General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWe're really swimming in it now.
Today, at work, I found folks who are well-entrenched in Zimmerman's defense who weren't shy about angrily defaming young Trayvon and loudly proclaiming the gunman's innocence. I'm only mentioning this here because I haven't had this type of experience since the 'Rodney King incident' years ago. It's a wake-up call to me.
These Zimmerman defenders were taking their reasoning right from the script of the news reports which most of us believe actually favor the circumstance that Trayvon was pursued, accosted, threatened, and then shot. The 911 call, for instance, sounds to clearly record Trayvon crying out for help before a shot rang out -- then, silence; no more cries for help.
The logic says that was, indeed, Trayvon, all the way. However, I was subject to a stereo defense of Zimmerman today at work from a couple co-workers who expressed anger at the dead kid. Some said they would, themselves, have pursued Trayvon and chased him from their neighborhood. That notions raised were really over the top. I'm just floored by the impressions of this youth that folks defending Zimmerman have developed and are promoting.
There were insinuations from these folks that Trayvon had committed some sort of crime to merit a confrontation from Zimmerman. There were claims from these folks that the cries for help were Zimmerman's. I can't see how someone 'getting his head bashed in' and 'semi-conscious' (as described by his defenders) and still making those clear and distinct cries for help. Yet, these folks defending him were so certain . . .
What did I get from all that today-- and why bother to add to all of the angst by going into this here? I'm wondering if we're not seeing the fault lines in this incident of a major cultural divide. Inevitably, there are going to be folks who will stake their view of race relations and the relevance of these issues raised on the strength of the evidence which emerges from this curiously long investigative process and hopeful prosecution. That's on either side of the fault line.
I hope for a thorough and complete investigation and a swift prosecution if the facts support my view from the outside of this incident. In that scenario of his prosecution and conviction, I would hope that folks who so eagerly blamed the dead child for his own demise would take the same amount of time to represent and promote Trayvon's character in a positive light -- as well as take some time out to re-evaluate their own negative preconceptions about our minority youth.
I would also hope that we would take a lesson from this incident and try and be more circumspect in our representations of our social counterparts. We can't possibly know, at this point, just who these two principles actually are from news reports and the anecdotal.
I think we're heading for a larger collision of impressions and perceptions of each other, based on our impressions and perceptions of this case. Of course, we're rational. Of course, we're reasonable and fair. But, we're also impressionable and vulnerable to the emotional and pernicious manipulations of some of the folks managing this media-driven tragedy. I just had a uncharacteristic shouting match about this case with a couple of co-workers. We quieted down quickly enough after we had our say, but all of what was said is still simmering inside. I know that I'm mad as hell and have entertained thoughts of the same type of vigilantism I decry in this case. I can only imagine what the folks who held diametrically opposite opinions are thinking.
This isn't going to resolve itself easily. I know that's an understatement, but I can gauge the depth of feeling out there from my own attitude and from the equally insistent attitudes from those with views opposite mine. This is a powder keg ready to explode (or implode and aggravate and deepen already unresolved tensions over the characterizations surrounding this presidential election). I can see political lines being drawn over where we stand.
I know how angry I am over this and I can imagine having to defend my views and perceptions into perpetuity against outlandish stereotypes and slurs, much like I have about the 'King' incident years ago. We're really swimming in it now.
russspeakeasy
(6,539 posts)olegramps
(8,200 posts)This case would have never been pursued if it hadn't been exposed those who are being charged with sensationalizing and exploiting the issue. It appears to me that the authorities didn't investigate the incident properly and this young man's death would have been justified and the case closed with Zimmerman regarded as a model upright citizen and hero for protecting his neighbors from a dangerous Black thug. End of story.
It was the media, with all off its faults that you have correctly pointed out, that has revealed that this young man's death was certainly subject to further investigation. The facts that are being revealed, in my estimation, demand further investigation than was originally the intent of the authorities.
Just on the surface, I would think that this so-called Stand Your Ground law, would seem to apply more to the Trayvon Martin who was killed rather than to Zimmerman. The kid armed Ice Tea and Skittles was certainly no match for a grown man, who incidentally has a rather checked past at best, who was armed with a 9mm gun.
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)thanks.
SamG
(535 posts)Recommending this because of your thoughtful statements. I wonder how many OTHER DU'ers will run up against the Zimmerman defenders/Martin detractors.
As Melissa Harris-Perry just asked on her morning show today, how innocent and pure must a victim be?
Royal Sloan 09
(406 posts)ChicagoRonin
(630 posts)That's what we've come down to, as far as I can tell. It no longer matters what the facts are, what science might tell us, what the actual laws on the books are. We've reached a point where people will stick to the reality that they 'believe' rather than anything objective. Thus, in the case of the Trayvon Martin case, there unfortunately seems to be a mass of people in America for whom it is absolutely impossible that Trayvon could be the victim, that the police did anything wrong, that the Stand Your Ground law is an act of insanity, that the use of deadly force in civil altercations should not be allowed, or that maybe the white guy (or guys) is the villain.
As far as I'm concerned, regardless of who wins legally in this case, our country - the United States of America - has lost. Lost its mind, lost its soul. If true justice is served and Zimmerman is properly arrested and tried, and all wrongdoings are appropriately punished, then those who 'believe' that Trayvon was at fault will simply see this as proof that they are the victims. If Zimmerman gets away with it, it will simply add to the public anger and cynicism that the system is gamed, bought and run for the benefit of the gun lobby, of white people, of the rich and/or politically well-connected. I see nothing but continued public anger, tension, strife, disagreements and potentially an escalation of open hostility between Americans.
The truth is already dead, one way or another.
Hawkowl
(5,213 posts)This is precisely what has disturbed me. It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with a large percentage of people anymore. Everyone "feels" or "believes" things to be true. No one "thinks" or "proves" their position anymore. If you ask anyone a few logical questions that shows their position to be in error, you simply get a shrug in response with a "that's how I feel" or "that's my opinion". You can't argue with feelings.
