General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsYes, really, all men
Yes, all men.
My dad was a great man. He taught me to seek rather than shirk responsibility.
Yes. All men. Real men who deserve the name acknowledge the problem and address it. All men. You, me, everyone.
Major Nikon
(36,877 posts)And beyond talking about it, what do you propose to do to address it?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)I have no specific solutions beyond that, to be honest.
Major Nikon
(36,877 posts)What I will not do is accept responsibility for something I didn't do, participate in, or encourage others to do. Doesn't sound like being a "real man" to me.
Recursion
(56,582 posts)Interesting.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Major Nikon
(36,877 posts)el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)But if you acknowledge that you receive privileges based on your gender that gives you a step up in recognizing how those privileges might harm other people. You can see that things proceed justly; as it is difficult to work towards fixing a problem you don't see.
Bryant
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that he stole a little flag he was putting on car. it was a thrift store. he had gotten it at another store. and was missing with it in the parking lot when the owner came out all blustering.
son said, just cause he was a teenager the man accused him of theft.
i agreed. i told him that blacks experience it a zilion times worse. and that was just it. cause he was a teen.... only cause he was a teen.
did it take anything away from me as an adult to validate my sons feeling, legitimate feeling of unfairness that cause he was a teen he was treated poorly?
nope.
as a matter of fact, it was a lesson in empathy for the boy.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I remember the first time I was accused of shoplifting - was wearing a trenchcoat, so I think that marked me out as a criminal (when in reality I just had an overly romantic view of the 1930s Gangster/Detective movies).
Bryant
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)as i have said a zillion times and one. this is really not that hard. and assuredly, totally painless. lol. really
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)I wish I had encountered it that way, rather than the way I did encounter it. I might have caught on a lot quicker.
Bryant
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)he was the one being bigoted against cause he was white male.
because you see. the person that was the teacher, in a learnable moment, was not that ... oh, what? gentle? easy? i dunno.
and i told that son. that we have a responsibility to look from the others eyes. and yes. maybe that person is angry. and MAYBE we can understand that anger. cause when i have a man create a rape porn scenario for ME,.... that makes me angry. i may not be as gentle, easy.... whatever.
so. maybe, we can be a bit patient, when an oppressed is angry.
again.
i do not feel, and i refuse to allow it to be, hard. easy works better for me.
and i feel those around me i love so.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)to get the point across. If you are being presented this idea by someone who cares about you, than you don't end up spending nearly as much time on the "but I'm not a bad person" phase of the discussion.
I came across it in college with some pretty nice people for the most part, but very competitive and a bit insecure (as tends to happen to college students (certainly it was that way with me)); it's hard to analyze a conversation that took place many years ago, but I suspect the point was not to educate or to help someone you love learn; the point was to "win" the argument. There's few things a college student likes more than seizing the moral high ground.
But water under the bridge; i've certainly learned a lot since then.
Bryant
Major Nikon
(36,877 posts)Which is unlike other privileged bases which have a distinct shit end of the stick with few or no privileges associated with being on that end. Those who spend an inordinate amount of time focusing on gender privilege don't seem to spend as much time acknowledging the privilege associated with the other side of that coin or all the other privileges associated with everything else. One should always promote equality in opportunity in all things, but that has a lot more to do with being a 'real human' and less about being a 'real man'.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)In individual situations women or minorities might receive some small privileges not available to white males. Such situations are however trivial when you compare it to, say, hiring practices or assumptions made about individuals.
Bryant
Major Nikon
(36,877 posts)Living 5 years longer, having the greatest educational attainment, and facing the least chance of being profiled by the cops comes to mind as just a few examples, which ironically are some of the exact same lack of privileges associated with being non-white and don't seem so trivial in that context.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)or when they are turned away from a job because "they just wouldn't fit in."
Bryant
Starry Messenger
(32,374 posts)Bank it.
Major Nikon
(36,877 posts)http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/Women_in_America.pdf
Major Nikon
(36,877 posts)http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/Women_in_America.pdf
You know that women make 77 cents to every mans dollar line youve heard a hundred times? Its not true.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gender_pay_gap_the_familiar_line_that_women_make_77_cents_to_every_man_s.html
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)It acknowledges that woman make less then men - 87% or 91% (the 91% comes from cutting out union jobs, which seems like an odd choice to me) - but then blames the women for making less then men.
Bryant
Major Nikon
(36,877 posts)http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/02/graduating-to-a-pay-gap-the-earnings-of-women-and-men-one-year-after-college-graduation.pdf
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Obviously you should seek out the best job possible, and take steps to do so - that doesn't mean though that there aren't pay disparities between men and women doing the same work.
Bryant
Major Nikon
(36,877 posts)That's why we have civil rights laws and means of redress for people in that situation. But the claim that the 20% raw difference between weekly earnings can be attributed to pay disparities between men and women doing the same work is wrong and misleading.
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Is that accurate? or am I misreading you?
Bryant
Major Nikon
(36,877 posts)There are many factors which attribute to the pay gap. Most of those involve family obligations and spending more time in non-income generating activities. So do I blame women for choosing to spend more time taking care of the family as opposed to punching a time clock? Absolutely not. To do so would undervalue women for something I believe has a very high value, arguably more so than income generating activities.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)jsut say no. i taught my sons, the reason in the past and why now it should be no more. progression. and ya know.... his generation is working it out.
so fuggin hard.....
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Gender equality is only one potential issue of many to focus on.
Major Nikon
(36,877 posts)And all of us do actually contribute to many of the ills of society to one degree or another. None of this is unique to men.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)derail derail derail.
rock
(13,218 posts)Now, how about a verb (or even a full predicate)?
bearssoapbox
(1,408 posts)Post what you feel.
(As long as it doesn't violate TOS)
I liked the post.
Borchkins
(725 posts)He raised one just like him, my brother. I married another one just like him. I am raising two more. I wish it was enough.
B
pintobean
(18,101 posts)Nice.
It would be great to know what you're talking about.
sorefeet
(1,241 posts)Honesty is what real men do. If there is a problem they fix it, now. Real men don't shirk a problem no matter who's it is. It is my responsibility to help who ever needs it.
bloom
(11,636 posts)sorefeet
(1,241 posts)and it goes right over the heads of the rest.
Silent3
(15,909 posts)As if taking responsibility is a particularly manly trait, rather than simply a good trait for any adult human, a trait that's neither especially masculine or feminine in character?
Do men hold an extra degree of responsibility for the way other men behave? If so, is it more or less than any extra responsibility that redheads should assume for the way other redheads behave?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)it is ALL that i am too. you know. the good stuff
honorable, strong, responsible, caring, balanced, .... yada yada.
me too.
what is in the "manhood" and lord tell me what "feminine" is cause i am lost on that one.
now, i do believe that it is important for me to speak up, as a woman, with issue women need to address with ourselves. i do believe that as a woman, i have a job... a responsibility, and ya, maybe even greater than the injured party.
Bonx
(2,143 posts)Major Nikon
(36,877 posts)Imagine the reception if someone started a thread schooling all females in what they should be doing to be a "real woman".
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)What is the subject here?
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)RobertEarl
(13,685 posts)To accept responsibility.
It is taught in society as a whole, but individuals can be bad examples of the practice.
Basic animal instinct has a responsibility code that is, through life, reinforced by mothers, fathers and then society as the animal grows older.
Male animals are expected to perform in a certain manner. Alpha males act first on instinct, while exhibiting what they have learned in order to hold the position.
The best alpha males are those that know the code and practice responsibility for the family.