The Rude Pundit: What's Happening in Gaza: A Savage and Obviously Anti-Semitic Blog Post

[meegbear]

According to the UN's Office of the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, as of the end of the brief cease-fire by Israel to allow Palestinians in the Gaza Strip to get food (which caused a run on banks and grocery stores) and medical attention, just prior to the start of a ground invasion:

"An estimated 57,900 children who have experienced death, injury or loss of home over the past ten days require direct and specialized psychosocial support."

"The total number of people in need of shelter assistance due to destruction of or damage to their homes is estimated to be 96,400 individuals."

"50% of sewage pumping and treatment centres are no longer available."

"More than 30,000 people in Al Junaina and Al Salam area remain without water for the past seven days as result of damage to the main pipeline."

"In total, 84 schools have been affected by shelling due to their close proximity to targeted sites and are in need of repairs."

This is not to mention the 23,000 who need food assistance, the destruction of farms, the damage to hospitals, and the damage to the water pumping system in the entire Gaza Strip. At least 250 Palestinians are dead and nearly 2000 are injured, 70% of whom are civilians, so, you know, take that as your moral compass allows it.

Yeah, Hamas shouldn't be launching missiles into Israel. And, yeah, Israel has responded with the disproportionate force of an elephant stomping a frog. If it was Netanyahu's goal to create another generation of Palestinian insurgents, well, that child's room up there probably tells you that it's mission accomplished.

(Was that too harsh? Was it anti-Semitic to say what the United Nations says? Oh, gee, sorry if your pro-Israel sensibilities were offended by a simple listing of the effects of Israel's actions. You can pull the Rude Pundit from the Gaza beat.)

http://rudepundit.blogspot.com/2014/07/whats-happening-in-gaza-savage-and.html

[hlthe2b]

1. "Disproportionate" Response

indeed....

There is a difference between self-protection, which no one would deny Israel the right to do and...... this

[redqueen]

4. +1

[m-lekktor]

9. ooops responded to wrong post

I agree with yours. self delete changed message on edilt

[backwoodsbob]

43. just out of curiousity...what is a proportionate response?

this is a war...You don't fight a war by measuring how much damage you have taken and only respond with the exact same amount of damage.

Two famous sayings;
Don't die for your country..make the other guy die for his.

Armies do two things....blow shit up and kill people

[Shipwack]

48. In that case...

Following that logic, Israel should be using their nukes... And I'm sure they would still have their supporters, both here and in congress.

[backwoodsbob]

51. why would they do that?

If Israel decided to go full out end this forever assault....they could end it in hours without nukes.

That's why I laugh so much at the suggestions that Israel is committing "Genocide".

If they really wanted to they could and yet Gaza has one of the fastest growing populations in the world

[Chemisse]

119. I'm glad somebody is amused by the killing of children.

Because I am heartsick, with no way to change anything, and that is not a fun way to feel.

[backwoodsbob]

130. just as I am glad you get so much amusement

out of rockets being fired at Israeli schoolchildren

[Chemisse]

147. Could you please cite your source for this?

I can point out the source for my comment about you, but yours seems to come right out of the blue.

[hlthe2b]

56. Some can defend any attrocity... and I find engaging with them to be futile

[Hissyspit]

75. No, it's not a war.

It's a war crime.

[IrishAyes]

78. Good on you!

Some people still defend My Lai. Not for long around me, granted; but they try.

[malaise]

84. Well said

[sabrina 1]

104. Thank you!

[backwoodsbob]

115. you atr correct

and the leaders of Hamas should be charged as war criminals

[BlueinOhio]

137. War crimes

Israel should be charged. Take people's land and jobs move them into ghettos. Strave them to death and have usually rocks to defend themselves. Israel is a fake country. The Bible should never be used as point in anything, it is myth and parables not history. The Phoenicians the sellers of purple were from that area and the same dna is shared by the jews and palestinians, the only difference is religion. The man who wanted to create the state of Israel did not want it there. It was put there by the ones who want Jesus to return. Another thing Israel is socailist. They just beat up an american and killed his cousin.
Just a thought but when the concentration camps after ww2 was freed the were no guards but the prisoners were still there? The German people were starving how many of the freed jews were actually nazis? Then there is the whole Ashkenazi jews which the word nazi comes from and they want to take over.

[IrishAyes]

77. And just because somebody said so (sounds like Patton),

that makes it admirable to you?

[sulphurdunn]

135. International law

balances the inevitability of civilian death and property damage against the anticipated military advantage, hardly a bleeding heart position. In this case, Israel may be anticipated to achieve no military advantage it has not already failed to achieve by using the same tactics in the past. Nothing will be resolved and Hamas will be back firing more missiles into Israel while Israel continues with the policies that exacerbate such actions. When no military advantage is possible, large numbers of civilian casualties constitutes a disproportionate response.

[backwoodsbob]

142. and yet Israel has gained

lsrael has gained.They have closed tunnels and destroyed many rocket launchers

[sulphurdunn]

146. They're fighting a Ground Hog Day war.

They'll have to keep going back and doing the same things over and over again.

[yurbud]

141. this is a war where one side has most of the weapons, does most of the killing, and ALL

of the taking and holding of the other side's land.

If Israel's goals were strictly defensive, there would be no settlements in any Palestinian territories.

At most, they would have military outposts.

[mbperrin]

144. So you agree that the Palestinians are doing the right thing

by killing Israelis and blowing shit up in Israel, because that's what you do in a war?

Seems weird for the IDF to get all bent out of shape and attack them, then if that's what they're SUPPOSED to do.

Hmmm

[jollyreaper2112]

152. Are you stoned?

It's obvious. A proportionate response is "Some bank robber gang holed up in a town, you surround the building they're in and negotiate a surrender. You don't start shelling the countryside and hope you blow up some robbers along with all the civilians."

