General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsChildren Need Pit Bulls: A Picture Book
Last edited Wed Jun 18, 2014, 11:16 PM - Edit history (1)
Nobody is suggesting -- leastwise us -- that children should be exposed to dangerous dogs. All dogs are potentially dangerous, if they have an irresponsible owner: it depends entirely upon their upbringing. And a pit bull is no more dangerous than any other dog its size. Even a mistreated pit bull can be rehabilitated: one of Michael Vick's abused dogs ended up a therapy dog in a hospital. Galunker will include an essay directed at parents, with the facts -- rather than the myths -- regarding how to keep children safe.
This book has been written by Douglas Anthony Cooper and illustrated by Dula Yavne. Both have had their work published and shown worldwide, but there was no possibility that any conventional publishing house would touch a children's book about a pit bull. Hence it is being launched as a Kickstarter project, with the passionate support of pit bull advocates across American and Canada. The opening of Galunker will be serialized here, on the Huffington Post. And this is the first section.
Part 1:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/douglas-anthony-cooper/children-need-pit-bulls_b_5393410.html?utm_hp_ref=pt&src=sp&comm_ref=false
Part 2:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/douglas-anthony-cooper/kids-need-pit-bulls-galun_b_5410483.html
Part 3:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/douglas-anthony-cooper/a-childrens-book-about-a-_b_5453984.html?utm_hp_ref=dogs
* And for the coward that alerted me on my own thread: That was done for the sole reason of avoiding trying to defend the indefensible. Pit Bulls are the most abused animal around & Pit Bulls haters advocate their abuse.
boston bean
(36,223 posts)make kids not fearful of dogs where the owners are irresponsible fuckers with dogs who have an innate sense to maul. No thanks, this isn't going to help anyone but pit bull lovers who think their dog breed gets a bad rap.
roody
(10,849 posts)their dogs. All this dog killing is due to unrestrained breeding.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Additionally, a lot of aggression comes from un-neutered dogs as well.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Very conservative reasons.
elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)that should not have existed in the first place.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)With breed specific legislation, yes they do. BSLs take family dogs away from their humans and put them to death for the "crime" of being a Pt Bull.
wercal
(1,370 posts)My community no longer has breed specific legislation...
...but when I volunteered at the animal shelter, I couldn't help but notice a commonality among all the dogs on 'court hold'. Court hold means the dog has been accused of biting, and a judge is deciding whether or not the dog gets put down.
The commonality? At least 3/4 of the dogs were pit bulls.
Now these dogs weren't there because somebody was prejudiced against pit bulls. They were there because they were accused of biting somebody. Plain and simple.
The reasons are varied of course, but its hard to ignore the fact that pit bulls are very powerful, and quite often taught to be aggressive.
Looking at your statement "Pit Bulls are killed....", I will finish the statement. This statement is true for all breeds of dogs, and cats as well: "Pit Bulls are killed because irresponsible pet owners do not have their dogs neutered". Its a simple calculus, I learned during orientation at the shelter. They took in around 30 dogs a week, and adopted out 20 dogs. The rest have to be put down. All because stupid and selfish people won't have their animals fixed.
And for whatever reason, that attitude is more prevalent in the Pit Bull community than other breeds.
So if you really want people to stop killing Pit Bulls, why not stop breeding them? That's the epiphany I got sitting there in orientation class. I know that too many people are irresponsible, and dogs are being killed now, every day. So, rather than wait for the rest of the world to catch up in responsibility, I vowed to never, ever, under any circumstances, breed a cat or dog. I don't care how valuable or pure a bloodline is or whatever - if I buy a dog or cat, its getting fixed immediately. Because I love animals, and I'm tired of witnessing the cruelty of over breeding. Don't worry - we won't run out of dogs. Irresponsible people will still overbreed them. But if I buy instead of breed, one less dog is dead.
Would most Pit Bull lovers agree to never breed their dogs? I doubt it.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)The sad truth is that Pit Bulls are responsible for the largest percentage of bites, maulings, and outright killing of humans. If all breeds were equally at fault we'd read a lot more about killer Chihuahuas or Poodles. But we don't. We read about the Pit Bulls.
Yes, it is almost always an irresponsible owner at the root of the vicious dog problem, regardless of the breed. But it still comes down to the fact that so many of the vicious dogs are . . . . are you ready? Pit Bulls.
And irresponsible people don't spay and neuter their dogs, either. Nor their cats and cats breed a whole lot faster than dogs, so many millions more cats are put down every week than dogs.
About fifteen years ago I did volunteer work at an animal shelter, and one of the posters they had stated just how many cats and dogs each and every family in this country would have to have so that there would be no homeless ones. Something like seven cats and three dogs. Or maybe eight dogs and four cats. I don't recall the exact numbers but it was clearly many more animals than most families would want. Or could possibly house.
Response to SheilaT (Reply #91)
Post removed
NutmegYankee
(16,201 posts)Let's face it, dogs are one species, Canis lupus familiaris, but have multiple breeds just like people are one species but have various ethnicities. If one person stated that all people of a certain ethnic group were inherently dangerous and violent, modern society would consider them a monster. But since the group under attack is a breed of dog, it's ok...
This breed attacking just pisses me off. Animals have unique personalities with their own likes and dislikes just like people. Any pet owner knows that. And yet we seriously have discussions that "well, he looks like THAT, so he must be violent." And people think that's completely reasonable!
delrem
(9,688 posts)I agree that evidence is necessary.
To be honest, I've never been frightened by a pit bull and I've had some come through my work shop and they've been both gentle and aware.
But then, one has to factor in environment.
arthritisR_US
(7,299 posts)delrem
(9,688 posts)But you might also speak about the culture that their owners find so much satisfaction in (and the surrounding, ambient culture, that sustains them).
This isn't the responsibility of the dogs! Nor of snakes, or wild cats, or any other fetish animal that's used as status symbol in a sick society. Even killing all the dogs wouldn't end the NEED such sick societies have for finding an outlet for their violence - so killing all the dogs isn't in the realm of a "solution".
adigal
(7,581 posts)They don't get reported as often because they don't do as much damage when they bite.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)and never noticed any particular aggressiveness. Even so, if they don't do as much damage, well Duh! Nonetheless, I just don't read of any of those breeds attacking someone the way I read about the pit bulls.
adigal
(7,581 posts)You know how we always hear about the missing blonde girl?? We always hear about the pitbull attack. It sells papers.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,343 posts)The reason you don't hear about those is because "dog bites man" is not newsworthy.
"Dog kills full grown adult" is very newsworthy.
"Dog raised from a pup" kills full grown adult owner is very newsworthy.
"Pit owner who rescues Pits killed by her Pit" is very newsworthy.
Not to mention all the children killed.
Not to mention all the children maimed.
Go find me a youtube of a 911 call of an attack in progress on a full grown adult by a chihuahua or jack Russell or a dachshund that results in a fatality. Sure, any dog can kill or maim an infant or a small child. That's why you don't leave kids alone with ANY dog.
But full grown adults getting killed by their own Pits tells me there is a problem. Am I for killing Pits? No. But to try and put them on the same level with chihuahuas and dachshunds is absurd.
You can play the "false identification" canard or the " all dogs are the same" canard but when it comes to full grown adults killed by their own breed identified pet, Pits are the champions.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)... that all these Pit Bulls Are Killing Machines stories date only about as far back as the 1980s?
Did Teddy Roosevelt somehow just get lucky in not being eaten by his pit bull?
Also, your "canard" comment is a canard. The misidentification and breed bias has been documented by the CDC.
You also deliberately dodged the point. Several small dog breeds ARE typically more aggressive than others. So, the "canard" that there's something horrifically aggressive about Pits is the real one. You can make the point that it "matters less" when a small dog attacks (excepting the occasional child-maiming Dachschund or what have you), but any big dog gone awry will hurt someone worse than a small one. A 140-lb Rottweiler is vastly more capable of damage than kind of bull dog, but they're expensive, and simply less common.
Is it just too complicated to grasp that this *group of breeds and mixes* has simply become more popular with bad breeders, those wanting a dangerous dog to boost their own ego, and general idiots? Taking the three distinct breeds lumped together as Pits, with all the mixes and misnomers, and you easily have the largest pool of large, *potentially* dangerous dogs on the planet.
Not really a mystery.
You nor anyone else in the thread has made a case for anything inherently awful about any breed, because there is no such case to be made.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,343 posts)Surely they exist. Or is it only owners of Pit Bulls who dial 911 when an adult family member is being killed by their dog?
Show me some cases of Jack Russells killing full grown adult owners. No infants in a crib - adults.
Do you think maybe some breeder tricked this guy in to believing his two Dachshunds were actually "full blooded" Pits?
Did this guy not know what kind of dog he raised from a puppy was?
Or how about this woman who rescued and raised Pits?
http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/archives/four-pit-bulls-that-attacked-their-owner-will-be-destroyed/article_a772e243-ff5f-5735-abe3-6fbff87bf086.html
Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)Pit Bulls were often called Bull dogs or Pit dogs. I have seen a newspaper story about a pit bulls in the mid 1800's killing humans. They were bred to fight and that's what they do.
1909 boy killed by pit bull. The dogs owner was Colby the legendary pit bull breeder;
NEWBURYPORT, Feb 2, 1909 -- Bert, the 2-year-old son of Mr and Mrs Walter Leadbetter of Lynn, was killed this afternoon by a fighting bull terrier, owned by his uncle, John P. Colby, at 36 Franklin st.
Mrs Leadbetter and her son had come here to visit her brother, who is a dog fancier. The little fellow wandered into the yard where the kennels are.
The dog sprang at the child's neck and growling ferociously shook him like a rag. Then the savage animal, dropping its prey, snapped at other portions of the body, inflicting a number of wounds.
