Question remains whether assaults were launched to punish Hamas for something it didn't do

[bigtree]

from Peter Hart at FAIR:

Why is this war happening?

The conventional answer tells us that the June abduction and murders of three Israeli teenagers is the answer. This crime was carried out by Hamas, Israeli officials claim, and it led to a brutal crackdown on Hamas officials in the West Bank. Hundreds were detained, and several Palestinians died in clashes with Israeli security forces. Rocket fire from Gaza then intensified, forcing the Israelis to launch the current military assault.

But did Hamas actually kill Naftali Fraenkel, Eyal Yifrach and Gilad Shaar? And if there's no evidence that they did, shouldn't more journalists be pressing Israeli officials about their claims?

Washington Post (7/22/14) :

Israel accused Hamas of orchestrating the killing. Israeli troops cracked down hard on the militant group in the West Bank; Hamas responded by escalating rocket fire from Gaza into Israel.

Time magazine's Joe Klein (7/24/14) blamed Hamas for 'Provoking' Israel:

The initial provocation, the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers, was indefensible, as was a retaliatory murder of a Palestinian teen. In a moment of moral clarity, Hamas lauded its kidnappers, while a furious Netanyahu called the retaliation "reprehensible."

It is true that Hamas lauded the kidnappings, most likely as one way to strike a prisoner swap with Israel. The group did not claim responsibility for that action, though–which is precisely what one would have expected them to do.

So what is the evidence–other than Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's word–that Hamas carried out these murders? A CNN report (http://edition.cnn.com/2014/06/15/world/meast/west-bank-jewish-teens-missing/" target="_blank">6/15/14) noted:

A Hamas spokesman in Gaza told CNN that Netanyahu's comments attributing blame were "stupid and baseless."

"The arrest campaign made by the Israeli occupation in the West Bank is targeted to break the backbone of Hamas and bring it down, but the Israelis will not succeed in achieving their goal," Sami Abu Zuhri said.

Fox News host Howard Kurtz (7/27/14) was, like Klein, sure about what happened: "There is no question that Hamas started the latest round of Mideast violence, first with the killing of three Israeli teenagers, and then by firing rockets indiscriminately at the Jewish state." When it was noted on Twitter that there were still no evidence that Hamas was responsible (Mediaite, 7/27/14), Kurtz tweeted: "My point on the three slain Israeli teenagers is that Hamas praised killings as a heroic act." Which is, of course, not the same point at all.

(The Al-Jazeera interview in which Hamas chief Khaled Mashaal heralded the abduction of the teenagers as "a heroic act"–in the Times of Israel's paraphrase, 6/24/14–took place on June 23, a week before the discovery of the youth's bodies, so it's also inaccurate to say that Hamas praised the "killings.&quot

Journalism about the current violence is bound to focus on the death and destruction in Gaza. But there remains ample space to ask whether the war was launched to punish Hamas for something it had nothing to do with.


read more: http://www.fair.org/blog/2014/07/28/why-is-israel-attacking-gaza/

[hack89]

1. Don't you think the rocket attacks that proceeded the IDF operation had something to do with it? nt

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. Oh, come on. Get real.

That has been debunked so many times, by so many, it is an insult to even argue that.

Only someone ignorant or on AIPAC's pay would still raise anything so full of lies and deceit. Luckily, with reading, ignorance can be cured.

[hack89]

3. So give me a couple of examples of this "debunking"

I think you are making shit up.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. Oh, man. here we go again.

NO, I won't get sucked into a pointless argument with a blinders-wearing, pro-israel person who ends up accusing anyone with some hard facts of being anti-semitic.

[hack89]

7. I knew you had nothing. nt

[ChairmanAgnostic]

21. you are so full of it.

Here:

http://www.thenation.com/article/180783/five-israeli-talking-points-gaza-debunked?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_term=email_nation&utm_campaign=Email%20Nation%20%28NEW%29%20-%20Headline%20Nation%20Feed%2007292014&newsletter=email_nation

read it and weep. For the all those dead innocents.

