George Zimmerman's grandpa served in "military intelligence."

[mainer]

Yesterday on DU, there was speculation (the subject has since been deleted by the original poster) that the Zimmerman family had ties to the CIA. The NYT has this to say about it:

"He (George), too, was from someplace else — the second of three children raised in a red-brick home in a cul-de-sac in Manassas, Va. His father, Robert, was a magistrate judge and a veteran of the Vietnam War, and Robert’s father worked in Army intelligence,"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/02/us/trayvon-martin-shooting-prompts-a-review-of-ideals.html?pagewanted=3&ref=us

DU was not far off the mark. Now the question is, what did George's dad, Robert J, do before he became a magistrate?

[NoMoreWarNow]

1. definitely a creepy layer to this

can you say psy-op?

hard to rule it out.

[greytdemocrat]

2. I know!!!

He's a slobbering Alien!!!!



Christ...

[HereSince1628]

3. Too, tinfoily for me. Going for the grandparents' stories suggests nothing else to write about

I too am a Vietnam vet. I actually worked in MI at a secretive base--that could be discussed as connected to the National Security Agency--situated on one of the original security system 'farms' in the white fenced horse country between Warrenton and Manassas.

During that time, my son was born at Prince William hospital in Manassas. Amazing parallels!!!!

It's laughable to think that my military service in the ASA, or any of the other folks who ever served there would provide our grandsons with special consideration if they were ever involved in manslaughter in Florida.

I rather think that Trayvon's skin color and Zimmerman's high profile in the neighborhood watch had more to do with the behavior of the Sanford PD than Zimmerman's grandfather's national service.

[mainer]

5. Yet we can't deny that the PD and the prosecutor's office bent over backwards

to clear George.

And that George's past assault charges were very swiftly dropped.

Or that the mayor claimed he was "called to Washington" about this.

Or that the ME's office held onto the body for days, knowing its identity, without notifying the family.

Someone is exerting some powerful influence here.

[onenote]

20. its true that the Sanford PD and the States Attorney have a lot of questions to answer

But I come back to the point that if Zimmerman's grandfather and/or father have such sway that they could get the PD and State's Attorneys to risk their careers, why couldn't daddy get Georgie a cushy job where he got a nice paycheck for taking up space?

[HiPointDem]

23. Don't know how high up you were in the foreign service, but Robert W Zimmerman, if it's the same

person, has a pretty extensive resume:

http://www.adst.org/OH%20TOCs/Zimmerman,%20Robert%20W.toc.pdf

ROBERT W. ZIMMERMANN
TABLE OF CONTENTS
Background
Raised in Minnesota
University of Minnesota
Harvard Business School
U.S. Navy, World War II
Entered Foreign Service 1947

Lima, Peru 1947-1950
Political/ Consular officer
APPA party
Ambassador Prentice Cooper
U.S. interest

Bangkok, Thailand 1950-1952
Economic Officer
U.S. interest – Thai silk
AID mission projects
Unsettled regional conditions
Chinese influence
Revolution

London, England 1953-1956
South Asia/Far East desk
Latin American liaison
Krishna Menon
British recognition of China

EA 1956-1959
SEATO affairs
British French influence in Far East

(Note: Robert W. Zimmermann Special Assistant for SEATO Affau-s D.C.. 12, 770)

National War College 1959-1960

Madrid, Spain 1960-1966
U.S. military bases
General Franco
Economic changes
Spanish Communist party
Basques and Catalan separatist
Ambassador Robert Woodward

Ambassadorial Assignments 1966-1969

Lisbon, Portugal 1969-1970
U.S. base negotiations
Ambassador Ridgeway Knight

Barcelona, Spain 1970-1974
Consul General
Spain after Franco
Catalanians
U.S Sixth Fleet visits

ARA 1974-1979
Brazilian and East Coast Affairs
Argentina-Uruguay war
Human Rights and Patt Derian
Nuclear matters
Comments on U.S. embassies
Presidential interest in Latin America


So if this is the guy, grandpa was active in the Foreign Service until 1980. Which means during his son's time in Vietnam and other military service.