Mr Colby ran out, drove the dog away and bore the child into the house. He was faintly breathing, but quickly all signs of life disappeared. Medical Examiner Hurd, who was called, found that the backbone and spine had been broken at the base of the brain. The other wounds, while serious, were not necessarily fatal.
http://www.dogsbite.org/fatalities/1909-bert-colby-leadbetter.pdf
Another 100 yr + story of a pit mix killing his mistress;
http://www.dogsbite.org/fatalities/1901-carrie-cobus.pdf
Pit Bull kills baby 1945;
http://www.dogsbite.org/fatalities/1945-marguerite-theresa-derdenger.pdf
1909 Pit bulls kills man;
http://www.dogsbite.org/fatalities/1909-carl-limpert.pdf
1947 pit bull kills boy;
http://www.dogsbite.org/fatalities/1947-stanley-balaban.pdf
1949 Pit bulls kill woman;
http://www.dogsbite.org/fatalities/1945-doretta-zinke-1.pdf
1897 Pit bull disfigured woman for life;
http://www.dogsbite.org/fatalities/1897-julia-carey.pdf
1906 Pit bull bites boy;
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/doc/500657190.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Dec%2029,%201906&author=&pub=Boston%20Daily%20Globe&edition=&startpage=&desc=BOY%20BITTEN,%20GIRL%20ESCAPES
There are many more stories like these.....and from newspapers in the UK.
Instead of reciting the pit bull nutter's propaganda, maybe you should research the facts.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 7, 2014, 02:42 PM - Edit history (1)
No amount of individual "stories" proves a generalization about groups of individuals. True of people. True of dogs.
You're the Australian Shepherd fancier, aren't you? Good to see you.
But as we've discussed, that excellent breed has its own deadly anecdotes, too.
Your logic is a perfect example of the confirmation bias illogic at work here. It's quite the same as racist logic. Interpret actions of members of your own group as the misdoings of an individual. Attribute acts of another group to inherent problems with all of "them."
Right?
"He bit me," says Summer Gray, Dog Attack Victim. 3 year old Summer Gray is recovering from a dog attack. "He has sharp teeth," says Summer Gray.
She was playing at a neighbors house Saturday afternoon in Sylvester when an Australian Shepherd mauled her.
http://www.walb.com/story/16679796/dog-attacks-3-yr-old-girl
The dogs left him with stitches and on crutches after attacking him on Christmas Eve as he tried to give the mailman a letter his father forget to send out.
http://www.abcactionnews.com/news/region-sarasota-manatee/bradenton/deputies-man-steps-in-to-help-13-year-old-boy-being-attacked-by-dogs-both-bitten
Anyone can play games with anecdotes. It's the bias with which they are intepreted that matters.
Do you actually imagine you couldn't find the same kinds of stories with all kinds of breeds? The two Aussie Shepherd stories took about 20 seconds to find.
According to the American Veterinary Medicine Association, controlled studies have not identified this breed group as disproportionately dangerous. The American Temperance Testing Society (ATTS) puts thousands of dogs purebreds and spayed and neutered mixed-breeds through their paces each year. The dogs are tested for skittishness, aggression and their ability to differentiate between threatening and non-threatening humans. Among all of the breeds ATTS tested over 30,000 dogs through May 2011 83 percent passed the test. How did pit bulls do? They showed an above average temperament, with 86 percent making the grade. Pit bulls are the second most tolerant breed tested by ATTS, after only golden retreivers.
http://www.salon.com/2013/02/05/in_defense_of_the_pitbull_partner/
A fistful of anecdotes does not add up to the kind of anti-breed paranoia argued for now. Plenty of other dogs have been subjected to the Super Murder Dog myth.
So it remains the case that making "Pitbulls" as the Super Killer Murder Dog is a new thing, born of the same biases and mythology that made bloodhounds and Shepherds and Dobies and so many others the canine bogeymen (bogeydogs?) of the past.
Thanks for implying people who don't fall for this silly anti-dog bigoted mythology nonsense "nutters," by the way. I assume you are including the CDC and the American Veterinary Medicine Association in this thoughtful observation.
Although, I think a better case for defective reasoning or mental imbalance could be shown where someone who owns one kind of dog resolutely discounts anecdotes of that breed's "dangerous" behavior as irrelevant, while trying to make a case that similar anecdotes about another breed prove its inherent inferiority?
roody
(10,849 posts)dog owners a pit bull community. My pit bull community (rescuers) would never breed or buy from a breeder.
adigal
(7,581 posts)in the past 7 years. Never had a pitbull bite anyone. I have had chihuahas bite, and Yorkies, but never, ever a pitbull. Sometimes they have to be separated from other dogs, but they genuinely love people!!!
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)Can't the south deal with them? Do they let them breed too much down there?
Heaven knows the north is capable of producing enough dogs.
Just curious.
adigal
(7,581 posts)We spay and neuter.
The south doesn't. They kill labs, shelties, by the millions. They are a little better now but the first month I started, In 2007, I was trying to pull a pregnant lab, but she started giving birth and they put her in the gas chamber, in labor, with other dogs and kittens. They gassed pups as soon as they were surrendered, as there is no hold time. Google Gaston, Nc and Robeson, NC. The bastard running that hellhole would kill as soon as he heard rescue was coming. I used the FOIA and caught him heartsticking without anesthesia. He sold dogs to science labs for money. I could go on and on. Great parts of the south are hell for dogs. When I started, the lovely town of Greenville, SC, BROUGHT IN 18,000 dogs a year and killed over 90%. They got a new rescue coordinator, Taryn, and the numbers dropped dramatically. But someone has to care. Google southern gas chambers, and look at the faces. It will haunt you forever.
We have no puppies up here, except for purebreds because of string spay/neuter programs. Thank God. Vermont is the best state. They have to take dogs from other shelters for adoption days because they don't have any in their shelters. Seriously. Gotta love Vermont.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)What's so difficult about spay and neuter? Is it the expense?
adigal
(7,581 posts)They just drop the excess ones at the shelter.
And really, I respect our southern Dems so much, and this isn't their doing, but the south needs to enter the 1980s, at least, on most issues, no?
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)It still seems hard to believe, cranking out pups without any regard to their well being.
arthritisR_US
(7,299 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)my attempt failed
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)Just type "pittbull mauling" in google images to see why.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)the lovely little girl maimed by Galunkner's kin.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)The grandfather & his girlfriend were charged with child endangerment.
Unless you're advocating some sort of Nürnberger Gesetze for dogs...
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)Those dogs got off easy, compared to what that sweet little girl is facing.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Because of the actions of a red neck moron 2000 miles away from me with too many dogs that he had no idea how to handle, who never met my dog, whose animals are unrelated to my dog, and who never had any contact with my dog? Am I getting that right?
Nürnberger Gesetze indeed...
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)What am I to make of that comment? That you're an unreasonable, dog hating fanatic.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)She will suffer every moment of every day for the rest of her life, thanks to those rotten pit bulls.
They did get off easy.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Just because of what she looks like and not because of anything she's actually done?
Please explain how your position is NOT evil.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)and not humans and you have nothing to worry about.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Good.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)And put them to death. That's evil!
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)What's the preferred brand for tinfoil hats these days?
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Please explain how that is not evil.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)and yet you have the nerve to accuse me of supporting them/it.
You don't know half a much as you think you do, baldy, however I do know you are as paranoid as the most extreme of the gun rights freaks.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)or breed based on the actions of a few.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Let me guess, just like a gun, the dog isn't at fault, the owner of said gun/dog is.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)joeglow3
(6,228 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)joeglow3
(6,228 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)And some people shouldn't be allowed to own guns at all. Ever.
And I have no problem putting the same restrictions on dog owners.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)joeglow3
(6,228 posts)I put the rights of humans above guns and pit bulls.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Such as DOES NOT occur with Pit Bulls. Remember: 30 (of which 3 are from Pit Bulls) vs 30,000.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)People who understand stats do it on purpose to mislead.
However, it is good to know our friend with no penis or testicles thanks to a pit bull doesn't count to you, since he was fortunate enough to not bleed to death.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Guns are 1000x more deadly than dogs are. It's good to know the victims of Sandy Hook don't count with you, however.
And Oak Creek.
And Aurora.
And Tucson.
etc, etc, etc.
You don't give a damn about the victims. Just about your moronic little crusade.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)I said guns and pit bulls are pieces of shit. YOU are the one defending one.
That said what is the frequency that a gun (out of all guns) kills versus the frequency that a pit bull (out of all pit bulls) kills.
Boudica the Lyoness
(2,899 posts)I've seen pictures of your dog walking around off her leash.
Most of the people who's pit bull killed someone always say how the dog was raised in a loving home and would "lick you to death".
Here's a little story for you to read;
"On April 24, 2013 we lost both our beautiful son Beau and our family dog, affectionately known as Kissy Face. Our dog had been part of our family for 8 years and lived up to her name, for she was eager to overload everyone with kisses".
More here;
http://www.babybeaufoundation.org/my-story/
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)Judging from the rug, about 30 lbs?
roody
(10,849 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)Interesting that the dog haters have nothing to say when confronted with the innocent face of one who they would thoughtlessly victimize & destroy.
Response to baldguy (Reply #42)
Mugu This message was self-deleted by its author.
get the red out
(13,468 posts)They look so much cuter with natural ears. (Edit to say all dogs are cute, I love dogs intensely. I just particularly like uncropped ears on all breeds that crop them out of tradition.)
snooper2
(30,151 posts)What is your address again?
She's a beauty =D
I never loved a dog until I got my mini pitmonster. Best dogs ever!
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)One of the sweetest dogs I've known was a pit. On the other hand, the most vicious one I've encountered was a dachshund.
There are no bad dogs, but there are plenty bad owners.
I've encountered some pretty vicious cats too.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)IVoteDFL
(417 posts)Who knows what could have happened if she would have been put down or banned? I'm a cat person, but I've had a soft spot for Pitbulls ever since. Nobody can ever tell me that they aren't sweet, loving, protective and valuable members of the family.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)People horrifically maim people all the time. Most violent offenders are men. Most in this country are white.
When we discuss how to treat or think about white men, is it relevant to the conversation that their "kin" are associated with most violent crime in America? They're all sort of guilty of whatever an individual that looks like them might have done?
So maybe we should what ... get rid of them all?
The bloody shirt waving is especially specious and irrational. The bad thing that occurred is that a child was exposed to a dangerous animal by her family and was severely hurt. There are moral and ethical issues surrounding the people.
