There appears to be a damning detail in the autopsy report that has not been getting much attention

[Bjorn Against]

Baden had other details: Brown was shot four times in the right arm and twice in the head. The shots seemed to have come from the front, except for one that had entered his body through the top of his head, as if he had been leaning forward. There were also reëntry wounds. The other bullet to his head hit him in the right eye and, according to the Times, “traveled through his face, exited his jaw and re-entered his collarbone.”

http://www.newyorker.com/news/amy-davidson/michael-browns-body

This appears to me to be a damning piece of evidence. Michael Brown was taller than Darren Wilson so if they were both in standing positions it does not seem possible that Wilson could shoot at such an angle in which the bullet would travel from the eye down to the collarbone unless he held the gun in an extremely awkward position. If the bullet travelled in a downward fashion that would seem to suggest that Brown was not in a standing position when it was fired, and if he was not standing then I don't know how this can be called anything other than an execution.

[AzDar]

1. K & R

[pnwmom]

2. The police claim seems to be that he was in a head-down, charging bull kind of position.

As unlikely as that appears.

And even the private pathologist hired by the family said that was a possibility. He says the information about whether gunshot residue is on his clothing will be critical.

[elehhhhna]

3. there was no residue on his HEAD

so couldn't be that close...

[pnwmom]

4. Excellent point!

[Ms. Toad]

13. Charging doesn't necessarily mean charging at close range. n/t

[elehhhhna]

16. he was "charging" after the cop shot his fucking eye out? Really?

two head shots : face and top of head

think on it

[Ms. Toad]

19. Hmm...someone beginning a charge

in the process of putting his head down is hit in the eye and, in rapid succession, is hit on the top of the head.

If you have a problem with one of the two scenarios, generally, take it up with the doctor the family retained to do the autopsy. That was his suggestion, not mine.

As to the specific post you responded to, I was merely clarifying that charging (the words used by the poster you were responding to) does no imply the shot was at close range - so the lack of residue (which you suggested ruled out charging) is completely irrelevant to answering the question of whether he was charging or not.

[aggiesal]

46. Could it be that ...

he was kneeling and giving himself up
after bring shot multiple times?

Then after being hit in the eye, he could have had his
head down in his hands, when he got hit in the head.

Just a theory.

[Jack Rabbit]

48. Sounds like Steven Biko's suicide in a South African jail during the Apartheid regime

The police inquest ruled that Mr. Biko, a well-known leader in the anti-Apartheid movement, continued to beat his head against a concrete wall after he was already unconscious.

[moondust]

21. So first he ran away from the police car...

and then for some reason changed his mind, turned around, and from some distance started charging--head pointed face down--toward a police officer who was shooting at him?

Doesn't make sense.

[cheapdate]

27. My thoughts are this...

Brown was already shot when he was moving from the car. How badly he was injured, I don't know. But if he was very badly injured, the fact that he stopped and turned around might not mean anything. He may have been dying already, or on the verge of losing consciousness. We just don't know.

[Ms. Toad]

28. Try a little reading comprehension.

Paraphrasing:

pnwmom recited an allegation that Mr. Brown was in a charging position,
elehhhhna said no, that's impossible, because there was no residue.
I said, charging doesn't necessarily mean close range - so residue is irrelevant.

My response was solely directed to whether the lack of residue had ANY relevance to whether he was charging. Hint: It has no relevance. Charging can be from nearby or far away. Residue, or lack thereof, says nothing about whether he was charging.

If you have a problem with the suggestion that

"This one here looks like his head was bent downward,” he said, indicating the wound at the very top of Mr. Brown’s head. “It can be because he’s giving up, or because he’s charging forward at the officer.”

you should take it up with the physician the family hired to do the autopsy. I wasn't speculating one way or another about whether he was charging or not.

[moondust]

30. And my response

was not directed at you but at the suggestion that Mr. Brown was charging at the officer after the incident started with him right next to or partially inside the vehicle.

Defensive much?

