Obama:“If you blow the whistle-You should be thanked & protected for doing the right thing"

[kpete]

“If you blow the whistle,” Obama said, “you should be thanked. You should be protected for doing the right thing. You shouldn’t be ignored and you certainly shouldn’t be punished.”

hearing that kind of blew my mind


but then again:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-politics/wp/2014/08/07/obama-signs-bill-giving-more-than-16-million-to-scandal-plagued-va/

[gcomeau]

1. I can only assume...

"hearing that kind of blew my mind"

..that's a Snowden reference.


Don't understand why people don't get the difference between "whistle blowing" and "stealing information on legal classified programs and broadcasting it to the planet".

And whether or not Snowden may have done the first, he most certainly did the second. And he rightfully belongs in a cell for it.

[BillZBubb]

3. No, the NSA officials belong in a cell. Snowden deserves a Medal of Freedom.

You may like having what you term "legal classified programs". I do not. Lawyers like John Yoo made them "legal". Most of what Snowden has disclosed deals with violations of our constitutional rights. And he should be applauded for getting that information out in any way he could.

[gcomeau]

6. Oh FFS...

"You may like having what you term "legal classified programs". I do not. Lawyers like John Yoo made them "legal"."

John Yoo made having intelligence agencies conducting intelligence activities directed at the Chinese legal? REALLY?

Do try to get a grip.

[GeorgeGist]

8. We're Chinese, now?

No body tells me anything.

[gcomeau]

10. What the hell are you talking about?

Since you don't seem to be following along, *I'M* talking about the fact that beyond whatever information Snowden released about domestic activities he ALSO told the Chinese about how the NSA was penetrating their networks. Among other things that were completely unjustifiable for him to open his big mouth about.

[cantbeserious]

20. No Proof To Support That Position - All Supposition Based On Right-Wing Talking Points

eom

[gcomeau]

29. Are you freaking kidding?

It was practically the VERY FIRST THING he did when he bolted the US, he went straight to Hong Kong and the next thing we got was his release to the Chinese papers of information on how the NSA was penetrating networks in China.

[cantbeserious]

33. All Assertion - No Proof - More Talking Point Bluster

eom

[gcomeau]

35. Are you seriously this clueless on this?

http://m.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1259335/exclusive-whistle-blower-edward-snowden-talks-south-china-morning?page=all


NOBODY seriously disputes this.

[Vattel]

40. I applaud him for revealing the economic spying on China.

What he revealed was illegal and morally wrong and hypocritical (given that we were accusing the Chinese of doing that sort of espionage against us).

[gcomeau]

65. It was not "economic spying"

...just because China declared it was. the networks they penetrated are used by, among other entities, the PLA.


Can you point at a single piece of information it is claimed was acquired that was actually used for economic purposes? One? I'll wait.

[Vattel]

80. here is a very conservative discussion of the issue:

http://www.lawfareblog.com/2013/12/reflections-on-u-s-economic-espionage-post-snowden/

[gcomeau]

81. Uh-huh... from your own link

" But China’s espionage efforts are different in one key respect: China conducts surveillance on U.S. commercial entities, while the United States focuses on government targets. Although the U.S. government classifies its surveillance and does not share business secrets with U.S. companies,"

Bolded part is the important part. Another way of saying that is that the U.S. is *not* conducting "economic espionage". And yes I know that's the author quoting someone else he says he has disagreements with, but he specifically does NOT disagree with that part. Which is the determining factor in your claim that the US conducted economic espionage.


All the rest is mainly just pontificating on whether the author thinks that really matters or not.

[Vattel]

86. nah, your definition of economic espionage is too narrow

The US government can use the information it gets from its economic espionage for economic reasons even if it does not share that information with US businesses.

[gcomeau]

87. Then I repeat...

...show me ONE instance of this being done.

There were none in your linked article.

