The Isla Vista shooter COULD have gotten a girlfriend

[NickB79]

This bull he put out on Youtube is precisely that, bull. I don't believe for a second the Isla Vista shooter couldn't find a girlfriend. ANYONE can find a girlfriend, even the socially awkward (hell, I'm married with a 4-yr old daughter). IMO, his problem was he was so obsessed with image that he couldn't find a girlfriend that fit his idea of what he felt he was entitled to. One of his manifesto entries stated he refused to get a retail job like his mother wanted because he felt he was destined for something more. It appears he felt the same about his love life. He wanted a bombshell of a woman riding in his shiny BMW because, to him, the woman was just another status symbol. No way was he gonna roll with a plus-sized woman, or a nerdy woman, by his side.

So when all these PUA/MRA Roochbags start talking about "there will be more shootings unless you give us sex", they're full of shit.

The only way they'd be happy is if we started stocking our cities with cloned, lobotomized supermodels, free for the taking. Because they're not after just sex. They're so full of themselves that they can't see that there is more to the definition of beauty than a pretty face and a nice body.

Before Isla Vista, I had no idea what the PUA/MRA movement even was. Looking back, I now see that some of my closest friends in college were just like this guy, self-obsessed pretty boys only looking to put another notch on their bedposts, and it makes me so very sad that I didn't see it sooner. This shooting has given me even more impetus to raise my daughter to be a strong, intelligent, independent young woman who will never have to deal with shit like these guys sling.

Sorry for venting

[factsarenotfair]

1. Plentyoffish (pof.com) works for a LOT of people.

There are three members of my extended family who found a mate they are now living with on Plenty of Fish. They did have to date a few people to find just the right one.

[Drale]

126. That's were I found my fiance /nt

[factsarenotfair]

135. Nice! Congratulations!

[shenmue]

2. Right you are

[upaloopa]

3. I don't get how they think we are going to give them sex

It isn't any of our responcibility to see to it that evey guy has sex.

[winter is coming]

97. The one that's always mystified me...

is guys who think it's cool to insult some other guy by calling him a cocksucker, but then complain their girlfriends don't blow them often enough.

[redqueen]

4. "they can't see that there is more to the definition of beauty than a pretty face and a nice body"

This mindset is the result of the ubiquitous sexual objectification of women. Yes, it is actually harmful.

[NickB79]

12. I remember vividly the first time my daughter told me she needed a new dress

Because it was a "princess dress" and she wouldn't look beautiful if she didn't have such a dress to wear. She was barely 3 years old.

I actually started to tear up as I hugged her and told her she was always beautiful, no matter what clothes she wore.

It was at that point I realized just how much work I have ahead of me, to ensure she grows up into the strong woman I know she can be.

[redqueen]

14. Good luck. You'll need it.

Around puberty she will start picking up on messages from society in a very big way. Around this same time, the opinions and ideas her friends share with her will start to take on more importance.

I recommend the book Reviving Ophelia. It is an excellent resource for parents of girls.

[NickB79]

20. Thank you! nt

[YarnAddict]

27. I think it happens long before puberty now.

[redqueen]

58. Sadly, you are right

in the best case scenario it starts around 11-13.

But yeah, I've seen some very unlucky girls.

[YarnAddict]

59. I only had sons

both grown now, but I saw what my niece went through with the peer pressure she endured. Started in Kindergarten.

[redqueen]

63. Sexual harassment starts in grade school as well.

It is in adolescence though, that the shit shifts into high gear. That's when girls start developing eating disorders, experiencing depression, etc.

[YarnAddict]

65. As much as I would have loved going prom dress shopping

I really feel like I was soooooooooo much better off having boys. I feel like I would not have been up to the challenge.

[n2doc]

13. Probably didn't help that his Father had a hobby of taking nudie pics

http://www.showbiz411.com/2014/05/25/exclusive-hunger-games-killers-dad-sells-art-photos-of-womens-behinds

(NSFW images at link)

[redqueen]

16. Indeed it wouldn't.

He got the message early that women were sex objects.

Just as the children of racists learn early that minorities are less than.

[Number23]

98. Absolutely right. Which is why we have four year olds worried about "getting fat" as if the

ONLY thing they have to contribute to the whole damned world is their appearance. It is sickening and debilitating.

[redqueen]

106. It truly is. I also find it sickening that the very concept is mocked and ridiculed

by self-described progressives.

[dawg]

5. You're not wrong.

The guy was just too young and too disturbed to realize that.

[MohRokTah]

6. I'm also not convinced he meets the legal definition of insanity.

His youtube videos all indicate he was aware of what he was about to do, knew it was wrong, but was going to do it any way.

I just about any state, that makes him legally responsible for his actions. Had he survived, there is no way an insanity plea could have won.

[immoderate]

30. Yes, but committing mass murder is not exactly an indicator of stability...

... if you know what I mean.

He can't say "I knew it was wrong, and I did it anyway, therefore I'm sane."

--imm

[pnwmom]

43. You can't know that. One report says he was hearing voices. Depending on what he was hearing,

a jury could have accepted an insanity plea.

We won't ever know.

[LisaL]

56. That was based on anonymous source to radar online.

I don't think most people would consider that credible.
I don't believe this guy was anywhere near legally insane.

[pnwmom]

62. That's your opinion. But what is fact is that he was being prescribed an anti-psychotic,

and he refused to take it.

[LisaL]

75. That medication has multiple uses, which you know full well.

Since it was discussed already.
One of the uses is autistic persons with behavioral issues.

[pnwmom]

89. As you know, he was never actually diagnosed

with autism, and he didn't begin therapy until he was 8. His parents only suspected autism. So it is more likely that his doctors finally prescribed an anti-psychotic because he was exhibiting psychotic symptoms.

But there is a large overlap between the social cognition symptoms of autism and of pre-schizophrenia. Given that no doctor ever diagnosed him with autism, and his final acts which were much more in keeping with paranoid schizophrenia, it is more likely that he had pre-schizophrenia all along -- or perhaps a combination of autism and schizophrenia, because co-morbidity can exist.