Israel is not making war on the terrorist element, they're making war on the entire population. Well, maybe in their view all Palestinians are terrorists or suspected terrorists.

This is asinine. Israel has the capability of conducting a thorough genocide but can't risk the political fallout. Hamas lacks the capability to exterminate the Jews even if they would dearly like to. So the choice is either figuring out how to make peace or just keep a low-intensity conflict simmering for several generations more. That second choice is preferred by extremist leaders on both sides of the conflict.

[tech3149]

156. This is not a war!

This is a subjugation and terrorization of an occupied people. It is collective punishment against people who have almost no resources to fight back.
If Palestinian rockets are such a threat, how is it that the death toll is better than 200:1 of Palestinian versus Israeli?
Both sides are committing war crimes but Palestine holds much more justification to me than Israel ever could.\
It's sort of perversely funny that Israel has taken on the mantle of Goliath vs David.
I don't want to take a side in this fight but I think wee will see in the future that this David was as much in the right as that from history.

[AllyCat]

96. But I heard Sen RoJo (our dumb senator) say

This is all the fault of Hamas. And it's Obama's fault. And nobody on Devil's Advocate called him on it. They just yucked it up about Summerfest.

[Separation]

2. nt

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[Capt. Obvious]

3. Oh, are we posting that RW loon's comics now?

How's this one work for you?

[Separation]

7. Well, no.

Lol I'm gonna have to start running my articles and toons by a RW filter or something.

My wife is Jewish and said the same thing as the OP did. "Using and elephant to kill a frog and it's wrong". I totally agree with her as well. When we were in Iraq it would be on the evening news if we caused civilian casualties.

Israel should not get a free pass on killing noncombatants, period.

But that cartoon does also bring up another side of the argument. Which in no way makes it ok to commit genocide. I probably should have stated that.

As far as TW toons. Sorry, not my 1st time and probably won't be my last. I don't go over the authors history. If it pertains to a discussion that I'm in, I normally grab it without doing a background check.

[Capt. Obvious]

8. No, you posted a RW toon

I'm sure you will again.

[Separation]

10. Don't like it then by all means alert it.

Please, I explained my post. Don't like it or think I'm some RW mole? Then alert it, if not, move on.

[alfredo]

61. Because Gaza has among the highest population density, it is difficult to place defense/aggressive

weapons far from populations, and it is just as difficult for Israel to prevent the deaths of civilians. The people a Gaza can't run, their country is a prison.

[alfredo]

92. Don't confuse the majority with the radical element.

[Chemisse]

120. Did you see that little Palestinian girl in the hospital on the news last night?

She said (something like), "We may be little, but we will fight back."

They are fighting, however futilely, for their country and their people.

[cpwm17]

12. No, Israel brutalizes, steals from, and murders Palestinians with near impunity

hiding behind a powerful military partly paid for by US taxes.

[Violet_Crumble]

83. It was pretty mindless, which is par for the course for RW cartoons n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

88. I like stuff like Tom Tomorrow and other witty LW cartoons...

RW cartoons tend to be ugly, lacking in any wit, and generally quite deceptive and designed to appeal to their audience, which are RWers who don't like thinking...

[NealK]

95. Disgusting and clueless post.

[Alameda]

138. what do you call it when settlers build in occupied territories?

...they are civilians who put their families in danger when they take land and build in illegal areas.

[cpwm17]

5. Don't forget that it was Israel that first went on a collective punishment campaign

against Hamas and the Palestinians for the murder of the three Israeli kids by two Palestinians. The rocket barrage came later.

Benjamin Netanyahu deliberately provoked this conflict to excuse an unprovoked assault against the Gaza ghetto prison. They've been brutalizing the Palestinians for almost seventy years now. Do they have any shame?

[BlueMTexpat]

107. Using many weapons provided by us ...

with our staunch support, etc.

There's actually a more directly consistent link to the US in these Gaza deaths than there is to Putin in the Malaysian Airlines shootdown in Ukraine.

I do not want it said that I am defending Putin because I am NOT. But it is very difficult - if not downright hypocritical - for the US to call the Malaysian Airlines shootdown an "outrage of unspeakable proportions" that Putin should rein in and nonetheless refusing to rein in its ME proxy for consistent outrages of unspeakable proportions that have occurred deliberately, especially since the 1980s (Sharon-inspired and allowed massacres in Sabra and Shatila refugee camps) and, much more frequently since 2000 under Benjamin Netanyahu.

[The Magistrate]

6. Cold, But Fair Enough, Sir

[N_E_1 for Tennis]

11. Tell me...

When the mother fucking hell will we figure out we should not kill others?
What greater good does it have?
I'm sick of all this murder, no matter who does it, families disrupted, lives lost.
We are just sick, sick, people to allow this shit to be ongoing.

[Separation]

13. +1

Especially when it's done in the name of God.

[redqueen]

19. As long as any group lusts after power, wealth or resources it will continue.

Only when we learn to cooperate instead of compete will it change.

[LittleGirl]

25. see that's the thing I don't understand

will these rockets bring back those 3 teens that were kidnapped? Will it bring back those Palestinians? No, it won't. But now they are creating more murders and injuries and for what? WHY? Just fucking stop it. Everybody.

[daleanime]

103. Amen....

[biglib63]

14. Can someone explain...

Why does Hamas launch rockets into Israel? They have been doing it for years, it serves no military or strategic purpose, and every so often Israel gets fed up and strikes back causing horrific loss and suffering for the people of Gaza. When will the people of Gaza and their political leaders put those responsible for the rockets where they belong - behind bars.

