General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIs Softball Sexist?
The conventional wisdom is that baseball is for boys and men, and softball is for girls and women. But women have been playing baseball since long before they had the right to vote. As the national pastime went professional, women were forced out of it and into softball. Title IX, the 1972 federal law that prohibits sex discrimination in education, also protects equal access to and funding of sports for boys and girls at the school level, and girls have been fighting to play baseball with lawsuits, if necessary since the 1970s. But equal access is often interpreted to mean not baseball, but softball.
Both men and women swim, ski, snowboard and run marathons and sprints. Both play tennis and soccer and basketball. Softball, though, is a completely distinct sport, with different pitching underhand and different equipment, including a larger ball. It also has shorter distances from pitcher to home plate and between bases, fewer innings and a smaller outfield. Yes, Division I softball is demanding, far from the beery fun of middle-aged weekend leagues. But the womens version of baseball is not softball. Its baseball.
Baseball evolved from the British game rounders, played by both girls and boys. Softball was invented in 1887 by men, though it came to be seen as an easier, safer and more modest game more suitable, that is, to ladies.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/07/opinion/is-softball-sexist.html
The author is correct with her last paragraph:
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Girls and women might be pushed towards softball for sexist reasons.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Now they can get their baseball program. I think it can happen with softball players transitioning to baseball.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)mindem
(1,580 posts)You need bigger balls to play
boston bean
(36,221 posts)mindem
(1,580 posts)I'll never ever ever ever attempt humor again just in case it may offend your sensibilities. gads!!
boston bean
(36,221 posts)I'll never offer my opinion again on your posts... LOL
mindem
(1,580 posts)I'm not really awake yet
pintobean
(18,101 posts)I guess you're just not allowed to joke in some threads.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)pintobean
(18,101 posts)and it's working.
Sometimes, a joke is just a joke.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)A sexist joke, but hell... I won't mention it again, excuse moi. LOL
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)let it stand 6 to 1
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)A person alerted to post#3 and I served on the jury and 6 to 1 allowed the post to stand.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)call me unimpressed.
TheBlackAdder
(28,209 posts)Sorry, 'Man' was sexist.
Correction: Jeepers, what's happening here?
Squinch
(50,955 posts)Tell me again about your humor.
mindem
(1,580 posts)sometimes this place is way too selectively thin skinned. I take offense to things I read here many, many times - it's just part of being on a chatboard.
Gidney N Cloyd
(19,841 posts)Squinch
(50,955 posts)mindem
(1,580 posts)showing that you believe you are more intelligent or better than other people. Pretty much what you are attempting now.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)I say Softball falls into that category.
edit -
9. It's sexist to only offer girls softball and only offer boys baseball.
But softball itself is not sexist.
This is a more correct statement.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)I guess that's just too much to expect. Oh and my comment is not directed at you.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)I wish you all luck and good health in participating in this thread.
dawg
(10,624 posts)But softball itself is not sexist.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)A sport that is suppose to satisfy women who want to play baseball, becomes a tool of sexist bigotry.
All should be welcome to either sport.
God, people are so dog danged literal (not necessarily you). I wish we could discuss the actual points of the article versus the literal interpretation of the title of the article. I feel derailment coming on and quick.
dawg
(10,624 posts)the point of the article. (Not that I would want to).
Baseball and softball are two different sports. There is no reason girls and women can't play baseball. It's just a sex-based tradition (which is a kinder-gentler way of saying sexism).
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Amateur and for fun, of course.
But women are offered an alternative so they don't interfere with the sport of baseball. Closing doors to many females.
There is no softball league that I am aware, male or female, that provides the same type of financial mobility for playing the sport professionally.
dawg
(10,624 posts)or to keep them from having a chance at making money at it.
I think it's done based on the incorrect assumption that they are not physically suited for playing the real thing.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)hmmmmmm......
dawg
(10,624 posts)the "delicate little things" from themselves. It's a benevolent sexism kind of thing in my opinion.
Edited to add scare quotes to "delicate little things". That isn't how I personally think about women at all.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)from playing baseball, even though that tradition just started in the 1950's.