[Ms. Toad]

34. Then why did you respond to me, and not to that post?

When someone replies to my post, the most logical explanation is that they are addressing their comments to me.

Perhaps you slipped and hit reply to the wrong post, but yours was the second response to my post which went off on the same tangent, which had nothing to do with what I said.

[rhett o rick]

56. The doctor was out of line suggesting that the shot in the top of the head could have

occurred because Michael Brown "was charging at the officer." When a human charges he does it with his head up and not on all fours.

[Ms. Toad]

58. Who said anything about being on all fours?

I have certainly not seen that suggestion attributed to the doctor.

I don't know what happened - but the doctor retained by the family identified two scenarios, one of which was charging, the other was giving up. Given his years of experience, I expect he has enough forensic knowledge to assess that both are realistic possibilities before he opened his mouth, knowing the whole world was watching. And, I'm pretty sure he has two advantages over you - around 5 decades of forensic experience, and he actually examined the body.

And you might want to think about whether humans always charge with their heads down. Ever watched a football game?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

50. True. Which is why CHARGING the cop with murder fits.

[nomorenomore08]

33. And of course, why the hell would he do such a thing? You'd think he'd know it was suicidal. n/t

[pnwmom]

35. He was obviously just bent over in pain. Anyone not an idiot knows that. n/t

[nomorenomore08]

36. Exactly my point. We're on the same page here.

[BlueCaliDem]

55. Exactly! The naysayers don't seem to want to take that very real possibility into their

thinking processes.

But then again, if you're out to make unarmed eighteen-year-young Mike Brown as the aggressor (and therefore, the cop was justified in executing him), then details such as real human pain and suffering after being shot won't fit the narrative, would it?

[think_in_code]

41. That theory doesn't even make sense

What sane person who is not on drugs would put their head down and charge at somebody that is shooting at them like a bull as they are being struck by bullets? Makes no sense whatsoever.

[pnwmom]

59. Welcome to DU, think_in_code!

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

42. Even if he was,

don't police still have billy clubs? This 'shoot first ask questions later' especially in minority communities has got to stop........

[pnwmom]

49. And tasers. That's what they're supposed to be for. n/t

[Scootaloo]

57. So, if i understand hte police's position right...

Brown wrestled with the officer, to try to steal his gun - because that's entirely logical - and then failing that... backed up, and tried to ram the officer like a goat.

I've seen hog lagoons that aren't so full of shit, and that stank less than this story.

[elleng]

5. The assistant to Dr/Mr Baden discussed the path of the bullet

on Lawrence show (I think) last night, interesting and complex.

[LiberalElite]

6. this story in cnn

says the bullet didn't enter through his eye, it came out through it (?)

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/18/us/missouri-teen-shooting/index.html

[Ms. Toad]

14. I saw that - but it doesn't make any sense,

given the rest of the trajectory. How does a bullet exiting the eye return in the trunk/collarbone area?

[LiberalElite]

15. I don't know - nt

[elehhhhna]

17. if his chin's on his chest

[Ms. Toad]

20. This is from the initial press report

One of the bullets shattered Mr. Brown’s right eye, traveled through his face, exited his jaw and re-entered his collarbone. The last two shots in the head would have stopped him in his tracks and were likely the last fired.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/18/us/michael-brown-autopsy-shows-he-was-shot-at-least-6-times.html?_r=0

Just having a hard time reconciling the description on CNN (exiting through the eye) with the initial description above.

[csziggy]

18. One shot went in through the left eye, exited the jaw and entered at the collarbone

Another, the fatal shot, went in the top of his head and out the right eye.

Here is the pathologist who assisted in the autopsy on the Lawrence O'Donnell Show last night:
http://www.msnbc.com/the-last-word-with-lawrence-odonnell/watch/brown-autopsy-assistant-discusses-results-319366723799

[Ms. Toad]

25. Thanks for that link -

That's the most thorough discussion I've seen.