[cpwm17]

16. Before the rockets started, Israel imprison almost two million Palestinians

creating the world's largest open air prison, also called the Gaza Strip. Out of the two million people in such a dire situation, some decide to strike back at their tormentors, The rockets is all they have.

[Fozzledick]

26. You're deliberately putting that backwards.

Hamas started firing rockets right after Israel withdrew from Gaza and left them in peace. The blockade was a defensive response to cut off the rocket supply.

But you already know that, it just doesn't fit your propaganda agenda.

[cprise]

30. You didn't read his message.

He's saying that Gaza itself is a sort of prison.

[Fozzledick]

36. Yes I did - I just didn't think it was honest.

Gaza is a battlefield because Hamas has chosen to make it a battlefield.

[cprise]

57. Oh, its honest

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5258286

Examples like this abound which do not fit within your specious assertion about cause and effect. Israelis routinely gun down children for throwing rocks or for nothing at all.

[Cheviteau]

76. You certainly

have a skewed view of the situation. Netanyahu is committing genocide alright. And it's against his own people. Israel can do better than him as a leader. The world will tire of this, maybe not in my lifetime, but soon enough. The hammer of justice always comes down on bullies. I love the idea of a Jewish state if that what is desired by the Jewish people. It should live in peace and respect the territories of its neighbors. And yes, Gaza is no less a prison than the Warsaw Ghetto. Netanyahu will one day walk through the door to hell for his attitude and actions against humanity.

[Fozzledick]

93. I wonder who you think you're impressing with that garbage.

[Chemisse]

121. I was impressed.

[bravenak]

33. The blockade traps over a million people inside Gaza.

They have no shelters from the bombs dropped on their homes, schools and hospitals. Beautiful children, dead.

[Fozzledick]

39. Hamas DOES have bomb shelters - buried under hospitals, schools and mosques.

They just don't let civilians into them because they WANT them to get killed.

[bravenak]

42. So bomb the civilians anyway?

How does that help? Now we have another generation who will grow up knowing they are just pieces of meat.

How does giving Hamas what you say they want help? You made it sound like the IDF is just doing Hamas a favor. Please elucidate.

[Fozzledick]

46. If that were true the casualties would be in the thousands.

[bravenak]

47. If, sniff.

That is not an answer. It gets hard to defend the indefensible. I understand why you refuse to explain why it's okay to shell children on the beach. I would not he able to defend it either. Deflection works for some folks, not me.

[Chemisse]

122. Could we see the link for Gaza having bomb shelters?

Because when I googled it just now, I saw the opposite.

[hack89]

148. Hamas has tunnels and bunkers

They just choose to shelter weapons and fighters, not civilians.

[Octoberfurst]

102. Nonsense!

Israel blockaded Gaza because they didn't like the fact that Hamas won in a fair and free election. They are doing collective punishment which is against international law. Try reading something other than AIPAC propaganda when it comes to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

[Fozzledick]

18. They think they can generate sympathy by getting people killed.

It's a vicious and cynical strategy, but some people fall for it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113469388

[bravenak]

32. Some people fall on beaches when shells hit little boys.

Playing in the sand. I feel heart sick.

[sabrina 1]

106. If that is what Hamas wants, why would Israel work with them to achieve it?

That is ridiculous, unless Netanyahu is a moron. He's a lot of things, but not an idiot who would play into the hands of Hamas. Because you are correct, Israel may be winning the lobsided invasion of Gaza, but they rapidly losing the sympathy of the world. So Hamas wins, with the help of Israel is what you are saying.

[Chemisse]

123. Certainly they will be getting no sympathy from you!

It must take a hard heart to blame 4 children playing on a beach for their own deaths.

[Spazito]

23. When will the Israeli government put those responsible for stealing Palestinian land...

by removing the illegal settlers and returning the stolen land to the Palestinians? Maybe if the Israeli government acted in good faith and showed it by acting against the extremist illegal settlers the people of Gaza would put those responsible for the rockets behind bars.

For peace to be obtained action by both factions, repeat BOTH factions, needs to be taken. To demand only one side act while ignoring the culpability of the other side will defuse nothing and more likely exacerbate the crisis, imo.

[IrishAyes]

80. Reminds me of a great toon called 'Frank(?) and Earnest' years ago.

In this one they're cavemen. Frank turns to his pal and says, "It's called unilateral disarmament, Ernie. Here, drop your club, turn your back, close your eyes - and I'll demonstrate it for you."

Both sides need to stand down.

[Spazito]

81. Exactly, both sides need to go to the table as equals...

with a genuine want to end the fighting, prepared to make concessions if peace and security is ever to be found.

[eridani]

55. For the same reason that kids kick the back of the driver's seat when their parents--

--decided to go visit Aunt Em in Kansas instead of Disneyland. Hamas has no power whatsoever to stop Israel's ongoing theft of land and water, and occasionally burst out in the rage of the powerless.

[LuvNewcastle]

62. That's it.

It's the sad truth. The Israelis come in and ruin anything that Palestinians build, even if it's something that hasn't any kind of use for belligerent purposes. They might come in and uproot all of their olive trees, for instance. I admire the tenacity of the Palestinians, but I don't see how they stand it. I would have moved my family out of there if I were one of them. I think the Palestinians do deserve a homeland, though, just as much as the Israelis do.

The world has lost just about any kind of patience with the Israeli approach to this ongoing dispute; I think a lot of Americans have lost patience with them as well. I've always believed that the Jewish people should have a homeland, but I also believe that the Palestinians do. I think there's enough land there for both, at least for the foreseeable future. I sympathize more and more with the Palestinians every time the Israelis do something like this, however, and all I can say is that the Israelis had better be ready to deal the next time there are negotiations. My patience with them is coming to an end.

If there isn't a deal next time, I think the world should step in and divide it up. This conflict is part of the reason why the whole region is unstable, and it's harming peace efforts all over the world. It's time to stop this shit for good.