You and I are basically on the same page, but I believe that the sexist attitudes are used for a reason, which is to keep women from playing, which in turn prevents them from the earning potential that men have achieved with professional baseball.
dawg
(10,624 posts)as a man, I usually hear most of the sexist crap that some other men think. They believe all men think the they way they do, so they will run their mouths and spit out an unending streak of sexist (and racist, and homophobic) drivel, until someone finally tells them they are stupid and to STFU.
But I've never heard any men say or imply anything about trying to keep girls and women down by keeping them out of the "good" sports. I think, for the most part, they just don't believe women *could* compete.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)You will find many men and probably some women who would cringe at the idea of a woman entering the MLB. It's better for them to have a reason, albeit a sexist reason, than just come right out and say it.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)With so much of the workforce fighting overseas, wartime industry brought large segments of the population together when previously those segments had been culturally separate. For example, Mobile, Alabama went from a sleepy little port town into a massive Navy shipyard, and tens of thousands of people were brought in from every corner of the country and all walks of life to provide the needed labor. Many towns across the country had the same experience. This meant that women and minorities, which had been up until that time relegated to certain specific roles in society, would now be working together at jobs traditionally reserved for white men. Further, they excelled at it, transforming the struggling peacetime economy into a juggernaut by war's end.
While I think that the seeds of the cultural revolution of the 60s were sown in the armories, shipyards and aircraft factories of WWII, there was an initial backlash to the changes that occurred while the soldiers were off fighting. When the war ended and the soldiers came home, there was definitely an effort to try and put the genie back in the bottle. Returning GIs needed jobs and wives. A woman's place was again stressed as being in the home, not in the factory or on the baseball field. I think that a lot of the rigidity of society of the 50s, to which the cultural revolution of the 60s arose in response, was a misplaced effort to put things back to "normal" after the war.
Perhaps briefly interrupted by the 60s, the pressure from conservatives to reestablish cultural, religious and sexual norms continues to this day.
GeorgeGist
(25,321 posts)Ilsa
(61,695 posts)I don't know if or when women will get baseball teams in school and college. They have proven their ability to take on tougher game when they went from half court to full court basketball. In fact, many women's games are as exciting as men's, IMO.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)Changes in the basketball shot clock, and instituting the 3-point hoop came about, I am told, by pressure from women's college basketball. This, in a successful attempt to speed up the game and increase scoring.
It was Magic to watch the Lady Longhorns in their title run in '86, running opponents into the ground, and bombing 3-pointers during hundred-point games. The women's team had more attendance that year than the men's team. Changed women's college basketball forever.
UT, M.Ed, '72
UF, Class '70
Ilsa
(61,695 posts)Changed the shot clock rule. I thought that was because men's teams were also taking too long in setting up and dribbling and passing. I believe the women's shot clock is shorter than the men's.
I wish UT and other teams didn't attach gender names to the teams. Why aren't they just "Longhorns" like the men? Aggies are all "Aggies", even the women's teams.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)but the reasons why are the delay and low scoring. I agree with you about the gender reference, though I do like Southern Cal's use: Women of Troy. Have they dropped that?
wilt the stilt
(4,528 posts)on the origins of the 3 point line and the 24 second clock.
randome
(34,845 posts)IMO.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)As a kid, I loved hockey. My parents were assholes and basically told me they weren't going to waste money putting me in hockey, because I was a girl and thus would never make it to the NHL so spending that money on hockey was pointless (they spent thousands every year on my brother's hockey). However, 'ringette' came to town and some girls started playing it. I didn't WANT to play ringette - I wanted HOCKEY. My parents were willing to spend money on ringette...however, the year they registered me, not enough girls joined up so they canceled it. I was secretly relieved. Instead I played shinny with the guys at the local outdoor rink (where all the guys were always asking me when I was going to sign up for hockey *sigh*)
Now, they still have ringette and it's played almost exclusively by girls. Back when I was a kid, it was very much 'hockey for girls' but now they definitely don't promote it like that and are quite adamant it's a different/separate sport. In fact, plenty of girls rejected ringette over the years so there is a lot of girls hockey around now, and a lot of mixed boy/girl hockey teams.