This faith based system of analysis and decision making is disastrous for our society. We as a democracy, will no longer be able to make logical decisions about, law, science, health, or economics. However, the rest of the world will. So the USA will be relegated to third world status. I do not see this turning around in the 30 or so years I have left on this planet.
lisby
(408 posts)Everyone "feels" instead of reasons. I've noticed this, too. People simply can no longer separate themselves from the argument. It *is* them. There's no reasoned debate any more. It's all or nothing, black or white, my team vs. your team. Magical thinking and reasoning...
Sigh.
I fear for where we are headed.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Try being an atheist in the bible belt. Like you say, once this people believe something, all the evidence in the world can not lodge that belief from their heads. K&R to the OP
KansDem
(28,498 posts)And when you do have a discussion and find you're "winning" due to facts and logic, the "faith-based debater" pulls out the ol' "We can agree to disagree" conclusion, effectively shutting down the discussion.
For example, I had an "discussion" with my sister last year. She is vehemently "anti-union" and believes "If The Man is signing your paycheck, you do what The Man says." To illustrate the need for unions, I brought up the Massey Mine disaster and asked her if there had been a union to put pressure on the company to follow safety regulations, would 25 miners have died? If a union had threatened to strike if safety issues weren't addressed by management, would the owners have ignored the problems? We went back and forth a few times until she pulled out the "Well, we can agree to disagree" excuse.
No, Sis...we can't "agree to disagree" when you refuse to recognize logic and facts.
I don't talk much with my Sis these days...
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)jaysunb
(11,856 posts)With whites becoming the minority race in this country it will only get worse. I see a pre war Germany being set up right now. The media and it's owners are largely responsible and complicit in giving credence to the very hot sparks that feed this coming fire.
Good people need to see what time it is and act.
Good post.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)However letting the media form your opinion is in your control
and I don't believe people need to turn on a TV/radio to have an opinion; it is already formed and generational
and remember all the "good" people in Germany who turned or buried their heads.
CanonRay
(14,103 posts)People not only make decision in the absence of facts, they resent when facts are presented to them and reject those facts out of hand precisely beause they go against their magical thinking. I believe this country is in serious trouble in this country, and our leadership is unable, or unwilling to lead us out of it.
truthseeker68
(15 posts)and Zimmerman is cleared will you accept it.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)Is that both sides, or is that just our side?
Who are "some" of the folks managing this media-driven tragedy?
Does that include Sharpton and O'Donnell?
http://dailyhowler.blogspot.com/
"Its part of the tragedy of this case that a 13-year-old has been dragged in this mess. But ODonnell has been picking and choosing and misstating facts all through the course of this spreading disaster, pimping himself for his courage and greatness as he does. In the passage weve quoted above, he complained about the rank incompetence of the police, even as he bravely continued to spread his disinformation."
yardwork
(61,622 posts)bigtree
(85,996 posts)You're stretching to put a fine point on this. All we have right now are our opinions. I'm fully in Travon's corner. There's really no daylight at all between his family's supporters and his defenders and my own feelings and opinion.
As for the rest, and others, I can only listen and observe (and try and defend my own positions). Do I really have to characterize the perniciousness of the media for you?
Btw, I think Al Sharpton is a fine man and a dedicated and committed activist for many progressive causes and issues. I don't have any beef at all with him.
If I tell you (as I directed my comments to the community here) that I'm inclined to accept that you are fair and reasonable, I'd think that would be a welcome attitude from a poster.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)would say that I am bull-headed and stubborn.
I think that most people are like that, to a degree. Nobody wants to be wrong, and even less to admit that they were wrong. As the quote goes (one whose source I have forgotten, other than Reader's Digest's "Quotable quotes" section)
"Given a choice between
a. Changing their mind, and
b. proving that there is no need to do so
most people will get busy on the proof."
As for Sharpton, I mostly like him. However, he seems to have spread misinformation about the Martin case.
"STUTZMAN (3/24/12): There is a great deal of misinformation surrounding the Trayvon Martin shooting. Here are some of the most prominent misunderstandings:
Cops returned the gun to shooter George Zimmerman.
Untrue, according to police. Sanford Officer Tim Smith handcuffed Zimmerman, and then pulled from a holster in Zimmerman's waistband the black Kel Tec 9 mm PF9, a semiautomatic. The gun is now in the possession of authorities, officially part of the evidence in the case."
Whereas Sharpton had been repeatedly claiming that Zimmerman was allowed to keep his gun.
Somerby has spent years pointing out that the media spreads novelized tales, does not present the facts, but presents narratives as facts. Narratives that fit into a script.
However, he gets in trouble with the tribe when he points out that "our" side does it too, and when it turns out that a script which is pleasing to us really isn't true.
There is plenty of perniciousness to go around. I am not in Trayvon's corner. Neither am I against him. However, I do observe that some of his supporters seem to be overzealous.
bigtree
(85,996 posts)As in most public cases like this one, we tend to think back to our own families and our own vulnerabilities as we defend our individual opinions. That's not a trivial or contrived reaction, from most, I believe. There are unresolved and active issues involving race and its relationship with the efforts and actions of our law enforcement and justice systems. Many of these go to the heart of what many would regard as their citizenship rights. It may well be a projection, but it's natural, I think, for folks to relate these events to their own life experiences and the resolution and disposition of which can be both symbolically and substantively significant to them.
I mentioned Rodney King. I remember wearing a black ribbon to work the day of the nationwide protest. I had to work and couldn't attend the protest event so it was said that we could demonstrate our solidarity by wearing the ribbon. When my store manager (an open Reagan supporter) saw it he knew immediately what it was and demanded I remove it. We have a pretty good company and I called the race relations manager at corporate and was first told no. I explained that I had heard that the inner city stores were handing them out to employees and I was put on hold. She came back and told me that she had confirmed this and that I'd be able to wear it in my suburban store.
