I support neither Israel or Palestine in the current conflict.

[MineralMan]

Were it not for Israel's "Iron Dorm" defensive system, rockets from Gaza would have killed many. Israel, in targeting launch sites, has cause horrible collateral damage, killing many civilians, including children.

Both sides are wrong and I cannot support either side. What I can support is pressure on both sides to cease the fighting and make further attempts to settle this peaceably. I can't support anything else.

What should the United States do? My opinion is that the United States should stop all military aid to the entire Middle East. We should have done that many, many years ago. Further, we should have pressured the rest of the industrial world to also deny military aid and arms shipments to the region, and backed that up with economic sanctions against nations that did supply arms to the region.

But, I still can't support either Israel or Hamas in the current armed conflict. Both are wrong. I suppose the conflict will not end. In one way or another, it has been going on since Old Testament times. It continues. I know of no workable solution. It is a shame on humanity that we cannot live in peace with each other. But the United States should not contribute in any way to the continuation of this ages-old conflict. Neither should any other nation.

[JustAnotherGen]

1. I'm with you on this

What I can support is pressure on both sides to cease the fighting and make further attempts to settle this peaceably

[gwheezie]

2. I agree with you

Both sides are suicidal.
It's getting easier for extreme factions to hate jews or muslims depending on which side you fall on, this isn't helping.

[MineralMan]

4. Thanks.

[upaloopa]

3. The Old Testament? I think the current conflict

has it's roots in the 1940's. I would like to see a comparison of our treatment of Native Americans and the treatment of Palestinians by Israel. It seems to me a very similar story.

[MineralMan]

7. Not really. It began centuries ago.

Look at place names in the Old Testament, and then look them up on a map. Whole cities destroyed in the name of a fictional deity. Tribes and factions and warfare. On and on it goes. You cannot separate what is going on today from what went on historically for so long. Believe me, the people there do not make that distinction. It's an ancient animus at work.

[Spider Jerusalem]

17. No, it really isn't

this goes back to the turn of the last century and more specifically to c. 1940's. Israel is fundamentally a colonialist settler state. The conflict is about the displacement and dispossession of Palestine's Arab population, and their resistance to Israeli occupation, not about any "ancient animus".

[MineralMan]

20. I suggest that you're wrong. Israel is the very land the ancient Israelites

claimed was given to them by their deity. Same place names. Same peoples, too. It is the location of the first Temple. When Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt that's where they settled. After WWII and the holocaust, they were awarded their historical home by the allies and the United Nations. They moved back there from all of the places they had gone, still convinced that their deity had made that place their god-given homeland.

The place names of the Old Testament are still there. Ignoring that hides the underlying conflict that this whole thing represents. When Israel, the nation, was formed, the people living there were displaced. They want their property back. That's the conflict. It's an understandable one, actually, and on both sides. Everyone believes they are entitled to those lands. Everyone lays claim to them. They are held by the Israelis by force. The nations that created the nation of Israel in the 1940s have enabled Israel to hold that country by supplying them with the arms needed to maintain what was created.

But make no mistake, the conflict is centuries old. It gets interrupted from time to time, when another ethnic, religious, or tribal group gains control. Later, another group asserts its own control. Right now, Israel is a Jewish nation. The Palestinians disagree with their right of ownership. And so the conflict continues.

[Spider Jerusalem]

21. So?

They were scattered in the Diaspora. Coming back after two thousand years doesn't give them any intrinsic right to the land because their ancestors possessed it. And it doesn't change the fact that Israel is a colonialist settler state, nor does it change the fact that the majority of Jewish Israelis have no modern connection to the former land of Palestine prior to the 19th century inception of Zionism.

[MineralMan]

24. I don't disagree with you. Israel was created by the will of the major

powers, which disregarded its existing population. It is still the same conflict it has always been, though. It's just that an overwhelming outside force insisted on the current situation being established. Without our continuing support, it would be an untenable relationship and the are would soon revert to some other population balance.

But, the support continues. And will continue. Israel is an artificial nation. But, then, so is Iraq. So is Afghanistan. So is much of the Middle East. Its very borders were drawn by people who do not live there, and they are artificial borders. We screwed up badly, all around, in that region. We will continue to screw up there.

We should stop doing that. All major nations should stop doing that. It is Western meddling that has created much of the current imbalance in the region. When that ends completely, the people there will find their own borders. Until then, the borders are artificial, and maintained with force and military assistance. They could not stand otherwise.

