You know what? It's simply a fact that Assad is killing people

[cali]

indiscriminately. You may not like that fact, but unless you are so ideologically blinded that you can't see anything that doesn't fit with your biases, you know that's factual. It's documented up the yin yang. Citizens, reporters, NGOs, etc., all confirm that.

Acknowledging this doesn't mean one supports any sort of military intervention.

One of the things that really gets me is the crap I'm seeing all too frequently here about how the Syrian people back the gov't and how the protesters are terrorists- yes, I've seen that opined here on more than one occasion, or how the civil war in Syria is an Imperialist plot.

Assad is a bad actor clinging to power. That doesn't excuse western imperialism. It doesn't negate the ugly history of U.S. interference and intervention in the Middle East, but the Assad gov't has been oppressive for some time- and that's largely what people are protesting against. They did it in Egypt and other countries. Why is it so unfathomable that they'd do so in Syria?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

1. totally agree. The slaughter is the starting point from which any/everything else springs

I don't believe that the US should be intervening militarily, either alone or through NATO. I do look forward to the day that Assad gets erased from the planet--preferably by a Syrian, and I also understand that the power vacuum could potentially be dangerous. But, this guy is killing children with ammunition meant for armored personnel carriers. He's having the wounded executed in their hospital beds. He needs to be gone, irrespective of any global chess games being played by major powers.

[Cleita]

2. I've been beating this same drum. The same goes for the underreported situation in Bahrain as well.

We have to back the Bahrain government because we have our ships based there. We have to ignore Syria because we can't upset China or something to that effect. It's just nasty business all around and I'm ashamed our government is not trying to help all principals involved to come to a humanitarian solution. F**k the military and the Chinese.

[RZM]

3. Some of the responses here to the Arab spring have been all too predictable

When the regime is pro-American (Egypt, Saudi Arabia) then the protesters are freedom fighters and deserve to be cheered. When the regime is anti-American (Syria, Libya), then the protesters have no agency whatsoever and are just Western stooges preparing the ground for the inevitable imperialist occupation.

It is a little irritating. BTW, I noticed this on Libya threads BEFORE the intervention. Some posters were attempting to minimize the rebels from the outset.

The truth is that whatever their relations with the US, just about all of these regimes are bad. And all of the protester/rebel groups contain some bad people too. But all of the protest movements also contain secular liberals - just the kind of people that DU is supposed to be supporting.

[Cleita]

5. Those trying to minimize the rebels from the outset, I have a theory, have

a poker in the fire to keeping the status quo, or have been convinced by those that this is the way it should be. Those of us with ties to countries that have had brutal regimes (for me, Pinochet's Chile) know that no brutal regime should be allowed to exist, no matter how many interests profit from them.

[RZM]

8. My theory is that it's mostly just classic 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'

Many posters here view the US as public enemy number one. Therefore, they cannot under any circumstances side with the US on a foreign policy matter and are very reluctant to side against a regime with a proven anti-American track record. That's especially true of the ME, where the US of course does have a recent rack record of invasion and intervention.

It's kind of amusing to watch, because it's actually a very American way of looking at the world. Americans tend to think the world revolves around them and nothing really happens without some sort of US role. On the right, this usually translates to 'we're number 1 and we run things.' On the left, it's 'America is evil and responsible for the world's problems.' What's so funny is that neither side realizes both arguments are essentially coming from the same flawed premise.

[Cleita]

10. I have seen American foreign policy in action quite close in other countries. I do not care for our

foreign policy. Historically it dates back to the Monroe doctrine which ought to be put in a glass case in the Smithsonian and forgotten. However, we can't forget we have the most formidable military machine in the world if some crazy person get's into the White House and wants to use its full force, which is why the righties tend to think the world revolves around us. So many of us on the left tried to stop the war machine during the VietNam action. Unfortunately, the restraints we tried to put on our military made it mutate into what it is today and enabled the Bush/Cheney administration to use it to try to consolidate oil interests in the Middle East. Unfortunately, we are part of the problem and we are going to have to be part of the solution.

[Boojatta]

19. Could you elaborate on this?

the restraints we tried to put on our military made it mutate into what it is today and enabled the Bush/Cheney administration to

Which restraints?
How were the restraints responsible for making it what it is today?
How did those restraints enable the Bush/Cheney administration?

[Cleita]

25. Killing the draft for one opened up the opportunity to hire mercenaries, outsource

and privatize jobs like KP that was done by the troops and frankly turned a citizens' military into one of professionals. Also, we never outsourced our torture until after then. We knew torture was wrong and with draftees in the ranks, it wasn't practiced with impunity like it is now.

Also, I know you haven't been in a cave during the whole Bush/Cheney administration. Are you saying you approve of what they did with our military and the opportunity afforded them with the changes in the New Army etc., etc.? Or, are you too young to remember Viet Nam? I remember WWII so don't BS me. I have seen the differences since then up until now.

[Boojatta]

43. How should I interpret this?

#1. We knew torture was wrong, and
#2. with draftees in the ranks,
#3. it wasn't practiced with impunity
#4. like it is now.

For example, is the change from knowing that torture is wrong to not knowing that it's wrong associated with the placing of a restraint on the military? I imagine that it could be expressed in those terms. For example, a soldier might be restrained from reporting waterboarding if the higher-ups in the military have asserted that under the law waterboarding doesn't constitute torture and isn't to be reported to them. On the other hand, I wouldn't expect anybody to guess that from your earlier post that simply referred to "restraints."