[frylock]

12. happy to oblige..

not that it's going to make any difference to you, or the small group of posters that continue to ignore these facts.

6) This current Gaza conflict began with Hamas rocket fire on 30 June 2014

Times of Israel: "Hamas operatives were behind a large volley of rockets which slammed into Israel Monday morning, the first time in years the Islamist group has directly challenged the Jewish state, according to Israeli defense officials.. The security sources, who spoke on condition of anonymity, assessed that Hamas had probably launched the barrage in revenge for an Israeli airstrike several hours earlier which killed one person and injured three more.. Hamas hasn't fired rockets into Israel since Operation Pillar of Defense ended in November 2012." The Nation: "During ten days of Operation Brother's Keeper in the West Bank [before the start of the Gaza conflict], Israel arrested approximately 800 Palestinians without charge or trial, killed nine civilians and raided nearly 1,300 residential, commercial and public buildings. Its military operation targeted Hamas members released during the Gilad Shalit prisoner exchange in 2011."

8) Hamas provoked Israel by kidnapping and killing three Israeli teenagers

Jewish Daily Forward: "The [Israeli] government had known almost from the beginning that the boys were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas' West Bank operations.. Nor was that the only fib. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers weren't acting on orders from Hamas leadership in Gaza or Damascus. Hamas' Hebron branch -- more a crime family than a clandestine organization -- had a history of acting without the leaders' knowledge, sometimes against their interests." BBC correspondent Jon Donnison: "Israeli police MickeyRosenfeld tells me men who killed 3 Israeli teens def lone cell, hamas affiliated but not operating under leadership.. Seems to contradict the line from Netanyahu government."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025305108

[bigtree]

24. not sure it was actually an invitation for info

. . . just a curiously presumptuous assertion.

[frylock]

25. of course it wasn't..

this poster NEVER responds to uncomfortable truths. I'm sure he's in 5 other threads repeating his debunked, propagandist bullshit.

[TheKentuckian]

16. Debunk doesn't mean an alternative argument was offered.

How many have we killed that launched nary a bottle rocket at us or even know someone who did?

Hell, we've slaughtered tens and hundreds of thousands and set in motion events that got many more killed in a country that not only did not attack us at all but was under aircap and embargo the whole time.

We are in Yemen killing away folks that didn't attack us at all but happen to be on the wrong side of a civil war with "a friend".

We have occupied Afghanistan for over a decade, killing God knows how many because their country "harbored" terrorists.

We kiss the ass of the country that funds most global terror (including the various terror groups in Palestine) and was the place of origin of the vast majority of those who actually perpetrated the acts of terror.

We blow up weddings and funerals all the time. We kill who we will and just declare them "combatants" based purely on demographics.

I see no indication that any country would react measurably better to similar circumstances, and many (including our own) would react much, much worse.

Considering the concentration and mission, I doubt anyone would have significantly fewer civilian deaths. At the population density it would seem only the utmost care would keep the numbers as minimal.
This is in no way the fruits of carelessness and absolutely impossible to describe with any honesty (though some insist on doing so anyway) as a pogrom to annihilate the Palestinians. If someone were actively attempting so with the firepower available, we'd be talking at least into the hundreds of thousands dead and realistically in that kind of concentration with a concerted effort they all might be dead by now.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians and many Arabs are making their very best effort toward genocide and just don't have the capacity as evidenced by multiple wars, decades of terrorism including bombings, and the current indiscriminate rocket bombardment.
Shit, it is the public assertion of the intent of the actions, it isn't even a secret, it is just ignored almost like it is cute because of ineffectiveness

[bigtree]

6. I'm going to make this clear for you. You're free to disagree

I can see how ignoring Netanyahu's initial and immediate declaration that "Hamas will pay," and discounting the West Bank raids in which 350 to over 800 Palestinians were reported jailed and interrogated simply over the disappearance of the teens and several lost their lives would lead you to the conclusion that it was just rockets fired from Gaza which provided pretext.