Which suggests to me that his son (George's father) might well still have connections to that milieu.

[geardaddy]

34. The foreign service is a different animal

I think the OP was talking about intelligence service.

[HiPointDem]

35. State Dept has an intelligence wing and foreign service personnel can also be intelligence.

The U.S. Intelligence Community (IC) is a coalition of 17 agencies and organizations within the executive branch that work both independently and collaboratively to gather the intelligence necessary to conduct foreign relations and national security activities. Our primary mission is to collect and convey the essential information the President and members of the policymaking, law enforcement, and military communities require to execute their appointed duties.

The 17 IC member agencies are:

Air Force Intelligence
Army Intelligence
Central Intelligence Agency
Coast Guard Intelligence
Defense Intelligence Agency
Department of Energy
Department of Homeland Security
Department of State
Department of the Treasury
Drug Enforcement Administration
Federal Bureau of Investigation
Marine Corps Intelligence
National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency
National Reconnaissance Office
National Security Agency
Navy Intelligence
Office of the Director of National Intelligence

[mainer]

37. "political secretary" is commonly used as a title by CIA

Most embassies have CIA personnel who operate under official cover.

[HereSince1628]

38. I had a g'father a few generations back who was a diplomat and Ambassador prior to the US Civil War.

I respect people's right to think as they wish.

It's still too tinfoil for me to believe that Zimmerman's family history had more influence on the Sanford PD than their own biases and their direct experience with Zimmerman.

[HiPointDem]

45. This grandfather apparently worked in the State Dept until at least 1995. A little closer than the

Civil War.

And if the ID is correct, he was more than just a low-level flunky.

[HereSince1628]

47. I'm ok with others believing that either the CIA or the State Dept. pulled levers

for Zimmerman with the Sanford police. I'm just saying what I think, and I don't think I'm completely alone in saying that involving the grandfather's influence with the CIA or state dept is a huge speculative step. A step that goes too far for me.

For the CIA or State Dept to have an interest it would require some important national interest that the CIA or State Dept would want to protect. The reputation of a grandson of a former Ambassador isn't a national interest. And whatever that unknown thing could be, it would of necessity be something of international interest (since the CIA and State Dept deal with other nations) even farther beyond the existing details of the grandfather's resume. That sort of mental goose chase is a way to spin a fanciful tale and at this point its coincidence and conjecture.

I'm personally going to stick to the notion that it's about the Sanford PD for the time being. Bias and prejudice at that level is sufficient to explain what happened, so is sloppiness. And a search for all that in the SPD is part of the state and federal reviews being undertaken.

[HiPointDem]

54. I have come to no conclusions. But this connection, if real, is interesting. Esp. since

intelligence services tends to run in families at the upper levels.

[EFerrari]

4. Given how much these people lie

Grampa could have been filing in a library for all we know.

[mainer]

10. Grandpa was definitely not filing in a library

Information earlier provided on DU has, according to the OP, been -- intriguingly -- purged from the internet.

http://sync.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=503434

[AngryAmish]

6. My grandpa was in the IRA

[HiPointDem]

27. but was he in a leadership position? like this guy, for instance?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ernestomalley.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernie_O%27Malley

whose wife was helen hooker, married 1935...who happened to be the sister of Mrs JD Rockefeller III:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blanchette_Ferry_Rockefeller


Mother of Sen. "Jay" Rockefeller.

[AngryAmish]

28. Oh hell no. He wa just making bombs with some boyos,

[HiPointDem]

36. Ah. It seems RWZ may have had a leadership position, though.

[yardwork]

49. You're an Irish Amish person?

[AngryAmish]

57. No, I'm not Amish

Name is a tribute to Amish Roadkill. Beside, being Amish is a voluntary thing - you stop acting Amish and you are not Amish. And Amish don't use computers.

[yardwork]

58. I had no idea! Some Amish do use computers, for their businesses.

[mainer]

7. CIA connection now being openly considered:

http://www.reachoutjobsearch.com/2012/04/george-zimmerman-kid-glove-treatment.html

[MineralMan]

8. I'm not sure this is relevant, really.

I was in military intelligence, too, and even worked in the NSA building at Ft. Meade, MD, while serving in the USAF. That, and a couple of buck will buy be an overpriced cup of coffee at Starbucks.