The dog is a dog. It's not malicious or cruel, or inherently evil because it is a "type" of dog, meaning it looks a certain way and is given a certain name by people. It is not part of worldwide organization of similarly minded dogs that are out to harm little children, nor can you somehow "blame" other dogs that look similar, or are claimed to be of a related bloodline for the "crime" of the other.
hollowdweller
(4,229 posts)I have a friend whose pitbull mauled her daughter. The lady loves animals especially Pit bulls and still has 2. She had raised the dog since it was a pup and did nothing but love on that dog.
My wife's nephew had one who he adopted it had actually been trained to fight but it was not aggressive to humans it was a great family dog but it would immediately try to kill any other dog it was exposed to.
I think that the propensity to suddenly go off and attack people is a genetic thing that has nothing to do with training. I always wondered if the one dog was so good with people because it had been trained to what was in it's DNA to do. Kill other dogs. Ever been around any gamecocks? They are the same way.
I think that as people breed pit bulls for pets, that they will eventually breed that hair trigger out. But I wouldn't trust them entirely at that point. My wife has been attacked 2x and she was lucky because the owners were there and could get the dog off her and it was winter so all she got was a huge bruise. But she says it's like somebody has your arm in a VISE and keeps tightening it.
The important thing with the pit bull to remember is the ones that are mean you can avoid usually. But the ones that are friendly you let your guard down when they attack totally unprovoked.
They are also incredibly fast. I was never attacked but our neighbors had one that would stalk me all the time. I would be working in the garden and it would be in the road watching me. I'd lean down to pull some weeds and take my eye off of it for like 5 seconds and it would have covered 30 yards and have it's head like 5" from my hand behind me. It was wild.
targetpractice
(4,919 posts)... not for aesthetic traits. We'll get even smarter and more social dogs that way.
Of course, we shouldn't be breeding at all when there plenty of amazing companion dogs looking for guardians.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)targeting an existing breed. In other words, when people talk about taking measures to protect from savage pit bull attacks, it's the "savage," not the "pit bull" that's the problem.
Many varieties of domestic dog have been bred for some type of aggressive tendencies -- towards prey animals, towards other dogs, or towards people, either in general, or in specific situations. Depending on the specific dog, its individual temperament both inherent and socialized, and its physical attributes, you can end up with an animal that is dangerous in different ways.
A relative has a pit-bull / Labrador mix rescued from a shelter. One of the supposedly biased-against "black dogs." Scary pit almond-shaped eyes, huge pit skull and shoulder musculature, terrifying bass "big dog" bark. From behind the front windows, this dog appears to be Satan incarnate. No problems with unwanted solicitors at the door. It also has the wacky, butt-wiggling, tail-slapping, shin-snuggling Lab personality. A complete goofball who, on first meeting, literally tries to put his 60-pound bulk in your lap and lick you to death. Not a dangerous animal in general. Not dangerous to visitors to the house. Not dangerous to strangers on a walk. But it's not around children often, so it would still be wise to keep, say, a toddler at a distance.
On the other hand, a childhood friend was scarred for life, physically and emotionally, by a neighbor's full-blooded Labrador retriever. With no supposed history of aggression, it bit a child full-force on the face and caused serious harm.
Point being, dogs are individuals. Yes, you can make them nasty, and big, nasty dogs are a danger to the community. There is also a complicated criss-crossing of bred-for traits that can make one dog crazy for chasing squirrels, another one determined to fight any dog it meets, and another think that a small human is food.
Take all the supposed "pit bulls" out of the world tomorrow, and the next day a child will be mauled by a Mastiff or an Australian Shepherd or an Akita mix or a poorly-socialized Lab. It's never as simple as what the dog looks like or what people decide to call it.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)When I was a kid everyone had dogs, purebred labs, collies, shepards and everything in between; but our dogs were with us all of the time, when we left the yard they came with us.
Most dogs quickly made friends and fit in, others had a tough time initially but after a few skirmishes joined the pack (just like kids).
Today most dogs are kept inside, chained or in a fenced-in backyard; they do not learn social skills and should be closely monitored when around young children. All dogs, not just pit bulls, are capable of maiming and killing humans.
~ The top 10 reasons to spay/neuter your dog just died in a shelter.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)...with my teeth!"
LisaL
(44,974 posts)dilby
(2,273 posts)You never know if their owner is responsible and you can't tell if it's loaded by just looking at it.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Dogs are not like firearms. Slanderous statements like yours wildly & unfairly exaggerate the minimal risks associated with bringing canine companion into the family, while minimizing the inherent dangers of firearms.
dilby
(2,273 posts)There are 70,000,000 million dogs in the US with 5% believed to be pit bulls so 3.5 Million Pit Bulls, there are 310 Million firearms in the US. I think those numbers look about right 30 vs 30,000.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)~100x more firearms would mean ~100x more deaths. That would be 3000, not 30,000.
And there are about 18 million Pit Bulls in America, with another 5-10 million mixes. And the figure of 30 is for ALL dogs.
So, in the end we have about 5x more guns than dogs in America with 1000x more of a corresponding threat from guns.
Thank you for proving my point.
dilby
(2,273 posts)Take a firearm and compare that to a dog, deduct from your number of 30,000 which includes suicide, police shootings, accidental deaths and compare that to one breed of dogs which does not have any suicides, police shootings or accidental deaths. Then take that one breed of dogs and look at the statics of number of human deaths a year compared to all other dogs, then take that a step further and compare the percentage of those deaths that were children under the age of 18. I think you will find that pit bulls kill more humans a year than all other dogs and their preferred target is children.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)And the biggest factor in the very, very, very few dog bite-related fatalities we have each year is whether the dog has been properly trained & socialized, not it's breed.
Google "National Canine Research Council" & try to learn how to stop using the RW method of debate (that is, talking out of your ass).
dilby
(2,273 posts)It's not the Gun, it's the owner. I could be wrong though, unattended Pit Bulls could be just as safe around a 5 year old as an unattended AR-15.
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Dogs can be trained not to bite people - and usually are by responsible owners. Again, no comparison to dogs.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)You can tell if they're big, and you tell what they look like. You don't know where they've been, how they were raised, what they're thinking, nor what they intend just by looking.
dilby
(2,273 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)The queer irrationality going on is that there is one "type" of dog, readily recognized by its appearance, that is a threat to all mankind because of its genetic predisposition to murder children.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)That includes all sorts of dogs beside the pitbull. But it certainly also includes the pitbull.
scarletwoman
(31,893 posts)elias49
(4,259 posts)Throd
(7,208 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)And putting them to death because of what they look like is pure evil.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)the ignorant yahoos who think it's badass to have a weaponized pet didn't overbreed them and dump them on the street, there wouldn't be so many put down.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)baldguy
(36,649 posts)De Leonist
(225 posts)Damn it all not every strange behavior that looks like aggression is actually aggression. Dogs bark in various tones for different reasons. The two that are barking in that video aren't being aggressive but issuing more of a "alert" bark. I suspect had the police simply just shut off the sirens, turned their cars off, and waited for the dogs to adjust to their presence for a minute or two they could've exited the vehicles without any real worry of being attacked. The dog that ends up chewing on the cop car could be easily responding to what in it's mind is something that didn't heed the alert bark and is making loud, scary noises and so the dog resorts to what is in it's mind is defensive behavior.
Most dogs, of any breed, don't just mindlessly bite or attack something. Most dogs will give off body language that shows their state of mind and how they feel about the presence of people or objects. It wouldn't take a much to train police to tell if a dog is in an aggressive state or in a simply nervous one. Unfortunately it is not always possible to deescalate the situation with a dog that is aggressive. However with a nervous one, which is what those dogs in the video were at first, as long as you keep your body language, voice, and actions in general calm, slow, and deliberate you can approach the dogs and let them see for themselves that you are not a threat. While the animal may not immediately switch to buddy mode. They will be far less likely to view you as a potential danger.
Humans and Dogs have had millennia to develop ways of communicating with each other. They are there and can be used by any body who is willing to do a few hours of research. You can't honestly blame nervous dogs for responding that way when the human is too ignorant to know what the dog is trying to say.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Those dogs were certainly misbehaving. You can't blame the cops for the bad behavior of those dogs.
De Leonist
(225 posts)It is true were the dogs were excited and nervous. Certainly not the ideal response for a dog with regards to a police officer. Now to be clear I don't "blame" the police for the behavior of the dogs nor the dogs for the behavior of the police. Nor do I think they all need to be a dog whisperers. However seeing as dogs are fairly common pets in this country I don't think it's unreasonable in saying that the police need better training in dealing with dogs that could possibly be aggressive or simply responding to what for them can be sudden and frighteningly loud stimuli such as police sirens.
Lastly terming their behavior as "misbehavior" is not exactly accurate. Misbehavior implies that they knew not to do that. Well obviously that is not the case. Like I said the knowledge is there and can be used by anyone who is willing to do a few hours of research.
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)De Leonist
(225 posts)While it is true that one shouldn't leave very young children unattended with an unknown animal. For all we know the only threat those two individual dogs might pose to a toddler is possibly licking the child's face off. Like I said while their behavior may seem aggressive to us in their minds though it might be defensive. We have to remember that dogs have very sensitive hearing, especially to high pitched noises. Like say, police sirens. Those sirens are unpleasant enough to the hearing of humans. For a dog the sound of those sirens could be downright painful and frightening.
flvegan
(64,416 posts)Feckless and ignorant is no way to go through life, DU.
KILLINGMACHINESMAULSPIKECOLLARGUNSGUNSGUNSBITEPRESSSSUUUUUUUURE!!!
lol
baldguy
(36,649 posts)Panelist Brigitte Gabriel of a group called ACT! for America pounced. She said 180 million to 300 million Muslims are dedicated to the destruction of Western civilization. She told Ahmed that the peaceful majority were irrelevant in the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and she drew a Hitler comparison: Most Germans were peaceful, yet the Nazis drove the agenda and as a result, 60 million died.
Are you an American? Gabriel demanded of Ahmed, after accusing her of taking the limelight and before informing her that her political correctness belongs in the garbage.
Prejudice & bigotry are evil, no matter who it's directed toward.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Extremist Muslims are so by choice and they are violent by choice.
Are you implying that pitbulls are normally peaceful and then make the cognitive choice to attack unprovoked?
baldguy
(36,649 posts)99.9999% of the Pt Bulls in the world do not want to kill you, either.