When you refer to a citizens' military, a professional military, mercenaries, and draftees, you are talking about a number of distinct concepts. Theoretically, a professional military doesn't have to include any draftees. In practice, a professional military in many cases doesn't include any mercenaries.

Anyway, thanks for the details. I don't know how my choice of words contributed to giving you the idea that I approved of what the Bush/Cheney admin. did, but I will take into consideration any suggestions you might have on choice of words.

[Posteritatis]

14. The whole "foreigners can't have agency of any sort" thing is probably my biggest pet peeve here. nt

[Odin2005]

69. They are the "West is Evil" brigade.

They are the types that think any dictator that is anti-West is good and anything bad said about them are evil western lies.

Much of their rhetoric is regurgitated Stalinist talking points about "patsies of Western running-dog imperialists".

[Daniel537]

75. Exactly. I will never understand where this extreme hatred of their country comes from

and how on Earth does that lead them to support mass-murdering thugs? I challenge any of these people to actually live in one of these anti-American paradises, as i did, and then get back to me.

[Odin2005]

77. They are like the Western Communists who adored Stalin in the 30s and 40s.

And they, including one poster in this thread use similar rhetoric.

[joshcryer]

102. Yes, that was a very hurtful realization I had when it came to the Arab Spring.

It broke my heart and I almost left DU because of it.

Instead I decided that, in the end, if I didn't support those who were diminished, ridiculed, hated, then no one here would.

[abelenkpe]

4. Russia and China do not want

the West (US or NATO) to interfere in Syria. It's heartbreaking because you are right everyone knows Assad is a fucking ruthless murderer.

[leveymg]

6. Agree. Assad is a bad guy, but so are the ones who are murdering people to replace him.

This is a centuries old religious war. If Assad were to be forcibly removed, the Shi'ia minority led by the Ba'ath Party have a well-founded fear that the Sunni majority backed by the Saudis and the Turks would engage in genocide not unlike the Bosnia/Kosovo ethnic conflict, and probably worse.

[Cleita]

7. Who are the ones murdering people to replace him?

Are they sneaking into their bedrooms ninja style and murdering them? Or, are they or will they be meeting them in a battle like soldiers would an enemy. I need more information.

[leveymg]

11. Apparently, you didn't read about the suicide car bombings and assassinations.

That's terrorism. At least, that's what Americans call it when it happens to us. When the tactics of urban warfare are turned against those we don't like, it's "targeted killings." Or, just ignored.

[Cleita]

13. Apparently you have. Do you have links? n/t

[leveymg]

18. Here's the first five that came up when I Googled "Syria car bombings"

#
Syria Car Bombs Hit Damascus, Killing At Least 27
www.huffingtonpost.com/.../syria-car-bombs-damascus_n_1355312....Cached
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Mar 16, 2012 – DAMASCUS, Syria — Two suicide bombers detonated cars packed with explosives in near-simultaneous attacks on heavily guarded ...
#
Syria Uprising: Car Bomb Blasts Aleppo, Damascus Police Crush ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/.../car-bomb-syria-aleppo_n_1356648.htm...Cached
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Mar 18, 2012 – By Erika Solomon and Laila Bassam BEIRUT, March 18 (Reuters) - A car bomb hit Syria's second city Aleppo on Sunday, a day after blasts ...
#
Syria hit by third car bombing this weekend - Telegraph
www.telegraph.co.uk › News › World News › Middle East › Syria
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Mar 18, 2012 – On Saturday, twin car bombings killed 27 people and wounded 140 others in the heart of Syria's capital, the interior ministry said, blaming ...
#
Syrian city of Aleppo hit by car bomb | World news | guardian.co.uk
www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/18/syrian-city-hit-car-bombCached
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Mar 18, 2012 – Several people reported dead after explosion close to security office in country's second city.
#
Syria car bomb kills 2, injures 30 in Aleppo - Los Angeles Times
articles.latimes.com/2012/mar/.../la-fg-syria-aleppo-violence-201203...Cached
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Mar 18, 2012 – A car bomb explosion killed at least two people and injured 30 in the northern city of Aleppo, Syrian authorities said Sunday, raising fears of a ...
#

[Daniel537]

15. considering that the syrian dictatorship doesn't allow journalists into the country

how do you know it was the opposition that did it, and not some terrorist group trying to take advantage of the situation or even the Assad regime itself? What we can verify, by video and pictures, is Syrian soldiers killing civilians in the streets.

[Comrade Grumpy]

17. Here's Human Rights Watch on the Free Syrian Army

http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/03/20/open-letter-leaders-syrian-opposition

Open Letter to the Leaders of the Syrian Opposition
Regarding Human Rights Abuses by Armed Opposition Members
March 20, 2012

Related Materials:
Syria: Armed Opposition Groups Committing Abuses

We are writing to express our concern about increasing evidence, as described below, of kidnappings, the use of torture, and executions by armed Syrian opposition members and strongly urge you to work to ensure that all opposition members refrain from engaging in these unlawful practices.

Human Rights Watch has repeatedly documented and condemned widespread violations by Syrian government security forces and officials, including disappearances, use of torture and forced televised confessions, arbitrary detentions, indiscriminate shelling of neighborhoods, and deaths in custody under torture. Now, in the face of evidence of human rights abuses by armed opposition members, Human Rights Watch calls on the leadership of leading opposition groups including the Syrian National Council (SNC) and its Military Bureau to condemn such practices by the armed opposition and to work to prevent such unlawful practices.