[Chemisse]

124. 'The rage of the powerless'

That describes it well.

[Fozzledick]

15. Still no shortage of rockets though.

And no end to the attacks on Israeli civilians.

I guess they've chosen their priorities.

[Maedhros]

20. You're ignoring the "disproportionate" part.

Israel has perpetrated, is perpetrating, and probably will continue to perpetrate much, much, much more violence against Palestinians that Hamas could ever dream of perpetrating against Israelis.

[Fozzledick]

24. Not all all - you're ignoring the thousands of rockets fired at Israel.

But Iron Dome works better than human shields.

[Maedhros]

27. Has Hamas been able to inflict anywhere near the casualties on Israel than Israel has on Palestine?

No.

This is the nature of asymmetrical warfare. Americans are uniquely propagandized to view violence perpetrated by organized states as justified, and violence perpetrated by resistance forces as "terrorism."

Similarly, lives lost by the occupying or subjugating nation are viewed as "precious", whereas lives lost by the conquered or subjugated people are "regrettable but necessary."

You're clearly unable to look at this situation objectively.

/ignore.

[Fozzledick]

28. So you condemn Israel for successfully defending themselves from terrorist aggression.

No matter how you try to disguise it, that's really ugly.

[bravenak]

31. No.

Those four children on the beach, broken little bodies in the sand, was ugly. It showed how ugly humans can b with enough power.

[Fozzledick]

35. It showed what happens when Hamas chooses to fire rockets from densely populated areas.

[bravenak]

37. Are you saying it's okay to shoot children playing on the beach?

Because, Hamas? No one saw any militants on the beach. Those four killed were children. Not one Hamas fighter among the dead on that beach. Where is the proof that hamas was on the beach? I have seen nothing.

[Aerows]

38. Dead children

and a hospital destroyed.

How many people die before it's *enough*?

[bravenak]

41. That i would like to know.

My children would have been on that beach if we lived there. They love dirt and water and sand. Children tend to need sun on their faces and a bit of freedom to run.
Every-time i hear them announce another death toll, i now see that little boy crumpled in the sand, feet by his face, legs spread indecently in the sand and sun. I know that i could never shoot a baby to get to a man. No excuse for this. I keep crying about EVERYTHING. I think my worldview has been shattered. Humans are bad.

[frylock]

59. no fucking answer. none.

the poster knows there is no fucking way to justify that shit. at all.

[bravenak]

60. I have found the human shields argument disgusting.

I wont expect answers, just more posturing. This is sad.

[WatermelonRat]

64. He doesn't need to justify it. It was an accident.

There may have been some soldier who was incompetent or negligent who deserves severe reprimand and punishment over this. Or perhaps it was an officer above that soldier whose error led to that tragedy. It's not outside the realm of possibility, however, that they took all the precautions they were supposed to, and it still happened.

Innocent people get hurt in war. That is a frustrating absolute, no matter how moral an army is. Even doing everything right, there's always going to be a risk, especially when dealing with a group like Hamas that puts their people deliberately in harms way. That's not to say vigorous measures should not be taken to avoid it as much as possible, but it's not evidence of wickedness on the part of Israel.

[countryjake]

67. What "war" are you speaking of? n/t

[Violet_Crumble]

86. These accidents happen a hell of a lot...

I remember when two kids riding bikes were blown to pieces by an Israeli missile. And some kids playing in a field suffered the same fate. The list of accidents is so long that if it were posted, people would still be scrolling through the post this time next week.

What you call an accident isn't an accident. It's what happens when those attacking don't care whether the recipient of their bombs and missiles are civilians or not. They don't target them intentionally, it's just that they don't care whether civilians are killed or not, because the lives of Palestinian civilians just aren't of any value.

When it comes to justification for the killing of those four children on the beach. There's absolutely no justification at all for it, but those who come along and claim Hamas made Israel do it or try to defend what happened *are* trying to justify it, and it's disgusting to see what are basically RW arguments for war appearing on a LW forum like DU...

[Chemisse]

126. And these are just the 'accidents' that we see.

Most of the news reporting of the impact on the Palestinians has been done from correspondents comfortably situated in Israel. It's only recently that we even have anybody in Gaza during a conflict.

[WatermelonRat]

136. In a chaotic war zone, it does not take great callousness or negligence to create tragedy.

The tiniest error or oversight is enough. Sometimes not even that. Sometimes everything is done right and innocents still get harmed. This is a frustrating reality of war. It is not to Israel's benefit to harm civillians - on the contrary, it's in their best interests to avoid them to the greatest extent possible. It is precisely because Israel does all that it can to avoid civillian casualties that Hamas uses civillian homes to store weapons and house command centers, because they know that more often than not, Israel avoids striking when they suspect civillians may reside in a building.

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

140. You're dealing with an apologist for ethnic cleansing and war crimes.

So there is nothing new from that crowd. Cheer on Israel at all costs while never admitting that it has become a prison / apartheid state.

[spinbaby]

44. What part of Gaza is not densely populated?

My impression is that they're packed in there like sardines.

[WatermelonRat]

65. Here is a map of Gaza:

[img][/img]
Most of the strip is not urbanized.

[cprise]

34. Or, escalating gang-level violence to a military assault with mass casualties. n/t

[The Green Manalishi]

49. Pretty much

the way we are trained to think about it (if you can call it 'thinking') is that violence perpetrated by uniformed individuals representing an officially recognized state are either 'our guys' or at least legitimate enemy combatants who will be treated according to the Geneva conventions if captured. Individuals and groups not meeting those criteria and anyone partisan to them are terrorists and criminals and may be killed indiscriminately.