[Vattel]

88. Yes there was evidence of its being done, namely, Clapper's statements.

"Clapper’s very carefully worded statement does not deny that the USG spies on foreign firms and business interests. Rather, he denies only that the USG does so for a particular purpose, namely, to give the information to U.S. firms to help such firms be more competitive or profitable. In other words, Clapper implies that the USG does steal such secrets to provide the USG with insights about (among other things) emerging financial crises, “other countries’ economic policy or behavior which could affect global markets,” “economic systems and policies,” and “anomalous economic activities.” These are very broadly worded purposes. Given the USG’s broad economic interests, and the tight link between economics and national security, one can assume that NSA collection of commercial and economic information is very robust."

[gcomeau]

90. That statement contains nothing of the kind.

He specifically DENIED it was ever used for that purpose. The purposes his statement did say it was put to were:

1. Attempting to predict emerging financial crises
2. Attempting to anticipate impacts to global markets
3. Attempts to have insight into economic policies and systems being utilized by other nations
4. Attempts to identify anomalous economic activity (in case that's not clear, that's diplo-speak for "criminal / terrorist / etc... financial transactions"

All of which are LEGITIMATE reasons you conduct intelligence activities. Those are things the leader of a country wants to know when setting their own policy, and which it would be freaking stupid and irresponsible not to spend any time trying to find out.

They are not stealing the intellectual property of some Russian or Chinese or Iranian IT company to do something with it to make their stock drop 10 points or something.

[Vattel]

91. They are using espionage for economic advantage. That is economic espionage.

[gcomeau]

94. They specifically denied any use for economic advantage.

You don't get to point at that and say it's evidence they ARE using it for economic advantage.

[Vattel]

95. No, they didn't deny any use for economic advantage.

They denied providing US firms with information they have gained through their economic espionage. They admit to spying on private commercial entities (that have no link to terrorism) partly to gain information on global markets. Do you think the government would not use such information to promote US economic interests?

[cantbeserious]

43. Are You Seriously This Misguided To Believe Right Wing Talking Points

eom

[gcomeau]

64. Wow you're delusional.

That was the direct link to the article in the South China Morning Post that resulted from Snowden's interview with same talking about the information he provided to them about NSA activities in China, Captain Denial.


It is not a "right wing talking point", it is reality.

[cantbeserious]

66. Right Back To You - Enjoy The Propoganda

eom

[gcomeau]

67. WHAT FUCKING PROPAGANDA????

That is the PAPER IN QUESTION reporting what Snowden told THAT PAPER.


Are you suggesting they made the whole interview with Snowden up? And Snowden never bothered correcting them in the entire year plus since it was published and made global headlines?????


What color is the sky in the delusional little reality you've constructed for yourself?

[cantbeserious]

69. The Propaganda One Is Pushing

eom

[gcomeau]

72. Which "One"? Greenwald? Because you're ignoring he admitted this too. -eom

[cantbeserious]

74. Dream On

eom

[gcomeau]

75. I. Directly. Quoted. Him. Admitting. It.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5368445

You're the one dreaming. Or rather deliberately clamping your hands over your ears, squeezing your eyes shut, and singing "LALALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!!!!"


You're verging on outright trolling with these pathetic responses.

[cantbeserious]

82. Dream On

eom

[gcomeau]

84. Keep Trolling kid. -eom

[cantbeserious]

85. Dream On - Kid

eom

[woo me with science]

12. +100000

[randome]

14. So morality is predicated on what you personally like or don't like?

Snowden did not want to be a whistleblower. He wanted to be a superhero.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]

[Pholus]

54. You say that like its a bad thing.

Better than General Alexander, who wants to be a starship commander!

The jokes, they write themselves!

[lumpy]

18. He purloined that info; we don't know what else is contained in those other documents he stole.

Stuff that might be dangerous to this nation if it should fall into the hands of people who would love to do us harm.

[cantbeserious]

21. What About The Harm Those Papers Are Doing To American Citizens Daily

eom

[PoliticAverse]

4. Like the guy who got a copy of the Pentagon Papers and broadcast it to the world? n/t

[gcomeau]

7. Sigh...

The Pentagon papers exposed significant misconduct. And that's all Ellsworth leaked. He didn't also decide to throw in, say, a description of the technical capabilities of the latest air superiority fighter in and give it to a newspaper in Russia just for the hell of it!



