Chris Hayes: Isla Vista Shooter and the ‘Men’s Rights Movement’

[Starry Messenger]

http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/did-mens-rights-movement-inspire-shooter-267950147784

"Chris Hayes talks to his panel about the online world of harassment, misogyny and violence that women encounter daily."

Panel includes Jessica Valenti of Feministing.com and Shannon Watts of Moms Demand Action.

Excellent video piece.

[seabeyond]

1. bookmarking for later. thanks. nt

[PasadenaTrudy]

2. Thanks for posting this! n/t

[JNelson6563]

3. Look forward to watching this today!

Thanks for posting this.

Julie

[Starry Messenger]

4. You're welcome!

I wish there were a transcript, I wanted to post some quotes. It's really killer though, I think you'll enjoy it!

[2naSalit]

5. Saw that

I was glad he addressed it as he did.

K&R

[bullwinkle428]

6. Was listening to his show, and this segment in particular, while

driving last evening. This is the kind of thing that makes my XM subscription well worth the money!

K&R.

[mopinko]

7. it was excellent. pitch perfect.

someone at msnbc reads this site. more than one someone, i think.

[Starry Messenger]

10. I also tweeted him a few days ago too, asking him to cover this angle.

I'm sure others did too. I think you're probably right that their people read over here also.

It's really what I wanted to see someone cover and he did great, I'm stoked.

[mopinko]

35. truth

i sent him a couple messages, too. suggested that he interview the guys and see what they were willing to share of the battle of the trolls.
glad that things are not top secret any more. folks can see the whole nutty slimy mess that the mods used to mop up for them.

[Brickbat]

8. K&R

[redqueen]

9. Thanks,

posting here so I'll hopefully remember to watch it later.

[Starry Messenger]

14. Valenti's final quote really nails things.

[geardaddy]

11. K and R

[Tansy_Gold]

12. K & R done

[Starry Messenger]

15. Great to see you!

Thank you!

[Tansy_Gold]

29. I read a lot more than I post these days

But as a semi-pro feminist, I follow these threads pretty closely.

[classof56]

13. K&R

Watched this on Chris' show but it's well worth another view. Thanks for posting.

[freshwest]

16. Can't get the video to play but just saying 'Wow' reading this is being covered. TY, Starry.

[Starry Messenger]

17. I wish all news sites did transcripts.

Democracy Now and Bill Moyers do, and it is so helpful. Here's some excerpts on Raw Story:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/27/msnbcs-chris-hayes-open-carry-and-mens-rights-activists-share-misogynist-roots/

“There are a lot of self-described imagined macho dudes in the open carry movement who’ve called you and the women you’re organizing with every kind of vile aggressive name in the book,” Hayes said on Thursday.

“That’s absolutely true, whether it’s online or off-line,” Watts said in agreement. “There seems to be this idea that, somehow, women are going to take their guns away or take their rights away, when all we’re talking about is something as simple as background checks. So, the kind of anger and hatred that has engendered has been bizarre.”

Valenti, a columnist for The Guardian U.S., told Hayes that commenters on “men’s rights” websites had already responded to Rodger’s killing six people before taking his own life by blaming women for not having sex with him.

“I used to find it really sad, and I used to have empathy towards them and I would say, ‘God, what a miserable way to live, to think this way about yourself and about women and gender relations,’” she told Hayes. “But now it is really scary, because they’re providing this narrative to young people who are unwell, who want a place to put their resentment and they’re saying, ‘Put it on women.’”

[bettyellen]

18. This will get less derailment here....

Because it's an esteemed male journalist. And some would like to pretend there's nothing to it at all, so they'll claim they didn't see it.

[Starry Messenger]

19. I was thinking that too.

You know if Maddow covers this, it will get ignored, or people will say she's just got a chip on her shoulder.

[bettyellen]

21. they don't get their rocks off putting down men, so they will leave this alone

basically, Chris Haye's penis is scaring them off. Interesting, no?

[Starry Messenger]

32. Verrry interesting...

[1StrongBlackMan]

25. I don't know if you recall ...

a couple months back, a DUer posted an article about the Black female that adopted a white male persona on-line. She noted a distinct reduction in snark and abusive language from those responding to her and, suddenly, the same arguments that were deemed emotional and unreasonable when she was identified as Black and female, were deemed reasoned and reasonable, though disagreed with, by those responding to her white male persona.

[bettyellen]

34. DU is the first- and last place I will give away my gender.

It's not happening again. Guys- no thanks for all the dick pics, you can have the net to yourselves. Fuck it.

[PeaceNikki]

38. I should post a collection of the crude messages I've gotten on a poker app on my phone.

I changed my identity there.

Horrible nasty shit. With zero provocation except my gender.

[Starry Messenger]

40. I tried to play Drawtastic on my phone.

I draw well and thought it would be fun.

Several assholes used the game to send me penis drawings and write Ur Fugly back. I deleted the game.

[bettyellen]

41. We should start the thread that never ends listing this shit. But from what I can tell, a few here

would actually get off on it.

