Keep in mind: The Malaysian flight was broadcasting a civilian signal

[Coventina]

to any equipment capable of targeting it.

We don't live with 1980s tech anymore. Such "mistakes" are not plausible.
This is what Chris Hayes was saying last night on his show.

I think this is a fact that is getting somewhat overlooked in the discussion.

If any current aviation experts can correct me on this, please do.

Putin apologists, please don't waste your time.

[davidpdx]

1. I'm interested in the answer as well

If what you are saying is true, then it was not a mistake.

[Spider Jerusalem]

2. Apparently...

the BUK launcher's targeting radar unit is not capable of IFF. See this:

It only looks as if they have the 9A310M1 TELAR, which only has the radar, not the IFF. IFF is done by the (normally associated) 9S18 acquisition radar. It does not appear as if a 9S18 was present here, probably resulting in them not acquiring the transponder signal.

http://www.reddit.com/r/UkrainianConflict/comments/2aypy5/strelkov_unknowingly_takes_responsibility_for/cj0bdzb

[stevenleser]

4. Pretty nutty to fire blindly at things on your scope, but that's our pro-Russian rebels.

[Spider Jerusalem]

7. This is where the lack of training and lack of IFF-capable equipment comes into play

the rebels posted something to social media about having shot down an An-26; there was, apparently, an An-26 in the area at about the same time (albeit at a much lower altitude and speed). Part of the training for SAM battery operators is target discrimination (learning to identify what's a target and what isn't based in part on things like altitude and speed). So combine a plane they saw as a target in the same area, with a lack of target discrimination training, and MH17 in the same area at the same time? And this is the result.

[stevenleser]

14. Well said, I have explained it similarly. Its easy to shoot down things when you don't bother to try

to figure out what it is and have no rules of engagement. SA-11's are a very good system that will shoot down just about anything without modern jamming equipment.

The trick is to do the right thing and identify it properly before you shoot. If you're not very good at that, the plane, particularly a jet, could be out of range before you get the chance to fire.

[flamingdem]

24. These guys are not too bright

and thus have become a mega problem for their boss.

[jakeXT]

8. Reddit?

Identifying Foes
The SA-11 missile system has a device known as an IFF, or Identification Friend from Foe, and commercial airliners typically have a beacon that transmits their identification, Postol said.

http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/2014-07-17/missile-hit-malaysian-jet-in-ukraine-u-s-officials-say.html

[Spider Jerusalem]

10. ...

When fielded, a Buk firing battery consists of:

the 9S18M1Target Acquisition Radar used to acquire potential aerial targets, and transmit their position and tracks to:
the 9S470M1 Command Post (CP) vehicle (contains the missile battery's data display and control system; digital fire-control computer, which assigns targets to individual launchers, and computes the engagement)
one or more 9A310M1S launchers each armed with four radar-guided missiles.

All three of these systems are vehicle-mounted.

In a normal engagement, all three would operate as an integrated weapon system, and the crew of the Command Post vehicle are likely to have a good idea of the local air activity.

However, a Buk launcher can also operate in stand-alone mode. Its built-in radar is normally used to track the target being engaged, but can be operated in a target-detection mode, allowing it to autonomously engage targets that were present in the radar's forward field of view.

Although it has it own Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) system, this is only able to establish whether the target being tracked is a friendly aircraft. It is the electronic equivalent of a sentry calling out "Who goes there?” If there is no reply, all you know is that it is not one of your own side's combat aircraft. It would not give you a warning that you were tracking an airliner.
- See more at: http://press.ihs.com/press-release/aerospace-defense-terrorism/ihs-janes-analysis-capabilities-ukraines-missile-systems#sthash.VTp04w9p.dpuf

[jakeXT]

17. The Russians say they detected a Kupol radar

“Throughout the day on July 17, Russian means of radar surveillance intercepted the operation of the Buk-M1 battery’s Kupol radar station located in the region of the populated area of Styla [30 kilometers south of Donetsk],” the press service said in a statement.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140718/191010193/Russian-Defense-Ministry-Says-Intercepted-Ukrainian-Radar.html[/div

Kupol is the name for 9S18

The rebels claim they have a non working BUK

Only available in militia SAM "Buk" faulty, but even the current complex is incapable, without radar hit targets at a distance at which the victim was on the eve of the collapse of the Boeing 777, said the People's Governor Paul Gubarev Donetsk.
https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Frussian.rt.com%2Farticle%2F41486&edit-text=

[Spider Jerusalem]

18. ...