[Louisiana1976]

7. Excellent post. K&R

[bettyellen]

9. when he went into detail about the lower arm graze and thumb, he said they were consistent with

hands up if face forward or arms down while running away.

[Depaysement]

10. Good catch

The lack of of reside on the bare part of his right arm is also telling.

[deafskeptic]

11. I thought the previous pathologist washed his body before the current one saw it? n/t

[mythology]

12. That's not how bullets work once they hit human tissue

http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/parts/best-place-to-get-shot1.htm

http://apps.americanbar.org/abastore/products/books/abstracts/5450051chap1_abs.pdf

Bullets bounce around once they hit things like bones.

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. mythology is right here: the path of a bullet once it hits is not a good index of trajectory

prior to impact. Bullets can follow a single trajectory that index their pre-impact trajectory pretty well, or they can bounce, break up, change direction, and do other weird things once they hit bone and tissue.

[niyad]

23. k and r and thank you for that catch!

[jberryhill]

24. Is there a nearby grassy knoll?

[Travis_0004]

26. or he was falling to the ground from other gun shots

[jtuck004]

29. Which would be consistent with the story that he had charged the officer.

The momentum of a charging 292 lb man would carry him forward like that.

And that matches the officer's apparent story. (most of this I take with a large dose of salt until the emotions can be dr-emphsized a little.)

On the other hand, the racism in Ferguson exists, and regardless of this will continue until something changes.

[kelliekat44]

31. Charged the officer sitting in the SUV, charged the officer from 30 feet? I just wish someone is

secretly holding onto a revealing phone video that will soon be shown so that all the speculation can stop and the truth be known.

[jtuck004]

62. There was a report that the officer's story is that while wrestling in the car he fired

a shot, and the person backed away. He came out of his car with his gun pointed, and the person hesitated, then charged him, and he started firing until he went down.

I know what you mean, but I honestly think that they could have had 6 cameras set up all around this and it may not have made any difference just by giving us that picture.

Because beyond his death is the tragedy brought to light of how the people of an entire part of this city are being treated, and, frankly, I am hard-pressed to see where that is going to change other than superficially, if that. And given the number of black folk arrested in that town in the past, with a record, the ones arrested during this incident may well serve years after this.

There is so much ongoing tragedy here it is almost incomprehensible.

[Thor_MN]

37. Getting shot in the head while standing still would likely result in a person falling on their face.

The Hollywood "getting thrown backwards through the air" doesn't happen in real life. In the movies, they attach a cable to a harness and jerk the person backwards with the cable. The cable is then erased in post.

In real life, the impact that causes a small entry wound often is vastly overwhelmed by the thrust caused by things leaving a large exit wound. The bullet pressurizes the body cavity, the pressure leaves through the easiest route, usually the exit wound.

[jtuck004]

61. After the first couple of years of being a medic, I pretty well know what bullets do.

Along with other experiences I "experienced" gunshots and sometimes had a hand in the results. Not tv. If a person is just standing with no particular balance and takes a close range shot in the face with a .45 they would likely land on their back. If a 9mm or .38, they could go either way - but that wasn't the first shot, it was the last, according to "reports". And there are a lot of other factors as well, along with his mass. And, given that some departments have grenade launchers, assuming we know what they are carrying is problematic. Along with a lot of other assumptions these days.

Regardless, my point was is that the "officer's account" (which I still take with a grain of salt since this is all a media circus, though I saw it first on CNN) said that after they wrestled at the car he got out with the gun pointed, but did not shoot until he was charged.

And the simple explanation is that as this 292 lb person came at the officer he started firing. When people charge you they put their heads down, and this would explain that pattern quite well, as they go down in front of you.

If a person was just been standing there and the pattern marched up the arm and into his head like the pictures I have seen (Which I only half believe anyway), when the bullet hit their arm they would most likely have been spun around at least a little (arms do that as they fling away from the body, heads don't), even from a 9. And once that started the pattern would have moved to the right, not up.