[Starry Messenger]

42. I know.

I don't want to get five para long-winded justifications of how this is just the internet, so suck it up.

[LexVegas]

20. "Mens Rights" is like "White Pride"

I know exactly what anyone that talks about supporting "Mens Rights" is really thinking.

[m-lekktor]

37. that's how i see it as well. nt

[Scott6113]

22. Another kind of hate group

For all the real problems in society we have to be killing each other?

[BlancheSplanchnik]

23. ooh, must to read.

Bookmarking

[Hekate]

24. Good morning, friends. In before the ...

... inevitable pile-on. Will go to the link a bit later.

[Chalco]

26. A must see. Thank you. nt

[Jamastiene]

27. K&R

[libodem]

28. This piece encapsulated

The whole mess very well. Fantastic job, Chris.

[Tansy_Gold]

30. The pervasiveness of the attitude goes way beyond MRA

As with most of the extremist "movements," we often too easily shunt the ideology off to the fringe and allow ourselves to ignore it. It's so far "out there" and not part of what we really deal with on a day to day basis. And even if we do have to deal with it now and then, we dismiss it as still being part of the fringe that's infringing (pun definitely intended) on the normal behavior of normal individuals.

But it's not a fringe ideology at all.

Spring of 1999, I was a 50-year-old returning college student majoring in women's studies taking an upper division level course titled "Women, Crime, and Justice." The professor was a petite and very attractive blonde woman. Of the approximately 30 students in the class, 3/4 were male and most of them were police officers or other law enforcement professionals working on degrees in administration of justice. I doubt that there was anyone in the class under 30 years of age; most were 35-40.

The course covered three specific areas: women as criminals, women as victims, women in the justice system (law enforcement, defense/prosecution, judges, prison administration, etc.). I think we spent at least two class sessions on rape, and it was pretty obvious through comments and body language that the guys found all of the emphasis on women as victims boring to begin with, but when it came to rape this was really just a total waste of their time. And "date rape?" Oh, give me a break! They just didn't want to hear about it.

But the corker came when the whole issue of no means no came up. One guy, maybe 35 years old, kinda stocky build, either a cop or a probation officer as I recall, protested the whole no means no means no means no. Period. End of discussion. He wasn't buying it. (Pun again intended.)

"Do you mean," he said, totally exasperated, "that if I take a woman out, spend a hundred bucks or more on dinner and a show and all that, that I'm not entitled to get something out of it?"

As I've said before, the gasps in the room were audible.

That's why when I read the stories about judges who let rapists of 4-year-olds off with a suspended sentence because "she came on to him," I'm not surprised. Disgusted, yes. Surprised, no.

[Starry Messenger]

31. Right.

This MRA bullshit is the pointy end of a long column of indifference to how existing as a woman in our culture manifests. We get it coming and going, with the right-wing being blatantly patriarchal. There are some guys on "our side" who have a hard time hearing about it too, evidently. Tough noogies.

[MicaelS]

39. I'm glad you told this story again.

I remember it from one of your previous posts. It is is terribly shocking.

Did you get the impression, or was it baldly stated, that most cops think many or most "citizens" (men as well as women) are liars, and that is why they are so cynical, since they believe they are lied to all the time.

[bettyellen]

44. when it comes to any he said/ she said, they kind of are reluctant to judge anyone, and if there is

alcohol involved, even more so. They are cynical for sure.

[Tansy_Gold]

45. No, it wasn't about lying at all

It was entirely about his sense of entitlement.

He even used the word "entitled." "Aren't I entitled to get something out of it?"

What I've found since then, both in relating that incident and in discussions of the subject of rape in general, is that very often men are much less comfortable talking about it than women are.

Is it because men -- as a class, not as individuals -- are uncomfortable having their entitlement questioned? That entitlement has been a given for a very, very, very long time. Until the 1970s it was basically illegal for a married woman to refuse to have sex with her husband for any reason whatsoever. Her husband was "entitled" to force her to have sex and she had no recourse. He owned her body -- he held title to it by right of marriage -- and there wasn't anything she could do.

So this particular incident wasn't about a woman lying the next day and saying that the sex wasn't consensual. It was all about his assumption that by paying for her theater tickets and picking up the tab for dinner, he now owned her body at least for the rest of the evening. If he asks her on Friday, "Hey, you wanna go out Saturday night?" and she says "Sure," he's essentially taking that to mean she has consented to sex. "Do you wanna go out?" really means "Can I fuck you?"

Many men don't like being confronted with that reality. And by denying that it exists, they close off any chance at a dialogue that resolves it, that grants autonomy -- and not just sexual -- to all human beings. If a person doesn't -- and can't -- feel that they own their own body, they can't feel that they're a whole human being.

[treestar]

56. I have a positive story on that

I remember in high school (this is 1970s) that a police officer, male, came to speak to our school. In the course of answering questions, he stated that "Accepting a date with an individual does not mean she consents to sex with that individual." (Police-speak always kind of cracks me up). That some girl even questioned him about it showed she might have experience that argument on a date.

[Tansy_Gold]

57. Again, it's not all men, and it's not all the time.

My point was that while it's not all men, it's also not just the fringe, out there, weirdos.