It was somewhat the same with baseball/softball here. Softball never really got off the ground where I am because not enough girls wanted to play (they never recruited boys to play, go figure). Baseball was always thriving though. When I was a kid they didn't allow girls to play, so as a teen I ended up playing adult mixed slo-pitch instead. Now, girls can be in baseball if they want (there still aren't any softball teams) and my daughter played baseball for a bit. I was happy that she was able to, where I wasn't. I agree that softball was conceived of because of sexism and that pushing girls into softball was sexism, just like me being pushed into ringette was sexism.
Which NHL team did your brother play for?
I had a feeling someone was going to ask that.
At the time my parents said that to me, my brother was doing really well and eventually he had plenty of tryouts with WHL teams at age 15. He didn't make those teams, but plenty on his AAA team did (his team had won the western Canadian championships that year) and a few went on to be drafted and play a few games in the NHL. He even went to hockey school with Jerome Iginla. So...it wasn't as if he was a horrible player and had no chance of making it anyway (as it ended up, he peaked too soon and was too short for a defenseman). But yeah, stupid reason to not let me play because even if my brother would've been bad at hockey, he still would've played.
It wasn't even just about NHL either, I believe the wording the mostly used was "You'll never go anywhere" with it. When women's hockey became part of the Olympics, I remember saying to them, "SEE? *I* could be on that team if you would've let me play hockey!" Their sensitive response? "AS if you would've made; it you have to be really good" Well I guess we'll never know how good I could've been now will we. ugh, my parents were terrible on this point. My ex used to call them the 'dream killers'. And FTR I was pretty good...Everyone from coaches to gym teachers to the boys I played with (who were older than me) said I was good and should play. Once I managed to convince my dad to let me practice with my brother's team (he was assistant coach) and afterwards my dad told me that the head coach said I was a smart player and amazingly smooth skater and I should be on a team. My dad shook his head like he thought the coach was insane. In my gym class in high school, the only other girl in my class had a brother who was drafted into the NHL (first round) and she played hockey. In our hockey unit, our teacher asked her, "what team do you play for?" and she said what team. Then she asked me what team I played for. I told her I didn't play. "you don't play?" "no" "Wow. You should. Why don't you?" "my parents said it wasn't worth it to put a girl in hockey" LOL at the look on my gym teacher's face (she was super mean to me all the time, but after that I think she felt bad for me). Once I won $175 because my mom won a raffle at a hockey game for a chance to shoot, from centre ice, 3 pucks into holes in a piece of plywood strung up on the net during intermission and she chickened out and made me do it. I got all the pucks in the small half circle holes on the bottom. 3 for 3. That was nice - I was 18 at the time and I felt like it said to my parents, "I told you I was good, assholes".
Anyway (I'm starting to sound like Al Bundy here, ) No my brother didn't make the NHL
dawg
(10,624 posts)It sounds like you were a pretty kick-ass hockey player to me. I wish you could have stayed with it.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)I wish I could've played. I was seriously obsessed as a child. When I was 6 or 7 I memorized all the players, their stats, positions, shot, numbers, and personal things (favorite food, favorite color) of our local NHL team. I would sit with my dad every Saturday night to watch hockey on TV. I begged my parents to take me to an NHL game (they finally did and I can say I saw Gretzky and Messier play in their heyday). I remember they put me in figure skating, hoping I would stop asking to play hockey. I quit going (my instructor said I skated too much like a hockey player, LOL) and instead begged them to buy me 'boy' (aka hockey) skates. I asked for boy skates for Christmas and birthdays for 3 years before finally getting them. Yeah, now that I have kids, it baffles me at how hard they had to work to keep me from playing. Funny, I have 4 girls and they all hate hockey, LOL. I always thought if I had a kid who liked hockey I might go into coaching. Guess it's not meant to be.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Your parents should have let you play.
treestar
(82,383 posts)School sports aren't there just for that reason. Dumb. Were there professional ringette teams? If not, their willingness to let you play that shows sexism. Though there is the excuse you can get hurt. But that is true with every sport.
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)professional ringette teams, that is. If there is now, there definitely wasn't back then (28 years ago or so). And yeah, my parents did use the 'you could get hurt' excuse for ringette over hockey (no body checking) however, they had no issues with my brother and his friends hammering me against the boards when we played shinny.
mathematic
(1,439 posts)Smaller basketballs, shorter hurdles and lighter implements in track and field, higher scores for the same techniques in judged sports, are significant examples.
