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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhat if the wimpy, frightened, yet intrigued Shades of Grey character was a male college student?
Last edited Mon Jul 28, 2014, 01:21 AM - Edit history (2)
And the Dom was an older, rich female?
Would this book have sold 100 million copies worldwide? Or would it have been the laughingstock this book deserves to be?
And isn't this what bothers many of us? That the popularity of the series demonstrates and reinforces the unequal positions of men and women in society?
historylovr
(1,557 posts)And I'm leaning toward total flop. No pun intended.
moriah
(8,311 posts)It's hard for me to verbalize exactly why this kind of thinking offends me. Perhaps if I were a male submissive I could verbalize it more clearly, but the way you write this makes it sound like a man should be ashamed if he leans that way in the bedroom.
I mean, why would it make it more likely for the book to be seen as trash if the sexes were reversed? I don't get it.
Edit to add: Do not underestimate the buying power of men when it comes to porn. It's quite possible that the book and or movie would have had much higher sales, albeit probably in very different sections of the bookstore, had it been marketed toward men.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)That women, in large numbers, would like to buy a book featuring a female Dom who treated the young man as Christian treats Anastasia?
Why would it be unlikely? Look around in our culture. Who commits the large majority of crimes of violence and rape? Not women. Who are most likely to be seriously physically assaulted by members of the opposite sex? Not men.
moriah
(8,311 posts).... is such a manifestation of rape culture that it could not be a best seller if the roles were reversed? In your opinion?
If you didn't know, there are many submissive men out there, and dominant women. There are also people who practice BDSM with same-sex partners. As a matter of fact, when you look for online erotica, you're far more likely to find material written for submissive men than you are submissive women, because men consume more porn.
Honestly, the wide availability of free porn depicting female domination is the only reason why it might not *sell*... but viewership certainly could be high.
eridani
(51,907 posts)I think that's for the same reason that there are usually a lot more readers than writers, and more people in the audience than on stage.
historylovr
(1,557 posts)a questionable hit at best, and b) if a young college guy was the sub, would this novel have been publicized and talked about in the mainstream media the way it has been? But that may be because I'd already been thinking along those lines. And no, I don't think male subs should be ashamed, or female subs, or whoever. I also don't think this novel would have been promoted the way it has been if the dynamics were reversed. There would have been some word of mouth, but I doubt it would have gotten air time outside of a niche market.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)Of that we can be fairly certain.
There is that.
betsuni
(25,582 posts)in a drab outfit with a bad hairstyle and later slap on the makeup and fix everything and like magic, she's pretty! In the trailer it looks like they copied the interview scene in "The Devil Wore Prada." I guess that's harder to pull off for boys. There doesn't seem to be one original idea in this whole Shades business.
just watch any of the myriad of movies from the 80's where a guy starts off as a geeky character and becomes a stud by the end of the film.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)bluestateguy
(44,173 posts)But it will make too many people angry, so I'll keep it private for now.
Suburban Warrior
(405 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)If we were to simply gender-swap, then Ana (...Andy?) is a hapless "emasculated sub-beta" while christian (...Christina, I guess) becomes a shallow, bitchy, emotionally vacant "hose-beast."
Mind, all we'd be doing is changing the genders, not their actions or personalities in any way.
It's not a bad exercise for examining both society's toxic gender expectations, but also all the shit that is deeply wrong with the books.
betsuni
(25,582 posts)If 50 Shades is called "mommy porn" then if the student was a 22-year-old guy it would be "cougar porn."
MADem
(135,425 posts)The whole idea of those sorts of trashy novels is for the readers (and the target audience is women) to put themselves in the character of the heroine, with all of her angst and tribulations.
The heroine is supposedly young and beautiful. I just can't see the target purchasers (those who like "romance" or "erotic" reading material) buying this novel and putting themselves in the place of some young man getting into a sketchy sexual situation. They certainly wouldn't want to put themselves in the place of the older female--the whole idea is to escape to a time when one was (virtually) at the height of their attractiveness.
I think, seriously, if the book had been written as you suggest, it might have sunk like a stone in terms of sales, but it probably would be regarded as more original and creative than the current iteration.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)ie, a young woman is trained by an older woman.
Lesbian BDSM in particular.
The problem with the OP's theme is that women aren't going to see anything alluring about a young college student basically having his wet dream fulfilled.
MADem
(135,425 posts)I don't know how much a lesbian would enjoy that theoretical work. Then again, it's not the sort of subject that ordinarily comes up with any lesbians I know!
My sense is that the reader wants to put themselves in the "role" of the heroic/main character in these stories. The older person isn't the hero--the younger one is. The older person advances the story line and serves as an object for the focus of the younger person, but the older person is only of interest because of his (or in the imaginary book, her) behavior towards the hero in the piece.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)However it can be reversed where the older, waif lady gets to have the young construction worker type, so it's not necessarily an age thing, imo.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)She has to be, otherwise the escapist fantasy is ruined. Women have to be able to project themselves onto her. So she must be a woman that people, especially men and rival women, are indifferent toward.
Christian Grey can't be a penniless, powerless college boy. Women don't fantasize about that. They want the multibillionaire alpha male who is obsessed with the everygirl. Obsession is the opposite of indifference, and I suppose the obsession of the most desirable male (looks+success) is the ultimate prize.
Women who read the book wouldn't relate to the powerful woman, and wouldn't desire the wimpy man.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)I don't think so.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Although some men have boyhood desires about their teachers and live them out later on in life. Usually by having their partner dress up as a teacher.