That's just the programming that we've been fed for longer than my lifetime, in my observation. the Palestinian movement will *NEVER* have the support of the American people, or the majority of them(or, to be more precise, American opinion will never give even equal consideration to Palestinian demands and concerns) unless and until their combatants put on uniforms and separate themselves from the civilian population. And America is simply never going to believe that the legitimate borders of Israel are anything other than those specified in the maps that came with their bibles.

I'm probably wrong, and am making no value judgments, only speculations as to politics and strategy.

[Maedhros]

50. ...which is why there is such an effort to deny Palestine official statehood.

Statehood would lend credence to their cause, which would undermine Israel's agenda.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

69. I'll bet that your 78 record collection only had one side.

[Chemisse]

125. As someone above put it so aptly,

the Palestinians' rockets are the expression of 'the rage of the powerless.'

Sometimes it helps to put yourself in someone else's shoes for a few minutes. Imagine that you are a Palestinian, living in harsh, captive conditions, friends and family killed at random, always in danger.

What would YOU do? Would you still have the same attitude, the same beliefs?

[DanTex]

128. How many innocent civilians has Hamas killed? How many has IDF killed?

I think the key word here is "disproportionate". Obviously, Hamas firing rockets is bad. But Israel going in and leveling Gaza, an action that they know will cause hundreds of innocent civilian deaths, is also bad.

I don't see how you can justify that. I've noticed that throughout this OP, when it comes to questions of proportionality of response, and Palestinian civilian deaths, you either ignore the question, or curtly reply that all blame belongs to Hamas. Which is absurd.

[Fred Sanders]

17. Dehumanization of Palestinians permits this while the western world looks away, the population

in America is the most safe from inconvenient truths, safely protected in a media cocoon, the combination of propaganda, the purposeful under reporting of Palestinian deaths and the effective propaganda.

The cartoon with the children as human shields, mothers apparently willing, is the most disgusting example of that I have seen recently.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

21. Can we expect American sanctions against Israel for its aggression against Gaza?

Or, how about sending a fleet to the area to warn them?

I thought not.

[LuvNewcastle]

72. To anyone else, that would be our response.

America's hypocrisy in its relations with Israel versus the rest of the world has got to end at some point. Now is a good time. I'm so disgusted with this shit that I don't know how to put it into words. AIPAC is just another lobby to our government whose corrupt influence needs to be exposed and done away with. I wish Americans would become more aware of how our government is doing business. I hope the younger generation is paying attention, at least.

[oldandhappy]

22. Thank you

Please do not go away!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

29. The ultimate example I saw was when some New York tourists made a wrong turn....

They were in a rental car and ended up in a Palestinian neighborhood.

Some kids threw rocks at their car as they beat a hasty retreat.

Normally one would expect this to be settled by filling out an insurance claim at the rental car office.

Right?

Seriously,.....RIGHT?

Israel sent in a helicopter gunship which fired rockets at the local Palestinian police station because the cops should have been there to prevent those kids from throwing rocks.

That's considered to be a balanced response.

[Chemisse]

127. omg.

[malaise]

40. Thank you Rudie

Enough is enough!!!

[yellowwoodII]

52. We are responsible

We are responsible for the lopsided situation that is happening in Israel/Palestine. We provide many of the weapons that are killing civilians. We fund Israel.
Israel is not a religion or a race. It is a country, and it can be wrong just as we can be wrong.
To ignore our responsibility in this matter is to be morally corrupt.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Thank you, Rude Pundit

[abelenkpe]

53. K&R

[JDPriestly]

54. Egypt called for a cease-fire and the Palestinians broke it.

The problem with the Palestinians and Hamas is that they are not organized well enough to be able to negotiate a cease-fire or any other agreement. They don't have discipline within their people. No one is really in charge. Anger is the only master of some of the Palestinians.

Note that when Israelis wrongly and without government approval killed a Palestinian, the killers were arrested. The Palestinians do not have that kind of organization. There is no hope for peace until the Palestinians do establish law and order and the ability to enforce a cease-fire within their own ranks.

Israel is dealing with a group of people with whom Israel cannot negotiate or come to any agreement. Until the Palestinians start to arrest those among their people who violate cease-fires or shoot rockets at Israel, Israel will respond with well organized, well disciplined force. What else can Israel do?

Palestinians throw temper tantrums. What do parents do when their children throw temper tantrums. If you follow the events in the Middle East, you know that Israel has, in the past, gone so far as to demolish its own settlements in efforts to show good faith in negotiating peace. The Palestinians have never responded with good faith signs that they are willing to negotiate peace.

What can Israel do other than give in to the temper tantrums of the Palestinians?

[eridani]

58. Good analogy. The Palestinians are as powerless as children

That's why they thow temper tantrums. It's all that people with no power can do. The homemade rockets are the military equivalent of kids kicking the back of the driver's seat.

[JDPriestly]

100. They could negotiate with Israel.

But they have to stop sending rockets into Israel first. It's especially tough to blame Israel when Israel agreed to a cease fire and kept it and the Palestinians broke the cease fire.

[eridani]

105. The "rockets" are tin can high school science projects

--with exactly one casualty so far. They are the military equivalent of kids kicking the bac of the driver's seat. Israel is all about massive theft of land and water, which Palestinians are powerless to prevent.

[JDPriestly]

110. So why are the Palestinians sending the rockets.

They know very well that the Israelis will retaliate with force.

Poor leadership. That's why the Palestinians are sending the rockets.

Unwillingness to use their resources wisely. Seeking martyrdom.

That's why the Palestinians never get anywhere. They have poor leadership, foolish strategy and are not only realistic but full of hate.

The Israelis retaliate.

Both sides need to stop fighting, but the Palestinians need to take the lead.

The Israelis arrested the Israeli youths who killed a Palestinian without reason and without military purpose. The Palestinians need to reciprocate by punishing those among them that perform random acts of violence.