These differences aren't caused by sexism. It's actually more like the opposite. The men's versions of these sports, for competitive or entertainment reasons, are optimized around the (greater) physical ability of men. Don't women deserve to have their sports optimized around their physical abilities? If this was anything other than sports, I'm positive I would get no disagreement.
As for softball, it's different than baseball, but not entirely different. They're so similar that there's no room for baseball and softball at an organized level. I don't think you'll find anybody in softball that thinks women can't play baseball. However I do think you'll find many people in softball that like softball, want to continue to play softball, and do not want women's baseball teams because they know it's either one or the other but not both.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)I'm not sure how long that has been going on, but it's real.
ETA: I looked it up. Here's some background on girls and Little League.
http://www.momsteam.com/sports/baseball/general/landmark-decision-allowed-girls-to-play-little-league
boston bean
(36,221 posts)The entry point to a professional career? Are there any pro women baseball players in the MLB?
Maybe you are saying that because they play little league that is our first step and maybe in a hundred more years women will be able to play baseball professionally, where as prior to 1950, it wasn't a big deal at all.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)I'm going out to walk my dogs, so I'll Google that when I return. I'm not saying anything at all, other than that girls play baseball in Little League. It is merely a point of information.
ETA:
As it turns out, the article at your link has some numbers about girls playing on high school baseball teams. Not many, but some. I couldn't find any reference to women on college teams, except for one story about a pitcher on an NCAA team. There are no MLB women that I know of.
I see no reason why girls and women should not compete in baseball in mixed sex teams, nor do I see any reason why a woman shouldn't play on an MLB team. I have no connection to baseball at any level, though, and don't even follow the game.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)out there across the country. A lot of amateur softball is played by coed teams. There are also men's teams and women's teams in softball leagues.
So, I guess my answer is that softball probably isn't sexist. Baseball appears to be, though, although that may be on the verge of changing.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)Another literal reading of the title of the article while agreeing with the points stated clearly in the article.
Why do people do this?
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)I commented in your interesting thread. I did some additional research, because I didn't know the statistics. I'm not seeing the problem really. I think the title of the article is misleading, in terms of the contents of the article. I'd have written a different title for that article, if I were the headline writer at the NYT, which I'm not.
Would you rather I simply didn't reply in your threads or something?
boston bean
(36,221 posts)written article.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)I read the article, both your excerpt and the full article at the link. I commented on your post. It's DU.
There are lots of sexist institutions in the United States. Some have been conquered to some degree. Others have not. There's movement, though, to some degree or another.
I don't think a lot about sports. Certainly there are male-only sports out there, particularly at the collegiate and professional level. Is that how it should be? No. Can women compete in Major League Baseball or NFL football? I do not have an answer for that question, since it hasn't really been tried. There are a few girls and women playing both sports at a less competitive level, like in high school and college, not to mention youth leagues, where coed participation is almost a given in baseball, soccer, and some other sports.
Will that lead to more participation by women in the more competitive world of collegiate and professional sports? I'm guessing not. The more intense the competition, the more likely that men will continue to make up the teams in sports like baseball, basketball, football, and some others at the adult level, which includes collegiate teams.
Here at the University of Minnesota, the women's basketball team won the NCAA Division I championship in basketball. The men's team didn't fare very well in NCAA competition. We're all very proud of the Gopher's women's basketball team here. We also have a women's professional basketball team, the Lynx, who triumphed nationally in their league.
It's not one of the areas I think much about, though.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)No one is forcing you to.
Lonusca
(202 posts)What do you think the reason is that women are not playing on mens's college and pro baseball teams?
The issue is not allowing girls to try out, like the girl who played in 7th but was barred in 8th. That is wrong.
But not having a full girls baseball team available doesn't seem to fall into the category of discriminatory.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)because there is an alternative that is not as lucrative, that makes it sexist.
Lonusca
(202 posts)Barring a girl from playing baseball is sexist.
Not having a high school team available is not. High schools are strapped for cash, trying to provide as many services to as many students as possible. There is no demand for a HS girls baseball team.
