive real estate locations in the US. And not the real estate on which the schools themselves sit. Free housing for many.

And don't get me started on salaries.

But, sure, they'll call you a few times a year, every year until you croak, and ask for more money. Then again, there are probably worse things rich alums could do with their spare millions.

[truedelphi]

136. The points you make are most excellent.

However, I feel the need to also point out that the reason the states are cutting back on educational funding is because the states are broke.

For instance, California basically went belly up on account of the down tick and collapse in the housing market in 2005, followed by the economic collapse of 2008.

If we had a federal government and a Congress that cared, we would have had infusions of money to the hard hit states.

This is how the government once operated, with programs that continually offered opportunities for people in the middle class. It was rare for anyone from either party to say they did not want help for middle class Americans. For instance, back in the mid to late 1940's, when the president of the US and our Congress realized the housing market had not created enough new homes to accommodate the returning GI's from the European and Pacific theaters of war, then both the President and Congress worked on huge home loan programs to get people into housing. This created jobs, which created more jobs.

But these days our Predatory governmental "elected" Officials are mere pawns of the "persons" they really work for - that is Big Corporations, including Big Finance.

If I were ever able to talk to Pres. Obama face to face, I would pose this question: Just why was it that when governors of states whose budgets were underwater, when they sought help from Tim Geithner, they were adamantly told that any help from the Federal government would hurt the nation's monetary situation. He made that statement quite confidently to Governor Ahnold Schwartzennegger, back in the summer of 2010. Then over the next 13 months, the US Federal Government was able to come up with 255 billions of dollars for modernizing the military, and offering up weaponry systems to Israel and the UAE.

Apparently we always have money to modernize our military, but ou Treasury officials want to have nothing to do one of the more sensible activities out there - help the individual states keep their programs in place. (For every state program that remains up and running,t here is money saved, in terms of things the Federal government needs to do.)

Mr. Obama, back in 2010 and 2011, when you stated that for every one dollar in tax revenue raises upon the rich, you will cut two dollars from the Federal government's budget, I hope you think of reducing the military spending before you reduce the social safety net programs. (As explained above - those budgets are already "Cut back" due to severe personnel shortages at Social Service offices across the nation.) Our nation has a military whose strength in weaponry, cutting edge defense techniques and all other important gauges of military strength, surpasses the military strength of the next dozen nations put together.

We need to revise the predatory (and totally pro-military) style of thinking. I am convinced the only hope for the middle class is Ms Warren, who understand s how much importance should be placed in offering young people a chance to have a decent education.

[Damansarajaya]

19. One of my daughters got a MA in public policy,

and she got a good job in gov't immediately after graduating, and then went to a different state to live with her fiance and got a good job there too.

With the job market the way it is, one really deals themselves a bad hand if they're not willing to relocate to where the jobs are. I'm not blaming the victim; just making an observation about the way it works today.

Nevertheless, I mainly agree with the letter writer--let the rich people whose taxes were cut make up the shortfall in the university budget, not the ordinary families stretched to the limit.

[progressoid]

21. But did they have a winning football team?

That's important.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

23. No offense, but college degrees became worthless a while ago

Before this kid even entered college, I presume. Did he do any research?

[TheSarcastinator]

27. apparently no one does

They just buy the hype and are really, really upset when the marketing doesn't match reality.

And hey, this will really throw some of these angry posters: Obama agrees that college is not the best path for everyone:

http://chronicle.com/blogs/ticker/obama-questions-value-of-art-history-degrees/72073

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/01/30/remarks-president-opportunity-all-and-skills-americas-workers

"Together with a local high school, you started a youth apprenticeship program. So students spend four hours a day in the classroom, four hours on the shop floor; after two years they leave with both a high-school diploma and a technical certificate.

Then, you set up an adult apprenticeship program, so that folks can earn while they learn. You’re working with partners from the Wisconsin Regional Training Partnership, to Mayor Barrett’s manufacturing partnership, to more than 50 other employers big and small across the region in order to spot job openings months in advance and then design training programs specifically for the openings. You even helped set up a “schools to skills” program with a local business alliance to bring kids to factories and help inspire them to pursue careers in manufacturing.