It may seem no consequence to you, but to the occupied Palestinians, the raids and killings which PRECEDED any rocket attacks by either side, was provocation enough; deliberate and falsely orchestrated provocation, if you believe that Hamas was not responsible for the abductions.

The declarations by the Israelis, led by Netanyahu, that the kidnappings (not the deaths that they reportedly already knew about but were covering up to advantage their raids and crackdown) should force Abbas to split from Hamas, was the most glaring indication that Netanyahu intended to use the teen's abduction in the most craven political manner imaginable.

Knowing full well that the teens were already dead, Netanyahu ordered a 'search' for the teens which involved raids and arrests on the West Bank, resulting the deaths of at least four Palestinians by Israeli security forces, including an apparently mentally unstable man and a 14-year-old boy near Hebron.

Thousands of Israeli troops searched hundreds of locations in the West Bank and arrested hundreds of Palestinians, including some who were freed in a 2011 prisoner exchange for Hamas-kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit.

here's a June 22 account:

Israel has conclusive evidence that Hamas is behind the June 12 kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers, and is passing that evidence on to several other countries before releasing it publicly, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Sunday morning.

Netanyahu also said that Palestinian deaths that have occurred as a result of the ongoing Israeli operation in the West Bank to rescue the kidnapped teens were unintentional.

Israel has “unequivocal proof that this is Hamas,” Netanyahu said ahead of the weekly cabinet meeting in Jerusalem. “We are sharing this proof and information to this effect with several countries. Soon this information will be made public.”

The prime minister said that once it became known on the world stage that Hamas had initiated the kidnapping, previous remarks by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, in which he condemned the kidnapping, “will be put to the test in practice. His remarks will be tested not only by actions to return the boys home but by his willingness to dissolve the unity government with Hamas, which abducted the youths and calls for the destruction of Israel.”

Israeli officials have publicly stated that in addition to rescuing the teens, weakening Hamas and breaking up the Palestinian unity government are goals in the operation.

So, when viewing the chronicle of events in a proper order, it's clear that the kidnappings were used as pretext for Israeli military action against Palestinians, made even more egregious if you believe BBC journalist Jon Donnison's reporting, Sheera Frenkel's report, or even Gershom Gorenberg's report citing former General Shlomo Brom that most everyone in the Israeli security circle knew well that these children were already dead and that Hamas was likely not even involved.

here's a reasonably written account by J.J. Goldberg at the Jewish Daily Forward:

____ Once the boys’ disappearance was known, troops began a massive, 18-day search-and-rescue operation, entering thousands of homes, arresting and interrogating hundreds of individuals, racing against the clock. Only on July 1, after the boys’ bodies were found, did the truth come out: The government had known almost from the beginning that the boys were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas’ West Bank operations.

The initial evidence was the recording of victim Gilad Shaer’s desperate cellphone call to Moked 100, Israel’s 911. When the tape reached the security services the next morning — neglected for hours by Moked 100 staff — the teen was heard whispering “They’ve kidnapped me” (“hatfu oti”) followed by shouts of “Heads down,” then gunfire, two groans, more shots, then singing in Arabic. That evening searchers found the kidnappers’ abandoned, torched Hyundai, with eight bullet holes and the boys’ DNA. There was no doubt.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu immediately placed a gag order on the deaths. Journalists who heard rumors were told the Shin Bet wanted the gag order to aid the search. For public consumption, the official word was that Israel was “acting on the assumption that they’re alive.” It was, simply put, a lie.

Nor was that the only fib. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers weren’t acting on orders from Hamas leadership in Gaza or Damascus. Hamas’ Hebron branch — more a crime family than a clandestine organization — had a history of acting without the leaders’ knowledge, sometimes against their interests. Yet Netanyahu repeatedly insisted Hamas was responsible for the crime and would pay for it.

This put him in a ticklish position. His rhetoric raised expectations that after demolishing Hamas in the West Bank he would proceed to Gaza.

The statements and actions of Netanyahu and other Israeli officials - knowing full well that the children were already dead and that Hamas was likely not involved - clearly illustrate the pretext used to initiate the subsequent military action; not just rockets fired, from either side. They also clearly illustrate the importance of what the Netanyahu government knew and when they knew it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

11. "Hamas will pay,"???

