Why are we spying on Germany?

[Lionel Mandrake]

Are we trying to get the Germans to hate us? Do we wish to see Germany aligned with Russia? WTF?

[alsame]

1. I suspect we spy on

everyone, we just happened to get caught by Germany.

[Lionel Mandrake]

12. Yes and no.

You and several others have given essentially the same answer. But there are different levels of espionage. We don't try to listen in on the telephone conversations of most heads of state. Angela Merkel has good reason to be pissed off at us.

[alsame]

15. Absolutely. I'm not defending

it, but I think it's far more common than not.

Why Germany? I'm not sure, it may have to do with their relationship with Putin or other countries that we deem problematic.

[librechik]

2. we can

[Lionel Mandrake]

9. Which program was that?

[amandabeech]

37. Perhaps the poster is referring to our spying on East Germany before it was absorbed

into the FRG after the Berlin Wall came down.

It really hasn't been that long since the wall came down, and Chancellor Merkel and her birth family were involved with the GDR system. In fact, I believe that she and her family moved from west to east during the height of the cold war. That may make some people, particularly older people, in our spying services a bit nervous particularly since she seems closer to Putin than our other European friends.

However, in my opinion, the level of spying that we apparently pursue with Germany seems to be not nearly worth the problems that accrue when we are caught. I would say the same things for our spying in countries with whom we are actually friendly, but not with those with which we are frenemies.

[Lionel Mandrake]

41. About Angela Merkel and her family ...

The move from west to east may seem strange to us. Far more people moved the other way, or tried to and were shot.

Wikipedia as usual is informative about this:

Merkel's father was born a Catholic, but the Kasner family converted to Lutheranism after some years, and he studied Lutheran theology in Heidelberg and, afterward, in Hamburg. In 1954 her father received a pastorate at the church in Quitzow (near Perleberg in Brandenburg), which then was in East Germany, and the family moved to Templin. Thus Merkel grew up in the countryside 80 km (50 mi) north of East Berlin.

Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkel

The family moved because Dad got a job in the DDR, not because anyone in the family was a leftist.

Angela Merkel is a Christian Democrat, i.e., a member of the large right-of-center political party, which is roughly equivalent to the Republicans in the USA. The large left-of-center party in Germany is the SPD, aka the Social Democrats. They are roughly equivalent to the Democratic Party in the USA. Merkel's relationship with Putin reflects German politics, not any leftist tendencies on her part.

[BainsBane]

4. Everyone spies on everyone

They usually just have enough sense not to get caught doing it.

[KurtNYC]

5. That is where 8 of the 911 hijackers came from -- Hamburg

Hamburg terror cell (German: Hamburger Terrorzelle) was, according to U.S. and German intelligence agencies, a group of radical Islamists based in Hamburg, Germany that included students who eventually came to be key operatives in the 9/11 attacks. Important members included Mohamed Atta,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg_cell

[Lionel Mandrake]

8. Not exactly.

Atta et al. came through Hamburg, but they came from Saudi Arabia.

Also, Germans were spying on the Hamburg Cell and sharing intelligence with us. They were our friends then. Not any more.

[Thinkingabout]

26. The Germans spy also and sometimes they get caught also. We sure cannot believe Putin when

He claims not to spy on his people, it happens more in Russia than the USA.

[Dreamer Tatum]

6. Everyone spies on everyone, all the time.

Always has, always will.

Yes, they do. Germany has spies here now. We have spies there. ENGLAND has spies here.

[KinMd]

43. EXACTLY...talk about phony outrage

[Aerows]

7. Industrial and financial espionage

They are the wealthiest and most productive country in Europe and everything eventually flows through Germany in Europe.

[riderinthestorm]

21. Yup. Our intelligence agencies are about financial and industrial espionage

The terrorism bit and state security stuff provides convenient cover.

[Lionel Mandrake]

22. I disagree.

Changes that have taken place in the internal structure of the CIA show an increased emphasis on anti-terrorism.

In the months immediately following 9/11, there was a huge increase in the amount of applications for CIA positions. According to CIA representatives that spoke with the New York Times, pre-9/11 the agency received approximately 500 to 600 applications a week, in the months following 9/11 the agency received that number daily.

The intelligence community as a whole, and especially the CIA, were involved in presidential planning immediately after the 9/11 attacks. In his address to the nation at 8:30pm on September 11, 2001 George W. Bush mentioned the intelligence community: "The search is underway for those who are behind these evil acts, I've directed the full resource of our intelligence and law enforcement communities to find those responsible and bring them to justice."

The involvement of the CIA in the newly coined "War on Terror" was further increased on September 15, 2001. During a meeting at Camp David George W. Bush agreed to adopt a plan proposed by CIA director George Tenet. This plan consisted of conducting a covert war in which CIA paramilitary officers would cooperate with anti-Taliban guerrillas inside Afghanistan. They would later be joined by small special operations forces teams which would call in precision airstrikes on Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters. This plan was codified on September 16, 2001 with Bush's signature of an official Memorandum of Notification that allowed the plan to proceed.

Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA

[riderinthestorm]

25. Even the NSA admits they aren't about terrorism

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/15/1247400/-NSA-Director-Admits-He-Lied-About-Surveillance-Thwarting-54-Terror-Plots

I don't believe the CIA is any better

[rug]

10. To overcome the strudel gap.

[Lionel Mandrake]

14. Heh heh.

If that's the reason, we would do better to spy on Austria.

[BillZBubb]

27. MMMM! Strudel!

Feed me Mandrake!

[RKP5637]

11. Spying makes the world go around! Everyone does it, the US just gets caught

more often.

[Rex]

13. Because it would be unfair to give Germany special treatment.

Why would we NOT spy on one certain country? We spy on the entire planet including ourselves...what would make Germany an exception to the rule?

[BillZBubb]

28. That's the answer that probably makes the most sense! nt

[Rex]

38. The way of the world.

Our government wants to keep a much better eye on us and the rest of the world using advanced technology, some of which is for true safety reasons and some of which probably is not. All countries that are able do this to some extent or another do so. Technology gives them the upper hand.

Hoover and McCarthy showed us just how dangerous our government can get when it makes the citizens into possible enemy non-combatants.

[phylny]

16. To learn how they got so good at soccer n/t

[Maedhros]

17. "We do what we must, because we can."

[BillZBubb]

30. That's almost always a bad answer! nt

[stevenleser]

18. It's easier when you understand why countries spy on each other.

Here are some questions such spying might answer:

1. Are they happy/mad/disappointed/etc. with us?

2. Are they about to do something we would not like? i.e., start negotiations with a country we don't like for a trade deal, arms pact, pull out of agreements with us, etc.

3. Are they in need of something that we don't know about and for some reason they don't want to tell/ask us about?

4. Who is for and against us in their government or opposition, and why?

5. Are they being infiltrated (This requires analyzing what they said versus intercepts from elsewhere) and thus is what we tell them likely to be intercepted and thus should we not tell them certain things, or should we help them find the spies?

6. Are they spying on us and if so who are their agents?

7. Is someone in the opposition about to hurt someone in the government who is our preferred person, or vice versa?

8. How stable is the current government. What things would make it more or less stable?

9. Are they about to develop new secret weapons or military capabilities that we should be concerned about or might destabilize the region?

10. What is the mental health of the current leader and other top folks in the government and how would that affect their being able to lead or help us in a crisis?


Those ten things took me about 10 minutes to come up with and I am not in the intelligence industry.

[Lionel Mandrake]

19. The intelligence community does more than just spy.

It also reads open sources, such as newspapers, to answer many of the types of questions you asked. The CIA for example also publishes maps and other stuff about various countries. You can find many of their unclassified publications in a good library.

The problem with espionage is that you must balance the importance of the information so obtained against the likelihood of, and repercussions from, getting caught.

IMO our government has lost its sense of balance since 9/11.

[BillZBubb]

29. For our European allies, just about everything you listed

could be found out easily enough by reading in country publications and watching news broadcasts. Or, with strong allies, how about just asking them and trying to decipher how honest you think they are being?

The US has gone spy crazy. We spy where we don't have to. We spy too much on friendly governments.

Counterintelligence can be done through our domestic agencies in the case of allies.

[Throd]

32. You're being naive. Which of those 10 items would they freely answer ?

And why would we trust that answer?

Every nation acts in its own self interest.

Should the Germans take our word that me mean what we say? They don't.

[stevenleser]

35. Exactly. They wouldn't freely and truthfully answer any of them

Not only that, merely asking some of those questions would likely cause a diplomatic incident.

[stevenleser]

34. Hardly...

No foreign leader ally or otherwise is going to tell us if they have hidden mental health issues, and that is assuming they have been diagnosed.

The answers to Several of the questions would not even be known to the people in charge and could only be obtained by intelligence gathering methods.

Just about all first world countries spy on each other to get this kind of information.

I realize that for some folks, intel agencies, particularly in the US are one of their preferred whipping boys that you are not going to give up easily or at all but the facts generally don't support their vilification

[KamaAina]

20. Easy.

We're desperately trying to figure out their soccer secrets. They scored more in that one game than we did in four.

[treestar]

23. To find out if they have any plans for WWIII?

To make sure they aren't getting up to that racial superiority thing again?

[Separation]

24. I know nothing!

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Peregrine]

31. Spy's are generally bad

They are nationals of the country being spied upon that received very little training. The spies in Germany were either: were given up by the CIA because of the NSA leaks, or were outed by German Intel to help boost the faux outrage. German Intel already knew about them. Remember NSA gave access to German Intel to the data. German Intel probably asked foe NSA to spy on the PM.

It's a game. CIA and German agents are probably in a bar throwing back beers and laughing.

[no_hypocrisy]

33. Hoping to get personal dirt on someone to use as blackmail

next time we want Germany and/or NATO to go to war or contribute to our efforts when we next go to war.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

36. Because we don't want them to sneak another Pearl Harbor on us.

[eridani]

39. Because freedom. Because Hitler. Because we can. n/t

[quadrature]

40. cell phones are not private... the NSA listens to lots of radio signals.

somebody tell Prince Charles that cell phones
are not private.
ditto that crazy German woman.

[bigwillq]

42. For soccer tips

[Lionel Mandrake]

44. But their superiority in soccer is easily explained.

They don't get sidetracked by the silly American version of rugby.