Pointing out that there's a cop, a dozen cops, a thousand cops who don't think they're entitled does not erase the fact that this was one who did feel he had purchased the right to do with that woman's body whatever he wanted, in exchange for a meal and a movie and he couldn't see anything wrong with that attitude. And it's very possible that if he had been asked point blank, "Does accepting a date with a guy mean that the woman has consented to sex?" he might have answered, "No, of course not." But when it came to his rights, his money spent on dinner and theatre, then it was different? He was entitled because of circumstances but someone else, not so much?

He's a cop. He's a person in authority. He's supposed to uphold the law. He's supposed to know what's right and what's wrong. He's like a doctor or a minister or a priest or a teacher or the neighbor who comes over to help you jump a dead battery or your daughter's history professor or absolutely anyone else. And you can't tell by looking at him or by the situation or by his job or his education, by the color of his skin or the labels on his clothes or the kind of car he drives or where he lives or anything else. Because 99% of the time, even if he's one of the guys who would never do that, there are other things he does and other things he thinks and no woman will ever ever know for sure, because all that shit is out there all the time.

[LeftyMom]

33. Thanks for posting this, I missed it last night.

[Starry Messenger]

36. I hadn't seen it either, their Facebook page posted it this morning.

I nearly stood up and cheered.

[seabeyond]

43. hayes did well. and i LOVE the women. not gonna shut me up. not gonna silence my voice. bulies.

good for them. good to watch

[Starry Messenger]

46. It was really well done.

I loved hearing the women too. I wish it could have been even longer, but Hayes covered some meaty ground.

[Tansy_Gold]

47. hayes did. . . . okay.

He still pushed it all out to the fringe, and he made a point of letting the audience know he was talking about the far extreme fringe of the gun rights group and the men's rights group. Both Watts and Valenti, however, were trying to draw attention to the fact that much of the ideology is NOT fringe-worthy. It's mainstream.

But they can't say that on TV. They can't be the angry white women any more than Obama could be the angry black man. And failure to be angry is . . . . .failure.

[redqueen]

48. Well said. nt

[seabeyond]

49. every single day this is what the women experience. they did keep bring him back,

you are right. the did not let the conversation get derail.

a lot of parallel with du.

but, you are right.

[Tansy_Gold]

50. i think it's interesting -- and I haven't followed the whole thing in depth

That there has been so much emphasis on the reaction of the father of the murdered young man. To the point that now, suddenly, because one father has gone public and his statement has gone viral, now the NRA is afraid??? hello? excuse me?

I don't want to minimize a father's grief, that's not my intention. But all the grieving mothers from Columbine and Aurora and Montreal and Sandy Hook and VA Tech and Chicago and Detroit and DC and everywhere else are now chopped liver? Swiss cheese? A father does not literally risk his life and health for nine-plus months to bring a child into the world, but his grief is somehow . . . . more noteworthy?

And that's what I mean by so much of the "men's rights movement" isn't fringe; it's absolutely mainstream. If a mother's child is ripped away from her, oh, her grief is just, well, sort of expected. It's no big deal. But holy crap, now a FATHER is grieving, and in public, and now it's a big deal?

You're absolutely correct, seabeyond, with the parallel on du. absolutely. It's why I don't post nearly as much as I used to.

[bettyellen]

52. I wish you posted more. And you are right- this Dad is unusual becuase ususally this activism stuff

on social issues is driven by women. And too many men have this attitude of "shut up, Mom". They childishly have this instinct of teen rebellion that turns them off to hearing advice (being told what to do) from women. Sad, and immature.

[Tansy_Gold]

51. I don't know if this has been posted elsewhere

I don't spend a lot of time on DU outside certain safe havens.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/05/27/not_all_men_how_discussing_women_s_issues_gets_derailed.html

Fourth—and this is important, so listen carefully—when a woman is walking down the street, or on a blind date, or, yes, in an elevator alone, she doesn’t know which group you’re in. You might be the potential best guy ever in the history of history, but there’s no way for her to know that. A fraction of men out there are most definitely not in that group. Which are you? Inside your head you know, but outside your head it’s impossible to.


This is the reality women deal with all the time.

[Starry Messenger]

53. Thank you, TG

That's a great link.

[Tansy_Gold]

54. The tweet about the M&Ms was, I thought, just terrific

in terms of how women see the odds.

And I'm pretty sure, without going back through my 14,000-odd posts, that I've argued this same point before (and I've not been alone!) that when it comes to "every man is a potential rapist," the guys just don't get how that works. They insist THEY aren't A potential rapist, but. . . . blah, blah, blah, you know how that chorus goes.

A friend on another board has just posted that many of the discussions (I'm assuming at Twitter #YesAllWomen, but I'm not tweet-savvy enough to know) of women's experiences are now being flooded with posts intended to dilute, derail, and silence the women's voices. Posters are having to close the discussions to comments or spend all their time removing the unwanted shit.

[redqueen]

55. Of course. Reminds me of this.

http://www.gabbysplayhouse.com/webcomics/sexism/