While the protest movement in Syria was overwhelmingly peaceful until September 2011, since then Human Rights Watch has documented apparent crimes and other abuses committed by armed opposition elements. These crimes and abuses include the kidnapping and detention of security force members, individuals identified as members of government-supported militias (referred to locally as shabeeha), and individuals identified as government allies or supporters. They also include the use of torture and the execution of security force members and civilians. Some of the attacks targeting Shias and Alawites appear to be motivated by sectarianism.

Abuses of this nature, including torture, taking of hostages, and executions by armed opposition members, have also been documented by the UN-mandated Commission of Inquiry in its February 2012 report. In addition to concluding that armed members of the opposition have committed gross human rights abuses, the Commission’s report also references and appends documentation received from the Syrian government indicating that armed opposition members have kidnapped, killed, and disappeared civilians and security force members and displaced civilians.

We recognize that the perpetrators of these abuses are not always easy to identify nor do they necessarily belong to an organized command structure that follows the orders of the SNC or other opposition groups. Some reports received by Human Rights Watch indicate that in addition to armed groups with political motivations, criminal gangs, sometimes operating in the name of the opposition, may be carrying out some of these crimes.

Following the creation of the SNC Military Bureau on March 1, 2012, to liaise with, unify, and supervise armed opposition groups including the Free Syrian Army (FSA), Human Rights Watch calls on the Bureau to condemn and forbid these abuses in order to achieve its objective of ensuring members of the armed opposition comply with international humanitarian law and to meet its human rights obligations. Human Rights Watch also calls on members of the armed opposition that are not under the operational command of the SNC to desist from committing these rights abuses.

Kidnappings

A number of witnesses have told Human Rights Watch that non-state armed groups identifying themselves with the opposition have kidnapped both civilians and members of the security forces. “Marwan,” an Alawite resident of Karam el Zeitoun, Homs, told Human Rights Watch that on January 23 an armed gang entered his neighborhood and kidnapped his elderly parents from their home. He said,

When the armed gang went into the house, my father called me on the phone, but they grabbed the phone from him. I tried to call back and couldn’t reach him, so I called a neighbor, who told me they took my father and mother, put them in a car, and went south. The head of the gang, known as Abees, called me the next day. He told me they had my parents and asked for money and weapons as ransom. He told me my father was okay and was with them. I said I would give him what he wanted, but that he had to let me hear my father’s voice. I spoke with him, and he noticed I was crying. He said: “Don’t cry. Don’t be afraid. I am not afraid. This is what God has written.” My father had the Quran as his weapon. He said, “Don’t worry and don’t listen to them.” After that they cut the line. I tried calling back a number of times but the phone was closed. The next day I kept trying; Abees answered and was swearing. He said to stop calling, and that they had killed my parents. After that we saw a video on YouTube showing their dead bodies. We have not received the bodies back despite numerous pleas. They took them because they want money. Myself, I am a supporter of the government, but this is a sectarian crime, and it has to do with money. My father had nothing to do with the government.

“Mazen,” a Syrian activist, told Human Rights Watch that members of the Abu Issa group in Taftanaz, a village north of Saraqeb, Idlib, told him that they had kidnapped individuals who worked with the government and tortured three of them to death.

“Samih,” another Syrian activist who said he has worked closely with the FSA in Saraqeb, told Human Rights Watch that while he was there he saw residents of Sarqeb complain to the FSA on more than one occasion that the Al-Nur battalion, a Salafist group that is not part of the official FSA structure, was kidnapping civilians for ransom. He said, “The people in Saraqeb were fed up with the battalion for doing this and that they asked the FSA to intervene” and that “Sometimes people would come to me when this happened and I would talk to members of the FSA on their behalf or I would direct them to local FSA leaders.”

“Samih” also told Human Rights Watch that members of the FSA were kidnapping soldiers:

They would kidnap them and ask their parents to pay a ransom to let them go. One time, the FSA in Saraqeb kidnapped a colonel from the Presidential Guard. In return, the military kidnapped two children from Saraqeb. The children were 15 and 16 years old. I was working with the FSA members and local government officials to negotiate a trade. At one point, the family members of the two kids called me pleading that I speed up the negotiations as much as possible. They said that they got a call at home from the captors and that they could hear their kids being tortured. They told them their kids would be released when the FSA released the colonel. We were able to negotiate a trade for the colonel and the kids have now been released.

“Mazen” said he spoke to a member of the Syrian security forces who was kidnapped and detained by opposition fighters in Saraqeb. He said,

The detainee told me he was a First Assistant in the National Hospital in Aleppo... I asked the revolutionaries to bring him to me so I could speak to him. He said that opposition fighters had beaten him with electrical cables and on the head... and he was blindfolded. He said they let him speak to his parents...and that they asked them for money to release him.

The media coordinator for another FSA group operating in Homs, Al Farouq batallion, told Human Rights Watch that the battalion is not kidnapping soldiers but detaining them during military operations. He said,

We are not kidnapping soldiers. During an armed confrontation, soldiers surrounded by the FSA are surrendering themselves to the Al-Farouq battalion, so we are capturing and not kidnapping the soldiers. After capturing the soldiers, the FSA calls the government to negotiate the terms of their release but they refuse to negotiate simply because they don’t care about the captured soldiers. The captives are placed in a room not a prison. The room has one door with a lock, but no windows. The Al-Farouq battalion is treating them very well.

In addition, Human Rights Watch is deeply concerned about the FSA kidnappings of Iranian nationals, some of whom the FSA has confirmed are civilians. On January 26 the FSA Al Farouq battalion claimed responsibility for capturing seven Iranian nationals, five of whom they allege are members of the Iranian armed forces. In an interview on February 22, 2012, with Human Rights Watch, the Al-Farouq battalion media coordinator explained that the other two individuals detained are civilians but that they were detained at the point of capture because a Persian speaker was unavailable to confirm this until later. When asked why the detainees identified as civilians had not yet been released, he would not comment.