And I just want to make a quick comment on that. A lot of parents, unfortunately, maybe when they saw a lot of manufacturing being offshored, told their kids you don't want to go into the trades, you don't want to go into manufacturing because you'll lose your job. Well, the problem is that what happened -- a lot of young people no longer see the trades and skilled manufacturing as a viable career. But I promise you, folks can make a lot more, potentially, with skilled manufacturing or the trades than they might with an art history degree. Now, nothing wrong with an art history degree -- I love art history. (Laughter.) So I don't want to get a bunch of emails from everybody. (Laughter.) I'm just saying you can make a really good living and have a great career without getting a four-year college education as long as you get the skills and the training that you need. (Applause.)"

[KansDem]

53. There needs to be a method for determining a college's placement success.

Statistics that give the number of students in a particular department/program, the number who graduate and the number of those graduates who got jobs with their degrees.

I remember once suggesting this to a professor as I worked on my PhD and he replied with, "Oh, well, higher ed is for personal enrichment." I didn't think much about it at the time but now realize he might have known that very few graduates from his department/program were finding jobs. I would wager to say if there was an impressive "graduate to immediate employment" ratio that he'd be touting that to students wondering about enrolling in his school.

I would have found such statistics to be very helpful in determining where I attended college.

[valerief]

74. If kids did research, the U.S. wouldn't have military troops. nt

[mythology]

190. Statistically speaking,

a college degree is actually pretty valuable. It's worth close to double what a high school diploma is worth and people who have a bachelor's degree have nearly half the likelihood of being unemployed.

Yes college is expensive, but there are ways to mitigate the costs. Saying that it's worthless is just factually inaccurate.

http://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm

[cbdo2007]

30. With that attitude it is no wonder he is still unemployed.

Imagine this guy in an interview...lol.

[mathematic]

36. Come on, HR loves applicants that can demonstrate "seething rage"

It's one of the top things they look along with a Masters in Useless Bullshit and stunning unprofessionalism.

[cbdo2007]

38. Exactly...he doesn't say he never had a job...so I'm guessing he got fired

for being a jerk to management.

[enki23]

58. For not showing the proper deference at all times to all of his betters?

We all do our fucking groveling at our interviews. Must we all do our fucking groveling all the time, in case some "management" somewhere may be watching?

[yawnmaster]

96. I've never groveled at an interview. Nor would I hire a groveler that I interview. eom

[enki23]

98. I've heard hyper-literal readers make the best hiring managers.

If you're unable to understand that an important part of groveling for a job is doing it while pretending not to grovel for a job, then... well, I imagine you've probably found your perfect niche.

[yawnmaster]

173. did you take a course in covert groveling? because you have acted a certain way in an interview...

why do you think the majority also act the same?

[llmart]

179. I have a 24-year old niece.....

that posts stuff on her facebook account that is viewable to everyone. She got fired from her first teaching assistant job because of the pictures of her getting drunk out of her mind every weekend and then was surprised that she can't get another teaching job now.

This is just one anecdote that's an incident in my personal family. As I've posted on other threads about the cost of a university education, I work at a state university and the levels of administration making well into the six figures to do next to nothing is criminal. On the other hand, being a liberal Democrat I have always been pro-union, but the bennies and perqs and salaries that the professors get because of their union contract also contributes to the cost of an education. Maybe other DU'ers could comment on how they feel about that.

[merrily]

111. Having a point about his alma mater means he must be angry in interviews?

[EEO]

32. One of the main reasons this country is rotting from the inside out

and in danger of becoming a third world country is that it refuses to invest in future generations. Students are simply seen as targets to make money off of and turn into debt slaves.

[CrispyQ]

50. The Everything-For-Profit model is killing everything. --nt

[Jasana]

52. I could not say it better. Welcome to DU :-) nt.

[Arugula Latte]

65. No money for state-funded universities, but plenty for the good ol' military-industrial complex...

U-S-A!

[marew]

162. Yup!

How does this not bother people?

Oh wait, corporations rule and profit is their only goal! Silly me!

[Arugula Latte]

163. It doesn't even seem to bother a lot of people on this thread, who are blaming students

for attending "expensive" colleges. What bullshit!