But some evil, ignorant people want to label every last one of them - Muslims and Pit Bulls - as vicious, irredeemable killers. Some of these evil, ignorant people have posted comment in this thread.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Ratio of pitbull-attacks vs number of pitbulls
Ratio of pitbull-attacks vs all dog-attacks
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Pit bulls can maul children to death but, hey, why should that stop you from owning one?
http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/03/17/pit-bulls-can-maul-children-to-death-but-hey-why-should-that-stop-you-from-owning-one/#Ckv6LXo7EyXW6kwE.99
excerpts
If were at an animal shelter looking to adopt, our calculations will go something like this: Animal X, even at his angriest, probably wouldnt and couldnt kill the children, while Animal Y could and might. Therefore, we will choose Animal X, or no animal at all.
Its one thing to love animals and people, and to put that love in its proper order and context. Its another to love animals over people. The former is virtuous and admirable, the latter is evil and cowardly
I have no anger for the dog itself. Its a dog. Its acting instinctively it has no malicious intentions. Animals are not capable of malice, but some are still capable of biting a childs face off, which is why we shouldnt be keeping them as pets.
Sure, the dog is a strong, aggressive, territorial animal. Its just doing what strong, aggressive, territorial animals do.
But not every pit bull attack is the result of an abusive owner. However, they are all the result of reckless owners. Owning a pit bull is reckless on a basic and fundamental level. Owning a pit bull when you have small children is simply beyond the bounds of reason and sanity.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)If the argument is that no one with small children should own an animal physically capable of harming them, okay, although that's a bit hyper-protective.
(on edit: It looks like the author is suggesting no powerful dog should be allowed "in public?" And he/she lumps in Rottweilers to enlarge a statistic purporting to show a special problem with "pit bulls."
The big irrational elephant in the room is the canard that there is some special, deadly magic surrounding the term, "pit-bull." The term "pit bull" encompasses three separate breeds, plus mixes, plus people with no idea what breed they're talking about and bascially any dog in a news report about a dog attack where no one knows what the heck breed it was.
The infamous, "Cat saves small child from dog attack" viral video of recent vintage involved some kind of Akita mix, I think. Not that big, no particular street cred for fighting. No indication the owners bred it for agression or abused it. Got out through an unlatched gate, as I recall. Just a normal, mid-sized dog that reacted to a small child as prey and appeared to be in the midst of killing him.
The rationale that there is one "type" of dog that can be identified as being particularly dangerous is simply nonsense.
"Pit bull" is a cultural identification not much different from race. It's what people call certain dogs, and it's what certain people call any vicious, aggressive dog they come by.
The actual rational argument would be to understand that 1) dogs bite, 2) large dogs bite hard and 3) depending on socialization, training and innate personality some dogs exhibit various levels of aggression, and 4) without proper socialization and training, some dogs also react to small children as prey and will try to eat them.
The rest is silly generalization based on fear and bad information.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)the gunners or the pit-bullers?
. . . the gunners with their unidentifiable "assault" weapons - and the pit-bullers with their favorite breed.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Do you not understand that even the term "pit bull" refers to at least three breeds? Which "pit bull" do you propose everyone is talking about, American Staffordshire Terriers, American Pit Bull Terriers, or Bull Terriers? All three are freely called "pit bulls" in the much-ballyhooed bite statistics.
Then there are mixes. I know a theoretically half-Lab, half-Pit Bull that looks like an American Pit from the shoulders up; Lab from the shoulders back. Guess what it would be called if it bit someone? Do you contend mixes like that are reported in cases of attack by a careful parsing of the dog's genetic history?
Do you think such a "mixed breed" is a time-bomb waiting to go off because it has a large head, or a "regular dog" because of its sleek hindquarters and waggly tail?
Do you imagine the majority of ill-kept, ill-bred, child-biting dogs are registered purebreds with meticulous breeding histories?
Then there is the sourcing. What a neighbor said the dog was. What the owner of a street-bred dog claims it is. What a local news reporter without any information at all decides from a photograph.
What an internet poster believes based a poorly written blog entry.
Please explain the clear and objective meaning of "Pit bull," Professor. Or is your argument that only AKC-registered, pure-bred show dogs are responsible for everything pinned on "Pit Bulls?"
There IS one valid analogy regarding the "assault weapon" question, which is that every asshole who wants to hurt people with a gun goes looking for an "assault weapon" and every asshole who deliberately keeps a vicious dog calls it a "pit bull."
That doesn't mean either that neither of those exist, or that the assholes all have what they claim.
But by all means, please feel free to give your objective, consistent and irrefutable definition of the term "pit bull."
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)dragging an old lady out of a burning building or saving kittens from drowning, you unconditionally accept the identification.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)but to the extent anyone does that, it's hardly as critical to note the nebulous nature of supposed breed identity if you're not arguing the breed in question is magically evil somehow, is it?
And you can hardly blame people posting positive anecdotes to counter the ludicrously silly breed bigotry others employ trying to prove one supposed "type" of dog is part of a worldwide child biting conspiracy.
The rational position is obviously that dogs are individual living things, not a homogenous breed-specific class of "good guys" or "bad guys" as some idiots contend.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)My concern is and always will be the destructive potential of an animal based on its biology and/or instinctive behavior. In this regard it's silly to equate all animals, or for that matter, all breeds of canine.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Last edited Wed Jun 18, 2014, 06:13 PM - Edit history (1)
Therefore, the notion you can generalize about the danger to humans of a vastly diverse group of dogs people with zero knowledge of the individual animal's background, training, socialization, or temperament call a "pit bull-type dog," or whether the owner or a neighbor or the teevee calls it such is completely irrational.
As I said.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Whatever cognitive dissonance supports your dogma (pun intended). Let me get this straight - there are no pits, or there are pits but nobody can tell, or pits get a bad rap for attacks by mixed breed dogs that share pit bull characteristics by linage, or...
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)C'mon. What would that even be? You seem to want to imply that you have anecdotes proving something about some kind of dog, but you haven't said what it is. "Destructive potential?" "Maiming?" I've got an anecdote too -- my friend the federal LEO fears dogs to this day because a neighbor's Lab put lifelong scars on his face. You think a "nice" family pet with a less fearsome name can't maim and kill?
I appreciate that you don't want to cop to generalizing or fearing a dog based on its appearance.
So what exactly do you contend? The animals we call Pit Bulls are ... what? Extra dangerous? Extra unpredictable? They can be. So can Rottweilers, Mastiffs, Akitas, Huskies, German Shepherds, and every mix you can think of. You don't seem to want to contradict the fact that "Pit bull" as related in anecdotes and news reports is an unreliable moniker that at best describes three distinct breeds, and often just relies on looks.
Big dogs can hurt things. They are related to wolves and have powerful bites and a variety of instinctive, taught, and socialized behaviors that include attacking other animals and people under certain circumstances. But they are domestic animals, and it comes down to human responsibility to keep other people and animals safe.
I am genuinely horrified by your personal anecdote and very sorry that happened to anyone. The dog that did that was clearly a danger to the community and should have been contained. The Lab that ripped my friend's face was ... wait for it ... a supposedly harmless family pet as well.
What dog owner doesn't say they never knew their animal was a danger? Maybe the psycho drug dealer with his street-bred whatevers, but any responsible person whose dog does something terrible will tell you they are surprised.
You want to make rolly-eyes emoticons at me about the idea Pit Bulls are misidentified / maligned in the media? Would you believe the CDC?
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) published a study in 2000 on dog bite-related fatalities (DBRF) that covered the years 19791998. The report concluded that relying on media coverage of dog-bite-related fatalities presents a biased view of the dogs involved. They stated that media reports are likely to only cover about 74% of the actual incidents and that dog attacks involving certain breeds may be more likely to receive media coverage. They also reported that since breed identification is difficult and subjective, attacks may be more likely to be "ascribed to breeds with a reputation for aggression".[7]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States
What's actually is turning anecdotes into conclusions based on factors you can't reliably know. Animals are individual creatures, and as DOMESTIC animals, dogs are the products of human treatment and conditioning. You don't know a dog by looking any more than you know a person.
The fact is that everyone needs to be aware that large, powerful dogs can do terrible damage, and can have bred-in or socialized behaviors that attune them to attacking other animals or people. That's it. German Shepherds were the big villain dog decades ago. Then Dobermans. Then Rottweilers. Before that, it was other big breeds:
The first epidemiological study of dog-bite fatalities in the United States was conducted by an epidemiologist with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) in 1977.[5] The study reported that all but one of the cases involved male dogs. The breeds reported in these incidents were St. Bernard, German Shepherd, Dachshund, Basenji, Collie, Husky, and Great Dane. Most incidents involved victims who were smaller or weaker than the dog. Thus, children under 5 years old accounted for the majority of victims. The study concluded that human behavior which the dogs perceived as threatening was the single most important factor contributing to these incidents.
If you want to generalize, watch out for MALE dogs, particularly un-neutered ones. That's the reliable statistic that holds up best and actually means something. And it's a lot harder to fudge or get wrong than calling every big-headed agressive dog a "Pit Bull!!"
The fact that a group of breeds and mixes that became extremely popular in the U.S. with people including dogfight breeders and criminals, who set out to create horrificly aggressive animals does not mean that every animal that looks a certain way is one of those. If all the idiots who want to keep a dangerous dog picked Mastiffs (and many do) or Shepherds, you'd have people claiming they were inherently dangerous as well.
(snip)
In 6 of the incidents, there was no information available about the breed of dogs involved. Of the remaining 68 fatalities, many involved large and powerful molosser breeds: eight Saint Bernards, six Bull terriers, six Great Danes, as well as two attacks by Boxers and one by a Rottweiler.
In contrast to the time period covered by the CDC study, which found pit bulls and Rottweilers to be the most commonly involved breed in such attacks during that time period, this study found no fatal pit bull attacks at all in the US during its time period, and only one Rottweiler attack.
Ancient and spitz breeds also committed a significant minority of the attacks. These were mostly sled dog breeds (nine Husky breeds and five were Malamutes), but there was also one Chow Chow and one Basenji.