I still have that ribbon. To me, the incident and the system's response said to me, a black, young American male, that I had no full citizenship rights in this country; not as long as Mr. King was denied his. That's where this relates and that's where emotions run deep. Think about it.
Most assuredly, the media firestorm regarding this incident is open for debate. However, one glaring FACT of this incident is irrefutable: a young BLACK child was killed. That is, and will remain, the crux of this entire debate. I find it both logical and understandable that some of Trayvon's supporters "seem to be overzealous."
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)but young black children are killed every day. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=448935 Does Trayvon matter more than Jalisa or Ranisha? Not to me, he doesn't. There have been over 900 homicides in America since Trayvon died. Perhaps we could be doing something about the bigger picture. Perhaps we could be reducing the amount of hate and violence in this country. It seems to me that the media firestorm from our side is trying to stir up a whole bunch of black vs. white hatred, mistrust and ill will. Something I don't think is very productive.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)Is that the others are being treated as crimes, with the perpetrator being prosecuted.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)and even if that was the case, the young black person would be no less dead, and the violence and killing continues unabated.
http://homicide.kansascity.com/victims/36/
"no suspects have been arrested for this crime"
http://www.kmbc.com/news/30639826/detail.html
Three people arrested, but no charges have been filed. As of April 2nd, I cannot find an article about charges being filed.
One other difference between the three cases is that Trayvon was killed by a non-black. So this incident can be used to stir up hatred between blacks and non-blacks. Because one young man was killed in this incident, the country can be told what a serious problem it is that young black men are profiled and suspected of being thugs. Whereas, apparently, the deaths of these other 900 people, many of them also young and black, are not a serious problem.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)I guess Trayvon is still going to school and Zimmerman is a cop?
Oh wait...
This story is pregnant with race, and yes....white privilidge.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)is from the OP
"I think we're heading for a larger collision of impressions and perceptions of each other, based on our impressions and perceptions of this case. Of course, we're rational. Of course, we're reasonable and fair. But, we're also impressionable and vulnerable to the emotional and pernicious manipulations of some of the folks managing this media-driven tragedy."
I would say that some in the media are pushing the race angle and pushing their notion of white privilege.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Drips with white .... Oh never mind. The us has absolutely zero issues with race.
Have a good day.
yardwork
(61,622 posts)The misinformation is spread by for-profit entertainment that we have in the U.S. now in place in journalism. Rupert Murdoch's empire is behind a lot of that, and so is Clear Channel radio, which broadcasts Rush Limbaugh and a bunch of even more hateful crap as part of the Republican strategy. It's all fear, fear, fear 24/7.
I have a distant family member who listens to hate radio all the time. Another relative tells me that he's gone completely around the bend. He believes that we are on the edge of a race war. He's stockpiling weapons. He believes every hateful extreme right-wing thing we've ever heard and probably some we've been lucky enough never to hear. I am not in contact with this relative (by choice). I haven't spoken to him in years and don't plan to, but I have no doubt that he is convinced that George Zimmerman is a hero.
The war on drugs keeps a vast number of young black people locked up in prisons and provides convenient "evidence" of the need to fear black people. Meanwhile, truly violent individuals like George Zimmerman get charges dropped again and again.
People will say, "Well, George Zimmerman is Hispanic, so it proves that this is not about race." Those people don't know anything about Florida. It's hard to know where to begin to explain.
Our country has gone insane. The top 1% control all the wealth and power. The rest of us are fighting over scraps. We can't even agree to give one another access to health care. Greed is destroying the country.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)Total AGI in 2007 was 8.7985 trillion (according to IRS statistics).
The top .1% got 1.04 trillion of it.
The top 1% got 1.79 trillion of it.
Leaving about $7 trillion for the 99%. Estimating that there are 310 million of us. 99% of that is 307 million.
Thus, in 2007, the 99% had $22,801 for every man, woman, and child.
That seems like a pretty big scrap to me, although it is now less than I make. I even make more than my equal share of the whole pie, which would be $28,382. Whereas I make about $32,310.
Point is, that we fight over scraps not just because of the 1%.
The top 5% get 3.29 trillion, or 37% of the total
The top 10% get 4.23 trillion, or 48% of the total.
The top 50% get 7.72 trillion, or almost 88% of the total.
There is the scrap-fighting. The bottom 50% dividing up a mere 12% of the pie.
But it's not just the top 1%. The top 4%, the top 9% have good slices as well, and they mostly do not want to share with the bottom 95% or the bottom 90%. They only want to share with the top 1%.
happerbolic
(140 posts)... & more
Tax Stats, straight from the source!
http://www.irs.gov/taxstats/article/0,,id=102886,00.html
Finally, I have had enough of you, and your argumentative, condescending nay-saying.
Our entire planet must contend with the consequences of radical income inequity. Those with power (and the vast majority of this planet's resources) continue to push technologies that pollute, and threaten to destroy our species. A growing number of us are doing what we can to change this, before it's too late.
Nit-picking about the minutiae of 'scrap-fighting' is just another red herring, and an egregious waste of time and energy. I hope you will consider redirecting your time and efforts.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)That should be pretty obvious from the pie. Those with 27% of the income (the 1%), consume fewer resources than those with 73% of the income. Most of us can probably do more to conserve and recycle.
If we are "fighting over scraps" it is often because people with a good sized "scrap" look at somebody who has more and says "I want more too".
I happen to enjoy facts and statistics. I am sorry if that annoys you.
As far as what "a growing number of us" are doing to change things, I'd love to see the plan. What do you think would be a better use of my time and efforts?
trekbiker
(768 posts)very well reasoned and cool headed. It's situations like this Zimmerman case that turn me off to DU and it reminds me of the emotional irrationality over at Free Republic. I try to keep an open mind about Zimmerman (innocent until proven guilty) but right now the facts are piling up and in this case (unlike OJ) I feel justice will ultimately be served and Zimmerman will likely end up like Dalmer.