Telling the planet about the means by which the NSA penetrates Chinese networks on the other hand (for example) does NOT expose any illegalities... nor does it serve any other overriding purpose of preventing tyranny or protecting Americans constitutional rights or any other bullshit excuse I've seen thrown around trying to justify it. That was a betrayal and nothing else.


In short... Snowden did not limit himself to whistleblowing.

[Vattel]

41. Exposing economic espionage by the USA was whistleblowing.

[gcomeau]

78. Except he did no such thing... -eom

[Scootaloo]

51. But that was different! A Republican was in office!

Had Snowden done what he did in 2007, all his critics here would hail him as a holy man. Every. Last. One of them.

[lumpy]

15. Good point

[sabrina 1]

36. Are you aware that this administration has prosecuted more Whistle Blowers than

even Bush did?

So no, it isn't just a 'Snowden' reference, it is a Whistle Blower reference. One of the worst records in terms of protecting Whistle Blowers in my memory. Which is why that statement is blowing people's minds.

[Cha]

39. Exactly, Snowden's wasn't a whistleblower..

snip//

"..But as time goes on, Snowden's leaks have increasingly related to international spying and other legitimate actions of the U.S. government, which he has neither legal nor moral justification for exposing.

Snowden's leaks include outing NSA foreign surveillance targets to the Brazilian government, the German government, the U.N., and even the Chinese government. Just this week reports came out that the NSA had targeted Indian diplomats for spying at their Embassy in D.C. and in New York City.

Even Glenn Greenwald, the journalist who broke the Snowden saga, said that he would not have published those Chinese addresses.

"What motivated that leak though was a need to ingratiate himself to the people of Hong Kong and China,” Greenwald told The Daily Beast.

Snowden, caught in Moscow and looking for asylum countries, would presumably have felt the need to "ingratiate" himself by feeding information to Moscow as well. While some may call it "pure speculation" that Russia and China in some way got information from Snowden, still others take it as a matter of common sense.

Following the China disclosures, Snowden "lost of all his standing to be considered a whistleblower," Joshua Foust, former intelligence analyst turned freelance reporter, told Business Insider. "It’s silly to pretend like they’re not ... rival government[s]. Massive amounts of government and corporate breaches come from Russia and China, on incredibly sensitive targets."

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/edward-snowden-is-not-a-whistleblower-2013-9#ixzz39kGGXK42



More Snowden leaks - and this time Al Qaeda is the surveillance target (+video)

".. But what caught my eye in one of the unredacted slides was the mention of Al Qaeda in Iraq being a particular target of the NSA's efforts. The slide reads: "Visual Communicator – Free application that combines Instant Messaging, Photo-Messaging, and Push2Talk capabilities on a mobile platform. VC used on GPRS or 3G networks." The next five words were what the Times tried and failed to redact: "heavily used in AQI Mosul Network."

The aim as described in the documents is to target mobile phone apps that can give away a target's physical location. The utility of this in tracking terrorists hardly needs to be stated. The document describes a program focusing on clear security interests – Al Qaeda in Iraq, now calling itself Al Qaeda in Iraq and the Levant (ISIS) – killed thousands in Iraq during the US-led war there and continues to carry out suicide bombings and attacks on civilians there on a weekly basis. ISIS is also deeply involved in the civil war in Syria, and the groups ties to Al Qaeda make it an obvious security concern for the US.."

snip//

"..But his claim that "none of this has anything to do with terrorism" is not reasonable. That's pure nonsense -- as is his attempt to suggest that any revelations of eavesdropping techniques can't do any harm because terrorists already know all about it. Terrorists may know that the US is trying to spy on them as best it can (just as Germany and France know that). But knowing the precise method is another thing altogether."