Paranoid schizophrenia is less likely to affect logic and thinking and planning than other forms of schizophrenia. So his long project in the service of his delusion of grandeur doesn't rule out paranoid schizophrenia at all.

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/paranoid-schizophrenia/basics/symptoms/con-20029040

Signs and symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia may include:

Auditory hallucinations, such as hearing voices
Delusions, such as believing a co-worker wants to poison you
Anxiety
Anger
Emotional distance
Violence
Argumentativeness
Self-important or condescending manner
Suicidal thoughts and behavior
With paranoid schizophrenia, you're less likely to be affected by mood problems or problems with thinking, concentration and attention.

Key symptoms

Delusions and hallucinations are the symptoms that make paranoid schizophrenia most distinct from other types of schizophrenia.

Delusions. In paranoid schizophrenia, a common delusion is that you're being singled out for harm. For instance, you may believe that the government is monitoring every move you make or that a co-worker is poisoning your lunch. You may also have delusions of grandeur — the belief that you can fly, that you're famous or that you have a relationship with a famous person, for example. You hold on to these false beliefs despite evidence to the contrary. Delusions can result in aggression or violence if you believe you must act in self-defense against those who want to harm you.

Auditory hallucinations. An auditory hallucination is the perception of sound — usually voices — that no one else hears. The sounds may be a single voice or many voices. These voices may talk either to you or to each other. The voices are usually unpleasant. They may make ongoing criticisms of what you're thinking or doing, or make cruel comments about your real or imagined faults. Voices may also command you to do things that can be harmful to yourself or to others. When you have paranoid schizophrenia, these voices seem real. You may talk to or shout at the voices.

[LisaL]

90. Actually, that same radar online has some of the divorce documents.

He was diagnosed as a highly functioning autistic child.

[Laelth]

7. Men and women regret different things.

Here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/02/sexual-regrets-differ-men-and-women_n_4372793.html

These differences appear to be hard-wired and instinctual. Your "closest friends in college" seem typical if these survey results are to be believed.

-Laelth

[uppityperson]

25. "The researchers posit that these differences are evolutionary". Posit=assume as a fact

Assume as a fact; put forward as a basis of argument.

Not proven but assumed.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/posit

pos·it verb \ˈpä-zət\
: to suggest (something, such as an idea or theory) especially in order to start a discussion

Full Definition of POSIT

transitive verb
1
: to dispose or set firmly : fix
2
: to assume or affirm the existence of : postulate
3
: to propose as an explanation :

[YarnAddict]

8. Part of the problem is that

he avoided situations where he could meet women. When he started high school, he chose to go to an all male school for at least part of a year. After that, he went to a school that he only had to attend for a couple of hours a day. When he started college he dropped every class within a few weeks at the most--usually when he saw girls talking to guys other than himself. I don't know what how he expected to meet anyone. Did he think women were going to walk up to him on the street and hit on him?

[seaglass]

29. Yes that is exactly it. He never wrote about approaching a woman and actually being turned down and

I think he never did. In his manifesto he mentioned saying Hi to a woman once and smiling at another. That was about it.

One of the family spokespeople said they knew Rodger very well, that he was intensely quiet and withdrawn and he said he did not know who that person was in the videos.

[YarnAddict]

33. My son and I both read the manifesto

At first, some of it was laugh-out-loud funny, because the MINOR slights that he blew out of proportion and described as varying degrees of traumatic were common to everyone, but the way he dealt with them clearly was not. Very suddenly, within the last few pages, it turned chilling. It was horrifying.

I went from feeling somewhat sorry for him--an awkward, socially inept child that didn't seem to have anyone to guide him through the travails of young relationships--to seeing him as the cold blooded, hate filled monster he turned out to be.

[woolldog]

102. The manifesto reminded me of

Dostoyevsky's main character in Notes from the Underground, the way he blew the tiniest thing out of proportion.

[Orsino]

9. I think that the verb "get" was part of the shooter's problem.

He seems to have had a sense of entitlement, and/or to have subscribed to cargo-cultism when it came to relationships with women. He thought he had done more than was required to "get" a woman, and at the end of his life was trying to collect on an imagined debt.

[Silent3]

10. I've not watched the video, but getting a girlfriend isn't as easy for some people...

...as other people sometimes think, even when a person isn't expecting a supermodel.

I was well into being 20 years old and desperate not to turn 21 while still a virgin the first time I had sex.

I was not by far holding out for a supermodel, had no giant ego problem about what I "deserved", wasn't looking for a status symbol, or any of that.

In fact, one of the most emotionally painful things to have to hear from other people was that thing I found so very difficult was supposedly really easy. That made my failure to achieve this supposedly easy thing even more humiliating.

[Schema Thing]

11. Not necessarily. He may well have, probably did, turn anyone off immediately.

His sickness may have been just as apparent as if it had been a physical deformity.

[stevenleser]

18. Exactly what I was going to say. It would be quite easy to repel everyone you meet

Taken as an acting exercise, I'm pretty sure just about any of us could come up with a toxic personality that would send anyone who comes within earshot running in the opposite direction. Being angry and mean all the time is probably enough but we could add things like creepy and needy to it.

Now imagine that worst kind of toxic personality was this guy's real personality. On top of that, from his manifesto, he seemed to only want the hot blonde girls/women around and expected them, i.e. women who can probably be with anyone they want to be with, to fall to the ground at his feet and worship him with a personality like that. The chances of one of them wanting to make the effort to see if there was a human being under all of that toxic mess is pretty low and can you blame them? Who would want to do that?

I think someone with a horrific physical deformity and a nice personality would have it considerably easier.

[bettyellen]

23. He assumed every woman he saw was fucking the man next to her- and that POV shows

Exactly how and what he thought about all women. I have found a decent amount of immature men with the same POV over the years. At college age though, some women wouldn't even notice or mind that initially.
He might have even been able to hide his illness for a while, but he was small and young looking, and had no confidence. If he was looking for an average girl, he probably would have done okay. But he had a type - the most popular blondes. So, he was shit out of luck.

[Hekate]

46. "This Roger guy emits warning signals like a rotating radar antenna": MineralMan

I thought Mineral Man captured it very well, here --> http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4997121

I can't say it better.