However, by far the most common specific single breed involved in fatal attacks (16) was the German Shepherd Dog, which, like the two Doberman Pinschers also listed, is a product of an intensive documented breeding program involving quite unrelated canine bloodlines to create a superior working dog. There were also two identified only as collies, although the breed was not specified.
There were multiple retriever attacks, including three Goldens and one Labrador, and there were two fatal attacks by very small breeds: a Dachshund, which is a very small scenthound bred to work as a terrier, and one Yorkshire Terrier, which is among the smallest of all dogs. Finally, in ten of the attacks, the dogs were only described as mixed breed.
Look, think what you want. But there's no rational basis to hate or condemn or assume to be especially dangerous dogs people call "Pit Bulls," whether that actual breed, the other two also called by that name, or varieties of mixes and mistakes reported in the news.
Dogs bite. Big dogs can bite very hard. Some dogs are aggressive. Caution, not hatred or generalization, is the rational response.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)that matter.
I could be wrong . . . perhaps you can show evidence to the contrary.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pit-bulls-rip-out-6-year-old-girls-tongue-in-attack/
Roughly eleven days ago, Zainabou Drame was slammed to the sidewalk by the dogs who then tore at her face. The dogs severed her tongue before they were killed by Cincinnati Police officers who responded to the scene.
"The pit bulls got Zaina because she was the smallest of the kids, like the jackals do with the herds on 'Wild Kingdom,'" he said. "One dog grabbed her face and literally tore it off. The other one pulled her mouth off. That hurt her tear duct. They've fixed that, and they reattached her face. (The dogs) broke her jaw, too. The doctors worked on that. They repaired her chin and changed the trach tube in her esophagus."
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)After all, Chihuahuas bite people, too.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Should we fear / hate / ban them as well?
Aiden McGrew, who was born on Valentine's Day and was the youngest of three children, was found dead in his family's mobile home Friday in Ridgeville by his mother, according to The Post and Courier newspaper.
The baby was in a swing when Lucky, a golden retriever-Labrador mix, bit the child several times and tore off his legs, authorities said
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/dog-killed-2-month-old-baby-ripped-child-legs-father-slept-room-police-article-1.1065711
All the eye-rolling is funny, but it's taking the place of rational thought. There's nothing magically horrific about one kind of dog. There is a pattern of selective bad breeding and treatment, but long before the pit bull hysteria there was equal anxious eye-rolling about German Shepherds, Dobermans, and Rottweilers.
If you want to make an argument that big dogs of any kind are too dangerous to contemplate, go ahead, but the ducking and dodging and sniffing and sneering about "Pit Bulls" is simply ignorance.
C'mon. We're smarter than this here.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)"The attack was so severe the boy could have died," said Manatee County attorney Jim Minix.
The incident happened in Lakewood Ranch Community on Christmas Eve 2012. The two dogs escaped from the window home and began roaming the community. According to reports the 13 year old boy was riding his bike down the same street when the two dogs charged.
"The dogs were working in tandem and while one dog was being fended off the other dog would come behind the boy and bite him in the back of his leg. That's what caused the severe injuries. But, twice the boy tried to run away and the dogs chased him down and knocked him to the ground and dragged him," said Minix.
The boy received 7 bites, all of which were too graphic to show on TV. The incident resulted in an investigation that lead to Buck and Bill being sentenced to death. The dogs' owner did appeal the decision but lost the case. Which may be why local attorney Colleen Glenn filed legal documents on the behalf of both dogs
The girl was in a fenced backyard when two Rottweilers attacked her shortly before 6 p.m. Saturday evening, Delaware County Sheriff John LeClere said in a news release. Hopkintons population is about 700.
http://blogs.desmoinesregister.com/dmr/index.php/2011/03/05/two-dogs-attack-kill-hopkinton-toddler-3
The infant was sleeping in a downstairs bedroom Sunday morning when his mother, Andrea Meyers, heard cries coming from a baby monitor, according to a report from the criminal investigations unit of the Maryland State Police. When Meyers reached the bedroom, she found the dog attacking the boy, police said.
http://articles.latimes.com/2002/dec/17/nation/na-maul17
William Jaundrell's leg was almost torn off when border collie Bill attacked him on the driveway of his grandparents' farm.
His mother Patricia had left her son in the Vauxhall Vectra estate for a matter of minutes while she popped into the house when the dog jumped in.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1288786/Familys-border-collie-leaps-car-mauls-baby.html
Aiden McGrew, who was born on Valentine's Day and was the youngest of three children, was found dead in his family's mobile home Friday in Ridgeville by his mother, according to The Post and Courier newspaper.
The baby was in a swing when Lucky, a golden retriever-Labrador mix, bit the child several times and tore off his legs, authorities said.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/dog-killed-2-month-old-baby-ripped-child-legs-father-slept-room-police-article-1.1065711
Okay, this is horrible stuff and it's making me ill. Do you get it yet? Do you want to reconsider the canard than only "Pit Bulls" can do horrific damage when they attack, work in concert, or are hard to call off?
I noticed you don't have an answer to the problem with bias and ambiguity in the reporting of breeds. Did you see the bit from the CDC I posted confirming both that breed identification is subjective and that people and news agencies are biased in reporting?
Yes, a large, powerful dog can do horrific damage. Yes, significant numbers of pit and bulldog mixes have been ill-bred, ill-trained, and ill-socialized by unscrupulous or careless people. Yes, big, terrier breeds are popular among people who WANT a terrifying dog.
These are people problems, not "that dog looks like X" problems.
You may also note the large numbers of reported "pit" attacks, and sensational reporting regarding the dangers of the same, is a new phenomenon. These dogs have been popular in the U.S. for decades. Remember the little dog in Our Gang? No one thought bull terriers were scary then.
You cannot look at a dog, note that it's a big terrier breed, and conclude that it's dangerous. Nothing wrong with understanding the dangers of large dogs, and recognizing the prevalence of bad bulldogs amongst the population. You don't know any dog until you've seen in it in different situations. With strangers. With children. With small animals or other dogs. And of course a big dog can inflict horrific injuries. ANY big dog. Rottweilers have the greatest recorded bite strength in dogs, and grow to 140 lbs -- nearly twice the size of a large "Pit." You think they can't rip things off of a person?
One big anti-Pit person on the site is an Australian Shepherd aficionado. Great, beautiful dogs. But as noted above, the breed can be incredibly dangerous. They're smart and extremely athletic. They and their mixes have been involved in a number of terrifying attacks.
And children are at particular risk from dogs and any animal with a prey drive in general. They don't know how to socialize with a dog, and they can be perceived as food. And they can't fight back. Humans are responsible for making sure that doesn't result in tragedy.
Focusing on the type of dog based on anecdotes and news reports regarding the supposed breed is no different from reading crime reports where the assailant looks a certain way and drawing some conclusion about race or ethnicity.
Animals can be dangerous. Large animals can be more dangerous than small ones. Dogs are animals that exhibit a variety of behaviors related to breeding, innate temperament, training, and socialization. People need to be aware of that. If you want to focus your anger and anxiety somewhere, try irresponsible owners and breeders and people who are proud to have a "dangerous" dog, or don't bother to socialize or train their animals.
Okay?
DrDan
(20,411 posts)of course other breeds attack and do significant damage.
The evidence suggests, however, that pits are responsible way considerably more than their share. And their attacks are significantly more viscious. You did see the story about the little girl having her face torn away and tongue torn out, right?
As to the ambiguity charge - I see it working both ways. Some non-pits are id'ed as pits, and vice versa, some pits are not identified. You seem to be biased in one direction only.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)I give up. You can't identify the breed you're complaining about. You say it's about horrific attacks, but ignore Golden Retrievers ripping kids' legs off and Daschunds putting babies in critical condition. You don't acknowledge that bad people selectively breed the Scary Dog Du Jour.
And it's pointing out all of those holes in the Big Bad Pit Theory that's biased?
WHAT is it you're trying to assert here? Pits aren't the strongest dogs. They don't bite the hardest. They're not inherently vicious. They're overreported as attackers due to bias and ignorance. They weren't even a factor in dog attacks thirty years ago.
You seem really sure of something here.
"Pits" are strong and bite hard, and scummy people love them. That's all there is.
Why you're determined to make something else of it, and why you're so insulted by the factual information disproving anything else is beyond me.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)those are the facts - and no amount of excuses, lame defenses will hide them, much to the chagrin of the apologists
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Can you still not explain which of the three actual breeds you're talking about, at least?
American Pits?
Bull Terriers?
American Staffordshire Terriers?
Mixed breeds with big heads?
Seriously, when you talk about "pits" are you saying that these three breeds count as one or not?
Can you not acknowledge the impact of biased reporting and the subjective nature of breed identification as documented by the CDC?
Can you not acknowledge that the Pit hysteria is a new phenomenon, just like the hysteria over Shepherds and Dobies and Rottweilers?
You drag out horrific anecdotes of maimed children and imply this is conclusive of something damning, falsely conclude only one kind of dog does that, and acknowledge nothing when I spend all of three minutes finding you a half-dozen examples other, uncriticized breeds tearing off legs and stalking and mauling children.
Do you not understand that the choices of irresponsible people selecting one breed or group or another to torture into aggressive tendencies is the obvious reason so many dangerous "street dogs" fall in a certain pattern?
You don't think, for example, that if all the Staffies, American Pits, and Bull Terriers, which never had any kind of bad rep through the 1980s, for god's sake, in the world disappeared, that dog fighters and street breeders wouldn't just use more Mastiffs and Chow Chows and others?
It's a weirdly racist pattern of logic you're following. Drawing conclusions from anecdotes. Shrugging off counter examples and factual evidence. Eschewing logic for sarcasm and generalization.
It just doesn't make any sense.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)about your chosen target, but other horrific anecdotes are irrelevant? How does that work?
You keep repeating the gory details as though it justifies a leap from the specific to the general, but it doesn't. All kinds of dogs have done all kinds of damage.
You don't have a case that there is a type of dog you can look at and identify as more likely to do such a thing.
And how do you not get that bad owners self-select for certain types of dogs deemed scary by people with your exact point of view?
So again, I have to ask, what is this pattern you claim supposed to mean?