The teacher in the teacher fantasy isn't Christian Grey, but she represents a realistic female figure of authority. However, they wouldn't buy a book, they'd just watch porno or act it out IRL.
BainsBane
(53,041 posts)Nor does the book appeal to every woman.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Have to ask them and take up their personal preferences with them.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)How many women violently attack men? Same thing.
So why would you think significant numbers of women would purchase this book if the roles were reversed?
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)But they did when the roles were set up as they were.
Many women seem to enjoy such fantasies - and many men like the same thing in reverse (hence the prevalence of some many dominatrixes).
People like letting go, while still having some control. You often see powerful men liking submissive roles. On the flip side, you see women, who for whatever reason, like the fantasy (example, they don't have a great sex life, don't want to cheat, and fantasize about being a role where they have both - sexual fantasy that is somewhat forced and they don't have guilt).
Women who like more sub roles (which is really a dom role, subs control things) will relate more to such stories. They would relate less if roles were reversed.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)When was that?
There's no way to imagine that this book, with the roles reversed, would have sold 47 million US copies. Or anything close. And that's because the genders still aren't even close to being equal in society.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)The roles as they set up in the book appealed to a lot of women.
If you think it is just because of societal roles I don't know what to tell you - just tell those women they are wrong, shame on them for desiring what they do, and blame everyone else for them wanting to role play that way.
Men and women often find themselves in various roles, many times a 'switch' where sometimes they want to be a sub, sometimes a dom. There is a lot of escapism in fantasies, and I don't see the need to shame women because of their desires or their choices or try to tell them they are just victims of the patriarchy and have no idea what they want.
Other people seem fine with trying to educate them and make them ashamed of what they desire.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)to improve society so women are less likely to have fantasies involving powerful but abusive men.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)and that because of society that is the only reason they have these fantasies. That the they don't really want them but because of how things are they, and not people like you who know better, have been tricked/forced into wanting something they should not.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)I've heard from women who say they couldn't get through the book, and I'm betting there are a lot like that.
But I think the book promotes a very dangerous idea, that too many women, sadly, have: that the right woman can reform an abusive man, who will then be her perfect partner. No one is the perfect partner -- but especially not abusive people. No one should get involved with an abusive person thinking that person can be reformed. Women who think that can end up dead.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Fifty shades of grey is nothing new. My mother in law reads "romance novels" and after this book came out, I flipped through a number of them. This shitty storey line is common in all of these books. Why this turd became the one to blow up is beyond me. However, I am flabbergasted as to why this theme is so damn popular and successful.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)You're the one who seems to have a problem about its popularity.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)would never have been sold in this country with the roles reversed tells us a lot about the relative positions of men and women in society.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)In their consumption of erotic materials. I think that eventually there will be a convergence, but that's a generation or two away.
Quantess
(27,630 posts)I don't give a shit.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)It's just not as popular. Maybe one day it'll be as popular as male domination stuff.
As long as the consumer market eats it up it'll exist.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)relative positions of men and women in society -- and explains why women might want to fantasize a relationship with a rich, powerful man -- even if he was abusive.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)The problem isn't the work, however, it's the consumers who desire that kind of writing. It is very very common in Harlequin stuff. A strong male role and a diminutive female role who desires that strong, interesting, fascinating character.
Part of me thinks it's actually due to men being drab and uninteresting in real life.
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)It's rooted in gender roles.
Many women have this fantasy that the female character in this book experiences. The problem is this fantasy, most of the time, flies in the face of feminism. It goes completely against everything feminism is trying to accomplish.
Unfortunately though, most feminists here would rather focus their attacks against this story on the sexual content being displayed on the screen instead of the unequal power structures of society that supports the fantasy that even led to the creation of the story to begin with.
pnwmom
(108,990 posts)that encourages vulnerable women to think they can "reform" abusive men, and turn these men into protectors.
If every word of dialogue and action was retained, but the male character turned into an ordinary looking supermarket clerk or a gas station attendant, the sales would have been practically zero. It's the wealth and power that are the real lure. Some women are like Anastasia -- they would do anything for that, and they don't see a way to do it on their own.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Last edited Mon Jul 28, 2014, 06:35 AM - Edit history (1)
I don't know if the book sold as well as '50 shades' but it obviously did well enough to get Hollywood to make an exceedingly bad film out of it in 1994.
Maybe you don't remember Dana Delaney in dominatrix garb, but I do.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)you bring them back. Thanks the fuck alot!!
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Yeah, that movie was.... something to behold. I can't imagine Anne Rice appreciated what they did to her book.
waddirum
(979 posts)... but that photo is pretty hot.
Response to pnwmom (Original post)
steve2470 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Kurska
(5,739 posts)steve2470
(37,457 posts)Somehow I think book sales would suffer a tad.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)And what if she had a speech condition that made her only able to swear in Esperanto- backwards?
Dear God, what sorts of ingrained power structures, cultural heteronormative narratives would be thusly enabled and reenforced, then?
The mind boggles.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Maybe the author will try those...throw shit against the wall and see what sticks ? It could be an interesting experiment
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)You guys crack me up.
merrily
(45,251 posts)However, I do know that you are not the first or only female to object to the book because of what it says about the female gender. And about sexual acts that might not all be 100% consensual.
Again, I speak only what I personally have heard people say. Apart from that, I have no first-hand knowledge.
I hope that is adequate disclosure and disclaimer, even for a message board. (Sometimes seems as though nothing ever is.)