[1StrongBlackMan]

50. True ...

But, the support continues. And will continue. Israel is an artificial nation. But, then, so is Iraq. So is Afghanistan. So is much of the Middle East. Its very borders were drawn by people who do not live there, and they are artificial borders. We screwed up badly, all around, in that region.

But a significant difference between Iraq, Afghanistan and much of the Middle East is, after the artificial borders were drawn, Israel was populated with people with no connection (other than religious) to the region, let alone to the actual land ... displacing those that have/had.

I make the (imperfect) analogy to gentrification, where policies are put in place by external powers, that attract wealthy whites and displace poor, long-term residential Black (and poor white) folks ... then, calling it okay because those that moved/are moving in are all Americans.

[upaloopa]

52. Sorry I have no patience with those who say

the bible or god or koran gives them some right today. People are killing each other today. That is all that matters. Anything else is mind fucking making excuses. These people were born in the last few decades and that is all the history they have one generation!

[ancianita]

5. I don't, either. I can't support believer wars, as I call them, no matter who starts them.

[MohRokTah]

6. I agree. The region has been rife with strife for millenia.

It has at one time or other been occupied by Ancient Egyptians, Canaanites, Philistines, Tjekker, Ancient Israelites, Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Ancient Greeks, Romans, Byzantines, Umayads, Abbasids, Seljuqs, Fatimids, Ayyubids, Mameluks, Ottomans, the British, The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (1948–1967, on the "West Bank&quot and Egyptian Republic (in Gaza), and modern Israelis and Palestinians.

Nobody has a clear claim to any of it and really, the only choice is to live with what currently exists as far as ownership. Move along to a two state solution, stop the violence and live on. The only other choice is continued death and destruction.

[MineralMan]

10. Exactly. Since Old Testament times.

Everyone thinks its their heritage. That's a formula for exactly what's going on. We need to stay the heck out of that ages-old conflict. We are not helping. Personally, I think that there is no help possible, in any case.

[snooper2]

8. Peace will never happen they just need to have an all out war fundie vs fundie

I'm sure the House of Saud can beef up hamas with some better weapons then they can have one last final throw down for a shitty patch of desert in the middle of nowhere...

[MineralMan]

9. That "shitty patch of desert" is believed to be the ancient

home of everyone in the area. And there's the issue. It has changed hands so many times, with so many deadly conflicts, that there's no clear line of occupying population. It's home to everyone involved. And there's the problem. Nobody wants to be kicked out of the place they think is home. Nobody. They'll fight to prevent it.

[snooper2]

15. yep, fundies with mythology handed down for thousands of years...fighting over sand LOL

At least the could have picked something nice, like this-

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. "Believed to be the ancient home" is pretty irrelevant.

The population of Palestine in 1900 was 94% Arab. The Zionist that decrease to around 66% by 1947. This is a conflict between colonial settlers and an indigenous population more than it is anything else.

[MineralMan]

22. The population balance in that patch of land has changed many times

over the centuries. When Moses led his people out of Egypt, the population balance changed. It continues to do so. Trust me, I don't hold with any religious claims of anything, since I believe all religion is bunkum. It's all a matter of force and will that determines who holds those lands. Thus has it been through human history, actually.

The cradle of civilization is also the nursery of warfare. The war that began probably 6000 years ago continues today. Same peoples. Same conflict. Different religious justifications, but the same conflict. Christianity has become the dominant world religion, and it has its roots in an Old Testament world view. So, the dominant Christian culture created modern Israel to make a place for Jewish people, who part of the so-called Christian world had tried to eliminate. The people living there at the time were Muslims. Christians don't like Muslims, so they essentially kicked them out to make room for Israel, and then supplied the Israelis with superior arms so they could hold what was created.

In another 100 years, there may be a different population there, depending on what occurs. Who knows? Right now, the United States remains strong in its support of the current population group in Israel. Me? I support neither side, and wish we'd let those who are there settle all of this on their own, whatever the outcome. We won't, though, mark my words.

[Spider Jerusalem]

23. We are not talking about the irrelevancy of what happened thousands of years ago, though.

It would be really helpful if you could stop pretending that that matters, because it doesn't. All that actually matters is a) the land that was Palestine and is now mostly Israel has been majority Muslim/Arab since roughly the sixth century, b) the indigenous population have been displaced by a massive influx of colonialist settlers who have had them under military occupation for going on fifty years.