In tandem with its announcement of their capture, the battalion released video footage of the five detainees that they identified as members of the Iranian armed forces. In the video, one of the captives, Sajjad Amirian, explains that the five were following orders from Syrian security forces to shoot at civilians. On January 27 Syrian state media, SANA, reported that Iran's MAPNA Group, an Iranian power company in Syria, said that the on camera statements were made under duress and untrue, and that the five individuals were in fact Iranian engineers. In an interview with Iranian state-owned Press TV, one of the detainee’s family members, Mehdi Sohrabi, spoke out against their detention, insisting that they are all engineers. The Islamic Republic News Agency reported that all seven men were released on February 10, but on February 15 indicated that the report was false and that the men remained in custody. The Al-Farouq battalion media coordinator told Human Rights Watch on March 16 that the seven detainees were still being held in Syria and that they were in good health.

According to media reports on February 1, members of the FSA also kidnapped 11 Iranian nationals traveling to Damascus on a pilgrimage tour, claiming that they had connections to the Iranian Revolutionary Guards. The FSA Abu el Fida battalion announced their release on February 6 following Turkish mediation efforts. An additional 11 Iranian pilgrims reportedly kidnapped on January 26 are still believed to be detained.

Torture

Human Rights Watch has reviewed at least 25 videos on YouTube in which Syrian security forces or their alleged supporters are filmed confessing to crimes under circumstances in which it appears that their statements were made under duress. At least 18 of these videos show footage of detained individuals who are bruised, bleeding, or show other signs of physical abuse.

In one video, three individuals described by the accompanying text as shabeeha are asked what their names are, where they are from, their religion, and what they are doing in Tal Kalakh. In the video they are shown on their knees during this interrogation, their hands bound. The face of one is clearly badly bruised. They all identify themselves as Shia, from el Rabwie, Homs, and “confess” that they were killing peaceful protesters.

In another video bearing the emblem of the FSA Khaled Bin Al Walid battalion, an unnamed individual described by the accompanying text as a shabeeha member is interrogated. He appears bound and his face is bruised. At the end of the video, he denies an allegation against him and the interrogator calls him a liar, tells the videographer to stop shooting, and directs someone off camera to bring him the “electricity machine”.

All individuals in the custody of the FSA and other opposition forces, including members of the Syrian security forces and shabeeha, should be treated humanely in accordance with international human rights standards.

Executions

Other video footage reviewed by Human Rights Watch and information received in interviews indicates that members of the FSA have executed individuals suspected of crimes against the opposition in their custody.

One video, released on YouTube on February 4, shows an individual hung from a tree by his neck in front of several armed fighters. Commentary indicates that he is a shabeeha fighter captured and executed by the FSA Kafr Takharim battalion on January 22, 2012. In a second video, which appears to have been released by the FSA Al Farouq battalion on YouTube, an individual identified as a member of Air Force Intelligence based in Homs is interrogated and confesses to shooting at protesters. The detainee’s face is very badly beaten, cut, and bruised, and he appears disoriented. Written statements accompanying the video state that it was filmed before his execution, and the interrogator in the video, amidst curses, asks him for his final request before dying.

In a separate incident, the Al Farouq battalion media coordinator told Human Rights Watch about the execution of an Air Force Intelligence member. He said, “The death of the member of the Air Force Intelligence was an act of revenge because the branch is responsible for horrific killings in Homs.”

In light of these reports, we strongly urge you to publicly condemn kidnappings, the use of torture, and executions by armed Syrian opposition members and to work to ensure that all opposition members do not engage in these unlawful practices.



Sincerely,



Sarah Leah Whitson

Executive Director

Middle East & North Africa division





Cc:



Colonel Riad al-Asaad

Commander

Free Syrian Army

[Daniel537]

20. How are attacks on Syrian security forces "human rights abuses"?

Of course their going to attack security forces, their slaughtering people by the thousands. HRW is way off on that one.

[Comrade Grumpy]

22. Torture, kidnapping, and extrajudicial executions are NOT human rights abuses?

If they're done by the side you're cheering for? Really?

How about car bombs? Those cool, too?

[Daniel537]

24. What exactly is an "extrajudicial execution" in these circumstances?

If you are armed and fighting for a totalitarian dictatorship, don't be surprised if the armed resistance isn't going to read you your Miranda rights. Honestly it seems you have no idea of the hell people have to go through to rid them self of a dictatorship.

[Comrade Grumpy]

32. I think lynching somebody would probably qualify.

But "extrajudicial execution" is common human rights-speak for murder.

You don't have to excuse atrocities by the guys you like in order to criticize the guy you don't like.

The Assad regime is committing war crimes--that's pretty clear. But so, it appears, is the FSA, and all those bands of sectarian death squads who are also busily at work.

To excuse war crimes and human rights abuses by one side takes you down a very slippery slope.

At this point, Syria is in a savage sectarian civil war. It's going to be a fight to the death. And it's way to simplistic to say it's "the people against the dictator." Assad has substantial support, even now.

[Daniel537]

33. I don't excuse anything, i merely recognize that people who have suffered for years

under a totalitarian dictatorship usually don't tend to think about how best to practice democracy when they are constantly under fire and trying to rid themselves of a mass-murderer. I don't think that automatically makes them "death squads". Just imagine yourself in their shoes for a second. And I have no doubt Assad has support from certain sectors of the population, but so did Hitler and Stalin. Even if 80% of Syrians supported Assad doesn't mean they have the right to oppress and kill the other 20%.