[Rex]

15. Mental illness, a gun and easy targets.

Sexual frustration was just an excuse.

[hopemountain]

17. do NOT frickin' apologize for venting.

this should be part of our rallying cry to stop the misogyny:
"This shooting has given me even more impetus to raise my daughter to be a strong, intelligent, independent young woman who will never have to deal with shit like these guys sling"

in addition, he may have been considered by some to be mentally ill or unstable ~ but in my world, he was possessed by diabolic evil.

[deutsey]

19. Based on his so-called manifesto

he seemed to believe that everyone (especially the kind of women he was so fixated on) should simply recognize and respond to his allegedly self-evident "magnificence." He seemed to think that he shouldn't have to do anything but just exist.

He wrote something about hanging out at a popular campus pizza place for three hours and, to his dismay, not ONE pretty woman came over to him. Why, they ignored him, even.

I think it's very revealing how envious he was of the actor he saw at a Hollywood party with fawning people flocking around him.

[Brickbat]

21. He didn't want a girlfriend.

He wanted a possession, an accomplishment, a conquered territory, a piece of property.

[LordGlenconner]

22. I read a lot of his manifesto

And watched most of the videos he posted on YouTube. My take is that he is someone who was grappling with confusion about his own sexuality. I don't think it was all about "I can't get laid so I'm going to go on a killing spree". There are a lot of moving parts here.

[Proud Public Servant]

24. Got some bad news for ya, buddy

Last edited Tue May 27, 2014, 04:37 PM - Edit history (1)

This shooting has given me even more impetus to raise my daughter to be a strong, intelligent, independent young woman who will never have to deal with shit like these guys sling.

I did that. My daughter is, in fact, a strong, intelligent, independent young woman. Graduated top of her class, Phi Beta Kappa. Landed a job almost immediately, been promoted twice in 18 months. Researches, blogs, and tweets for a major progressive outlet; I'm sure there are people on DU who read her and/or follow her on Twitter. Occasionally appears as a guest on MSNBC. Makes more, at age 24, than the average American household. A smart, opinionated, strong feminist with a wicked sense of humor -- I couldn't be prouder.

And you know how often she has to "deal with shit like these guys sling"? Every day. Every fucking day. And it breaks my heart.

Because they're everywhere. No, they don't all write/film manifestos and shoot up campuses. But that's just the final extreme of a broad sociological tendency. Read #YesAllWomen if you haven't yet. Read it, and weep.

By all means raise a strong, intelligent, independent young woman. But stop believing that that's the issue here. The problem is not that women aren't strong, intelligent, or independent -- some are, some aren't. The problem is men, period. To imagine that you can fix the problem by raising the "right" kind of daughter implicitly puts the onus on women to fix the problem. And that's the problem.

[AgingAmerican]

28. "The problem is men, period"

Well, I'm glad that's all cleared up...

[redqueen]

31. Oh so very, incredibly well said.

Wish I could rec posts.

[pnwmom]

45. True. But a strong daughter will be better able to handle the shit that gets thrown at her.

You're right that it's everywhere. A woman I know in her 50's recently left an executive position because of sexual harassment. (And is contemplating whether to sue.) It just never, never ends.

[Squinch]

48. Great post.

I sincerely believe that none of this will end until men change the way that men speak to each other.

You saying this gives me hope.

And I think you might be the first male that I have ever seen posting this here.

[renate]

125. well, I can see where your daughter gets her brilliance from!

"To imagine that you can fix the problem by raising the "right" kind of daughter implicitly puts the onus on women to fix the problem."



Very well said, and by the way, your daughter sounds amazing and it's lovely to see how proud you are of her.

[Proud Public Servant]

131. Thank you (and squinch and redqueen above you) for your kind words (NT)

[Lex]

133. "To imagine that you can fix the problem by raising the "right" kind of daughter . . ."

" . . . implicitly puts the onus on women to fix the problem."

Wow. So true.

[libnnc]

138. I love you.

And you're right. I probably do follow your daughter on Twitter.

[herding cats]

26. I don't think so.

If you read his manifesto you'll have noticed how angry he became in social situations when girls/women didn't approach him first and be awed by his amazing self. He would sit someplace, or go out walking and expected females to be drawn to him. When they didn't do as his mind told him they should he became enraged at the whole gender, blaming them for his inability to interact with others. It's kind of hard to meet someone when you're busy freaking the shit out of them with your rage for not falling at your feet. That goes beyond being socially awkward.

He had a lot of problems, but the fact that he didn't have a girlfriend was a symptom, and not the cause of his issues. His mind was sick, and twisted reality around like a pretzel to find something, anything, to blame for what was wrong with him. Nothing was ever his fault at the end. He had rationalized away every thing not right with him by blaming it on others.

One thing that really stood out to me was how he used the socially shy and awkward demeanor to lead the police off track when they came to check on him. He knew he would have his plans of a mass killing derailed if he didn't convince them he was harmless, so he used the very social skills he claimed not to possess to convince the police it was all a misunderstanding. When it came to protecting his plans his social instincts functioned fine.

He was a very sick person who didn't accept, or understand that there was anything wrong with him. It was always the fault of his family, his friends, or the girlfriends he never had and the men/boys they were dating. At least in his mind.

[treestar]

66. A woman couldn't expect men to simply come up to her because she's there

With a very good looking woman, there might be a lot of that. So his expectation there was crazy. He'd have to do something first, like become a rock star.

[herding cats]

80. He wasn't exactly what I would call an approachable person in the first place

I cannot imagine he gave off the warm and friendly "hi, I'm a nice guy you'd like to meet" vibe by his own description of himself. If anything a guy hurling insults at the men he was jealous of, tossing drinks at people and trying to push people off of a 10 ledge would scare the hell out of you.

