Q: Why Did an American Journalist Get His Head Cut Off?

[grahamhgreen]

A: Because GWB illegally invaded Iraq.

Q: Why did the Yazitees head up the mountain?

A: Because GWB illegally invaded Iraq.

Q: Why did ISIS come into being?

A: Because GWB illegally invaded Iraq.

ETC....

Can we please prosecute the people responsible for the situation in Iraq?


At least, that's how I see it

[randome]

1. Bullshit.

His head was cut off because ISIS is comprised of inhuman monsters. Some things in this world really are what they appear to be.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[PragmaticLiberal]

3. Exactly.

[grahamhgreen]

7. And why did those inhuman monsters come into being?

[PragmaticLiberal]

9. I know where you're going and you're right.

Still doesn't mean they aren't monsters who need to be dealt with.

[sammythecat]

136. I don't understand why or who you're arguing with

Nothing in the OP says or suggests they aren't monsters who need to be dealt with. Nothing at all.

[Rex]

138. What is really special is that it is repeated in this thread by 4 or 5 people.

They must all bank at the same location.

[PragmaticLiberal]

145. I'm not arguing with anyone.

If you keep reading through the comments you'll see that the OP is basically saying "We caused this so don't make it worse by going after ISIS".

At least that's how I interpreted his/her position.

[sammythecat]

159. Ok, I get what you're saying

and I don't think attempting to stop these bastards is the wrong thing to do. I have no idea what the long term solution for this never ending religious insanity might be, or even if there is any effective solution at this point. It's such a god-awful tragic mess over there.
I do, however, place all of the blame squarely on Bush. He took what was a modern secular nation and turned it into the disaster it is today. Isis might or might not have come into existence anyway but I have a hard time imagining them even entering Saddam's Iraq let alone easily conquering half the country in 2 months time.

[RKP5637]

180. Agree! Bush and his cohorts destroyed a country for no reason, and Bush and his cohorts do

not suffer the consequences. The death and destruction caused by these assholes is phenomenal.

[randome]

11. Every action and non-action we take, or don't take, affects others.

Bush, Junior was (and is) a monster of a different sort but that doesn't mean his actions or non-actions made these monsters chop someone's head off.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[grahamhgreen]

14. I see it as the root cause of the horror, just like Vietnam was the root cause of the Khmer Rouge.

I think "Apocalypse Now" summed up the descent of humanity under brutal warfare very well.

When we excuse torture and war crimes, more monstrous creatures come into being, seems to me.

[randome]

25. It's a zero-sum argument. What are you going to do? Kill Bush, Junior?

Remember, most of the rest of the world helped decimate Iraq. It's 'convenient' to look into the mirror and see only an American reflection but there was at the time, unfortunately, more than one leader staring back at us.

That still has nothing to do with a band of killers trying to set up another version of Islamic fundamentalism where they can live happily ever after torturing women and non-believers.

Fuck 'em. I don't care where they came from.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[grahamhgreen]

29. You mean Saudi Arabia? "You can't win it" - GWB

[randome]

36. If there was a foreign policy I would be 100% behind, it would be to stand up more for human rights.

Women, minorities, gays, whatever. I would have no problem cutting off trade relations with any country -including Saudi Arabia- to further the goal of equality throughout the world.

That should be our 'crusade'. OTOH, we have politicians in charge of foreign policy and they don't seem to have those same priorities.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[grahamhgreen]

114. Point of agreement.

And I think we should walk away and let the Saudi's deal with their own poison.

[randome]

124. I can see that point.

But the Middle East hasn't progressed much in more than a thousand years. Oh, they have some of the technological trappings: more iPods, jeans and cars.

But in a cultural sense, they are still what I would consider 'backward'. And I'm fully aware that's a loaded word to use but it still conveys how I see it.

The argument can be made that if we backed off, did nothing, that the Middle East would fester into something no one would want to deal with. And with nuclear weapons lying about, these 'backward' cultures might end up blowing us all up along with their perceived enemies.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[grahamhgreen]

176. The argument I'm making is that we are the problem in the ME, not the solution. Backed by

disasterous results stemming from our violent solutions.

[Chan790]

195. The reality is...

much to the chagrin of the anti-war left...we're not much of a factor in the region on either side of that equation.

Only they can fix their own crap, meaning we're not part of the solution. Despite the assertions of you and others, we're not part of the problem either...not unless the US is responsible for Battle of Siffin in 657CE and the Battle of Karbala in 680CE.

It has nothing to do with us...the eternal fitna needs no subsequent cause or excuse; it's been going on with only the briefest of pauses for nearly 1400 years. Dylan Thomas wrote "After the first death, there is no other."...it's still all about Ali. (Really, your cause would be helped immediately if you had some notion of the history of the region.) Also, abandon your Americentrism...lots of things that go on in the world where they have an impact on us or compel the US to act...have f**k-all to do with America or America's past acts--even when the actors claim they do.

We can however lean on the global community for referee the conflict in order to protect innocents and civilians...and by some lines-of-thought have a moral and humanitarian obligation to do so if nobody else will.

[840high]

155. Good post.

[napi21]

254. No not kill GWB, but IMPEACH HIM.

Yes, a President & VP can be impeached after he leavs office. The result is they lose their pension and SS protection.

[gateley]

182. Excellent analogy. nt

[magical thyme]

259. Saddam Hussein kept the monsters in check

W set them free.

[malaise]

38. If the white people in Ferguson won't accept their fellow African-American citizens

who would hte people in the Middle East expect to be welcomed by people who know they have come to loot their resources and have slaughtered a million Iraqis in the process.

I don't get how or why people in America don't understand why they are hated in the Middle East.
Thanks Bush Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al. Thank the Brits and French too for they created the mess over a century ago. It's that simple.

[Chan790]

99. I dislike this argument...

it's very similar to the one that sometimes gets made by certain antisemitic historicist thinkers that blame for the Holocaust should mostly lie with David Lloyd George, Woodrow Wilson, and Georges Clemenceau for the "Carthaginian Peace" imposed on Germany in the Treaty of Versailles rather than with the leaders of the subsequent nationalist socialist movement in Germany.

Frankly, both argumentation deflect too much of the blame away from the people they rightfully belong to--respectively, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi and Adolf Hitler. The totality of blame for genocides lies, and should lie, with those perpetrating them. It is non-constructively deflective to assign blame on distant historical events from which the current genocide could not be anticipated, and those responsible for those far-histories.

It is also generally offensive.