The self-defense forces of Donetsk People’s Republic seized control of a Ukrainian anti-air military installation, RIA Novosti reports.

"The forces of Donetsk People’s Republic assumed control of A-1402 military base," the militia's representative said. According to him, it is an anti-aircraft missile forces facility equipped with Buk mobile surface-to-air missile systems.
Read more: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_06_29/Donetsk-militia-takes-control-of-Ukrainian-anti-air-installation-1561/

NB that the above is from Russian state media.

[jakeXT]

20. And later the Ukrainian Prosecutor-General denied it ... cya?

KIEV, July 18. /ITAR-TASS/. Militias in the self-proclaimed Donetsk and Luhansk people’s republics do not have Ukrainian air defense missile systems Buk and S-300 at their disposal, Ukrainian Prosecutor-General Vitaly Yarema told Ukrainian Pravda newspaper on Friday.

“After the passenger airliner was downed, the military reported to the president that terrorists do not have our air defense missile systems Buk and S-300,” the general prosecutor said

http://en.itar-tass.com/world/741271

[Spider Jerusalem]

25. The rebels were awfully keen to delete their Tweet with picture:

https://twitter.com/RobPulseNews/status/489815856135036928/photo/1

[jakeXT]

28. They admitted to rt russia that they have one, as I said the Ukraine government is in cya mode

They would love to blame Russia for shipping equipment, but they have to blame themselves.

[stevenleser]

30. Ukrainian government is not in CYA mode. Everyone knows they didn't do it.

Outside of a few Putin apologists who are desperately trying to spin this anyway they can, everyone knows it was the rebels.

[jakeXT]

31. They didn't abandon a Buk in a military base ? /nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. That's kind of nonsensical

that logic is like saying "it's the US government's fault that the rebels fired on Fort Sumter because they left cannon in Charleston Harbor".

[stevenleser]

33. What the Putinistas are reduced to today, it's pathetic.

Really. It's sad.

[Coventina]

34. Thanks, I was thinking along those lines

but didn't have a clever example to go with it!

[jakeXT]

35. So why else would the Ukrainian official not admit that they lost a Buk ?

Either they lost one and he is lying or he is telling the truth and they never lost one.
And the rebels got it from somewhere else, brought to the base snapped a picture and uploaded it to twitter.

[stevenleser]

36. You're perilously close to justifying the Iraq invasion because "they didn't come clean"

Beware you're spinning like a whirling dervish here and are being as careless with your spin as the rebels were with their SAMs.

You and other Putin apologists are thoughtlessly justifying all kinds of things in your desperation to make your favorites appear blameless.

[jakeXT]

37. They had a lot of plans to get the war going in Iraq

Last edited Fri Jul 18, 2014, 03:35 PM - Edit history (1)

Bush 'plotted to lure Saddam into war with fake UN plane'

George Bush considered provoking a war with Saddam Hussein's regime by flying a United States spyplane over Iraq bearing UN colours, enticing the Iraqis to take a shot at it, according to a leaked memo of a meeting between the US President and Tony Blair.

The two leaders were worried by the lack of hard evidence that Saddam Hussein had broken UN resolutions, though privately they were convinced that he had. According to the memorandum, Mr Bush said: "The US was thinking of flying U2 reconnaissance aircraft with fighter cover over Iraq, painted in UN colours. If Saddam fired on them, he would be in breach."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-plotted-to-lure-saddam-into-war-with-fake-un-plane-465436.html

[jakeXT]

38. It's easier to blame Russia, if the SA-11 is not from Ukraine

US ambassador Samantha Power says the US believes that a SA-11 missile was fired from an area controlled by pro-Russian separatists, who had previously boasted about obtaining such missiles. She said Russia has provided SA-11s and other heavy weapons to the separatists.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-28360784

[stevenleser]

3. The reason is simple, and I blame Putin and the rebels, but I see how this happened

The rebels got their hands on this equipment in the last few days and have only a basic grasp of it and are literally shooting at anything that appears on their scopes.

The Malaysian plane was way outside of its normal flight path (several hundred miles north) due to bad weather and the rebels probably shot at it without attempting to use IFF. (Identification Friend or Foe) to determine what it was. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identification_friend_or_foe

on edit: As the post above mine indicates, this radar doesnt even have IFF so they were maniacs shooting at anything that moved.

[jakeXT]

5. MH370 was also capable until it wasn't /nt

[Coventina]

12. Someone inside MH370 disabled the transponders.

Has there been any evidence that flight 17's were disabled?
I haven't heard anything, but I'd be very interested to know if that was the case.