[Bee_stung]

85. If you care

about community - vote communist

if you care about society - vote socialist

if you care about capitulation (especially to desire of the 'individual' or the 1%) - vote... aw hell, you know.

Sounds kind of simple. Guess the devil's in the details, huh..

[Arugula Latte]

118. Uh huh. That really works in this two-corporate-party system.

Right.

[merrily]

126. What does work in this system? Things get worse and worse.* Where and when will it stop?

One definition of insanity is repeating the same behaviors again and again while expecting a different result.

*I am not talking about cultural issues, though there has been a lot of backsliding on Roe v. Wade as well.

[blkmusclmachine]

35. ,

,

[jtuck004]

39. Excellent letter! I have told OU to shove their fund rasing letters as well, more

than once.

They are, apparently, slow learners.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

40. I wonder if this individual's personalility comes through in job interviews, too

If so, I think I know why he/she is unemployed.

[merrily]

127. This letter tells us nothing about his behavior in job interviews, let alone

his entire personality.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

174. Tells me a lot...(nt)

[merrily]

185. Only if you jump to unwarranted conclusions. We don't even know if this letter is real.

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

186. True...(nt)

[laundry_queen]

182. It tells you shit

I've gotten every job I've ever interviewed for because I'm excellent at interviewing (it's all about selling yourself) and I'm personable IRL. I'm really good at anticipating questions that may be asked, so I'm prepared. Interviewing is like second nature to me - I actually enjoy the process (probably because I have this narcissistic need to talk about myself ). At one job I beat out 100 other applicants, because of my interviewing skills (that's what I was told anyway by my boss).

I'm also a total asshole online (sometimes, lol). One online post is meaningless and has zero bearing on how one conducts themselves in an interview. I had a couple online posts go 'viral' back in the 90's before that was even an internet term...those posts sure as heck mean nothing about how I interview or conduct myself IRL. Especially posts I may have made when I'm angry about something. It's just not relevant.

[merrily]

128. As soon as I read it, I was tempted to go to snopes.

However, I decided that it does not matter if anyone actually sent the letter.

It raises issues that should be ventilated. And, I bet some college presidents will be receiving it in the mail or reading it online.

ETA: scratch the subject line. I was acutally tempted to go to snopes before I finished reading the letter.

[Trust Buster]

49. I think today's students are getting screwed.

The cost of college has quadrupled in the last 30 years. There is no justification for that !!!!! Also, millions of jobs have been outsourced overseas. Management jobs in manufacturing, IT, accounting and many other white color jobs are being filled by lower paid foreign workers. Young students are preached to from all social fronts about the value of higher education. So, they go into debt to fulfill what society expects from them just to graduate and find that job opportunities are very scarce in our new bold global world. That's not whining. Where I come from, that's called a FACT !!!!!

[reformist2]

95. Thank You - a subversive little song about all this!

[xocet]

51. It looks like the original may have been posted on Craigslist back in February of 2010....

It also looks like it has a few RW ideas embedded in it - (economics) "... but not for our government which is now owned by China.", (elites) "...we got to sit in classrooms and listen to Professor God up at the front of the lecture hall...", etc. It goes on to characterize a professor who purportedly studied "at MIT" as an "arrogant bastard". Only the RW has that much disdain for intellectuals.

Beyond that, the likely original version has been edited. The part about "to pay for their kid to get drunk and/or raped at your school" was changed.

Dear University Alumni Office

Dear University Alumni Office,

I'm sorry to hear that the university's $750 million endowment has fallen in value to $500 million because of the recession and because your bank died. I'm also sorry to hear that you're dealing with declining enrollment due to the fact that middle-class families are no longer willing or able to bet their homes on a $45,000-a-year higher education for their children. I really am.

So, what I want to know is, why are you wasting money on glossy fundraising brochures full of meaningless synonyms for the word "Excellence"? And, why are you sending them to ME? Yes, I know that I got a master's degree at your fine institution, but that master's degree hasn't done jack shit for me since I got it! I have been unemployed for the past TWO YEARS and I am now a professional resume-submitter, sending out dozens of resumes a month to employers, and the degree I received in your hallowed halls is at the TOP OF IT and it doesn't do a fucking thing.