[grahamhgreen]

183. Had Bush not invaded, James foley would be alive.

[Chan790]

194. That's a badly-flawed "what-if chain" argument.

If I'd gotten up at 8:57am yesterday rather than 9am, I'd have been traveling to work 3 minutes earlier and would have arrived to work earlier. Since I'm self-employed and only work until the day's work is done, I'd have finished 3 minutes earlier. I'd have arrived at the doctor's office three minutes earlier and she'd have finished my physical 3 minutes earlier, meaning she would have taken her lunch 3 minutes earlier which would have put her in line at the convenience store when the man choked to death rather than walking into the store 2 minutes after he choked to death. Why did I kill that man!?

I hope you see that event-chain is as nebulous and tenuous as the blame you wish to assert. Blaming Bush for Foley's death is ridiculous on a level like blaming butterflies for hurricanes and tsunamis. I may hate the guy, but I don't blame him for unforeseeable events of past actions...to do so is absurd. When the consequences you're trying to shift blame on are the death of a human being...it's deeply offensive.

One person and only one person bears responsibility for James Foley's death. The asshole who cut off his head.

Likewise, the only people responsible for the Iraqi genocide is IS. They did not need Bush...this is not the new issue you're ascribing it to be. Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq have been having this fight consistently and with only brief pauses since before the Crusades. IS didn't need GWB or American Imperialism as an excuse for anything they have done. Despite your desires to assert otherwise, George Walker Bush was not a factor in the death of James Foley nor does he share in the blame. You might as well blame Gavrilo Princip instead...the entire military history of the world and the region since 1914 ultimately all ties back to him shooting Archduke Ferdinand and Princess Sophie.

[BainsBane]

130. They came out of Syria

and resistance to the Assad regime. Isis is only three years old.

[TwilightGardener]

163. I read that they originated in Iraq. Al Baghdadi was held prisoner

during the Iraq war by US forces. I think they just took advantage of the unrest next door in Syria.

[BainsBane]

166. They came out of Al Qaeda in Iraq

and formed the Islamic State, which is reportedly very different from Al Qaeda or any other terrorist group in that they function as a state, provide protection, collect taxes, etc. They refuse to recognize national boundaries and the area they control extends between Syria, Iraq and the Kurdish region of Iraq. So I heard on the Diane Rehm show anyway. Here is the podcast. http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2014-08-12/latest-us-involvement-iraq

These expert also said ISIS is going nowhere. The best they can do at this point is contain them.

[treestar]

198. We all have a choice about becoming inhuman monsters

Bush may be one, but we can't let them blame each other and claim no control over their own actions. If Bush can do that, why aren't we? We could go after he and Cheney, etc., right, as the government doesn't prosecute?

[still_one]

204. come into being? They were always there. They are killing Muslims and minorities.

[grahamhgreen]

5. Really? And where was ISIS before we invaded Iraq? - Non-existent. Cause and effect. Don't chase the

tail.

[randome]

13. The only thing to chase is ISIS.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[grahamhgreen]

19. For how long? What is the mission? Chasing?

[randome]

31. How could anyone answer the question 'How long'?

These maniacs don't act human, IMO. I know that's a slippery slope when you try to see human beings as non-humans but the only alternative I see is to let them continue killing, beheading and torturing as many people as they please, including their own.

I would hope the 'mission' is to stop their murderous rampage, whatever it takes.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[notadmblnd]

181. I know another group that's getting a lot of media attention for their zeal for killing

maybe they'd like to go take care of ISIS? Anyone got the Ferguson PD Commander's number?

[grahamhgreen]

238. Yet, peple in our own country torture with impunity, should we not prosecute those at home who

torture first?

This war was designed as a trap. We go in, we kill and torture people (yes, we kill and torture women and children too), they get upset, they consider us 'non-humans', they respond by doing the same to us as we did to them, then we do it back to them. It's called a cycle of violence and we, as the initiators, should be the ones to stop it. The cycle of violence in the middle east has been going on for 1400 years - we can not stop it by more violence - that method has proven to fail.

[AngryAmish]

125. ISIL and ISIS exist because of good intentions.

Bush thought he had the best of intentions invading Iraq.
Obama had the best of intentions in encouraging the Arab Spring, which was a proximate cause of the Syrian civil war, which was a proximate cause of ISIL and ISIS.

The winning powers of ww1 had the best of intentions in dividing up the Ottoman Empires.

If there were anything I could do to change the middle east for the better it would be a region-wide ban on marrying your cousins. Inbreeding creates clannishness. Outbreeding does not. The modern nation state is not possible without greater social trust than is possible with cousin marriage. Nation-states only arose in europe after the catholic church banned cousin marriage.

We can't fix these people and the region is best avoided.

[dionysus]

188. very interesting perspective on the situation.

[In_The_Wind]

6. Indeed.

[conservaphobe]

40. This.

But good luck getting to those who think we can join hands and sing songs around a campfire until monsters see the light and stop their rampages.

[randome]

46. You could go even further back and say Barbara Bush is responsible for Iraq.

None of that matters now. We have a group on a murderous rampage that even Al-Qaeda wanted nothing to do with.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[conservaphobe]

47. I absolutely agree. nt

[samsingh]

105. good memory - she caused a lot of the evil after forcing her sons to steal the presidency i think

[grahamhgreen]

121. Your method of violence has provided what solution in the Middle East? You've cost us

Trillions, and our own blood, yet have nothing to show for it but an ever worsening situation.

I implore you to try our methods.

[conservaphobe]

142. Not my method. I was against the Iraq War.

I'm not against the actions we're taking against ISIS.

And I share the President's anger like any decent American.

[grahamhgreen]

184. It's a trap. A perpetration of the neo-con vision.

[qazplm]

147. yes ISIS

will stop genocide and murder if we just sit back and do nothing.

sorry some people don't operate the way you think they should.

There are limited times when violence is the answer.

Self defense is one, defense of others is the other.
A little column a, and a lot of column b here.

[grahamhgreen]

185. Saudi Arabia and Iran can take care of ISIS, might be good for them. We need to take care of our own

[Rex]

57. LOL!

[Octafish]

73. George Bush didn't invade Iraq?

Like Father? Like Son?

[Rex]

177. It's NOT that...it is that you are supposed to have moved on already.

Yeah strange thing watching people defend Bush...oh wait, been watching it since day ONE on DU.

You would think that after years, people would get tired of defending a warmonger...guess not.