[sinkingfeeling]

6. If the US shooting down Iran Air Flight 655 was a 'mistake', then why can't

this incident have been one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

Iran Air Flight 655 was an Iran Air civilian passenger flight from Tehran to Dubai that was shot down by the United States Navy guided missile cruiser USS Vincennes on 3 July 1988. The attack took place in Iranian airspace, over Iran's territorial waters in the Persian Gulf, and on the flight's usual flight path. The aircraft, an Airbus A300 B2-203, was destroyed by SM-2MR surface-to-air missiles fired from the Vincennes.

According to the Iranian government, Vincennes negligently shot down the civilian aircraft: the airliner was making IFF squawks in Mode III (not Mode II used by Iranian military planes), a signal that identified it as a civilian craft, and operators of Vincennes mistook for Mode II.[4]

According to the United States Government, the crew incorrectly identified the Iranian Airbus A300 as an attacking F-14 Tomcat fighter (a plane made in the United States and operated at that time by only two forces worldwide, the United States Navy and the Islamic Republic of Iran Air Force).

In 1996, the United States and Iran reached "an agreement in full and final settlement of all disputes, differences, claims, counterclaims" relating to the incident at the International Court of Justice.[7] As part of the settlement, the United States agreed to pay US$61.8 million, an average of $213,103.45 per passenger, in compensation to the families of the Iranian victims. However, the United States has never admitted responsibility, nor apologized to Iran.[8]

[Coventina]

13. The downing of flight 655 I believe was a war crime that should have been charged against

Reagan's administration.

I also don't think that one was a "mistake" nor is this one.

I apologize if my OP seemed to imply that.

What I was attempting to convey was that the downing of airliners in the 1980s has been bandied about in this case, and that technology has made quite a bit of progress since then, making the claim of a mistake even less plausible.

This is what was being discussed on MSNBC last night, but apparently some posters have info that contradict what was presented on Hayes' show.

[LisaL]

21. Technology might have made progress.

But if rebels procured the Bak system from the Ukrainian airbase, that technology could be very old.

[Coventina]

23. So they stole some antiquated equipment and murdered nearly 300 people with it.

Still not a "mistake."

[Igel]

29. In some sense it was.

If the rebels did it. But they would have been careless and the real issue is the source of the equipment they used--and who did the firing.

The arch-moralists tend to be those who say the Ukr did it intentionally for some CT purpose.

So Gubarev, one of the DPR leaders, said that the plane was actually shot down over Zaporizhzhya a hundred or so miles west of Donetsk oblast, and glided ("they have experts, they know how to do this&quot to crash in rebel territory.

Strelkov has said that a significant portion of the bodies on the plane had been dead for at least a day before being shot down, and it was a "provocation" planned in advance by the Ukrainians. Evidence was that some of the bodied were "bloodless" and their blood had clotted.

That a radar-based system from the '70s and '80s (even if it was the modified version) didn't do what it wasn't built to do isn't a surprise. Even if little green men did the launching, they didn't have all the back-of-house equipment to research the target and properly identify it as a neutral. And if there had been an Antonov in the area, as some have claimed, the missile might have locked onto the wrong target or the controller might have misidentified the target as the Antonov.

If this is a war crime, I chalk it up to negligence and not to intent. (Although Putin's milking it for all it's worth.)

[Baclava]

9. You're tracking something on radar, a blip, a dot on a screen, you have your target, you fire

These guys weren't FAA air traffic controllers and it was not a part of an advanced command and control system that could identify friend or foes.

[Coventina]

15. Then they are guilty of the murder of 300 people, for not correctly identifying the target.

Not terrorism, per se, but the crime of murder.

[Baclava]

26. no doubt they are murderers - having weapons like these in the hands of idiots is criminal in itself

The idea of intent is meaningless now, whether or not they had any idea what they were firing at doesn't matter.

[Coventina]

27. Agreed. n/t

[Brickbat]

11. "The Malaysian flight was broadcasting a civilian signal to any equipment capable of targeting it."

Which the BUK is not.

[Coventina]

16. The BUK was not capable of targeting it?

I thought it was pretty much confirmed that it was brought down by a BUK.

[LisaL]

19. It was capabable of targeting the plane. Not capable of figuring out what kind of signal is emitted

by the plane.
Rebels could be using very old equipment and most likely have poor training or no training on how to use it (assuming they are the ones who shot down the plane).

[Coventina]

22. That being the case, then they are guilty of murder, and should be tried for such.

298 counts, first degree (or however the Ukrainian courts code it).