Otherwise they would have to stand there and let you shoot them while they quietly died and fell forward into the gunfire. But given that he was 292 lbs, that isn't impossible. Just unlikely, I think, and more something I would expect from television.

Still, it's all idle speculation until someone is asked an official question or swears to tell the truth. And given the past, and how things are at present, I don't see a good outcome regardless of how bullets fly or what they do.

So we will see.

[Thor_MN]

66. The officer's story is more complicated than the witness's...

A standing person shot such that the brain is destroyed is going to simply drop, they are not going fall in any particular direction due to impact of the bullet. But that is not what happened, as Brown was hit, and reacting to being hit, five times before the fatal shot.

The total force of the impact is less than that of of the kickback - physics. The damage a bullet causes comes from placing a portion of that force on a small area in a short, instead of being distributed over the area of firearm handle and extended in time as the bullet is accelerated. If the bullet goes through, it does not even impart all the force of the kickback.

"And the simple explanation is that as this 292 lb person came at the officer he started firing. When people charge you they put their heads down, and this would explain that pattern quite well, as they go down in front of you. "

That "simple explanation" does not explain the pattern of wounds even remotely... Have you ever seen someone charge forward with their head down and yet have the inside of their arms faced forward? How does one present the inside of their arms, while running, to attack, such that their right arm is hit 4 times? Extremely unlikely that Brown was running, just based on the arm wounds.

Falling down, after having had a bullet go through your eye is another reason one's head would be lowered. As is trying to seek cover as you are having a handgun emptied at you, which would put one's balance forward. If Brown had been charging, head down, the shot to the right eye would have been impossible, unless he was bobbing his head up and down through 90 degrees of rotation as he ran.

A sprinter will lower their head as they start to run as they have no need to see where they are going. A person with the intent to attack someone will sacrifice a bit of speed to keep an eye on their target. They will run with their head up, and the outside of their arms forward. Presenting the inside of one's arms is a surrender posture, not an attack posture.

I personally don't find the officer's account credible, Brown would have had to have been further away than the 30+ feet where he fell when he started his "charge", add in reaction time to determine the "threat" and time to empty the gun as he continued to "charge" - that should have left distinctive evidence of the distance traveled from first shot to the last. To have caused the pattern of wounds shown in the initial autopsy diagrams to a "charging" person is so fantastically unlikely that I think Wilson will be found guilty if he is tried and sticks with his reported story.

But it doesn't matter what I think. You are correct, this is all idle speculation, but the crime scene photos should contain the truth, right now, of whether Brown was standing or charging as he was killed.

[4b5f940728b232b034e4]

52. No

The bullets would have thrown him backwards.

[Travis_0004]

53. no.

A bullet does not have much force. Especially for a fat guy who weighs 300 lbs

[4b5f940728b232b034e4]

54. Fat?

Are we talking about the same victim?

[valerief]

32. That's why it's been suggested Brown could have been bent over and attempting

to ram him. That would make him shorter. I'll bet the defense claims he was rammed.

[Trust Buster]

38. The shot to the shoulder could have leaned him forward.

[2naSalit]

39. No residue on his head

...wasn't he wearing a hat? What's on the hat?

[kentuck]

40. The only thing he was "ramming" was the pavement...

...as he was falling on his face after being shot multiple times.

[Quayblue]

43. I'm curious to know the order of the bullet entries

[cleduc]

44. I continue to have the same problem with it

I posted this in the first autopsy thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5407236

Two head shots that seem to come roughly from the top of the head downward on a very big man ...

If he's down on his knees, it's not so hard to imagine.

If he's running towards Wilson as Wilson is alleged to have claimed:

The eye socket shot going down through his jaw - that one might have deflected at quite an angle from the edge of his eye socket but it's hard for me to imagine a 90 degree ricochet when they're usually less than 15-30 degrees. His head probably had to be tilted downwards quite a bit.