[Octafish]

196. Real Road Scholars.

From Snowden, the documents lay out theories of how humans interact with one another, particularly online, and then attempt to identify ways to influence the outcomes – or “game” it:







We submitted numerous questions to GCHQ, including: (1) Does GCHQ in fact engage in “false flag operations” where material is posted to the Internet and falsely attributed to someone else?; (2) Does GCHQ engage in efforts to influence or manipulate political discourse online?; and (3) Does GCHQ’s mandate include targeting common criminals (such as boiler room operators), or only foreign threats?

As usual, they ignored those questions and opted instead to send their vague and nonresponsive boilerplate: “It is a longstanding policy that we do not comment on intelligence matters. Furthermore, all of GCHQ’s work is carried out in accordance with a strict legal and policy framework which ensures that our activities are authorised, necessary and proportionate, and that there is rigorous oversight, including from the Secretary of State, the Interception and Intelligence Services Commissioners and the Parliamentary Intelligence and Security Committee. All our operational processes rigorously support this position.”

These agencies’ refusal to “comment on intelligence matters” – meaning: talk at all about anything and everything they do – is precisely why whistleblowing is so urgent, the journalism that supports it so clearly in the public interest, and the increasingly unhinged attacks by these agencies so easy to understand. Claims that government agencies are infiltrating online communities and engaging in “false flag operations” to discredit targets are often dismissed as conspiracy theories, but these documents leave no doubt they are doing precisely that.

CONTINUED...

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/

"Money trumps peace."

[redqueen]

197. "road scholars"?

Did you mean to refer ro "Rhodes scholars"?

[Octafish]

221. Sorry, redqueen. It is a Terrible Pun.

Thought it would make a nice handle for those, whether by hobby or avocation, enjoy adding disinformation, misinformation, black white and gray propaganda and whatever else they find on the road into the mix.

[redqueen]

222. Aha

I was wondering WTF I was missing there

Nice post. No surprises though. Same shit, different decade (and media format).

[Rex]

200. Oh duh there is a link...lol

Last edited Thu Aug 21, 2014, 11:07 AM - Edit history (1)

Did see that.

[redqueen]

207. What does a lecture on a dark matter detector in 2009 have to do with techniques used

in online discussions?

This thread just gets worse and worse.

[Rex]

210. Sigh

More insults from you...what a shocker.

[redqueen]

213. I asked a question and commented on the thread.

That you choose to reply not by answering the question, but by pretending you've been insulted - especially after all the shit you've been so busy flinging at others in this thread - is quite rich.

[Rex]

216. Ya why would I answer insults with insults...strange of me right?

You are something else...okay bye now.

[samsingh]

103. precisely

[whatchamacallit]

137. Yes, pure fucking evil... like the fuckers that dropped a-bombs on civilian populations in ww2

[blueamy66]

148. Agree 100%

Sick of the excuses.

[chrisa]

161. Saddam killed all of the religious extremists in his country. ISIS would not exist if he were still

in power. We traded a rational but brutal tyrant for irrational religious fundamentalists.

ISIS are not "inhuman monsters." They're fundamentalists that feed off of a dying country. They would not exist had the Iraq War never happened.

[eridani]

191. Just like the Afghan mujahedeen that the US cheerfully supported in the 80s

Getting rid of Assad was apparently enough reason to pursue policies that left the opening for these shitstains.

The US and Israel have always supported religious whackjobs against secular nationalists. CIA agents cheerfully watched the fundies they were backing burn down schools for girls that the Kabul leftist government built.

[bobduca]

219. ProAmnesia

[malaise]

263. Do you really believe that the people in the Middle East

view the Western invaders as anything but monsters?

[Puzzledtraveller]

4. unbelievable

[HooptieWagon]

8. Retaliation for US airstrikes on ISIS...

according to their statement. Of course, they could have killed him for no other reason than being non-muslim and American.... who knows?

[gratuitous]

10. Can't argue these facts

Gee, after 12 years of bombing weddings, pissing on the corpses of the vanquished, blowing up residential neighborhoods, cutting off electricity and water, staging fake health clinics to spy on desperate people, and torturing folks, some of the survivors have risen up in murderous fury against us.

Whocuddanode?

[randome]

18. And that explains why they kidnap women and girls and kill so many non-Americans.

Wait. No it doesn't.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[redqueen]

22. Thank you.

This OP is embarrassing.

[msanthrope]

49. I think Satan just told Hitler to fire up the Zamboni...you and I

agree on something.

[Behind the Aegis]

91. LMAO!!

[theHandpuppet]

54. +1

JFC.

[leftynyc]

64. Agree

This blame America for everything nonsense is working my last nerve. This group has killed tens of thousands of Muslims - by beheading, by crucifixion, by plain old murder - and still there are those who refuse to believe they're doing it in the name of religion - it HAS to be because the US sucks - it just has to. Blech.

[ChazII]

128. +1, blaming the United States for everything is

also woking on my last nerve. You are not alone.

[leftynyc]

144. That's nice to know

And since I'm in bitch fest mode - I'm also tired of being told I'm not a liberal because I don't follow some cartoon cut out definition thought up by anonymous people on the internet. Whew - that felt good.

[ChazII]

165. Once more, agree 100%

It is getting tiresome to be told we are not liberal because we dare to disagree at times.

[redqueen]

134. It's bizarre. Even if you stipulate that yes, there would be no ISIS if not for those wars,

a noisy few will go so far as to accuse you of defending bush (?!) unless you then join them in making the leap to saying that it was therefore the Iraq war that caused this journalist's beheading.

Embarrassing, illogical nonsense.

[gratuitous]

24. ISIS appears to be taking revenge on those they can reach

If you need to see the exact same dynamic at work, take a look at some of the execrable sentiments expressed right here at this internet bastion of progressive thought.

[randome]

37. Were they thinking of revenge when they kidnapped school children?

Revenge for what? That they can't set up an even worse Islamic State? Oh, I feel so sorry for them. I will Tweet them an apology right away and see if that helps the situation.

If someone invaded America the way we invaded Iraq, could you see yourself as someday beheading a stranger?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[gratuitous]

53. Me? No, I couldn't behead a stranger

But reading some of the responses in this very thread, as well as some other posts around here, lead me to believe that there are members of longstanding at DU who would have no trouble at all beheading a stranger in retaliation for the offense committed by ISIS.

And that's the nut of the problem, right there, as far as I'm concerned.

[randome]

55. I couldn't behead anyone, either.

But for ISIS, I have no problem having them killed by whatever means are necessary. And if for some bizarre reason I had to do it myself, I would pull the trigger.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[gratuitous]

60. Then I suggest you enlist, or apply for a job with a mercenary outfit

I will tell you that that killing them will almost certainly result in the creation of a new, even more violent group that will commit even greater atrocities. More violence will not drive out this violence.