[MineralMan]

25. Who is "We?" I am talking about it. You may not be, but I am.

I started this thread to talk about it. You may disagree with me, but you may not include me in any "we" you create.

The Western nations created Israel. It is maintained only through the use of force and the aid of the nations that created it. We screwed up, as we always do when we meddle in that region. But, there it is. That support will continue for the foreseeable future, I am sure. The reasons for that are complex.

But, the centuries of history cannot be simply discarded. They are still in play.

[Spider Jerusalem]

46. Sorry, but I think you're fundamentally wrong.

There are four dates that really matter when one considers the Israel/Palestine conflict. 1896: Herzl publishes "Der Judenstaat". 1917: Her Majesty's Foreign Office issues the Balfour Declaration. 1948: Israel declares independence, and wins the first Arab-Israeli War. 1967: The Six Day War, Israel occupies Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem (which have been under occupation since).

[bigwillq]

11. I support worrying about America

We need to mind our business. We need to stop giving money to Israel. We need to realize that nothing will ever really change in that region. Leave it alone.

[MineralMan]

12. Yup. But, we need to convince other major nations

to do the same. Unless we do that, we'll still be involved.

[bigwillq]

13. That's true.

Let's start convincing.

[MineralMan]

27. Sadly, that will take a major change in our political makeup.

Currently, we cannot even maintain a majority of progressive leadership. When we can do that, we can begin to talk about changing out policies in the Middle East. Until then, nothing will change. It's up to us, isn't it?

[think]

14. I am disgusted with the leadership of Israel. Netanyahu will be remembered as a child killer...

You can say what you want about Hamas. I'm no fan, But it's the Palistinians who are dying and living in an occupied situation.

[Coventina]

16. I support neither Israel nor Palestine in the current conflict.

I would support either one if either of them unilaterally ceased fighting, permanently, and did not retaliate when struck.

But, that will never happen, it seems.

I'm really down on the human race today.

[MineralMan]

18. Individually, humans can be wonderful. Massed together,

not so much, history demonstrates.

[Matrosov]

26. Terrorists vs terrorists

Good point, MineralMan. This is a case of terrorists fighting terrorists, and I am not sure why people sympathize with one side over the other.

Israelis have created ghetto-like conditions within the Palestinian territories, and they dismiss the innocents they kill as "necessary collateral damage." Israel also resorted to more traditional terror tactics against the British.

Palestinians have been attacking Israel since 1948 and actively supported Hamas and other terror groups that go so far as to kill innocent Israelis on buses and in markets when they have the chance.

Too many influential Israelis and Palestinians are interested in continuing the conflict. The only victims are those on both sides who wish for peace and harmonious coexistence.

[MineralMan]

29. Pretty much. It's an ugly business, and our habit of choosing sides

and meddling with the affairs of nations isn't helping. And by us, I mean the entire Euro-American assembly of nations. We're not competent to run the Middle East, and should not be attempting to do it.

[nadinbrzezinski]

28. Should I add that video?

And I agree.

[MineralMan]

31. No. Please don't. It's simplistic.

If you want to use that video, I suggest you start a thread for it. The situation is far more complex than your video represents, and the West's meddling has complicated the situation almost beyond recognition.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. I know it is far more complicated

But it does boil down to that.

This said, I would only start one OP on the subject. And I intend to only do that.

Angels, heads of pins and choruses.

I will say this. And American media has mostly ignored this. Israel is pretty good at reading tea leaves...so like they did once with France, their original patron state, they are looking to the future...look to China young man. That started early in the Iraqi misadventure.

[99Forever]

30. Well said, MM.

I agree. Both of the combatants have hands covered in the blood of innocents.

[MineralMan]

33. Yes, and the hands of American and European countries

are wet with the same blood, by proxy.

[99Forever]

53. Yes sir,

They certainly are.

[randys1]

32. Agreed, I support the people on both sides, who must be really god damn tired of this shit by now

[MineralMan]

35. The people on both sides are just pawns in the war.

They always are. It's not about the people or the individual persons. It's about something else, entirely, I'm afraid.