[bigtree]

14. horrible

“. . . one hell of a pin-point operation”

[frylock]

26. how very telegenic

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. Yes. It was ever so generous of Israel to supply the models for the photo-shoot.

[cpwm17]

35. It's weird how out of the innumerable crimes Israel commits against the Palestinians

I don't hear any of the war mongers claim the Palestinians have a right to level Israeli cities and murder Israeli children. But the war mongers look so hard to find any action by the Palestinians, in the background of the numerous abuses by Israel that take place every day, that can justify mass murder against the very same Palestinians. I find it very sickening.

[bigtree]

36. this is true, cpwm

. . . no one has the 'right' to level cities and kill civilians; although we regularly allow these same people the right to assert that.

[malaise]

31. FFS

Wheel and come again - your meme no longer works. You sound like a hack! Oh wait.

[4Q2u2]

4. Trying to end Hamas?

A lot of Hama's money people are in fights for their lives right now. Their military support and money are drying up. Israel believes that this is the time that they can strike the killing blow. Hamas just gave them the excuse Israel was looking for with the rockets. If that is the case then no matter who is President or Sec Of State Israel will continue if they believe they can finish off Hamas.

As usual there are 2 wrongs here. That is the nature of most wars.

[sabrina 1]

19. If they believe they can 'finish off' any group of people who exist BECAUSE of all the killing and

theft of land, by killing more innocent people, they are not fit to be in any position of power. Do they think that the dead children, innocent, and definitely not Hamas, is going to make everyone love them now, that those horrendous deaths will not lead to even MORE anger towards them and more determination to get revenge?

ANYONE who thinks like that is a threat to society. Certainly they are a threat to Israel's future.

They've been doing this for decades and nothing has changed. What's different now is the world is watching and they have lost support around the globe for these repeated killings of innocent Palestinians. Their talking points, name calling of those who condemn their actions, are falling on deaf ears, including their use of the 'anti-Semite' charge.

There is now just one wrong and it's ongoing. Daily they are killing Palestinians, many of them innocent children and that is what the world is seeing and all the excuses are only making people more angry towards them. They take no responsibility for their actions, or their own role in the conflict.

[HooptieWagon]

8. Israel was just looking for an excuse to kill Gazans.

It didn't matter if the excuse was truthful or not, since if its proven to be a lie, as is likely, it will only be corrected in 3 months on page 15 with a tiny headline.

[oberliner]

10. Why does Israel want to kill Gazans?

What would be the motive for doing that?

[HooptieWagon]

13. Because they exist.

Why does any extreme right-wing govt wage economic and military war on poor people?

[oberliner]

18. They existed a month ago

Why take this action now?

[Uncle Joe]

28. Because Hamas and Fatah had formed a unity government and they were going to hold elections.

On a thread by Jefferson.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/113463629


By Peter Beinart | Jun. 3, 2014 | 4:47 PM


On the Israeli and American Jewish right, it’s common to hear Mahmoud Abbas dismissed as illegitimate: Both because he remains president of the Palestinian Authority even though his term long ago expired, and because he doesn’t oversee the Gaza Strip, which since 2007 has been under the control of Hamas.

Well, hawks, fret no more. The Palestinians have just formed a unity cabinet designed to lay the groundwork for elections in both the West Bank and Gaza. The effort may fail, but it offers the best chance in years to create what the Jewish right says it wants: A Palestinian leader with the legitimacy to make a deal.

So how are Benjamin Netanyahu and his conservative American allies reacting? Not well. The Israeli government is threatening to end all contact with the Palestinian Authority and some Republicans in Congress are pushing to cut off U.S. aid. The reason: The new government has the blessing of Hamas.