There are many out of high school programs for sports. If there is demand for girls only baseball it seems it would be met.
And if unionization goes through for NCAA athletes, prepare to see most non-revenue generating sports disappear. So girls college baseball is not on the horizon.
You seem to be saying there are no women in the pros because of lack of access to competitive baseball.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)What do you think the reason is?
Lonusca
(202 posts)Your premise is that girls do not have access to playing baseball is incorrect.
Your premise that girls baseball leagues (outside of high school) cannot exist in incorrect.
And the next step is - we provide girls football? Or is football not sexist because there is no corresponding flag football for girls?
I think there are no women is the pros because, as of yet, there have not been any who are good enough to make the teams. Pro teams want to do one thing - win. There is a league of WNBA players. Highly skilled pros. As of yet - even with all the training, none have been drafted or played in the NBA.
Is this because of lack of access as well?
boston bean
(36,221 posts)When in fact they are. So, we won't come to agreement on that.
And yes with baseball women could play on level that men do. They have in the past.
I'm not sure about football, but I'm sure a woman could play basketball on a mens team. It's possible they aren't just afforded the access because they are women. I know that is an extremely radical thought .... but please consider it.
Lonusca
(202 posts)I'm sure they are pushed more into softball than baseball.
Where have they played against men on the MLB level in the past? The AAGPBL was against women only.
I won't consider the thought. It does't make any sense. Pros are about winning. Period. Why do you think people like Pacman Jones continue to find employment in the NFL?
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)In HS or maybe even college in a pitching position I could see a young woman being able to make the cut.
There have been a few women field goal kickers on HS teams. Maybe even a college here and there.
I think a young woman even tried out for the position on an open try-out day for a professional team recently.
But not being up to the standards of professional sports is not sexism.
Baseball is much better than softball. I hate softball. I played on mixed leagues in baseball and never felt excluded or shamed.
But I was playing with equally klutzy not really athletes.
A baseball is just easier to catch and throw for me.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)during the very critical years of developing skills, you can't see how that could hinder or limit their chances of playing professional baseball?
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)It is genetics that limit a woman's ability to play professional baseball.
There could be a women's league as in "League of Their Own." And that would be light years more interesting than softball.
To me.
But many girls love softball. I just heard of a girl, a daughter of a friend of a friend, last week that is getting a full scholarship for softball.
I can see a woman field goal kicker in the next few years though.
Below the waist, for things like field goal kicking a woman can physically match or surpass a man.
Also HS wrestling. Pound for pound well trained girls can kick ass.
But saying that the only reason women are not playing with the Yankees is because they were not able to play baseball as children and teens is ignoring a helluva alotta genetic reality.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)And if you read the article they tried to take that feat away from her saying Ruth and Gherig struck out on purpose.
A couple of days later, the commissioner decided that null and void her contract and declared women unfit to play professional baseball as it was too "strenuous".
That ban lasted until 1992.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)A woman would have to make the team.
If you don't make the cut that isn't sexism. You just don't make the cut.
I think the first woman in "male" professional sports will be a kicker in pro football.
But does the opposing team still get to plow her into the dirt as they would a male kicker? If they can get past defenses before the kick is off?
boston bean
(36,221 posts)What you seem to want to ignore is that sexism plays any part. I suggest you read up on the first women to ever get a professional baseball contract, and how she was treated, and how they banned women from playing in the MLB. They didn't ban women because they couldn't compete on that level. It lo and behold was based in sexism, which carries over to this very day.
alphafemale
(18,497 posts)That may have been for show.
Was probably for show. I would say it was definitely for show and a photo op.
If a woman could consistently compete at that level. They would be welcomed. Fact.
Jackie Robinson showed that discrimination against blacks in pro sports was stupid....and bad business.
You want pro baseball to admit women...why?
Maybe you should be more concerned that US females have done way better in World Cup Soccer....and no one really cares.
But then no one seems to care much about soccer....anyway.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Last edited Sun Jun 8, 2014, 09:39 AM - Edit history (1)
kinda like Disco Demolition Night, but you can hardly make a statement on women in baseball based on her.
http://m.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Naturally men create a few orders of magnitude more testosterone then women after puberty. One way to even the playing field is during puberty and afterward is to supplement testosterone in girls and women so they can get larger bones and muscles. Synthetic testosterone is commonplace and easy to get with a prescription.