[eridani]

111. They do it because their total miltary impotence enreges them n/t

[JDPriestly]

112. They should get over their anger and focus on making their lives better.

Anger is self-defeating for Palestinians as well as everyone else.

Supporters of Palestine should encourage them to work toward being positive and getting help to improve their lives. That is how they will make progress and be able to live in peace with their neighbors.

Criminals are angry. That does not justify their crimes.

If the Israelis bombed the Palestinians without for a reason other than retaliation, if the Palestinians obeyed cease-fires and negotiated in good faith with Israel, the Palestinians would have more sympathy and get further in the negotiations for peace. The Palestinians need to first have the goal of living in peace with their neighbors, and then they can negotiate for what they want, reparations, cooperation, land exchanges, etc. But as it is, they are seeking conflict.

Their choice is to seek conflict. They are getting what they are seeking. It is a shame that they are seeking it. But they are.

[eridani]

113. It is specific Israeli policy to prevent them from having better lives

The long term goal is complete ethnic cleansing.

[JDPriestly]

114. That is projection. The Palestinians' stated goal is to get rid of Israel.

The stated goal of Israel is two states living in peace.

The Palestinians project their own goal on the Israelis. The Israelis want security not the destruction of the friendly states around them, say Jordan. If the Israelis wanted ethnic cleansing, they would not just bomb Palestine. Israel bombs countries that commit aggression toward Israel.

The Palestinians expressly talk about the right of return, and in so doing they are talking about destroying the state of Israel.

Both the Palestinians and he Israelis need to negotiate peace. But they have to obey a cease-fire first. That means the Palestinians have to stop throwing stones and rockets into Israel. And the Palestinians have to punish their citizens who do throw stones and rockets into Israel.

I would like to see both sides live in peace. As for what territory each should have, that should be negotiated.

[eridani]

145. Well, my stated goal is dating Robert Redford.

The PLO has long accepted the right of Israel to exist

Arafat recognises Jewish state and limit to return of refugees
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/jun/19/israel

Yasser Arafat has told an Israeli newspaper that he recognises Israel's right to remain a Jewish state and is, therefore, prepared to accept the return of only a fraction of the Palestinian refugees.
In an interview with Ha'aretz, published yesterday, the Palestinian leader was asked if he understood that "Israel has to keep being a Jewish state"?

"Definitely," he replied.

Like the US, unfortunately Israel keeps thinking that religious fundies will somehow be easier to manage than secular nationalists like the PLO. This is not the fault of Palestinians.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-s-hamas/1817

This has been longstanding Israeli policy. Starting in the late 1970s Israel helped build up the most fanatical and intolerant fundamentalist Muslims as rivals to the nationalist PLO. The terrorist organization Hamas is largely an Israeli creation. A UPI story last year quoted a U.S. government official as saying: “The thinking on the part of some of the right-wing Israeli establishment was that Hamas and the other groups, if they gained control, would refuse to have anything to do with the peace process and would torpedo any agreements put in place.”

The PLO has long been aware of Israeli strategy. In their 1989 book, Intifada, Ze’ev Schiff and Ehud Ya’ari write that Fatah “suspected the Israelis of a plot first to let Hamas gather strength and then to unleash it against the PLO, turning the uprising into a civil war… [M]any Israeli staff officers believed that the rise of fundamentalism in Gaza could be exploited to weaken the power of the PLO…”

[Hippo_Tron]

158. I agreed with you up to here, but as you say the Palestinians are disorganized...

Disorganized people don't have a stated goal. Hamas has the stated goal of getting rid of Israel.

[JDPriestly]

155. Do you have a link showing that Israel adopted that aas a policy.

Last I heard Israel had erected a wall and even some sort of barrier to protect against the rockets and stones. Last I heard Israel had erected bomb shelters.

If Israel were intent on destroying Palestine, they would have done it by now in my opinion,. Palestinians have attacked Israel often enough to have given Israel lots of excuses to do it.

Palestinians need to focus on making their lives better and gainingn the confidence of all the states that are their neighbors. That's how they can help their citizens, especially children.

[eridani]

161. Ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, or, democratic Israel at work

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/ethnic-cleansing-of-palestinians-or-democratic-israel-at-work-1.361196#!

While we are still desperately concealing, denying and repressing our major ethnic cleansing of 1948 - over 600,000 refugees, some who fled for fear of the Israel Defense Forces and its predecessors, some who were expelled by force - it turns out that 1948 never ended, that its spirit is still with us. Also with us is the goal of trying to cleanse this land of its Arab inhabitants as much as possible, and even a bit more. After all, that's the most covert and desired solution: the Land of Israel for the Jews, for them alone. A few people dared to say it outright - Rabbi Meir Kahane, Minister Rehavam Ze'evi and their disciples, who deserve a certain amount of praise for their integrity. Many aspire to do the same thing without admitting it.

The revelation of the policy of denying residency has proved that this secret dream is in effect the establishment's secret dream. There one doesn't talk about transfer, heaven forfend; nobody would think of calling it cleansing. They don't load Arabs onto trucks as they once did, including after the Six-Day War, and they don't shoot at them to chase them away - all politically incorrect methods in the new world. But in effect that's the goal.

Some people think it's enough if we make the lives of the Palestinians in the territories miserable to get them to leave, and many have in fact left. An Israeli success: According to the Civil Administration, about a quarter of a million Palestinians voluntarily left the West Bank in the bloody years 2000-2007. But that's not enough, so various and sundry administrative means were added to make the dream come true.

[JDPriestly]

162. That is an opinion piece. It is not a declaraton of policy by the Israeli government.

Hamas has the expressed policy of return of Palestinians to what they claim were their ancestors homes in earlier periods. That is a policy that translates into destroying Israel.
I have never heard of an official or expressed Israeli policy calling for the destruction of Palestine or Palestinians.