[randys1]

42. The fighting isnt about the people per se but the people have power, ultimately we all have

power...we have to organize to use it, is all

[MineralMan]

43. So you'd think, but it doesn't seem to be happening.

[LeftishBrit]

48. Agreed!

[JI7]

34. too bad the world can come together and force a way to solve this

create the 2 states. force israel to get rid of settlements which are in what would be part of the palestinian state.

force palestinians to have some international team go there to clear out weapons from hamas and others who want to attack israel.

there would need to be some international team which can slowly leave with time as things become more normal and there is little to no chance of fighting breaking out.

[MineralMan]

40. It's not just Israel and Palestine.

It's the entire region. National borders throughout the Middle East are artificial and have been created by the West. Solving Israel and Palestine is just a bandaid. It will not fix the region, which will continue to be artificially divided. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan and their tribal divisions within those artificial borders. Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the rest of the region, too are divided by artificial borders imposed on the region by Europe and the U.S.

We've screwed up the entire region with our meddling in the 19th century. And we can't fix it.

[killbotfactory]

36. yep, both sides are wrong

[MineralMan]

44. :shrug:

I'm not telling anyone, anywhere, what to do. I have no idea what the solution is, but I can see parts of the problem.

[Squinch]

37. I am Irish. The Irish have been engaged in one of these "you suck because your religion is

different from mine so I'm going to kill your children" conflicts for hundreds of years too. I can't get behind my own ethnic group in that crap. No way I can get behind either side in another "religious" conflict.

[MineralMan]

45. Yup. More factionalism.

Factionalism sucks!

[Tarheel_Dem]

39. It's really hard to distinguish who the good guys are in all this. The propagandists, on both sides

are equally nauseating to me. There seem to be so few honest brokers on either side of this. Netanyahu is enjoying renewed popularity at home, as he rains down death and destruction upon innocents. And Hamas, quite frankly, is winning the PR war hands down. Why else would they continue to "poke the bear"? They know that Israel could turn the entire strip into a parking lot if they chose to.

I'm exhausted just having to listen to daily death toll, and just wish that we could somehow extricate ourselves from this conflict, once and for all. Whatever we do, and whichever side we come down on, we'll always be somebody's "bad guy".

[Larkspur]

41. Israel has the 5th most powerful military in the world and the Palestinians are one of the poorest

people on this planet, who are punished by Israel for being on land that they want to steal. Israel is doing to the Palestinians what the US Government did to the Native American tribes in the 19th and early 20th century -- steal land, slaughter those that resist and shove the rest onto land that can barely support them.

[TheKentuckian]

51. When are you going to repatriate? Don't give me any baloney about natives can vote now

That was withheld until such a time as the population was destroyed enough to never conceivably have enough numbers to impact the course of the nation on anything.

Load up the Wagon and head on to England, or France, or Spain, Denmark, or Germany, Russia, or Africa (though the native rulers might consider an exception here due to circumstances). Pack light, I think much of what you own needs to go to reparations for all the resources stolen and the rest to the dependents of the slaves. I think no one will begrudge the clothes on your back and the family photo album.

Why do you think you can stay here? A little 50 or 100 year head start on lands that you can go back 10,000 years on and still have no connection but the modern?

Oh, the old motherland won't take you in? Wondering the globe without a home for all your days it is then and for your children and their's forever. Your people should have stayed their ass where they were instead of wiping people off the face of the Earth, stealing their land for their own, and taking slaves by the millions to build your lie of a nation.

Again, where the fuck are my reparations. If my tribe won't accept me then I want diaspora in style and I have it coming, no less than 20 acres and a share of mule, adjusted for inflation plus 150 years interest. I figure I should get something as a displaced native too.

[Demsrule86]

47. I have always supported Israel

However, I can not support the warmongering government now in place...they have deliberately killed civilian and behaved very badly. It offends me that our dollars pay for their bullets and that they have treated our president and Secretary of State so rudely.

[xiamiam]

49. this is a massacre..plain and simple..children with their heads and arms blown off

so glad you can be such an egalitarian with your judgment. It is monstrous and no civilized person should accept this as war or business as usual. The iron dome propaganda is just that. Its effectiveness is potentially 5%..what is effective is the required shelters in each home and the warning signals..Since the Israeli government does not think that nomadic bedouins are worthy of being sheltered, they tell them to just lie on the ground when they hear a siren. That also works. This post makes disgusts me in its cavalier attitude ..herding people into a few sa small area, and then bombing the crap out of them and their houses and any possiblility to eat and survive or even drink clean water. SHAME ON YOU