[Cleita]

40. Unfortunately, war is not played by rules, however, it was the peaceful demonstrators

that were fired upon and killed first. I hope the Assad military didn't think that the rebels would fight back?

[cali]

9. by ALL reports there are plenty of regular people protesting- and dying

[leveymg]

16. But, you didn't read that most of the victims of sniper attacks that started all this were policemen

during the initial phase of the uprising in Daraa in late March to early April 2011. There's footage from that period of snipers who were most definitely not regime troops and policemen shooting back at them. After some weeks of being bloodied, discipline broke down and troops and police started shooting demonstrators. That doesn't excuse official violence against protesters, it just adds a much broader picture of why people have been killing each other on both sides.

[Daniel537]

21. Shooting at policemen is perfectly legitimate in an armed conflict.

Its the Assad regime that decided to shoot not just the armed opposition, but the entire opposition, women and children included.

[leveymg]

27. There hadn't been any shooting until then. Not for years.

If someone wanted to spark a civil war, that was certainly the ticket. Go back and read what happened the last time Shi'ia-Sunni war broke out in Syria. Google: "Syria Long Campaign of Terror"

[Daniel537]

30. Who said they wanted to spark a civil war?

Maybe they just wanted to get the regime out of power. How else are they supposed to do that? Syria is a one-party dictatorship with no freedom of speech, press or an independent judiciary. Kind of hard to change the govt. in a peaceful way, don't you think?

[Boojatta]

23. "that started all this"

Was that the first time that anybody in Syria ever shot at police, or shot at soldiers?

[leveymg]

28. See immediately above.

[Daniel537]

12. Its sickening that this is even worth arguing.

But some people just love reflexively defending a dictatorship as long as its viewed as anti-Israel or anti-American or anti-Imperialist. Give me a fucking break. A mass-murdering thug is a mass-murdering thug. And no amount of "we've done bad things too" is going to change that.

[Cleita]

26. You are very right.

Also, the fact that it's very hard to get some hard facts because of the banishment and killing of journalists, makes any defense of this regime really suspicious.

[leveymg]

29. Please don't confuse context with defense of that regime. My biggest problem is that this won't

work to get rid of Assad unless Turkey, NATO and the US get into it. And, then all hell is going to break loose across the entire region, and potentially the world. The outcome will just be far worse suffering for everyone involved.

[Daniel537]

31. All hell is going to break loose across the world because Assad is overthrown?

I doubt it, but hopefully we'll get to find out, since i think the world will be better off without Assad.

[leveymg]

34. Fortunately, Clapper has a better handle of things there than you do. Here's what he said about

the movement of Sunni Jihadists in Syria and how aiding the SLA to take down the Syrian Army will likely end up reinforcing al-Qaeda and potentially giving Jihadis access to Syrian chemical weapons. It's part of the reason the US hasn't providing arms to the opposition.

Read this, please:

#
Director of National Intelligence says Al-Qaeda infiltrating Syrian ...
www.jihadwatch.org/.../director-of-national-intelligence-says-al-qaed...Cached
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Feb 18, 2012 – Weblog about jihad theology and ideology, correcting popular ... Members of al-Qaeda have infiltrated Syrian opposition groups, and likely ... The remarks by Director of National Intelligence James R. Clapper are the most ...
#
Unknown Islamist group claims suicide attacks in Syria
english.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/29/197781.htmlCached
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Feb 29, 2012 – Shami urged Syrians to take part in jihad, or holy war. ... On February 16, U.S. spy chief James Clapper said that al-Qaeda's branch in Iraq ...
#
US official says al-Qaeda involved in Syria - Middle East - Al ...
www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/.../201221794018300979.htmlCached
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Feb 17, 2012 – James Clapper voices concern that al-Qaeda fighters may have inserted ... that a number of Iraqi jihadists went to Syria," Adnan al-Assadi said, ...
#
US Military: Thousands of troops needed to secure Syrian chemical ...
https://iamiranaware.wordpress.com/.../us-military-thousands-of-troo...Cached
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Feb 23, 2012 – The conclusion comes from a military analysis of options for Syria ... Director of National Intelligence James Clapper told Congress last week.
#

[Daniel537]

39. And fortunately for Clapper he doesn't have to live inside Syria.

So since according to him there's already Al-Qaida there, why not take out 2 birds with 1 stone? Depose Assad and then target the Al-Qaida remnants? Somehow i have a feeling you still wouldn't like that.

[Comrade Grumpy]

36. All hell could well break loose across the Middle East.

Do you understand the nature of the sectarian divide within Syria and in the region as a whole? Do you see how the Sunni Saudis and the Gulf State dictatorships are lining up to support the rebels? Do you see how Shia Iran, Shia Iraq, and Hezbollah are lining up to support the Assad regime? Now, throw a NATO intervention into the mix. That's a recipe for prolonged warfare in the region that could make the killing so far look like a rugby scrum.

Do you remember the good old days of sectarian strife in Iraq? That could go region-wide.

it's a cold calculus, but in terms of human lives spared, the region may well be better off if Assad prevails (for now).

[Daniel537]

37. "Could"

Does that also mean it could not? Only one way to find out. I personally don't think its good to leave Assad in power merely because it "may" be good for the region.

[leveymg]

101. "We had to destroy the village to save the village."

Before you endorse a regional religious war regardless of the consequences approach, I suggest you read some more history. Start with Iraq, and work your way backwards to Afghanistan and the U.S. arming and training of the Mujahadin and subsequent support of bin Laden during the 1980s and 1990s in Bosnia and Kosovo. That worked out real well, didn't it?

[Cleita]

35. In this information age, we cannot sit back and watch a country kill its own people.

I don't necessarily mean sending troops, but the free world will have to come to the aid of the the people who are being killed and the innocent civilians caught up in the rebellion so that they can defend themselves and the women and children who are their families. Tribal warfare in the Middle East has never been easy. One only needs to watch the movie "Lawrence of Arabia" to get it. If we had the same communication of information back when the Nazis were killing Jews in concentration camps, would we have stood back and watched it? I hope not.

[leveymg]

38. Unfortunately, it's not as simple as that. The murdering is on all sides, including the outside

forces who seem to right in the middle of it.

[Cleita]

45. This is war.

It's not good for living things. However, murder and killing on a battlefield in defense are different things. If you ever read the Iliad about the first recorded war in history in which many nations took part, you will see all the elements of every war since then with atrocities being committed on both sides and the outside forces that took sides.

[Fool Count]

56. Some "would have even opposed"? Opposed what? It was not even on the table then.

No one even suggested "helping the Jews in the camps" during the WWII. And no one helped them.
What alternative history did you read?

[Cleita]

58. If you had read what I said, it was because people didn't have the communication we have today,

like camera cell phones that can transmit what's going on as it happens, not to mention blogs and websites. Most Germans didn't know what was happening in the camps let alone the rest of the world not under the Nazi's thumb. After the war it was a year before the general public started getting information about the holocaust. I was just a kid, but my neighbor and playmate's family, who were Jewish, didn't know and I remember when they learned about it how shocked and devastated they were. Many Jewish families, who had lost track of relatives during the Nazi occupations and the war, really thought that their relatives would be found if still alive. They assumed the horrors of war would claim many of them but they were so shocked when they learned about what had really happened to them because although they knew things were bad under the Nazis, they didn't know how awful it was.

[Fool Count]

61. The only reason you didn't know about it was that your rulers didn't want you to know

about it. Do you think the powers-that-be were also in the dark? They knew everything very well,
they just didn't want to do anything about it. Same thing now, everything you think you "know"
is what you allowed to know by your masters, so that you can give them your consent.

[Cleita]

67. How old are you?

We didn't have TV back then. We saw news reels in the theater and the news was usually a month old. We didn't really have long distance telephone to Europe. Only a few had it. Those kind of communications were done by telegraph. All we had was radio and the print newspapers and mags. Germany had so locked up communications out of their country and occupations that there was no journalism practiced there anymore. Those who did were murdered so there was no information leaked by those who might have known. No one really knew until the allies marched into Germany in 1945 and found the camps and the few starved survivors. Rent an old Marlon Brando movie, if you can find it, called "The Young Lions". It depicts the Americans finding one of the camps. No one really knew. Ignorance is a terrible waste when it doesn't have to be that way.

[ellisonz]

84. This "fool" is no longer among us...

Check the PPR'oni

[ellisonz]

83. The US/British/French/Canadian position was that winning the war was quickest way to help.

You clearly do not know your history in this regard...

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Righteous_Among_the_Nations

[green juice]

41. How in bloody hell do you know this for sure?

Did Hillary tell you? "They" are killing journalists, left and right. Hmm...wonder why? Maybe because they are seeing what's reallygoing down.

[Daniel537]

44. Buy a first-class ticket to Homs and then get back to us.

[Cleita]

49. Looks like poster is no longer with us.

I guess he won't be able to report on what he found in Homs.

[WillyT]

51. I Had NO Idea That "Santorum" Was Green...

Live and learn.

[Cleita]

53. Yep!

[Daniel537]

52. Aww, too bad.

I would have imagined what his first dispatch would have been...

"Everything is fine. Its all Israel's fault."

This of course, with a random Ba'athist stooge in the background.

[Cleita]

54. You've got it.

[WillyT]

46. Yep... K & R !!!

DU Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002529767

[Daniel537]

47. Its all fake! Globalist, NWO lies!

Only the US and the Zionist running-dog Israel kill people! Never good anti-imperialist Ba'ath Arab Socialists like Comrade Assad!

[Fool Count]

48. Repeating anti-Syrian propaganda for a millionth time

doesn't make it "a fact". Just stating the obvious.

[Daniel537]

50. lol, the only anti-Syrian here is Bashar Assad, who is slaughtering Syrians.

I would love to know when it became chic among some self-proclaimed liberals to support mass-murdering thugs?

[Fool Count]

57. LOL. When Galileo said "And still it moves". That's when it became chic to not

unquestionably acquiesce to ideology and propaganda of the rulers, but to question and oppose
it instead. Try it some time.

[Cleita]

60. The man is murdering his own people. He started it. He started a civil war.

Why don't you have any information in your profile? What are you afraid of and why are you supporting a murdering dictator?

[Fool Count]

63. Keep repeating the lies hoping that they come true. I am not afraid of anything. And I am not

supporting a "murdering dictator". I am supporting a legitimate government of Syria and right
of Syrian people to self-determination. You are supporting a murderous radical terrorists
funded by enemies of Syria and its people. Why?

[Cleita]

68. Well, now we know who you are.

Thanks for the info.

[pinboy3niner]

82. And now, "He's dead, Jim" (finally!) :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=239751&sub=trans

[Cleita]

87. Yeppers.

What a tool.

[Alamuti Lotus]

97. don't you think that's in poor taste?

Allegedly you're all for freedom and democracy and all those other nice-sounding cliches, yet still gloating over the fact that somebody you disagree with has been silenced and disappeared. There's not an once of hypocrisy in that, don't worry.