[randome]

100. Letting people die when we could prevent it won't drive out this violence, either.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[still_one]

205. ding ding ding, a winner

[leftynyc]

21. So why is ISIS killing

tens of thousands of Muslims? You want to blame that on a man who hasn't been President for 6 years also?

[gratuitous]

27. Hanh?

Do you think my foreshortened laundry list of U.S. led and sponsored crimes against humanity stopped six years ago? I regret it if I left you with that impression, because it was certainly not my intent. Many of our nation's criminal activities have survived the end of the Bush administration.

[leftynyc]

58. So these animals are responsible for nothing?

Not even killing tens of thousands of Muslims? Everything is the fault of the US?

I hope the reasons the far left has zero credibility or power in this country is not a mystery to anyone.

[grahamhgreen]

169. Zero credibility? How can you say that when the use of military force has been proven time and

again to be effective at nothing but sucking money from our pockets?

Are we better off now than before the wars?

[leftynyc]

190. When the far left

blames Bill Clinton for not lifting a finger to help in Rwanda - where people were getting butchered right and left but now want the President to sit on his hands and do nothing when people are getting butchered right and left (including an American who got beheaded), excuse me for thinking there is no core policy at all when it comes to the US military.

[grahamhgreen]

257. Not my part of the democratic socialist center of the country! The use of force in the ME is an

ongoing failure, proven time and time again. stop. you're killing people.

[leftynyc]

261. So you were okay

with the US standing by and watching the massacre in Rwanda? I ask because you specifically say the mid-east and I'm wondering if that's how you're squaring this in your mind. That because massacres are occurring in different geographical areas that somehow makes a difference in your mind.

[hughee99]

239. Nonsense. Military force is often effective in

accomplishing "change", but it's like doing surgery with a chainsaw, you might change the one problem you're focused on, but make another 10 issues much worse.

The military in Iraq effectively got Hussein out of power, and if that was Iraq's only issue at the time, it might have turned out okay, but Iraq had 50 other issues that were all made worse as a result.

[grahamhgreen]

258. So let's spend another trillion and see what happens? how bout we leave and fix our home.

[JI7]

42. so that's why the British ISIS member is killing innocent people in Syria, Iraq etc ?

[Rex]

59. Republicans would argue against those facts...

[redqueen]

12. No. ISIS executioners are the direct and proximate cause of his death.

It can be argued that our decades of wars and attacks and sanctions during every administration from GHWB till now influenced them, but they are the reason he is dead.

[grahamhgreen]

20. Agreed, what led to ISIS?

[seveneyes]

30. Being taught at a young age that a sky daddy wants them to rape, plunder and pillage

[Rex]

93. *CRICKETS*

It is as if some just don't want to answer your question. Obviously the illegal invasion of Iraq and the removal of it's dictator, ultimately led to the rise of fundamental extremists filling in the vacuum of power created.

THERE, it has been said...funny how some cannot handle that FACT.

[redqueen]

97. I don't argue with creationists either.

Once someone demonstrates that they don't have a decent grasp on logic, I stop wasting my time. Bye.

[Rex]

98. You mean you run off in defeat.

Well bye then.

[redqueen]

101. LOL, 'defeat'... fucking hell.

You imagine yourself in internet battle. Aren't you even slightly embarrassed?

Let me guess: No.



If only more people here were interested in discussion, rather than flexing their e-muscles in internet 'battles'.

[Rex]

102. Bye then.

LOL...you really should look in the mirror more often...okay bye then.

[FrodosPet]

158. The Sunni - Shia schism back in 632

That asshole Bush got in the Presidential time machine, started going by the name Yazīd ibn Mu‘āwiya ibn Abī Sufyān, and got the two sects fighting.

Then he fast forwarded to the 11th Century and started the crusades.

After that, he zipped to Egypt in the 1920s, changed his name to Sheikh Hassan Ahmed Abdel Rahman Muhammed al-Banna, and began the rise of modern political Islam.

Damn that Bush and his Presidential time machine!

[grahamhgreen]

167. You're right, of course, the conflict goes back 1400 years so WTF are we doing there,

do you really think spending another 3 trillion in Iraq will do anything except profit the war machine?

Really?

[FrodosPet]

171. Hmmm...I did not know I was saying that

I've come to the conclusion that radical Islam is going to conquer the world by the end of the century regardless of what we do, so I say "Fuk it all! Sit back, turn on the news channel, drink some IPAs, smoke some stinky sticky goods, and watch with the satisfaction that our hands are bloodless while they are killing each other over there."

[grahamhgreen]

173. They were killing eachother a lot less before we arrived. We are the abusive husband of the middle

east. The police are knocking at our door telling us to stop beating our wife and kids, but we swear, if we beat them more, they will finally listen.... Time to leave and stop being violent.

[treestar]

199. It's a lot more complex than just saying it was Bush's war

It would no doubt include the history of that era for centuries.

We could even argue they had a shot at Democracy after our invasion.

[leftynyc]

15. So who do you blame for

the beheading of Daniel Pearl?

[grahamhgreen]

26. Again, blowback for our middle east meddling. Goes back supporting Osama in Afganistan.

[leftynyc]

56. So is the US is responsible

for jihadists everywhere and everything they do - including murdering tens of thousands of their own brothers and sisters by beheadings and crucifying?

[grahamhgreen]

77. They've been doing it for 1400 years, but they weren't doing it to us.

[seveneyes]

16. There is no excuse for ISIL murdering people

[grahamhgreen]

23. Or torture.... not even "patriotism"

[FSogol]

17. WOOT! Blame America first!

Did you forget we pulled out of Iraq in 2011? A journalist was killed because some terrorist a-holes want power. We are just an excuse for their fundraising and recruitment.

[grahamhgreen]

32. The terrorist we helped to overthrow Assad in Syria.

[FSogol]

41. So Assad is no longer in power? And we somehow become responsible for every civil war?

I'm glad we got the chemical weapons out of Syria, but that doesn't make us responsible for everything.

[JI7]

45. what ?? you do know Assad has not been overthrown ? and just recent reporting was about

how Obama did not go along with those who wanted to do more to arm rebels to get rid of assad.

[moondust]

174. Maybe if Assad had stepped down

and moved to his luxury estate in London or Switzerland or wherever, maybe the moderate reformers could have taken over Syria before the bloodthirsty nutjobs moved there to join in the carnage--before thousands of Syrians were killed and many thousands of others displaced to refugee camps--maybe this whole ISIS mess never would have developed.