It may be a fact that has no bearing on anything. In fact, that's the most likely thing.

[mainer]

9. It's only relevant as a possible explanation why the killing was not investigated --

and how strings were pulled to influence the prosecutor to show up at the PD and personally end the investigation right there.

Otherwise, the family's intelligence connections would indeed be irrelevant.

Interesting how the DU Zimmerman fan club kept pooh-poohing any intelligence connection as fictional. Now that the NYT has revealed there is an intelligence connection, the fan club is saying it's irrelevant.

[MineralMan]

11. Well, I'd have to see some evidence that suggested that

actually occurred and that it was due to the grandfather's "military intelligence" background.

There's a lot of digging around going on but precious little real information. In some places, simply being a white man gets that special treatment by the police. Occam's Razor seems to suggest that as the most logical explanation, really.

Now, if some evidence that there was influence used, I'll accept the evidence, but the grandfather's military service? Probably not relevant, really.

As for the "Zimmerman fan club" thing, I think that George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon in cold blood. I want him prosecuted for that. I'm nobody's fan club. I am, however, a fan of actual evidence of things. There's plenty of evidence showing that George Zimmerman murdered Trayvon Martin.

[mainer]

13. Not grandpa's military service ... the father's is what we're asking about

George's father Robert J. is described as a Vietnam war veteran and a Virginia magistrate from 2000-2006. Which leaves a strange gap of 25 years when his occupation is not described. He also refuses to allow his face to be shown on TV, and has done interviews with his face obscured. Because intelligence careers so often run in families, it's been theorized that Robert J. (who conveniently lived in the Virginia area) is the reason George's earlier scrapes with the law were never pursued in the courts.

And now Robert J., through his influence with the prosecutor's office and PD, is still protecting George from the consequences of his actions.

[MineralMan]

15. So, find some information to link him to that.

This is all speculation, and there's too damned much speculation already. Sanford, FL, according to the link you provided, has had a problem with prosecution of crimes against black people already. Why might it not be simply that that is going on? It's a common condition throughout the South, and elsewhere. Apply Occam's Razor unless there is real evidence to the contrary.

So, when you find out what Robert J. Sanford did during those years, you can present it here. Speculation is just speculation.

Evidence convicts. Speculation does not. Find evidence.

Googling stuff isn't how to do that, either. Google will find stuff, but it's not always correct stuff. There are professionals doing real investigations in this case.

[mainer]

17. Googling got me to the NYT

which is where the military intelligence link came up.

There are no links, and no info whatsoever, on Robert J's profession for 25 years. Which, in and of itself, is interesting. The absence of information is what makes you go "hm."

[MineralMan]

19. Why is it interesting that Google doesn't find out

what his profession was? Does Google know what you did in the past 25 years? You know who does know? The investigators. They know.

Absence of information does not imply that there is damaging information. It is just absence of information.

Military intelligence is a very broad thing. As I said, I was in military intelligence, as were many, many thousands of people during the Vietnam War. It's a very broad-based description, and is meaningless unless you know what part of it he worked in. I was a Russian Linguist. That gives me approximately zero influence on anyone, and I can't even speak Russian much anymore.

Either find actual information or wait for it to appear. Speculating on stuff is a waste of time. The real information will be used in any investigation or prosecution, not random speculation by either newspapers or DU posters. Evidence, not speculation.

[HiPointDem]

24. This Robert W Zimmerman seems to fit the description, starting with the initial posting in Peru.

Active service until 1980. This would be grandpa (Robert W) v. Dad (Robert J). If it's the same person.


http://www.adst.org/OH%20TOCs/Zimmerman,%20Robert%20W.toc.pdf

ROBERT W. ZIMMERMANN
TABLE OF CONTENTS

Background
Raised in Minnesota
University of Minnesota
Harvard Business School
U.S. Navy, World War II
Entered Foreign Service 1947

Lima, Peru 1947-1950
Political/ Consular officer
APPA party
Ambassador Prentice Cooper
U.S. interest