MOre..
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Security-Watch/Backchannels/2014/0130/More-Snowden-leaks-and-this-time-Al-Qaeda-is-the-surveillance-target-video

[BillZBubb]

2. Seems to be a big inconsistency there...

[cantbeserious]

5. But, But - He Labeled Snowden A Traitor - Can't Have It Both Ways Mr. President

eom

[gcomeau]

9. Yes he can. Not every release of classified info is "whistleblowing". -eom

[cantbeserious]

11. Many Disagree With That Perspective

eom

[msanthrope]

13. Many lack the ability to see the difference. nt

[lumpy]

16. That appears to be the truth

[cantbeserious]

19. Many Are Myopically In Love With The President

eom

[woo me with science]

23. Corruption and shameless propaganda go hand in hand. nt

[cantbeserious]

24. Too True - The Myopic President Lovers - Forever In The Dark

eom

[gcomeau]

30. And THE LAW disagrees with them. So... -eom

[cantbeserious]

32. Hmm ... Just Like The Laws Broken Desecrating The 4th Amendment

eom

[gcomeau]

34. Which doesn't have one damn thing to do...

...with things like intelligence activities directed against China.

[cantbeserious]

42. No Proof Snowden Leaked Anything To China - Right Wing Talking Point

eom

[gcomeau]

68. You live in your own little fantasy world.

Even GREENWALD admitted Snowden leaked to the Chinese.

"Greenwald said he would not have published some of the stories that ran in the South China Morning Post. “Whether I would have disclosed the specific IP addresses in China and Hong Kong the NSA is hacking, I don’t think I would have,” Greenwald said. “What motivated that leak though was a need to ingratiate himself to the people of Hong Kong and China.”

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/25/greenwald-snowden-s-files-are-out-there-if-anything-happens-to-him.html


Deal. With. Reality. Snowden gave up classified data to the Chinese to get on their good side. Even Greenwald knows it.



(And if you think he hasn't done the same thing with Russia you're delusional.)

[cantbeserious]

70. Enjoy Your Fantasies

eom

[gcomeau]

71. You mean Greenwald's fantasies? Is he a right wing propagandist also??? -eom

[cantbeserious]

73. Dream On

eom

[gcomeau]

76. Pathetic.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5369502

[cantbeserious]

83. Dream On

eom

[sabrina 1]

37. Chelsea Manning too, stated that he 'broke the law' before he even had a trial.

Drake also, the list is long. So yes, this statement IS mind blowing. I haven't read what it is in reference to, but sometimes these days I think I am in some kind of fantasy movie where the world turned upside down.

[gratuitous]

17. They're protecting the hell out of Chelsea Manning

Not to mention John Kiriakou.

[woo me with science]

22. Lies upon lies upon lies.

A pattern of election year speeches brazenly misrepresenting his administration's own behavior.

Weeks ago: that heavily publicized speech about reining in military involvement...followed immediately by escalations and funding of the Gaza horror.

Yesterday: the shameless claim to support net neutrality, when his own appointees are enabling corporate takeover of the internet.

And now this obscene lie, when we have all witnessed this administration's treatment of Chelsea Manning and Edward Snowden, and the systematic crackdown on whistleblowing in the federal government.

War is Peace.
Freedom is Slavery.
Ignorance is Strength.
Torturers are Patriots.

We all live in Oceania now.

[elias49]

25. Yup. n/t

[cantbeserious]

26. Duplicity - Thy Name Was Republican - Now Democrat

eom

[woo me with science]

28. +1 As long as we had an opposition party, we had some hope of holding off the worst.

Now the predators, and the liars, live in both parties.

[KoKo]

97. +1...

does look that way these days.

[BrotherIvan]

31. And so-called "Democrats" defend it

I guess we're supposed to love being lied to. We'll help in Iraq but send more money to support killing in Israel? We'll support torturers and call them patriots? But whistle blowers like Chelsea Manning "broke the law." You have to do a lot of yoga to get into those twisted positions.

[sabrina 1]

38. We sure are getting a rude awakening. Maybe it's an experiment to see how much

we will take, how far they need to go before 'loyal' followers' finally join the reality based community and give up trying to excuse and defend it all. So far, it looks like there is no limit to how far they can go for some.