[chrisa]

164. But it is our fault. We removed Saddam Hussein, which allowed fundamentalism to flourish in Iraq.

Saddam would kill all of these people.

[brentspeak]

236. Did you forget that we removed the one guy

and power structure in Iraq which would had ruthlessly put down this kind of Islamist insurgency in its infancy? Actually, with Saddam or his sons still in power, there would never have been the kind of power vacuum and general chaos which would even have given birth to an ISIS movement in the first place.

Saddam's overthrow is the proximate cause of the chaos in Iraq and an essential factor in ISIS' formation and growth. As brutal as he was, the unfortunate, unavoidable truth is that everyone would have been better off with a Saddam or his sons ruling Iraq. And to top it all off, Saddam was never close to ever getting his hands on actual WMD, after all. But ISIS or their successors very well might.

[Rex]

265. Much easier to act like a child and post

'blame America first'...a few here take no responsibility for anything we do.

[leftyohiolib]

28. bagdadi was a nobody untill we arrested him and held him for 6 years

[RandiFan1290]

33. This is the next generation we were warned about.

This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone after all the conversations over the last 11 years.
This is the $audi Arabia way and can't be all that bad since they are such loyal allies.

[B2G]

34. Fuck that.

And double fuck your line of 'reasoning'.

[grahamhgreen]

35. And f#ck torturers too, right?

[Maedhros]

44. I'm not following you.

Are you saying that Bush-era war criminals should NOT be prosecuted, or are you saying that ISIL is not the result of destabilizing the Middle East by destroying Iraq and leaving a power vacuum?

[Rex]

63. YEP.

Funny who is in this thread defending the BFEE...well not really, pathetic is more like it.

[JI7]

39. ISIS is to blame, this is like wingnuts blaming illegal immigrants who murder

and commit other crimes on their immigration status.

[grahamhgreen]

116. Where did ISIS come from?

[JI7]

127. they come from all over , the guy who killed the reporter was likely a Brit.

[JI7]

43. didn't the guy who killed him have a British Accent ?

[SummerSnow]

51. Yes, and the British Intelligence is trying to find out who he is.

Hunt for 'British' Islamic State killer of US journalist James Foley

Intelligence agencies try to identify masked jihadi killer of James Foley who spoke with accent believed to be from London or southern England

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iraq/11044977/Hunt-for-British-Islamic-State-killer-of-US-journalist-James-Foley.html

Intelligence agencies are trying to identify the killer of American journalist James Foley after he spoke with what appeared to be an English accent.The Islamic State jihadi, clad all in black with his face covered, addressed the camera during a five-minute video and delivered an anti-American rant in what appeared to be an accent from London or southern England.

It will raise fears about the role of extremists from the UK in Islamic State, which now controls large swathes of Syria and Iraq.
One tweet from an account dedicated to the "upcoming conquest of the Americas" described the man as a "foreign muhaji, British, who climbed the ranks and shook America to its knees." However, it was unclear if the author knew his identity or was simply responding to media reports.

In the video the masked man points a knife at the camera with his left hand and says: "This is James Wright Foley, an American citizen, of your country. As a government, you have been at the forefront of the aggression towards the Islamic State.
"Today, your military air force is attacking us daily in Iraq...any attempt by you, Obama, to deny the Muslims their rights of living in safety under the Islamic Caliphate will result in the bloodshed of your people."
The man also issued a threat to Mr Obama that a second US journalist, Time magazine contributor Steven Sotloff, missing since last August, would be killed unless air strikes cease. He said: "The life of this American citizen, Obama, depends on your next decision."
A US official told the Associated Press the video appeared to be authentic. Two other US officials said the victim was Foley.

[redqueen]

61. There seem to be a lot of ISIS sympathizers in the UK.

What's that about?

[SummerSnow]

65. I found an interesting article about that in my local paper..

ISIS supporters seen handing out Islamic propaganda across London that encourages people to move to Middle East
Sympathizers of the bloodthirsty terrorist organization that has wreaked havoc across Syria and Iraq are actively handing out pamphlets and other materials across London that suggest lawful Muslims ‘obey the Khaleef’ and ‘migrate’ to the Middle East.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/isis-supporters-handing-islamic-propaganda-london-encourages-people-move-middle-east-article-1.1902390#ixzz3Ay1AsyBG

[redqueen]

66. Yeah I read about that in the Guardian last week.

And some estate there had the ISIS flag up for a while too.

[grahamhgreen]

117. Blowback. There were no ISIS supporters before Abu Ghraib, et al.

[Rex]

135. *CRICKETS*

[qazplm]

149. ok this is dumb

ISIS has VERY little to do with us until we started bombing them to keep them from taking out the Kurds.

UP til then, they were murdering OTHER Muslims, and Christians, and others who weren't their extreme religion. Not Americans, not even Europeans, other folks in the ME.

But you think that's tied to Abu Gharib?

That's beyond nonsensical. That's not right, it's not even wrong.

[JI7]

152. ISIS came about During Obama's PResidency so maybe it was Obama's fault just like TEabaggers

are Obama's Fault ...........................

as if people are unable to be held responsible for their own actions.

just poor innocent people whoa re being forced to kidnap, rape, kill ..............

[randome]

153. Good analogy.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[mwrguy]

119. And in the Netherlands

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/27/isis-s-black-flags-are-flying-in-europe.html

http://www.newsweek.com/pro-isis-demonstrators-call-death-jews-hague-262064

[Loudly]

48. SCOTUS friends of Poppy installed Bush/Cheney. I blame them.

I also blame the SCOTUS installation of Bush/Cheney for the attacks of 9/11.

[SummerSnow]

50. ...

[Jeevessie]

52. For once, GW's Iraq folly didn't create this horror

Why Did an American Journalist Get His Head Cut Off?

Granted, GW will end up in History books as one of the worst Presidents ever (iraq..)

But this beheading = GW? No dice. IF you are a Quran literalist, you don't need GW.

Beheading opponents is in the doctrine (see Banu Qurayza massacre, Quran surah 33)

[grahamhgreen]

179. Had bush never invaded, there would be no ISIS. Foley would be alive.

Last edited Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:27 AM - Edit history (1)

[Rex]

62. I LOVE how the usual suspects squealed in anger that you called it right!

Funny watching 'posters' here get so angry at the truth...I guess their defense of Bush comes from, ya know where...