And here’s where things get interesting. For years, Israel has justified its opposition to a government that includes Hamas by citing a statement by the “Quartet”-- the United States, European Union, the United Nations and Russia—in 2008. That statement demands that any Palestinian government recognize Israel, adhere to previously signed treaties and renounce violence. But the new Palestinian government gets around that. Although Hamas as a party still doesn’t accept the Quartet conditions, Abbas—who will remain President—insists that the unity government does. His aides point to Lebanon, whose government includes Hezbollah, which like Hamas is designated as a terrorist group by the United States. The U.S. shuns Lebanon’s Hezbollah ministers, but accepts the Lebanese government as a whole. Abbas wants his new government to get the same treatment.

(snip)

There is more information on that thread.

[oberliner]

30. Thanks

That makes more sense than "they exist".

[Comrade Grumpy]

15. Why don't you ask the Israelis? Maybe the racist crowds in Tel Aviv will give you a hint.

[oberliner]

17. Because Israelis are racists?

Is that the answer you are suggesting?

[sabrina 1]

20. Well, they certainly have at least two openly racist members of their parliament. Nothing has been

done to either of them that I am aware of. And what would you call those mobs in the streets beating up Israelis who are protesting these horrific attacks on Gaza, chanting songs, mocking the deaths of Palestinian children? We have our own racists here who were given free rein for far too long, but I cannot imagine anyone in Congress today remaining there if they were to advocate the killing of all African American children and their mothers, calling them 'little snakes'.

If the world is getting the idea that Israel's Govt is racist, don't blame the world, look at WHY the world is getting that impression.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

22. plus, those videos of cheering Israelis, each time a new missile/bomb/shell explodes in Gaza

They were FUCKING PARTYING AND CHEERING.

[oberliner]

23. As do most countries

I would dare say the good old US of A has a lot more than 2 in our Congress. I guess for the most part they are more PC about it so it goes down a little easier for most people.

I think you can take video of people saying vile things pretty much anywhere in the world - especially in countries that are engaged in military conflict.

Like, for instance, Russia or the Ukraine.

Or, maybe, a tea party meeting?

[sabrina 1]

32. We, the US, have zero moral authority, a priceless quality we lost when we invaded a country based

on lies and murdered over one million people, tortured and imprisoned countless more, maimed for life the 'lucky' ones, and created such a toxic waste environment with our WMDs that babies are being born there totally deformed or live only a short time. Iow, we didn't just kill the living, we killed future generations also.

You will get no argument from me about the racism, which all of our wars demonstrate, and corruption and War Crimes committed by the US Government, with the support of a large part of the population.

But we are not talking about this country, in this thread. If we were I could write a book on what I think of all the corruption and racism and illegal activities perpetrated by this Govt. It is the REASON why when we admonish anyone else, especially when admonishment is badly needed and justified, like Israel right now, they can turn around and point a finger right back at us. AS YOU JUST DIDl.

So I agree, this country is not the country to be involved in trying to resolve this issues, we don't have the RIGHT considering our own criminal actions against another ME country.

But we are not all represented by our government, so I am speaking for me, I wish I could point to our government as an example, but I am not stupid enough to do that.

I am talking about DECENCY, sadly lacking in our government, and Israel's and will point out what I see, both here and there.

I can only speak for myself, my government doesn't represent me. And I see racism in Israel that is extremely disturbing, and no, it isn't justified by the racism in this country. That is for another thread.

[oberliner]

34. Good points

All I am saying is that the racism all over the world - while they certainly have their fair share of racists, I don't think Israel is unique in this regard.

I think those videos kind of mirror similar videos put out by right-wing sites of groups of Arabs behaving in a similarly awful way and extrapolating it to make a comment about all Arabs.

[Comrade Grumpy]

9. Israel hated/was scared to death of unity between the PA and Hamas.

They are determined to blow that up, along with most of Gaza.

Israel lied itself into its latest war. What's new?

[Uncle Joe]

29. Hamas did something alright, they formed a unity government with Fatah and were going to hold

elections, thus combining governance of the West Bank with Gaza, that's what Israel couldn't tolerate, because a united Palestine would De Facto become a democracy.

Thanks for the thread, bigtree.

[sabrina 1]

33. I believe you got it exactly right, Uncle Joe.