General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsNBC: 'Streamers': Birds Fried in Midair by Solar Plant, Feds Say
Complete article at: http://www.nbcnews.com/science/environment/streamers-birds-fried-midair-solar-plant-feds-say-n183336
Politicalboi
(15,189 posts)I hope they can work a better way. Maybe a sound that makes birds not fly over. How many just escape the burn out only to die a few minutes later.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)should end solar power plants?
Like the fourth repost by recently signed up members.....they are afraid of the truth...the Sun is power unlimited, the end of fossil fuels is just around the corner.
eShirl
(18,503 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)information drive by information takers will not see it that way I see.
JaneyVee
(19,877 posts)deathrind
(1,786 posts)Having said that this is still the lessor of two evils. The continued use of fossil fuels which is contributing to the death of birth for a countless number of species that live on both land and in water needs to be reduced to the point of zero sooner rather then later.
msongs
(67,441 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Finding a way so people do not is now a prime directive.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)one "streamer" every two minutes
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)1. Putting the light through any glass at all would greatly increase losses over reflection from front surface mirrors, not to mention the heat in the "prisms." The most effective design is one bounce off a mirror, directly onto the collector.
2. The mirrors alone are over 600 acres. There space between the heliostats. Excavating a thousand acre site to place the beams at ground level would be an enormous project, and cause the heliostats on the side towards the sun to shade a portion of the array for part of the day.
That said, they need to find a way to deter birds from flying through beams.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)It's a steam driven turbine.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Almost of the mirrors at some point during the day are going to be tilted at an angle high enough that would cause anything to slide off.
The mirrors at the site total hundreds of acres (over 600). The number of birds it would take to measurably affect output would be astronomical, if they did "stick". There's regular maintenance to clean the mirrors, dust is likely a much bigger concern.
If there were to be a sandstorm, they would turn the heliostat mirrors away from the wind.
Not sure how it being a steam driven turbine is even relevant to anything.
Your subject line "points", which are mostly not true, are not relevant to what I posted.
Don't get me wrong, they need to find a way to divert the birds.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Its along a water to water flyway & the mirrors also look like water.
I'd like to see this adapted for personal use, along with roll out, light weight solar mats.
If the roasted birds slide off the 600 acres of mirrors, then the Corp should allow a count of birds on the ground. At night of course. I guess the 'workers' work at night cleaning their acres of mirrors. I bet the desert snakes love it under the shade of those mirrors.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)I get it, you hate the concept. Doesn't make much of anything you said true and it's mostly irrelevant to what I have said.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Do think the footprint of acres of mirrors super heating the air and covering the ground creates quite a bit of collateral damage.
we haven't even mentioned how many snakes, desert critters become trapped in the gear wells under the mirrors. Or the glare towards planes. problems with grit, sand etching glass and damaging machinery, computers, the health concerns, safety hazards for of any 'workers'. Who are the workers? locals or a prison leased work crew?
The article also mentioned piping 1000 degree steam to oil wells. Any wildlife, humans, ground microbiology exposed to that steam, the heated pipes could be injured/wiped out also.
You're incorrect, I don't 'hate' the concept.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)You keep coming up with strawman arguments against the plant. (Prison leased work crew? Really? Seriously?)
You argue for happy, shiny, distributed, localized use of the technology. While pleasantly ignoring all your own arguments. Yes, let's put hundreds of thousands of mirrors, all over the landscape, blinding pilots left and right. Let's put them where people live (with all the problems you've made up, plus the fact that people do not live in the desert, where there is much more sunlight). Let's distribute the maintenance over thousands of miles.
You don't think the designers of the heliostat equipment even considered covering the machinery? Do you believe that workers are going to take sand inside the control building and pour it into the computers?
How are exactly are heated pipes going to be injured?