BTW, I am a member of the "10%" and completely agree with your economic analysis
totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)Dalmer was convicted of first degree murder. Most legal observers believe that if Zimmerman is charged it will be for something like manslaughter, not murder. As a first offender, he would probably be out of prison in about three years. He has been charged with crimes before but never convicted so he would be considered a first offender. This doesn't take into consideration a possible federal civil rights charge.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)Baitball Blogger
(46,720 posts)The more they keep that shit up about chasing black kids out of their neighborhood, the harder the jerk when they realize that Trayvon was murdered. And, yes, they keep that shit up and there will be rioting once the truth comes out.
starroute
(12,977 posts)A fair chunk of this country is firmly in a state of denial. Denial of climate change. Denial that President Obama was born in Hawaii.
And when the facts come out about the killing of Trayvon Martin, they will decide that it is all a plot by the "liberal media." The ordinary Fox News viewer will be sure it's part of a scheme to reelect the president, but the more paranoid and/or white supremacist elements will decide the intention is to incite a race war while taking away the gun rights that would allow them to defend themselves in such a war.
We have the makings of a "stabbed in the back" narrative here, and that sort of thing never turns out well.
Baitball Blogger
(46,720 posts)What I expect to happen, which is already happening with some Republicans, is they want to know why this has turned into a white vs. black thing when Zimmerman was an hispanic.
They forget about the bi-cultured upbringing, and especially, they forget that his daddy judge gave him a way of life that often leads to behavior that none of us would ever consider because we know we don't have the strings to pull us out of trouble.
knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)They were very angry about the case to begin with, and I found some "news" articles with quite a bit of spin/propaganda in them and walked the kids through identifying the techniques and why they're propaganda. There's a lot out there, sadly, and I was so proud of my students for seeing through it so quickly and asking the right questions from the start.
There's still hope for the generation coming up, but you're right: racism's more than alive and well in American. It's actually growing in some areas.
blaze
(6,362 posts)Thank you!
(for being a teacher who cares!!)
knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)That's why teachers are so easy to take advantage of--we care about our students more than most other things and tend to ignore when we're getting taken to the cleaners.
My students are amazing, and it's an honor to work with them most days. They were seeing right through all the propaganda from the right-wing so easily and then did pretty well applying that skill to new and different pieces of propaganda on the assessment. I'm pretty proud of them today.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)You're teaching your students to think critically. To question what they hear and read about. Good for you!
Critical thinking is a very important tool and it does need to be taught.
Do you allow your students to sit in class and have discussions among themselves without doing anything more than making them stay on subject?
knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)I think it's the most effective way for them to learn to read and think critically as long as all voices are heard and encouraged.
My juniors finished Frankenstein this week by having a mock trial and putting the creature and Victor on trial for the murders in the novel. I had to teach them a lot about how court works, how to build a case, how to make a ruling based only on the law and the evidence presented in the trial, and how to handle perjury. We had a lot of fun, and most of them seemed to have learned something.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Good teachers are so underrated! Yet they are uniquely situated to influence more people than any other profession. A good teacher like you will be a positive life changing influence on hundreds of kids. They'll remember you for the rest of their lives.
LuckyLib
(6,819 posts)skills with them for life -- the ability to see through the media, to question authority, to think for themselves.
You rock!
knitter4democracy
(14,350 posts)I hope they remember this skill. It's so important for life.
lunasun
(21,646 posts)Mariana
(14,857 posts)My 8th grade English teacher spent some time teaching us about propaganda techniques, and giving examples of them. It was one of the most valuable lessons I ever learned in school. I use what I learned in his class daily.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)byronius
(7,395 posts)fasttense
(17,301 posts)It is so powerful it can make a good, kind man support child rape. I kid you not.
Back when the bushes were finishing out their Supreme Court appointment and right after the torture and abuse at Abu Ghraib came out, I had a conversation with a very religious man. He was always calm and collected and he tried to follow a true Christian path. He was kind and loving to his family and believed in charity and forgiveness. He was smart and I enjoyed talking to him.
But when I argued that torture never works at getting the truth, when I explained to him that American soldiers were raping 14 year old boys and calling it interrogation, he said to me that he would rather have 100 little boys raped then one American soldier die.
Three months later, I repeated back what he had said to me and he blushed, ashamed.
He has since moved and I don't have hour long conversations with him anymore. But I will always remember how the propaganda and spin the bushes put out about torture even turned his head.
zeemike
(18,998 posts)Used for nationalism...
It causes the "troops: to become so idolized that morality is put out the window....nothing they do can ever be wrong.
FiveGoodMen
(20,018 posts)Shame's not enough for his statement.
He should have put a gun to his own head.
mick063
(2,424 posts)will directly affect my respect meter.
Folks defend Zimmerman one day, then claim moral indignation for a Government "attack" on religion the next.
These cultists scare the living crap out of me. We have a Rev. Jim Jones-like following on a national scale.
gateley
(62,683 posts)EXCELLENT comparison! You're right.
And they scare the living crap out of me, too. I think when we dismiss them or scoff at their stupidity/ignorance, we do so at our own peril.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)It must be linked on another site or two.
ellisonz
(27,711 posts)I just turned on the social media buttons to see if it was shared and not a single soul has done so - probably Freepers/Stormfront getting ready for another troll attack.
stevedeshazer
(21,653 posts)+1
droidamus2
(1,699 posts)I wonder how many of these Zimmerman apologists who claim 'the black kid must of been up to no good' before they have really heard anything but media innuendo and rumor are the same ones that had OJ Simpson convicted (no I don't want to re-argue that case and OJ's ultimate guilt or innocence isn't the point) before his team had even been able to put up a defense. Isn't it interesting that in each of these cases their off the cuff conclusions cited the 'black guy' as being in the wrong even without any real evidence one way or the other. Do you think there may be some significance in this?
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)True story from where I live...
We had an older African American couple move in with their grand daughter about a year ago. Most of my neighbors were troubled. Me, I have zero issues. We talk, offered to help kid with her history work, she was having some issues.
You want to know the issues? I sent a tongue lashing to the school district. It wasn't the kid, nope, the material sanitized the African Experience. I call that the Texas effect. Oh never mind California also publishes textbooks.
The sheepish answer, well eight graders aren't ready.
I sent another tongue lashing, having grown in another country and exposed to the Holocaust since Kindergarden, I did not buy the let's protect the kids bullshit.
She wrote a paper referencing actual slave bills of sale for that class, yup, i got them...properly footnoted by Chicago manual of style. She got an A...and me and the school district are not exactly in the best of terms. I don't have kids, but damn it, kids are not ready to read that dead slaves or indentured were thrown off in open sea like yesterday's garbage. Oh she included the white experience of indentured servitude, for "balance." Can't say school liked that much either.
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Good for you and the girl!!
One of my proudest days was when my six year old son told me all about Rosa Parks and MLK Jr and the civil rights movement. I'll never forget it or the look of earnestness and concern on his young face. I just let him tell me all about it and he did, without making a single mistake.
I busted buttons in my pride that day.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)This white washing of American History "to protect the children" does not help us get beyond this issues and heal. It is not different from Washington Irving's George could not tell a lie bullshit.
She was having issues because she challenged the teacher regularly in the white washing, with sources.
They admitted that they were under constant pressure from concerned parents not to trouble the children.
newspeak
(4,847 posts)As a people, I think, we need to face the truth of our history in order to heal. My friend and I used to debate all the time about cultural, historical relativism. My argument was that if there was an awareness that the policy was immoral, wrong from even a small group, then you can't hide behind cultural relativism and shrug if off. (we were arguing the issue of slavery)
Most of the repugs would love to push the idealized history, and some of it is pure fabrication. That doesn't help us as a nation grow or become aware citizens. Of course, that's exactly what they want.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)suchinstitution such as slavery. In-fact when writing and reading history that is fundamental. We had this discussion in a Historical method class. I made, without knowing, a minority argument in the states...you can understand it, but also understand it's moral folly. I used the Holocaust and Nuremberg effectively. I even changed the view on that from the professor, who was a friend of relativism.
bluesbassman
(19,374 posts)The fundamentalists, whether they be religous, economic, or social, seem to retreat further and further into their beliefs with not only little regard for opposing viewpoints but more often open scorn for facts and reality.
Response to bigtree (Original post)
Post removed
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)This gated community has middle class folks of many colors.
They had the problem of a gunshot from a self appointed vigilante.
Scared of a multicultural society, aren't you?
Enjoy your stay.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)People are tired of crime in their 'hoods
REASON FOR ALERT:
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YOUR COMMENTS:
Troll promoting bigoted racial stereotypes.
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Thank you.
nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)Hey I wished him enjoyment of a brief stay...thirty seconds IS brief.
happerbolic
(140 posts)Ha!
Always the symptoms of what we see happen after a bad rash of Neocon Principles being exposed (forced) upon society,
These loops are becoming just plain silly, now.
Social (societal - in case that word hurts and lurking bagger's ears) harmony starts from the top down.
just need to get our Pres. across that Finish Tape, and know the next four are going to receive some much needed repair - and it will happen.
Holding out More than hope on that one
Aerows
(39,961 posts)Welcome to DU
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)And this poster is gone...in a flash! Oh, the huge manatee!
Number23
(24,544 posts)Flash Mobs!!!!
Behold the Flash Mob in action!! Flee for your lives!
eggplant aubergine
(8 posts)http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-06-06/news/ct-edit-mob-20110606_1_flash-mob-rash-of-similar-crimes-chicago-police
I could go on and on. I am not worried about flash mobs; I was talking about other people and what they might be experiencing. But you want to obscure the issue and make fun of me instead. Are you Black? Go talk to some middle-class Black folks in South Side Chicago 'hoods who have been beseiged by thugs in the last few years due to gentrification. Go laugh with them.
And I awoke to multiple gun shots. If you think that is some sort of joke, then there's something wrong with you.
Number23
(24,544 posts)What will its user name be this time? Anyone wanna guess? Anyone care?
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)Definitely Mauve. Gentrified Mauve. Because they are gay flash mobs attacking the area with their flamboyant colors, understanding of diversity, and their longing for the right to marry. How dare they.
Response to Aerows (Reply #123)
Post removed
lunasun
(21,646 posts)I think you meant melanzana or moolie for fake tag just say it
maryellen99
(3,789 posts)Response to maryellen99 (Reply #36)
Post removed
lunatica
(53,410 posts)Please post a link to a story about a Mayor anywhere filling up empty apartments in good neighborhoods with people from the projects. And please post links to the shootings, flash mobs and other assorted mayhem caused in the suburbs by children raised without fathers.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)lunatica
(53,410 posts)Thanks. I noticed that after I replied.
pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)bigtree
(85,996 posts)pinboy3niner
(53,339 posts)bigtree
(85,996 posts)I can see that.
Thing is, there is a basic thread that runs through our system of justice which allows our citizens to be regarded as responsible and legitimate, until proven otherwise. I think that most law enforcement takes care to make certain that their authority isn't some sort of paternalistic overlord and takes pains to restrain themselves from regarding folks as potential criminals. That's the heart of this case. There's an unschooled, inexperienced, mostly unaccountable figure in Mr. Zimmerman (armed) assuming the complex task of maintaining that line between suspicion and an assumption of guilt. In my opinion, he failed that (assumed) responsibility miserably; tragically, no matter who you view as the aggressor in this incident. The folks in those neighborhoods you describe aren't automatically placed in some special category; their rights to be regarded as outside of our constitution and our civil rights -- just because they live in a high crime area. Mr. Zimmerman was in no position to make those critical judgments in his voluntary, unofficial role as community defender and enforcer. It's painfully evident.
broiles
(1,367 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)happerbolic
(140 posts)nadinbrzezinski
(154,021 posts)K Gardner
(14,933 posts)we're going back to civil rights era, I'm marching this time. Enough.
MrScorpio
(73,631 posts)You're making the mistake of thinking that these people can be rational and logical about simple facts when they're already biased beyond redemption.
It's a fact hat everyone make investments from which they expect some kind of return. Your acquaintances have obviously invested in their own white privilege.
By doing this, they risk that investment by agreeing with your point of view.
You've not going to get them to consider otherwise unless they start investing in a more just and equal society.
Mariana
(14,857 posts)I'm not getting that impression at all from these crazy-ass Zimmerman defenders. I get the impression that they're pretending to believe what they say. They have to, don't they? They can't just say, "Of course he ran down that ....... and shot him, so what? I'm glad he did! No one should go to jail for killing them!" So they put on this ridiculous act instead.
secondvariety
(1,245 posts)I see it in their eyes where I work-the look of a lie, the look that I know it's a lie, the look of shame coupled with pure hate on their faces.
I'd feel sorry for my co-workers if they were just ignorant, but they know better and choose to be as they are.
Mariana
(14,857 posts)lunasun
(21,646 posts)out right hate will play later in life
The fairytales are better for upbringing
that's pretty much my take on it. just like zimmerman himself and the keystone kops and the state attorney who drove down to make sure the killer did not get arrested, they don't think a 17-year-old black boy is hardly even worth the bullet it took to kill him. but they can't say that straight up so they engage in all manner of spin. trouble is it's not working because the facts, those pesky things, are simply not on their side.
jaysunb
(11,856 posts)fascisthunter
(29,381 posts)NOLALady
(4,003 posts)I have always believed they were pretending. I find it hard to believe that anyone actually believes that a person's skin color and/or heritage has anything to do with their ability to learn, their morals, work ethic, etc.
They have to pretend that they believe this crap to keep their white privilege.
I'm certain it's an act. I have a hard time believing that anyone is that stupid.
southernyankeebelle
(11,304 posts)automatically are guilty. I will never understand people like that. We have a big hugh population of African-americans going in the military to fight for their freedoms and they can't walk down a street.
I pray that the Martin family will get their justice. This isn't fair what is going on. At least arrest Zimmerman and let it go through the courts system.
They need to get rid of the law that allows people to use this law as a defense.
randr
(12,412 posts)will truly be tested someday when the roles are reversed.
A minority person will one day feel threatened by a redneck and take appropriate action according to the law. Someone may assume a white redneck to be armed and dangerous, a good assumption, and just blow them away as a precaution.
AndyTiedye
(23,500 posts)If it had been Trayvon with the gun and Zimmerman dead on the street, the headlines would have been something like:
"Gunman Shot Dead by SWAT Team after Murdering Neighborhood Watch Captain"
Ecumenist
(6,086 posts)dramatic when I said that had the roles and colors been reversed, TRAYVON would have NEVER MADE IT TO THE STATION ALIVE!! The reason I can say this is because it's happened OVER AND OVER AND OVER but usually doesn't see the light of day. Had the SELF-APPOINTED "watch captain" been black and the victim white. well= SAME OUTCOME! He just would have been arrested first but they would still be a better than average chance that he would not make it to the trial alive AND if he did, he would DEFINITELY get death penalty.
BiggJawn
(23,051 posts)You work with racists.
If the races were reversed, they'd be calling for Zimmerman to be hanged from a tree and have the trial later.
The Tea Party has made it chic to be a Racist again, not that it ever really went away and the Martin shooting has pretty much dropped the requirement for code words and dog whistles.
I'm done giving people a benefit of a doubt. They don't dislike Obama because of policy differences, they don't like him because he's BLACK, one of the "Blah People", and a "nig-".
And people actually debate whether Ron Paul's hypothetical store owner saying he doesn't have to serve Blacks in his store or not scenario has any credence?
This country is really starting to disgust me.
barbtries
(28,798 posts)that Trayvon was walking in his own neighborhood...would they chase down kids walking in their own neighborhood?
it's racism. not very complex at all imo. i hope this is its death throes, and i believe that the haters and the racists are steadily becoming more rare, and those of us who value all human life and respect it on its face are becoming ever more numerous.
it just sucks that so many people are lining up on the racist side of this argument. discouraging. Trayvon was murdered and his killer has still not been arrested. that is just plain bullshit!
Alcibiades
(5,061 posts)Exact same garbage we have seen in the south for 400 years: black victim, white criminal, therefore the victim must really be a criminal and the criminal must really be a hero.
These people are more racist that George Wallace.
That being said, I live in Durham, and, to my chagrin, was wrong about the Duke Lacrosse case. Nonetheless, I think we have a better handle on the facts than we did at this point in that case, though I do think folks do need to exercise some caution.
In this case, though, everything points to Zimmerman being an extremely well-connected, troubled young man with paranoid fantasties of heroism who acted them out on an unarmed boy.
EV_Ares
(6,587 posts)want to feel that way. This is not the country I grew up in anymore. I am tired of the constant political fighting and these people are willing to take this country down or you and me strictly for their own ideology. I am sorry, I know you can say it is on both sides but the people I know on the right are not into compromise, listening to other peoples' points of view or anything that is out of their line of beliefs. I see it as mostly a right-wing christian thing.
That is what is happening here, they listen to media such as fox news, Palin, Limbaugh, Beck, Hannity who feeds them exactly what they want to hear and there you go, the truth doesn't matter to them.
Just a thought.
mainer
(12,022 posts)Surely the Zimmerman defenders understand that.
bigtree
(85,996 posts). . . doesn't it?
To presume that there was justification for what Zimmerman did, there has to be an assumption that there was something equally pernicious that Trayvon was doing. That's where these assumptions come in which are based on stereotypes about black youth that African Americans have been subject to for decades. The significance of that is the long history of police overreaction and abuses toward members of the black community which has been presumed to be based on these same negative stereotypes of black males.
Zimmerman was certainly an 'aggressive gunman, but the fact that he was acting in a self-appointed role as an arbiter of order in his neighborhood has draw others to identify his actions with their own determination that it's just fine and proper to make these stereotypical judgments in defense against the perceived danger from these figures; these images; these black youth that they readily associate with crime and violence.
To accept that it is understandable to assume this black youth was the aggressor in this incident is a precursor to a defense of Zimmerman. It's just too familiar to many of us to disassociate this incident from the racial preconceptions which have plagued the African-American community for decades.
BeHereNow
(17,162 posts)Great contribution bigtree.
BHN
spanone
(135,841 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)He was white, a drug addict, and by all accounts a thug. People kept posting under the local news site today that they imagined it was someone coming in from "black neighborhoods". Bystanders asked the police if he was black and breathed a sigh of relief to find out that it wasn't a black person because they were praying that the flames of racial prejudice didn't get flamed. STILL, people tried to flame them without knowing the facts on the internet and without knowing what happened in the area.
They assumed the man was black, some people were frightened that he was black, and no one bothered to question whether he had a record for meth possession a mile long, fled from police with a gun in his hand from a motel known for drug trafficking and prostitution, but hasn't been shut down for who knows what reason, before they started getting scared that "OMG, they are going to think our town is like Sanford, FL because we live in the south!".
Think about that for a few minutes.
Sarah Ibarruri
(21,043 posts)Aerows
(39,961 posts)And I will say with pride that my town doesn't have a reputation for racism. It scared us to death as residents when all of these people started weighing in on a LOCAL damn news channel like they knew what went on in our community. On the whole, Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, and Cajuns are rather frightened of these people trying to make something out of a meth addict that fled from a motel with a gun into an "incident". The only incident that happened here was a meth addict waved a gun in the face of decent people, then met his end when he waved it in the face of police.
He was white, he was crazed on meth, and that is sad enough.
The police who shot him, were they black, white or both?
Aerows
(39,961 posts)NOLALady
(4,003 posts)I simply have not heard of the incident. I don't watch TV.
It was just a question.
Sorry.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)I'm kind of shaken up by this incident for various reasons, and I apologize if I got short with you.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)It really was an open and shut case, no racism whatsoever involved, except the people who tried to inject it into the situation. I can only assume they are people that don't live anywhere near here and were trying to get their rocks of rejoicing that a black person got shot, only to find out it was white meth addict that got what he was obviously looking for when aiming a pistol at police officers (one was black, two were white).
Kablooie
(18,634 posts)Looks like we may be commemorating it with another set of riots if they don't get their act together soon.
NICO9000
(970 posts)4/29/92. I live in L.A. and I remember it like it was yesterday. Definitely one of the strangest three days I've ever experienced.
Kablooie
(18,634 posts)By gadfreys! You're right.
I must come out from under my rock more often.
BlueIris
(29,135 posts)Pardon my ignorance, I was in 7th and 8th grade during the Rodney King attack/trial. I don't recall hearing anyone defend the attackers. That could be because I was raised by sane people who wouldn't defend police brutality, but still...Rodney King's attackers had defenders?
bigtree
(85,996 posts). . . both in the media and in public.
Hannity's first big-city success in talk radio came on Atlanta's WGST-AM, where by all accounts he was no less confrontational than in California. African-American clergy groups, according to the Atlanta Journal and Constitution (9/15/95), charged WGST with spreading hatred on the airwaves, specifically citing Hannity's show. The paper reported (3/27/96) on Hannity's campaign to get "Oscar attendees to wear blue ribbons, in support of the L.A. police officers who beat Rodney King."
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1158
And thanks for that link.
MADem
(135,425 posts)People were saying "Oh, he has a record a mile long, he's high on coke and crazy, don't you know, 'those people' on coke don't know their own strength, weren't the police 'good' to not shoot him and just beat him down instead, he was 'resisting' and those poor police 'had to do it' even though they didn't want to..."
I was unable to reconcile the video with that kind of bullshit excuse. I wasn't living in USA at the time, so I didn't see the video in regular rotation like people did here, but two or three times was enough. I was horrified. How could anyone do that and live with themselves?
byronius
(7,395 posts)Good on you for being strong enough to try. I'd like to, but I've been too angry since 2000. I lose my temper way too fast on these matters, so I just tend to walk away.
Whenever I get remotely close to the Reality Of Mordor, my fight or flight response kicks in. I wish I could be more like Obama, or Randi Rhodes. I have no patience with that stuff, none, zero.
Good on you for making the attempt.
And your post is dead on.
Zax2me
(2,515 posts)marshall gaines
(347 posts)Very well thought out analysis of this current situation and what it represents as a culture issue. america has never really dealt with its racial problems in a substantial and realistic manner. It is a sad picture of a great divide.
Pakid
(478 posts)I have met more than my share of them in the course of my life and everyone of them is just plain hateful. I no longer put up with them if they run their mouth at me all I can say is look out because I am going to tell them what I think of them and their bull. That is the only way to deal with right-wing nuts. Now people like this tend to stay away from me because I have told enough of them off that the word has gotten around and that is a good thing
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)WTF, since when does anyone have the right to kick someone out of a public place for no reason? He didn't do anything. He isn't even alleged to have done anything.
Wait Wut
(8,492 posts)I notice you're from Maryland, a blue state. I'm from Arizona...a red state.
Your experiences are different than mine. I've noticed a majority of people here are on the side of Trayvon. While they cling to their guns and are terrified we're going to take them away, they think there's an obvious coverup. I'm not saying all Arizonans believe this, just the ones I've talked to. Excluding my family, almost all are Republicans. There is a "confusion" factor, however. My close friends and acquaintances are good people. None have any racial bias. Most were against SB1070, believe in women's rights, education, don't believe that corporations are people, etc., etc. In other words, in any other state they'd probably feel comfortable being Democrats. But, there are Conservative making comments online that agree that there is a coverup (regular posters on our local site, a very, very Conservative area). I wasn't living here during the Rodney King incident, so I can't make the comparison.
I've also noticed that those that initially believe that Zimmerman is being falsely accused are fairly easily convinced otherwise, or at least allow that shred of doubt to take hold, once they're presented with arguments they don't see/read/hear on right-wing sites.
I am in NO way doubting you! I've read similar stories to yours from others throughout the country. I admit I know very little about the political and populace makeup of Maryland. I'm just curious and concerned about the regional differences of opinion. While some on both sides seem to want to make this political, I don't think it's working out that way in general opinions. I'm shocked at how many Republicans are recognizing the injustice in this tragedy, and sickened by how many Dems are either silent or hinting that "maybe" Zimmerman is telling the truth.
I guess we shouldn't be concentrating on all of this, though. We should be focusing on bringing justice to the Martin family.
bigtree
(85,996 posts)In our assessments of this incident there seems to me to have been a suspension of their suspension of disbelief for many black Americans that we had turned some significant corner in our relationships with white Americans. What I think we've found is that there are still negative perceptions and assumptions about our black community which have not been ameliorated by all of the positive successes, accomplishments, and contributions of African Americans in this country; clearly evident and acknowledged by most of us in the black community.
Further aggravating those racial relationships are police and justice systems around the nation which have not been as responsive and proactive as they could about addressing the inequities in the administration of justice and the outright abuses in the system toward black individuals and the communities as well.
This incident with Trayvon and Zimmerman has brought that angst and concern into focus for our community and there's a sense that we can resolve or address some of the injustices we face -- which are remarkably similar to this incident and to the system's response -- by demanding a more thorough investigation and disposition of this incident than the baffling course this case has taken so far.
I'm certain that there won't be that separation and solitary focus on this Davis case that you want -- apart from the debates on all of these issues of race, culture, and attitudes -- because these issues of use of force, profiling, and overall justice for black defendants and victims, have been festering and multiplying in the decades leading up to this event.
At the root of this incident and the concerns raised around it is the issue of accountability -- for the courts; for the police dept.; for the defendant; for legislators who are responsible for these 'stand your ground' laws. If this tragedy is to have any significant meaning, it will come from the activism surrounding it which challenges the system; challenges our perceptions of each other; and challenges these absurd gun laws.
Skittles
(153,164 posts)I was discussing it with a coworker - he said Zimmerman pursued "the type of person most likely to commit a crime" - and here is the kicker - for the most part, this coworker is a SOLID DEMOCRAT. WTF.
ScottLand
(2,485 posts)I'm fortunate enough to be among people who see it the way I do.
Rhiannon12866
(205,444 posts)Or is totally ignoring the facts we've been given. The more I hear, the worse it gets, and it sounded like there was something seriously wrong with this story from the very beginning. However, it sounds like the truth is beginning to come out, and it's heartbreaking, but the eyes of the nation are on this case, so it can't be hidden or ignored.
I am one of those conservative "lurkers" ( no I am not a freeper and CERTAINLY not some stormfront ass... I post on another board with both conservatives and liberals )... I know I am not welcome and that the rules pretty much get me banned for being a conservative.
Again I know this... But I am obviously outnumbered and would hope an exception would be made. I have no desire to disrupt or cause problems with this community and would only hope to have discussions just every now and then ( hey at least I'm not trying to pretend to be a liberal just to be a jerk ).
I lurk but I also really enjoy this site... I don't want to post to try and change/convert anyone but sometimes I would love to jump into a conversation like this one (maybe start a page devoted to conservative idiots like me?... Maybe only let us post there if it is a concern?)
Oh well I'm sure I will be banned because of who I am but I will still lurk and truly enjoy the conversations that go on here even if I am not permitted to take part in them.
I'm truly sorry for wasting your time and completely understand sending me to the trash heap.
TBF
(32,062 posts)someone? Just curious. Democratic Underground is for folks who support democrats, and support our president. If you're wavering on that and are considering voting for the president even though you're generally "conservative" that would be interesting to know. Folks cross-over every election so just giving you the opportunity to talk about that if you are having doubts about how you are voting this time.
With this thread in particular what bothers me the most is the division taking place on both sides... There are obviously plenty of reasons for conservative and liberals to be devided... This one, however, bother me more than others (which is why I actually made this account).
Of all the things there are to fight about the way this tragedy has turned out is truly sad to me. I am no Zimmerman defender ( in fact with what we all think we know I would side against him )... I just hate that this has turned from a tragedy to and "us against them" scenario.
Oh well like I said I know I am not welcome here... This subject just spurned me to talk.
Also as far as trying to "change someones mind" I have no plans of pursuing such a route here... That would be wrong and disrespectful to this community. I simply want to add my 2 cents every now and then.
Again thank you for responding.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Why do you think "us against them" is part of the reaction to this killing?
I mean black vs white and conservative vs liberal... Everyone on both sides jumped into that rediculous fight the second it hit the news. It became less about the case and more about how we could score political points. The death was lost in a storm in my opinion.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)I think a lot of the anger is about. And trying to fix that.
Not just the death, but the way it happened and the way the aftermath was dealt with, or rather ignored. Does that make any sense to you?
hootinholler
(26,449 posts)Yes we are a progressive site, but we do have some conservative democrats here as well.
If you are generally polite and not trash talking Democratic candidates (and know how to use democrat and democratic properly) or advocating third party candidates, or otherwise breaking the terms off service, then you should be ok.
Welcome to DU and stop reminding people that you should not be posting here
Jigs
(15 posts)I have no desire to disrupt or fight... And never will.
Ps - even though I am on the opposit spectrum of you folks I still think you guys are pretty damn cool.