Bangkok, Thailand 1950-1952
Economic Officer
U.S. interest – Thai silk
AID mission projects
Unsettled regional conditions
Chinese influence
Revolution

London, England 1953-1956
South Asia/Far East desk
Latin American liaison
Krishna Menon
British recognition of China

EA 1956-1959
SEATO affairs
British French influence in Far East

(Note: Robert W. Zimmermann was Special Assistant for SEATO Affairs)

National War College 1959-1960

Madrid, Spain 1960-1966
U.S. military bases
General Franco
Economic changes
Spanish Communist party
Basques and Catalan separatist
Ambassador Robert Woodward

Ambassadorial Assignments 1966-1969

Lisbon, Portugal 1969-1970
U.S. base negotiations
Ambassador Ridgeway Knight

Barcelona, Spain 1970-1974
Consul General
Spain after Franco
Catalanians
U.S Sixth Fleet visits

ARA 1974-1979
Brazilian and East Coast Affairs
Argentina-Uruguay war
Human Rights and Patt Derian
Nuclear matters
Comments on U.S. embassies
Presidential interest in Latin America

[mainer]

25. That's the same Robert W. DU was looking into earlier

There's also an obituary in the NYT that lists Robert J. as the son.

[HiPointDem]

32. I know nothing about government classifications, but a Robert W Zimmerman shows up on a 95

state dept list. Dunno what IS/FPC/HDR B234 is....

U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Alphabetical Listing of Employees
Information Management


Alphabetical Directory of Personnel for United States Department of
State and Arms Control and Disarmament Agency

Zimmermann, Robert W
IS/FPC/HDR B234

http://dosfan.lib.uic.edu/ERC/about/contact/personnel/1995/UZ.html

[onenote]

39. HDR is Historical Document Review

FPC is Foreign Press Center.
IS is Information Services. And B234 sounds like a room number.

Another thread about this yesterday indicated that at the end of his career Robert W. Zimmerman was working at State compiling historical records.

[HiPointDem]

43. So if this is the same guy that would stretch his working relationship with State to 1995, at least.

Thanks for the info.

[onenote]

44. Right. The interview posted elsewhere was done in 1992

He died, I think, in 1999. So its entirely plausible he was still working on HDR in 1995 (in the interview he describes his role after he "retired" as working on HDR).

[HiPointDem]

46. So if this is the guy, he would have been about 76 in 1995:

ZIMMERMANN, ROBERT WALTER, fgn. service officer; b. Chgo., Feb. 5, 1919; s. Clémence Robert and Meu (Becker)


and he died in 1999.

United States. Dept. of State, United States. Dept. of State - 1999 - Snippet view
Robert Walter Zimmermann, 80, died on March 5 in Washington, DC, of a heart attack. During his Foreign Service career as a ... The grave site, on a wooded hillside, offers a clear view of the State Department's diplomatic entrance...

https://cgi.marquiswhoswho.com/OnDemand/Default.aspx?last_name=Zimmermann&first_name=Robert

[snooper2]

12. It won't have a bearing on you but it will on your grandkid, just wait...

[mainer]

14. Not grandpa's influence. Father's influence.

CIA as an occupation often runs in families.

[MineralMan]

16. Can't happen. I did not have children, so there wont be any

grandchildren. Lots of great nieces and nephews, though. Someday, all my posts on DU will probably come back to haunt them.

[Octafish]

18. Helps to understand why you appear to discourage discussion of certain topics.

"The thing is that the JFK assassination is so overloaded with conspiracy theory nonsense that it's almost impossible to discuss rationally any more."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=246586

And encourage others:

"By the way, this book is not the first time this has been mentioned."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002275512#post12

Just noticin'.

[MineralMan]

21. What crap! There's a reason the JFK assassination stuff is in

the dungeon, and what I said is absolutely correct. In your second example, what I said is also true. That affair was known long before that book came out. Facts.

I am a hard evidence sort of person. I like facts. When it comes to important things, like, say, a murder investigation and possible trial, only hard evidence will do. I'm not discouraging discussion. I'm participating in it. You're obviously free to speculate as much as you wish. I'm free to point out that it's only speculation.

[randome]

26. No, no, man, you're obviously in on the conspiracy too.

[MineralMan]

31. Actually, I was on my way to a Biology 101 lecture when it happened.

I heard about the shooting on the television in the dorm's community room. I went to the lecture hall, and announced the news to the class, which was instantly dismissed by the professor.

It's interesting that calls for evidence that can be proven leads to someone digging up other posts of mine from the past. What a lot of work!

[MineralMan]

33. BTW, do you have a database of my posts on various topics?

It sure didn't take you long to find and post that information. I'm flattered by your extensive knowledge of my posts on DU. Flabbergasted by it, but flattered.

[Octafish]

40. No, no database. It's the GOOGLE.

For instance, I asked:

What happened to your post about ''conspiracy theorists'' that was in GD?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=298219

The post seemed to have disappeared. You couldn't remember it. No GOOGLE could find it. So, I asked you directly. You kindly replied that you didn't remember it, but you would look for it. The one you referred to was not the one in question.

Regarding your posts and my continuing interest in them:

I consider you as good a poster as me and as good a Democrat as me. For several years now, I have read your opinions and respect your point-of-view.

What I don't like is Secret Government. So, when someone discourages people from investigating the assassination of President Kennedy, I remember it.

[MineralMan]

41. I have no idea what post you're talking about.

The Kennedy Assassination has been investigated by more people and agencies than I can count. The results have been made public. But, people are still arguing about the Lincoln Assassination, so I guess they'll keep arguing about the JFK one for another hundred years or longer.

"Secret Government" is an oxymoron. All governments have secrets. It comes with the territory. I'm discouraging nothing. People can investigate to their heart's content. If it seems like conspiracy theory stuff, I'll comment on that. In the current instance, though, the investigation of the Trayvon Martin shooting is ongoing. There is much we do not know, but that will be revealed. I'm suggesting that we at least wait until those investigations have been completed before drawing conclusions about information that may well not be related at all to what happened. I think it's pretty clear that Zimmerman murdered him and that the police did what they often due when a black person is killed by not taking it seriously. Publicity has changed all that, and a real investigation is underway.

The results of that will be known in the not-to-distant future. Why speculate?

[randome]

53. Lincoln was a vampire hunter!

I saw it at a movie theatre so it must be true!

[Rex]

51. Not worth it imo.

With those kind of posters, I won't waste any time on them or others that want to believe it is 'almost impossible to discuss JFK'. THEY are a waste of time imo. Far better that two or more critical thinkers have the discussion then binary thinkers wanting to blah the conversation with their narrow minds.

Not worth your or my time imo.

[Obamanaut]

22. It's getting crowded on "the grassy knoll". nt

[Johnson20]

29. LOL!!n/t

[randome]

30. There were thirty-six shooters all shooting in synchronization with one another.

They were all clones of Lee Harvey.

[Octafish]

42. That's almost what the Washington Post said when the HSCA reported it found evidence of conspiracy.

Rather than facing the facts and advocating for a re-opening a government investigation into the assassination, the editorial writers advanced the idea that perhaps two deluded, yet unconnected, lone gunmen coincidentally happened to have been in Dealey Plaza at the same time.

[Kaleva]

52. And that evidence was based on that it was probable there were 4 shots fired

Three shots fired from the book depository and one from the grassy knoll. The Committee found no evidence of an actual conspiracy.

[Rex]

48. I worked in Army intelligence.

That doesn't mean much imo. You can be working with the generals in the TOC doing counter-intel or you could be 30 miles inside enemy lines praying no one finds you...IOW there are so many different jobs in MI that there is no telling if grandpa was an intel grunt or had a job with the bigwigs.

[HiPointDem]

55. This person seems to fit the information released, such as first posting, etc. If so, we can tell.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=506096

[Rex]

56. I see that now, seems he was more then just a foot soldier.

nt.

[randome]

50. No!

It was an OWS Black Bloc operation intended to disorient the state of Florida so that unmanned drones can attack us under cover of contrail clouds ordered by the anti-Obama using executive orders and the dreaded HR347!

It's so freaking obvious!