JVS
(61,935 posts)Aluminium and composite bats, 60 foot baselines (like softball), smaller outfields, often 4 outfielders (like softball again), shorter games to spare the pitchers, etc.
ileus
(15,396 posts)his last game...He loves playing this team (dragons Princeton WV LL) because of the two "hot" girls that play. LOL
All his hits (3) come against their first two boy pitchers...but when the game was on the line they took #3 off first and put her on the mound. The shortstop is also a female...
seaglass
(8,173 posts)game.
I have an intense love of both games and a long history through my husband and kids. My daughter played softball from the time she was 6/7 yo and my son played baseball starting at the same age. At that age the playing field is pretty much equal and those choices were based on my son wanting to be on a team with boys and my daughter with girls.
Of course it is not true that a girl or woman cannot throw overhand - my daughter could throw a bullet from left to home - no question.
I really need to think about this. If I agree that it is sexist I guess I need to agree that one is less than the other and I don't.
Oh and btw, those Men's Softball Leagues are damn intense - the beer drinking comes after not during.
boston bean
(36,221 posts)but I went with what the article was actually titled.
The author is not stating that softball itself as a game for women is a sexist but that it is a sexist alternative, but the reasons for it's existence in high school/college sports are. It is not a separate but equal game because unfortunately for softball, which women are pushed into at a critical stage, does not provide an entry into professional sports. Also, there is no reason a woman could not play baseball with men in the MLB. But because women are pushed into softball and men into baseball, women are left out of professional sports where they could play competitively. Which in turn makes the female option to ...softball sexist to women. They are not the same sport, although I will agree are similar.
As you know, many men play softball for sport. Still many leagues are delineated as women or mens softball leagues. But how many womens baseball leagues are there for us amateurs? It's the early conditioning of softball is for women and baseball is for men... Although men it seems for fun will play the "womens" game on the weekends.
I don't think anyone is saying to do away with softball for men or for women or for boys or for girls. But let's make baseball a bit more welcoming to women and allow women the same opportunities as men. I would also add that any boy/man who would like to play softball should be able to as well.
seaglass
(8,173 posts)create a different path for girls and it does reduce the opportunity to play professional sports.
On the other hand, because softball exists, it expands the opportunities for girls to play a team sport, to play in HS and College.
I am for girls playing baseball and boys playing softball if they want. I do not think any girl should be excluded from playing on a HS or College baseball team for anything except lack of talent/skill.
JVS
(61,935 posts)perceived inability to throw overhand.
Distance between the pitcher and the plate is a mere 40 feet compared with baseball's 60.5 feet. Overhand pitching would make it very difficult to react in time to hit the ball.
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)At any level. Mathematics post #29 brings up an interesting question. Would a successful suit to include baseball in college under Title 9 result in draining away interest in softball in favor of baseball, or cause a sports program to maintain a withered program(s)? Further, could only the big college programs afford 2 credible ball teams and thus have a built-in advantage in their title chases?
I know there have been legal efforts to start up baseball in college, but what do rank-and-file softball players think? It may not be a high priority if you are a Gator player, or a member of the other finalists who suffered the mighty Chomp!
Zorra
(27,670 posts)I used to go see the Silver Bullets play whenever they came to town. When I was a kid, (I loved baseball I still do) and wanted to play centerfield for the Yankees.
A League of Their Own is one of my favorite movies.
The Beverly Hillbillies was a TV show that was way ahead of its time in so many ways.
http://www.tv.com/shows/the-beverly-hillbillies/the-clampetts-and-the-dodgers-49322/
Inkfreak
(1,695 posts)And even a professional league if it can find a market and interested players for it. I know softball can be an extremely competitive sport and as a stand alone sport it has a lot of appeal because of the difficulty of baseball at the higher levels. Hitting 85-90 mph fastballs ended my dreams of college ball. I couldn't hit a curve to save my ass.