You really seem to want to say there is something wrong with a "type" of dog, which again, is apparently just any dog someone calls a "pit bull."
If you want to try to prove there's something inherently savage about American Staffordshire Terriers, American Pit Bulls, or Bull Terriers, please proceed.
Again, what is the conclusion you are trying to put forward? Should we ban bull terrier-type dogs? Are all dogs that have that flat head and that barrel chest lurking killers?
Trying to work with you here.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,343 posts)How does the OP of this thread even know he owns a Pit bull? Or the author of the book?
Or this guy and his "full blooded Pit Bulls":
Or this guy:
or these people:
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)It is my understanding that Chows are difficult to socialize and can be aggresive.
Personally, I believe there are too many pit bulls out there which are owned by irrespnsible owners. There are also too many guns out there which are owned by irresponsible owners.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)as well, and have a strong prey drive. The attack on the boy looked like hunting behavior. There are separate issues with children where they may surprise or startle a dog accidentally, or trigger a prey reaction. That dog acted like it was stalking game.
Regardless, yes, it's the owners. Deliberate bad breeding or socialization, and abuse, plus the popularity of certain breeds with people who are either irresponsible or malicious, fosters these Devil Dog myths.
adigal
(7,581 posts)Know what I'm saying??? I always, always talk to parents when they adopt a dog from me. I tell them to NEVER leave their dog alone with their kids, no matter how much they trust the dog. Kids will do stupid things, without meaning any harm, and a dog may react in fear.
Every single time I left the room I called my Great Dane and Lab and had them come with me. How? I'd give them a treat whenever we got where I was going. After a few times of this, they would always follow me!! Use common sense, people. Even in this thread, I see babies on dogs. NO!!!! NEVER!!! It is a bad idea. Maybe the dog is sore, maybe the baby will poke a finger in its eye. It's not fair to dogs what people let their kids do. That more kids aren't mauled is a testament to the wonder of a dog's loving nature.
Bigger dogs are actually safer, as they don't get hurt as easily and won't snap. I adopted out a dachshund who was a real brat. They put him right into training, at my insistence, because I was going to work with him myself. Pitbulls - never had a problem. Ever.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)Pit bulls rip out 6-year-old girl's tongue in attack
Two pit bulls were killed after they ripped out a 6-year-old girl's tongue in a vicious attack, CBS Cleveland reports.
Roughly eleven days ago, Zainabou Drame was slammed to the sidewalk by the dogs who then tore at her face. The dogs severed her tongue before they were killed by Cincinnati Police officers who responded to the scene.
"The pit bulls got Zaina because she was the smallest of the kids, like the jackals do with the herds on 'Wild Kingdom,'" he said. "One dog grabbed her face and literally tore it off. The other one pulled her mouth off. That hurt her tear duct. They've fixed that, and they reattached her face. (The dogs) broke her jaw, too. The doctors worked on that. They repaired her chin and changed the trach tube in her esophagus."
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/pit-bulls-rip-out-6-year-old-girls-tongue-in-attack/
What did this little girl do? Nothing but go outside to play. I guess she should have known better.
darned kids . . .
adigal
(7,581 posts)What was the background of these dogs??? If you read my WHOLE post, you would have seen that I said dogs shouldn't be completely trusted. They are animals!! And if you train them to be vicious, they will be vicious. That goes for Golden Retrievers, one of which bit the shit out of my son, and Yorkies, one of whom bit me. Those are the only dogs that bit us in seven years of dog rescue and both of those dogs were owned by my family members.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)adigal
(7,581 posts)Top three are Dachshunds, Jack Russells and Chihuahas. The most docile, supposedly, the Goldens, is the only breed that ever bit my own kids, and we had thousands of rescue dogs in and out of our house.
Their attacks are sensationalized, just like a blonde girl being kidnapped.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)please show me a link to the last Jack Russell attack where a face was torn off and tongue ripped out
adigal
(7,581 posts)Friend some rescue groups and see the photos on Facebook. When you give your dog away., or sell your pit pup, there's a good chance that dog will be used for bait.
Yet we cheer Michael Vick playing football. Yay! Fucker can play football!
I don't generally curse online, but the whole pitbull fighting business, it just makes me want to scream. They are generally sweet dogs. In bad hands, they can be dangerous. But so can Shepherds, Dobies, Rotties. Millions are sweet family dogs.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Can you show me the last time a Jack Russell or Chihuaha did that?
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)Fortunately we got to him in time.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)One bite and it was done.
adigal
(7,581 posts)they know who do bad things. It's the same thing here - prejudice. You don't want to be informed. You want to feel hatred and fear. It's addictive, you know. And not good for you.
DrDan
(20,411 posts)I would think you would show some concern for the victims . . . but have come to know better.
adigal
(7,581 posts)I feel for every living creature in the world, especially children. And I would give my life to protect a child from a dog, or a hurricane or a fire or whatever. My point is that pitbulls get the publicity, just like when a blonde girl goes missing. How many children of color are killed or go missing every month?? And do we ever hear about them? No. We just hear about the ones who are white, middle class or better and blonde.
Same here. Many dogs attack, but pits get publicity. For my money, I mistrust german shepherds more than any other breed. As a child, I was bitten by two of them.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Anecdote. Anecdote. "See!"
Response to counter-anecdote, showing good behavior, or bad behavior of others:
"Well, there are good ones -- a few, probably -- and bad others, but not many, so ... (insinuation of genetically determined inferiority / penchant for evil.)"
I guess deciding that genetics make for good or bad character is just easier for people than understanding things like meaningless naming conventions, cultural patterns, or confirmation bias, but I thought we had a smarter crew here.
I have a "pit bull" story. Visiting a friend in a small rural town. Nice family with several dogs, living on a small lake in the forest. I had met the Shepherd-mix (friendly) but not the Pit-looking one.
Laid down on a chaise by the lake to dry off, and here she comes: "Molly." Head the size of a manhole cover, chest to match. Muscles on top of muscles. I observed her demeanor carefully -- no question big dogs demand extra vigilance -- and we'd not been introduced.
She ambled up calmly and laid her gigantic noggin smack on my chest. "Pet me, please." Among the sweeter dogs I've met.
TheCowsCameHome
(40,169 posts)Seriously, you can't make this shit up
adigal
(7,581 posts)You can't make up the shit I see here.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)get the red out
(13,468 posts)I wish more could be done about all the backyard breeders pumping out litters of pit bulls, with so many ending up euthanized in shelters. That really bothers me, this type of dog seems especially prone to human abuse and thoughtless breeding, probably because a certain element wants one in order to "feel tough" rather than because they love the dog. There will never be enough homes for the ones who land in shelters so long as people are pumping out litter after litter trying to make buck.
dballance
(5,756 posts)A few weeks ago we had the most loving Pit Bull at our shelter. It was clear from his injuries he was recently part of a Michael Vick sort of a dog-fighting establishment. It was quite apparent to all of us at the shelter that he was not the aggressive sort of fighting type. So it's no wonder he was abandoned and came to us.
He was quite the loving lap dog. Well, maybe not just my lap but all over my body kind of love. He wasn't a small dog. We, here at the Oregon Humane Society are not exactly a "no-kill" shelter. I'd say we're a "low-kill" shelter. We will euthanize animals that are very ill with no chance of recovery. We will euthanize animals that have a severe, and I do mean severe, history of biting and aggression. We do our best to rehabilitate animals that have aggression issues and try to get them to the point where they can be adopted. Fortunately, we succeed in those efforts more than we fail.
adigal
(7,581 posts)De Leonist
(225 posts)I generally try not to do kneejerk. But some of the posts on this thread have pissed me off beyond belief.
Seriously go volunteer at a shelter and ask the fulltime staff just how "bad" pit bulls are. I mean fuck have any you even met a pit bull ?
Are pit bulls high energy dogs ? Yes Are they very strong dogs ? Yes With these two facts you can see why some grade triple A assholes will use them for fighting.
Yet you can take an animal who through human abuse has become this
and with love and understanding that same dog can become this
These dogs are incredibly strong hearted. Most of the dogs right now that are being used to satisfy some sick bastard's sadistic urges
could be rehabilitated and become incredibly loving and gentle companions for wonderful families and owners.
That any of you would rather see them put down instead of for once in their so far cruel lives know the joy of a loving owner or family grieves and angers me past the point of words.
Just one final word on dogs in general.The Dog is quite literally the first animal that humankind has ever domesticated. However it may have happened these loving and loyal creatures have been with us long before humankind ever built anything even resembling civilization. They hunted, slept, and journeyed alongside our ancestors. They watched our backs, protected our food stores, kept a watchful eye on our children as they played ready to spring to their defense if any animal should seek to predate them. They warmed us on colds nights when our ancestors huddled together close to the fire. Even than in the depths of our stone age past when things became harsh and our clan and kin would die from disease or starvation these animals would offer us their love and do what they could to ease our grief.( Anyone who has had a pit bull or has had a lot of contact with pit bulls knows that this is doubly true with them. That breed knows a strength of heart that I doubt you'd see in most humans) These animals are our best friends. If we had any real inkling of their love and willingness to sacrifice themselves for us we would not treat them this way.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)one of which came over our fence and savagely dismantled our family dog in front of my screaming wife and son.
De Leonist
(225 posts)and my condolences on the loss of the canine member of your family. But here's why hate or fear of this breed as a whole is ultimately futile. Animals(including dogs) just like people are products of their environment and upbringing. The animal that attacked that little girl was a shattered, broken, and twisted version of it's self. You cannot raise or hold any creature(that includes people by the way) in a neglectful, deprived, and passively abusive environment and expect it not to acquire considerable damage to it's mental and emotional psyche.
The reason that individual animal was so damaged is the same reason why a non-violent offender who goes into a maximum security prison as a young man who is not known for violence can come out years later older and far more violent than he was when he went in. Cruel surroundings and living conditions scar and wound the hearts and minds of any creature subjected to such a thing.
I do not know what the issue was with the animal that attacked your dog and obviously horrified your family. But I can tell you that I was attacked by a pit bull at young age. It wasn't any where near the scale of the little girl in the news but enough that I needed stitches. I never understood why the dog attacked me and I too became afraid of the breed. But it wasn't until I met an owner who adopted numerous rescued pit bulls all of whom had come from violent pasts that I understood that these dogs are not the monsters that so many believe or want to believe that they are and that all these dogs really want is to know love.