...

For example, since 1987, higher education expenses have gone up 450 percent, while personal income in this country has gone up 87 percent, making tuition IMPOSSIBLE to afford without special financing. But, during this time, you were thriving because people could come up with the cash in two ways:

1. Get a home equity loan and use the inflated value of their house to pay for their kid to get drunk and/or raped at your school and then lose the house when the market crashed.
2. Get a federal loan.

...

http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sea/1619190174.html

Unfortunately, the piece is a somewhat lame attempt at humor that is only a little better than watching "The Five" on Fox.

The real issue is why we as a society do not provide university education to all for free. That expense could easily be rationalized as an investment in our own society's future well-being.

[zentrum]

59. The reason the Canadian

....middle class has surpassed our middle class in wealth, education, and health is because if you are willing to earn admission academically, you get a free higher education. Their students graduate without debt and they have single payer health care.

You do realize that we didn't gain very much by having the Revolution against England--don't you? England, Canada and Australia have more upward mobility, better indices on every measure of middle class health, and functioning trade unions.

They aren't perfect--but they have more actual democracy as a lived experience on a daily basis than we do.

Vermont, one of our more enlightened states actually considered joining Canada during the Revolution, in part, as I understand it, because Canada had no slaves.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

107. Uhh... Wha?

I work in Canada and most everyone here complains about their student loans as much as anyone in the US.

[zentrum]

147. Really?

That's not what I've heard. I'm referring to the Canadian public universities of course. We have public universities too--but actually they are getting more and more expensive and out of reach for the very people they were intended for.

Are you saying that Canadian students are graduating from public universities with $20,000 debt? Or from private universities owing $50,000? I find that hard to believe given that the higher tax rate in Canada is designed specifically to pay for education and health for the general masses. But I'm happy to learn more.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

167. Yeah, Canadians graduate from university drowning in debt too

After three years of post-secondary schooling in Nova Scotia, Verge graduated in 2008 with about $25,000 of debt — just about the national average. More than five years later, she has only managed to pay back about $2,000.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/average-student-debt-difficult-to-pay-off-delays-life-milestones-1.2534974

[laundry_queen]

183. While true

we do, overall, pay less than Americans do. I pay about $7000/yr in tuition (I take spring courses too, and that's not including books). That's a far cry from some of the private universities in the US that charge $25,000/yr in tuition. Here's a link I found that shows tuitions across Canada:

http://www.aucc.ca/canadian-universities/facts-and-stats/tuition-fees-by-university/

For the most part, in Canada, if you work full time during the summer, and live at home, you can graduate with far less debt than an American who does the same thing can.

[zentrum]

191. Always happy to be....

...educated, so thanks for the check. But I think until 2010 the situation in higher education was quite different. That was the year it started to change.

Also, "Complaining" is not the same as amount owed. US students are in such severe debt, it derails their life trajectory.

Also--just as laundry_queen says below, there's debt but nothing like USA levels.

It's a piece of why the Canadian middle class is still intact.

But, I guess the real leader here is Germany which really does offer free higher education. At least, so far.

[Renew Deal]

60. What university?

And who is this "alumnus"

[TrollBuster9090]

64. I'm A College Instructor. Every Year, I Have About A Dozen Former Students Ask Me For A

letter of recommendation for graduate school. Many of them have finished our undergraduate degree program, found themselves unable to get a job, and, not knowing what else to do, decide to apply to Graduate School. (Or, as Jerry Seinfeld called it 'the Snooze Button' on the alarm clock of life.) They've bought into the idea that the reason they're unemployed is because they obviously don't have ENOUGH higher education.

I tell them that I'd be happy to write them a letter of recommendation for graduate school, but also tell them that an advanced degree will only LESSEN their employment prospects, just like it did for me. I explain the whole bit about how, in my opinion, they're better off just continuing to look for an entry level job, and once in it they'll find it easier to move up, either in the same company, or laterally between various companies. But if they just continue to accumulate credentials, people will be less likely to hire them for an entry level position; and nobody will consider them for an ADVANCED position (requiring the graduate degree) without experience. So, you just put yourself into a Catch-22 situation.