The plant was designed to work in the desert. It's the way it is because that was the best way that very smart people could come up with. Which is what I have been saying from the start. I don't know why I'm bothering to respond to these inane questions you keep coming up with. So I think I'll just note that the people that designed it know a lot more about it than either you or I, and that they need to find a way to reduce/eliminate it's impact to wildlife.
It should be compared, not to a shiny fantasy backyard system, but to an energy plant of equal output, using fossil fuels, nuclear, wind or water in terms of its impact on the environment.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)This facility has only been up working from February. They want to build another, much larger. Why don't they allow people in to pick up the dead birds and do an actual count? quite a bit of difference between one every 2 minutes and 1,000. How does the Corp. know its 1,000?
They mention 'jobs' in their lovely video , my question about how many local jobs and are those 'jobs'(mentioned in the corps video) a prison leased work crews (or foreign visa work crew)
I don't accept any Corporations 'word' without question.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)You have been raising stupid question after stupid question with me. Most of them bear tenuous, if any, bearing to reality.
Please, feel free to take your questions back to the OP, just stop asking them of me.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)It's ok to say you don't know or just don't answer. People that question science often go down blind alleys and discover new things.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)I get annoyed at stupid, lazy questions. Questions that an ounce of research or thinking would answer. Unhonest questions that are purposed towards casting a negative light on a subject. Questions that are then purposefully ignored when proposing a different tack.
The reason I've been answering is that I do know the answers to your questions. Anyone who paid attention to even a high school physics course knows the answers to your questions.
You have done nothing but come up with ridiculous question after ridiculous question. You have ignored all my questions. Pretty much puts you squarely under a bridge. Please go troll someone else. Have a pleasant day.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Ways with less of a land footprint & less collateral damage?
what about lightning bolts, (not to gather the electricity) bolts superheat the air around each strike. or lava? or a garbage dump with plasma gasification, the gas produced from vaporizing garbage, heats the water.
Plasma gasification, all a cities garbage in and electricity out. wouldn't even need a steam engine to turn turbines.
Alright, I'll leave you alone with your miles of mirrors. Have a good day!
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)bird deaths, it is being investigated.
To tie the problem to approval of other solar plants....that is the intended purpose.
Remember when the auto industry almost was shut down because autos killed a lot of.....humans?
Me neither.
Algernon Moncrieff
(5,790 posts)I'd like to think NBC hasn't sunk to straight shilling a la FAUX, but perhaps I'm naive. That said, let's say the story is true at face value: my takeaway would be that it's a design flaw that can likely be addressed with noisemakers, giant animatronic gargoyles, or something similar. Wind and solar still don't have greenhouse gas issues, and as pointed out elsewhere in the thread -- tarsands tailings can kill some wildlife as well.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)And, really, these can only be tested on a full-scale operational level, there's no other way.
To suggest that we shut them down while studying the problem is batshit crazy.
We need small and large scale wind and solar, and energy storage strategies, like right away.
eShirl
(18,503 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)eShirl
(18,503 posts)eShirl
(18,503 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Shankapotomus
(4,840 posts)Enclose the entire plant in a giant semi-spherical green house.
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Sounds... Large... and window washing is going to be a huge pain in the ass.
krispos42
(49,445 posts)Obviously, the light from one mirror wouldn't be enough to ignite a bird in mid-flight. It would have to be near the central collector, where dozens of beams are focused. And if there is any curvature to the mirrors, that would be the focal point for them as well on an individual basis.
That area can't be too big...
daleo
(21,317 posts)As do buildings and electricity lines.
Oil sans tailing ponds kill plenty of birds as well.
Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)Generic Brad
(14,275 posts)This could be the start of an interesting franchise.
Is it possible for those things to get airborne if their bones are removed?
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Borrow "Iron Dome" technology, scale it down, hit the incoming birds with a spray of batter and voila!!
burrowowl
(17,645 posts)B Calm
(28,762 posts)Generic Other
(28,979 posts)Nuclear kills everyone. Wind turbines decapitate anything that sticks its head in their way. Birds, animals, children. Every solution creates new problems.