I have only heard of Israelis responding to violence and physical harassment by Palestinians.

[eridani]

163. A policy need not be declared to be implemented

Ethnic cleansing has been implemented since 1967.

[smirkymonkey]

150. +1

[BlancheSplanchnik]

74. +, in a sad and frustrating thread.

This is among the most informative posts in it.

Not that I have any answers. Just felt I learned the most from this explanation.

[Violet_Crumble]

91. Why did you find that post informative?

Because I read it and it's typical blame the Palestinians for everything and absolve Israel of any blame. And where the large-scale killing of Palestinian civilians gets downgraded to 'well-organised, well-disciplined force'. If this were any other country but Israel doing this, DUers like that one would be appalled and speaking out against the killing of civilians, rather than racing in to protect the country doing the killing...

[JDPriestly]

97. The Palestinians sent rockets into Israel.

They then bragged that they were forcing the Israelis to run for cover.

If the rockets hadn't been shot on Israel, the Palestinians would have a good case. But the Palestinians are the aggressors in this situation.

[Violet_Crumble]

116. So according to you that's where it all started?

That bit where the 3 Israeli teenagers hitchhiking in the West Bank being murdered, the OTT Israeli reaction of destroying homes, blaming Hamas without any evidence, and starting to arrest hundreds of Palestinians they saw as being affiliated with Hamas, and the horrific abduction and murder of a Palestinian teenager didn't happen? Out of blue on a nice, peaceful day those rockets just happened? If you think that, there's some reading you need to catch up on...

It's Israel that's killing lots of Palestinian civilians right now. It's the same thing that happened a few years ago, and will probably happen in a few years time. Israel is solely to blame for the things it's doing right now, and Hamas is solely to blame for what it does. Trying to blame the other bunch for what one side does reminds me of those who try to blame rape victims for getting raped...

[Hell Hath No Fury]

157. Israel is allowed --

to fight back and protect itself from violence. Palestinians? Not so much.

[flamingdem]

98. If the Palestinians strengthened their organization

and got rid of Hamas and replaced it with a more moderate government .. I wonder if Israel would undermine that and kill their leaders.

[Violet_Crumble]

117. From what happened in the years prior to Hamas, it wouldn't matter who leads the Palestinians...

Israel used to try to assassinate Palestinian mayors and leaders back in the 80's and I suspect the only leaders they wouldn't try to get rid of would be one whose focus was on the best interests of Israel and not of the Palestinian people....

[BlancheSplanchnik]

134. it just described the dynamic very well.

The Palestinians have no power and no organized way to defend nor regulate themselves.

And no, I do not condone the excessive force used against them.

It's just the dynamic that was well-illustrated. And so typical for human behavior.

[jillan]

63. DO NOT equate what is happening in Israel with the Jewish people - that is all I ask.

Last edited Sat Jul 19, 2014, 03:03 AM - Edit history (1)

In doing so is no different than saying Dick Cheney equals the American People.

Not all Israeli's want this. The Israeli's and the Palestinians get along alot better than this.
It's their fucking right wing extremists governments that are causing all this. Just like WE were ashamed of the hell we unleashed in Iraq. And Vietnam.

And as far as American Jews, well the MAJORITY of us are Democrats - die-hard liberals who want peace in the ME and all over the world.

Go ahead and bitch all you want about Netanyahu and how he is a bastard that should BURN in HELL.
But please do NOT think for one second that this is what the Jewish people want.

Yes there are right wing nuts Extremists in Israel, just as there are here. But you know damn well that Cheney and Kristol and the whole PNAC gang does not represent you. It is no different in Israel.

This is where your argument fails. Blame the government & the assholes in charge but LEAVE YOUR ANTI-SEMITISM ELSEWHERE.

[GoneFishin]

79. Thank you. I think that is important for everyone to know. nt

[malaise]

89. Agreed

but remember Bibi is the Prime Minister and people voted for him.

[barbtries]

101. did you mean the palestinians?

[BlueMTexpat]

108. I most wholeheartedly agree with your post.

In fact, it is RW US Evangelicals who are also a HUGE part of the problem - promoting anything that they can to provoke their idea of Armageddon.

Such a "Christian" idea.

[Enthusiast]

133. True.

The Talibangelists are obsessed with this contrived end times bullshit.

[TiberiusB]

118. What anti-semitism?

I must have missed something (always possible). Did the original post call out Jews as being to blame for the situation in Gaza, or Israel? You are correct, Dick Cheney hardly represents all of the U.S., but for a time he did largely control our foreign policy and helped initiate two major conflicts, all with the blessing of a significant portion of the population.

At least for a while.

Pointing that out is no more anti-Christian than pointing out that Israel's aggressive policy toward the Palestinians is somehow anti-Semitic. And while many Israelis are opposed to the continued oppression of the Palestinians, there must be a sizable contingent that are just fine with the status quo, or Netanyahu wouldn't be in power. He was elected, right? They don't have electronic voting in Israel, do they?

[jillan]

164. Yes Netanyahu was elected. So was Bush and Cheney for 2 terms. Re-elected AFTER the world knew they

lied us into war. How did we feel after their re-election?

Not all people that support Israel are Zionists just as not all Palestinians belong to Hamas.
Are there Zionists in Israel? Hell ya - too many, just as there are too many leaders in Palestine that want to see the end of Israel.

You cannot judge an entire country by its leaders.

You cannot blame The Jews for what is going on in the Middle East no more than you can the Palestinians.
Blame their leaders.

[Enthusiast]

132. PLUS ONE! Thank you, jillan.

I would love to see Israel with a more moderate government. Netanyahu has got to go!