They usually apply for grad school anyway, but they always tell me that they're surprised to hear this, and that nobody in the higher education field has ever told them anything like this before. That's the real crime, here. The fact that those of us that are employed in the higher education field are continuing to sell young people this lie, just to maintain our OWN positions.

[Trekologer]

105. That's what one of my professors told me

Getting a masters in the field right after undergraduate is just going to price one out of getting a job. If you really think you need masters, get a couple years real of work experience first.

[reformist2]

166. That's really not good advice either, as more and more corporations require higher degrees.

In many fields nowadays, if you don't have a masters degree, you can pretty much forget about moving up the ladder - except if daddy owns the company.

[TrollBuster9090]

169. Yes, they do require more advanced degrees for upper level management positions. But what I said

was that nobody will hire you for an ENTRY level position with a master's degree, and they won't hire you for an upper level position without experience, regardless of whether you've got the advanced degree or not. So, you put yourself into a catch-22 position by getting an advanced degree to start with. The way to get around that is to get hired for an entry level position, work for awhile, and then get a master's degree afterwards. There is a separate higher education industry developing around the idea of finding ways to give mid-career people an advanced degree WHILE they're working.

A good example is someplace like Western Governor's University in Utah. There are lots of other examples. Most universities now offer various forms of graduate degrees that you can work towards on weekends and summer 'vacations.' Mainly because there are lots of companies that will like a person, want to promote them, and then say "Well, I wish I could give you that job, but it calls for a master's degree." That's what used to happen, often, until the mid-level executives that would offer people those jobs realized that the master's degree was just a formality, and it was better to find some way to get the person they WANT to promote a masters degree than it was to go on a head-hunter search for a new person.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

168. That has to depend on the field

My girlfriend feels doing her masters in economics served her career well, although she mostly did it out of boredom while she was working.

[TrollBuster9090]

170. Yes. That's the key. (I should have mentioned that in my original comment.)

I did mention it in response to somebody else (see the above comment). It IS an advantage to get an advanced degree once you've gained significant work experience. It's mainly a disadvantage to do a bachelor's degree, and then move directly to an advanced degree when you can't find any employment, and assume an advanced degree will help you get hired.

[lumberjack_jeff]

188. +1 n/t

[valerief]

68. They can't offshore plumber jobs.

Remember when kids were told they could be anything they wanted if they just worked hard enough and studied hard enough? Bwahahahaha! I wonder if that shit is still being shoveled.

[KansDem]

176. "Do What You Love, The Money Will Follow"

What a load of horseshit!!

[valerief]

177. I remember in the 90s when I noticed normal people reading self-help books.

How they could not see them as happy-talk horseshit, I'll never know.

[Helen Borg]

76. I'd have to know more...

There are a ton of students who go to Uni expecting knowledge to magically enter their brain just by being on campus and not really engaging. The extent to which this happens becomes apparent when you actually supervise a student who is passionate about learning. I would need to know in detail how much effort this person put into taking advantage of the opportunity the University years provided.

[Taitertots]

81. Unemployed? Complain to the corporations that ruined the economy.

Complaining about a University just sounds like this:
"Wah wah wah, the system the elevates the quality of life of millions of people didn't result in immediate employment in the field of my choosing"

[rupertps8or28]

93. The writer of the letter makes some good points, though he is a bit abrasive.

A college degree really isn't worth a damn in this country anymore these days. It took me a full 2 years to get a well-paying job after I graduated from university. Meanwhile, I have many friends who are still in college after 6 years or so, struggling to get by, and up to their noses in debt. Hard times.

[uppityperson]

102. I am impressed, did not know you could write like this.

[davidthegnome]

97. I understand the anger.

I've gone into my own circumstances a few times here at DU, so I won't go into great detail about my college experience - but suffice it to say that higher education is simply not affordable, or even logical for the vast majority of us.

