Should Gregg Williams be charged? Maybe with conspiracy to commit assault?

[Stinky The Clown]

He's the Saints Defensive Coordinator. His head coach is also suspended.

The names of the players that perpetrated the mayhem on their opponents are also becoming known. Are they also conspirators?

Some years ago there was a somewhat similar sort of thing in the NHL. A player was charged criminally as a result of an unfair/illegal hit during a match.

Yes, these are sports events. My question has nothing to do with their games and everything to do with who is liable to comply with the law.

[SteveABG]

1. Absolutely

It's disgusting what he called for.

Pointing out guys who had concussions, telling his players to hit them in the head.

Telling them to try to tear another guy's ACL.

Football is a rough enough game. It doesn't need this crap.

[Mopar151]

2. Nothing new, either

Remember Art Donovan on Carson, talking about the old days of the NFL? A player was allowed to play with a hard cast "They should have give him a gun! At least that would be merciful!"

[Fastcars]

3. The Lack Of Any Injuries Makes Me Think Not

If they had tape of him calling for the actions and someone had carried them out G Williams would probably be in a world of hurt.

The Giants defensive coordinator pointed out the fact that a 49er running back had several concussions earlier in the season and he was hurt in the game against the Giants. Giants defensive players have said in interviews that was part of the game plan.

Greg Williams deserves to be punished, but the pointing out injuries to be targeted is and has been a very common thing in the NFL. One of the Hasselbecks was on ESPN earlier today and he said the ONLY reason he could think of for a defensive coach to pass out the opposing teams injury report is for the defensive players to target those injuries and that every team he had ever played on did exactly that.

William needs to pay a price, and it should be a high one, but he shouldn't be the only one. Nor should the Saints be the only team.

[MrSlayer]

4. No, how absurd.

You could indict every single coach and defensive player in the league for assault as the object of the game is to knock the snot out of the guy with the ball. The bigger the hit, the better. The "outrage" over a practice that has gone on from the sport's infancy and will continue is misplaced. This isn't tiddlywinks you know.

[Kalidurga]

5. Yes, he should be charged.

There is nothing new to hard hitting in football. But, it takes it to an unconscionable level to target specific injuries, especially head injuries. It's just a game, but this guy wanting to cripple people for life is beyond the pale.

They should also do some digging and find out how wide spread this practice is and go after other coaches/teams if need be.

[exboyfil]

6. After this tape does anyone think

Williams will ever coach organized football again (unless it is the Arena League)? He is done irrespective of the suspension. Do you think any college program would pick him up?

[Are_grits_groceries]

7. No.

Last edited Fri Apr 6, 2012, 07:32 AM - Edit history (1)

As much as people want to do so, it would be hard to prove.

If I was a defense attorney, I would show hit after hit from many games and many teams. They would look no worse than the hits they are showing on tv involving the Saints. I would also call players to testify about pregame speeches by their coaches. Many of them are on tv saying this is standard fare. Even if money might not be involved, it would still be an intent to maim.

In addition, i would also call the lineman who end up in a lot of scrums. I would ask them to tell what goes on in those dogpiles. That is more hidden, but it is nasty and potentially ruinous.

Some of the very people that are so horrified are the same people who love the 'jacked up' hits. They love the end process, but they hate hearing how the sausage is made.

MAKE NO MISTAKE, Roger Goodell is taking this stand because of lawsuits from head injuries. The NFL did nothing about head injuries or marginal hits for years.

Look at the helmets. They are really worse than the old leather head gear because there is no give to absorb any force. With all the advancements in science, the NFL made no attempt to really improve helmets for a long time. The ones that are better now are still much farther behind in technology than they ought to be.

Goodell is also complicit because he ignored evidence from some researchers about brain lesions found in players who died while very young. He barred them from an NFL conference on brain injuries. In addition, the doctor who headed their program on dealing with head injuries was not a neurologist or any type of doctor who dealt with neurological issues. That speaks voumes about how the NFL viewed this matter for years.

I could go on. Williams said on tape what is standard in many ways. Players scour injury lists to determine what areas are vulnerable. Bill Belichik has a reason for being so vague about injuries.

One of my peeves is that they don't tackle. The players make every effort to just smash an opponent and the helmet usually plays a major part. They don't care if they are getting a good dose of problems themselves.

Don't watch the games if it is upsetting. The Saints may have taken it one step too far, but the others are close behind in that parade. Don't think that because one team has been smacked that the others are innocent or that it will stop. IMHO the issues will just go underground and players will be more careful about talking about it. These types of injuries will still occur and with intent.

[Stinky The Clown]

8. You know that using the term "clutching their pearls" is offensive to some DUers

I think they alert on it when they see it.

[Are_grits_groceries]

9. I can't keep up.

Thanks!
I changed it.
(I put 'clutching their cojones.' just kidding)

[Stinky The Clown]

10. Hahaha

You *should* have. That would have been too funny!

[Johonny]

11. No

because as many players have said, the language he used is not uncommon in locker rooms. What he did was against NFL policy in paying players to injure other players, but it has happened before with no arrest. Also the speech he gave isn't uncommon. As many ex-NFL players have said sure where's the mic of what the were saying in the 49ner locker room. I don't think there is a winning case for a DA to make. Basically it isn't likely the US criminal courts will be able to do much against him. No the civil courts... I think he and the Saints can expect civil lawsuits coming there way. You already have head injury cases coming into the NFL. This is only going to help those cases.