[smirkymonkey]

151. +100

[McCamy Taylor]

66. Israel does not represent Judaism. They hide behind Judaism to excuse what they do.

Judaism is to Israel what the Catholic Church was to the Conquistadors. Judaism in Israel is like Buddhism in Myanmar.

When we criticize Israel, we criticize Israel. I refuse to sully a perfectly good religion by attributing to it the crap that Israel gets up to.

[Bohunk68]

131. Thank you for the most sensible post on this thread.

I am amazed by the replies of some who have usually come across as well-informed and reasonably sane UNTIL it comes to Israel, and then it becomes blame the people who have lived there for the past 2000 years and make them pay for the atrocities of those who claim the land because their holy scriptures tell them that their G-d gave it to them. Incredible how people will contort themselves to justify the slaughter of children. Children whose only crime seems to have been being born Palestinian.

[jillan]

165. Thank you!

[alterfurz]

68. ho-hum, just "cutting the grass"...

"...the conflict remains at a relatively low level until, every couple of years, it flares up with heavy Israeli strikes on Gaza that also cost a large number of Palestinian lives. But it kills very few Israelis, which is a big part of why Israeli voters and leaders have appeared willing to accept it.

"This Israeli strategy is sometimes described as "cutting the grass." In this thinking, Israel never really solves the conflict or even tries; it tolerates a level of violence from Gaza-based militant groups, but every few years bombs and maybe invades Gaza to weaken militants there and destroy their weapons – to cut the grass. It treats the Israel-Palestine conflict, at least as it pertains to Gaza, as something to be managed rather than solved.

"It is important to stress that this strategy is not one that ever produces peace or that is designed to lead to a solution. It accepts a low level of Israeli deaths from rocket fire, and occasionally dozens or hundreds of Palestinian deaths from air strikes, as status quo."

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths

[obxhead]

70. and YEARS of blockades that stop food and medical shipments.

There are terrorists out there, but some of them have F-18's they purchased (were given at pennies on the dollar) from the US. Others are called that and have home made rockets to attempt a counter insurgence.

[EX500rider]

90. Actually the IAF has zero F-18's

They do have F-16's and F-15's

[PatrynXX]

71. wonder if it's anti semitic if one is from Israel

I know they exist. with numbers)

all Ben did was make Hamas look like the good guys. defending Palestine. which has no such iron dome or warning system and zero trust in israel.. So go ahead Ben your really gonna have a bad day someday well actually probably not you but the people of Israel you supposedly serve I find him more of an Anti Semite than most

[locks]

73. Don't forget

that the Iron Dome, the tanks, the missiles, the soldiers carrying the huge guns, the rockets that bring down planes, the planes, ships, subs, and drones that can kill with the push of a button hundreds of miles away, the nuclear bombs and the cluster bombs killing and injuring children, the 400 BILLION dollar F-35s that won't fly, ALL were built and paid for by the "civilized" nations with their huge techno/military international corporations.
How ironic that we have the hubris to blame any countries using them?

[imthevicar]

94. For Me to be Anti-Semitic,

90% of Israel would have to Be Semitic First.

[cali]

109. bzzzt. fail. anti-semitic means bigoted against Jews. Period. duh.

do look up the etymology of the term.

Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is prejudice, hatred of, or discrimination against Jews as a national, ethnic, religious or racial group.[1] A person who holds such positions is called an "antisemite". As Jews are an ethnoreligious group, antisemitism is generally considered a form of racism.

While the term's etymology might suggest that antisemitism is directed against all Semitic people, the term was coined in the late 19th century in Germany as a more scientific-sounding term for Judenhass ("Jew-hatred&quot ,[2] and that has been its normal use since then.[3] For the purposes of a 2005 U.S. governmental report, antisemitism was considered "hatred toward Jews—individually and as a group—that can be attributed to the Jewish religion and/or ethnicity."[4]

<snip>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

[NealK]

99. K&R

[StoneCarver]

129. Turn the whole thing into a UN protectorate

It breaks my heart to see this fighting and hatred going on -on both sides. The only solution is to turn all of Israel and the occupied territories into a unified state under the UN. It will be the first state in human history owned by all, and by none -Jewish, Christian, and Muslim. We can call it a "religious park" open from 8am to 8pm everyone can visit -but just visit. Then there will be nothing to fight over.
The Palestinians have as much rights as native Americans and the Isralies have as much right as the druids do to all of England (because they both once lived there ~2000 years ago).

[R. Daneel Olivaw]

139. I guess that the recs show that this post resonates with DU.

The has baristas should take note.

[emsimon33]

143. And despite what the Israelis say, it is about gas!

They thought that the Holocaust was terrible, the karma of what they are doing to the Palestinians will be so much worse!

[JI7]

149. are you saying the israelis deserve worse than the holocaust ?

[HooptieWagon]

153. Germans slaughtered Jews,...

... so the Jews are entitled to steal Palestinian land and slaughter them? A rather perverted sense of logic and justice there.

[MADem]

154. There is an element of truth to every response to this OP.

When one side has more "stuff" than the other side, asymmetrical warfare is bound to be the result. It's not rocket science.

Do I have an answer? Not one that will satisfy all parties. No one does.

[Pisces]

159. Those with more power and money have the responsibility to be the bigger people. Some past wrongs

have to be overlooked and sucked up. The world will not be as sympathetic to Israel after his debacle. Seeing children and women
killed while Israeli's cheer is the worst optics. The media is doing its damnedest to help Israel, but we can see and hear
what is happening. The retaliation to some terrorist against civilians will not play well. May do well at home for Bibi in the
short run as Israeli's support this action, but not one else does. Some are just now paying attention with no background history
only pics of blown up kids and cheering crowds. Nice

[woo me with science]

160. K&R