Ignore the angry mob here...they want us to forget all about Bush and his KEY ROLE in the formation of ISIS.

[msanthrope]

67. Kindly name the DUer you think is defending Bush? nt

[Rex]

68. The first poster...that is all they've done this entire thread. nt

nt

[msanthrope]

70. Randome is defending Bush? nt

[Rex]

71. Are you blind? nt

nt

[FSogol]

74. LOL, ask your doctor if reading comprehension is right for you!

[Rex]

78. Yeah totally predictable coming from you.

NEXT.

[FSogol]

82. Laughing at you must mean I support Bush!

[Rex]

83. It's okay I understand how uneasy you must feel now.

Seriously watching people cry over Bush being blamed for the mess in Iraq is PRICELESS.

[FSogol]

84. Uneasy?

[Rex]

85. .

[FSogol]

88. Okay, I give up. Here's a free reading comprehension lesson for the posts you misunderstand in this

thread:

Blaming ISIS or a murder or terrorism committed by ISIS doesn't = support for GWB.

HTH.

[Rex]

89. You are good at completely missing the point

Wow didn't say that at all...you should try some free reading comprehension lessons...that is just sad.

Defending Bush over ultimately causing ISIS to come into formation = support for GWB

LOL

[FSogol]

150. Bet you had one of these as a kid

[Rex]

151. Are you saying that you did not have one as a kid?

[treestar]

202. Sure sign of losing an argument

Create a straw man, especially one that involves a personality rather than the issue!

[msanthrope]

80. No....but if I was, I could still see you missing the point. nt

[Rex]

81. Right...that is what it must be.

Yeah stay angry.

[msanthrope]

140. Angry? No, my friend, amused at the miserable fail of this OP. nt

[Rex]

141. Nice try, but the only failure is on your part.

Have a great day!

[Number23]

154. !!!

[LanternWaste]

75. I imagine "Angry mob" is simply people who may disagree

I imagine "Angry mob" is simply people who may disagree; quite the melodramatic color you place on it. "Squeal' is another good color word-- it fundamentally means nothing, but in its petulant, it trivializes the concerns and explanations others may have.

For all practical purposes vis-a-vis the OP, yours is a useless post... but the child-like colors, the sub-literate drama, the third-grade angst you so obviously and shamelessly play off of is almost a verbal rendition of a Harlequin romance novel cover.

Well played. Well played, indeed.

[Rex]

76. Thanks, you insights into these things always provide enormous value.

I LOVE how you guys can't handle the FACT that the prime reason for ISIS is because Bush invaded Iraq...it is amusing watching you guys squirm.

[redqueen]

86. 'posters'? Defending Bush?

. The OP is wildly illogical and embarrassing, but this subthread is just... wow.

[Rex]

90. Bullshit.

If you cannot handle someone else blaming Bush (ultimately) for this, then you should as yourself why.

The OP seems to rub people the wrong way, all he said is that Bush is to blame for this...why such hostility?

[redqueen]

92. People tend to react negatively to attempts to shift blame.

Even the subject line rhetorically lets ISIS off the hook. (He doesn't say why did members of ISIS cut off his head, he leaves the agent of this act of violence out entirely, which is damning in itself.)

Saying that our wars facilitated or even precipitated the formation of this group of rapist, murderous sub-humans is one thing. Saying that those wars are why ISIS cut off this reporter's head is fucking stupid.

[Rex]

94. Shift blame?

Wowzers. So you don't believe in cause and effect either like a few in this thread? Learned something new today.

[redqueen]

95. Fucking sad.

Good luck with improving your understanding of cause and effect.

[Rex]

96. See post #93

Good luck with your anger over facts.

[grahamhgreen]

172. The logic is

impeccable.

Hade we not invaded Iraq, there would be no ISIS. Agreed?

[randome]

118. I'll pose the same question I posed to another poster.

If America was treated the same way we treated Iraq, would you run around beheading 'infidels'? I doubt it because I don't think you're a monster.

Bush, Junior did not make people kidnap, torture and behead strangers any more than he 'made' the CIA torture prisoners.

You have to already be a monster to find a way to let it out.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Rex]

123. Why not just admit that the BFEE killing off Saddam led to the rise of ISIS

and groups like ISIS? Is it really that hard to be critical of the BFEE? Why the anger and hostility toward the OP, when they are just pointing out a simple fact.

Cheney is a monster, that helped make Saddam into a big monster, that was killed by our order and let in a lot bigger and more extreme monsters.

Is that not a FACT?

[randome]

126. Sure, we 'let in' some of the monsters. But they were already monsters.

What we did to Iraq was monstrous on its own. That still does not exculpate ISIS from their own crimes against humanity.

And saying 'BFEE! BFEE!' does absolutely nothing to help the situation we find ourselves in today.

For hundreds of thousands of years, the world has turned on bad decisions and ill-considered ventures. None of them excuse what monsters do to their fellow human beings.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Treat your body like a machine. Your mind like a castle.[/center][/font][hr]

[Rex]

129. Who said anyone was letting ISIS get a freebee over their crimes? Where?

So that would be a NO...you cannot just admit to that one simple FACT. Thanks, I figured as much but it was worth a try.

Saying BFEE seems to piss off a certain type of poster on DU...really strange phenom.

[treestar]

201. No this is more along the lines of the Israeli/Palestinian wars

Where they blame each other, because of the other's last outrage they "have to" commit one of their own. It's a way to keep the conflict going. But no one outside is interested or listening any more. And is even ISIS saying this?

And your ill will towards other DUers is showing. It's conservative-ish to gloat or wish discomfort on those with whom we disagrees. I'm sure you wouldn't want to be called "one of the usual suspects" over your opinions and would think it unfair.

[JEB]

69. Let the money making continue.

Gotta keep making bombs etc. Nobody with any real power gives a shit about a beheaded journalist.

[Rex]

72. NP...just don't blame Bush ultimately for this mess, he seems to have defenders here

that get pissed off at that sort of thing.

[JEB]

156. One thing in life I will never do is

defend Bush. Still doubtful our country will survive the path he put us on. Of course, the corporations and the politicians they sponsor will continue to prosper. The rest of us peons had better watch out. This whole cop thing in Ferguson is just practice for the big clamp down.

[Rex]

79. K&R for pissing off all the right people!

[stevenleser]

206. You understand that is extremely childish, right? nt

[Rex]

211. LOL!

I understand that it pissed off all the right people...as to what you think, who cares.