The one in the top of the skull was found in his skull. That one strikes me as coming at an angle roughly close to perpendicular to the top of his head. Bullets can bounce off bone. It's coming from a pistol - not a high powered rifle - so it's max speed is about half the velocity of a rifle - which means it can't penetrate skull bone as easily at a glancing angle.

That suggests he'd have to be coming at Wilson like a bull or maybe a linebacker getting ready to tackle. And he's running into a steady spray of bullets - a number that are hitting him before these ones kill him. Maybe it was the last shot as he was going down ...

I suppose life is stranger than fiction but running towards an officer blasting away is a pretty friggin' crazy thing to expect.

Having said that, it's very premature. We have to wait for the full autopsy combined with ballistics before one can conclude much on bullet trajectory. But from what I've seen so far, I have real reservations about Wilson's account jiving with the autopsy.

[Shemp Howard]

45. It doesn't matter!!!

Shot on the top of the head. Shot on the front of the head. Powder burns. No powder burns. It doesn't matter.

What matters is that the cop used lethal force against an unarmed person who was not, at that moment, grappling with him.

Think for a moment about a riot (not a protest, but a violent riot). Let's suppose the rioters charge the police. Do the police shoot down the rioters? No!

The police use non-lethal weapons. And the police retreat if necessary until more force arrives. But this cop did not use non-lethal weapons (taser, pepper spray, a baton). And he did not retreat until backup arrived. He fired six bullets instead.

[cleduc]

51. I'm playing around with it because I'm pretty sure

that's where they're going with it. They don't have much choice as it's the only defense one can make to try to get Wilson off a criminal charge. So I'm tinkering with how to beat them at their own game.

To extend your thought, aren't police officers supposed to tamp these situations down? The John Wayne bar room brawl is supposed to be the last resort, isn't it? But this guy ramped up and did the kid in very quickly. He could not possibly have handled it well for it to get that ugly so quickly. He screwed up on that basis alone.

As well, and I haven't seen this raised, what is this guy doing blazing away on a residential street? What if one of those bullets (he missed several shots) hit a little kid on a bike or in a baby carriage or somebody's grandma or mother and killed them? What would he say "Well, at least I recovered a few bucks worth of cigarillos?" That's nuts.

Along that reasoning, is Mike Brown's life worth less than $50 worth of cigarillos? Wouldn't a good cop reason once the kid was running away as he raised his pistol "Hey, this isn't worth it. Let the kid go and maybe we'll catch up with him later when he's cooled down."

If Mike had gone after his gun and wasted him, was the cops life worth less than $50 worth of cigarillos?

No matter what defense they come up with, some of that cop's thinking is indefensible for the greater good and safety of the public he's supposed to protect. Ignoring what happened to Mike Brown for a moment (and I don't mean to belittle his horrific loss because that's what a big bunch of this is about), even if one were to accept everything they've said to date in the cop's defense, this whole thing was pretty over the top crazy behavior by that cop. It was stupid, reckless and senseless.

[F4lconF16]

60. Please make this an OP. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

65. Along with several of my neighbors, I witnessed the police shooting death of a woman armed with

a very tiny pocket knife, on a residential street in a high population density area. They shot her 7 times, fired many more times. Multiple officers discharged weapons, and they were configured in a rather circular fashion, so there were in fact two by standers hit.
I was standing next to a young woman sitting on the curb. When an officer passed us she said 'Officer, help me I have been shot'. He said this: 'Shut up and wait your turn, someone will get to you.' This he said to a passerby who had been shot by his own people.
The woman they killed, she stole nothing. She was upset, loud and needed someone to talk her down, Her 'knife' was not something I'd count as a weapon, it was small. The surrounded her and opened fire.
'Shut up and wait your turn'.

I really don't know how any of you can think this is new, unique, or geographically isolated police behavior.

[longship]

47. A lot of armchair forensic pathology in this thread.

I doubt that very many DUers have the expertise.

In other words, too much speculation here.

[freshwest]

64. It's been said that he was on his knees, thus protestors have done the same: