"Knee Defender" leads to passenger fight and diverted plane

[KurtNYC]

The spat began on United Airlines flight 1462 because one passenger was using the Knee Defender, a $21.95 lock that attaches to a tray table and jams the reclining mechanism of the seat in front.

The male passenger, seated in a middle seat of row 12, used the device to stop the woman in front of him reclining while he was on his laptop, according to a law enforcement official who spoke on condition of anonymity.

A flight attendant asked him to remove the device and he refused. The woman then stood up, turned around and threw a cup of water at him, the official said.
...
Both passengers had been sitting in United’s “economy plus” section, which advertises four more inches of legroom.

http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/aug/26/plane-diverted-as-passengers-fight-over-seat-reclining

Both are 48 years-old but neither had a parent or guardian with them (snark).

[msanthrope]

1. Sounds like a match made in heaven! nt

[KurtNYC]

2. Speaking of a "match", my favorite is still these twins...

A New York-to-Florida flight made an emergency landing in North Carolina after two passengers – twin brothers – got into a loud and ugly fistfight over possession of the arm rest between their seats.

The situation aboard JetBlue Flight 385 escalated into a midair emergency on Sunday when the brothers went from arguing to throwing wild punches, witnesses told investigators.

A flight attendant offered to place them in separate seats – but they cursed her and continued to brawl, the witnesses said.

http://nypost.com/2004/03/23/tussling-twins-force-jet-to-land/

[msanthrope]

3. Their mother must be so proud! nt

[KurtNYC]

4. I just hope her womb had four arm rests!

[MindPilot]

5. Do passengers have any legal recourse?

If some DMF does something stupid on an airliner that causes a delay, can the other passengers sue?

It has never actually happened to me, but I think I would be pretty pissed if I missed some important event because somebody deliberately caused the flight to divert.

[jberryhill]

11. I wouldn't see why not

It could be argued that you had accepted the risk of a flight delay, which can occur for various reasons.

However, where the delay is directly attributable to the intentional conduct of another person on the flight, I don't see why you would not be able to. You would have to show some consequences other than being "pretty pissed", though.

[hughee99]

30. I'd think you wouldn't have much recourse against the airline, but might against the assholes.

Though that may be what you meant.

[SheilaT]

118. Airlines specifically do not guarantee their arrival times.

And never have.

Former airline employee here.

[MineralMan]

6. I hate it when the person in front of me reclines

the seat. In response, I never, ever recline my seat. I figure other people hate it too, so I don't do it. That's my activism on airlines. I don't recline. I can sit 5 degrees more upright for a few hours. No big deal, really.

Sun Country, though, the airline I fly the most, has disabled all reclining seats in coach. I like that.

[madamesilverspurs]

9. The guy in the seat in front of mine

reclined his seat fully and without warning about halfway through the flight. My tray table slammed into my belly and effectively pinned me to the seat. I tapped on the side of his seat and asked him if he could put his seatback up a bit; he ignored me. The flight attendant did persuade him to put the seat up just long enough for me to fold up my tray table; then he was allowed to again recline fully. The attendant explained that "he paid for the seat, he's allowed to recline it". I explained that I had paid for my seat, too, unaware that my own comfort wasn't guaranteed. The guy in front just snorted at that, and refused to adjust his seat even when my seat mate needed to get up to use the lavatory.

[msanthrope]

17. I had that happen to me. So I switched seats with my then toddler, and put her shoes back on. nt

[ecstatic]

40. Good one!

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

89. Your creativity is appreciated

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

32. The guy was a piece of shit and a bully

I'm sure he was a big right-winger too.

[Man from Pickens]

147. It's amazing how often

... I accidentally kick/knee/elbow reclined seats in front of me. Without fail, at least once every 15 seconds. And I get so careless with liquids too, in such a confined space.

[MattBaggins]

155. should have kicked it

repeatedly

the entire flight

[Action_Patrol]

10. Agreed

I don't do it either. Ever. I travel all the time and there's just no room for it. I fully support the disabling of the recline function.

[Warpy]

13. Not only that, but the small amount they do recline

only manages to put more pressure on the lumbar spine, not a good place for me.

People who use those things are generally pains in the ass, anyway.

If I were a very tall man, seriously crowded even when seats are upright, you bet I'd get one of those things. I would suggest to Ms. "I do this because I can" drink thrower that we change seats. Then I would recline.

[Ms. Toad]

57. Some of are only trying to avoid triggering additional chronic pain.

That additional recline makes the difference for me between triggering a month long episode of pain that requires being on a heating pad 24/7 & merely a short term increase in pain.

[Warpy]

69. You'd have much better luck with ice

Heating pads feel nice but give you rebound pain when you get off them. Ice numbs it out for hours.

[Ms. Toad]

88. Whether ice or pain works depends on the source of the pain.

In my case, I have had a muscle spasm of unidentifiable origin for 3 decades. It never disappears completely, but if I pay attention to how I sit, I can keep it down to a background level that I can live with. When a cycle of increased spasm starts (triggered reliably by certain chairs - including unreclined airplane seats), coaxing the spasm to cycle down is what decreases the pain. Heat does that - cold does not. Because of what it is that is causing the pain, heat does not give rebound pain - and cold only exacerbates it because when the muscles tense in reaction to the cold, it increases the spasm activity. http://saveyourself.ca/articles/ice-heat-confusion.php

Thanks for trying to help - but I spent the first decade and a half of living with this spasm visiting numerous physical therapists and pain management clinics. None of what they offered (including - off the top of my head - ice, short term heat, traction, TENS, cortisone blocks, massage, anti-inflammatory meds, and muscle relaxers) provided any long term relief. Extended heat coaxes the spasm to relax. It takes about a month once the spasm starts its vicious cycle of increased pain causing the muscle to tighten, causing increased pain, etc. But it is the only thing that does, short of one muscle relaxer which brings with it both physical and emotional depression. If I sound cranky it is because I run into so many people who are sure they know how to manage my pain better than I do, including the last physical therapist I ran into for a completely unrelated reason who set off set off the last month long spasm increase because she refused to listen when I told her that what she insisted that I do would set it off. Needless to say, she was fired.

[mainer]

90. Being able to shift angles every hour really does make a difference for back pain.

It's being in one position too long that hurts.

I've never had to recline my seat (except to sleep on long flights) but I agree that those with chronic back pain may need to move their seat around every so often. Not everyone who reclines is a jerk. Some are just in pain.

[Ms. Toad]

92. For me it is not being in one position too long -

it is literally the angle of the seat. Vertical is a killer. 45 degrees from vertical is best. I'm obviously not going to get ideal on an airplane, but I need to be able to recline it as much as possible, as soon as possible, for as long as possible, to avoid triggering a month long increase in spasm.

[sharp_stick]

20. I'll usually block a recline with my knees

and then claim the cheapass airline seat he's sitting in is probably broken. I find fewer and fewer people actually ever bother to recline at all.

[kcass1954]

22. Same here. i snooze when I fly.

And I can do that without "reclining" the seat.

[Ms. Toad]

55. For me it is a big deal.

Without the ability to recline my seat, I'm in for a month of pain & 24/7 heating pads for most of that time to coax it back to the baseline level. The extra few degrees doesn't solve the problem, but it does the difference between triggering a month long episode of acute pain & a few hours of increased pain. So for some of us, it is a big deal.

[MineralMan]

94. I'm sorry to hear that. I assume that you make certain

the airlines you fly on have seats that recline. More and more airlines are opting away from that.

If the person in front of me reclines their seat, I don't say anything about that. As I said in my post, my reaction to this is simply not to recline my seat, so as not to annoy the person behind me. If you need to recline your seat, I won't object. I'll deal with my own discomfort.

[Ms. Toad]

96. I have learned which seats don't recline, so I avoid them

(The back row of seats, and any seats which would recline into an exit row). I have not yet run into any airlines that do not recline at all, so I was not aware of that phenomenon.

[MineralMan]

98. Many of the budget-priced airlines have

seating that is closer than other airlines. Their seats do not recline at all. Sun Country is one of those, and I've also found planes with non-reclining seats on Frontier airlines. You should probably check in advance with any airline you consider. It's a growing trend.

[Ms. Toad]

99. Frontier had reclining seats the last time I flew it -

but it's been a few years. Sun Country is not in my area (most budget airlines aren't). But thanks for the heads up.

[Earth_First]

162. I'm in the same boat...

If I'm forced to sit in a upright position for extended periods of time, I get extreme neck and shoulder pain.

In a slightly reclined position, it helps; but not comfortable in the least.

I'm with you...

[Skittles]

70. I only recline if the seat behind me is empty

I show respect to the people who sit behind me

[MADem]

101. I think airlines ought to give people enough room so they CAN recline their seats.

I think suffering through a flight sucks.

We're reaching critical mass on the whole "passenger room" aspect of flying. They need to figure out a way to give people the room they need and keep the fuel economy down.

[MineralMan]

105. Yes, well...

That is not the case, and I don't own an airline or a private jet. The longest flights I ever take these days are no more than 4 hours in duration. I can sit uncomfortable for four hours any day of the week, if it means reaching my destination quickly.

In an ideal world, we'd all have first class seating when we fly. We do not live in an ideal world, however. I purchase airline seats by price, since I don't consider my comfort first when buying an airline ticket. Mostly, I fly on Sun Country these days, between MSP and LAX. It's a three hour flight. That airline's seats don't recline at all, and they're rather narrow as well. Tickets on that airline are considerably cheaper than on competing airlines, so that's the airline I normally choose.

It's all about decisions, really. If your comfort for a few hours is a primary concern of yours, there are airlines that will meet your needs. You should choose those airlines. If cost is your primary concern, you may well have to sacrifice a bit of comfort for the duration of the flight. Life's full of decisions to make, and the airlines will tell you the seat pitch and reclining features available on your flight if you ask. If you reserve your ticket early, you can pay extra for an exit row or bulkhead seat, which will give you more space.

I'm not in a position to tell airlines what business model they should use. I can choose from among airlines and seating classes, though. So can you.

[MADem]

121. When I fly it's longer than four hours.

Hell, I'd drive or take a train for that length of flight.

I don't think most DUers use "Sun Country" airlines either. I'll be honest, I've never heard of them before you brought them up. I will say I'll avoid them if they don't have seats that recline, though!

I think it's the job of customers to provide feedback to businesses about how they regard their products and services--in fact, the more people gripe, the more responsive businesses tend to be. They do have a tendency to listen to their customers--especially their former customers.

If you don't pipe up and tell 'em what you want, you could be straddling a bicycle seat on that Sun Country airlines!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-switch/wp/2014/07/14/airbus-wants-to-patent-the-most-uncomfortable-plane-seats-ever/

Zooming out for a wider view only enhances the likeness to an ancient Greek galley. Windows might soon be replaced by oars, or a handlebar-bike pedal combination. On the bright side, perhaps manual labor might lead to modest airfare refunds.

Who am I kidding? Your complimentary in-flight beatings will continue until morale improves.

[MineralMan]

125. Really? I could take a train to California from Minnesota,

certainly. It takes two days. I could drive. That takes three days, unless I'm willing to drive for 14 hours a day. Either way, I'd be sitting in a seat for that time. In three hours of flight time, I get there on my choice of airline. I can fly Sun Country, Delta, American, Frontier, or other airlines. I choose Sun Country for price reasons.

Most major airports offer a range of airlines from which to choose. That you have not heard of Sun Country is irrelevant. No doubt, there are budget-priced airlines where you are, that don't serve my area, too. Since, as I already said, I don't recline my seat, it's a matter of indifference to me whether the seats on Sun Country flights recline. If I choose, I can select one of the first class seats, if one is available, by paying another $100 when I check in, and usually there are first class seats available. They only have eight of those on each flight. I can also select an exit row or bulkhead seat for an additional fee, too, if I choose. I do not choose to do that, because it doesn't matter to me. It's a three hour flight. I don't care enough to pay the additional cost.

Would I fly on a plane with those seats in your photo? I can't say, offhand, and seriously doubt that such seats will ever be installed on any US airline. I might do that, though, for a three hour flight, if the savings were large enough. Ask me again if any airline offers that seating plan.

For a three-hour flight, or even a 5 hour cross-country flight, I do not require a meal, either. Since early arrivals and check-ins at airports are required these days, I can eat before boarding or on arrival, if necessary. There is also food available for purchase at the airport if I wish to eat on the plane. I buy a nice deli sandwich if I want a meal on the plane. When the flight attendant comes by with the drink cart, I can request a beverage. Normally, it's "black coffee, please," and "thanks very much" when it's handed to me. What more would I require for a domestic flight?

I also don't require entertainment in flight, although that is available for a fee as well. I have my Kindle, and I can read, but I prefer gazing out the window at the world almost 7 miles below. If the person next to me wants a conversation, I'm always up for that, too. It's always interesting to meet new people.

It's three or four hours. Then, I'm at my destination, where I'll rent a car or someone will pick me up. Usually a family member picks me up. They wait outside of the airport and I call them on my cell phone after I pick up my checked luggage if I have any. Five minutes after my call, my brother, brother-in-law or my wife pulls up and I'm almost home.

During the flight, though, I'll be sitting in a more or less comfortable seat for the duration of the flight, depending on how much I've been willing to spend. Soon enough, I'll get to my destination airport in any case.

I fail to see the problem, frankly.

[MADem]

128. Great for you!

You're not selling me, though. Nor are you selling most people who like basic--very basic--amenities in flight.

Since you require so little, you should ask for a discount if they'd stuff you in cargo!

How nice that you "fail to see the problem." I guess everyone but you is a picky whiner, then...?



Again, you're doing more to keep me away from "Sun Country" air with your "endorsements" than a bad YELP review might. All the more "non-reclining" seats for you, then!

[MineralMan]

135. Yup, it works for me. I'm speaking for nobody else.

Do as you please.

[Jenoch]

146. It's been a few years since I flew on Sun Country.

The strangest thing that I observed on a Sun Country flight was back when it was still owned by Tom Petters. The in-flight magazine had a Q & A with Petters. One of the questions was asking him what his favorite destination was. His answer was some place in Mexico (I don't recall where). What was strange about it was that it was not a Sun Country destination.

[jberryhill]

109. Not as long as people buy the cheapest ticket

Look at the success of sites like Kayak etc.

People buy the cheapest seats available, squeeze the margins out of the airlines, and then complain about it.

[MADem]

116. I think there's a happy middle available.

I know that if I buy a "last minute" super el-cheapo ticket, I'm probably going to be stuck in a middle seat squeezed from both sides. I expect that and I won't gripe.

The airlines, though, need to start thinking ahead--and they need to put "pax comfort" into the equation which they have not been doing up to this point. As peoples' asses get bigger, the seats get smaller--that makes no damn sense, and it's an invitation to anger. I think the airlines need to get more creative in a design fashion, and maybe experiment with differing materials that are perhaps lighter and will reduce the weight of the craft overall. Will they do this? Who knows. They should put out a call to some of the creative technical colleges and see if the next generation can come up with something!

[MineralMan]

158. Do you? You should suggest that to the airline you own.

In the meantime, I have a flight booked for the end of September to see my parents in California. They'll both be 90, and my wife and I never know when it will be the last visit. But good luck with your idea. Really.

[MADem]

159. You having a bad day, or something?

I don't own an airline. I do provide feedback to the ones I fly, though.

If I ran into an airline that didn't have any reclining seats, I'd let them know that was why I wasn't coming back.

Have a better day, I suppose.

[Liberal_in_LA]

143. me too. i hate their head in my lap

[taught_me_patience]

7. The make-up sex was probably great though n/t.

[jberryhill]

8. Interfering with proper operation of aircraft equipment

Self-help, in the form of disabling the design operation of a piece of equipment attached to the aircraft, is illegal.

So is assault and battery.

The proper recourse for any passenger dispute is to speak to a flight attendant.

[boomer55]

12. Gonna guess the dude will be in trouble. Aren't you supposed to obey the flight attendants?

[jberryhill]

25. Correct

He is not allowed to interfere with the mechanical operation of anything on the plane.

[Blue_Tires]

14. Dumb...

And that dude is a fuckin' asshole for using some "Knee Defender"...

If he's that passive-aggressive, maybe he needs to start upgrading to first class from now on...

[tammywammy]

15. In an article I read earlier

They were in the "premium economy" seats, which have more leg room than regular economy.

[Blue_Tires]

16. Which makes it even worse

although to be fair, airlines have chiseled away most of the legroom that used to come with "premium economy"...

[AngryAmish]

24. If you recline your seat, you are a bag of dicks

Assuming someone is behind you. Once flew economy from Tokyo to ORD, only person in my economy row.

Made a nest with eight pillows and blankets and slept the whole way. Best United flight ever - not having to deal with United "customer service" from the flight attendants.

[KurtNYC]

31. I used to fly that cheapo airline from JFK to LAX

It was all 747s and mostly empty. I would book a seat in the middle of the middle section then sleep across 4 seats. No need to recline anything and a great use of 5+ hours.

[philosslayer]

48. Sorry, I disagree

I fly every week. And I recline my seat. And the person in front of me invariably does too. And its no big deal.

[MADem]

102. I'm with you--I fly a lot, too, and I sleep on the plane. nt

[Ms. Toad]

59. Or have a back condition that cannot tolerate the seat angle

without triggering a long term increase in chronic pain.

Nice broad brush slam.

[joeybee12]

18. I hate when people recline, but guess what...

They're allowed to, so this idiot should know better, it's his seat but not his freaking plane...the woman shouldn't have thrown the water, though...

[alarimer]

19. I don't know why it's so hard to just ask first if you want to recline.

What if the person behind is working on a laptop? If you recline and it causes damage to the computer, maybe you should be liable for it.

I don't agree with what the guy did. Maybe he should have asked the woman in front not to recline because he was working on his computer.

I don't get why people just do whatever the hell they want to regardless of what affect it might have on others.

The obvious thing is for airlines to not allow seats to recline on short flights (say less than 5 hours).

[jberryhill]

27. "What if the person behind is working on a laptop?"

That's certainly worth checking before reclining.

What some laptop users on airplanes don't seem to understand is that when they are using the laptop on the tray table, it's not as if the person in front of them doesn't feel the keystrokes. The tray table is mechanically linked to the seat in front, and I have indeed given fair warning that I was going to recline for the purpose of getting them to stop banging on the keyboard.

I doubt there would be liability for damaging the computer as a consequence of a recline. You were using the seat in the manner it was intended to be used. On those occasions when I do use a laptop onboard, I use a very small screen laptop and make sure that it will clear the seat if the person in front reclines. The laptop user who places their device on the tray table where it can be damaged by a recline is willfully putting that device in harm's way as a consequence of the designed and intended operation of the seat.

[alarimer]

42. I've tried before and it's all but impossible on that tray table at least.

But you can't even use the tray table if someone is reclining. So much for having a beverage, either. Or getting out at all to use the lavatory.

Discussions like these certainly prove what selfish fucking assholes people are.

"I paid for the seat. It reclines. I'll do whatever the hell I want and screw whoever is sitting behind me."

[jberryhill]

43. Meh

I'm six feet tall 220 pounds and made platinum on USAirways 3 out of the last 5 years. I've done routes in coach from Chicago to Hong Kong, Cairo to Bangkok, SF to Seoul and DC to Buenos Aires. I can list many more flying nuisances much higher than whether or not the person in front of me is reclining. It never bothers me one way or the other. If you keep to one smallish carryon with only a few essentials in the event of lost luggage, there will alway be overhead room, leaving the underseat space available to relatively straighten your legs, even with a 31 inch seat pitch.

It's important to vary your seating position from time to time, and I just can't get excited about saying "excuse me" if I have to get up. After all, if you have a window seat, two other people are going to have to get up in order for you to reach the aisle anyway.

There is no airline seat which reclines so far you can't have one of those teeny beverage cups on it. That's no more than a four inch clearance needed. I get pretty thirsty in dry air anyway, so I bring a water bottle that I fill after security and add some Gatorade or other drink mix before boarding. At O'Hare, they even have bottle filling stations for canteens and bottles.

Normal people can work stuff out. If it's a ten hour flight, you are having a beverage for ten hours? Bull. On long flights with meals, the FA's make everyone put the seats up around mealtime anyway, so it's not an issue.

Scrapping kids? There's an amazing invention called earplugs. With those and a blindfold I went half the flight from Johannesburg to NY without really having much sensation of time passing.

I just can't see, having flown a bunch of different carriers for years, and not being a particularly small person, the big deal on seat reclining. In general people get tense when flying and magnify minor crap into the crime of the century.

But, yeah, I'd rather have a kicking kid than some jagoff pounding on a laptop behind me. Because little kids eventually tire out and go to sleep, but dick heads using laptops behind you go for hours.

[Luminous Animal]

72. I'm not getting this reclining thing either. My husband is 6'4" and he's never had an issue

with the person in front of him reclining. And we've travelled all over the world 9-12 hour flights.

[NutmegYankee]

78. It's the puddle jumper planes that are the problem.

If you do a lot of short haul business travel, it's a problem.

[mainer]

93. Agreed. I don't understand the anger.

I'm a frequent flyer, and even when the person in front of me reclines all the way, I'm still able to dine and work on my tray table. Planes don't allow seats to recline more than a few inches. There's a lot of exaggeration going on here.

[MADem]

106. What YOU said!!!

I always use this thing called my LAP when I use a laptop, unless I'm travelling with someone else and we are watching a film on the computer. In that case, I might put the thing up on a tray table, but not always. I'm not pounding the keyboard in any event, so no woes for the person in front of me....

[COLGATE4]

130. Kudos to your last paragraph!

14 or 15 hours to Buenos Aires with some guy composing the great American novel on a laptop behind you is nothing short of a taste of Purgatory.

[jberryhill]

139. Thank goodness ecigs make it bearable

[MADem]

103. It's a LAPtop--use the lap instead!

I've never had a problem using my computer on planes--but I don't use that stupid little cheap "tray table" to balance it on. Stick the thing in your lap, and Bob's yer uncle.

[redqueen]

28. deleted

Wrong place

[philosslayer]

50. Here's my solution....

I recline my seat literally the instant the wheels leave the runway. No one is allowed to have a laptop open upon takeoff. Problem solved

[jberryhill]

62. you can't recline until 10,000 feet

Landing and take off are when problems are most likely to arise.

[philosslayer]

85. You're not supposed to

Doesn't mean you can't.

[flamingdem]

21. I support her!

What right did he have to make her fly with her seat upright?

He should have spent the money on first class since he's a first class douche

[MohRokTah]

23. United Airlines has banned the use of the Knee Defender.

The guy that used it was in the wrong here.

[jberryhill]

26. "A flight attendant asked him to remove the device and he refused"

He was going to get kicked off of that aircraft right there. The woman should have done nothing.

[TDale313]

33. Yeah, she should have just let the flight attendant handle it.

[jberryhill]

34. Some people don't get that FA's are part of the crew

[redqueen]

29. It only reclines an inch or two, why are people so hostile about it?

And could it really damage a laptop? Really?

I've had people recline while I was using mine and it was barely noticeable.

Fucking hell I had no idea people were freaking out over those who want to lean back an extra couple inches.

[regnaD kciN]

35. Actually…

…according to Patrick Smith (AskThePilot.com), because of the poor design of tray tables, it is quite possible to break a laptop by reclining your seat when the person behind you has one on their table.

[Generic Brad]

46. Which is why I travel with an iPad

That way I don't have to worry about someone breaking my laptop.

[Recursion]

74. It's only an inch or two: why are people so intent on reclining?

It's a pretty simple calculus to me: it degrades the experience of the person behind me much more than it improves my experience. It doesn't magically make an airplane seat comfortable. It just cramps the person behind you.

[MADem]

104. If you have a sketchy back, it helps. Rather than demonize the person using the seat as it

was designed, why not call the airline to task for not giving passengers a halfway decent flight experience?

[DesMoinesDem]

36. He should have removed the Knee Defenders and then jammed his knees into the back of her chair

preventing her from reclining. That is what I would have done.

[Exposethefrauds]

37. Been doing it myself for years now and to works every time!

[kelly1mm]

44. I had someone jam their knees into the back of my seat once. Then they

went to the bathroom and I reclined. They were not thrilled when they returned. lol.

[philosslayer]

49. You really keep your knees jammed to the back of the seat for the whole flight?

Sounds... uh... .comfortable. Maybe you should just sit back, recline your seat, and enjoy the flight instead of trying to ruin the flight of the person in front of you.

[Exposethefrauds]

81. With long legs it is not uncomfortable at all why should I have my flight ruined becuse of an

inconsiderate person who wants to lean back their seat all the way in an all ready cramped plane?

Everyone knows the seat spacing is smaller then ever and if you lean your seat all the way back you will jam the person behind you. It is just common sense and courteous to not lean your seat all the back on a full flight.

If no one is behind you then go for it and lean away.

[NuclearDem]

38. And here I thought Knee Defender was arrow protection for adventurers.

[ecstatic]

39. They're both jerks

I never recline my seat because I try to be considerate to other passengers. At the same time, I would never buy a "knee defender" device to stop the person in front of me from reclining. They're both self centered, IMO.

[KamaAina]

41. Who the F bothered to invent that POS?

I figure whoever's behind me is reclining, too, or might as well be.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

54. Someone over 6'2" who is tired of having their knees squeezed...

and their tray table ramed forcibly into their torso.

The inventor is my hero. I wish airline seats did not recline.

[KamaAina]

68. I'm 6' 3 1/2"

and have never had a tray table rammed forcibly into my torso.

What airline do you fly?!

[Algernon Moncrieff]

83. Delta, Southwest, and American - principally

Whatever's cheapest.

[brooklynite]

108. ...and there's your problem

Americans, by and large choose their airline solely on the basis of ticket price, rather than service and comfort. Consequently, the airlines cram as many seats as possible into the plane.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

112. I fly for busines

I get very little choice. And, in any event, like millions of Americans, the choice of airliine is really a function of which airlines choose to serve my airports. The only solution would be flying in first, or on NetJets, since I've flown just about every domestic airline and I've noted little difference in leg room.

[Initech]

56. Someone who probably doesn't want their laptop damaged.

[jberryhill]

63. Are you the guy banging on the laptop behind me?

Laptop users are worse than kicking kids.

But I want to get my hands on the guy who thought touch screen entertainment systems with interactive games were a great thing to put behind headrests.

Pound on that keyboard on the tray table one more time, buddy. Try me.

[Skittles]

71. people are assholes, aren't they? they don't give a fuck who they're annoying

I never recline the seat and always just read a paperback book....and I keep foam earplugs in case of screaming child

[Initech]

122. Remind me not to sit behind you on an airplane.

Usually I just watch a movie or listen to podcasts.

[Recursion]

75. Some of us don't like to inconvenience others

I know that sounds strange, but plenty of people don't like to significantly cramp the people behind us in order to marginally improve our own experience.

[Warren DeMontague]

80. UNAPOLOGETIC SEAT-RECLINER!!!!!!

I'm with you, actually. Oh, it's good to be courteous and aware when you're doing it, and it never hurts to ask, but putting the seat back is part of what they're designed to do. Generally the person in front of me puts theirs back, also.

I hate flying, in part because of these insipid petty built-in psychodramas (ye olde battle for the overhead bin space is another one) which are a direct result of the airlines shoehorning way too fucking many people into the planes.

Flying sucks these days, period.

[jberryhill]

107. It all started when they banned smoking

People would be a lot less tense if they'd just hand out cigarettes.

[Warren DeMontague]

140. Yeah, cigarettes dipped in fentanyl.

Then, maybe.

[Ilsa]

152. Except for the people having asthma attacks

from second-hand smoke.

I hated flying with smokers decades ago. Made my clothes stink.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

110. Now that airline service...

...is as much of an oxymoron as military intelligence, flying is chore, an unpleasant one.

I've been flying 2 - 4 flights a week 17 - 40 weeks out of a year for 12 years. As passenger service has been circling the bowl here are some changes I've noticed:
- Any food service on flights departing after ~ 8:30 PM beyond Pringles and peanuts is gone.
- All checked bags are charged a fee leading to minimal overheard space
- Meal service is mostly gone:

In 2004 in first class, a flight scheduled for 80 minutes included a breakfast of sausages, an omelet, fruit, juice, and free alcohol.
Today in first class, a flight scheduled for 2 hours includes a banana or snack bar and free alcohol.

- Some airlines offer blankets and pillows only in first class.
- "Discount" airlines now feature such money saving aspects as a fee ($3) to choose a seat when you buy the ticket and a fee ($20 at purchase, $30 at check-in and $50 at the gate) for a carry-on bigger than a briefcase.
- All airlines that I've flown limit you to 1 standard 24" carry-on and 1 briefcase sized carry-on.
- Non-stop flights are rare. If you don't depart from or end in one of your airline's hub cities, you'll be stopping to change planes.
- Many airlines are moving to paid in-flight entertainment or simply not offering entertainment at all.

Passengers are being slowly conditioned to accept paying the same or more money for a service that offers the same level of conveniences as a bus ride.

Delta is the only one of the five largest airlines in the United States, and one of only two in the top 9 (the other being JetBlue), whose non-pilot staff is entirely non-union.

[jberryhill]

113. "paid in-flight entertainment"

The weight of the cables, screens, etc. isn't justified anymore due to the preponderance of passengers having tablets or smartphones to watch whatever they want on their device anyway.

I find the most welcome feature these days to be a USB power socket.

The systems that really suck are the touch screens installed in the backs of the headrests. Some joker playing tetris on my skull is just what I need.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

115. "paid in-flight entertainment"

- $5-8 for a 90 minute to 2 hour movie (interrupted for warnings about seat belts, destination weather and beautiful sunsets)
- $4 for 30 minutes of restricted internet (netflix won't work but you can buy a 90 minute gogo pass for $12.95 and then pay an extra $4 to watch one of their movies or $1 for a TV show.

USB power would be great.

[SheilaT]

119. My inflight entertainment is a book.

Or embroidery, now that I can once again bring along embroidery scissors.

[shanti]

124. i usually bring a small knitting project

nobody's ever questioned my knitting needles. i mostly fly SW, and it's then a necessity to find an aisle seat for my elbows.

[Chathamization]

114. If you use public transportation a lot you often deal with much worse situations

I’d be fine with airlines fixing the seats in place, but as long as they allow them to recline I’m fine with people not using their laptops for a couple of hours. It seems solipsistic to say that everyone needs to ignore the actual rules and follow your own personal rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

141. Yeah, exactly. If you dont want people to recline, dont let ANY seats do it.

Its not really fair when the guy in front reclines and the jackhole behind you is mr knee defender.

[Wella]

45. The "knee defender" is a violation of the contract that the woman had with United

She paid for a seat with extra legroom that reclined. No other passenger should be allowed to infringe on what someone has paid for. The man should have been escorted off the plane if he refused to comply with the flight attendant's orders. Security should have been called if necessary. If the plane was already in flight, the man should have had the Knee Defender taken from him by security.

The woman should not have thrown water on the man, although I understand her frustration with a man unwilling to follow the rules.

[ManiacJoe]

47. What makes you think individual planes have "security" on board?

[Wella]

51. If they don't they should. It is well known that air marshals fly on board

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Air_Marshal_Service

[ManiacJoe]

148. The percentage of flights covered is in the single digits.

[NutmegYankee]

76. What about the rights of the guy behind?

I've been on flights where the person in front couldn't fully recline because my knees were firmly buried into the backside of the seat. I've also been on flights where I couldn't use the tray table because it wouldn't be able to get past my torso to fold down. I paid for a tray table, but can't use it due to the recline.

[MannyGoldstein]

52. I just flew United

And the extra legroom in economy was awesome. I could actually do work on my laptop.

Also flew Air Alaska, they had more room in economy, too.

Hopefully a trend!

That knee defender device sounds utterly obnoxious.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

53. They just haven't realized they can charge passengers $25 for use of a knee-defender

Once they do, I'll be asking my employer to expense them

[Phentex]

100. If you wish to recline, swipe your credit card...

those using a tray table will be charged $2.00, restroom charges are based on time needed in the toilet area, and should you need to use your seat as a floatation device, your card will be automatically billed...

[Cha]

58. Wow.. how legal are they? to stop someone from reclinging in front? smh

[jberryhill]

64. illegal

It is against FAA regulations for a passenger to interfere with the mechanical function of any part of the aircraft.

[Cha]

65. I would think so.. and yet they're selling them. oh boy.

[jberryhill]

66. to be clear

It is not illegal to make or sell one.

It is illegal to use one on a US carrier or a foreign carrier with a US itinerary.

[Cha]

67. Right. :) Thanks

[NutmegYankee]

77. The FAA does not ban the device.

[jberryhill]

84. Its use aboard aircraft in US jurisdiction is

The FAA is not in the business of "banning devices".

You can take a socket wrench aboard an aircraft too.

What you can't do is start removing bolts from the aircraft.

[NutmegYankee]

149. *ahem*

"The Federal Aviation Administration leaves it up to individual airlines to set rules about the device."

[dsc]

60. Now I know I have a dirty mind

I had no idea what a knee defender was but my very first thought was that it was something to do with a mile high club activity.

[A Little Weird]

61. The real villain

The real villains are the airlines who continue to stuff more and more people into increasingly ridiculous spaces. I once enjoyed flying but it has become something I dread.

[Recursion]

73. If you recline your seat on an airplane you are a horrible person

There's no way around that. We need more Knee Defenders.

[Liberal_in_LA]

144. yes

[Art_from_Ark]

160. I guess I'm a "horrible" person then

One of the most uncomfortable flights I ever had was when I was stuck in a non-reclinable seat for 10+ hours from Japan to Houston. It's difficult and uncomfortable for me to even ride the bus 1 1/2 hours to Tokyo without reclining. Really, some of us *need* to recline when taking certain types of public transportation. That's what the reclining seats are FOR.

[Warren DeMontague]

79. Holy shit. You think porn, peta, circumcision, olive garden or pit bulls are bad?

Holy fuck, man.. This one? You FOOL. You will destroy us ALL!!!!!!!



Dontsayididntwarnya

[Coventina]

126. Did you hear about the circumcised pit bull who reclined his seat while reading porn and eating his

Olive Garden take-out on the plane?

PETA was protesting for his right to do so....

[KurtNYC]

131. I had no idea it was one of those subjects

Note to self: it is one of those subjects.

[Coventina]

132. Yup. I've seen this flame-war before....

But, that's no reflection on you!

It was a good news story!

And, none of us are here 24/7 and see every over-the-top flame war.



If you recline you're HITLER!!!!

[tammywammy]

136. Wait until it's about children flying...

[Warren DeMontague]

142. HEh heh

In the words of The Duke, "That'll learn ya."

[trumad]

82. I've flown thousands of miles in the last decade...

I'd say it's around 90/10....90 percent do not recline, 10 percent do.

Those who do are either ignorant at what it does to the folks behind them ---or really don't give a shit.

I never recline because I know how it feels when it is done to me. I almost lost a laptop screen when the person in front of me reclined suddenly. You could hear my laptop crunch.

It's a huge douche move in MHO.
...

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

87. ^^^ Exactly

Same experience.

[jberryhill]

95. so you think it's okay to type on the tray table?

People using laptops are more obnoxious than kicking kids.

That table you are tapping on is connected to the seat in front of you.

[trumad]

133. Oh fuck that's funny....

Nobody can feel me typing on my Mac.

What you think I have an old Underwood?

[jberryhill]

137. You'd think some people did, yeah

Some people emphasize their writing by banging on the keyboard.

[tammywammy]

129. I don't usually recline either.

Except my long haul to Sydney and back. Everyone was reclined except during meals. It was still a PITA when you tried to get out of your seat/row. I figure when you book coach you know what you've signed up for.

[cleanhippie]

145. To use the seat in the manner for which it was designed is a "douche move"?

Methinks thou doth protest too much.

And 90% of pax DONT recline? Yeah, right.

[trumad]

150. yep...

Like I said... I've flown thousands of miles in the last several years. Close to a million.

Its very rare that someone reclines their seat...very rare. Why...because most know that it's courteous not to.

Sure the seat is designed to recline...that was when airlines actually had decent leg room. The leg room has decreased but the seats still recline.

[cleanhippie]

154. I think you are completely wrong.

Your anecdotal evidence is hardly convincing. I've observed the opposite.

[trumad]

156. a million miles.

Don't tell me...you flew that much too.

[cleanhippie]

157. Am I supposed to be impressed?

I'm not.

I've observed the opposite than you. Show me some data and you might have a case.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

86. My personal opinion

I find airline seats very uncomfortable. They completely lack any lumbar support and are usually not sufficiently upright for me. Reclining said seat makes it even more uncomfortable.

My personal favorite ( ) passenger behavior is the person who reclines the aisle seat as soon as they board. This makes it more difficult for anyone to enter the row behind. An attendant will always have them return it to upright. As soon as possible in the air they recline the seat again. Generally, within few minutes, then they get up and head to rest room, of course leaving the seat reclined. IMHO, many who recline their seats do so because it is the only control they have; if I have only one button, I have to use it.

I have had a laptop almost snapped in half twice by recliners who favor what I call the "snap" recline.

The two morons who made the news need to relax and go join the mile high club. They deserve each other.

[IDemo]

91. I haven't flown since the 90's

Barring my arms sprouting feathers, it's highly unlikely that will change.

[stevenleser]

97. I go through periods where I fly a fair amount and my solution is to ask the person in back of me

"Hey, I may recline a little bit in a few minutes. Is that OK and can you tell me if it becomes an issue"

It's rare that this doesn't illicit a smile and some friendly conversation in addition to warding off any potential hard feelings and problems.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

111. You're a thoughtful person

I've encountered about 4 others who've done the same over the last 12 years.

bravo

[Baitball Blogger]

117. Airline flights might think about offering Lorazapam Cocktails before take-off.

Mellow out people!

[SheilaT]

120. It's also worth knowing that if you can plan

far enough in advance, you can get a relatively cheap first class ticket. Won't be as cheap as the cheapest coach one, but I've done it more than once. In fact, I'm taking a flight in a few days that I booked first class at a rate I was willing to pay.

[Coventina]

123. I think air travel should be banned.

100+ human beings were never meant to be crammed into a metal tube for hours at a time.

Repeated incidents I have personally experienced while flying, reported incidents, and this thread itself demonstrates this.

Clearly, as a species, many if not most of us are unable to handle this mode of travel.

(I think I'm being sarcastic, maybe).

[KurtNYC]

134. I think for many air travelers, a plane is the only form of mass transit they use.

The idea of sharing space with others is foreign to them. Some people give themselves permission to behave selfishly. It wasn't always like this. When I was 4YO I was on a plane that caught fire on takeoff. I thought I was going to be crushed in the panic to get out. The plane looped back, landed and they foamed it while we went down the shoots.

My father was not on board. A large man picked me up and slid down the shoot with me on his lap. People were screaming until the plane landed but there was no stampede even in those conditions. People were so scared and freaked out that they were barfing between the plane and the recovery vehicle but they were careful not to barf on each other (or me).

[jberryhill]

138. Oh, those annoying surviving passengers who bleed on you

What makes them think they can do that?

[Iron Man]

127. Those Knee Defenders are great.

[Marr]

151. What happens when an unstoppable jerk meets an unmoveable prick?

But seriously, I actually wouldn't fault the water thrower. What an incredible asshole the seat lock guy is.

[Warren DeMontague]

161. You have bit into the crux of the biscuit there, socrates

Yes indeed

[arcane1]

153. What's the point of having recliners if they don't get used?

This guy sounds like a real asshole. Something about air travel really affects those "it's all about ME!" people.

[nilesobek]

163. I've never been on a plane. Terra Firma.

[LloydS of New London]

164. Knee Defender

The worst superhero ever!