To him he was always the victim in these situations. That's what made it so disturbing to read, he always twisted reality to make himself out to have been wronged by society. That's what he believed to he true.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

32. I'm not so sure. I understand and agree with your point, but

I suspect Rodgers' issues were so much more severely twisted that by the time he was in college he couldn't have gotten a girlfriend for all the tea in China. Specifically, he wanted a beautiful blonde woman - not really as a companion but as evidence of his desirability - and he was angry because none of these women showed any interest in him. But his "manifesto" suggests that as much as he desired such a woman he never actually approached any. He never even spoke to girls as a teenager, let alone asked them out. His sense that they were all rejecting him, and his anger at that perceived rejection, was all in his head. He never tried. And then, to magnify that problem, his self-induced sense of anger and rejection most likely made him eventually seem so weird and creepy that he probably would have been turned down - not only by the beautiful women he desired, but even the more ordinary ones - if he'd actually asked for a date. From his manifesto it sounds like he stared at women but wouldn't talk to them, which would creep anybody out.

Yes, he was a narcissistic asshole whose pathology was almost certainly compounded by the misogynistic influence of the PUA/MRA crowd, but at the same time I really believe he'd become so weird that his self-created creepy vibe might as well have been a force field that kept women away in droves.

[paulkienitz]

38. yes, failing to attract people is a vicious cycle

the less you manage to attract anyone, the more unattractive you become. Once someone's trapped in that, it can be mighty tough to break out. A lot of men -- more than most people ever would guess -- end up hitting forty or fifty with no romantic success. Fortunately, at that point, the playing field becomes a lot more even than it was in the prime of youth, as everybody starts learning that they can't be all that picky anymore.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

42. But those guys don't go out and shoot people.

[Tsiyu]

72. A lot of women also never find success in love

Women often expect the man to make the first move. When no man ever tries, it can be heartbreaking for women as well.

Feelings of not being desirable and of being rejected hit both sexes.

I know you're not saying this, but too many men appear to believe women don't also suffer from a lack of intimate relationships or a lack of knowing how to go about creating an intimate relationship.

Both genders can feel tragically left out, and I just want those men to understand this. It is not an exclusively male thing to lose out in love, not by a long shot.

And just as a man can believe his value is assessed by the woman in his life, so do women often feel 'incomplete" or like losers when they can't be the woman in a man's life.

[paulkienitz]

108. I think you'll find that group is like 80% men

And at the other end, the extreme bed-hoppers with 500+ hookups are also gonna be 80% men. (Not counting sex workers -- just those who actually want to live that way.)

Men seem to have a wider spread in some other areas too. Men own the majority of giant capital holdings, yet men are also more likely to be found at the very bottom of the economy as urban hunter-gatherers. I've even heard that IQ scores have a broader standard deviation for men than for women, though I can't vouch for that.

None of which has anything to do with this shooter. I'm with the OP -- the guy probably felt entitled to privilege.

[Tsiyu]

136. I think your figure is 80% in mens' heads and not reality

I hate to say it but your statement just shows how ---hm,how to put this kindly - 'distorted" some mens' thinking is regarding success in love. Did you pull that figure from your own gut feeling or what?

If we want to discuss issues and make any headway, we need to be sure we are using facts and not delusional or warped thinking.





According to the US census:


http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/cb12-ff18.html

Single Life

102 million

Number of unmarried people in America 18 and older in 2011. This group comprised 44.1 percent of all U.S. residents 18 and older.
Source: America's Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table A1.

53%

Percentage of unmarried U.S. residents 18 and older who were women in 2011; 47 percent were men.
Source: America's Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table A1.

62%

Percentage of unmarried U.S. residents 18 and older in 2011 who had never been married. Another 24 percent were divorced, and 14 percent were widowed.
Source: America's Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table A1

17 million

Number of unmarried U.S. residents 65 and older in 2011. These seniors comprised 16 percent of all unmarried people 18 and older.
Source: America's Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table A1

89

Number of unmarried men 18 and older for every 100 unmarried women in the United States in 2011.
Source: America's Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table A1

55 million

Number of households maintained by unmarried men and women in 2011. These households comprised 46 percent of households nationwide.
Source: America's Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table A2

33 million

Number of people who lived alone in 2011. They comprised 28 percent of all households, up from 17 percent in 1970.
Source: America's Families and Living Arrangements: 2011
<http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hh-fam/cps2011.html> Table H1 and HH-4

[paulkienitz]

34. I've also been taking my first look at PUA/MRA/MGTOW "red pill" ideas

and I notice that nobody seems willing to spell out what their mystical secret "red pill" insights actually are. They're clear what it's not -- feminism, in a word -- but nobody seems to quite agree what it is. It seems to be anything and everything that can be used to justify having less respect for women.

I wonder if racists will also start framing their race science -- excuse me, "human biodiversity" -- ideas as a secret insider knowledge available only to a select elite of superior individuals who have what it takes to face the truth. If it works for the misogyny crowd...

But this red pill stuff doesn't remind me of racism so much as of something like Al Qaeda, where people are recruited to violence through hate propaganda that gives them someone to blame for their lives. Except without the religious angle... of the "manosphere" stuff I've seen, the conservative Christian wing is the least offensive faction. Maybe a better analogy than Al Qaeda would be something like the antigovernment militia movement.

[stone space]

49. You might find this of "interest".

I wonder if racists will also start framing their race science -- excuse me, "human biodiversity" -- ideas as a secret insider knowledge available only to a select elite of superior individuals who have what it takes to face the truth. If it works for the misogyny crowd...

(It got hidden 5-2 after I alerted on it...yeah, two Jurors actually voted not to hide it)

http://www.discussionist.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=6620

[PatrynXX]

35. can vent but thats a bunch of BS

Hmm yes. Very easy. he had the looks etc problem is the bully type or the stereotype of good girls wanting bad guys might be ending. Oh she wants the bad guy so he can beat her up at night etc. Oh but he's a hunk. smh wake me up when this is over

[Half-Century Man]

36. Vent?

To me venting has more anger.
It seems more like a realization and formation of a stance.
Like all good stances, yours is firmly planted, balanced, and flexible.
Fight on

[geek tragedy]

37. he could not 'get' a girlfriend because he could not be a boyfriend nt

[Helen Borg]

39. What I found disgusting...

Was his obsession with "beautiful" and "blonde". I mean, if those are the things he wanted, he could have bought a realistic doll, right? Don't need a live person for that... What kind of a relationship can you have with a person who likes you because you are beautiful and blonde?

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

41. He wanted the beautiful blonde girlfriend as validation

for his "worth" as a man, not as a friend, lover and companion. A doll wouldn't have done it; you can't impress the other guys by dragging a doll around.

[hunter]

67. We'll have to wait for an Apple Computer Robot Sex Partner for that.

Then all the cool kids with wealthy parents can have the expensive car, the expensive robot girl, and all the sex upside down and any other way they can handle.

Who needs a girlfriend? All you other college guys with the Android girls? Losers.

The perfect "arm candy." Share her with your friends.

And damn, won't people envy you...

.


.


.


.


with horror, and because that's probably how it would be...

The perfect woman as an "object," the misogynist's dream.

But if we are lucky there will still be plenty of ordinary people enjoying one another's company, respecting one another, and even having enthusiastic consensual sex with one another as ordinary humans do.

[smallcat88]

40. Don't be sorry

Vent away!

[Paladin]

44. Good post. I think you captured what a lot of us are thinking. (nt)

[Hekate]

47. You are a gem nt

[JDPriestly]

50. Absolutely true. Feminists argue that he hated women.

But what he really hated was that the women he met and were not like his Hollywood beautiful woman image. That is what is disgusting. He also hated and killed his roommates. Maybe the whole thing about women was just an excuse to act out his anger.

[bettyellen]

81. No, he thought there were many gorgeous girls at school, and was unable to meet anyone on his own.

He also imagined that those gorgeous girls were fucking who ever they were standing or sitting next to. He was a fucking idiot fixated on women for only one reason, and hated them for not giving him what he wanted on a silver platter.

[Common Sense Party]

51. Meanwhile in Nigeria...

300 young girls are STILL missing after more than a moth, having been kidnapped and who knows what is happening to them.

Those boko haram a**holes could have taught this Rodger punk a thing or two. You want a woman? You just go and STEAL her--and nobody will lift a finger to stop you!

It's sad that it took U.S. media 3 weeks to begin to focus on the girls, and now that this overentitled punk killed 6 people, our media has pretty much forgotten the 300 children (and their families) who are suffering.

[Louisiana1976]

70. So true. I've hardly heard anything about the girls since this happened.

[redqueen]

76. If you were actually interested, you'd know they are still in the news.

I'm sadly unsurprised that their plight is being used as a red herring here.

[Common Sense Party]

84. Sigh. I am actually interested, which is why I brought it up. If you would check, you

would see that coverage of the girls' plight has dropped off dramatically, and not just here on DU. Red herring, my arse.

Typical.

[redqueen]

88. It is a red herring. The nature of the media hasn't suddenly changed.

Neither has human nature. This incident was more recent and closer to home. For you to act as if the change in levels of interest is remarkable is ... interesting.

[bettyellen]

85. don't derail, it is insulting. start a thread about it yourself!

[Common Sense Party]

86. Insulting to whom?

[Maedhros]

132. You are engaging in "whataboutery"

by coming into a thread about one topic, and dismissing it's importance by focusing on another.

If you want to discuss how coverage of Boko Haram has dropped off since the Isla Vista incident, by all means do so. However it is disrespectful to accuse posters in this thread of caring too much about Isla Vista because Boko Haram.

[NuclearDem]

109. Concern troll is concerned.

[Common Sense Party]

134. And you have a wonderful day as well.

[Aladeen2016]

52. I don't know

Some guys just can't, period.

I am 36 and never had any female attention. While I have no illusions that
I am a "magnificent, perfect gentlemen", or any other such silliness,
I understand his frustrations with seeing douchebaggy jocks and fratboys
have it really easy, and the average guy having it relatively easy compared
to me. I also do not go for the "hot blond" types...they usually turn me off.
NO woman wants me, I've learned to just deal with it.

That being said, this guy was so fucking far out there, he certainly had
issues way more and way deeper than sexual/romantic frustration, which
must have repulsed people.
I am not about to go on a killing spree.

[dembotoz]

69. /\/\/\/\ yes/\/\/\/\

[DCBob]

53. Precisely.. we have all been rebuffed by the cheerleader/beauty queen types.

Its part of life and growing up. You just keep looking.. there is always someone out there to get romantic with.

[LisaL]

55. He wasn't rebuffed per se.

He wasn't approaching any of these women. He just expected them to approach him.

[DCBob]

61. For sure this guy was a psycho and a special case..

but clearly there are a lot somewhat normal men who don't get why attractive women don't want to go to bed with them.

[LisaL]

64. But he didn't even try to approach these women.

And he didn't want to be with just any woman. He expected very attractive blonds to just approach him, without him even trying. That really is not realistic.
Just like he expected to win a multi-million dollar jackpot and threw a tantrum when he didn't. He had very unrealistic expectation because he believed himself to be so special.

[DCBob]

71. I think he might have but in a weird sort of a way..

probably something like.. "Hey baby, wanna ride in my BMW and sit next to a cool dude in $300 sunglasses?". Not many girls would go for that.

[LisaL]

74. If you believe his manifesto, he wasn't doing any of that.

For instance, he described himself driving. He saw two women. He didn't talk to them. He didn't think they paid enough attention to him. He threw a drink at them and drove away. That's the kind of thing he would do. But throwing a drink at a woman wasn't going to get him a date, was it?

[DCBob]

78. I didnt read it but I saw some exerpts.

For sure he was weird.

[LisaL]

54. I very much doubt it.

While his looks were fine, I am reasonably sure his personality would turn almost everyone off.

[winter is coming]

96. ^^ This. He gives off a lot of "creepy, probably dangerous" vibes.

No woman in her right mind is going to be around that five seconds longer than she absolutely has to.

[Nevernose]

57. I read his manifesto

Besides being self-destructive, besides being a megalomaniac, besides wallowing in self pity his whole life, the guy was just an ASSHOLE.

Seriously, go skim through his manifesto. No wonder he couldn't get a woman to like him: he's a narcissistic douchebag. The dumbest girl on earth wouldn't fall for that big of an asshole.

[davidthegnome]

60. Hmm

I used to frequent a forum where the gender war was huge. There were no real moderators, there were no true rules or regulations - which is ultimately why it was shut down, but it exposed a raw, dark side of humanity that most rarely have the chance to see. In the relative anonymity of the internet, people were more or less unafraid to say how they really felt or what they really thought, even when it was extremely disturbing.

I am familiar with what MRA is referring to - but what is PUA?

In any event, most men who went through puberty without having sex (the vast, overwhelming majority of us) probably (at some point) felt something similar to what this shooter felt. Not nearly at the same level in regards to rage, narcissism, and self pity - but some level of resentment towards those we found desirable who perhaps did not find us so. I can't really (no man I have ever known could) put it into words in a way that makes sense, that does not sound despicable, twisted, or somehow very disgusting. So I won't really try.

Were it not for the standards and expectations of society - and the fear of imprisonment, young men in puberty would be walking around humping rocks, trees, doors - anything available. It is a desire, an urge that most simply do not understand, because our society (particularly in conservative christian communities) tends to be very hush hush about sex and certain urges. It tends to keep it hidden in the closet, so to speak. Oh yes, we have media, porn, movies and television and magazines galore... but the human to human element tends to be rather lacking, if that makes any sense. I don't mean that kids in puberty should be running around having sex (though this happens plenty) but that in an enlightened society, they would understand it much better.

A whole lot of the problems with our society (IMO) result from the fact that we are not more open about sexuality. Then of course, there's also the guilt inspired by religion which creates all kinds of other issues.

None of this though, could ever begin to excuse the crimes this man committed. When we look at the oppression of women from a historical - and even often a modern point of view, it is at times rather shocking that any of them at all want anything at all to do with men. This Isla Vista shooter is a rather ugly example of why. The danger, the perversion, the twisted mind that somehow felt as if he were entitled to things he did not earn or deserve. It wasn't about having a girlfriend, it was about "Woe is me, they do not see my greatness as I do! They do see me as the supreme being of the universe as I do! Well then, I'll just have to prove myself superior in a blaze of glory!"

This was an arrogant, self pitying coward who was well on his way towards solipsism. I do not mourn his loss, but I do grieve for the families of those he killed.

I don't know what the solution is to men like these - or even if there is one. I will say though... that I feel that Christianity is largely at fault for the way it views sex and paints women as objects, suggests to men that they are "superior", or, "masterful". Often I feel that the bible is not the work of some supreme being, or divinely inspired human being - but the fantasy writings of the most severe misogynists in history. A whole lot of historical and religious texts are very similar.

[redqueen]

68. This is sincerely depressing.

In any event, most men who went through puberty without having sex (the vast, overwhelming majority of us) probably (at some point) felt something similar to what this shooter felt. Not nearly at the same level in regards to rage, narcissism, and self pity - but some level of resentment towards those we found desirable who perhaps did not find us so. I can't really (no man I have ever known could) put it into words in a way that makes sense, that does not sound despicable, twisted, or somehow very disgusting. So I won't really try.

[Rex]

73. But evidently it seems to be the narrative now.

I call total bullshit on all that. Nobody I've ever known has had a deep seated hatred toward women (a murderous hatred), because that one time...you remember...that one time that one girl (don't even know here name, but whateva) did not flirt back.

Really I cannot believe some of the stuff I am reading today. Real eye opener.

[redqueen]

77. Thanks.

I'm really glad to hear your voice on this.

[bettyellen]

79. someone here confessed they hated feminists because one single woman many years prior had

told him she "didn't need him to" open a door for her. Just being told he was not needed, stoked his hatred of many for years.
That person was a dumb fuck, and someone should have told him to get over it years ago.

But there seems to be a lot of bent out of shape egos here and in RL over stupid shit like that. I am sure that poster carried his regressive attitudes and resentments over BS into his everyday life, where it further effected his interactions with women. But damn, why do some people think this resentment is a thing deserving some validation?

Sometimes we do not need you, sometimes we do. People are dirverse, you can't trick us all into liking you because you opened a door or have a hot car. It's not always up to you, get over it.

[MoonRiver]

82. I feel so tired after fighting this shit, going on 40 years now.

I have 3 adorable grandsons, and can only hope their mom and I have instilled in them a deep respect for women. I think we have, but only time will tell. The oldest is 14 and absolutely awesome.

[davidthegnome]

92. Not my point. I'm surprised that that's what you took from my post.

You are twisting my words. It would indeed be total bull shit if I implied that all men had a "deep seated" hatred of women - or a "murderous hatred". What I actually referred to was "some level of resentment". Seriously. If I say I dislike someone a little, do you immediately take it to mean that I have a murderous hatred for them?

I would suggest that most (if not all) people who are rejected by someone they have a crush on tend to have some level of resentment. It is usually quite minor, insignificant overall, but it is still there. There is a difference between a light breeze and a tornado - do you follow?

I noticed that a couple of you otherwise deliberately ignored or simply did not read the rest of my post. I'll grant that my style of writing makes for somewhat ponderous reading - I have never been very good at simplifying. Still, my words, I believe, were very clear - and no where - no where at all - did I say that a small number of men, or a majority of men, or any sizable portion of any population have a murderous hatred towards women.

This is ridiculous.

[redqueen]

94. I never resented the boys or men who didn't like me back.

Not as a teen, not as an adult. Its just life. People you like may not like you back. The thought that boys or men could actually resent girls or women simply for not reciprocating their feelings... that is just a seriously disturbing idea. The expectation that they should or will... just WTF

I don't understand the idea of it even, It is just completely foreign.

[The2ndWheel]

121. And what if a girl makes fun of a guy?

Maybe goes out of her way to make him feel like crap for even having the thought that he might be worth her time? Obviously guys can do the same thing.

It's not so much "simply" unreciprocated feelings that can cause resentment. It's getting humiliated in the process. Nobody expects that the other person should or will do that. Especially if it's in any way public. Especially when you're young, and have no frame of reference. Things like that can stick with you.

[redqueen]

123. This repeated moving of goalposts is annoying.

If you read the part I quoted, it includes this:

some level of resentment towards those we found desirable who perhaps did not find us so.

Then later (after I mentioned it) came the cruelty stuff.

[The2ndWheel]

128. Like I said, especially when you're young

you have no frame of reference. If someone doesn't like you back, in that way, and either humiliated you, or was completely respectful, you don't know why. It's a confusing time.

People have different reactions. Some may become resentful, some may not. We're all different. Someone may not even mean to seem cruel about anything, and the other person takes it that way. Or, nicely telling someone that you don't like them can be heard as talking down to you. Or, someone can easily move on, no matter how they get rejected. Or, many other things. The human being is a complex and weird animal.

[davidn3600]

87. I think he's touching a bit on social expectations and how men are judged

Men have certain social pressures that Im not so sure women can fully understand. Just like women have pressures that men can't fully understand.

Especially in American society, a man is judged very highly by what he has. The house he lives in, the car he drives, the career he holds, and yes... even how attractive his girlfriend/wife is. This isn't something I expect you to understand because you are not a man. But every man alive today in America has felt that kind of pressure (how sensitive a man is to that pressure varies). When you don't meet or exceed these social expectations, you may be viewed as a failure by your peers or by society. It can effect your self-esteem. Look what happens when a man is laid off...he'll usually take it very personally. A career can socially define a man's entire life.

It's the same reason some men may feel resentment when his wife makes more money or is more successful in her career than he is in his. Because since he was born, society has pounded into his head that a man is supposed to fill that role.

Now you can blame this on patriarchy or blame it on American materialistic culture...or both. But it is there and it still exists today. I don't think entitlement or privilege are the correct words for this. It's more of an expectation one would have if they are following a gender role.

[redqueen]

93. I get what you're saying

I'm familiar with the way that many if not most men identify with their careers or whatever measure they personally use to determine success. It is the same phenomenon which pressues women to identify with marriage and motherhood as the barometer that determines whether they have succeeded as a woman. That is indeed socialization to gender roles.

But its the resentment that the people you like didn't like you back... thats what gets me. That's entitlement, and it's also partially a result of sexual objectification.

[davidthegnome]

95. I think it goes a little beyond that.

For example, some of my most vivid memories of my boyhood are memories of rejection. There was a girl I had a very big crush on for several years. A "friend" of mine told her that I liked her (he reported all of this to me a couple days after it happened). She said to him "aww, that's so sweet", then made rather theatrical gagging motions. Given the fact that they were sitting around with a bunch of other "popular" kids who found that hilarious, it had a little bit of an effect on my self esteem at the time.

It was stupid childish crap - but back then, it hurt. A lot of little incidents like that made up pretty much all of my experience with crushes or girls I liked until I got into my late teens. Little by little, they added up. I became convinced that there was something very wrong with me. That I was ugly, stupid - and fat. In truth, I was of pretty much average intelligence, pretty much average appearance, and only slightly overweight. After a great deal of rejection though, one tends to internalize these things. Eventually, the rejected individual is likely to do one of three things. Either internalize everything and accept that they have flaws and that some people, for whatever reason, are simply not going to like them..., develop unhealthy thinking habits (I am fat... I am a loser..., etc) or, take the much easier way out - which is to blame those they feel have rejected them and made them feel small.

The third type is the sort where a lot of our school shooters emerge from, the first is very rare, and the second, I feel, is the most common by far.

On the other hand, men who are brought up on stories of the bible, who believe that they are entitled to mastery over everything on earth... certainly do exist - and are much more common in conservative christian communities. To them, women or girls are something to be mastered, conquered, dominated, controlled. It rarely occurs to them that they are dealing with equals. You know, the old notion that a woman who marries has "accepted a man as the head of household, her master" honor and obey, etc. I have actually have Christian women tell me this very thing, which I found appalling. I have enough difficulty mastering myself, let alone anyone else.

A lot of the problem is that we live in a society that places so much value on superficial appearance. Or on social standing.

This is my own experience - I imagine that the shooter had something of a different one. I have no sympathy for him though - because if I dealt with everything I did and managed to remain a primarily gentle and reasonable (if somewhat disturbed) young man... there is no reason he could not have. There is no excuse for random acts of murder. None at all. If I believed in such a place as hell, I would pray he suffered in it. As I don't, I can only hope that our future society will be wiser, kinder - and more quick to detect the warning signs of a man about to go on a rampage.

[bettyellen]

100. what you have to realize about that kind of resentment, is that you are denying others their

autonomy,and their sexual agency. and you really don't want to go there. you staring to cross that line to being all weird and judgy like he was. Elliot should be an object lesson for some people.

[redqueen]

103. I had much the same experience.

I won't go into detail but all but one of my early experiences with the opposite sex, from first grade Valentine's day exchanges to high school pranks on me were horrible. Some were outright cruel, even.

I still held no resentment toward boys I liked who didn't like me back. I truly do not understand how anyone could be so presumptuous as to actually feel resentment toward someone for not liking them back.

What bettyellen said is correct. Anyone who can identify at all with Rodger needs to take a long hard look at their views and read a lot of feminist writings on the issue.

[davidthegnome]

110. Talk about presumptuous.

That resentment, for the most part, is a thing of the past. It was more focused on those who were cruel (most of them) than on those who simply didn't like me back. Cruelty, bullying, these things should be unacceptable in any society. With that being said - I forgave them all a long time ago. I also held a minor resentment towards boys who beat me up when I was a child - is that presumptuous too?

People tend to react to cruelty with some feeling of resentment. Very few people will commit murder as a result of it - very people have THAT level of resentment. Again - there is a difference between a light breeze and a tornado.

I do not identify with the shooter in the classic sense. Rather, I can identify with loneliness, frustration, depression - and feelings of inferiority. These are very human feelings, not limited to monsters, murderers, sociopaths and narcissists. You do agree that there is something of a difference?

There is some feminist writing that I do deeply appreciate - and I have read a great deal. With that having been said - there is also feminist writing that's primary focus seems to be making monsters out of men. So many implications that we are un-necessary, that we are terrible predators, the suggestions that women are so much superior with regards to "emotional intelligence", kindness and gentleness.

Given the men and women I have known throughout my life, I can only say that we are, essentially, equal. Equally capable of intelligence or stupidity, kindness or cruelty.