My family lives in Northern Maine - and as long as that's the case, I don't really plan on living elsewhere. The problem, of course, is with our severe economic depression, more so in this part of the state than in most others. When I was a young boy, my home town was booming because of a local air force base that supported our businesses and our population - which, at the time, was more than twice what it is now. As I advanced through my teens and into my twenties, I watched business after business fail. I watched shop after shop close down. I watched streets that used to be bustling with activity... become empty.

In my later teens I worked for Restaurants as a dish washer - they paid the minimum wage at the time, which was a little over five dollars an hour. This was roughly thirteen years ago. Last year I completed my first year of college (with significant help from my parents, and student loans/grants) and realized at the end of it, that I was in debt up to my eyeballs, could not find a good job, and had to move back in with my parents because I couldn't pay rent.

It's not just the area, either. I've heard many, many stories like mine, even from supposedly thriving big cities like Boston and New York. Even so... I feel that I'm one of the lucky ones. I have a job at a hotel where I make eight dollars an hour. Which, I suppose, is a bit of a step up from the 5.45 or so I made as a teenager, but still kind of hilarious. Take your standard car payment for a half decent used automobile, which is often somewhere around 160-200 (200 in my case). Then add up the price of gas (even with decent MPG) of a thirty mile commute each way, daily. Then of course there's all the odds and ends, like food, water, new clothes (thank God I can fit into dad's, because I can't afford to buy my own), shoes (mine are falling apart, but I still wear them), medical bills, repaying loan debts, trying to save for a child's college education while wistfully dreaming of one day having your own completed.

I work, typically, anywhere from 32-40 hours a week, no benefits, no breaks, on my feet about 80% of the time. Even so, this is nothing compared to how bad plenty of others have it.

It's not just college that's unaffordable - it's life in general. At this point most of us have to band together or live on the streets - unless we are either wealthy, or very, very fortunate to be in the tiny and ever shrinking middle class (what remains of it).

I can no longer justify the expense of a college education for myself. I can no longer have any reasonable expectation to repay the debts I would incur, to either the government or my family. I've given up on my own - but have some hope for my son, if I keep putting away twenty dollars a week for his future education (with my parents matching me) then we should be able to at least pay for him to attend a community college.

It's all about the money. Ever buy a 300 dollar book to be offered 15 dollars for it's return a few months later? Just one of the many ways that college students are screwed.

[marew]

160. Your words-the truest words written here!

"It's not just college that's unaffordable - it's life in general. At this point most of us have to band together or live on the streets - unless we are either wealthy, or very, very fortunate to be in the tiny and ever shrinking middle class (what remains of it)."

Despite the fact that education is no longer a vehicle to financial stability, it should be free or nearly free for those who want it as it is in many industrialized countries. It is obscene to put students in debt in this economy.

I got my undergrad degree in '68 mostly with help from my middle-class parents and a few part-time jobs. (One of those jobs was showing slides for art history classes- I loved that! There were also the waitress jobs, etc.) I got out of school virtually debt free. I worked for a year in the first job I applied for. I then received a full fellowship for grad school that even gave me money for living expenses. When I returned I was snapped up by the same employer I'd worked for previously despite the fact there were other applicants. I stayed there for over 30 years. I worked in a charmed time and was incredibly lucky. (I live modestly- always have- and attempt to give back through regular volunteer work.) Even people without degrees could make a very successful living back then. No more- not even close.

A dear friend has a 55 year old daughter who has spent decades supervising kitchens in large nursing homes. She is extremely conscientious, skilled, and hard working. But about 5 to 7 years ago corporations began to buy up these facilities in our area and it has been a disaster. This gal has not had a raise in over 5 years. She is so good at what she does that they regularly have her travel to other facilities in the area to help others in her position. The first time she did it they gave her a gas card to cover her expenses but have never done that again. They also have cut significantly the wages of kitchen workers- from $12 an hour to maybe $8 or $9. (I can see it now- these people simply struggling to survive will be soundly criticized by the powers that be for not saving for retirement.) Oh, and the money she is allowed to spend per meal is steadily decreasing. She can't quit and find another employer as all the nursing homes in this area are owned by the same mega corporation. Corporate greed- all vicious, relentless corporate greed. We know this is happening all over the country in virtually all industries. Let's not even get into the millions of manufacturing jobs that have gone overseas.