[BrotherIvan]

46. The final straw was the torture apologia

Agreeing that torture was necessary. Bringing out the tired excuse that Congress wouldn't let him, though Congress doesn't have a damn thing to do with it. Excuses for every inaction, but cheers for every small deed. Every speech makes them proud whether it's true or not. We must all swoon as they do or we're racist haters and fringe left. And now we have war apologia on the greatest page.

[sabrina 1]

47. That and the 100% Senate vote in favor of Israel's brutal attacks on Gaza.

If Bush was in office things on this forum would be, WERE very different. I thought it was all about principles. I feel like a fool, frankly.

[BrotherIvan]

49. I don't understand it all

It hurts my head.

[sendero]

57. Exactly..

... Obama is JUST LIKE BUSH in that he says one thing and does the opposite routinely.

I'm pretty sure the top end political brass have figure out that it works for more people than it doesn't, so why the hell not?

[L0oniX]

92. ^^^this^^^

[rock]

27. Nobody ever accused a politician of not knowing what to SAY

They all know the difference between right and wrong and can articulate it. Even the GOP looks at you glassy eyed and says they're not prejudiced against the blacks.

[Ichingcarpenter]

44. Notice HE HASN'T THANKED OR PROTECTED ANY WHISTLEBLOWERS?

Or acknowledged one in the many years of his administration.?

[BrotherIvan]

45. About right

[woo me with science]

48. ^^^^^^^ MOST IMPORTANT POST IN THE THREAD ^^^^^^^

[m-lekktor]

60. perfect meme. nt

[markpkessinger]

50. Talk is cheap n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

52. Hypocrisy is just another name for political expediency.

[Autumn]

53. Another case of watch what I do because it sure as fuck doesn't match what I say.

Does he think no one pays attention?

[woo me with science]

55. They are coming fast and furious now,

and he will never be confronted about these lies by our media.

It's absolutely surreal, to watch Orwellification of America.

[PowerToThePeople]

56. I heard a similar pitch from someone at "clunkers r us." n/t

[woo me with science]

58. K&R for the lies.

[Thinkingabout]

59. There is a Whistleblower Act which protects whistleblowers and a

Whistleblower in the Veterans Administration is protected, so what is the big deal.

[woo me with science]

61. Kick. Expose the lies.

[99Forever]

62. Sometimes you gotta say it like it is.

What a freaking lying liar.

[woo me with science]

63. [phone]

[Tarheel_Dem]

77. HP: "Edward Snowden In 2009: Leakers Should Be 'Shot In The Balls'

NSA leaker Edward Snowden despised classified leaks in 2009, illustrating that the former Booz Allen Hamilton employee was not always the champion of transparency that he has become.

The technology website ArsTechnica published IRC chats where he railed against a New York Times story about the U.S. rejecting an Israeli request for aid to attack an Iranian nuclear site and the United States' covert efforts to sabotage Iran's nuclear program.

"Are they TRYING to start a war? Jesus christ. they're like wikileaks," he said in the chat.

"they're just reporting, dude," said another user.

"moreover, who the fuck are the anonymous sources telling them this?" he said. "those people should be shot in the balls."


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/26/edward-snowden-leakers_n_3504746.html

I guess, unlike you, more evolved people can change their minds, when circumstances change?

[Marr]

89. You're saying the President no longer accepts the position cited in the OP? /nt

[Tarheel_Dem]

79. I'm sure some of you are consumed with this, but it don't put food on the table, and the American...

people just don't give a shit. Good luck making this an issue that anyone, outside the CT sphere, cares about as a priority. Maybe The Intercept?

[L0oniX]

93. He speaks so well that even the lies sound good.

If fact, speaking is about the only thing he is good at IMO.

[KoKo]

96. I hate to say this....but...i

If Congress had given the money to Former Veterans Affairs secretary Erik Shinseki maybe they could have increased staff...but now they install a P&G Chief...and figure he will do the job. But once a Corporate CEO gets the job...the big bucks follow.

from the article:

The Senate last month unanimously confirmed former Procter and Gamble chief Robert McDonald as VA secretary.