Professional women softball players are amazing players. It'd be something to see how they would play baseball. I'm sure you could find some women to play MLB, too. It'd be interesting to see. If I remember correctly, way back in the day a woman did pitch in the MLB and even struck out some big hitters. I'll have to look that up. It's in one of my baseball books. She was offered a one day contract or something to that effect.
Mike Nelson
(9,959 posts)...ability, not gender, and do so without being bullied.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Tournaments to raise money for charities. Double elimination. Always had a big power hitter in the clean-up spot.
It was a different strategy.
Logical
(22,457 posts)boston bean
(36,221 posts)LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Watching the lady Huskies every year, I can tell you why it's different.
The women softball players like that their sport is differentiated from the men. The ball is different, the field dimensions are different, and the most important thing is that the way they pitch is different. That necessitates different tactics. It creates interest in the sport because it's not quite like baseball. Softball isn't men's baseball light (which kills interest), it's a sport that is marketed as unique.
But that means it's a violation of Title IX, right? No, not really. To fulfill Title IX, women need the same access. That doesn't mean they have to play the same sports, just that the number of scholarships on offer is roughly similar (proportional to enrollment). As long as just as many scholarships are offered for the women's softball team as the men's baseball team, it passes Title IX. Title IX is about giving women access to the same opportunities as men, it doesn't exist to enforce the fantasy that they should play the same sports. (For the most part they do, with just a few exceptions)
Do you also think that because there's a men's football team, there should also be a women's football team? Of course not. That writer for the NYT is grossly distorting the reason women play softball.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Fast Pitch scares the bejeezus outta me whoa!
boston bean
(36,221 posts)and I was MVP. Loved it myself!
bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)It's an idea I'd like to see.
hunter
(38,317 posts)And there's no reason for high school and college baseball and softball teams to be segregated by sex.
Physical size is not as important in either sport as it is in, say, U.S.A. football or basketball.
Trouble is that in our sexist society men don't like to be defeated by women in sports, politics, business, or any other competition, and women don't like to play with men who are groping foul mouthed sexist assholes.
My sister played on an all women's soccer team and they regularly defeated men's teams, so maybe that's another sport that needn't be segregated by sex.
I'm a total klutz in sports. Throughout grade-to-high school I was picked last for any team and occasionally the team captains who "lost" by ending up with me made it very clear I was a liability, especially when the rules that required everyone play were enforced. In grade school I'd usually just wander away and ignore the game, sitting down somewhere to examine the insects in the grass. Even the adult supervisors or teachers figured I was less trouble that way.
But I did bulk out and become less klutzy after I quit high school and enjoyed playing softball recreationally on mixed sex teams.
A Little Weird
(1,754 posts)I remember as a kid wanting to play baseball and being told that "it's for boys". (No one could ever tell me why.) I was encouraged to go for softball instead. But softball is a different game. I didn't like the big ball - much harder to throw with any accuracy. And underhanded pitching just seems silly to me. So I just dropped out of it entirely; there was nowhere else for me to go. (This was a rural area with no recreational league opportunities.)
I don't think there's a simple way to solve this kind of issue. It's not just the fact that girls' baseball teams aren't widely available - there's a more pervasive problem in the way that society views what's appropriate for men and women. Football, baseball, and hockey are for boys. Gymnastics, figure skating, cheerleading are for girls*. People who don't fall within those norms aren't treated well. My cousin's son loved gymnastics when he was small and he was good at it. He abruptly wanted to quit and told his mom it was because gymnastics is for girls. He had started to get teased at school and that's how he knew.
*Even if it's not encouraged for boys, you can find professional male gymnasts and figure skaters. I'm not sure about professional male cheerleaders but I do know men are in demand for college teams and have cheerleading scholarships available.
Violet_Crumble
(35,961 posts)..but I never got that whole thing about softball and baseball. While baseball's not all that popular over here the way rugby and cricket are, it's the only sport I know of where there was a version for females., so I do think it's sexist. When I was a kid my brothers played baseball, and my parents tried to force me and my sister to play softball. I never asked why I couldn't play baseball as my attitude at the time was I didn't want to play any crappy sports at all, but now in hindsight if I'd been a bit less of a slacker as a kid, that's the first question I would have been asking...