[stevenleser]

212. Its childish. nt

[Rex]

214. Aww boo hoo...

AS IF you act like an adult, I've seen much worse out of you on this site. Please, take it to someone that cares.

[stevenleser]

217. Aw boo hoo is exactly what a childish person would say. Keep proving my point. nt

[Rex]

218. Like you actually have a point.

Seriously, you don't have the ability to behave like an adult...so it is rich watching you lecture me. Isn't there some AM radio station you can go bother or something?

[stevenleser]

220. The point is that your post was childish. nt

[Rex]

223. Yes you keep saying that over and over...do you actually

do anything constructive with your life or just spam internet forums?

[fadedrose]

87. Bush, enough blame, but not as much as

Cheney hoodwinked Bush like some Svengali...

I sort of remember that Dad Bush was not in favor of this war...

GWB might be painting puppies as therapy for his guilt in not understanding what was going on.

Cheney feels no regret, or guilt, and has the audacity to blame Obama for the mess he made with his cronies . . .

[samsingh]

104. both groups are evil

[grahamhgreen]

107. "Hatred does not cease by hatred, but only by love; this is the eternal rule." - Buddha

[samsingh]

215. but it must be intelligently applied.

weakness results in people getting killed

[grahamhgreen]

224. The weakness in our case, is considering our torturers "patriots", and refusing to prosecute.

[samsingh]

227. that is absolutely true - the bush junta should be prosecuted and likely find themselves in prison

or worse depending on the state the trials are held

[ZombieHorde]

106. Why do you believe the invasion was illegal?

Didn't Congress vote for the invasion? Or are you referring to a different set of laws, such as Iraqi law?

[Rex]

108. International law.

Not that we really care much about what other nations think...but there ya go.

[ZombieHorde]

109. Are you talking about the UN?

I am pretty ignorant on the subject of international law.

[Rex]

110. Yes the UN.

From the UNs POV, the invasion was illegal.

[ZombieHorde]

111. Didn't many members of the UN support the invasion?

Didn't many of our allies send a small number of troops to help out?

[Rex]

112. Not many, that is why it was called the Coalition of the Willing.

If the US and the UK would have gone to the security council for a resolution...and it would have passed, then the UN would have given them a green light. However, both US and UK knew they would never get a resolution to pass on the SC...so they formed the Coalition and invaded Iraq after Congress approved the IWR.

[ZombieHorde]

113. Aha! I remember that.

Thanks for the history reminder.

[Rex]

120. NP. I like talking about history.

One of my favorite subjects.

[RandiFan1290]

115. *

*because we were spying on the UN SC members.

[Rex]

122. Yes we knew the rest of the council would never agree.

So we barged in anyway...pretending Saddam had drones filled with sarin gas, ready and just waiting to head toward the US.

Looking back on all the lies told by the BFEE...it amazes me how anyone could believe Iraq was an actual threat.

[grahamhgreen]

175. Didn't Colin Powell lie to the UN?

[chrisa]

162. It was illegal because the stated reasons for the war were all fabricated.

It was also an aggressive invasion of a sovereign country that did not pose a threat to anyone.

[grahamhgreen]

168. Congress was lied to. This is an illegal war of aggression under US treaty obligations.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

131. ISIS, ISIL, IS... reared up

because we took out the megalomaniac, power-mad, criminally-insane Hussein. He was all those horrible things but he ruled the country with an iron fist. With him gone, there is a power vacuum and no one to fill it... so they are running wild. They have seen a chance to 'be something' and they are running and gunning with it...

sP

[EX500rider]

160. Except they came from Syria, not Iraq?

I'd lay the blame on the "Arab Spring" going all pear shaped in Syria.

[grahamhgreen]

170. They came from the rebels we funded in Syria, who came from the Sunnis we paid off in Iraq.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

192. i would say that a lot of it is not so much WHERE they came FROM

but where they have gone TO (yes, that grammar seems a little off to me, too). they have sought a theatre of operations where there is very little organized resistance (or not well armed)... from there they can build their power base to expand...

sP

[grahamhgreen]

226. Reminds me of our original invasion!

[frazzled]

132. Why not take it back even further--to the Crusades?

I mean, really, this all started in 1095.

I was one of the loudest and most staunch opponents of the war in Iraq. I harangued my senator to vote against the Iraq War Resolution in 2002--I must have called his office 12 times, to no avail. Then in 2003 I marched with 50,000 people in Boston to protest it. I wrote letters, I accosted politicians.

But even I am not stupid enough to lay blame for the current actions of ISIS/ISIL—whom nobody here has been much interested in while they were busy imposing tyranny on Syrians in Raqqa and Aleppo: tortures, executions, mock trials for things like alcohol consumption, abuse of children—fully on the shoulders on our invasion of Iraq.

Sure, it roiled up the currents that have been there all along, and which had been suppressed by the equally appalling rule of tyrants and dictators in that region. But let's not let our opposition to one thing turn into faux support for the other.

We have what we have now. We can't go back and change the past. This group is a monstrous travesty, and you can shrug your shoulders and live in the past, blaming Bush: but that won't do anything to correct the situation on the ground right now. You're going to have to take some kind of position that is more useful than opening another can of beer and flogging the Shrub one more time. It's lazy, it's uncourageous, and it's pointless.

So ... what do you propose to do about the situation with ISIS now?

[JI7]

133. this is like blaming the war in Iraq on Al Qaeda because of 9/11

just because bush used it as justification for the war.

yeah, doesn't mean al qaeda isn't evil and did something horrible. but also doesn't mean the ones who actually carried out the war(bush administration) should not be blamed.

in the same way Bush is to blame for the war in Iraq. but ISIS is to blame for their own actions in killing innocents who are mostly muslim and arab.

[CrawlingChaos]

139. K&R, I absolutely agree with you

Destabilization gives psychopaths the opportunity to rise to power, and the Bushies fucking knew that when they embarked on their criminal enterprise. Chaos and mayhem are their bread and butter.

[grahamhgreen]

178. Thanks! This is all part if the neo-con vision of the world unfolding.

[Boom Sound 416]

143. Tell them to take it up with the Saudis

They let us stage on the holy land which is what pissed off OBL only he was to chicken shit to take on his own family.

Oh, and you're a little off on how you see it with regard to Iraq (albeit a worthless war)

[etherealtruth]

146. Religious extremism

[JI7]

157. actually if Saddam was still in power they would probably be one of his people

who would carry out executions of those saddam found a threat and raping women and girls.

sometimes people are just scum.

[Iggo]

193. So that the people who watch the video would be scared.

So scared that they'll do something stupid.