I listened to a well-known economist recently who said by 2030 virtually all wealth will be inherited. The uber wealthy have the loopholes, the offshore accounts, etc. The rest of us have been bought and sold by corrupt corporations, lobbyists, and legislators.

I read that many corporate heads- according to a study- display sociopathic behaviors. Hardly a surprise...

All that seems to matter to the vast majority in Washington are the one percenters. The rest of us could jump off a cliff and they'd not give a dang.

I do not know where this will end. But I do believe it will get a lot, lot worse before it gets better.

[ChangeUp106]

100. Eh

I actually donated some of my graduation money back to my school because I had such a wonderful experience and want to stay connected for life. I guess everyone has different experiences...

[Arugula Latte]

104. Did it cost you $45,000 a year to go to your university? If not, how much was it, and in what year?

[ChangeUp106]

134. No it was around $30,000

And I graduated last May

[Arugula Latte]

161. $120,000 for an undergrad education. That's utterly ridiculous.

People in other more civilized countries are horrified by our system and priorities -- and deservedly so.

[taught_me_patience]

112. Pathetic sour grapes

Nobody put a gun to this guy's head and forced him (or her) into this predicament. Judging by this letter, I can see why he/she can't find a job. As an employer, I wouldn't touch this asshat with a ten foot pole. The author is a pathetic piece of shit.

full disclosure: I paid 90k for an MBA from a top 20 school that has not paid off whatsoever. I'm 75k in debt and owe 500/mo for the next 25 years for my education. I still donate $100/year to both my undergrad and graduate schools to help pay for scholarships for those in need.

[merrily]

121. "The author is a pathetic piece of shit." nt

[King_Klonopin]

137. I agree with the sentiment

but it seems like a general screed that never gets sent anywhere but
places like DU.

I received a BS degree from a public, state university -- twice.

From 1978 to 1982, the tuition was $500/semester (room and board
was $500)
I graduated without any loans to pay and a useless psych. degree.

From 1984 to 1988, tuition was $750/semester. I had federal grants
to help, but Saint Ronnie cut them and I financed the last year on
a credit card at 19% interest. At the time, I thought I was getting
royally screwed, but the screwing had just begun for future students.
I graduated with loan payments of $130/month for about 18 months
and a more useful BSN degree, because it was financially feasible.
Now, higher education is either an economic luxury or a burden to
class mobility. This is very poor investment policy.

[wyldwolf]

140. I agree to a point

I must have went to college on the tail end of the time where you could actually work your way through school and come out with no loan debt. I was on what we affectionately called the 6 year plan because I often took semesters off to work full time and set back some money. My parents, on the lower end of the middle class scale, gave me a bed to sleep in and food to eat when I was home.

I graduated with a degree that didn't do me much good and after languishing in a low paying (REAL low paying - like just above the minimum wage) job in my profession for several years, I decided to teach myself IT. And then, after scraping together some cash, went back to a tech center to get a few IT certifications.

I later found out a lot of my friends went back to school for second degrees in hopes their job prospects would improve.

At this point in my life, I don't believe my first degree opened any doors for me yet my school still sends me letters begging for money.

While I believe the cost of a degree does and should rise (professors and faculty/staff deserve raises, costs of operation increases, etc.), I believe the costs have risen quickly and to the point I feel like I'm dealing with greedy corporations.

[Enthusiast]

141. Kicked and recommended!

[cactusfractal]

143. Yeah, I doubt it...

While being "overeducated and underemployed" is a very real and entirely dysfunctional thing in 21st Century America, I doubt this missive was written by someone who just spent six years pursuing a graduate degree and another two furiously penning cover letters. While not everyone who writes papers in school manages to come out writing well, there's an unmistakable tone to the writing of a recent grad, and a certain attention to not making "freshman mistakes" in grammar and structure. This doesn't have either.

There are other pointers that lead me to believe this was thrown together as a Facebook like harvester more than anything, but that analysis is left as an exercise for the reader.

[JPZenger]

146. It was written in 2010

I wonder which university it involved.

[randys1]

152. I say only the rich and powerful should be allowed higher educations

the rest of us dont need to be educated, we need to be physically strong and mentally dull, so we can do our job and not complain

[malaise]

154. Wow!

Brilliant

[HughBeaumont]

155. Some of the responses on here are about as cold as Northeastern weather.

Maybe our "Big Tent" economic scolds can explain to me how their precious Trapitalism continues (when 2/3rds of it's perpetuation depends on consumption, by the way) when corporations, the wealthy that run them and the low-tax/kick-the-can economics they nailed in place back in the 1980s just indebted an entire generation out of purchasing necessities and big ticket items and placed more burden on their Boomer/Buster/Gen X parents and the states they live in.

Maybe the bootstrapper/"guud ol' fashened GUMPSHUN" crowd can tell me how 45-and-under America has a future when we have no money to save for retirement because our flatlined wage decoupled with the rising cost of living around 1979, thereby forcing us to work until we're in our 70s, but live under the prospect of unspoken ageism which lays us off; while at the same time, instead of employing younger indebted workers, put more burden on the imported workers they decide to keep?

Maybe the "Nation of Whiners" bunch can explain to me the sensible sense behind this awesome menu for America:

* Learn a potentially unsafe (short and long term) contract-term trade tethered by either the employment prospects of the people you're servicing or the local/state budgets which your success depends on (yeah, ask electricians how well THEY'RE doing).

* Blow thousands upon thousands of dollars on a brand/degree so you can get excluded from the corporate interviewing process in the first round for not being extroverted enough and suffer through un/under-employment, while crushing interest accumulates on that debt.

* Start your own crapshoo . . . er . . . business . . . again, very high cost and completely tethered by the employment prospects and disposable income of the people you're servicing.

* Fall out of the correct womb.

Any of you life-landmine-free, fortune teller finger waggers got a road map to THAT happy ending, because I'm just not seeing one?

[FairWinds]

157. The poster's points were somewhat weak . .

especially in terms of a "public policy" analysis (his own field).
He should have gotten into predatory student loans (which have
actually been pushed by some corrupt univ. finance offices); declining
state subsidies for higher education (did he go to a state school?);
for-profit proprietary universities (Goldman Sachs higher ed);
and more . . .

[Amaya]

158. And... I think the writer is correct

[Shoonra]

165. True beyond words

We just spent four years fighting tooth and nail for affordable health insurance .... but we still don't have affordable education! Since it is now widely acknowledged that a college education is almost a necessity for a desirable career - and for the nation's progress - you'd think someone would care enough to make it more, not less, available, especially to those demographic groups who have, in previous generations, found the academic doors shut to them.

Not so. The colleges which used to discriminate on the basis of race now discriminate on the basis of wealth, which is not terribly different. And graduates who weren't born wealthy leave school with unspeakable financial burdens that effectively keep them as financially thin as if they didn't go to college and stuck to waiting tables and flipping burgers. This is particularly mean because the debt is owed to the government - so it cannot be discharged by bankruptcy, although it may make bankruptcy necessary to avoid being crushed by all of life's other debts.

Nobody thought about the effect on the economy of such a massive debt being borne by such a huge segment of the population. Just as nobody thought about the effect of unregulated stock investing prior to 1929.

[TheKentuckian]

180. Reading this thread makes me wonder, in many cases, what is the point of the Democratic party?

Way too many "bootstrap" retreads along with a health dose of the Turd Way "wise consumer of ____" responses.

If this is the "grass roots" then absolutely no help can be expected of the millionaires club we pretend to elect.

[treestar]

181. A good point but he overdoes it

Why rant on about China - just stick to the point and keep out the profanity. It would be more convincing.

[Yavin4]

189. Outside of the Ivy League and a few others in the top 10, ALL UNIVERSITIES ARE OVER PRICED

And the only reason why the Ivys are a decent investment is that their alumni look out for them when they're looking to start their careers. ALL OTHER SCHOOLS ARE OVER PRICED.

Here's the advice I give to 17 year olds. Try to get into an Ivy league or other top 10 schools. If you don't get in, go the cheapest route you can to get a college degree. Do the JR. College for 2 year /State U for 2 years route. Whatever. Don't worry about the quality of the school. That's all B.S.