Your fear will not stop them from being abused and brutalized by cruel people nor will it stop severely damaged and maladjusted animals from possibly causing pain to others. I do not mean to say that Pit Bulls are perfect dogs. No breed is perfect and no individual dog is perfect. But even Pit Bulls who were severely abused are capable of rehabilitation and eventual adoption. I'd have a pit bull myself right now if I had the space and financial resources to provide the dog with a loving and safe environment.
The fact is pit bulls are not the villains in this issue nor the monsters you may think them to be. They are victims as much as any human who is the victim of the tragically blind aggression of an emotionally and mentally traumatized animal.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)and as far as i can tell he never abused or neglected it. In a conversation we had after the event he shared his shock and dismay, telling me the dog was always a sweetheart and never acted aggressively. He told me it was a good companion who slept at the foot of his bed... I have a couple of similar experiences I could relate about this breed. They all share the same features; dogs who are harmless until they're not and dumbfounded owners...
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)My little brother was hospitalized after the neighbor's Chihuahua bit clean through the tendons in his ankle.
Your story is heartbreaking, I am truly sorry for the hell you and your family have gone through but not all pit bulls are savage beasts that tear apart everything in their path.
All dogs are capable of aggression, the focus should be on education.
1. low cost/free spay and neuter
2. enact laws that will penalize backyard breeders and prevent pet stores from selling live animals
4. provide low cost/free obedience classes to new owners
4. support your local shelters
The top 10 reasons to spay/neuter your cat and dog just died in a shelter.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Seems like a horrible thing to ask, but if we're attempting to equate the destructive potential of all dogs (as it seems you are), I'd like to know how bad the dane attack was. My apology if it's insensitive to inquire.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)The destructive potential of a pit bull is not greater than that of a 200+ lb. Great Dane.
My bf's childhood family dog was a beautiful Golden Retriever named Buddy, he and his brothers were practically raised by that animal.
One day Buddy viciously attacked and seriously maimed a boy who walked into his enclosure to pet him, he was shot on sight.
The memory of witnessing the attack, hundred thousand dollar lawsuits, endless hospital bills and a lifetime of regret and guilt prevented him from owning another dog for most of his life.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)and glad you recovered well. One of the questions that comes up about pit bulls is whether or not they are more ferocious and singleminded when they decide to attack. A typical claim adherents make is that pits are no different than any other breed in terms of power or behavior. Another is that the disproportionately large number of severe injuries and deaths attributed to the breed is solely because of abuse at the hands of their owners. Is this your belief? Unfortunately, it doesn't square with my experience.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)That includes my opinion regarding pit bulls.
I love animals, all of them. I have been a strict vegetarian for over 20 years and a fierce animal rights advocate for most of my life.
As such I have heard more horror stories than I care to remember, more than I can bear.
The villain in my story is not a dog, the bane of my existence and the evil presence in my nightmares is man.
That is something my dogs and I have in common.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Any big dog can bite hard enough to severely injure someone. Any dog can hurt a child. My friend was maimed by a Lab. He still has the scars on his face.
Dogs bite. Big dogs can bite harder than smaller ones. Aggressive dogs bite aggressively.
But people like simple answers, and like to think they can identify the "bad ones" by sight. No one likes to think "Buddy" or Flower or Fifi have jaws and teeth that, in the wrong circumstances, can result in tragedy.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)There is a reason why responsible shelters and rescue groups do not place intact males of any breed.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Glad your encounter wasn't any worse than you describe.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Irrational fear and hatred does more harm than good.
You have more patience than I.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)... this topic presses my "social justice" button. We don't accept anecdotes as evidence that people who look a certain way or have a certain background can be generalized, so why dogs? There is breeding for temperament, yes, but that varies and also cannot be seen externally. I also get that big muscular dogs can do tremendous damage when they're aggressive, whether by breeding or training or bad socialization.
But the mythology has gotten bizarre regarding the horrors of "pit bulls." There's something to love about every type of dog, and the fact that horrible people have brutalized some of the big terriers into becoming fighting and junkyard dogs doesn't mean there is suddenly something wrong with every dog with a big flat head and a barrel chest. I remember when Shepherds were the "scary" breed, then the Dobermans on "Magnum, P.I." Zeus! Apollo! Heel!
Thank you, for sharing your knowledge and experiences here. Real dog people know every dog is different, and every situation requires responsible and watchful humans to make sure things don't go wrong.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Which breed of pit bull is it?
adigal
(7,581 posts)joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Explain to this 6 year old why he has no penis or testicles. Explain to him how he can normally live the rest of his life. Explain how he can have a perfectly normal courting experience with women. Explain to him how he can normally have kids.
And then tell him it had nothing to do with the breed of dog that attacked him while he was 3 and playing in his yard.
De Leonist
(225 posts)Look man, if you want to have a contest of who's got the worst pit bull bite story you win. If what you say is true than that is tragic beyond words.
But you if honestly think it's the breed in general that is ferocious than I hate to disappoint you but no that is just not the reality. Any vet, breeder, or trainer worth their salt will confirm what I'm saying.
You seem to assume that breeds are carbon copies of each other in terms of traits or personalities.
Again that is not the case. Pit Bulls are not guns. These are living creatures who just like humans are capable of developing personalities unique to them. Those personalities may not show the complexities that humans exhibit but that doesn't mean they are any less real.
I cannot say why that dog attacked that boy. But blaming it on the breed its' self is no more the reality than if someone blamed it on satan.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)No one is saying pit bulls are more ferocious than other breeds. We are saying the damage they can do in seconds far surpasses that of other breeds.
De Leonist
(225 posts)It's certainly true that pit bulls have a stronger bite force than many other breeds of dog. Though as far I know there are dogs with a far stronger bite force than theirs.
This being the case what do you propose people should do about it ?
Increased regulation of dog ownership ?
Breed Specific Legislation ?
Required Spaying and Neutering of all pit bulls except maybe a few who are in the possession of a small number of heavily regulated and monitored breeders ? (That's not a bad idea actually, for all dog breeds)
pnwmom
(108,995 posts)And showing that it's not only dogs with a history of aggression that are being put down?
Our local humane society always seems to have plenty of pit bulls . . . and chihuahuas.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)dangerous.
Was it the golden retriever/border collie mix with the flowing golden fur or the pit mix with the short fur and the big head? They both escaped their dog pen, ran around the neighborhood and finally 1 bit someone. Animal control came out and took the dog who bit to be destroyed.
Answer, the first was immediately taken to be killed. They wanted to take the second "just in case", even though the person was bit said that dog was nowhere in the area, but decided to leave her with a strong warning that if she ever got loose again, she would be destroyed also.
adigal
(7,581 posts)was my brother's Golden Retriever. My son was at the table, eating a hamburger. He went after my son's hamburger, my son pulled his hand away, he bit his hand, my son turned and jumped up, he didn't stop, he jumped on my son's back and bit the shit out of him. Would you all like to see the pictures of the bites???
I think we need to ban Golden Retrievers. They are inbred killing machines.
War Horse
(931 posts)Pits are either monsters or angels.
A properly socialized pit can be a fantastic pet. A poorly socialized one can be a nightmare. Yes, the demonisation is unfair. But owning a breed such as a pit, an akita inu or even a greenland dog is a huge responsibility. It just isn't the same as having a lab or a g. retreiver. Or even a GSD or a rottweilwer.
I've known pits that were absolute sweethearts, and great with kids. I've also seen the havoc they can wreak. When things go haywire, they don't seem to have an "off" switch, like GSDs, rottweilers, dobermans, ridgebacks, you name it, have. Pretending that pits are "just like any other breed" don't do them any favors. I'm saying this as a dog person who hates to see the demonsation of pits.
De Leonist
(225 posts)Pits just aren't dogs for people who don't either have the time and/or patience to handle such a high energy animal. Personally I think that's what ends up happening with a lot of the ones that do snap. Owners that don't give them the opportunity to wear off their rather amazingly high stores of energy or owners that don't have the time to give them the attention they need.
War Horse
(931 posts)It's the same with any breed. It's all up to whatever responsibility the owner shows.
Responsible owners do their homework. Sadly, there are a lot irresponsible owners. I don't think anyone has any real answers here. I get those who want to ban certain breeds, I really do. I know what it feels like when your dog gets attacked. My almost 100 pounds, very effective at getting rid of anyone up to no good, not afraid of anything except extremely huge CAT machines, which scared him for some reason, German Shepherd got attacked by a pit mix, and he needed extensive surgery afterwards.
So I get the "ban pits" sentiment. I also get the "what do we ban next" worries that many express.
Llewlladdwr
(2,165 posts)De Leonist
(225 posts)An "assault dog" Really?....Really?
It's true that they are strong dogs with a lot of endurance and energy. I don't think anyone is denying that.
But that's really the only thing that makes people choose them as guard dogs or, heaven forbid, fighting dogs.
The truth is while certain breeds are bred for certain tendencies and traits all breeds have a range of personalities. That goes for the 3 different breeds of dog that we call pit bulls. The aggression you see in dogs that were used for fighting was trained into them not inborn.
Though to be fair some dogs are just "really unfriendly", individual dogs mind you though, not breeds. Why ? Who knows
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)thanks to online rescue sites that show the horrific abuse they suffer, and what wonderful dogs they can be with a lot of TLC and rehab. I'm stepping up now to transport, and hope to foster in retirement.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)What I see are big, dopey, loyal dogs who want nothing more than to please. Between the rehabilitated Vick dogs and Patrick, I was hooked.
And Thor!
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)(technically my son does, but you know how that goes). She is the love of my life.
I don't have the time or the energy to foster rescues, but am grateful for those that do.
No it was not sarcasm
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)My "baby" looks just like the dog in the first one.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Thank you for your efforts and compassion.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)I just read through the whole thread and am sorry to hear of what you and your little bro went through.
There's a shelter in my state that saves dogs that have been sodomized -- yes, sodomized -- and others forced into fighting. They're about as country as they come, and damn if they don't love their pits:
Licking the top of the head is a nice touch!