That's how it works, kids.

Don't play along.

[still_one]

203. because they are garbage. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention to what these assholes have

doing to innocent Muslim civilians

There is no excuse to what these savages are doing

[grahamhgreen]

246. They've been doing what Osama told us they would do to us - Bankrupting our country,

just like he did with the soviet union - don't get sucked in

[still_one]

255. We are not being bankrupted by these criminals

[grahamhgreen]

256. BS - don't you remember all the deficit battles? This war has caost us 3-6 trillion. Who will pay

for the new war?

Me? Again?

This is more Bush terra propaganda - don't fall for it.

[still_one]

260. This doesn't need an invasion or a war. Air support and advisors for those countries infested with

this vermin

[grahamhgreen]

262. How bout we start with Lindsay Graham, John Mcain, and prince Bandar.... Who funded these guys to

against Assad?

[maced666]

208. You do realize most beheaded murdered are Muslim...

This group has no defense but I'm sure they appreciate your sympathies and justifications for their cause.

[grahamhgreen]

247. No sympathies, just solutions- obviously our projection of more violence into the region has left us

wanting.

[stevenleser]

209. There is no excusing ISIS and no indication they would not be radicalized without US actions

Just because Bush, Cheney and several of the rest of that cabal are war criminals, doesnt excuse ISIS.

[grahamhgreen]

248. there is clear PROOF that our violence has caused the Iraq situation to deteriorate.

[stevenleser]

264. Iraq<>ISIS. nt

[0rganism]

225. he did not "get his head cut off". ISIL scum murdered him.

Your verbage attributes responsibility to the victim and imho you should watch out for that. That murder was a planned, intentional act by a cruel zealot who made his own choices along the way, of his own volition and free will, to killing an innocent on camera. Putting it all on GWB's head is giving that diptstick war criminal of a president a lot more credit than he deserves.

Certainly, a lot of blame for regional instability can be placed on GWB and his cohorts, along with several x 100000 deaths directly. That in no way excuses and only partially explains actions of this particular murderer, or ISIL fanatics, or terrorist fuckwads generally.

[grahamhgreen]

249. I can agree with that. But for Bush's war, Foley would be alive.

[clarice]

228. If it looks like bullshit...and smells like bullshit it must be this op. nt

[grahamhgreen]

230. Can we both agree that James Foley would not have been killed by ISIS, had Bush not lied our country

into war in Iraq?

Can we agree that the world would be a better place had we accepted the Talibans offer to deliver Osama to The Hague, rather than invade a country that had nothing to do with 9-11?

[clarice]

235. I'm sorry my friend...I can't agree on either point.....

I believe that it is just an uncivilized Country.

[grahamhgreen]

240. Ours (by torturing and bombing women and children and conducting wars of agression), or theirs?

[clarice]

241. Comparing our civilization to theirs is unthinkable. nt

[grahamhgreen]

250. Do we torture people? Yes or no.

[NCTraveler]

231. This is the type of discussion black and white thinking leads to. nt.

[grahamhgreen]

232. I disagree, it's the type of discussion that holds people accountable for their actions, be it war

crimes or torture.

How can we condemn ISIS for brutality when we call our own torturers "patriots"?

[NCTraveler]

233. I had no clue I call my own torturers "patriots".

I promise you, you have the full authority to condemn ISIS for brutality. Somewhat shocking you don't think you can condemn them.

[grahamhgreen]

242. The President called them patriots:

“And there was enormous pressure on our law enforcement and our national security teams to try to deal with this, and it’s important for us not to feel too sanctimonious in retrospect about the tough job that those folks had and a lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots.”

“I think it would have been unethical or immoral for us not to do everything we could in order to protect the nation against further attacks like what happened on 9/11.”

- Obama on torture


Yes, I do condemn them, but, in my view, we need to root them out in our own neighborhood, before we worry about them half-way around the globe.

We are creating the terrorists over there, every bomb is like a seed. We plant a new crop of terror with every air strike, IMHO.

[NCTraveler]

244. "How can we condemn ISIS for brutality when we call our own torturers "patriots"?"

I am very happy to see this discussion has changed your mind. Initially you refused to condemn them. Now you full agree they are to be condemned by you. Big change on your part. Some patient people here worked on you for that change. I promise you it is for the best. You really shouldn't find it too hard to condemn some of the most right wing religious fundamentalists the world has to offer. These right wing fundy groups, the ones you find such difficulty in condemning, are understood as the monsters they are by most. I'm very glad most don't need the discussion that had to happen here for you to figure it out.

[grahamhgreen]

252. Now, perhaps I can get you folks to understand that violence will not quell the confilct in the ME..

[brentspeak]

234. Your premise is correct

While the direct cause of ISIS atrocities is entirely due to ISIS itself (obviously), ISIS would never have come into existence in the first place had Bush never invaded Iraq. Murderous dictator as Saddam was, his overthrow removed forever whatever stability Iraq had going for it. Saddam's removal from power opened up a bottomless hornet's nest of sectarian and competing Islamist factions to form out of nothing and run rampart all over the region. Saddam at least had the wherewithal and the ability to put down upstart Islamist revolts.

Sometimes, the devil you know really is better than the devil you don't.

[LittleBlue]

237. ISIS is responsible for killing the journalist. We're responsible for creating a power vacuum where

ISIS has thrived. Most of us with sense knew (not the State Department or DOD apparently) that once Saddam was gone, Iraq had too many ethnic tensions to have a sunshine and rainbows democracy. Then we set up a government that can't possibly govern all of Iraq. And to protect that government, we trained a military that throws down its weapons and runs as soon as ISIS appears.

You can finger point and provide solid evidence all the way back to the Mongolian hordes who sacked Baghdad. Yes, even they can be blamed for Iraq's struggles. That doesn't mean we're blameless. Our role should be acknowledged. We didn't kill him, we didn't enslave Yazidi girls, but we most certainly created the environment that birthed and nurtured ISIS.

[grahamhgreen]

243. We can prosecute the criminals that got us into this mess, no?

[LittleBlue]

245. If I had my way

they would be in chains at The Hague.

[LeftishBrit]

251. While those who chose to invade Iraq were war criminals; and this mess would probably not have

happened if they had not done so, the Islamic State militants, including the British butcher who murdered James Foley, do have personal responsibility! GWB did not FORCE them to become crazed murderers.

[grahamhgreen]

253. Of course they do, but if you want a solution to the problem, we need to clean house here,

that means prosecuting Bush era war crimes.