Your diagnosis and prescription are not necessary - I will read just about anything for pure enjoyment. That being said - it is rather presumptuous of YOU to assume that I identify with Rodger on a deeper level - or to assume that I have NOT read a lot of feminist writings on this issue and many others.

[redqueen]

112. You call a giggle and "aw that's sweet" cruel?

And now you drag in bullying to muddy the waters.

You know what, never mind.

Bye.

[The2ndWheel]

120. He said gagging, not giggle

[redqueen]

124. Mea culpa for misreading that, then. That is indeed cruel.

Last edited Wed May 28, 2014, 02:50 PM - Edit history (1)

However I'll restate that this moving of goalposts is not helpful. If his original reply had said that most men disliked girls they liked who were cruel to them, nobody would have batted an eye.

But that's not what he said.

[The2ndWheel]

129. Nobody would've batted an eye?

I don't know if you can say nobody. Someone could've read cruel as just an individuals clouded interpretation of it, and maybe batted both eyes.

It's a message board. Someone makes a point, there's a counter point, and on and on. One person's moving of goalposts can be another person's expounding on a point. If everyone put everything down on the first try, everything would be great.

[redqueen]

130. It seems to me the context is getting lost.

I'm out.

On edit: just for reference, it's this:

This bull he put out on Youtube is precisely that, bull. I don't believe for a second the Isla Vista shooter couldn't find a girlfriend. ANYONE can find a girlfriend, even the socially awkward (hell, I'm married with a 4-yr old daughter). IMO, his problem was he was so obsessed with image that he couldn't find a girlfriend that fit his idea of what he felt he was entitled to. One of his manifesto entries stated he refused to get a retail job like his mother wanted because he felt he was destined for something more. It appears he felt the same about his love life. He wanted a bombshell of a woman riding in his shiny BMW because, to him, the woman was just another status symbol. No way was he gonna roll with a plus-sized woman, or a nerdy woman, by his side.

So when all these PUA/MRA Roochbags start talking about "there will be more shootings unless you give us sex", they're full of shit.

The only way they'd be happy is if we started stocking our cities with cloned, lobotomized supermodels, free for the taking. Because they're not after just sex. They're so full of themselves that they can't see that there is more to the definition of beauty than a pretty face and a nice body.

Before Isla Vista, I had no idea what the PUA/MRA movement even was. Looking back, I now see that some of my closest friends in college were just like this guy, self-obsessed pretty boys only looking to put another notch on their bedposts, and it makes me so very sad that I didn't see it sooner. This shooting has given me even more impetus to raise my daughter to be a strong, intelligent, independent young woman who will never have to deal with shit like these guys sling

[Dorian Gray]

117. A man may be judged by those things

but that judgment can only affect him if he finds those things important and cares about that judgment.

I am a female. I don't give a shit about whether people have more than I do. I don't care about things. I don't look for a man who has things.

I look for kindness and goodness. (And a wicked sense of humor.)

That's how I judge both women and men in my life. That's all I care about.

People who care about all that other crap... I can't really help them.

[KamaAina]

83. I've been girlfriend-less since the Bush administration

the legitimate, elected one!

Of course, unlike Rodger, I actually am on the autism spectrum.

[dawg]

107. Have you tried dating-sites?

I'm thinking that I may need to eventually resort to them, because I'm not in an area where I meet new people very often. And almost all of the women I know are married.

[KamaAina]

113. Ewwwwwww.

For one, my all-time favorite human being met her now-wife online. So it is of the Devil.

And yeah, it's just like Sex and the City: all the good ones are married, gay, or in that one celebrated instance, both.

[dawg]

114. Married and gay.

I tip my hat to you sir!

[KamaAina]

115. Actually, she identifies as bi

if only...

[lumberjack_jeff]

91. He didn't want a girlfriend per se. He wanted a trophy. n/t

[Number23]

99. He was as shallow as he was disturbed. His obsession with all things "blonde" was absolutely pitiful

He (and others like him) probably passed over a million wonderful women that would have been the joys of his life had he been smart and mature enough to understand that beauty comes in as many different forms as there are people and that the only beauty that matters comes from the heart.

My heart really goes out to his family.

[MillennialDem]

101. Anyone of any age (18+) of any gender can get a girlfriend. Elliot Rodgers problems is he didn't

want a girlfriend, he wanted a real life doll.

And I don't mean that in terms of looks.

[chrisa]

104. The problem is, he never tried to get one because he felt

that women should be begging him for attention. Classic narcissism. He was not in touch with reality.

[Iggo]

105. He didn't want a girlfriend.

[Dorian Gray]

116. I think that

nerdy or plus sized women would have the instinct to say no to this narcissistic, disturbed, misogynistic asshole.

[hughee99]

118. I find it hard to believe the child of a Hollywood director couldn't get a girlfriend

with a little bit of effort on his own part. It sounds like this guy wasn't willing to put in any at all.

[LisaL]

119. I realize people with normal social skills can't understand how someone can't get a girlfriend.

He didn't have normal social skills.

[Erose999]

122. From what I've read about this guy he had a mental disorder, and had only ever approached a woman

socially once or twice in his entire life and that contact was limited to saying hello. He is probably the extreme of the "MRA" movement, but thats pretty much what it is, seeing women more as objects than people.

[Ikonoklast]

127. Animals can sense when another of their species is not right...and we,too, are animals.

Some humans are just broken.

[avebury]

137. He forgot a basic tenet of life:

We live if a society where a person is free to determine who he/she wants to hang with whether it be it as a friend or in a relationship. You may want to have a relationship with another person but there are no guarantees in life. Nobody is required to be your friend. Nobody is required to date you. I think that is is pretty clear that he had a lot more issues then whether or not he could get a date. If he walked around with a sense of entitlement it sure was not going to help him at all. If he had a girlfriend she would probably have been just another victim. I would not be surprised if any girls that were around him picked up on really bad vibes and were smart enough not to get involved.

[miyazaki]

139. A gf would never have saved him

The damage was far too deep. Imagine if he did win over a girl and then get dumped by her.
The result probably would have been the same if not worse.

[Taitertots]

140. From everything I've seen and read, he probably COULDN'T

Because he seemed like a major asshole.