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Finding a reason to forgive animals is easy, I am not so generous when it comes to people.
Looking at your pictures has been the highlight of my day.
WorseBeforeBetter
(11,441 posts)We all remember poor Patrick's "before" photos -- look at him now, winning awards 'n stuff. I love that dog.
Nite!
malokvale77
(4,879 posts)adopted one of Vick's badly abused dogs.
Then their was the local politician who wanted to give Vick the honorary key to the city.
I prefer the dog advocate.
Edited to add - Does any one here remember "The Little Rascals" and "Our Gang"?
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)As noted up thread there is more than one breed, not to mention millions of existing Bull hybrids.
killbotfactory
(13,566 posts)I have no problem with letting our daughter play with him, and last night he snuck into her bed and slept next to her. He even loves our cat. If he's supposed to be a killing machine, he sucks at it.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)If these are such great dogs, why are their owners surrendering them?
baldguy
(36,649 posts)In any case, it's not the dogs fault. They're the victims in your example.
*Gee whiz. I wonder which coward it was that alerted me on my own thread? Hmmmmm.....
kwassa
(23,340 posts)The dogs are what they are, and something about them caused the owners to surrender them.
You're just wrong.
beam me up scottie
(57,349 posts)Vicious dogs are not kept in the shelter and put up for adoption.
You don't need a good reason to surrender your pet, most have been thrown away by assholes who just didn't want them anymore.
The kind of people who abandon an animal they shouldn't have had to begin with are the problem, it's not the dog's fault.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)roody
(10,849 posts)They did not train or exercise them. They were no longer a cute little puppy. They could not manage their neglected, unsocialized dog, and they did not want to walk it.
adigal
(7,581 posts)That's why. They really and truly are very very sweet dogs!!
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)I don't think the issue is as difficult to comprehend as people are pretending.
There has been a trend, among HUMANS, of taking a group of larger terrier breeds, street-breeding them, dogfighting them, using them for generalized badass cred and so forth.
Take a burly, energetic, people-pleasing dog, and work on making it nasty for a while, and you get a nasty dog.
The ones that are surrendered may actually be the nice ones that didn't turn out vicious enough for the idiotic people pursuing them. Recall Mr. Vick and his drowning, electrocuting, and beating to death dogs that refused to fight, or didn't fight well.
Thirty or forty years ago no one thought big terriers were mean. The RCA dog. The one on Little Rascals. As someone noted, they were thought of as "nursemaids" in England.
Surely basic intelligence and reasoning can answer the question of why the dogs with the scary name and the big rep for being tought circulate among scary people with scary motives and no real love for dogs?
How seriously stupid would we have to be to conclude that all these dogs, loved for a century or more, still owned and cherished by millions of decent dog people, are suddenly horrible Devil Dogs out to kill everyone?
kwassa
(23,340 posts)or at any other age.
I think you are rationalizing why a ridiculous percentage of pit bulls are surrendered by their owners.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Last edited Thu Jun 19, 2014, 07:17 PM - Edit history (1)
I notice that like other specious types of thought, no one seems to want to enunciate their actual theory on the problem with this particular group of dog breeds.
Please proceed.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)and I'm not sure that anybody does. Perhaps it is a result of the breeding.
Speaking of specious, that is my opinion of the bad owner thesis. It is completely unconvincing, as are most of the counter-arguments. Nothing you or others in this thread has come close to convincing me of the innocence of these dogs. There are bad dogs in this world; to believe anything else is a form of sentimentalism.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)No different in logic than racism. A short-circuit to thinking. Anecdote A = genetic defect of group B.
A relative was once savagely attacked by a man of another race. Broken bottle. I was told, although he never showed any such inclination to me, that he was forever wary of "those people" for the rest of his life.
In one sense, it's a normal feature of human psychology to generalize by looks based on one experience. But overall, it's a maladaptive strategy and poor thinking, particularly with beings as vastly varied and individualized as people or domestic dogs.
There ARE of course a lot terrible dogs out there that fall into the vast, ambiguous, looks-based category reported as "pit bulls." You have the Michael Vicks of the world to thank for that, however, not the fact that a dog has "bull" somewhere in its name. Bulldogs, terriers, and all their vast and sundry varieties and mixes simply comprise a form factor from which a dangerous animal can arise. Many other breeds and looks can be equally dangerous. Years ago all the badasses and drug dealers had Shepherd or Doberman mixes. Same mythology of the Unstoppably Murderous Dog.
Do away with everything people call Pits today, and tomorrow the headlines will scream about the savage Malamute attack, and a few will conclude that Malamutes have locking jaws or were "designed to kill people" or what have you.
Concluding that there is something inherently wrong with a dog based on the way it looks or what it is called is simply irrational.
Can't state it any more simply than that. You are of course entitled to disagree.
uppityperson
(115,681 posts)thank you
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)Pit bull bites girl, 4, in Boynton Beach
Owner says Max is a 'good dog' and was just being protective
June 18, 2014
BOYNTON BEACH, Fla. A 4-year-old girl is recovering after being bitten by a pit bull while she was in front of her Boynton Beach home.
Zamaria Williams was bitten Tuesday while she was playing in her front yard, according to a report by Boynton Beach police.
ALSO: 10-Foot Gator May Have Eaten Pit Bull
The pit bull escaped from his yard after the gate was accidentally left open, the report said. Williams was bitten on the left side of her waist area and on her upper left ankle.
"I looked back and the dog had my baby," said the girl's mother Charlette Light. "She was crying. She was just looking at me."....
http://www.theintell.com/news/local/horsham-police-investigating-reported-pit-bull-attack/article_80a325c8-98a3-5bca-a48a-9552f639afe3.html
Horsham police investigating reported pit bull attack
Posted: Wednesday, June 18, 2014
HORSHAM A 72-year-old man said he was attacked by two pit bulls Sunday afternoon, according to Horsham police.
James McLaughlin, of Willow Grove, reported that the dogs bit his wrist and left knee and left him bleeding as he was walking along an access road near the 1000 block of Horsham Road...
http://www.knoe.com/story/25808816/pitbull-attacks-12-year-old-washington-la-boy
Pitbull attacks 12-year-old Washington, La. boy
Posted: Jun 18, 2014 11:31 AM EDT
WASHINGTON, La. (KNOE 8 News/AP) - Police say a 12-year-old Washington boy is in the hospital after a pit bull attack.
Police Chief Ronelle Broussard says his office was informed of the attack around 1:30 p.m. Tuesday.
Broussard says the animal allegedly attacked the investigating officer, forcing the officer to shoot and kill the dog.
Opelousas General Health System admitted the boy for injuries to his arm and stomach...
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)HA! YOU CAN'T!
Therefore you are not qualified to post on this topic.
/satire
flvegan
(64,416 posts)LOL!
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)n/t
flvegan
(64,416 posts)I don't know prejudice. I don't know speciesism. Maybe you can help me with understanding those things.
That said, I can also state that I've taken more of that breed out of bad situations as an unknown to them, and I've never been bitten by any of them.
Fighters, bait, mistreated, starved, ignored, tortured and left for dead. I've seen it all. Not one bite. And rehabbing them is...well, check out the Vicktory dogs. I've lost friends over that pile of shit, Vick. But then, football. And this isn't about me.
Tell Merritt Clifton to call me so he can have a proper bit of research. Fucking idiot. Maybe his next investigation is "Was George W. Bush a great president? Yes! I have moronic media accounts that make it so."
But then maybe there's some agreement there.
theHandpuppet
(19,964 posts)Posted on June 17, 2014
KENNEWICK, Wash. A woman is recovering from dog bite wounds she received in a pit bull attack Sunday at a home in Kennewick.
Police said Judy Phillips suffered severe bites on her arm and leg.
The Tri-City Herald reported medics found her on the driveway of the house, and the pit bull was inside where another woman had locked herself and a young child in a bedroom. Police helped them escape out a window.
Benton County Animal Control captured the dog and is holding it in quarantine.
Phillips was reported in satisfactory condition by Sunday afternoon at Kadlec Regional Medical Center in Richland.
http://www.yakimaherald.com/news/latestnews/2266129-8/pit-bull-attack-puts-woman-in-hospital
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)who agrees that an education program about pit bulls is a good idea MUST agree that an an education program about gun safety is equally as important.
Separation
(1,975 posts)Thankfully it was during the winter and I only needed stitches on my face and ears. I was walking down the street on base housing when he jumped the fence and bolted straight for me. I was 9 when it happened, I didn't have a chance in hell to defend myself. After what seemed like an eternity 3 adults came out and beat/choked him off of me. The owner said that this was the first time he had ever done anything like this.
The dog was quarantined for a week to be sure it wasn't rabid and them given back to the owners. Nowadays certain breeds are no longer allowed on base housing.
So call me biased but I won't go into a house with a pit, and tell my kids to stay away from em.
adigal
(7,581 posts)I have done dog rescue for seven years, taking dogs from high kill shelters in the south and bringing them north. It has gotten much better - most shelters don't kill puppies in the numbers they used to (they would take owner surrenders right from the front back to the gas chamber and put them in. I will have nightmares the rest of my life from this experience) and they try to place most other dogs. But pits - they still get killed by the millions, even in the northeast.
I have one who was due to die a few weeks ago sitting at my feet. My cat just taught this 8 month old puppy a valuable lesson - don't mess with the cat!! He is just the sweetest, goofiest boy, and he is ready to go to a new home. He is a doll!!
NCTraveler
(30,481 posts)And the headline of the article is in opposition to the first paragraph.
gwheezie
(3,580 posts)Any of them could maim someone. I have 3 horses and a mule any of them could kick you in the head. I have goats any of them could gore you.
I've had 3 pit bulls over the years, not one bit anyone. The only dog I've had who bit someone was a stray hound I was trying to turn into a pet and he bit me. My dogs don't run loose except for the working dog who lives with the goats. My dogs are big they are confined no child is allowed to enter their yard. I don't allow anyone to enter the pack dogs will pack up any breed is capable. Dog only greet people while on a lead. I would euthanize a dog who is aggressive but as a dog owner I have to not put them in a situation that would require them to think before acting. I've had very smart dogs none of them are expected to make a judgement call.