[hifiguy]

12. No. But he should never be allowed to coach

again at any level. I heard the tape on Sports Center last night and it was inexcusable. Football is by definition a tough game. Giving players direct instructions to headhunt is well beyond the pale.

[alcibiades_mystery]

13. Given the head slam focus, thank Gawd George Zimmerman didn't play pro football...

[Sgent]

14. It won't happen

there is no way that a New Orleans DA will indict him for this, period.

Since the only provable allegations happened in New Orleans, I don't see how anyone else could charge.

[Kaleva]

15. A link to an audio recording of William's locker room speech

http://theusof.com/

I don't think he's ever going to coach in the NFL again.

[bluedigger]

16. No.

There are other ways to punish him besides criminal charges that would be difficult to prove and consume resources New Orleans needs for bigger problems.

[Stinky The Clown]

17. The NHL has seen criminal charges leveled and convictions gained

Yes, it is a hard hitting sport, too. But there are limits. There ought to be limits in football, too.

Here's the NHL police blotter, most of which happened in Canada, but there were US incidents, too.

1905 - Allan Loney is charged with manslaughter in the on-ice clubbing death of Alcide Laurin. Loney claimed self-defence, and was found not guilty.[5]
1907 - Ottawa Senators players Harry Smith, Alf Smith and Charles Spittal were charged with assault after beating Montreal Wanderers players, Hod Stuart, Ernie "Moose" Johnson and Cecil Blatchford with their sticks.
1907 - Ottawa Victorias player Charles Masson is charged with manslaughter after Cornwall player Owen McCourt dies of a head wound sustained in a brawl. Masson is found not guilty on the grounds that there was no way to know which blow had killed McCourt.[6]
1922 - Sprague Cleghorn injured three Ottawa Senators players in a brawl, leading Ottawa police to offer to arrest him.
1969 - In a pre-season game held in Ottawa, Ted Green of the Boston Bruins and Wayne Maki of the St.Louis Blues engaged in a violent, stick-swinging brawl. A fractured skull and brain damage caused Green to miss the entire 1969–1970 NHL season.[7] The NHL suspended Maki for 30 days and Green for 13 games. Both men were acquitted in court.
1975 - Dan Maloney of the Detroit Red Wings was charged with assault causing bodily harm after he attacked Brian Glennie of the Toronto Maple Leafs from behind. In exchange for a no-contest plea, Maloney did community service work and was banned from playing in Toronto for two seasons.
1975 - Police charged Bruins player Dave Forbes with aggravated assault after a fight with Henry Boucha of the Minnesota North Stars. After a nine-day trial ended with a hung jury, charges against Forbes were dropped. Boucha suffered blurred vision from the incident and never fully recovered.
1976 - Philadelphia Flyers players Joe Watson, Mel Bridgman, Don Saleski and Bob "Hound" Kelly were charged with assault after using their hockey sticks as weapons in a violent playoff game between the Flyers and the Toronto Maple Leafs in which fans had been taunting the Flyers players and spitting at them. Bridgman was acquitted, but the other three Flyers were found guilty of simple assault.
1976 - Calgary Cowboys forward Rick Jodzio plead guilty to a charge of assault following a cross-check to the head of Quebec Nordiques player Marc Tardif during the World Hockey Association playoffs. The hit led to a 20-minute bench clearing brawl.[8]
1977 - Dave "Tiger" Williams of the Toronto Maple Leafs hit Pittsburgh Penguin Dennis Owchar with his stick. He was charged with assault, but acquitted.
1982 - Jimmy Mann of the Winnipeg Jets left the bench and sucker-punched Pittsburgh Penguin Paul Gardner, breaking Gardner's jaw in two places. Mann was fined $500 and given a suspended sentence in Winnipeg.
1988 - Dino Ciccarelli hit Leafs defenceman Luke Richardson with his stick. Charged and convicted of assault, he was sentenced to one day in jail and fined $1,000.
1998 - Jesse Boulerice of the Plymouth Whalers was suspended for the rest of the playoffs after violently swinging his stick at Guelph Storm forward Andrew Long. Boulerice was charged with assault as a result of the incident.
2000 - Marty McSorley of the Boston Bruins hit Vancouver Canuck Donald Brashear in the head with his stick in the waning moments of the game, after losing a fight to Brashear earlier in the game. McSorley was convicted of assault with a weapon and given an 18-month conditional discharge.
2004 - After repeated failed attempts at instigating a fight, Todd Bertuzzi of the Vancouver Canucks sucker-punched Steve Moore of the Colorado Avalanche in the back of the head, knocking Moore unconscious. The pair then fell to the ice with Bertuzzi's weight crushing Moore face-first into the ice, followed by several players from both teams further piling onto the mêlée. Moore sustained three fractured vertebrae, a grade three concussion, vertebral ligament damage, stretching of the brachial plexus nerves, and facial lacerations. Bertuzzi was charged by police, and given a conditional discharge after pleading guilty to assault causing bodily harm. His suspension resulted in a loss of $500,000 in pay and the Canucks were fined $250,000. Bertuzzi was re-instated in 2005; Moore has not played since and made several unsuccessful attempts at civil litigation.

[cthulu2016]

18. How many players are you planning to charge with assault?

You see the problem... it isn't illegal to conspire to commit an act that is not illegal.

For him to be criminaly liable we would first need to live in a world where NFL players were routinely charged with assault for hits.

Being paid to do something doesn't bootstrap it into a crime. The acual hits all happened and were assault or not independent of whether someone was paid extra for them. (NFL players are paid for all hits, since it is part of the job they're paid for.)

Nobody was charged with assault for the hits.