[pinboy3niner]

108. Did you read why the poster was PPR'd?

9 hidden posts out of 298 on DU3, verbal attacks against fellow DU members, consensus of the MIR Team that this is a Malicious Disruptor.

There's nothing hypocritical about being glad to be rid af a malicious disruptor. That goes beyond mere disagreement.

[Dokkie]

96. Big mistake

Disagree with these guys and you will be tomb stoned. Wesley Clark stated their agenda t take out 7 ME countries, and I think they have gotten all 7 except Syria and Iran.

Lets hope this doesn't go to far for em to kill my account. Sorry I dared disagree with the Kill Syria Brigade here on DU, god knows those people were silent when Saudi Arabia and Bahrain were suppressing their own Arab springs.

[cali]

55. Propaganda? For fuck's sake

Every reputable NGO who's assessed the situation states that the state forces are indiscriminately killing. HRW, AI, the UN.

[Fool Count]

59. There are so many propaganda memes in this one sentence, I don't know where to start.

"Reputable NGOs"? What are those? "Assessed"? How? "Indiscriminately killing"? That one alone
is a dead giveaway of the real agenda behind the propaganda. Give me a break. It is so fucking
transparent, the only natural reaction of any critical mind is to puke. That so many people buy
that crap, again and again, boggles my mind.

[RZM]

62. Look Fool-iyo, I offer you a 'privet'

But you've got to stop with this constant defense of Syria. It's not going to fly with the Western left. We don't give a shit that the Kremlin and Assad family are good buds going back decades. Assad's on the wrong side of history. He's a repressive POS, plain and simple. It's time for something else there. Get over it.

[Fool Count]

66. Lies are lies. Just because you repeat them constantly doesn't make them true.

Wrong side, right side - it's all relative depending on where you stand. From where I stand US is
on the wrong side of history, and is headed for its dustbin with a supersonic speed too. You like
hitting that dustbin, that's your choice.

[Cleita]

71. You are repeating the lies about this.

Are you Russian or one of Assad's toadies.

[RZM]

72. I'm going to go out on a limb here

And say that Assad reaches the 'dustbin' a whole lot sooner than the US does.

[Fool Count]

76. Sooner-later, it doesn't matter, what's few more years or even decades in the large

scheme of things? So you take Assad to the dustbin first, then Iran, then North Korea, then Russia or
I don't know who else, then what? That makes you happy? US is finished, done, irrelevant, obsolete.
It belongs in that dustbin already and it is headed there just as surely as the day follows the night.
There is nothing you can do about it. Get used to it.

[RZM]

79. So the US 'belongs in the dustbin already?'

What does that mean exactly? What would dustbin status for the US entail exactly?

[pinboy3niner]

89. Fool Count is in the dustbin...PPRoni'd, that is :)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=239751&sub=trans

[RZM]

91. I saw that in a meta thread

Good riddance. There are plenty of liberal Russians who fit in here much better than him/her.

They won't be missed.

[inna]

92. .

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=545462

[joshcryer]

103. Thanks! I'm not one to check profiles that often...

...was going to respond to some of their posts in this thread.

Incidentally the last post that I had hidden was responding to them (after they said something hateful to me). Couldn't help myself...

[cali]

98. you are so right. why you're so stuck on repeating lies is a mystery to me

actually, dearie, it's not at all a mystery. your post makes it quite clear that you're ideologically blinded by your biases. And yes, the U.S. is headed for the dust bin of history- as, my dear, every nation is. So what? Oh, and who to believe? The ideologically blinded or my own eyes. Denying the FACT that Assad is murdering thousands of his fellow citizens is a insanely stupid as denying that men walked on the moon. Exactly as fucking brainless.

[inna]

88. oy.

got another progressive ts'd, happy happy joy joy??

fuck this shit.



(not addressing RZM; this is re. this entire fucked up thread.)




you know, really; fuck this. to say that the current DU is a sad fucking mockery of its former beautiful self is an understatement.

[RZM]

90. Please . . . the poster did nothing but pimp the Russian Federation

That's a shitty, authoritarian regime BTW. We don't need that here. If being progressive means supporting oppressive regimes, count me out.

[inna]

93. enlighten... wtf does any of this have to do with the russian federation??

except perhaps that you seem to be bizarrely preoccupied with the topic??


based on several comments i read recently, at least; i might be completely wrong, of course!

[RZM]

95. Type 'fool count' into the DU search

Everytime I encountered them, they were extolling Russian and Syrian 'democracy' and shitting on the West. No amount of facts could convince them that Russia and Syira are more despotic than the US. In case you didn't know, Syria has been a key ally of the Kremlin for decades, going back to Soviet days.

This thread is my personal favorite. Here the Fool-meister argued that a Russian journalist's criticisms of Kremlin policies were akin to Napoleon's invasion of Russia in 1812. You honestly can't make this shit up.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002277962

BTW, check out their transparency page. There's some thinly-veiled pro-United Russia stuff there too:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=profile&uid=239751&sub=trans

[joshcryer]

104. Yes, his defense of Putin and the hateful regard for Russian protesters...

...told me he was no "progressive."

[Odin2005]

65. Why don't you give evidence instead of snark?

[Fool Count]

70. Evidence? For fucks sake. You have the whole history behind you. Look at it. Carefully.

What other evidence do you need? Head meet rake. Again. How stupid the western public is?

[Odin2005]

74. Typical you, just keep on snarking without evidence.

You sound like some Stalinist from the 50s ranting about "mad running-dog imperialists".

Why hasn't this troll been served pizza, yet?