JesterCS
(1,827 posts)Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)there are some male coaches/managers in softball, but there are no female coaches/managers in the MLB . We see men coaching in both male and female sports leagues, while women virtually only get hired to coach in female leagues. I never understood why it's like this.
JI7
(89,252 posts)Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)but I've seen a few who haven't played on the pro level before.
onenote
(42,714 posts)All of them have years of competitive experience as players, typically starting in high school (if not before) and then in the minors and/or majors. (Buck Showalter is one of the rare examples of a manager who never played in a regular season MLB game, but he did play for several years in the minors after being drafted by the Yankees).
onenote
(42,714 posts)and its progress has been anything but smooth, largely due to lack of fan support for separate women's leagues, but most people would be surprised at the fact that there appears to be growing participation in baseball by women.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women's_baseball
ileus
(15,396 posts)We wrap up our regular softball season tomorrow evening at 6. My 5'5" 120 daughter hated her years in LL baseball, she loves softball. This is her third season. The number of girls that can throw from 3ed to 1st quickly enough to get a player out is slim on any girls team. My daughter has no problem throwing the ball to 1st but it's about a half second too slow for your typical runner. Softball is a different sport and is a hell of a lot of fun. I base umpire at last nights game.
The only real reason I can find for her beef is the fact womens softball can be played by less than perfectly figured females. Move the bases out, pitch faster and it could then be dominated by the cheerleader body types.
Wonder if the author realizes there's are softball leagues across the country, featuring both men and women on the SAME team???? Of course they're not pro or college teams, but then again there's 100 amateur teams for every college and pro team.
I bet she really gets worked up with the TDF starts next month.
malthaussen
(17,204 posts)Have you read about Eri Yoshida and Ila Borders? Both played pro baseball as pitchers. In Little League baseball, there are a few girls who throw knuckleballs, which I've always thought was an ideal way for women to break the gender barrier into "men's" sports because it doesn't require extraordinary arm strength. I had hopes for Yoshida, but the irony is that ML managers don't like knuckleballers much, and women are not going to throw 100 MPH heat any time soon.
Pushing girls into softball (or girls-only versions of sports like basketball, which is equally sexist) is obviously one way to keep them out of the professional locker rooms. Saying women aren't physically capable is another (and reminds one of the excuse once used to exclude blacks and minorities from sports: "they don't have the talent." . While physical reality does indicate that it would be rare to find a woman who could compete equally with men in most sports, it does seem unfitting that the exceptions should be denied their chance.
But as for Jackie Mitchell, come on. It was Chattanooga, for crying out loud, and the Chattanooga owner was a showman in the tradition of Bill Veeck. If Ruth and Gehrig weren't paid to whiff, they would have been willing to do it for a lark. Kenesaw Mountain Landis totally overreacted (if indeed that wasn't the plan all along).
-- Mal
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)Softball has a bigger ball, softer ball, easier to hit and catch, and the field dimensions are smaller than baseball.
But it's not any different than most other sports. The female equivalent or female league of a sport is usually easier or "made safer" than the male league. In Golf, women shoot from a tee closer to the hole. In tennis, women play best of 3-sets while men play best of 5-sets. In gymnastics, women have 4 events while men have 6, and women are scored higher for the same skills. etc, etc, etc...
The philosophy here is that the female body is physically inferior to the male body in terms of strength, endurance, and resistance to injury...therefore the female version of the sport is adjusted to offset the difference. So in a perfect world, softball is just as difficult for women to play as baseball is to men. (no...we don't live in a perfect world).
Some if it is stereotypical. The popular notion that women's bodies are frail and weaker and therefore need to be treated more gently. The bio-mechanical differences play an obvious role in certain sports like tackle football or boxing which are designed for short bursts of strength that favor the male physique. But that doesn't explain why women play softer rules among themselves or get handicapped for endurance. There is no reason women play 3-set tennis matches while the men play 5 especially since women are only competing against women. The issue is the thinking that the female body won't be able to withstand the 5 sets.
Of course some of these rules is due to the fact that women in the past did not have much focus in sports. In the early 1900s, you didn't see female athletes as good as they are today. Not even close. Today's women would destroy those women. So some of these gender rules and stereotypes in sports is quite outdated.