[NYC_SKP]

105. HEY! Drool Fool Count! YOU are a PATHETIC LOSER!!!

And I am so glad that you have been PPRed.

What a hateful ass, I hope you read this....

[RZM]

80. I will say this. I don't think that such obvious anti-American sentiment really belongs here

Opposing US policies is one thing. Wishing for a collapse of the country is not what we're about here. We're trying to rejuvenate this country, not cheer its downfall.

[Odin2005]

64. I remember seeing the genocide in Bosnia and Rwanda on the news as a kid...

It made me a life-long Liberal Interventionist. Assad needs his ass kicked, the "West is Evil" types may hate me, but I don't really give a damn.

[Daniel537]

73. +1

[Vehl]

81. +1000 I have experienced this in my own life.

I totally Agree.

The whole "The Syrian protestors are western stooges" claim is beyond ridiculous. Asad is a dictator!!! I wonder what part of "Dictator" those who support Assad's regime do not understand? The argument put forth by those who are against any form of interventionism in Syria sound more and more like Bushian logic. Similar to the "Either you are with us, or against us", they claim that any uprising in non-pro western nation is a western plot, while those in pro-western nations are legitimate struggles.

As you correctly pointed out, what's happening in Syria is No different from what happened in Egypt or Libya. Similar stuff also happens in Tibet, Srilanka, Burma, Darfur..the list goes on.

Its naive to think that all protests will be easily defined in clear-cut terms.

As a kid, and as a person of Srilankan origin (Albeit the minority) I had to dodge bullets and bombs every day of my life, for years. Some of my earliest memories are of cowering in the cellar of my grandparents house, hoping the helicopter Gunships piloted by the Srilankan Army will not shoot in my direction...or that one of the tens of thousands of artillery shells fired indiscriminately against centers of civilian population(cities etc) will not find its way into the cellar. I know what the people in the besieged towns in Syria are going through...because i've gone through it. I also know how most countries turn a blind eye...because some powers that be support the corrupt/dictatorial governments. Years later...in the late 2000s I heard these same arguments even as nearly 20000 civilians were killed in Srilanka by the military...that it is an "internal matter, and other nations should not interfere".

Amnesty international/Red Cross/Doctors without borders protested those killings..just as they are protesting these, but I see history repeating, and more people dying..all because we are too damn isolationist. The same happens in Darfur, in Tibet, and in some African/South American countries. My experiences have made me a liberal democrat, but an interventionist one. I will not be the one who sits by and takes on the "out of sight, out of mind" attitude a considerable number of others seem to take. Maybe if they were in the boots of the Syrian people, they will change their opinion in a jiffy.

[Ken Burch]

85. Has anyone here actually DENIED that Assad was killing people? n/t.

[cali]

100. quite a few people here have defended his killing people.

And as we know, that's frequently more pernicious than out and out denial. it's not unlike defending the Israeli attack on Gaza, Operation Cast Lead.

[inna]

86. what is this crap, now?... missed the context

[Taverner]

94. What do you propose?

[cali]

99. Nothing. That's not the point of the OP. I'm just

biased toward the factual and the shit people are making up disgust the hell out of me.

[Taverner]

106. Understood

I'm sick of it too.

But when confronted with either side, I ask this, and no one has an answer...

[cali]

107. I don't think there is an answer- at least I don't think there is an answer

that doesn't fall into a moral morass.

[ieoeja]

109. Because people were predicting a Civil War in Syria long *before* the Arab Spring.

And those predications, *before* the Arab Spring, were based on the uneasy truce between Hezzbolah, the Palestinians and Syria. Given that, I should think skepticism in others should be understandable even if you do not feel that way yourself.

To answer your question, it is *not* unfathomable that this is a popular revolt. On the other hand, it is also not unfathomable that this is a terrorist revolt.


Fact: Assad married a British woman and promised a warming of relationship with Israel and the West as he returned to Syria following his father's death.

Fact: it never happened.

Theory: the generally accepted theory ever since has been that any attempt by Assad to normalize relationships with Israel and the West would lead to an armed conflict between Syria with the Palestinians and Hezzbolah. So Assad was stuck.

Fact: there has been an extensive terrorist organization in Syria for decades with an uneasy truce with Syria.

Fact: there has been an extensive Palestinian presence in Syria for decades with an useasy truce with Syria.

Question: what are those terrorists and those Palestinians doing now?


I have never seen that question answered. Until I do, I have no choice but to remain wary about this supposed revolt against repression.


For that matter the replies to this thread seem to be taking three sides of the issue. I see people claiming the skeptics are fueled by anti-Americanism as Syria is aligned with Russia. And at least one poster proving that claim.

Then you have others claiming the skeptics are fueled by pro-Americanism and opposed to a popular revolt that might be more anti-American than the existing regime. And you have me proving *that* claim by expressing my skepticism based on a belief that Assad wants an end to the conflict with Israel and the West. Frankly, I think most Arab leadership wanted that, but were trapped by their own propaganda (or by that of the radical clerics).


For the record:

- I opposed the Egyptian revolt because Egypt, as repressive as it may have been, was the least repressive Arab nation and most culturally advanced in terms of equal rights for women, etc. Today, I live in fear for a couple of female friends of mine in Egypt.

- I supported the Lybian revolt because ... Ghaddafi. 'Nough said.

- And I got a tremendous laugh out of the one poster who spent weeks cheering the Lybian revolt and claiming the West supported Ghaddafi based on the West not intervening to help the revolt ... then 24 hours later was cheering Ghaddafi as a brave stalwart resisting the imperialist faux revolt once the West did intervene!